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Author Topic: Reparative Therapy is Dangerous to Christian Therapists  (Read 17681 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2009, 02:23:01 PM »

The term "Lay people" used here would include anyone who is not a psychologist/psychiatrist and that would include lawyers and clergy.
The unfortunate thing about this thread and this usually happens when discussing homosexuality is that it become relatively banal and filled with contempt.
The declaration by the APA which I voted for states that "change therapies" are inappropriate. It does not stop a therapist from helping a gay person become chaste or live a chaste life. This is supposed to be the case of all unmarried persons both gay and straight according to the Church although we all know how well that works.How many couples get married in the Church who have had premarital sex which is also against Church teaching.Chastity also supposed to be the case for monastics but we all know what was going on in the OCA.
The Kinsey Institute at Indiana University in Bloomington,Indiana has a prize for $50,000. for a person who can pass their criteria for being a heterosexual who was once homosexual.The money has never been awarded.Sexual preference has a lot more to do with what goes on between the ears and very little with the genitalia.St.Paul lacked this important insight yet his standard does set the tone for Church teaching and the Canons.There are people who would disagree with St.Paul such as Peter Gomes of Harvard University,,author of the The Good Book,,Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart but he is hardly Orthodox. I know of no authors who are Orthodox who have disagreed with this interpretation of the Pauline writings yet every Orthodox { there aren't a lot of us}psychologist who was at the APA Convention that I spoke to agreed with the resolution.In fact one psychologist who is also a priest said that the resolution should read "Reparative Therapy is dangerous to Christians" Most of the Reparative Therapy is done by evangelicals or mormons who hold little cotton with us Orthodox. I have had former evangelicals who converted to Orthodoxy discuss this with me and I see it as an artifact of their former life before Orthodoxy. I am relatively elderly and I have never heard a sermon about homosexuality in an Orthodox Church. I guess this is because sermons are usually about the Gospel. A protestant friend of mine complains that gays is all his pastor talks about and this is one reason why he is exploring Orthodoxy although I have informed him of the official Church teaching.He states that we are not "obsessed" with the issue but appear to want to live out our salvation.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 02:26:09 PM by SDMPNS » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2009, 02:55:19 PM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...two milenia of living Tradition. And some people want to throw it all out to embrace a "therapy" born in heterodox cults which even the Founder of Exodus International not only admits is a failure, but was a failure in his own case! ( http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/busseeapology )
I wrote the following post over two years ago now, and I still stand by it:

