Author Topic: Masons and Orthodoxy  (Read 8434 times)

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Offline PhosZoe

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Masons and Orthodoxy
« on: November 14, 2003, 11:31:25 AM »
There is a gentleman (convert) who is new to my parish, I noticed he was wearing a Mason ring.

Isn't a Masonic membership discouraged by the Orthodox church?




Offline The young fogey

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2003, 11:38:37 AM »
Quote
Isn't a Masonic membership discouraged by the Orthodox church?

To his credit, according to Bishop Kallistos (Ware), yes, and more than 'discouraged': in The Orthodox Church in a footnote he wrote that Orthodox are forbidden from becoming Masons and that the penalty is excommunication.
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Offline Innocent

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2003, 11:49:22 AM »
I agree with Serge. Here is a response from Fr. Matusiak. While Fr. Matusiak usually gives very long answers to questions this one was very short and to the point. I believe if you search of all the Orthodox web sites you will find that they all give almost the same answer on Masonry.

Quote
It is forbidden for an Orthodox Christian to be a member of the Masonic Fraternity because many of its teachings stand in direct conflict with those of Orthodox Christianity.

Offline PhosZoe

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2003, 12:00:55 PM »
That's what I thought! Innocent, what source did you find that quote?

Serge, I have a copies of "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware (1st printing and a recent edition) I'll go hunting around for it!

Thanks for the affirmation!

Offline Innocent

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2003, 12:07:31 PM »
Its from submitted questions to Fr John Matusiak. The OCA keeps an archive of them.


Orthodox FAQ

That's what I thought! Innocent, what source did you find that quote?

Serge, I have a copies of "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware (1st printing and a recent edition) I'll go hunting around for it!

Thanks for the affirmation!

Offline SamB

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2003, 04:54:05 PM »
In the nearest Antiochian parish, I noticed during Vespers one of the members of the choir wearing a conspicuous necklace with the Masonic insignia of a compass and 'G'.  I was befuddled to say the least.

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Offline Elisha

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2003, 05:56:07 PM »
In the nearest Antiochian parish, I noticed during Vespers one of the members of the choir wearing a conspicuous necklace with the Masonic insignia of a compass and 'G'.  I was befuddled to say the least.

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I'm sure that there are many (Orthodox) who are just ignorant about it

Offline Mexican

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2003, 11:31:39 PM »
Freemasonry follows traditions that mix rationalism, naturalism, and Pagan mysticism, but they trace their origin in the Jewish qabala, which also originated most of the heretical sects of the first years of Christemndom.

As a summary, Freemasonry globalizes all what has been rejected in Christianity and declared enemy of the Church, seeking political domination, the destruction of nations and the Church. Therefore it is not permissible, to be a member of any massonic lodge.


Offline Linus7

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2003, 04:19:37 PM »
Most Masons are just guys who like to hang out at the lodge and shoot the bull. They memorize all that "Solomon's Temple" stuff in order to get in but don't really read much significance into it.

I think only the super-involved, high-ranking Masons make a religion out of it.

I'm not trying to justify or excuse Freemasonry itself, just most of its members!

I know what I am talking about because I was, at one time (not now), a Mason myself. I joined back when I lived in Texas to please my Dad and some friends who were pressuring me. To me it was just a social club. I won't be involved in it now, and I think it is a bad idea, but most of the guys don't have a clue about any religious problems with it.
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Offline Karamazov

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2003, 06:44:41 PM »
Most Masons are just guys who like to hang out at the lodge and shoot the bull. They memorize all that "Solomon's Temple" stuff in order to get in but don't really read much significance into it.

I think only the super-involved, high-ranking Masons make a religion out of it.

I'm not trying to justify or excuse Freemasonry itself, just most of its members!

