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Author Topic: Scientist confirms inexplicable nature of Our Lady of Guadalupe image  (Read 27480 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 08, 2009, 02:36:18 AM »

Our Lady of Guadalupe ‘completely beyond' scientific explanation, says researcher

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16789

Phoenix, Ariz., Aug 7, 2009 / 04:10 pm (CNA).- Researcher and physicist Dr. Aldofo Orozco told participants at the International Marian Congress on Our Lady of Guadalupe that there is no scientific explanation for the 478 years of high quality-preservation of the Tilma or for the miracles that have occurred to ensure its preservation.

Dr. Orozco began his talk by confirming that the conservation of the Tilma, the cloak of St. Juan Diego on which Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared 478 years ago, “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.”

“All the cloths similar to the Tilma that have been placed in the salty and humid environment around the Basilica have lasted no more than ten years,” he explained.  One painting of the miraculous image, created in 1789, was on display in a church near the basilica where the Tilma was placed.  “This painting was made with the best techniques of its time, the copy was beautiful and made with a fabric very similar to that of the Tilma. Also, the image was protected with a glass since it was first placed there.”

However, eight years later, the copy of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was thrown away because the colors were fading and threads were breaking.  In contrast, Orozco said, “the original Tilma was exposed for approximately 116 years without any kind of protection, receiving all the infrared and ultraviolet radiation from the tens of thousands of candles near it and exposed to the humid and salty air around the temple.”

Dr. Orozco then discussed the Tilma’s fabric.  He noted that “one of the most bizarre characteristics of the cloth is that the back side is rough and coarse, but the front side is ‘as soft as the most pure silk, as noted by painters and scientists in 1666, and confirmed one century later in 1751 by the Mexican painter, Miguel Cabrera.”

Following an analysis of some of the fibers in 1946, it was concluded that the fibers came from the Agave plant, however, noted Dr. Orozco, the researchers couldn’t figure out which of the 175 Agave species the Tilma was made from.  Years later, in 1975, “the famous Mexican researcher Ernesto Sodi Pallares said that the species of the agave was Agave popotule Zacc,” Orozco explained, “but we don’t know how he reached this conclusion.”

Before concluding his presentation, Dr. Orozco made mention of two miracles associated with the Tilma.

The first occurred in 1785 when a worker accidentally spilled a 50 percent nitric acid solvent on the right side of the cloth.  “Besides any natural explanation, the acid has not destroyed the fabric of the cloth, indeed it has not even destroyed the colored parts of the image,” Orozco said.

The second miracle was the explosion of a bomb near the Tilma in 1921.  Dr. Orozco recalled that the explosion broke the marble floor and widows 150 meters from the explosion, but “unexpectedly, neither the Tilma nor the normal glass that protected the Tilma was damaged or broken.”  The only damage near it was a brass crucifix that was twisted by the blast.

He continued, “There are no explanations why the shockwave that broke windows 150 meters afar did not destroy the normal glass that protected the image. Some people said that the Son by means of the brass crucifix protected the image of His Mother. The real fact is that we don’t have a natural explanation for this event.”

Dr. Orozco thanked the audience for listening to his presentation and closed by reassuring them that “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it, and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.”
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2009, 02:03:37 AM »

What is the position of the Orthodox Church on the veneration of this image?

Is the Guadalupe image venerated as an Icon by Orthodox believers in Mexico?
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2009, 05:09:31 AM »

Quote
What is the position of the Orthodox Church on the veneration of this image?

Is the Guadalupe image venerated as an Icon by Orthodox believers in Mexico?

Although it is depicted in the Antiochian monastery of St. Anthony the Great in Mexico, I'm not sure that it is actually venerated as an icon by the Orthodox there.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2249351542/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2261240877/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2009, 05:48:09 AM »

Curious ,,Didn't the Ecumenical Patriarch venerate it when he visited  Mexico...Thank God he doesn't set the trend for all the orthodox faithful...I don't accept or believe in that image.....It could be a creation of the devil though ...
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2009, 06:13:04 AM »

Here are some pictures from his visit in the Cathedral of Our Lady of Guadalupe.




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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2009, 08:19:44 AM »

Some believe that Juan Diego never existed and therefore the picture is not of a supernatural character.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_12_129/ai_87869035/

This is one of those things where the church claims infallibility but this is a pill I've never chosen to swallow.

Do Orthodox venerate St. Philemona? This is a very early saint (venerated by the Cure d'Ars, John Vianney) for which there is a body of work challenging its historicity.
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2009, 08:58:22 AM »

Interesting manner in which to "venerate" the image.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2009, 09:05:50 AM »

Interesting manner in which to "venerate" the image.  Roll Eyes

How so?
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2009, 09:46:50 AM »

Interesting manner in which to "venerate" the image.  Roll Eyes

How so?

I somehow do not equate grasping a framed image with both hands and holding the image up to examine as "veneration".
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2009, 11:51:03 AM »

Looks to me like he's giving the Latins a  Orthodox Pope Benediction with that Questionable Image ........Hummmmmm
That saying a Picture taken says a thousand words or more .And He's wearing his mantija in that lower  picture....
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2009, 12:18:50 PM »

Looks to me like he's giving the Latins a  Orthodox Pope Benediction with that Questionable Image ........Hummmmmm
That saying a Picture taken says a thousand words or more ....

Oh give it a rest already...
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2009, 02:51:31 PM »

Curious ,,Didn't the Ecumenical Patriarch venerate it when he visited  Mexico...Thank God he doesn't set the trend for all the orthodox faithful...I don't accept or believe in that image.....It could be a creation of the devil though ...
.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.
Anyway,this is not the worst thing he ever did,we are so sinful,not worthy to have a better EP.If o Theos sent us an angel-like、saintly、orthodox EP,maybe we would  murder him——like the unworthy monks did to St.Benedictus.
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2009, 03:57:52 PM »

.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.

By saying that She is "immaculada concepciou", this phantasma, as you call Her, didn't mean Her conception but Christ's. The date of the apparition proves that.
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2009, 04:26:59 PM »

It could be a creation of the devil though ...

Indeed, the devil always loves to foment fervent devotion to Christ and Our Lady.
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2009, 04:49:38 PM »

It could be a creation of the devil though ...

Indeed, the devil always loves to foment fervent devotion to Christ and Our Lady.

Exactly,like "Sacra Cor"and many other horrible and bloody cults——the diabolus is not a good aesthete.
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2009, 04:50:40 PM »

.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.

By saying that She is "immaculada concepciou", this phantasma, as you call Her, didn't mean Her conception but Christ's. The date of the apparition proves that.

What???Are you kidding....??
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2009, 08:04:47 PM »

What is the position of the Orthodox Church on the veneration of this image?

Is the Guadalupe image venerated as an Icon by Orthodox believers in Mexico?

The image of Our Lady of Guadelupe is not part of Orthodox tradition, there is no feast-day appointed in any Orthodox calendar or menaion for this image's liturgical veneration, and there are no liturgical texts (not even a troparion or kontakion) associated with it. In short, the Guadelupe image cannot be venerated as an icon by Orthodox believers.
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2009, 09:23:16 PM »

The image of Our Lady of Guadelupe is not part of Orthodox tradition, there is no feast-day appointed in any Orthodox calendar or menaion for this image's liturgical veneration, and there are no liturgical texts (not even a troparion or kontakion) associated with it. In short, the Guadelupe image cannot be venerated as an icon by Orthodox believers.

But do you really think that the Orthodox monastery in Mexico is in the wrong by depicting the image among its frescoes?

I can understand why the Christians of Mexico would not want to abandon this image of the Theotokos, as it is a large part of their history and national identity.  It is a bit of a conundrum and presents several dilemmas, but I am not wholly convinced that the image should be abandoned entirely.  Perhaps it could be modified to meet Orthodox iconographic standards, but still retain enough of a likeness to be identified by the Christians of Mexico.
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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2009, 09:57:14 PM »

One can create any image in the form of written icon ,but it doesn't make it a true ikona worthy of veneration...curious...
Didn't the spaniards abuse and massacre plenty of the natives there and in south americas ,doing it for the pope and the catholic church in speading the faith....
Legends of Guadalupe http://books.google.com/books?id=VNaftfbYp3gC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=Guadalupe+legends&source=bl&ots=CkcRBMmsCp&sig=pxgMzvxrBiW0hHjJKzcK5Ma-5Fc&hl=en&ei=jYB_SsTxBI-kMKLo0foC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=Guadalupe%20legends&f=false
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2009, 05:24:07 AM »

In short, the Guadelupe image cannot be venerated as an icon by Orthodox believers.

I believe it can - in a form of a private devotion.

.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.

By saying that She is "immaculada concepciou", this phantasma, as you call Her, didn't mean Her conception but Christ's. The date of the apparition proves that.

What???Are you kidding....??

No. What feast is there on March 25?
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2009, 06:18:16 AM »

Looks to me like he's giving the Latins a  Orthodox Pope Benediction with that Questionable Image ........Hummmmmm
That saying a Picture taken says a thousand words or more .And He's wearing his mantija in that lower  picture....

Well, what is actually far more likely is that His All-Holiness was presented with a copy of the image as a gift and is holding it up for the cameras. Judging from the way it is being held by the Latin Bishop on the floor in the first photograph, the image is not actually being venerated. His All-Holiness received the gift and then held it up to be photographed.
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2009, 06:22:29 AM »

Well, what is actually far more likely is that His All-Holiness was presented with a copy of the image as a gift and is holding it up for the cameras. Judging from the way it is being held by the Latin Bishop on the floor in the first photograph, the image is not actually being venerated. His All-Holiness received the gift and then held it up to be photographed.
Pictures only speak the thousand words we wish to make them say. They say nothing on their own.

Thankful for a well intentioned gift?   Shocked Shocked  Imagine that.
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2009, 08:17:33 AM »

In short, the Guadelupe image cannot be venerated as an icon by Orthodox believers.

I believe it can - in a form of a private devotion.

.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.

By saying that She is "immaculada concepciou", this phantasma, as you call Her, didn't mean Her conception but Christ's. The date of the apparition proves that.

What???Are you kidding....??

No. What feast is there on March 25?

It's hard to imagine such kind of "a private devotion"exists in Orthodoxy,in which you can venerate some image neither proved nor venerated by the Church and in the Church.


Forgive me,I cannot follow your logic.All papists beleive that when the phantasma of Lourdes told Bernadette Soubirous "que soy era immaculada concepciou",she actually proved the latin doctrine of Immaculate Conception. Now you say all papist misunderstood the message,in fact the phantasma talked about the conception of Christ and the Mysterium of Euangelismos......if so,why she said"que soy era"? Do you think that phantasma try to say she/he/it is Christ himself?
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« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2009, 08:28:35 AM »

Looks to me like he's giving the Latins a  Orthodox Pope Benediction with that Questionable Image ........Hummmmmm
That saying a Picture taken says a thousand words or more .And He's wearing his mantija in that lower  picture....

Well, what is actually far more likely is that His All-Holiness was presented with a copy of the image as a gift and is holding it up for the cameras. Judging from the way it is being held by the Latin Bishop on the floor in the first photograph, the image is not actually being venerated. His All-Holiness received the gift and then held it up to be photographed.
Pictures only speak the thousand words we wish to make them say. They say nothing on their own.

We agree.

Heaven forbid a logical and most likely correct answer is posted...it's spoils all the EP bashers' fun.
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« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2009, 09:16:28 AM »

It's hard to imagine such kind of "a private devotion"exists in Orthodoxy,in which you can venerate some image neither proved nor venerated by the Church and in the Church.

Do you, then, consider the Antiochian monastery of St. Anthony the Great in Mexico not being a part of the Church?

Forgive me,I cannot follow your logic.All papists beleive that when the phantasma of Lourdes told Bernadette Soubirous "que soy era immaculada concepciou",she actually proved the latin doctrine of Immaculate Conception. Now you say all papist misunderstood the message,in fact the phantasma talked about the conception of Christ and the Mysterium of Euangelismos......if so,why she said"que soy era"?

"Que soy era immaculada concepciou" doesn't mean "I am the one whose conception was was immaculate". It means "I am the immaculate conception". "Conception" means "formation of sb/sth", "making of sb/sth", or "begining of sb/sth". So the sentence can be changed into: "I am the immaculate begining". Beginning of who? Of Herself? No, of Christ-in-Flesh.
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« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2009, 09:54:12 AM »

It's hard to imagine such kind of "a private devotion"exists in Orthodoxy,in which you can venerate some image neither proved nor venerated by the Church and in the Church.

Do you, then, consider the Antiochian monastery of St. Anthony the Great in Mexico not being a part of the Church?

Forgive me,I cannot follow your logic.All papists beleive that when the phantasma of Lourdes told Bernadette Soubirous "que soy era immaculada concepciou",she actually proved the latin doctrine of Immaculate Conception. Now you say all papist misunderstood the message,in fact the phantasma talked about the conception of Christ and the Mysterium of Euangelismos......if so,why she said"que soy era"?

"Que soy era immaculada concepciou" doesn't mean "I am the one whose conception was was immaculate". It means "I am the immaculate conception". "Conception" means "formation of sb/sth", "making of sb/sth", or "begining of sb/sth". So the sentence can be changed into: "I am the immaculate begining". Beginning of who? Of Herself? No, of Christ-in-Flesh.

A monastery can be a part of the Church but never "the Church"itsself. One abbot or his whole synodia can be wrong,but never"the Church".

Such definition of "Immaculate conception"is yours,not of papists'.You can give whatever interpretation on the latin doctrine"Immaculate conception"as you want,but don't tell us you know better than all papists and the whole world what papists do believe.
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« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2009, 10:24:00 AM »


It's hard to imagine such kind of "a private devotion"exists in Orthodoxy,in which you can venerate some image neither proved nor venerated by the Church and in the Church.

Do you, then, consider the Antiochian monastery of St. Anthony the Great in Mexico not being a part of the Church?


I would assume that the Church did not authorize said painting.  Many churches are built, painted and decorated by local parishioners...and while they may be well meaning, they are not always canonically correct in their efforts.

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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2009, 10:58:18 AM »

Such definition of "Immaculate conception"is yours,not of papists'.

I have never said it's of papists.

You can give whatever interpretation on the latin doctrine"Immaculate conception"as you want. . .

I was not inerpreting the latin doctrine of the "Immaculate conception". I was interpreting the Lourdes apparition.

. . .but don't tell us you know better than all papists and the whole world what papists do believe.

Please, show me a single word I said about papists' belives.

I would assume that the Church did not authorize said painting.  Many churches are built, painted and decorated by local parishioners...and while they may be well meaning, they are not always canonically correct in their efforts.

The painting of the Theotokos of Guadalupe in the Antiochian monastery of St. Anthony in Mexico may be considered canonical or non-canonical. But it proves one thing - that the Guadalupe image is venerated in the Church. Not on a large scale, maybe only in that monastery, but it is.
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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2009, 11:28:26 AM »

They Must be Latin converts To Orthodoxy at that Monastery, and bringing there Demi Goddess worship of Guadalupe into Orthodoxy ,Hopefully Orthodoxy comes up with a swift cure For that infection before it spreads like a disease.......
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« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2009, 11:40:17 AM »

Such definition of "Immaculate conception"is yours,not of papists'.

