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Author Topic: Jurisdictions and celebration of Vespers and/or Orthros  (Read 1958 times) Average Rating: 0
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scamandrius
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« on: August 09, 2009, 10:48:35 PM »

I may be moving soon and I was looking for Orthodox churches in the area.  My two main choices are an OCA church and a GOA church.  Visiting each of their websites, I noticed that the OCA church celebrates Vespers on Saturday and Divine Liturgy on Sunday with no Orthros.  The GOA church celebrates only Orthros before Divine Liturgy with no Vespers the day before.

Do the Russian churches typically not celebrate Orthros and do GOA churches typically not celebrate Vespers?  I'd be disappointed either way. I'm very fortunate that my current church offers the full range of services for Sundays (It's an Antiochian parish) and there are no churches nearby which do the same.
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2009, 10:58:02 PM »

It depends entirely on the parish. Some parishes offer both, some offer one, not the other.

I can relate to your dissapointment though, as I just moved from an area of the country that offered a plethora of services to an area that is scarce in the number of services.
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2009, 11:00:49 PM »

I can relate to your dissapointment though, as I just moved from an area of the country that offered a plethora of services to an area that is scarce in the number of services.

But it is still better than no services!
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2009, 11:03:50 PM »

It's been my (limited) experience that if an OCA church just has vespers (as opposed to the all-night vigil) then there's no orthros/matins prior to liturgy on Sunday.  My own parish just does the Third Hour before DL on Sundays.  The two local GOA churches have no Vespers but do have Orthros on Sundays.  One of the local Antiochian parishes (St. Mary's in Hunt Valley, MD) does both Vespers and Orthros.
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2009, 11:49:36 PM »

The GOA parish I attend sometimes has Vespers on Saturday evening and then Orthros and Liturgy on Sunday. The same is true for the Antiochian parishes across the state line. Therefore, I would say it depends on the parish as much as it does on the jurisdiction.
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 12:25:04 AM »

The OCA mission my wife and I go to has Vespers every Saturday (45-50 min) and Matins (2 hours) before Divine Liturgy (1hr35-40min) every Sunday. The exception is when we have a Vigil on Saturday (2hr30mins). Those Sundays we have Third and Ninth hour (30min) before Divine Liturgy. This isn't the norm for OCA parishes, but there are a few OCA parishes like ours.

ROCOR usually has long Vigils every Saturday and Divine Liturgy even longer (from what I understand). Perhaps someone that attends a ROCOR parish could comment on that.

BTW, Vigils are a combo of Vespers and Matins in the OCA.

You might consider attending the OCA for Vespers and the GOA for Orthros and Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2009, 12:33:25 AM »

My particular Serbian church has Vespers on Saturday nights for about 45 minutes, and then Matins for about an hour before the liturgy every Sunday.  People are expected to come for confession during Vespers.
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 11:01:14 AM »

It's been my (limited) experience that if an OCA church just has vespers (as opposed to the all-night vigil) then there's no orthros/matins prior to liturgy on Sunday. 

This must be a local custom, as my experience is that OCA churches have Vespers and Orthros, as a general rule. Our parish does.
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 11:14:31 AM »

I may be moving soon and I was looking for Orthodox churches in the area.  My two main choices are an OCA church and a GOA church.  Visiting each of their websites, I noticed that the OCA church celebrates Vespers on Saturday and Divine Liturgy on Sunday with no Orthros.  The GOA church celebrates only Orthros before Divine Liturgy with no Vespers the day before.

Do the Russian churches typically not celebrate Orthros and do GOA churches typically not celebrate Vespers?  I'd be disappointed either way. I'm very fortunate that my current church offers the full range of services for Sundays (It's an Antiochian parish) and there are no churches nearby which do the same.

It's my experience that OCA parishes (here, anyway) have Great Vespers on Saturday evenings and Matins before Liturgy on Sundays. I have, however, been to a number of parishes that did celebrate Matins but did not list it on their sites or signs, and keep in mind that your OCA parish may celebrate Vigil (Great Vespers followed by Matins) on Saturdays, and not just Great Vespers (although I believe this is more common in the ROCOR than the OCA).

IOW, don't take the list as authoritative. Ask somebody.

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Michael L
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2009, 11:24:59 AM »

The OCA mission my wife and I go to has Vespers every Saturday (45-50 min) and Matins (2 hours) before Divine Liturgy (1hr35-40min) every Sunday. The exception is when we have a Vigil on Saturday (2hr30mins). Those Sundays we have Third and Ninth hour (30min) before Divine Liturgy. This isn't the norm for OCA parishes, but there are a few OCA parishes like ours.

ROCOR usually has long Vigils every Saturday and Divine Liturgy even longer (from what I understand). Perhaps someone that attends a ROCOR parish could comment on that.

BTW, Vigils are a combo of Vespers and Matins in the OCA.

You might consider attending the OCA for Vespers and the GOA for Orthros and Divine Liturgy.

Indeed, the ROCOR parish I attend, and I assume the majority of ROCOR parishes in general have a Vigil service on Saturday that includes Vespers/Matins/1st Hour. 3rd hour is read prior to the divine liturgy on Sunday morning. Attendance at Vespers and confession is generally required to receive communion on Sunday in ROCOR parishes

I am surprised that many OCA parishes do not follow the same structure being of the Great Russian tradition like ROCOR.

FYI

Quote
What is a "Vigil?"

In the Orthodox Church, the new day, and the new day's worship begins with the setting of the sun, just as it did in the Temple in Jerusalem. A "Vigil" combines several services: Vespers; Matins; and the First Hour.