I know what I am talking about because I was, at one time (not now), a Mason myself. I joined back when I lived in Texas to please my Dad and some friends who were pressuring me. To me it was just a social club. I won't be involved in it now, and I think it is a bad idea, but most of the guys don't have a clue about any religious problems with it.
:P

You've made a good point, Linus.  Most people don't know what Freemasonry is really about when they join, as well as many freemasonry "lifers." They think that freemasonry is about becoming a shriner, acting silly to entertain kids, or to perform charitable work.  This lack of knowledge is a serious problem, though.

Shriners do charitable work for recognition, and to deflect interest in what they're really about.  How do people become freemasons?  "Ask one to be one."  There is a rule that freemasons are not allowed to solicit members; rather you must approach a freemason and express interest in joining.  When you ask what they're about, you'll get all sorts of vague platitudes and references about being like a club, doing charitable work, yadda.  The prospective candidate knows these things, and also suspects there is something more which is untold.  After all, they are known as a "secret society."  My question, then, is why would somebody wish to join a "fraternal organization" that is not totally forthcoming in what they're all about?  Why join an organization that is unwilling to reveal to you its secrets until you join, and even then after a great many years of indoctrination and committment?  

The answer?  Probably because the prospective candidate is interested in social and financial advancement at the expense of  the hard work and superior qualifications of others.  Or maybe, a burning desire to know those secrets...

Joining freemasonry makes me think about how the Evil One operates in our lives - he doesn't unless we invite and admit him into our lives.  Similarly, freemasons can't influence our lives unless we desire them to, and then we admit them into our lives.  Ever wonder why they aren't allowed to solicit membership?  Ever wonder why they say "Ask one to be one?"

Pursuing freemasonry is like entertaining negative logismoi, which is spiritually dangerous, IMHO.

PS. glad you've quit the freemasons, Linus!

Offline Innocent

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2003, 07:35:37 PM »
I think a problem is that Orthodoxy does not have an organization to counter act the desire to to belong to a fraternal order. The RCC has the Knights of Columbus but we have nothing similar. My father belonged to the KoC and it was a great organization. They did charity works, fund raisers for churches, and got together for socializing. I think the statement by Linus7 was true. Most masons are not knowledgeable about the religious aspects of their organization and an Orthodox fraternal order would help them have the option to be in a real fraternal order. Just my opinion.

Offline Karamazov

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2003, 08:53:06 PM »
I agree,         .  Something along the lines of the Antiochan's "The Order of St. Igtatius of Antioch," but more widespread.

Offline Innocent

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2003, 12:21:58 PM »
While the Order of Saint Ignatius is a wonderful organization it really is not a fraternal order like KoC is. It is more in line with organizations such as Fellowship of Orthodox Stewards (FOS), and Fellowship of Orthodox Christians in America (FOCA). No doubt these are great organizations that do much good but they really are not Fraternal Orders. They are really Charity organizations first and foremost and do not keep lodges and have monthly/weekly meetings. They also tend to be jurisdtictional. FOS and FOCA are mostly (not all) OCA and Saint Ignatius is Antiochian. While you can join the Order of Saint Ignatius if your in another jursdiction you are not a full member only a  "Associate Membership".

Like I said the above Charities are wonderful and serve a noble task. We still have a need for a fraternal order opened to all Orthodox regardless of nation Church. That is of course just my opinion.

I agree,         .  Something along the lines of the Antiochan's "The Order of St. Igtatius of Antioch," but more widespread.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2003, 09:42:22 PM by Innocent »

Offline Linus7

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2003, 09:32:26 PM »
Maybe we could start our own fraternal organization and call it Karamazov's Cossacks.  ;D

Sounds good to me!

BTW, I joined the Masons way back before I became Orthodox. I'm not a member now.
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Offline Justinianus

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2003, 10:40:46 AM »
Maybe we could start our own fraternal organization and call it Karamazov's Cossacks.  ;D

Sounds good to me!


I like it too!  ;D
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Offline Karamazov

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2003, 04:33:54 PM »
Karamazov's Cassocks?

How about "Bulba's Boys?" :D
« Last Edit: November 17, 2003, 04:34:21 PM by a Karamazov... »

Offline Linus7

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2003, 10:17:55 PM »
Karamazov's Cassocks?