I confess that this is a subject that I don't know yet *how* to deal with.
I think that's the first and most important step towards understanding how to deal with anything.
The next step, I think, is trying to make a connection with something in my own experience. For example, I know what it's like to crave a cigarette even though I know that smoking them does me damage. But no amount of public health warnings was ever able to stop me smoking. I even worked in palliative care with people dying of lung cancer and emphysema, and even that didn't stop me smoking. My Mother (God rest her) called it "the incense of the devil" and my Father (God rest him) once got me to take a $10 note out of my wallet and burned it in front of me saying "It would be better if you burned your money this way!"- and even that didn't stop me!
After a period of some years with my current Confessor, and having dealt with some more pressing spiritual matters, he got me to start looking at my nicotine addiction, not as something to be eliminated, but rather, as an opportunity for spiritual growth. Rather than listing all the reasons why I shouldn't smoke (which I knew anyway), he got me to start looking at the possibility of learning live with nicotine craving, and using it as a way of coming closer to God. As St. Anthony the Great says: "Whoever has not experienced temptation cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Without temptations no-one can be saved.'
If we think of smoking as sinful and morally wrong, then nicotine craving is the passion and is morally neutral. This is the Orthodox understanding of the difference between "passion" and "sin".
Similarly, homosexual orientation is the passion (and therefore morally neutral) while homosexual acts are the sin, and morally wrong. As a psychologist, I think that this Orthodox view offers the only way out of what is termed "Ego-Dystonic Homosexuality". In the Diagnostic Manual we use to  diagnose mental illness, homosexuality is not a mental disorder unless the homosexual themselves considers it to be disorder, that is, their homosexuality is dystonic to their own self identity. Now, among some Protestant and Catholic groups, the current "treatment" for ego-dystonic homosexuality such as "Courage International" and "Exodus International" is "reparative therapy", that is "reorienting" the sexual attraction. The problem with this is it just doesn't work. I personally know of two members of "Exodus International" who have committed suicide (one after having entered a hetrosexual marriage as part of his "reorientation"). It's boloney. It would be like myself trying to give up smoking by pretending that my very powerful cravings for cigarettes don't exist. Let me tell you, they darn well do exist!
With it's keen understanding of how the passions work and how to manage them, Orthodoxy offers a way out of homosexual behaviour while not attempting to deny the existence of homosexual orientation. It offers another option- yes, a difficult one, but an option nonetheless, and that is the martyric path of chastity. And St. John Climakos in "The Ladder of Divine Assent" makes this keen observation in Step 15:24:
"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For, with nature on his side, he has the best of the argument."
Orthodoxy acknowledges that, in demanding that the People of God avoid fornication (whether heterosexually or homosexually) she is demanding something which goes against nature. In other words, she acknowledges that yes, the desire is there, but that we are not to act on it. This is a big ask, and St. John Climacus acknowledges this when he says in Step 15:7:
"Let no one thoroughly trained in purity attribute its attainment to himself. For it is impossible for anyone to conquer his own nature. When nature is defeated, it should be recognised that this is due to the presence of Him Who is above nature. For beyond all dispute, the weaker gives way to the Stronger."
So, rather than continually rattle off the same stuff about "homosexual agendas" and "homosexual sin" that occur on every Christian forum, why don't we offer on an Orthodox forum the unique perspective that yes, homosexual orientation exists, just as the desire to fornicate or be an adulterer exists, and these are "natural", but even this does not mean that acting on these "natural desires" is morally neutral. And even more importantly, we can offer the uniquely Orthodox understanding of the difference between passion and sin which may offer homosexuals a way out of having to act on their desires, while at the same time not attempting to deny that their desires exist.
But if the only thing we have to offer is the same old hackneyed thing that one sees on every Christian forum such as "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" then what's the point? No one's gonna listen, it's the same rubbish they get everywhere.
We cannot tell people outside the Church how to live their sexual lives. And with nature on their side (as St. John Clmacus points out) they'd laugh us to scorn. All we can do is bear witness to another way, and offer it as an alternative.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 03:21:50 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2009, 03:02:35 PM »

Excellent, kind, and thoughtful post, OzGeorge, even if it's two years old!
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« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2009, 03:11:34 PM »

The term "Lay people" used here would include anyone who is not a psychologist/psychiatrist and that would include lawyers

not under the law it doesn't.

Quote
and clergy.

Not when it comes to morality.  or the true nature of things.

Quote
The unfortunate thing about this thread and this usually happens when discussing homosexuality is that it become relatively banal and filled with contempt.
The declaration by the APA which I voted for states that "change therapies" are inappropriate. It does not stop a therapist from helping a gay person become chaste or live a chaste life. This is supposed to be the case of all unmarried persons both gay and straight according to the Church although we all know how well that works.How many couples get married in the Church who have had premarital sex which is also against Church teaching.Chastity also supposed to be the case for monastics but we all know what was going on in the OCA.

Why do you single out the OCA?

Quote
The Kinsey Institute at Indiana University in Bloomington,Indiana has a prize for $50,000. for a person who can pass their criteria for being a heterosexual who was once homosexual.

Given its namesake, did they ever have a prize for a person who could pass their criteria for being sexually disordered?


Quote
The money has never been awarded.Sexual preference has a lot more to do with what goes on between the ears and very little with the genitalia. /

Parts is parts.

Quote
St.Paul lacked this important insight yet his standard does set the tone for Church teaching and the Canons.There are people who would disagree with St.Paul such as Peter Gomes of Harvard University,,author of the The Good Book,,Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart but he is hardly Orthodox. I know of no authors who are Orthodox who have disagreed with this interpretation of the Pauline writings yet every Orthodox { there aren't a lot of us}psychologist who was at the APA Convention that I spoke to agreed with the resolution.  In fact one psychologist who is also a priest said that the resolution should read "Reparative Therapy is dangerous to Christians" Most of the Reparative Therapy is done by evangelicals or mormons who hold little cotton with us Orthodox. I have had former evangelicals who converted to Orthodoxy discuss this with me and I see it as an artifact of their former life before Orthodoxy. I am relatively elderly and I have never heard a sermon about homosexuality in an Orthodox Church. I guess this is because sermons are usually about the Gospel. A protestant friend of mine complains that gays is all his pastor talks about and this is one reason why he is exploring Orthodoxy although I have informed him of the official Church teaching.  He states that we are not "obsessed" with the issue but appear to want to live out our salvation.
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« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2009, 03:17:09 PM »