I have never said it's of papists.

You can give whatever interpretation on the latin doctrine"Immaculate conception"as you want. . .

I was not inerpreting the latin doctrine of the "Immaculate conception". I was interpreting the Lourdes apparition.

. . .but don't tell us you know better than all papists and the whole world what papists do believe.

Please, show me a single word I said about papists' belives.

I would assume that the Church did not authorize said painting.  Many churches are built, painted and decorated by local parishioners...and while they may be well meaning, they are not always canonically correct in their efforts.

The painting of the Theotokos of Guadalupe in the Antiochian monastery of St. Anthony in Mexico may be considered canonical or non-canonical. But it proves one thing - that the Guadalupe image is venerated in the Church. Not on a large scale, maybe only in that monastery, but it is.

I'm sorry....you did not say that you know better than all papists about the "immaculate conception"doctrine;you actually say that you know better than all papists about the Lourdes apparition——all papists misunderstood the message of the "Lady",but you got the ture meaning of it.
Oh,too bad for the poor "Lady",she should't choose Bernadette but you as the receiver of such an important message ....
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« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2009, 11:40:29 AM »

But it proves one thing - that the Guadalupe image is venerated in the Church. Not on a large scale, maybe only in that monastery, but it is.

What it means is that the image is venerated in a church (lower c), not in the Church.


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« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2009, 11:54:24 AM »

I'm sorry....you did not say that you know better than all papists about the "immaculate conception"doctrine;you actually say that you know better than all papists about the Lourdes apparition——all papists misunderstood the message of the "Lady",but you got the ture meaning of it.
Oh,too bad for the poor "Lady",she should't choose Bernadette but you as the receiver of such an important message ....

And maybe you should choose another place to spread irony and contempt.

What it means is that the image is venerated in a church (lower c), not in the Church.

A church of the Chruch.
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« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2009, 01:16:37 PM »

They must be Latin converts to Orthodoxy at that monastery, bringing their demigoddess worship of Guadalupe into Orthodoxy.  Hopefully Orthodoxy comes up with a swift cure for that infection before it spreads like a disease...

I think everything is going to be OK.
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« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2009, 01:39:51 PM »

It seems to me that the iconographer simply "got it wrong". The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is certainly not an Orthodox icon nor should it be venerated as such. What "should" happen is that it be removed and an Orthodox icon of the Theotokos take its place. This does not translate into the monastery not being a part of the Church anymore than one of us erring in our daily lives suddenly ceases to be Orthodox.
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« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2009, 02:21:33 PM »

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is certainly not an Orthodox icon nor should it be venerated as such.

What makes this image un-Orthodox apart from the fact that it wasn't painted by Orthodox? As far as the visual part of it is concerned, there is quite a similar Orthodox icon, Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn (http://tiny.cc/02LW1), venerated by the Polish Orthodox Church on December 26/January 8.

What "should" happen is that it be removed and an Orthodox icon of the Theotokos take its place.

Orthodox churches around the world have a lot of stuff to be removed - all these Da Vinci's Last Suppers, van Balen's Holy Trinities, Rubens' Virgin Marys, etc, etc. But we should remeber what was taught by St Seraphim of Sarov (if I remeber correctly) - that even poor iconography or not iconography at all shouldn't be ridiculled or treated with lack of repect, because a prayer said in front of a 19th century painting, but with a true faith, humility and love, is far more pleasing to God than an insincere prayer said in front of a perfectly canonical icon. And moreover, God does work mirracles through images which canonicity is questionable, vide: the myrh-streaming icon (painting?) of St George in Ramla, Israel (http://tiny.cc/5rDkA ).
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« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2009, 03:01:15 PM »

Let's agree to disagree then. I don't wish to argue the point.

God bless.
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« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2009, 04:10:40 PM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..For our Holy Mother to deceive the Indians just to convert them just doesn't seem right to me...
That's why i don't believe in that apparition or in that image build on deceit...seem to me like satan's handy work...

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..

Christ himself empowered the apostles to go out and preach and convert the people in the world ....Im sure he would of mentioned that he would be sending  his Holy Mother in the future masquerading as a pagan goddess to convert by deception... Oh wait he did warn us about satans deceptions...
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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2009, 04:17:24 PM »

It could be a creation of the devil though ...

Always the optimist.

What is the position of the Orthodox Church on the veneration of this image?

Is the Guadalupe image venerated as an Icon by Orthodox believers in Mexico?

Our Antiochian parish here in Austin, Texas has an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe (it's called something else on the icon though). It is however not visible. It's behind the iconostasis next to the table of preparation. Our parish was founded by Lebanese immigrants, btw.



It's hard to imagine such kind of "a private devotion"exists in Orthodoxy,in which you can venerate some image neither proved nor venerated by the Church and in the Church.

Well, there are as many private devotions as there are Orthodox Christians. I don't think the Church has approved the private veneration of images of our teacher Confucius.

They must be Latin converts to Orthodoxy at that monastery, bringing their demigoddess worship of Guadalupe into Orthodoxy.  Hopefully Orthodoxy comes up with a swift cure for that infection before it spreads like a disease...

I think everything is going to be OK.

LOL.
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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2009, 04:30:20 PM »

But we should remeber what was taught by St Seraphim of Sarov (if I remeber correctly) - that even poor iconography or not iconography at all shouldn't be ridiculled or treated with lack of repect, because a prayer said in front of a 19th century painting, but with a true faith, humility and love, is far more pleasing to God than an insincere prayer said in front of a perfectly canonical icon. And moreover, God does work mirracles through images which canonicity is questionable, vide: the myrh-streaming icon (painting?) of St George in Ramla, Israel (http://tiny.cc/5rDkA ).

  Cryangel
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« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2009, 05:36:10 PM »

If you read the link I posted earlier, the stories on the supernatural origins of the painting appeared many years after the introduction of the image. Looked at it from that point of view, it's a pious image that took on an "apparitional" meaning after the fact. The same can be said for the origins of the Dominican rosary. A pious custom that became blessed, I think decades, after the fact, with a story ascribed to St. Dominic. The online 1913 Catholic encyclopedia actually has very good (non-supernatural) descriptions of a great many Catholic customs, largely from Jesuit Herbert Thurston. Much of this phenomenon is an expression of "popular catholicism" that later (theologically modified) was made acceptable practice for believers. The brown scapular is another pious devotion - the church had to invent an entire theology that said it was not, in fact, a "ticket to heaven" notwithstanding the legendary promise associated with it. The St. Benedict is another popular sacramental with legendary promises associated with it.

Having an Italian on the seat of Peter helped give an official imprimatur to a lot of Marian devotions which were popular in places like Italy, Spain or Poland.

Anyway, to get back to the main topic, I personally do not believe there is anything supernatural in character to the Guadalupe image. There's nothing wrong with it, but I don't believe there's a Juan Diego, any more than I subscribe to the legends associated with the origins of the rosary. The problem is that if you have sympathetic people in the higher ups of the church, it tends to push the skeptics to the side, which is why (for me) Juan Diego's canonization is problematic, because it canonizes the entire legend associated with the image.
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« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2009, 07:03:46 PM »

What makes this image un-Orthodox apart from the fact that it wasn't painted by Orthodox? As far as the visual part of it is concerned, there is quite a similar Orthodox icon, Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn (http://tiny.cc/02LW1), venerated by the Polish Orthodox Church on December 26/January 8.



This icon is beautiful!  Is it truly Orthodox, or is it Catholic in origin?
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« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2009, 07:30:39 PM »

This image, known as Ostrobramskaya, arose from Polish Roman Catholic tradition.
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« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2009, 03:20:54 AM »

This image, known as Ostrobramskaya, arose from Polish Roman Catholic tradition.

Actually, it was Orthodox first and known as Khersonskaya. It had "More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim" inscription. It went to the hands of Catholics (first Byzantine, then Roman) at the time of the schism of Brest. In 1829, the icon was renovated and some Western features were added to it.
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« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2009, 04:26:42 AM »

My dear Michal, here is an example of the icon of the Mother of God Korsunskaya:

http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Images/ib2413.jpg

There is no resemblance at all in iconographic type or composition between Ostrobramskaya and Korsunskaya.




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« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2009, 04:57:18 AM »

There is no resemblance at all in iconographic type or composition between Ostrobramskaya and Korsunskaya.

The previous name of the Ostrobramskaya indicates where the icon was brought from, nothing more.
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« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2009, 11:26:15 AM »

It could be a creation of the devil though ...
Within 40 years of Our Lady's appearance, the bloody human sacrifices of the Aztecs (which used to murder hundreds and thousands of people a day at times to their gods/goddesses) came to an end and the Indian population converted to Christianity. You should read a good history on Guadalupe, such as the Wonder of Guadalupe.

Some of the extraordinary things about the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe:

- The eyes behave like living eyes, contracting and dilating with light and reflecting images like real eyes. They also show the image of that encounter of Juan Diego at the Bishops residence.
- The stars on her cloak are the exact positions of the stars that were viewable at that location in Mexico at that time.
- The image is not on the cloak, but is suspended a fraction of an inch above the tilma
- The image defies copying; that is no copy, whether by hand or photograph, can duplicate the glorious splendor of the image in person.
- Many features, such as the eyes, are too fine of details to be painted on so coarse a material as the tilma.
- The tilma, made of coarse cactus fiber (its a poor peasant work apron) can only survive at best 40 years -- this one has survived over ten times as long.
- No evidence of artistic creation, such as sketching, brush strokes, over-coats, has been detected even in using state of the art computer and photographic analysis.
- The apparent size and color qualities change on distance from the tilma.
- etc.


I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.



FYI -- did you know that the original Our Lady of Guadalupe was a statue carved by Saint Luke that found its way to Spain.
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« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2009, 11:44:29 AM »



FYI -- did you know that the original Our Lady of Guadalupe was a statue carved by Saint Luke that found its way to Spain.

I seriously doubt that.
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« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2009, 12:00:03 PM »

Here is Joe Nickell's investigation into this:
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-06/guadalupe.html

Quote
In 1985, forensic analyst John F. Fischer and I reported all of this evidence and more in "a folkloristic and iconographic investigation" of the Image of Guadalupe in Skeptical Inquirer. We also addressed some of the pseudoscience that the image has attracted. (For example, some claim to have discovered faces, including that of "Juan Diego" in the magnified weave of the Virgin's eyes-evidence of nothing more than the pious imagination's ability to perceive images, inkblot-like, in random shapes) (Nickell and Fischer 1985).

Recently our findings were confirmed when the Spanish-language magazine Proceso reported the results of a secret study of the Image of Guadalupe. It had been conducted - secretly - in 1982 by art restoration expert José Sol Rosales. Rosales examined the cloth with a stereomicroscope and observed that the canvas appeared to be a mixture of linen and hemp or cactus fiber. It had been prepared with a brush coat of white primer (calcium sulfate), and the image was then rendered in distemper (i.e., paint consisting of pigment, water, and a binding medium). The artist used a "very limited palette," the expert stated, consisting of black (from pine soot), white, blue, green, various earth colors ("tierras"), reds (including carmine), and gold. Rosales concluded that the image did not originate supernaturally but was instead the work of an artist who used the materials and methods of the sixteenth century (El Vaticano 2002).

In addition, new scholarship (e.g. Brading 2001) suggests that, while the image was painted not long after the Spanish conquest and was alleged to have miraculous powers, the pious legend of Mary's appearance to Juan Diego may date from the following century. Some Catholic scholars, including the former curator of the basilica Monsignor Guillermo Schulemburg, even doubt the historical existence of Juan Diego. Schulemburg said the canonization of Juan Diego would be the "recognition of a cult" (Nickell 1997).

However, the skeptics are apparently having little if any effect, and Pope John Paul II seems bent on canonizing "Juan Diego" who is as demonstrably popular among Mexican Catholics as he is, apparently, fictitious.
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« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2009, 12:12:46 PM »



FYI -- did you know that the original Our Lady of Guadalupe was a statue carved by Saint Luke that found its way to Spain.

I seriously doubt that.

I know, I know, wikipedia, but still: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe,_Extremadura
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« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2009, 12:54:28 PM »

It's hard to imagine such kind of "a private devotion"exists in Orthodoxy,in which you can venerate some image neither proved nor venerated by the Church and in the Church.
Well, there are as many private devotions as there are Orthodox Christians. I don't think the Church has approved the private veneration of images of our teacher Confucius.

I also do not think that the Church has approved any kind(private or not)veneration of images(or more'traditional' way,not images, but only ‘神主’) of our great teacher Confucius. It's not the responsibility of the Church to judge such thing.Just like in other cultures,people show their respect towards flags or other symbols,without asking blessing from SF or church authority.

But the case of "Our Lady of Guadalupe" is completely different from the veneration of Confucius or national flag——no one say Confucius should be venerated as a christian saint or the Korean national flag(太極+四卦象)should be venerated as an christian symbol.But the image of "Our Lady of Guadalupe"supposed to be one icon of most holy Theotos in the view of it's venerators.

Furthermore,the veneration of Confucius or all kinds of traditional sinic 祭祀of聖賢are related to a prechristian philosophy which has nothing conflict with Orthodoxy. But he image of "Our Lady of Guadalupe"is related with one certain heresy,which is evil per se.

Practically,I do not see any problem to veneate 至聖先師大成孔子or亞聖孟子or復聖顏子or箕聖according to our tradition;but I'll never venerate any "lady"or"master"who reveal it's self by distrustful apparition(such phenomenon wildy exist in both sinic and korean folk religions),our teacher Confucius defined such thing as“怪力亂神”。
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« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2009, 01:51:33 PM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. Wink
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« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2009, 03:21:09 PM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. Wink


I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
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« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2009, 04:07:45 PM »

I don't see any problem with having the painting in the Monastery of St. Anthony in Mexico. I don't think it has to be removed. I don't see the Russian Church running to remove all the heretical paintings from Christ the Savior Cathedral or any other church for that matter which have absolutely no Orthodox origin same with some paintings I've seen in Serbia also. And their are a ton of churches that have Davinci's Last Supper in it; where is that in Orthodox tradition? Our Lady of Guadalupe is a symbol for the Mexican people and if they want to keep it then fine if it brings them closer to God.
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« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2009, 04:07:58 PM »


I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........

And you, of course, have the clairvoyance of an elder to know what is in the heart of "the mexicans and tourists that go there"?  What proof do you have that they do these things out of a desire to "appeace an angry God Or Goddess" and not out of some sort of a desire to bring their bodies in line with the spirit, ala St. Paul?

Until you can present some proof of your accusations, you, my friend, are just bearing false witness...or maybe just baring your omnipresent anti-Catholic sentiments once again?
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« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2009, 04:21:23 PM »

Here is Joe Nickell's investigation into this:
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-06/guadalupe.html

Are you a regular reader of the magazine of this organization? As I'm sure you are aware, the Committee on Skeptical Inquiry was founded and is run by Paul Kurtz, the so-called "father of secular humanism." I shudder to think how his atheist operation "debunks" the existence of Jesus Christ or other foundational beliefs of Christianity. Might there be some bias/agenda here?