How about "Bulba's Boys?" :D

LOL.  ;D

Well done!

Cossacks in Cassocks!

To be one of "Bulba's Boys" would we need to have scalplocks and long Taras Bulba moustaches?
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
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Offline Karamazov

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2003, 08:54:58 AM »
Yes, yes, and yes!  Bandura lessons, anyone?

Offline KO63AP

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2003, 10:03:42 AM »
Yes, yes, and yes!  Bandura lessons, anyone?

Well, one might need to secure the services of a kobzar.  8)
Ті, що сіють у сльозах, пожнуть у радосÑ

Offline Linus7

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2003, 11:32:29 AM »
Here we are now:
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline Karamazov

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2003, 02:16:29 PM »
FYI, I'm the handsome dude on the left.  Mr. OCnet eat your heart out! ;)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2003, 02:17:25 PM by a Karamazov... »

Offline KO63AP

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2003, 07:34:53 PM »
FYI, I'm the handsome dude on the left.  Mr. OCnet eat your heart out! ;)

Fine.  BTW, how are you bandura skills?  8) [...he says smiling while gazing at his -¿-¦-¦-ç-¦-+-¦-û-¦-ü-î-¦-¦ -Æ’-Ç-¦-+-û-Ã…]
Ті, що сіють у сльозах, пожнуть у радосÑ

Offline Karamazov

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2003, 08:06:52 PM »
Okay, you got me...can't play bandura.  But, my sister-in-law can!  

BTW, how can I post using Cyrillic?

Offline PhosZoe

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2003, 04:46:10 PM »
My husband plays tambura, can he play too? I'll improvise a kolo.


Offline Keble

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2003, 04:56:22 PM »

Fine.  BTW, how are you bandura skills?  8) [...he says smiling while gazing at his -¿-¦-¦-ç-¦-+-¦-û-¦-ü-î-¦-¦ -Æ’-Ç-¦-+-û-Ã…]

I can't play the bandura, but I can sing about playing it.  8)

Offline Karamazov

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2003, 05:25:39 PM »
The leader of Karamazov's Cossacks in Cassocks: ;)

Offline Karamazov

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2003, 05:50:53 PM »
My husband plays tambura, can he play too? I'll improvise a kolo.



If the "tambura" is anything like a cross between the bandura (a noble instrument, I might add) and a tambourine, the answer is NO!!!! ;)

Offline PhosZoe

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2003, 03:57:32 PM »
My husband plays tambura, can he play too? I'll improvise a kolo.



If the "tambura" is anything like a cross between the bandura (a noble instrument, I might add) and a tambourine, the answer is NO!!!! ;)


FAR FAR FAR FROM IT! Here's a link/ http://www.tamburitzans.duq.edu/

Here's another link http://marvin.ecc.cc.mo.us/~almir/pjesme/sevdah/tambura.htm

Tambura (Tamburitza) is a family of eastern european folk instruments. My huband plays a brach (pr. Br-atch) and Prima (preema)

And another link... This is the person who made my husbands brach.  
http://www.indiana.edu/~tradarts/programs/masterartist_opacich.html

No tambourine for you!  :P





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Offline Linus7

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2003, 01:00:23 AM »
Nice photos.

That last one makes me hungry.

I think it is splendid how we forgot the Masons and moved on to the Cossacks.

 8)
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
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Offline KO63AP

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2003, 11:47:27 AM »

I think it is splendid how we forgot the Masons and moved on to the Cossacks.

OK, back on topic, sort of...

Can anyone explain how the Masonic "all-seeing eye" (an eye in a triangle, just look at the back of a US one dollar note) came to be found in many Greek Orthodox churches, supposedly as a Trinitarian representation?
Ті, що сіють у сльозах, пожнуть у радосÑ

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2003, 12:20:09 PM »

I think it is splendid how we forgot the Masons and moved on to the Cossacks.

OK, back on topic, sort of...