Yes indeed OzGeorge,,Welcome back...see all the fun you have been missing? Welcome back to the House of Mirth!
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« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2009, 03:29:33 PM »

Yes indeed OzGeorge,,Welcome back...
Thanks!

see all the fun you have been missing? Welcome back to the House of Mirth!
Oh boy! Do I ever!
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« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2009, 03:29:45 PM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...two milenia of living Tradition. And some people want to throw it all out to embrace a "therapy" born in heterodox cults which even the Founder of Exodus International not only admits is a failure, but was a failure in his own case! ( http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/busseeapology )
I wrote the following post over two years ago now, and I still stand by it:

[/quote]

There is no one on this thread, so far, that supports a magical, six month therapy program to change homosexuals’ sexual orientation.  You guys are going off on a tangent.  

My problem with the APA’s statement is that it did not specifically discuss **interventions** that they deemed were “non-therapeutic” and therefore, medical malpractice.  Perhaps they would like everyone to believe that all counseling which might change aspects in homosexuals is also non-therapeutic.  If you are truly in counseling profession, you clearly know that there are many distinct problems that are curable/treatable in this population. ( I’m not going to make a laundry list here and I don’t need anymore continuing education credits, so spare me.)  Because they chose not to address this and broadly discussed reparative therapy, many counselors (psychiatrist/psychologists/PAs/nurse practioners/clergy/social workers) are going to be held to a standard with floating or zero boundaries.  This places mental health professionals at an increased risk of liability and will eventually affect the counseling and/or access to counseling that homosexuals receive.  


« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 03:45:13 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2009, 03:44:21 PM »

 You guys are going off on a tangent.  
Really? I thought the title of this thread is about so-called reparative therapy- which is precisely what we are talking about.

My problem with the APA’s statement is that it did not specifically discuss **interventions** that they deemed were “non-therapeutic” and therefore, medical malpractice.
Yes they did specify which interventions are non-therapeutic: reparative therapy.

Perhaps they would like everyone to believe that all counseling which might change aspects in homosexuals is also non-therapeutic.
This is mere conjecture.

many counselors (psychiatrist/psychologists/PAs/nurse practioners/clergy/social workers) are going to be held to a standard with floating or zero boundaries.  
No. They will be held accountable and the standards and boundaries are clear-> Evidence-based Practice.

This places mental health professionals at an increased risk of liability (
Mental Health Professionals have a duty of care, and that duty of care requires best practice and evidence-based practice. Don't thier clients and patients deserve that?

and will eventually affect the counseling and/or access to counseling that homosexuals receive.  
Yes, it will affect counselling of homosexuals, by improving it, removing the cowboys, keeping them safe from "therapies" that don't work and do more harm and no good.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 03:45:04 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2009, 03:48:28 PM »

There are many forms of "reparative therapy" and not all define their objective as changing the patient's sexual preference.

George.... What time is it in Australia?  I am worried about your decreased need for sleep. 

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« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2009, 04:05:49 PM »

COURAGE is one example of reparative therapy program with the objective of celibacy and not sexual preference change (or at least they were months ago).

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« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2009, 04:13:56 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 

I have to disagree with you a little bit my friend. I do agree that the issue is primarily between the effeminate individual and his spiritual father; but if our brother's unChristian actions are causing offense to others in the Church, then we have a Christian duty to encourage them to change their behavior. Perhaps I shouldn't have included the Scaraments in my initial question, since the laity cannot decide such things. But if we all agree that those who are struggling with sin need our support and encouragement, then shouldn't that support and encouragement also include strong admonition and loving rebuke?  