If everything has to be "proven" by "science," what is the point of believing anything?

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« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2009, 05:11:14 PM »

I don't know much about this image (other then the fact that the RCC in America constantly pushes it on anglo parishes in an effort to appear PC and acceptin g to Mexican migrants). 

It would be kind of incorrect however for the Orthodox to venerate an image held in the esteem of the post schism RCC.  The OCC should be faithful to her own traditions and religious culture.  Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.
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« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2009, 05:15:48 PM »

I'm aware of the slippery slope argument, but also adhere to a healthy skepticism. This was a mechanism by which I was able to discard most of the phenomenon associated with various Marian apparitions, weeping statues, icons and what not. None of these are things which are endemic to historic Christianity, and yet whenever you look at (popular) Catholicism, it is rife with it. So where does this phenomenon come from? I don't think that a naturalistic answer is the wrong answer. In the past I have admired the work of the Bollandist fathers and the above-mentioned Herbert Thurston, whose work affected the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia and the Revised Butler's Lives of the Saints.

Take for example the visions ascribed to Teresa of Avila or other ascetics, for example. Where do these visions come from? Do they come from God or Satan? Or is it the fact that you've subjected your body to various forms of asceticism, and that your mode of prayer creates the environment from which visions come? And then you treat these visions as authentic as a result of this bodily punishment. This approach allowed me to deconstruct or place sufficient doubt against the heavenly origins of many visions. Modern instances of inedia phenomenon (people who starve themselves and claim to live off only the Eucharistic hosts) have proven themselves to be frauds.

I do not equate skepticism with full-blown secular humanism. I am aware of the connection, but skepticism is a method, not a faith system.

With respect to Juan Diego, I simply don't believe that he ever existed, and the Catholic Church erred in canonizing him. And that there isn't anything supernatural about the Guadalupe image itself. I am sure that others do, but I do not..
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« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2009, 07:01:59 PM »

Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.
Yeah, but there's nothing to prevent Eastern Christians from being Latino-ized.
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« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2009, 07:40:50 PM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. Wink


I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
How do you know their motivations?  Have you been blessed with the gift of telepathy?
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« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2009, 07:54:14 PM »

It would be kind of incorrect however for the Orthodox to venerate an image held in the esteem of the post schism RCC.  The OCC should be faithful to her own traditions and religious culture.  Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.

I agree that the Orthodox should stick to it's own traditions but what do you say about the Western paintings and so called icons that adorn the churches of Russia such as Christ the Savior in Moscow? Those are definitely not traditional in Orthodoxy since they were introduced by the Westernizations of Tsar Peter I. Our Lady of Guadalupe looks more like an icon than many of the Western paintings you see in many Orthodox churches today.
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« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2009, 08:01:03 PM »

I agree that the Orthodox should stick to it's own traditions but what do you say about the Western paintings and so called icons that adorn the churches of Russia such as Christ the Savior in Moscow? Those are definitely not traditional in Orthodoxy since they were introduced by the Westernizations of Tsar Peter I. Our Lady of Guadalupe looks more like an icon than many of the Western paintings you see in many Orthodox churches today.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Neither the painting of the Trinity in the cupola of Christ the Savior Cathedral, nor Our Lady of Guadelupe conform with Orthodox theology, doctrine, or iconographic canon.
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« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2009, 08:43:08 PM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. Wink


I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
How do you know their motivations?  Have you been blessed with the gift of telepathy?



  No! ...


Second Sight though,,, this is what i call it, I can tell things  like who will die also other things that my car was going to be hit i knew in what area and what part of the car was going to be damaged be fore it all happened... ...
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« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2009, 02:05:22 AM »

It would be kind of incorrect however for the Orthodox to venerate an image held in the esteem of the post schism RCC.  The OCC should be faithful to her own traditions and religious culture.  Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.

I agree that the Orthodox should stick to it's own traditions but what do you say about the Western paintings and so called icons that adorn the churches of Russia such as Christ the Savior in Moscow? Those are definitely not traditional in Orthodoxy since they were introduced by the Westernization's of Tsar Peter I. Our Lady of Guadalupe looks more like an icon than many of the Western paintings you see in many Orthodox churches today.


I see nothing wrong with the use of the Westernized style of Iconography popular in 19th century Orthodoxy.  The Ikon's are still Ikon's regardless of the way that they are written.  The older, more Byzantine ones certainly should have a pride of place within Orthodoxy, but not at the expense of refusing to allow different styles of Iconography to be introduced and used.

I'm actually a fan of Western style Iconography.  Many of the Orthodox Churches in America that date from the late 19th to mid 20th century have these type of Ikon's.  I know that there are purist who would insist that they be painted over with more "liturgically correct" Ikon's, but I'm not for it.
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« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2009, 09:51:18 AM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. Wink


I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
How do you know their motivations?  Have you been blessed with the gift of telepathy?



  No! ...


Second Sight though,,, this is what i call it, I can tell things  like who will die also other things that my car was going to be hit i knew in what area and what part of the car was going to be damaged be fore it all happened... ...

Second Sight, huh?

In Mexico, they usually call people like you Brujos.
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« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2009, 10:16:52 AM »

It would be kind of incorrect however for the Orthodox to venerate an image held in the esteem of the post schism RCC.  The OCC should be faithful to her own traditions and religious culture.  Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.

I agree that the Orthodox should stick to it's own traditions but what do you say about the Western paintings and so called icons that adorn the churches of Russia such as Christ the Savior in Moscow? Those are definitely not traditional in Orthodoxy since they were introduced by the Westernization's of Tsar Peter I. Our Lady of Guadalupe looks more like an icon than many of the Western paintings you see in many Orthodox churches today.


I see nothing wrong with the use of the Westernized style of Iconography popular in 19th century Orthodoxy.  The Ikon's are still Ikon's regardless of the way that they are written.  The older, more Byzantine ones certainly should have a pride of place within Orthodoxy, but not at the expense of refusing to allow different styles of Iconography to be introduced and used.

I'm actually a fan of Western style Iconography.  Many of the Orthodox Churches in America that date from the late 19th to mid 20th century have these type of Ikon's.  I know that there are purist who would insist that they be painted over with more "liturgically correct" Ikon's, but I'm not for it.

I don't mind Western style icons for the most part either but they were an innovation borrowed from the West so if churches have those then why can't the Mexican Orthodox keep Our Lady of Guadalupe? The Western stuff I really have a problem with are the Trinity icons such as the one in the dome of Christ the Savior in Moscow which depicts God the Father with the Christ child and a dove and such depiction is heretical.
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« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2009, 04:57:47 PM »

There's a difference betwen a western STYLE Ikon (which is still of an Orthodox character just expressed from a Western artistic style) and an actual Western devotion which is not Orthodox in nature.

The OL of G image is connected to a miracle which is not sanctioned by any OC that I'm aware of.  Futher, the whole Guadalupe story took place outside the visible bonds of the Orthodox Church.  Why should Orthodox venerate an image that was used to convert millions of Indians to Church which is outside Orthodoxy?  By doing this, wouldn't we admit that God wanted people to join a non Orthodox Church and thus reject the faith we believe to be the only true one in existance on this Earth?
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« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2009, 12:38:36 AM »

It would be kind of incorrect however for the Orthodox to venerate an image held in the esteem of the post schism RCC.  The OCC should be faithful to her own traditions and religious culture.  Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.

Such is true. Totally understandable. Our Lady has appeared to you folks too---so clearly she desired for you to focus on what she revealed to you.
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« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2009, 12:40:22 AM »

Anyway, who says that the Holy Theotokos cannot appear to pagan or non-Orthodox peoples to spread the gospel? Is she bound to appear only before Orthodox?
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« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2009, 01:25:22 AM »

Anyway, who says that the Holy Theotokos cannot appear to pagan or non-Orthodox peoples to spread the gospel? Is she bound to appear only before Orthodox?


Really why did she appear in the semblance of a pagan Goddess so that the people could identify with... isn't that kind of sneaky for conversion ....
Even the special i watched about that mentioned it ,i believe it was on a EWTN special...

Stick with the ancient holy Apostolic way given to us ,stop chasing after new revelation in shadows, visions ,Apparitions that speak and preach .....
Thank God For Orthodoxy we don't need shades ,spooks demons or whatever taking us off the ancient tried and true path of salvation....
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« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2009, 01:32:22 AM »

I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........

Then perhaps you should read about the ascetic practices surrounding the icon of PANAGIA PROUSIOTISSA.



Quote
The Icon awaits the crowds of pilgrims who flock there from the 15th to the 22nd of August, which are the days of the feast. In olden times the quiet of the mountains was disturbed by the voices of groups of people going to the feast. They had to walk on goat paths, among ancient chestnut, fir and plane trees. The journey was 15 hours long and the people carried baskets of food and bundles of blankets balanced on their heads. Riding on horseback was reserved for the old and the infirm. Some of them could be seen walking barefoot or crawling on their knees, fulfilling a promise given for a miraculous healing. The pilgrims would go there, light their candles of faith and stay overnight in the monastery's guesthouse or out in the open. In the morning people would attend a very early church service and then depart hoping to return next year.

Source: http://www.panagiaprousiotissa.org/iconhistory.html
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« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2009, 08:16:55 AM »

Is anyone else troubled by the quality of the "science" in the OP?
The scientist Dr. Orozco begins by claiming the image on the tilma  “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.” Sounds credible, no? After all, it's coming from a scientist. However, he also states: “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it, and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.” Did he scientifically prove this too?
And I question the quality of his research and scholarship when Dr. Orozco says of the plant fibres the tilma is made of: "the famous Mexican researcher Ernesto Sodi Pallares said that the species of the agave was Agave popotule Zacc but we don’t know how he reached this conclusion.”
Isn't science about demonstratable, measurable and repeatable results and data? If we don't know how someone reached a conclusion, then we don't know whether that conclusion is correct, accurate or true.
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« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2009, 10:38:06 AM »

The scientist Dr. Orozco begins by claiming the image on the tilma  “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.” Sounds credible, no? After all, it's coming from a scientist. However, he also states: “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it, and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.” Did he scientifically prove this too?
Why is the assumption that for a scientist to be credible, he must be an atheist -- and making any sort of religious statement that doesn't ridicule God or the faithful is absolute taboo?!


And I question the quality of his research and scholarship when Dr. Orozco says of the plant fibres the tilma is made of: "the famous Mexican researcher Ernesto Sodi Pallares said that the species of the agave was Agave popotule Zacc but we don’t know how he reached this conclusion.”
Isn't science about demonstratable, measurable and repeatable results and data? If we don't know how someone reached a conclusion, then we don't know whether that conclusion is correct, accurate or true.
Do we even know if this researcher performed any decisive tests? It could be an expert's educated guess.
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« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2009, 11:47:36 AM »

The scientist Dr. Orozco begins by claiming the image on the tilma  “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.” Sounds credible, no? After all, it's coming from a scientist. However, he also states: “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it, and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.” Did he scientifically prove this too?
Why is the assumption that for a scientist to be credible, he must be an atheist -- and making any sort of religious statement that doesn't ridicule God or the faithful is absolute taboo?!

The scientist's faith or lack of faith has nothing to do with the Scientific Method. No facts or figures or lab results were provided in the report. He did not state how he proved or disproved Our Lady visiting Mexico 478 years ago.
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« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2009, 12:23:22 PM »

There's a difference betwen a western STYLE Ikon (which is still of an Orthodox character just expressed from a Western artistic style) and an actual Western devotion which is not Orthodox in nature.

What do you say about heretical icons of the Trinity which are not Orthodox in nature but can be found in Orthodox churches around the world? Those are Western in nature and are not Orthodox at all when God the Father is depicted holding Christ.

Dome of Christ the Savior in Moscow:


I have a just as much as a problem with that than OL of Guadalupe.

I do agree with you though that the story connected with the image is something that we cannot accept.
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« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2009, 03:02:16 PM »

This same Ikon of the Trinity was also on the interior dome of the Russian cathedral in Shanghai, the same one which was consecrated and served in by St John Maximovitch (it is now a French restaurant if I'm not mistaken).  St John did not have any problems serving in a church which had this image in it.  Why then should we make a big issue of of it?  Everyone has their own preferences for Iconography, music, and ritual when it comes to religion.  Why can't we just respect each others taste?
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« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2009, 04:29:34 PM »

This same Ikon of the Trinity was also on the interior dome of the Russian cathedral in Shanghai, the same one which was consecrated and served in by St John Maximovitch (it is now a French restaurant if I'm not mistaken).  St John did not have any problems serving in a church which had this image in it.  Why then should we make a big issue of of it?  Everyone has their own preferences for Iconography, music, and ritual when it comes to religion.  Why can't we just respect each others taste?

Robb, the criticism of the image of the Trinity at Christ the Savior and in Shanghai as uncanonical has nothing to do with esthetics or artistic preference or taste, but everything to do with proper theology and doctrine. Canons from ecumenical and synodal councils abound in their prohibition of this sort of image, yet, for any number of reasons, such images continue to be painted. Undeniably great saint that he was, St John nevertheless erred in allowing such an image to be painted in the cathedral in Shanghai.
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« Reply #76 on: August 13, 2009, 05:22:14 PM »

Pardon my ignorance of iconography, but what is heretical about the icon in the cathedral?

and Stashko, she did not appear (if it was her) as a pagan goddess, but as an aztec woman.
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« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2009, 05:42:53 PM »

Quote
Icons depicting God the Father do not conform to the teachings of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. God the Father is invisible and not able to be depicted. Since Christ was born of the indescribable Father, the Father cannot have an image.

But icons such as the Ancient of Days icon depict God the Father as an old man with a white beard, sometimes at the top of other icons. Russian Trinity icons sometimes show Christ and the Father setting on two thrones with a dove between them.

Another icon, that depicts the Father, is the Paternity icon. It also depicts God the Father as an old man with a white beard with the young boy Jesus, sitting on his lap, holding a dove.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/God_the_Father#God_the_Father_in_iconography

It is an error to have God the Father depicted in an icon, but no worse than other canons being broken for the sake of local tradition such as kneeling on Sundays.
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« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2009, 06:06:13 PM »

I don't see the Russian Church running to remove all the heretical paintings from Christ the Savior Cathedral...

Many apologies for asking, but I am still learning as much as I can about Orthodoxy.  What heretical images are you speaking of?  I'm assuming the images appeared during USSR rule? 
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« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2009, 06:19:42 PM »

I don't see the Russian Church running to remove all the heretical paintings from Christ the Savior Cathedral...

Many apologies for asking, but I am still learning as much as I can about Orthodoxy.  What heretical images are you speaking of?  I'm assuming the images appeared during USSR rule? 

No, images of God the Father as an old man first appeared in the Orthodox world since at least as far back as the 16th century, via western influences. It must be noted that the western church, having never adopted the canons and rulings of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council with regard to iconography, continued to perpetuate imagery through its religious art which is contrary to the doctrines and theology of the Orthodox Church. The images in Christ the Savior and Shanghai have nothing to do with the Soviet period or its influence.
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« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2009, 06:21:50 PM »

Quote
Icons depicting God the Father do not conform to the teachings of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. God the Father is invisible and not able to be depicted. Since Christ was born of the indescribable Father, the Father cannot have an image.