Can anyone explain how the Masonic "all-seeing eye" (an eye in a triangle, just look at the back of a US one dollar note) came to be found in many Greek Orthodox churches, supposedly as a Trinitarian representation?

Because there are so many Masons in the GOA (and the AOCA as well)? ???  Don't forget that Ecumenical Patriarch Meletios Metataxis (sp?) was a notorious Mason himself.

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Offline Linus7

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2003, 12:25:08 PM »

I think it is splendid how we forgot the Masons and moved on to the Cossacks.

OK, back on topic, sort of...

Can anyone explain how the Masonic "all-seeing eye" (an eye in a triangle, just look at the back of a US one dollar note) came to be found in many Greek Orthodox churches, supposedly as a Trinitarian representation?

The mystery is how it came to be a Masonic symbol. The "all-seeing eye" is an ancient Christian symbol.

Certainly the Masons borrowed it, just as they borrowed most of their imagery from the Old Testament.

Here is a web site that lists many of the ancient Christian symbols.
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline SamB

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2003, 12:53:39 PM »
At one time, when I was admiring the enthralling architecture of the Montreal cathedral (R.C.), I targeted my gaze to the very top of the dome, and I could almost swear I could make out the "all-seeing-eye" within a triangle.  All very interesting.

Is there perhaps any Christian origin to the "all-seeing eye" embedded in the palm of a hand?

Linus, thanks for the link.  That is a page I will certainly save for the hard disk.

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Offline Mexican

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2003, 09:21:20 PM »
Can anyone explain how the Masonic "all-seeing eye" (an eye in a triangle, just look at the back of a US one dollar note) came to be found in many Greek Orthodox churches, supposedly as a Trinitarian representation?

As well as in Apostolic Christian iconography they depict the mysticism of the Holy Trinity, the Alfa et omega, etc. and many mystic aspects of our beautiful religion, freemasonry mocks and attacks it choosing our symbols to degradate them.

Dollar's "Un-Holy Trinity" is that of free trade, internationalism and secular humanism, which are the premises of the French revolution (it can also be their liberty-fraternity-equality). God becomes money, the savious of the world becomes "liberty" and the spirit is that of "human dignity".

Jefferson was one of the men who always knew how the plan of the New World Order was to be implemented, he was a very wise man. The maps of the 1800's even before Spanish America became independent, already show that Northern territories of New Spain were going to be anexed. That was the origin of the "manifest destiny".

Hypo-Ortho

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2003, 09:32:01 PM »
Somehow the idea of a disembodied eye in a triangle being a Christian symbol for God disturbs me.  Let the Masons have it!

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Offline Mexican

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Re:Masons and Orthodoxy
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2003, 04:13:31 AM »
I found something regarding th great seal:

"The men who were commissioned by the Continental Congress to come up with the seal of the United States were all Freemasons: Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin (who had the further distinction of being shamelessly debauched and boorishly crude). Benjamin Franklin was the chairman. After a number of models, the seal which we have today was adopted in 1782. It was Jefferson himself who placed the triangle around the all-seeing eye, added the year 1776, and E Pluribus Unum.

            Should anyone doubt that these are masonic symbols, suffice it to quote the April 1960 issue of the official masonic magazine, curiously entitled New Age:

Masonic Symbols in a $1 Bill
      13 leaves in the olive branches

      13 bars and stripes in the shield

      13 feathers in the tail

      13 arrows

      13 letters in the “E Pluribus Unum” on the ribbon

      13 stars in the green crest above

      32 long feathers representing 32-¦ in Masonry

      13 granite stones in the Pyramid with the Masonic “All-seeing Eye” completing it.

      13 letters in Annuit C+ôptis, “God has prospered.”

      On the front of the dollar bill is the seal of the United States made up of a key, square, and the Scales of Justice, as well as a compass which, of course, is an important symbol of Masonry."

                                                                  — James B. Walker 32-¦


« Last Edit: November 29, 2003, 04:14:53 AM by Mexican »