Selam
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« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2009, 04:16:16 PM »

Basically, I agree that secular psychology and psychiatry(Freud thought himself as a psychiatrist not "psychologist", btw)  is at best a philosophy, and people like professor of Psychiatry Th. Szasz(only referring to the most famous) would say a religion. For example, there never were -and have never been proven through objective tests- any biochemical imbalances that cause "mental illness", and the brain is not known to us, the science of neurology has not gone so far yet and probably will never go. Thus, I think it's only natural for them to think that there are positive elements in "homosexuality" and that trying to change a person -provided that he himself is willing to!- of this orientation is not "legitimate". Of course, homosexuality was considered a "mental illness" some decades ago and after a certain voting which took place, it was removed(!). This is natural and expected, when you deal with things that can be so subjective, cannot be measured and are of a moral(as St. Nektarios said), behavioural nature which the Medical Profession has nothing to do with.

I hope that someday everybody, at least inside the church, will understand that the answers to such questions do not come from the outside knowledge, but from the Patristic one, from the knowledge of the Uncreated. And this is why the basis for the apophatic anthropology of Orthodoxy is not some modern day professional, but Gregory of Nyssa and his work upon the construction of man. I know this is a large topic, of course ...  Wink I hope it's not too late for some people -which happens sometimes to the Christian homeopathetic professionals. Smiley

 

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« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2009, 04:30:14 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 

I have to disagree with you a little bit my friend. I do agree that the issue is primarily between the effeminate individual and his spiritual father; but if our brother's unChristian actions are causing offense to others in the Church, then we have a Christian duty to encourage them to change their behavior. Perhaps I shouldn't have included the Scaraments in my initial question, since the laity cannot decide such things. But if we all agree that those who are struggling with sin need our support and encouragement, then shouldn't that support and encouragement also include strong admonition and loving rebuke?  

Selam

This bolded portion is what I was getting at in my disagreement and I'm glad to see we may be on the same page here.    Smiley

But I do think that there are things that we would not bat an eyelash at that St. Paul would possibly consider "effeminate".  And what constitutes the line between "effeminanity" and "masculinity".  Is a man who has a deep voice is well built/strong but who would otherwise rather be sewing and tending a flower garden more or less effeminate than a waiflike man with a soft voice (possibly with a lisp) who is an automotive mechanic and a war veteran?  I personally know examples of both types of men.
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« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2009, 04:36:51 PM »

There are many forms of "reparative therapy" and not all define their objective as changing the patient's sexual preference.
What examples of Reparative (or "Conversion") therapy are there which do not seek to change the client's sexual preference? Could you name some? Because your claim contradicts the commonly understood definition of Reparative Therapy. What is being repaired if not the person's sexual preference? Their moral values? Is that really the role of psychotherapy, or is that more the role of an Evangelist?

George.... What time is it in Australia?  I am worried about your decreased need for sleep. 
Don't worry, it's just the manic phase. Cheesy
I'm actually at work (night duty). Helping to prevent suicides. And two of them in the past have been survivors of "Reparative Therapy". Kind of cleaning up the mess you guys leave in your wake.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 04:41:09 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2009, 04:48:38 PM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...
Which translation of The Ladder would you recommend?
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« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2009, 04:58:07 PM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...
Which translation of The Ladder would you recommend?
HTM
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« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2009, 05:22:29 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 

I have to disagree with you a little bit my friend. I do agree that the issue is primarily between the effeminate individual and his spiritual father; but if our brother's unChristian actions are causing offense to others in the Church, then we have a Christian duty to encourage them to change their behavior. Perhaps I shouldn't have included the Scaraments in my initial question, since the laity cannot decide such things. But if we all agree that those who are struggling with sin need our support and encouragement, then shouldn't that support and encouragement also include strong admonition and loving rebuke?  

Selam

This bolded portion is what I was getting at in my disagreement and I'm glad to see we may be on the same page here.    Smiley

But I do think that there are things that we would not bat an eyelash at that St. Paul would possibly consider "effeminate".  And what constitutes the line between "effeminanity" and "masculinity".  Is a man who has a deep voice is well built/strong but who would otherwise rather be sewing and tending a flower garden more or less effeminate than a waiflike man with a soft voice (possibly with a lisp) who is an automotive mechanic and a war veteran?  I personally know examples of both types of men.

Yeah, I think you're right. Maybe it's like the Supreme Court Justice who couldn't define pornography but said he knew it when he saw it.

Personally I would never confront anyone about their effeminate mannerisms. I have had some good Christian friends who exhibited effeminate traits, but they also exhibited a sincere devotion to God. One was a friend of mine back in Bible College who one day confided in me that he struggled with homosexual feelings. He said he had never acted on them, but that he would sometimes drive by gay bars and feel very tempted. I don't know why he chose to tell me these things, but I told him I was his friend and brother regardless. I told him to come and talk to me if he ever felt tempted by such things. A few years later I saw him and he introduced me to his new bride. And he seemed genuinely happy.