But icons such as the Ancient of Days icon depict God the Father as an old man with a white beard, sometimes at the top of other icons. Russian Trinity icons sometimes show Christ and the Father setting on two thrones with a dove between them.

Another icon, that depicts the Father, is the Paternity icon. It also depicts God the Father as an old man with a white beard with the young boy Jesus, sitting on his lap, holding a dove.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/God_the_Father#God_the_Father_in_iconography

It is an error to have God the Father depicted in an icon, but no worse than other canons being broken for the sake of local tradition such as kneeling on Sundays.

There is a world of difference between an error involving pious custom and an error of expression of proper theology and doctrine. Iconography is not simply religious art. Apples and oranges.
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« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2009, 06:54:36 PM »

Everyone has their own preferences for Iconography, music, and ritual when it comes to religion.  Why can't we just respect each others taste?

That's my point. Some Mexican Orthodox taste may include the image of Out Lady of Guadalupe since it's probably an image they grew up with as did their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. I think condemning one and not the other is not right since they both came from Western influence. It is a matter of taste. If one respects the right of the Russians having their God the Father then why not also respect the right for Mexican Orthodox to have the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe which is an image so ingrained in Mexico's Christian history.
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« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2009, 07:22:14 PM »

Once one becomes baptised into the Orthodox faith, one puts the "old man" aside, and becomes a "new man". Folk culture is all very well if it is not contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology, but sentiments such as it's probably an image they grew up with as did their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.is not at all enough to justify the perpetuation of images such as OL of Guadelupe in Orthodox Churches.

One only needs to see the most unfortunate example of the New Skete monasteries who have continued to cling to their former denomination's customs, which include the liturgical veneration of non-Orthodox saints, and the painting on the interior walls of one of their churches figures who are not Orthodox Christians (there are a couple who are), and, in some cases, not even Roman Catholics. Haloes or no haloes, the non-Orthodox figures should not be there.

http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm
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« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2009, 07:38:13 PM »

Once one becomes baptised into the Orthodox faith, one puts the "old man" aside, and becomes a "new man". Folk culture is all very well if it is not contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology, but sentiments such as it's probably an image they grew up with as did their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.is not at all enough to justify the perpetuation of images such as OL of Guadelupe in Orthodox Churches.

I think the same argument could be made for the God the Father depictions in Orthodox churches as well since those depictions are contrary to Orthodox Tradition and canons yet they have been in Russia for so long, I don't see them going away the same thing goes for the Guadalupe image. You see what I'm getting at here? I'm not really advocating putting the image in churches but I don't have a problem if the Mexican Orthodox faithful want to keep it.

Quote
One only needs to see the most unfortunate example of the New Skete monasteries who have continued to cling to their former denomination's customs, which include the liturgical veneration of non-Orthodox saints, and the painting on the interior walls of one of their churches figures who are not Orthodox Christians (there are a couple who are), and, in some cases, not even Roman Catholics. Haloes or no haloes, the non-Orthodox figures should not be there.

http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm

Oh don't get me started on New Skete, the frescos there are horrifying and so are a lot of their practices. There is a difference though since the image of Guadalupe is one of Mary which I don't see as the problem but there is a problem when you pick and choose saints that you want who are not Orthodox. If the Mexican Orthodox faithful keep the image of Guadalupe, fine, but if they celebrate a feast for it or Juan Diego then that is a problem but if they have the image there to remind them of the Christian heritage of Mexico then I don't see that much of a problem.
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« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2009, 07:56:03 PM »

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If the Mexican Orthodox faithful keep the image of Guadalupe, fine, but if they celebrate a feast for it or Juan Diego then that is a problem
My dear Andrew, you are missing a very large point. Even if a feast of OL of Guadelupe never eventuates (which it won't), iconography is, at its essence, liturgical as well as doctrinal. To have images in an Orthodox Church which do not have any basis in Orthodox doctrine, theology or liturgical tradition is simply wrong, no matter what "touchy-feely" spin anyone wants to put on it.

During Vespers and Matins, does not the priest at certain times circle the nave of the church, censing every icon? Ask yourself, what does this mean? Is this not a veneration of every saint and feast depicted on the walls (in mural, or as portable icons)? How, then, can the Guadelupe image, which is beyond question outside Orthodox tradition, and, to this day, has not been bestowed even a troparion or kontakion, let alone a Vespers and Matins service, be seen as fit to be present in an Orthodox church?
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« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2009, 11:51:20 PM »

The scientist Dr. Orozco begins by claiming the image on the tilma  “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.” Sounds credible, no? After all, it's coming from a scientist. However, he also states: “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it, and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.” Did he scientifically prove this too?
Why is the assumption that for a scientist to be credible, he must be an atheist -- and making any sort of religious statement that doesn't ridicule God or the faithful is absolute taboo?!
That's not what ozgeorge said.  In truth, there's nothing saying that the only credible scientists are those who don't believe in God.  A scientist who is also a Christian can still be credible as a scientist, and a scientist can even speak of God doing something without this automatically being a scientific statement.  What I DO read ozgeorge as saying is that truly scientific statements can be based only on proper scientific research and can neither make religious statements nor draw upon the influence of religious statements.
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« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2009, 04:50:51 AM »

Once one becomes baptised into the Orthodox faith, one puts the "old man" aside, and becomes a "new man". Folk culture is all very well if it is not contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology, but sentiments such as it's probably an image they grew up with as did their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.is not at all enough to justify the perpetuation of images such as OL of Guadelupe in Orthodox Churches.


I don't think folk culture should be abandoned as it through ages was used to spread Christian faith and root it people's mind's. Recalling to non-Orthodox practises and beliefs was started by St. Paul and I don't think it should have been stopped. I also don't think that Theotokos pictured in Western style and without Christ is more non-canonical than 5 or 6 Bishops who rule over the Parishes in Mexico.

Quote
If the Mexican Orthodox faithful keep the image of Guadalupe, fine, but if they celebrate a feast for it or Juan Diego then that is a problem
My dear Andrew, you are missing a very large point. Even if a feast of OL of Guadelupe never eventuates (which it won't), iconography is, at its essence, liturgical as well as doctrinal. To have images in an Orthodox Church which do not have any basis in Orthodox doctrine, theology or liturgical tradition is simply wrong, no matter what "touchy-feely" spin anyone wants to put on it.

It's not the only one thing non-canonical. Thousand of Churches have non-canonical images, there are hundreds of practises which are against canons, but are common in modern Church's life. If such an image would encourage Mexicans to converting to Orthodoxy I would be first to vote for placing it in every Church in Mexico. Even St. Paul started from mentioning Greek gods while preaching in Athens.

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During Vespers and Matins, does not the priest at certain times circle the nave of the church, censing every icon? Ask yourself, what does this mean? Is this not a veneration of every saint and feast depicted on the walls (in mural, or as portable icons)? How, then, can the Guadelupe image, which is beyond question outside Orthodox tradition, and, to this day, has not been bestowed even a troparion or kontakion, let alone a Vespers and Matins service, be seen as fit to be present in an Orthodox church?

What prevents us from writing a troparion, kontakion or even an akathyst to that icon?
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« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2009, 07:30:50 AM »

Once one becomes baptised into the Orthodox faith, one puts the "old man" aside, and becomes a "new man". Folk culture is all very well if it is not contrary to Orthodox doctrine and theology, but sentiments such as it's probably an image they grew up with as did their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc.is not at all enough to justify the perpetuation of images such as OL of Guadelupe in Orthodox Churches.


I don't think folk culture should be abandoned as it through ages was used to spread Christian faith and root it people's mind's. Recalling to non-Orthodox practises and beliefs was started by St. Paul and I don't think it should have been stopped. I also don't think that Theotokos pictured in Western style and without Christ is more non-canonical than 5 or 6 Bishops who rule over the Parishes in Mexico.

Quote
If the Mexican Orthodox faithful keep the image of Guadalupe, fine, but if they celebrate a feast for it or Juan Diego then that is a problem
My dear Andrew, you are missing a very large point. Even if a feast of OL of Guadelupe never eventuates (which it won't), iconography is, at its essence, liturgical as well as doctrinal. To have images in an Orthodox Church which do not have any basis in Orthodox doctrine, theology or liturgical tradition is simply wrong, no matter what "touchy-feely" spin anyone wants to put on it.

It's not the only one thing non-canonical. Thousand of Churches have non-canonical images, there are hundreds of practises which are against canons, but are common in modern Church's life. If such an image would encourage Mexicans to converting to Orthodoxy I would be first to vote for placing it in every Church in Mexico. Even St. Paul started from mentioning Greek gods while preaching in Athens.

Quote
During Vespers and Matins, does not the priest at certain times circle the nave of the church, censing every icon? Ask yourself, what does this mean? Is this not a veneration of every saint and feast depicted on the walls (in mural, or as portable icons)? How, then, can the Guadelupe image, which is beyond question outside Orthodox tradition, and, to this day, has not been bestowed even a troparion or kontakion, let alone a Vespers and Matins service, be seen as fit to be present in an Orthodox church?

What prevents us from writing a troparion, kontakion or even an akathyst to that icon?


Its not part of orthodoxy ....These apparitions [lourds]Fatima]
Medugoije],,,Guadalupe and others are all false,,deceptions...Let the catholics chase after the false apparitions and make them part of there church belief if they want ....
At fullerton Ave and kennedy express way the people were venerating  a smudge they said was the virgin and creating a heavy traffic jam ,,


With some of these Apparitions and the messages they bring shelfs the old way and replaces it with some   new Revelation...i believe the sacred heart of jesus is celibrated a week after pasca the feast of feast and billed as a greater mercy,,pasca is shelved or made second or thrid place and new Revelation  of the sacred heart is advanced unknown to holy early church fathers Faith once delivered....

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« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2009, 09:51:29 AM »

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If the Mexican Orthodox faithful keep the image of Guadalupe, fine, but if they celebrate a feast for it or Juan Diego then that is a problem
My dear Andrew, you are missing a very large point. Even if a feast of OL of Guadelupe never eventuates (which it won't), iconography is, at its essence, liturgical as well as doctrinal. To have images in an Orthodox Church which do not have any basis in Orthodox doctrine, theology or liturgical tradition is simply wrong, no matter what "touchy-feely" spin anyone wants to put on it.

But do you see my point? It's not the only non-canonical icon that you find in churches. The God the Father icon is not Orthodox at all but how many churches do you think have them? I think there is a huge "touchy-feely" spin on those as well.

Quote
During Vespers and Matins, does not the priest at certain times circle the nave of the church, censing every icon? Ask yourself, what does this mean? Is this not a veneration of every saint and feast depicted on the walls (in mural, or as portable icons)? How, then, can the Guadelupe image, which is beyond question outside Orthodox tradition, and, to this day, has not been bestowed even a troparion or kontakion, let alone a Vespers and Matins service, be seen as fit to be present in an Orthodox church?

A priest will also cense an icon of God the Father too which is just as not part of Orthodox Tradition than Guadalupe is. Why can the Russians (and others) have their non-canonical icons of the Trinity if the Mexican Orthodox can't have Guadalupe?
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« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2009, 10:18:18 AM »

Why can the Russians (and others) have their non-canonical icons of the Trinity if the Mexican Orthodox can't have Guadalupe?
What's good for the goose is good for the Guadalupe.
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« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2009, 10:53:28 AM »

Why can the Russians (and others) have their non-canonical icons of the Trinity if the Mexican Orthodox can't have Guadalupe?
What's good for the goose is good for the Guadalupe.

Who said it's good for the goose? Two wrongs do not make a right the last time I checked.
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« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2009, 02:49:15 PM »

The scientist Dr. Orozco begins by claiming the image on the tilma  “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.” Sounds credible, no? After all, it's coming from a scientist. However, he also states: “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it, and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.” Did he scientifically prove this too?
Why is the assumption that for a scientist to be credible, he must be an atheist -- and making any sort of religious statement that doesn't ridicule God or the faithful is absolute taboo?!
That's not what ozgeorge said.  In truth, there's nothing saying that the only credible scientists are those who don't believe in God.  A scientist who is also a Christian can still be credible as a scientist, and a scientist can even speak of God doing something without this automatically being a scientific statement.  What I DO read ozgeorge as saying is that truly scientific statements can be based only on proper scientific research and can neither make religious statements nor draw upon the influence of religious statements.
First off, this isn't a research paper in a scientific journal -- he made a summary conclusion of this can't be explained by science. He finished with his statement that Our Lady visited. It should also be noted that this speech was given not at a scientific gathering either, but at a Marian Congress.

As for your last statement -- that truly scientific statements can be based only on proper scientific research and can neither make religious statements nor draw upon the influence of religious statements -- is an attitude and position I completely reject.
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« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2009, 02:50:47 PM »

Let me ask this question: if this had been painted by an Orthodox iconographer somewhere, would you have a problem with it being in an Orthodox church? why or why not?
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« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2009, 04:43:55 PM »

Let me ask this question: if this had been painted by an Orthodox iconographer somewhere, would you have a problem with it being in an Orthodox church? why or why not?

Yes, because the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe is not part of Orthodox Tradition. Just as the icons of God the Father that have been painted by Orthodox iconographers are heretical, it is not the writer of the icon that makes it canonical, but rather the subject matter being painted.


Any Orthodox "apparitions" of Our Lady (i.e. Pokrov/Skepe) have the Theotokos appearing as she has always been recognized; not as a Native American or any other form. She has appeared as a Jewish woman dressed in the manner that she dressed in 1st Century Israel. Also, in the case of the Pokrov, it was after many hours of the faithful beseaching her for her assistance from the oncoming attackers.

So whether an Orthodox iconographer was to paint the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe or not, this image would not be considered canonical in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2009, 05:05:22 PM »

Let me ask this question: if this had been painted by an Orthodox iconographer somewhere, would you have a problem with it being in an Orthodox church? why or why not?

Yes, because the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe is not part of Orthodox Tradition. Just as the icons of God the Father that have been painted by Orthodox iconographers are heretical, it is not the writer of the icon that makes it canonical, but rather the subject matter being painted.


Any Orthodox "apparitions" of Our Lady (i.e. Pokrov/Skepe) have the Theotokos appearing as she has always been recognized; not as a Native American or any other form. She has appeared as a Jewish woman dressed in the manner that she dressed in 1st Century Israel. Also, in the case of the Pokrov, it was after many hours of the faithful beseaching her for her assistance from the oncoming attackers.

So whether an Orthodox iconographer was to paint the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe or not, this image would not be considered canonical in the Orthodox Church.