The first service of the day is Vespers. Vespers recalls and represents the events of the Old Testament. During this service, we give thanks to God for the day that has ended, and ask His protection through the night. The darkness that follows the setting sun reminds us of the darkness of death, the result of our sins; our expulsion from Paradise; our need to repent and to pray for salvation; and the hope we have in the promise of God for a Savior, Who is our Lord Jesus Christ, come to bring us Light, and Life.

Vespers is followed by the service of Matins. Matins recalls and represents the New Testament - the appearance of Christ in the world for our salvation; His life, death, and His glorious Resurrection. The Six Psalms speak of our weak and sinful condition. We pray, and we sing hymns in honor of the saint or event being remembered on the day. We hear the proclamation of the Gospel of the Risen Lord Jesus, and venerate Him through the Scriptures. We listen to the canon, with its remembrance of the faithful of the Old testament period, and the events of our salvation, the life and history of the Church, and a celebration of our Lord, His most holy Mother, and the event or saint being celebrated for our instruction and our rejoicing.

Following Matins is the First Hour. The First Hour traditionally is read one hour after sunrise; but in the Russian tradition, it follows on the evening before, after Matins. The rising of the sun reminds us of our Lord Jesus Christ, risen from the dead. The light of the new day reminds us of the Lord, the Light of the World. We give thanks to God for the hope of a new day, and ask His blessing, that we might be faithful in loving and serving and worshiping Him in the day to come.

http://members.cox.net/holy_archangels/vigil.html
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 11:45:25 AM »

Do the Russian churches typically not celebrate Orthros and do GOA churches typically not celebrate Vespers?

I have never been to a GOA parish that did not do Orthros before the Divine Liturgy on Sundays. Most do Orthros before weekday/festal Liturgies as well. Great Vespers is rare, but does occur.

Conversely, I have only been to one OCA parish that did Orthros on Sunday morning (but never before a weekday/festal Liturgy). Most, including those around here and in my previous homes of Indiana, Michigan and S. Florida, just do Great Vespers on Saturday night and read the 3rd hour on Sunday morning. Others do Orthros as part of the mini-Vigil on Saturday night, but that's been quite rare in my experience.
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2009, 12:05:59 PM »

The OCA mission my wife and I go to has Vespers every Saturday (45-50 min) and Matins (2 hours) before Divine Liturgy (1hr35-40min) every Sunday. The exception is when we have a Vigil on Saturday (2hr30mins). Those Sundays we have Third and Ninth hour (30min) before Divine Liturgy. This isn't the norm for OCA parishes, but there are a few OCA parishes like ours.

ROCOR usually has long Vigils every Saturday and Divine Liturgy even longer (from what I understand). Perhaps someone that attends a ROCOR parish could comment on that.

BTW, Vigils are a combo of Vespers and Matins in the OCA.

You might consider attending the OCA for Vespers and the GOA for Orthros and Divine Liturgy.

Indeed, the ROCOR parish I attend, and I assume the majority of ROCOR parishes in general have a Vigil service on Saturday that includes Vespers/Matins/1st Hour. 3rd hour is read prior to the divine liturgy on Sunday morning. Attendance at Vespers and confession is generally required to receive communion on Sunday in ROCOR parishes

I am surprised that many OCA parishes do not follow the same structure being of the Great Russian tradition like ROCOR.



The OCA, besides the Great Russian/Moscow tradition has a lot of others.  One local parish here is mostly Greeks and converts (or was when it got off the ground, I haven't been there in a couple years). And even in a Great Russian center like Holy Trinity Cathedral, the bishop has introduced Greek, Romanian, etc. customs.
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2009, 12:16:10 PM »

I guess your right, the OCA has large rusyn population out East and a couple of ethnic deaneries. I just thought by and large they followed the Great Russian tradition, perhaps this is no longer the case, and the OCA is becoming more of a pan-Orthodox jurisdiction with regard to local tradition.
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2009, 02:07:59 PM »

The OCA mission my wife and I go to has Vespers every Saturday (45-50 min) and Matins (2 hours) before Divine Liturgy (1hr35-40min) every Sunday. The exception is when we have a Vigil on Saturday (2hr30mins). Those Sundays we have Third and Ninth hour (30min) before Divine Liturgy. This isn't the norm for OCA parishes, but there are a few OCA parishes like ours.

ROCOR usually has long Vigils every Saturday and Divine Liturgy even longer (from what I understand). Perhaps someone that attends a ROCOR parish could comment on that.

BTW, Vigils are a combo of Vespers and Matins in the OCA.

You might consider attending the OCA for Vespers and the GOA for Orthros and Divine Liturgy.


The norm for the OCA parish would be Vigil on Saturday evening.  Too bad many many many of them don't follow the norm.  And vigil is hours matins hours vespers hours I believe.  There is a retired OCA bishop who proposed a call for the return to Vigil in his OCA diocese and put one together that would last about 1hr 30min to 1hr 45min in length for parish use.  A search on google should be able to find this in a fastidious manner.
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2009, 02:21:11 PM »


The norm for the OCA parish would be Vigil on Saturday evening.  Too bad many many many of them don't follow the norm.  And vigil is hours matins hours vespers hours I believe.  There is a retired OCA bishop who proposed a call for the return to Vigil in his OCA diocese and put one together that would last about 1hr 30min to 1hr 45min in length for parish use.  A search on google should be able to find this in a fastidious manner.

I think you're referring to Bishop TIKHON's Notes on the All-Night Vigil (pdf download).
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2009, 04:02:48 PM »

I've encountered a number of OCA parishes that do Vespers the night before and the First or Third Hour before liturgy rather than Matins.
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