Another friend I had who was a strong Christian later told me he was openly gay and living in sin. I told him that I still loved him and would always be his friend. I also told him that he knew that the life he was living was sinful, and as his friend I would never tell him otherwise. He is still my friend, and he is still living in sin.

So I'm with you basically. These matters are dificult. In spite of my strong opinions and uncompromising stance on certain matters, I wish people would know that I try my best to treat people with love and compassion. For whatever reason, I still find that many people come to me confessing their personal struggles and asking me for advice. I dont' know why. But I always do my best to show them compassion even if I have to tell them some hard truths. I try to treat them like I'd want to be treated if I were in their shoes.

Selam
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« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2009, 07:03:47 PM »

There are many forms of "reparative therapy" and not all define their objective as changing the patient's sexual preference.
What examples of Reparative (or "Conversion") therapy are there which do not seek to change the client's sexual preference? Could you name some? Because your claim contradicts the commonly understood definition of Reparative Therapy. What is being repaired if not the person's sexual preference? Their moral values? Is that really the role of psychotherapy, or is that more the role of an Evangelist?

George.... What time is it in Australia?  I am worried about your decreased need for sleep. 
Don't worry, it's just the manic phase. Cheesy
I'm actually at work (night duty). Helping to prevent suicides. And two of them in the past have been survivors of "Reparative Therapy". Kind of cleaning up the mess you guys leave in your wake.


The APA previously defined reparative therapy as any attempt aimed at eliminating or suppressing homosexuality.   This is a definition which could included many types of interventions to help homosexuals practice celibacy.  These are now labeled as non-therapeutic and therefore they could be considered malpractice.

I gave you an example of a reparative therapy program called COURAGE.  It is sponsored by the Catholic Church. 

I also work many individuals in need of  mental health counseling, ozgeorge. Some of whom are suffering because of their homosexual lifestyle "activities".  I'm praying that you do not use your passive-aggressive techniques at the suicide hotline center.
 



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« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2009, 09:42:01 PM »

Ms .Hoorah..are you a psychologist..I can see may reasons why a homosexual person would need therapy but the homosexuality would not be the focus of the therapy as heterosexuality would not be the focus of the therapy in aheterosexual person..the Church says that all unmarried people need to live a chaste life and any "fall" from that is between that person and his/her priest. I am not a Roman Catholic so I would never consider Courage to be helpful...the RC view of sin, original sin, would keep me from seeing it as helpful.
This is an Orthodox forum.
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« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2009, 09:45:30 PM »

OzGeorge...did you move to Australia? I thought you lived in Ohio? Wow...no wonder you were gone...

Passive aggressive? where did that come from..Jeepers,
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« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2009, 11:07:08 AM »

SDMPNS- I am a licensed, psychiatric-mental health practitioner with 3 decades of practice who is required, by my employer along with every other clinician at this facility, to purchase malpractice liability insurance.  There is a war occuring between patients who want to win the "lottery" by filing lawsuits against medical professionals......in case you didn't notice. When professional organizations declare something is malpractice/non-therapeutic, they should make the borders of this new, dangerous practice very clear.

Are you a social worker? (I am being respectful.  Social workers have a most difficult job.)

Ozgeorge, passive-aggressively, decided to make to tried to make me feel responsible for the suicides of two homosexuals.(see post 58 then drag out your old textbooks or google Borderline Personality Disorder and/or Passive Aggression. ozgeorge's behavior is an example of passive-aggression.)  Sleep much through grad school lectures?  I am also not responsible for the latest abortion doctor's murder because I am pro-life.

Ozgeorge asked for an example of reparative therapy that did not seek to to change the patient's sexual preference. I gave him one example, COURAGE. 
 