What I meant was -- forget about the apparition for a moment. Imagine that there hadn't ever been an apparition in Mexico; but, it happens that an Orthodox iconographer created this icon, would you have an issue with it being in an Orthodox church?
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« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2009, 05:55:26 PM »

The scientist Dr. Orozco begins by claiming the image on the tilma  “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.” Sounds credible, no? After all, it's coming from a scientist. However, he also states: “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it, and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.” Did he scientifically prove this too?
Why is the assumption that for a scientist to be credible, he must be an atheist -- and making any sort of religious statement that doesn't ridicule God or the faithful is absolute taboo?!
Who said a scientist had to be an atheist?


And I question the quality of his research and scholarship when Dr. Orozco says of the plant fibres the tilma is made of: "the famous Mexican researcher Ernesto Sodi Pallares said that the species of the agave was Agave popotule Zacc but we don’t know how he reached this conclusion.”
Isn't science about demonstratable, measurable and repeatable results and data? If we don't know how someone reached a conclusion, then we don't know whether that conclusion is correct, accurate or true.
Do we even know if this researcher performed any decisive tests? It could be an expert's educated guess.[/quote]Educated guesses are not science.
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« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2009, 07:28:20 PM »

The very fact that this scientist is speaking at a pro Guadalupe conference also seems to be a little on the biased side.

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« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2009, 08:16:09 PM »

The plot thickens:

http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/prayer/akathists/OurLadyofGuadalupe.htm

"Some of these Akathists are familiar to Ukrainian Orthodox faithful (as listed below) while some have been composed by Alexander Roman, a longtime contributer to our site and are not served in Ukrainian Orthodox Churches.  Some are even dedicated to Saints and apparitions of the Theotokos which are part of the faith treasury of the Western Church.  They are published for your information and enjoyment."
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« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2009, 11:46:40 PM »

Why does Dr Alex Roman, who is a Greek Catholic, post on a web site called "Ukrainian Orthodoxy"? 

This is still not approved by any canonical Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #99 on: August 15, 2009, 12:47:24 AM »

As for your last statement -- that truly scientific statements can be based only on proper scientific research and can neither make religious statements nor draw upon the influence of religious statements -- is an attitude and position I completely reject.
Thankfully, the scientific community has not adopted your definition of science. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2009, 06:04:18 AM »

Why does Dr Alex Roman, who is a Greek Catholic, post on a web site called "Ukrainian Orthodoxy"? 

This is still not approved by any canonical Orthodox Church.

He owns the site.
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« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2009, 11:04:51 AM »

Why does Dr Alex Roman, who is a Greek Catholic, post on a web site called "Ukrainian Orthodoxy"? 

This is still not approved by any canonical Orthodox Church.

He owns the site.

owned   Cool
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« Reply #102 on: August 18, 2009, 10:22:33 PM »

Well, it's not only the Antiochian Orthodox in Mexico who have images of Our Lady of Guadualupe in their churchces. Check out this picture from the website of the Russian Orthodox patriarchal parish in Mexico.

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« Reply #103 on: August 18, 2009, 10:40:26 PM »


The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..


Are you aware that this custom also exists among Greek Orthodox pilgrims visiting the shrine of the miraculous icon of the Theotokos on the island of Tinos?

Here's the video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8203792.stm   

Note: the BBC reporter erroneously refers to the shrine of Guadalupe as "Guadalajara"
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« Reply #104 on: August 18, 2009, 10:47:29 PM »

Well, it's not only the Antiochian Orthodox in Mexico who have images of Our Lady of Guadualupe in their churches. Check out this picture from the website of the Russian Orthodox patriarchal parish in Mexico.



The mere presence of an uncanonical image in an Orthodox church does not confer canonical status to it, any more than images of God the Father as an old man that are present in so many Orthodox churches around the world, yet, over many centuries, this depiction has been repeatedly condemned as heretical by ecumenical and synodal council alike.
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« Reply #105 on: August 18, 2009, 10:54:42 PM »


The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..


Are you aware that this custom also exists among Greek Orthodox pilgrims visiting the shrine of the miraculous icon of the Theotokos on the island of Tinos?

Here's the video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8203792.stm   

Many of of the Greek islands, including Tinos, Rhodes, Zakynthos and Crete, having come under Venetian rule in the early 13th century, absorbed many liturgical and devotional customs common to the Roman Catholics, including such extreme practices of self-mortification.
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« Reply #106 on: August 18, 2009, 10:56:58 PM »

This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.
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« Reply #107 on: August 18, 2009, 11:15:24 PM »

My dear griegocatolico

Even if an Orthodox monk has painted such an image (which I doubt), he may well have painted it on commission to a Roman Catholic patron. Of course, this throws up a real dilemma: One of the major principles of any Orthodox iconographer, monastic or layman, is that he (or she) prepares themselves by prayer and fasting before beginning to paint an icon, and, once he has started to paint the icon, he is engaged in constant prayer to whichever saint is being painted. This includes praying the troparion and kontakion of the saint or feast he is painting. Is it proper that any Orthodox iconographer prays to a saint, feast or apparition which is not part of Orthodox tradition? I think not.

The troparion and kontakion of the image of Guadelupe is not part of Orthodox tradition. There is no feast dedicated to this image in any Orthodox calendar, Greek, Slavic or other variant, nor is there any mention of any troparia or kontakia to this image in any list of troparia or kontakia of the Orthodox Church. It is certain that the hymns you have provided are of Byzantine Catholic origin, not Orthodox. Try as anyone might wish for it to be so, Our Lady of Guadelupe is not, and cannot be, an image which can be properly venerated as an icon by Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #108 on: August 18, 2009, 11:47:35 PM »

Dera LBK,

Thank you for your reply. Smiley

Yes, the image was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk. I know his name and the monastery he belongs to (it is canonical), but I refrain from posting them . 

As for the kondak and tropar I posted, they were composed by an Orthodox Christian, not a Byzantine Catholic.  The tropar and kondak used by Byzantine Catholics for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe are not the same. You can see for yourself here:http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/MenaionDecember.pdf
 
As a Catholic of Mexican descent, I was very surprised to see images of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Orthodox churches. I myself have personally seen an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe hanging next to the front door of an Orthodox parish (OCA jusrisdiction).

You state that Our Lady of Guadelupe [sic] is not, and cannot be, an image which can be properly venerated as an icon by Orthodox Christians. I completely understand your position, but the fact remains (as evidenced by the photos posted) that images of Our Lady of Guadalupe can be found in Orthodox churches.

As to why that is the case, it best to contact those parishes which have the image- such as the Antiochian and Russian parishes in Mexico- for an explanation.

God bless you.  Smiley


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« Reply #109 on: August 18, 2009, 11:58:16 PM »

Dear griegocatolico

You wrote:

Quote
You state that Our Lady of Guadelupe [sic] is not, and cannot be, an image which can be properly venerated as an icon by Orthodox Christians. I completely understand your position, but the fact remains (as evidenced by the photos posted) that images of Our Lady of Guadalupe can be found in Orthodox churches.

As I have said before, the mere presence of an uncanonical image in an Orthodox church does not make it canonical. Having devoted many years to the study and practice of iconography, including writing at length on its various aspects, including on uncanonical images, it saddens me to say that while iconography is the most visible element of Orthodoxy which distinguishes it from all other faith traditions, it, after the better part of 2000 years, continues to be the least understood. Ignorance among laity can be excused to some degree, but ignorance among clergy is a different matter. One only needs to look at what has been allowed to be painted on the walls of one of the churches at New Skete monastery. Shameful.
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« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2009, 12:14:01 AM »

Dear griegocatolico

You wrote:

Quote
You state that Our Lady of Guadelupe [sic] is not, and cannot be, an image which can be properly venerated as an icon by Orthodox Christians. I completely understand your position, but the fact remains (as evidenced by the photos posted) that images of Our Lady of Guadalupe can be found in Orthodox churches.

As I have said before, the mere presence of an uncanonical image in an Orthodox church does not make it canonical. Having devoted many years to the study and practice of iconography, including writing at length on its various aspects, including on uncanonical images, it saddens me to say that while iconography is the most visible element of Orthodoxy which distinguishes it from all other faith traditions, it, after the better part of 2000 years, continues to be the least understood. Ignorance among laity can be excused to some degree, but ignorance among clergy is a different matter. One only needs to look at what has been allowed to be painted on the walls of one of the churches at New Skete monastery. Shameful.

All the more reason to ask for an explanation from those Orthodox priests who are allowing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to be enshrined in their parishes.

I will send an e-mail to the pastor of the OCA parish that had the image of OLG hanging from its front door and ask for his explanation.
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« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2009, 12:18:56 AM »

Quote
All the more reason to ask for an explanation from those Orthodox priests who are allowing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to be enshrined in their parishes.

I will send an e-mail to the pastor of the OCA parish that had the image of OLG hanging from its front door and ask for his explanation.

You do that, griegocatolico. And I'd be VERY interested to know what the response is.
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« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2009, 09:41:58 AM »

As for your last statement -- that truly scientific statements can be based only on proper scientific research and can neither make religious statements nor draw upon the influence of religious statements -- is an attitude and position I completely reject.
Thankfully, the scientific community has not adopted your definition of science. Roll Eyes
Yup, it would be asking too much for science to acknowledge its Author.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #113 on: August 19, 2009, 09:47:10 AM »

No one has answered my question yet, so I'll ask it again:

Imagine that there hadn't ever been an apparition in Mexico; but, it just so happens that an Orthodox iconographer created this icon, would you have an issue with it being in an Orthodox church?
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« Reply #114 on: August 19, 2009, 10:31:28 AM »

This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


I even have a Russian Orthodox icon catalog that used to sell this icon.


There are several tropars and kondaks written for the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here is an example:

Troparion—Tone 6

The peasant joyfully held open his cloak to contain roses growing out of season, most Holy Mother, and he quickly carried the flowers to his bishop. In just such a way, you joyfully opened yourself to contain the Babe, growing before you had known man. The flowers carried by the peasant formed an image of you on his cloak. The Child carried by you formed you into an image of His grace. Therefore we cry out to you, Rejoice, most holy Mother of God.

Kontakion—Tone 4

When Adam and Eve sinned, they were promised that one would come that would crush the serpent. The serpent fled to the west, into a land of people that did not know God. But the serpent was not hidden from the wrath of God, and the Child that you so lightly carried in your arms was too heavy for the serpent’s skull. Therefore, we cry out to you, pray for us, most holy Theotokos.

Another Kontakion, Tone 8. Special melody: Ti hypermacho:
The precious mantle * of your Protection * which once pious Andrew saw * as you revealed yourself * to him praying * in the Emp’ror’s city * is now seen by all the faithful in the Tilma of Tepeyac * from which falls God’s grace * like a shower of roses from paradise * that will crush the ancient serpent’s head * as we all sing to you: * Rejoice, O Virgin of Guadalupe.



He should be Defrocked booted out,also Must be a new calendar Greek under the ecumenical patriarch ....We don't need these type of monks that infect the pure orthodox faith with this garbage and heretical image ,,, though  Catholics have elevated her to a demi goddess or pagan goddess status,,,images of guadalupe ,lourds,fatima,testifiy to it.......
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« Reply #115 on: August 19, 2009, 12:03:22 PM »

This version of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was painted by a Greek Orthodox monk:


Oh, that is beautiful. 

Uncanonical, yes, but if there's anything worth "baptizing" into the Church for missionary purposes, this would be it.  Seriously, if Orthodox faithful in Mexico want to make any inroads, La Virgen has to be recognized, period.  And why would this be a stretch?

Sigh...I know, "Wow; the guy's starting seminary; wonder if they'll 'straighten him out' or if he'll fit right in as is"...seems to me that the story behind the Guadalupe apparition fits right in to how she is...comfort to the downtrodden, identification with the δουλοι, etc...that the material and colors are miraculously preserved is not a surprise to me.

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« Reply #116 on: August 19, 2009, 01:12:11 PM »

Ah "She who has vanquished the serpent" is a reference to St. Jerome's translation of Genesis 3:15. "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."
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« Reply #117 on: August 19, 2009, 01:21:29 PM »

http://orthodoxanswers.org/details.asp?ID=407

There's a bit on the New Skete situation here.
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« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2009, 01:46:59 PM »

Uncanonical, yes, but if there's anything worth "baptizing" into the Church for missionary purposes, this would be it.  Seriously, if Orthodox faithful in Mexico want to make any inroads, La Virgen has to be recognized, period.  And why would this be a stretch?

But wouldn't that be...ahem...poaching? Just what Catholics are always accused of on this forum? Just askin'....
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« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2009, 03:23:32 PM »

Uncanonical, yes, but if there's anything worth "baptizing" into the Church for missionary purposes, this would be it.  Seriously, if Orthodox faithful in Mexico want to make any inroads, La Virgen has to be recognized, period.  And why would this be a stretch?

But wouldn't that be...ahem...poaching? Just what Catholics are always accused of on this forum? Just askin'....
But do Catholics own Mexico the way Orthodox own this forum?
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« Reply #120 on: August 19, 2009, 03:25:38 PM »

http://orthodoxanswers.org/details.asp?ID=407

There's a bit on the New Skete situation here.

I don't know who wrote the answer to the query on New Skete, but I can assure you that what he says is quite wrong, and, indeed, damaging to Orthodoxy. The images of Dorothy Day, Mother Theresa and other non-Orthodox people referred to simply should not be there.
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« Reply #121 on: August 19, 2009, 03:57:45 PM »

The webmaster of orthodoxanswers.org is Laurent Cleenewerck, an OCA priest, and I'm assuming he wrote the reply himself. Oddly enough, he was my first introduction (lately) into Orthodoxy - at the time I was trying to find a translation of the bible that reflected the Orthodox tradition and grabbed a file of his website. Anyway, the site email is info@orthodoxanswers.org.
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« Reply #122 on: August 19, 2009, 08:09:53 PM »

Ah "She who has vanquished the serpent" is a reference to St. Jerome's mistranslation of Genesis 3:15. "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

Fixed it for you.
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« Reply #123 on: August 19, 2009, 08:33:30 PM »

Fixed it for you.

BTW the Nova Vulgata (the current official bible of the Catholic Church) has actually corrected that.
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« Reply #124 on: August 19, 2009, 08:49:55 PM »

No one has answered my question yet, so I'll ask it again:

Imagine that there hadn't ever been an apparition in Mexico; but, it just so happens that an Orthodox iconographer created this icon, would you have an issue with it being in an Orthodox church?

I've seen in an Orthodox Church (at least one), and only mildly have a problem with it:the icon doesn't have Christ in the icon, which is a problem for the canons of iconograpy.  But I've been told that supposedly in the image she is pregnant, so...

The nimbus is also a problem I believe:I've never seen on surrounding anyone but Christ.

The moon and sun things is also a problem, but I understand that they are painted on, and are not original.

Uncanonical, yes, but if there's anything worth "baptizing" into the Church for missionary purposes, this would be it.  Seriously, if Orthodox faithful in Mexico want to make any inroads, La Virgen has to be recognized, period.  And why would this be a stretch?

But wouldn't that be...ahem...poaching? Just what Catholics are always accused of on this forum? Just askin'....

When our parish came back from Project Mexico, they shared that the couple for whom they build a house were shocked when the priest came to bless it, and immediately asked him to marry them: they had not seen a priest any where their village ever, and couldn't afford the fee if they had.  (the priest didn't marry them because, they not being Orthodox, he had no authority to do so).  So we're supposed to meet neglect with neglect?