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« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2009, 01:49:15 PM »

I have malpractice insurance too which is very high because I work with sexually abused children and do custody evaluations.
I have never been sued and my clinical work is an open book..most malpractice suits that I have been on professional review boards for were not capricious but called for.
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« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2009, 02:18:17 PM »

I googled COURAGE and it is an interesting program.It is ,however, a RC program and this is an Orthodox forum.
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« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2009, 04:39:25 PM »

The APA previously defined reparative therapy as any attempt aimed at eliminating or suppressing homosexuality.  This is a definition which could included many types of interventions to help homosexuals practice celibacy. These are now labeled as non-therapeutic and therefore they could be considered malpractice.
Nonsense.
Firstly, homosexuality is defined by same-sex attraction (not sexual acts), therefore, presenting celibacy as an option could never be defined as "non-therapeutic'. In fact NOT presenting celibacy as an option WOULD be non-therapeutic.

I also work many individuals in need of  mental health counseling, ozgeorge. Some of whom are suffering because of their homosexual lifestyle "activities". 
What are your qualifications?

I'm praying that you do not use your passive-aggressive techniques at the suicide hotline center.
I don't work at a hotline centre. I work in a psychiatric emergency team which actually goes out to situations of threatened suicide when called by police. I don't have the luxury of being able to chat on the phone from a self-righteous distance to patients. Thanks for your prayers, but I'm sorry you think people disagreeing with your ideas is "passive-aggression".
 


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« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2009, 05:38:08 PM »

Fascinating ozgeorge.  I just lectured at continuing education course on psychiatric emergencies.  Do they really not immediately take individuals,  that are threatening passive or active suicide, directly to an ER where an the patient undergoes a medical and psychiatric evaluation by a physician? Then the physician can determine if the patient need to be admitted voluntarily or involuntarily.   I thought our health care systems were extremely similar.  You Aussies just complete all those many necessary tests in the “field”?  Amazing and hard to believe.

I previously listed my qualifications and I have no intention of giving you my home address, phone number or any other personal information.
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« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2009, 05:51:12 PM »

In case you are incompetent in addition to being rude, this is your passive-aggressive response (from post 58).

“I'm actually at work (night duty). Helping to prevent suicides. And two of them in the past have been survivors of "Reparative Therapy". Kind of cleaning up the mess you guys leave in your wake.”
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« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2009, 06:31:51 PM »

Firstly, I 'd like to ask if there is some remarkably clear and actually credible definition of "reparative therapy".

Second, I think, that it should hinge on a person's will whether or not he will attend some person who is called a "therapist", a "physician", a philosophical therapist or whatever. It is totally absurd to try to define sth as therapeutic or non-therapeutic, while this is a purely allegorical category. Of course, we all know -and, even more people with studies in fields of economics or marketing/management- that soft/social science is extremely politically biased and has been this way since a lot of decades back.

Third, defining someone as sth that some school of thought perceives as "ill" in order to claim that hiw views are faulty is a bit offensive.  Smiley
And it reminds me of the freudian "diagnosis" of the great Dostoyevsky as suffering from "hysterical epilepsy"(!!!!!) because of his "fear of guilt of his desire of patricide"(sic) etc. Perhaps this is why Kraus defined psychoanalysis as "the kind of psychopathy that thinks it can cure".  laugh Anyways, this is not exactly the topic to be discussed here. I'm just making some general statements that relate to the matter we're discussing.   Wink Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2009, 08:34:17 PM »

Firstly, I 'd like to ask if there is some remarkably clear and actually credible definition of "reparative therapy".

"Conversion therapy, sometimes called reparative therapy, involves methods intended to convert gay and lesbian people to heterosexuality, which have been a source of intense political controversy in the United States and numerous other countries. The American Psychological Association states that political and moral debates over the integration of gays and lesbians into the mainstream of American society have obscured scientific data about changing sexual orientation "by calling into question the motives and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue."" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy
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« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2009, 08:43:14 PM »

Second, I think, that it should hinge on a person's will whether or not he will attend some person who is called a "therapist", a "physician", a philosophical therapist or whatever. It is totally absurd to try to define sth as therapeutic or non-therapeutic, while this is a purely allegorical category. Of course, we all know -and, even more people with studies in fields of economics or marketing/management- that soft/social science is extremely politically biased and has been this way since a lot of decades back.
I disagree. Clients have the right to know what thier treating professional's qualifications are. Psychology is not a "soft" science, it is evidence based & measurable.
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« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2009, 01:24:45 AM »

Psychology is not a "soft" science, it is evidence based & measurable.

Can you elaborate on this? I agree with Philalethe00, that psychology is a soft science (or pseudo-science). But I am willing to concede that I'm wrong if you can substantiate your claim.