It has always amused me to put the Vatican's pronouncements on, say, Russia, next to those on the Protestants in Latin America.  The height of that was the Peruvian election of 1990 where the Vatican's bishops spoke out for Llosa, at best a lapsed Catholic who had an affair with his aunt (whom he dumped for a cousin), against the Vatican's loyal son Fujimori, because the latter had the support of the Pentacostals.

When the Orthodox try to recover properties they stole in the first place, or reconstitute hierachies they had established by force, in Mexico, then we can compare.
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« Reply #125 on: August 19, 2009, 08:52:01 PM »

Fixed it for you.

BTW the Nova Vulgata (the current official bible of the Catholic Church) has actually corrected that.

Yes, I'm aware of that.  But not before  Ineffabilis Deus used it.
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« Reply #126 on: August 20, 2009, 12:18:30 AM »


When our parish came back from Project Mexico, they shared that the couple for whom they build a house were shocked when the priest came to bless it, and immediately asked him to marry them: they had not seen a priest any where their village ever, and couldn't afford the fee if they had.  (the priest didn't marry them because, they not being Orthodox, he had no authority to do so).  So we're supposed to meet neglect with neglect?
So you're saying he should have married them?
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« Reply #127 on: August 20, 2009, 12:27:32 AM »

Ialmisry wrote:

Quote
The nimbus is also a problem I believe:I've never seen on surrounding anyone but Christ.

Indeed the mandorla is a problem, as it represents the uncreated light and glory of God. The Mother of God, though justifiably the most exalted of mortals, greater in honor than even the angels and heavenly hosts, and graced with Divinity in that she conceived and gave birth to the Son of God, is, nevertheless, fully human and mortal. She is not the source of this uncreated divine light, therefore she should not be portrayed in true icons surrounded by a mandorla.
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« Reply #128 on: August 20, 2009, 01:39:06 AM »

Ialmisry wrote:

Quote
The nimbus is also a problem I believe:I've never seen on surrounding anyone but Christ.

Indeed the mandorla is a problem, as it represents the uncreated light and glory of God. The Mother of God, though justifiably the most exalted of mortals, greater in honor than even the angels and heavenly hosts, and graced with Divinity in that she conceived and gave birth to the Son of God, is, nevertheless, fully human and mortal. She is not the source of this uncreated divine light, therefore she should not be portrayed in true icons surrounded by a mandorla.

It is a direct reference to Rev 12:1 -- ...a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet...

Anyways the mandorla, according to Orthodoxwiki: It is also used for the Mother of God in those cases when it has to represent her glory beyond the earthly plane.

Such as with this icon of the Dormition on a Greek Orthodox site.
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« Reply #129 on: August 20, 2009, 09:53:54 PM »

Some believe that Juan Diego never existed and therefore the picture is not of a supernatural character.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_12_129/ai_87869035/

This is one of those things where the church claims infallibility but this is a pill I've never chosen to swallow.

Do Orthodox venerate St. Philemona? This is a very early saint (venerated by the Cure d'Ars, John Vianney) for which there is a body of work challenging its historicity.


Well, Saint Juan Diego would not be the only native American whose existence has been doubted. What about Peter the Aleut?
 http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Peter_the_Aleut
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« Reply #130 on: August 20, 2009, 10:08:54 PM »


When our parish came back from Project Mexico, they shared that the couple for whom they build a house were shocked when the priest came to bless it, and immediately asked him to marry them: they had not seen a priest any where their village ever, and couldn't afford the fee if they had.  (the priest didn't marry them because, they not being Orthodox, he had no authority to do so).  So we're supposed to meet neglect with neglect?
So you're saying he should have married them?

Not my call. My priest said he would have chrismated them and married them.
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« Reply #131 on: August 20, 2009, 10:14:36 PM »

Ialmisry wrote:

Quote
The nimbus is also a problem I believe:I've never seen on surrounding anyone but Christ.

Indeed the mandorla is a problem, as it represents the uncreated light and glory of God. The Mother of God, though justifiably the most exalted of mortals, greater in honor than even the angels and heavenly hosts, and graced with Divinity in that she conceived and gave birth to the Son of God, is, nevertheless, fully human and mortal. She is not the source of this uncreated divine light, therefore she should not be portrayed in true icons surrounded by a mandorla.

It is a direct reference to Rev 12:1 -- ...a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet...

you mean the Vatican's inference. How early is it?

Rev. 12:2 contradicts the Fathers on the Theotokos.  I think we hashed this on CAF.

Quote
Anyways the mandorla, according to Orthodoxwiki: It is also used for the Mother of God in those cases when it has to represent her glory beyond the earthly plane.

Such as with this icon of the Dormition on a Greek Orthodox site.


I haven't seen this, say, on an icon of the Protection of the Theotokos.
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« Reply #132 on: August 20, 2009, 10:19:42 PM »

Some believe that Juan Diego never existed and therefore the picture is not of a supernatural character.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_12_129/ai_87869035/

This is one of those things where the church claims infallibility but this is a pill I've never chosen to swallow.

Do Orthodox venerate St. Philemona? This is a very early saint (venerated by the Cure d'Ars, John Vianney) for which there is a body of work challenging its historicity.


Well, Saint Juan Diego would not be the only native American whose existence has been doubted. What about Peter the Aleut?
 http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Peter_the_Aleut
Already hashed:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19775.0.html
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« Reply #133 on: August 21, 2009, 02:09:30 AM »

Ialmisry wrote:

Quote
The nimbus is also a problem I believe:I've never seen on surrounding anyone but Christ.

Indeed the mandorla is a problem, as it represents the uncreated light and glory of God. The Mother of God, though justifiably the most exalted of mortals, greater in honor than even the angels and heavenly hosts, and graced with Divinity in that she conceived and gave birth to the Son of God, is, nevertheless, fully human and mortal. She is not the source of this uncreated divine light, therefore she should not be portrayed in true icons surrounded by a mandorla.

It is a direct reference to Rev 12:1 -- ...a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet...

Anyways the mandorla, according to Orthodoxwiki: It is also used for the Mother of God in those cases when it has to represent her glory beyond the earthly plane.

Such as with this icon of the Dormition on a Greek Orthodox site.


This Dormition icon of Greek provenance is stylistically of post-17thC origin, and therefore of a time in iconographic history which had been greatly influenced by western trends in religious art. The presence of the Virgin in the upper section of the icon, with or without a mandorla, is somewhat superfluous to the doctrinal and theological meaning of the icon. If one looks at earlier versions of icons of the Dormition (of which I have seen many) prior to the time of western influence, the figure of the Mother of God surrounded by a mandorla is singularly absent. To quote from a post in the "Canonical Icons" thread:

Quote
The Multiplier of Wheat shows the Mother of God surrounded by a mandorla, an oval motif of rays and stars which represents the uncreated light and glory of God. This is a major error in iconography, as the Virgin, while, of course, partaking of the glory and life of God, is not divine herself. She does not generate this light. Christ alone may be depicted in this light, such as in icons of Christ in Majesty (Christ enthroned, surrounded by the bodiless hosts), the Transfiguration, the Dormition of His mother (where He is seen holding her soul in the form of a babe in swaddling clothes, surely one of the loveliest of iconographic motifs, and truly loaded with theological meaning), and in icons of the Mother of God of the Sign, where He, as Christ Emmanuel, is surrounded by a circular mandorla over His mother's body as she holds her arms raised in supplication. By contrast, a mandorla is often seen in western images (paintings and statues) of the Virgin, notably in Our Lady of Guadelupe.

Indeed, when one looks at the liturgical text of the Vigil to this feast, her exalted status above all mortals, and above the heavenly hosts, of the Mother of God, is inescapable. The iconography of the Dormition expresses this so eloquently, through the motif of Christ Himself holding His mother's soul, escorting it to heaven, not even entrusting it to "mere" angels, speaks volumes. So why try to falsely "gild the lily" with a mandorla which has no theological or doctrinal basis from the Orthodox tradition?
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« Reply #134 on: August 21, 2009, 06:51:18 AM »

Anyways the mandorla, according to Orthodoxwiki: It is also used for the Mother of God in those cases when it has to represent her glory beyond the earthly plane.

The mandorla is the shape created where two circles intersect:



In Iconography it is used to indicate the Incarnation, that is, where the Divine and the Human intersect. Thus it is a symbol about Christology. The Theotokos- she who is "Broarder than the Heavens"- was the Place God became Human, but she herself is not the Incarnation. The Mandorla in the Dormition Icon you posted is actually around Christ Who is receiving the soul of the Theotokos in His arms (a contrast with the Icon of the Theotokos holding the infant Christ).
Because the Mandorla is used to indicate the Incarnation (the intersection of the Divine and Human), it is uncanonical to use it as a symbol for the Theotokos alone, which is the main objection often cited against the Russian "Multiplier of Wheat" Icon of the Theotokos, but the Multiplier of Wheat Icon does not actually depict the Theotokos in a mandorla since the shape is not complete, and in fact it may actually be a an attempt at depicting "The Heavens opening":


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« Reply #135 on: August 21, 2009, 08:53:15 AM »

http://orthodoxanswers.org/details.asp?ID=407

There's a bit on the New Skete situation here.

I don't know who wrote the answer to the query on New Skete, but I can assure you that what he says is quite wrong, and, indeed, damaging to Orthodoxy. The images of Dorothy Day, Mother Theresa and other non-Orthodox people referred to simply should not be there.

Not to mention the claim that "New Skete also expresses one aspect of Orthodox ecclesiology that is often forgotten: that in spite of the schism, the Church of Rome remained 'the Church in Rome'" really flies in the face of Orthodox ecclesiology, it is not an expression of it.
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« Reply #136 on: August 21, 2009, 09:51:58 AM »


No one has answered my question yet, so I'll ask it again:

Imagine that there hadn't ever been an apparition in Mexico; but, it just so happens that an Orthodox iconographer created this icon, would you have an issue with it being in an Orthodox church?

Yes.  I would have an issue.

Most icons of the Theotokos depict her with the Child Jesus, or in an event that leads to our Salvation - the Entrance into the Temple, the Presentation of Christ (St. Symeon), the Nativity, etc.  In an icon that does not depict an event, the Virgin is usually holding the Christ Child, except for the Oranta or Pokrov. 

In all icons, she is always pointing us towards Christ and His Salvation.

This image of a woman standing on the clouds, with dark skin and looking somewhere off to the bottom right...has no meaning whatsoever.  She's not imploring, she's not advising, she's not teaching, she's definitely not pointing to Christ....

It's a pretty painting, of a pretty lady, in pretty robes.  That's all it is.

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« Reply #137 on: August 21, 2009, 10:12:36 AM »



This image of a woman standing on the clouds, with dark skin and looking somewhere off to the bottom right...has no meaning whatsoever.  She's not imploring, she's not advising, she's not teaching, she's definitely not pointing to Christ....

It's a pretty painting, of a pretty lady, in pretty robes.  That's all it is.



Exactly. And that's "all it is." Good summation.
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« Reply #138 on: August 22, 2009, 03:38:35 PM »


This image of a woman standing on the clouds, with dark skin and looking somewhere off to the bottom right...has no meaning whatsoever.  She's not imploring, she's not advising, she's not teaching, she's definitely not pointing to Christ....

It's a pretty painting, of a pretty lady, in pretty robes.  That's all it is.


The painting has plenty of meaning!  It the very reason why millions of native Mexicans became Catholic Christians. A native Mexican would immediately be able to read the symbolisms involved in the image. 

There are plenty of books and other resource materials that explain in detail the symbols found in the image. Please read them before making such an unsupportable statement.

Yes, the image is pretty, and full of meaning!
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« Reply #139 on: August 22, 2009, 04:16:32 PM »

Don't the mexicans, mix there pagan Goddess worship with the Vigin Mary or they see no difference , Like in Haiti Where Voodu is mixed with catholic saints ..Catholics did a great Job there converting ...Stop Chasing after These new Questionable apparitions That Bring strange Revalation and you interduce them in your Faith belief ,,How is orthodoxy ever going to unite with catholicisim with all this strange doctrine Thats become part of your faith even promoted by your popes ...

You really have drifted far from orthodoxy I pray we never unite ,until The roman church Cleans its house and throws all these new revelation into the dust bin,,and returns back to the ancient faith once delived unto salvation...God save us all...
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« Reply #140 on: August 22, 2009, 05:20:23 PM »

The EP is just a bishop with a special place of honor. Whatever he does is not representative of Orthodoxy as a whole, nor are we expected to "follow his lead" by any means. It's unfortunate that many in the general public see him as our "representative" whereas there is only one such representative, that is Christ through his Church.
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« Reply #141 on: August 23, 2009, 08:15:14 PM »

Yes.  I would have an issue.

Most icons of the Theotokos depict her with the Child Jesus, or in an event that leads to our Salvation - the Entrance into the Temple, the Presentation of Christ (St. Symeon), the Nativity, etc.  In an icon that does not depict an event, the Virgin is usually holding the Christ Child, except for the Oranta or Pokrov. 

In all icons, she is always pointing us towards Christ and His Salvation.

This image of a woman standing on the clouds, with dark skin and looking somewhere off to the bottom right...has no meaning whatsoever.  She's not imploring, she's not advising, she's not teaching, she's definitely not pointing to Christ....

It's a pretty painting, of a pretty lady, in pretty robes.  That's all it is.
In Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady is pregnant with Jesus. So, yes Jesus is there.
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« Reply #142 on: August 24, 2009, 09:57:04 AM »



This image of a woman standing on the clouds, with dark skin and looking somewhere off to the bottom right...has no meaning whatsoever.  She's not imploring, she's not advising, she's not teaching, she's definitely not pointing to Christ....

It's a pretty painting, of a pretty lady, in pretty robes.  That's all it is.


The painting has plenty of meaning!  It the very reason why millions of native Mexicans became Catholic Christians. A native Mexican would immediately be able to read the symbolisms involved in the image. 

There are plenty of books and other resource materials that explain in detail the symbols found in the image. Please read them before making such an unsupportable statement.

Yes, the image is pretty, and full of meaning!


Athanasios asked "would you have an issue with it being in an Orthodox church?"

Therefore, I do not have to "support" my statement.  He asked for an opinion and I gave it.

 

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« Reply #143 on: August 24, 2009, 12:28:11 PM »

Don't the mexicans, mix there pagan Goddess worship with the Vigin Mary or they see no difference , Like in Haiti Where Voodu is mixed with catholic saints ..Catholics did a great Job there converting ...

The problem is that's the exact same argument many Protestants would use against not only Catholics but us Orthodox as well. I don't think it's wise to take plays out of the Protestant anti-Catholic playbook. There are plenty of reasons Orthodoxy does not accept these apparitions without using the whole "merging goddess worship" argument invented by Protestants. I mean, if it's true for them, then historically it would be true of us as well. (it's obviously not true, but veneration, and in fact sometimes excess veneration (IMO) of the the Theotokos goes back to before the Great Schism)

Some would just as easily say the exact same thing about us, and some Protestants have said that in the merging of Paganism and Christianity "those Orthodox are WORSE than the Catholics."