And even if it is a "soft" science, that does not automatically negate its benefits.

I have often said that, "Sometimes the most objective point of reference is admitted subjectivity." We can all make great errors and cause serious harm when we cloak subjective opinions and interpretations in the claims of objectivity. There is no shame in saying, "I'm not certain, but this is my opinion based on my years of experience and my knowledge." Then the patient or client can take that advice into consideration and make their decision. 

In regards to Reparative Therapy, I think both sides make the mistake of claiming objectivity when it actually comes down to subjective opinion. For example, I have my personal opinions about whether or not someone is born gay. My opinions are based on my Christian beliefs and upon a very limited knowledge of science. But ultimately my opinions on the matter are subjective, just as the opinions of those who hold the opposing view are ultimately subjective.   

I wouldn't have such a inherent distrust of psychiatry/psychology if the field didn't claim to be an objective science when it's not. But again, if you can prove that it is, then I will be glad to acknowledge that I'm wrong.

Selam
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« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2009, 07:48:44 AM »

Can you elaborate on this?
I can, but why would I bother when you have made up your mind already?

I agree with Philalethe00, that psychology is a soft science (or pseudo-science).
Do you? Based on what?

But I am willing to concede that I'm wrong if you can substantiate your claim.
I highly doubt that.
But in the interests of truth: All the Behavioural Sciences use data collected from measurable, repeatable experiments as well as statistics of observed phenomena. What we know about behaviour of individuals and groups is not plucked from thin air- it is observed, recorded, experimented on, measured etc. It is science.
Personal religious convictions are not science. From a scientific perspective, personal religious convictions are not measurable and at best they constitute an untested (and untestable) hypothesis and at worst they are a delusion.
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« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2009, 08:50:55 AM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...two milenia of living Tradition. And some people want to throw it all out to embrace a "therapy" born in heterodox cults which even the Founder of Exodus International not only admits is a failure, but was a failure in his own case! ( http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/busseeapology )
I wrote the following post over two years ago now, and I still stand by it:

There is no one on this thread, so far, that supports a magical, six month therapy program to change homosexuals’ sexual orientation.  You guys are going off on a tangent.  

My problem with the APA’s statement is that it did not specifically discuss **interventions** that they deemed were “non-therapeutic” and therefore, medical malpractice.  Perhaps they would like everyone to believe that all counseling which might change aspects in homosexuals is also non-therapeutic.  If you are truly in counseling profession, you clearly know that there are many distinct problems that are curable/treatable in this population. ( I’m not going to make a laundry list here and I don’t need anymore continuing education credits, so spare me.)  Because they chose not to address this and broadly discussed reparative therapy, many counselors (psychiatrist/psychologists/PAs/nurse practioners/clergy/social workers) are going to be held to a standard with floating or zero boundaries.  This places mental health professionals at an increased risk of liability and will eventually affect the counseling and/or access to counseling that homosexuals receive.  




When I worked in the psych hospital, we briefly had a "gay unit."  I don't recall the exact organization's name, but it was an organization that treated gays for substance abuse problems mainly.  Part of the "therapy" was having them embrace their homosexuality.  I can't remember all the details of why they were in the hospital for only a short time (they had their own ward, and were rather demanding), but I seem to recall part of it being that homosexual patients were supposed to be referred to them just because they were homosexual (which could be enough for getting rid of them: the hospital was for profit, I mean "tax-paying" Roll Eyes, and they had expected the unit to bring business in, not syphon it off.

Which such a unit be considered "malpractice?"
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« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2009, 09:08:20 AM »

Can you elaborate on this?
I can, but why would I bother when you have made up your mind already?

I agree with Philalethe00, that psychology is a soft science (or pseudo-science).
Do you? Based on what?

But I am willing to concede that I'm wrong if you can substantiate your claim.
I highly doubt that.
But in the interests of truth: All the Behavioural Sciences use data collected from measurable, repeatable experiments as well as statistics of observed phenomena. What we know about behaviour of individuals and groups is not plucked from thin air- it is observed, recorded, experimented on, measured etc. It is science.
Personal religious convictions are not science. From a scientific perspective, personal religious convictions are not measurable and at best they constitute an untested (and untestable) hypothesis and at worst they are a delusion.