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Stop Chasing after These new Questionable apparitions That Bring strange Revalation and you interduce them in your Faith belief

That's the biggest issue I have, that what we in the East see as "new" doctrines are confirmed by these visions. If it really was that easy or necessary, then why didn't the Virgin Mary appear at the 7 Councils to tell the Church what was true and what wasn't? Why such a need now? I realize the Catholics have an answer for that (and I've heard several over the years) but I just don't accept those explanations.

With that said, I personally do believe that some of the Western Apparitions of the Theotokos are indeed legit, I'm just not sure that the Church's interpretation of them is correct.

with that said I know nothing about Guadaloupe and have found this thread quite interesting.

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« Reply #144 on: August 24, 2009, 12:45:29 PM »




Any Orthodox "apparitions" of Our Lady (i.e. Pokrov/Skepe) have the Theotokos appearing as she has always been recognized; not as a Native American or any other form. She has appeared as a Jewish woman dressed in the manner that she dressed in 1st Century Israel.

I'n my experience very few Orthodox Icons portray Mary as a 1st century Jewish peasant girl/woman. Which icons are you referring to? Most Icons I've seen show here as a Greek looking woman with blue and red robes. (I don't think Mary wore blue and red robes in 1st century Palestine). With that said, most of our saints' Icons aren't historically accurate either. Holy Transfiguration Monastery has an Icon of St. Patrick of Ireland, except he looks exactly like a modern day Greek monk on Mt. Athos, not an ancient Celt. (complete with a long grey beard, (very much like a St. Nektarios actually. Cheesy) The only way this icon says "St. Patrick" is that he's dressed in green. No where in the Iconographic tradition of the historical Church is Patrick portrayed with a long grey beard like an Eastern monk, but this Icons does. Yet there are Orthodox Icons that portray him in line with the historical tradition of what he looked like, (even if he really didn't look like that, there is a tradition that goes back close to his time) and he's immediately recognizable as St. Patrick.

The same is true of many, if not most of our saints' iconography. Plenty of Russian Icons show Greek saints looking a  bit too Russian, and vice versa. And almost no Icons show any Jewish saints looking as though they were in any way Jewish. It's true the West took this modification even further, but have you ever seen an Icon of Jesus with a beard, SHORT hair, (the long haired Jesus is up for question) prayer shawl and phylactery? lol! me either! :-) But it's likely He at least a a few times looked like that. The Sinai Icon of Christ is the most "Jewish" one I've seen and even it is already tending towards a greekification in some respects. But does it matter? Christ came to ALL of humanity, and early Christian icons portrayed him as a beardless Roman youth. Although I guess an argument could be made that Christ, being our Salvation "could" be portrayed as any ethnic identity, (which I would agree with since he's been portrayed as a Greek, Russian, Scandinavian etc all in Orthodox Iconography over the centuries, why stop with European descent?) it's harder to say that of the saints. if a saint was historically Jewish, then they should look Jewish, or Irish or English etc...except this is not the case in Orthodoxy. So I don't see how we can challenge Rome on this issue when WE don't even follow what we're preaching.

Someone else mentioned the Icons of the Father God, which is a totally different issue as Councils and Canons have forbidden that, so we KNOW what is right and wrong....but the "ethnicity" of a saint, while I would agree, should be historically accurate, is not consistent within Orthodoxy and so I have a hard time telling Catholics they're doing it wrong. Because if they are, then we are too.

My Church has a Pantocrator that looks VERY Greek, and the old one He looked VERY Scandinavian. But when we switched I said "well He at least looks more Jewish than the old one, at least this time He's medditaranean!" Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy





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« Reply #145 on: August 24, 2009, 01:15:38 PM »

That's the biggest issue I have, that what we in the East see as "new" doctrines are confirmed by these visions. If it really was that easy or necessary, then why didn't the Virgin Mary appear at the 7 Councils to tell the Church what was true and what wasn't? Why such a need now? I realize the Catholics have an answer for that (and I've heard several over the years) but I just don't accept those explanations.

Which ones are you thinking about? The only one that could be said to "confirm" any post-schism doctrine (as far as I know) is Our Lady of Lourdes who said, almost in passing, "I am the Immaculate Conception". But, that still was far from the primary message of Lourdes.
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« Reply #146 on: August 24, 2009, 01:23:53 PM »



With that said, I personally do believe that some of the Western Apparitions of the Theotokos are indeed legit, I'm just not sure that the Church's interpretation of them is correct.



However, we are also taught to be wary of apparitions and "miracles".  They do not all come from God, but, may be meant to mislead us.

That's why the Orthodox Church prefers to "negate" a miracle, rather than erroneously accept it and get misled.


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« Reply #147 on: August 24, 2009, 01:26:53 PM »


However, we are also taught to be wary of apparitions and "miracles".  They do not all come from God, but, may be meant to mislead us.

That's why the Orthodox Church prefers to "negate" a miracle, rather than erroneously accept it and get misled.

The Catholic Church also is very cautious and diligent in examining alleged apparitions and miracles.
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« Reply #148 on: August 24, 2009, 01:51:55 PM »

E. Michael Jones reports that Rome is finally cracking down on Medjugorje. Why? Benedict XVI is now pope and he never believed. There's some good stuff in there about the historical amnesia practiced by the local Franciscans re: WWII.

http://sanctepater.blogspot.com/2009/08/e-michael-jones-interview-medjugorje.html
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« Reply #149 on: August 24, 2009, 04:44:08 PM »

Uncanonical, yes, but if there's anything worth "baptizing" into the Church for missionary purposes, this would be it.  Seriously, if Orthodox faithful in Mexico want to make any inroads, La Virgen has to be recognized, period.

I think this comment bothers me the most of any on this thread, David. 

It seems to me that any endeavor based on a lie is doomed to failure, especially when it concerns matters of faith.  Trying to bring Mexico to the true faith by tolerating or encouraging the cult of the "Virgin" of Guadalupe would be ultimately self-defeating.  If it were successful, they would be "converted"... but to what?  A syncretic pidgin kind of religion, based on Orthodoxy but adulterated with so many impurities as to make it unrecognizable?  The goal must be to enlighten the people of Mexico (and all nations), not secure a nominal allegiance to Orthodoxy while tolerating aberrations that detract from the faith.  The "Virgin," and the false miracles and legend surrounding it, cannot be a part of bringing Mexico to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #150 on: August 25, 2009, 02:06:10 PM »

Don't the mexicans, mix there pagan Goddess worship with the Vigin Mary or they see no difference , Like in Haiti Where Voodu is mixed with catholic saints ..Catholics did a great Job there converting ...Stop Chasing after These new Questionable apparitions That Bring strange Revalation and you interduce them in your Faith belief ,,How is orthodoxy ever going to unite with catholicisim with all this strange doctrine Thats become part of your faith even promoted by your popes ...

You really have drifted far from orthodoxy I pray we never unite ,until The roman church Cleans its house and throws all these new revelation into the dust bin,,and returns back to the ancient faith once delived unto salvation...God save us all...
Wow. You think this is just something mexicans do? Yeah, you are right. We all just mix marry with goddess. NOT!!! What nonsense!!! What racism!
There may be a very small minority of Latinos who do this but the Vast majority of hispanics/latinos worship only the undivided Trinity.
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« Reply #151 on: August 25, 2009, 04:03:29 PM »

The "Virgin," and the false miracles and legend surrounding it, cannot be a part of bringing Mexico to Orthodoxy.
But this sentiment can only be built on a foundation of belief that the Guadalupe Apparition of the Virgin and all the miracles surrounding it are false, maybe even demonic.  How can you say this with any authority?  Because it happened outside the Orthodox Church?  Yes, we alone proclaim the fullness of truth without error, but does that mean that we hold a monopoly on Truth?  Cannot Christ and His holy Mother work outside the boundaries of the Orthodox Church to bring salvation even to those outside our walls?
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« Reply #152 on: August 25, 2009, 05:26:00 PM »

That's the biggest issue I have, that what we in the East see as "new" doctrines are confirmed by these visions. If it really was that easy or necessary, then why didn't the Virgin Mary appear at the 7 Councils to tell the Church what was true and what wasn't? Why such a need now? I realize the Catholics have an answer for that (and I've heard several over the years) but I just don't accept those explanations.

Which ones are you thinking about? The only one that could be said to "confirm" any post-schism doctrine (as far as I know) is Our Lady of Lourdes who said, almost in passing, "I am the Immaculate Conception". But, that still was far from the primary message of Lourdes.

Athanasios,

yes it was Lourdes I was thinking about. And my thoughts and words were not exactly what I meant, at least in retrospect. You're right, she did say "I am the Immaculate Conception" and like you I feel it was almost said in passing, not the main point by far of what was going on. (considering we call her All Immaculate, again I see no controversy between East and West, just the interpretation of those words)


However what I meant was, (and I think what some Orthodox object to, and the reason why many Orthodox write off these apparitions completely) is because some Catholic apologists or "super devout" Catholics (and yes we have "super devout" Orthodox too) portray it as some defining moment in Catholic theology/history. A way of "proving" us Orthodox are all heretical, wrong, disobedient to Rome, and in schism,  after all Mary told us what the absolute truth of this DOGMA is, loud and clear and that should settle it. After all that's what Lourdes was all about, the IC. (or so they might say)

Now, I realize that's not really what happened at Lourdes, but it is how some Catholics portray/interprete the event. And then use it to as some "proof" Rome is right and the East has got it all wrong. (I had this debate once with a Catholic, who happened to be formerly Orthodox, so he probably had some bone to pick)

When I said I accept Lourdes personally he asked, "then why aren't you Catholic, after all, she PROVED we are the true Church"...(or something to that effect). I think in part, that's why some Orthodox outright reject these apparitions because some Catholic apologist internet hack, or someone they know uses it as a "proof", even though the Church itself doesn't use them as proofs of anything. And frankly we Orthodox don't take the time to go and look into these events for ourselves and so we just assume what some apologist says is true. But it's not always true sadly.

That's what I meant, not so much the events themselves I have a problem with (because as I said I have no problem accepting Lourdes and in fact would love to go there some day), I only reject a certain interpretation of that apparition which as you pointed out, has little to do with the IC to begin with.

Probably like the way most Catholics accept the Holy Fire, and yet don't simply assume that "proves" EOy is the "only true Church"

I just don't like miracles being used in such negative terms like "we're right, you're wrong". Miracles should help bring people to faith, strengthen faith that is weak, and in some cases heal people physically or spiritually, or in other cases may just reaffirm what someone believes already...in the end they should ultimately point people to CHRIST, but I think using them to prove East vs West arguments is NOT what the Blessed Mother had in mind at Lourdes, or in Egypt, or in Russia or anywhere else she might have appeared. Not that you were doing that, this is just a generalization and trying to put my post into a wider context.

With that said, I realize that was NOT the intent of this thread in the beginning (to prove EOy was "wrong") but rather to simply give encouragement and hope to people. So I'm not accusing anyone of that at all. Only trying to explain that I think that because a few Catholics use these apparitions in that manner (as Orthodox do with weeping icons, Holy Fire etc) is the reason so many Orthodox outright reject them as "pagan Goddesses" etc...(which I find odd considering Pagan Goddesses do not exist, according to St. Paul but what do I know? LOL!)

Hope that's a little more clear.



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« Reply #153 on: August 27, 2009, 01:17:49 AM »

Coming soon, the story of Guadalupe, from the screen-writer of Basic Instinct...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090806/ap_en_mo/us_people_joe_eszterhas
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« Reply #154 on: September 17, 2009, 03:54:41 AM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..For our Holy Mother to deceive the Indians just to convert them just doesn't seem right to me...
That's why i don't believe in that apparition or in that image build on deceit...seem to me like satan's handy work...

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..

Christ himself empowered the apostles to go out and preach and convert the people in the world ....Im sure he would of mentioned that he would be sending  his Holy Mother in the future masquerading as a pagan goddess to convert by deception... Oh wait he did warn us about satans deceptions...

St. Paul said the law is written on our hearts, even the hearts of pagans.  So is it possible the Theotokos really did appear in Mexico to push the people in the right direction, because they had gotten so close on their own volition?

To me this seems very similar to the situation in Athens with the statue "TO AN UNKNOWN GOD".

I believe people must be naturally wired for Christianity, and that explains why so many pagan religions have aspects that match Christianity, because people are reaching out for our faith. In the absence of the fullness we know, they do the best they can and make it up on their own. Some get closer than others. Is this a reasonable belief?

I realize it spurred a growth of Catholicism and not Orthodoxy, and maybe I still have some Protestant Christian-universalism I have to work out of me, but it just doesn't seem like the incarnate evil that some are making it into. MAybe I'm way off base.  I am open to correction.
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« Reply #155 on: September 17, 2009, 06:55:32 AM »

It wasn't a statue but a altar, to the unknown God ,and it didn't speak,but the Blessed St. Paul did as he was sent into the world by Christ Our Lord ,to do what he was ordained to do and Guided in the power of the Holy Spirit....Amen Amen
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« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2009, 07:43:05 PM »

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All the more reason to ask for an explanation from those Orthodox priests who are allowing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe to be enshrined in their parishes.

I will send an e-mail to the pastor of the OCA parish that had the image of OLG hanging from its front door and ask for his explanation.

You do that, griegocatolico. And I'd be VERY interested to know what the response is.

LBK,

I finally received a response to the e-mail I sent to the pastor of the Orthodox parish that once had an image of OL of Guadalupe hanging beside the main entrance of their church.

This is basically what he said:

The parish is located in a neighborhood with gangs. The parishioners placed the image of OL of Guadalupe on the front of the church with the hope that the gangs would respect the church property.

When there was a change of pastors, the new pastor took down the image and replaced it with an  icon of the parish's parton saint.
 
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« Reply #157 on: October 28, 2009, 09:12:30 PM »

^Interesting. Thanks for taking the trouble to follow this up griego catolico.
Coming from Australia, I'm curious though why an image of OL of Guadalupe would protect church property from gangs while another Icon of the theotokos or simply the Cross would not.
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« Reply #158 on: October 28, 2009, 09:17:07 PM »

^Interesting. Thanks for taking the trouble to follow this up griego catolico.
Coming from Australia, I'm curious though why an image of OL of Guadalupe would protect church property from gangs while another Icon of the theotokos or simply the Cross would not.

It goes to show just how powerful the image of OLoG is to Hispanic culture.  If this particular church is in an area where Hispanic gangs are the norm, it is very probable that the respect the gang members have for this image would lead them to not vandalize or otherwise bother the church or its members.  I really, truly think that far too many people simply do not understand how powerful this image is to Hispanics in general and to Mexicans in particular. 
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« Reply #159 on: October 28, 2009, 09:38:52 PM »

^Interesting. Thanks for taking the trouble to follow this up griego catolico.
Coming from Australia, I'm curious though why an image of OL of Guadalupe would protect church property from gangs while another Icon of the theotokos or simply the Cross would not.

It goes to show just how powerful the image of OLoG is to Hispanic culture.  If this particular church is in an area where Hispanic gangs are the norm, it is very probable that the respect the gang members have for this image would lead them to not vandalize or otherwise bother the church or its members.  I really, truly think that far too many people simply do not understand how powerful this image is to Hispanics in general and to Mexicans in particular. 
Thanks Schultz. I guess, being such a powerful image in Mexican culture, the temptation to use it in Orthodox missionary work would be strong. Its a difficult balance to strike though, I think. Respect for a people's culture does not always mean that the fishers of men can use it as bait for their hooks. I think sometimes its more disrespectful to a people's culture to simply "use" aspects of it for an agenda.
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« Reply #160 on: October 28, 2009, 09:54:17 PM »

No problem, ozgeorge!  My wife is fascinated with all things Mexican and especially things relating to OLoG. 

You are also absolutely right in how we must be careful in using cultural icons (no pun intended) to spread the Good News. 
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« Reply #161 on: October 29, 2009, 12:17:34 AM »

It would be hard to overstate it! And not just for Mexicans. The Holy See named her Patroness of the Americas, which means that the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe has the rank of solemnity throughout North and South America.

The Knights of Columbus have a great devotion to OLG, and our Supreme Knight, Card Anderson, has led the way in promoting devotion to her.
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« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2009, 12:18:05 AM »

Hi, some comments are quite uncharitable and show a very poor knowledge of history.

Before the European landing in Mexico, there was no nation, there's no such a thing as an Indian or Aztec nation.

In the north of the country cannibalism and absolute barbarism prevailed, as well as nomadism. In the center it was a little bit better, we had city-states. Life was very primitive, in spite of the advanced astronomy and science, suffice it to say that the wheel hadn't been invented here.

The Indians were not a nation, they were a collection of nomads, tribes whose lifestyles were very cruel: children were sacrificed to demons, people were tortured to death to satisfy the needs of those false gods.

The fact that the Spanish came here was a blessing. They were cruel too, granted, but at least they preached a religion of love, the preached the word of God. The Indians had to be civilized, they weren't prepared for self rule, they were savages. The Spanish actually saved the lives of many and brought a Christian way of life (thigs were unfair here, poverty, lack of social equality, cruel punishments, inquisition: but it was like that everywhere in the world at that time).

The Hispanic founders of our country even gave us their blood for the foundation of a new nation and a new people. On the other side, for the average Anglo-Protestant conqueror in North America, materialism and economic development was their main intention, religion was a white issue and the vast majority of Indians were simply terminated.

The liberal and Communist historians, all imposed by the masonic lodges brought by Poinsett in the 1800's to destroy our Christian empire, created their own history and founded the ideology called "indigenism" which only divides the nation and insults all what is Christian.

I don't mean that the Spanish religious practices are holy, after all they do have the errors of Romanism, but we can't generalize. If there's false religious pity and unholy syncretism it isn't because of the Spanish. It's because the masonic and communist regimes expelled the Roman clergy, religion was no longer preached and "religious needs" could not be met, idolatry and paganism reappeared because faith was week and ignorance prevailed.

Our Lady of Guadalupe is revered by the Orthodox in Mexico, but we don't get involved in the issue of the apparitions. For both Orthodox and Catholics it's not obligatory to believe them. However, I do not trust who deny the apparitions, most of them are communist subjects (such as Guillermo Schulemburg, the former abbot of the RC Bassilica who was a puppet of the Mexican PRI government and an agent of the East German State).

I don't see any serious reason to say that "the image comes from the devil". This is absurd, some authors have analysed the meanings of each symbol in the image and I haven't seen any which could be seen as contradicting Orthodox doctrine.

This is a national symbol. It's a national symbol because it reconciled our Christian and Hispanic identity with our indigenous past and all what was positive in it. Only a Mexican can really understand this, so I am not against those who believe it's wrong to revere this icon. Is it our fault that Orthodoxy did not come first to our country?
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« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2009, 12:39:39 AM »

Quote
It goes to show just how powerful the image of OLoG is to Hispanic culture.  If this particular church is in an area where Hispanic gangs are the norm, it is very probable that the respect the gang members have for this image would lead them to not vandalize or otherwise bother the church or its members.


While I can now understand why the image of OLG was placed at an Orthodox church, I am relieved by the fact that the image has now been replaced with an Orthodox alternative.

In the city where I live, there is a truly beautiful Russian church built in traditional Novgorodian (11th-14thC) style. Green roof, blue cupola with gold stars, green belltower roof, gold crosses on the cupola, belltower, and the small gold onion dome over the apse above the altar. The walls, some 40 feet high, are painted white, as is the fence. An architectural and ecclesiastical gem. Yet, in the more than forty years since this church was built, and particularly in more recent years, according to the former warden of this church who is a very close friend of mine, and whose parents and grandparents helped build the church, there has been no instance of desecration or graffiti in all that time. Not one. Huge areas of lovely white walls for spraycan artists to do their stuff, yet it's been left well alone. I'm told it's because of the diligence of this church's patron saint and of the Mother of God. Sounds good enough to me!
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« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2009, 01:30:51 AM »

It would be hard to overstate it! And not just for Mexicans. The Holy See named her Patroness of the Americas, which means that the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe has the rank of solemnity throughout North and South America.

The Knights of Columbus have a great devotion to OLG, and our Supreme Knight, Card Anderson, has led the way in promoting devotion to her.

Actually, it has the rank of feast in the Americas.   Read here: http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/innews/699.shtml

Mexico and Guatemala celebrate it as a solemnity.
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« Reply #165 on: October 29, 2009, 03:49:05 AM »

This is a national symbol. It's a national symbol because it reconciled our Christian and Hispanic identity with our indigenous past and all what was positive in it. Only a Mexican can really understand this, so I am not against those who believe it's wrong to revere this icon. Is it our fault that Orthodoxy did not come first to our country?

Thank you for your post Mexican, and I realize I have only extracted a small portion of it here.
Given that the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is such an important image to Mexican cultural identity, I wonder how you feel about what I said in reply #159. As a Mexican, would you have felt insulted or patronized if Orthodox Missionaries had used the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Icons as a way of evangelizing Mexico? I think it is different if the Icon version comes from Mexican Orthodox Christians themselves rather than being used as a "brand name" by non-Mexican missionaries. Am I way off with this?
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« Reply #166 on: October 29, 2009, 09:40:57 AM »

This is a national symbol. It's a national symbol because it reconciled our Christian and Hispanic identity with our indigenous past and all what was positive in it. Only a Mexican can really understand this, so I am not against those who believe it's wrong to revere this icon. Is it our fault that Orthodoxy did not come first to our country?

Thank you for your post Mexican, and I realize I have only extracted a small portion of it here.
Given that the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is such an important image to Mexican cultural identity, I wonder how you feel about what I said in reply #159. As a Mexican, would you have felt insulted or patronized if Orthodox Missionaries had used the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Icons as a way of evangelizing Mexico? I think it is different if the Icon version comes from Mexican Orthodox Christians themselves rather than being used as a "brand name" by non-Mexican missionaries. Am I way off with this?
As a hispanic Christain from New Mexico, the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is of extreme importance. I think its great that we choose to use this image to venerate our Lady. However, if some non-Catholic Group came into my area of the country and started to use the image as a way to convert Catholics to their religion, I would be furious. You see this kind of behavior in south america where protestant Churches will have statues of Mary (even though they don't venerate her) in order to give their churches a more Catholic feel so that it is easier to steel sheep from the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #167 on: November 06, 2009, 01:23:40 PM »

This is a national symbol. It's a national symbol because it reconciled our Christian and Hispanic identity with our indigenous past and all what was positive in it. Only a Mexican can really understand this, so I am not against those who believe it's wrong to revere this icon. Is it our fault that Orthodoxy did not come first to our country?

Thank you for your post Mexican, and I realize I have only extracted a small portion of it here.
Given that the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is such an important image to Mexican cultural identity, I wonder how you feel about what I said in reply #159. As a Mexican, would you have felt insulted or patronized if Orthodox Missionaries had used the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Icons as a way of evangelizing Mexico? I think it is different if the Icon version comes from Mexican Orthodox Christians themselves rather than being used as a "brand name" by non-Mexican missionaries. Am I way off with this?
As a hispanic Christain from New Mexico, the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is of extreme importance. I think its great that we choose to use this image to venerate our Lady. However, if some non-Catholic Group came into my area of the country and started to use the image as a way to convert Catholics to their religion, I would be furious. You see this kind of behavior in south america where protestant Churches will have statues of Mary (even though they don't venerate her) in order to give their churches a more Catholic feel so that it is easier to steel sheep from the Catholic Church.
Is your objection to the Orthodox making Icons of  OL of Guadalupe because it is a Symbol of Roman Catholicism?
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« Reply #168 on: November 06, 2009, 01:45:11 PM »

This is a national symbol. It's a national symbol because it reconciled our Christian and Hispanic identity with our indigenous past and all what was positive in it. Only a Mexican can really understand this, so I am not against those who believe it's wrong to revere this icon. Is it our fault that Orthodoxy did not come first to our country?

Thank you for your post Mexican, and I realize I have only extracted a small portion of it here.
Given that the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is such an important image to Mexican cultural identity, I wonder how you feel about what I said in reply #159. As a Mexican, would you have felt insulted or patronized if Orthodox Missionaries had used the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Icons as a way of evangelizing Mexico? I think it is different if the Icon version comes from Mexican Orthodox Christians themselves rather than being used as a "brand name" by non-Mexican missionaries. Am I way off with this?
As a hispanic Christain from New Mexico, the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is of extreme importance. I think its great that we choose to use this image to venerate our Lady. However, if some non-Catholic Group came into my area of the country and started to use the image as a way to convert Catholics to their religion, I would be furious. You see this kind of behavior in south america where protestant Churches will have statues of Mary (even though they don't venerate her) in order to give their churches a more Catholic feel so that it is easier to steel sheep from the Catholic Church.
Is your objection to the Orthodox making Icons of  OL of Guadalupe because it is a Symbol of Roman Catholicism?
It depends on how it would be used I suppose. If it were used to try and take Catholics out of the Church then it would bother me. However, The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church share so much in common when it comes to the veneration of Our Lady that in a sense I would be pleased to see EOs honoring Our Lady of Guadalupe. Its kind of a complicated situation.
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« Reply #169 on: August 04, 2012, 11:24:59 PM »

I don't see any problem with having the painting in the Monastery of St. Anthony in Mexico. I don't think it has to be removed. I don't see the Russian Church running to remove all the heretical paintings from Christ the Savior Cathedral or any other church for that matter which have absolutely no Orthodox origin same with some paintings I've seen in Serbia also. And their are a ton of churches that have Davinci's Last Supper in it; where is that in Orthodox tradition? Our Lady of Guadalupe is a symbol for the Mexican people and if they want to keep it then fine if it brings them closer to God.

Excellent post Andrew.  Yes, the Icon of OLofG is in the main Orthodox Cathedral in Mexico City and I believe in other Orthodox churches in Mexico as well.  If this brings one closer to God how can this be wrong???
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« Reply #170 on: August 05, 2012, 01:18:46 PM »

If you read the link I posted earlier, the stories on the supernatural origins of the painting appeared many years after the introduction of the image. Looked at it from that point of view, it's a pious image that took on an "apparitional" meaning after the fact. The same can be said for the origins of the Dominican rosary. A pious custom that became blessed, I think decades, after the fact, with a story ascribed to St. Dominic. The online 1913 Catholic encyclopedia actually has very good (non-supernatural) descriptions of a great many Catholic customs, largely from Jesuit Herbert Thurston. Much of this phenomenon is an expression of "popular catholicism" that later (theologically modified) was made acceptable practice for believers. The brown scapular is another pious devotion - the church had to invent an entire theology that said it was not, in fact, a "ticket to heaven" notwithstanding the legendary promise associated with it. The St. Benedict is another popular sacramental with legendary promises associated with it.

Having an Italian on the seat of Peter helped give an official imprimatur to a lot of Marian devotions which were popular in places like Italy, Spain or Poland.

Anyway, to get back to the main topic, I personally do not believe there is anything supernatural in character to the Guadalupe image. There's nothing wrong with it, but I don't believe there's a Juan Diego, any more than I subscribe to the legends associated with the origins of the rosary. The problem is that if you have sympathetic people in the higher ups of the church, it tends to push the skeptics to the side, which is why (for me) Juan Diego's canonization is problematic, because it canonizes the entire legend associated with the image.

So you believe then that all the Native Americans in Central and South America gave up their pagan faiths and their human sacrifices for the faith  of the hated Spaniards, without it being a movement of the Holy Spirit?  Interesting!   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #171 on: December 17, 2012, 03:33:09 PM »

Saint Paul used a pagan temple to preach the Lord's word. Why can't the Holy Theotokos use elements of the indians' believes to preach her Son's word? I'm not saying the Virgin of the Guadalupe is or not real, as I don't think I can discern that. I'm saying that if a pagan group was moved to believe in the Holy Trinity, the devil couldn't have something to do with it....or at least his plan went very wrong. angel
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« Reply #172 on: December 17, 2012, 10:00:13 PM »

Wakin' up a lot of old threads here, Wilma!

Not that there's anything wrong with that.  Cool

Just funny how these old threads I poured over two, three, four+ years ago are suddenly popping back up!
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« Reply #173 on: December 18, 2012, 07:42:27 PM »


I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........

And you, of course, have the clairvoyance of an elder to know what is in the heart of "the mexicans and tourists that go there"?  What proof do you have that they do these things out of a desire to "appeace an angry God Or Goddess" and not out of some sort of a desire to bring their bodies in line with the spirit, ala St. Paul?

Until you can present some proof of your accusations, you, my friend, are just bearing false witness...or maybe just baring your omnipresent anti-Catholic sentiments once again?

Thank you sir !   Well put.

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« Reply #174 on: December 18, 2012, 07:46:46 PM »

Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.
Yeah, but there's nothing to prevent Eastern Christians from being Latino-ized.

Good grief  !!!
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« Reply #175 on: December 18, 2012, 07:51:38 PM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.

Careful.  Sounds like clairvoyance.  Dabbling in stuff like this sounds troublesome to me.  Nutty actually.

Viking
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. Wink


I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
How do you know their motivations?  Have you been blessed with the gift of telepathy?



  No! ...


Second Sight though,,, this is what i call it, I can tell things  like who will die also other things that my car was going to be hit i knew in what area and what part of the car was going to be damaged be fore it all happened... ...
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« Reply #176 on: December 18, 2012, 08:30:09 PM »

I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.

Careful.  Sounds like clairvoyance.  Dabbling in stuff like this sounds troublesome to me.  Nutty actually.

Viking
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. Wink


I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
How do you know their motivations?  Have you been blessed with the gift of telepathy?



  No! ...


Second Sight though,,, this is what i call it, I can tell things  like who will die also other things that my car was going to be hit i knew in what area and what part of the car was going to be damaged be fore it all happened... ...


Meant to put this here.   Careful.  Sounds like clairvoyance.  Dabbling in stuff like this sounds troublesome to me.  Nutty actually.

Viking
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