Well you observe actions, and then speculate or make an educated guess about the cause of those actions. The action may be measurable and verifiable, but the cause of the action cannot be measured or verified. And therein lies the problem with equating behavioral science with "hard" science. Thoughts cannot be measured or tested. Brain waves can be measured, but no one can read someone's mind and thoughts simply by measuring their brain waves. Also, sensory feelings and emotional feelings are two different things, and psychiatry often confuses the two. Again, sensory feelings can be objectively measured to a degree, but emotions cannot be objectively quantified. And while there is often a correlation between sensory feelings and emotions, they are not one and the same and should never be assumed to be inextricably linked. Neuroscience is "hard" science; psychology/psychiatry is "soft" science.

Selam
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« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2009, 09:12:16 AM »

Well you observe actions, and then speculate or make an educated guess about the cause of those actions.
You're not reading what I wrote (just as I predicted). Thanks for proving my point. Smiley
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« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2009, 09:13:56 AM »

I can't remember all the details
Get back to me when you do.
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« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2009, 09:38:55 AM »

Well you observe actions, and then speculate or make an educated guess about the cause of those actions.
You're not reading what I wrote (just as I predicted). Thanks for proving my point. Smiley

No, I correctly stated the basic practice of behavioral science without all the euphemistic scientific sounding jargon with which you embellished it.

Selam
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« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2009, 09:52:25 AM »

Whatever gets you through the night.
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« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2009, 09:59:09 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
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« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2009, 10:17:02 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.
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« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2009, 10:28:15 AM »

I can't remember all the details
Get back to me when you do.

The Pride Unit.
http://www.pride-institute.com/drug-abuse/
Quote
Studies indicate that, when compared with the mainstream (heterosexual) population, LGBT people are more likely to use drugs, have higher rates of substance abuse, and are more likely to continue drug abuse into later life. Although LGBT people have been shown to use all types of drugs, certain drugs appear to be more popular in the LGBT community than in the mainstream community.

Gay men, for example, are significantly more likely to have used marijuana, stimulants, sedatives, cocaine, and “party drugs” (ecstasy, ketamine, and GHB) than men in the general population. The use of crystal methamphetamine in gay and bisexual men has increased dramatically in recent years and is discussed separately in another section of this website.

Studies suggest that up to 25% of the LGBT population have difficulty controlling their drug or alcohol use. When you are recovering from addiction or mental health issues, you already have enough to deal with. Your sexuality shouldn’t be viewed as another one of your problems.

At PRIDE Institute, gay is understood. You will be one of a group of like-minded people. Being LGBT is the norm at PRIDE Institute, not the exception. Our highly trained and skilled staff understands your issues and teaches you how to live a happy, healthy life as a proud LGBT person.
http://www.pride-institute.com/about/
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« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2009, 10:28:28 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.

And yet you routinely interpolate subjectivity and objectivity, fact and fiction. Roll Eyes

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« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2009, 10:34:34 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.

embracing a disorder (yes, I think we discussed the politically motivated change in the DMV).
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« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2009, 10:37:00 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.

George,   I have known a few Orthodox gays to claim that they are getting a very raw deal from the Church.  They claim that up until the 1820s the Rite for Brothermaking  (Bratotvorenie in Russian and Adelphopoiia in Greek) was an Orthodox marriage service for gay marriage.  They say that in around the 1820s the Catholic Church persuaded the Orthodox to do away with this marriage rite.  In my opinion, this mitigates against their contention- what influence could the Catholic Church have had on the Orthodox in the early 19th century!?    Now I have always been taught that Brothermaking was simply what it says, and indeed I have participated in the rite in Serbia.  Do you think though that it actually had the status of a marriage ceremony in our Church? Did we do away with it for that reason?  Would it be beneficial to gay Orthodox to re-instate it, either as brother-making or as marriage? 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 10:38:45 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2009, 10:55:45 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.

George,   I have known a few Orthodox gays to claim that they are getting a very raw deal from the Church.  They claim that up until the 1820s the Rite for Brothermaking  (Bratotvorenie in Russian and Adelphopoiia in Greek) was an Orthodox marriage service for gay marriage.  They say that in around the 1820s the Catholic Church persuaded the Orthodox to do away with this marriage rite.  In my opinion, this mitigates against their contention- what influence could the Catholic Church have had on the Orthodox in the early 19th century!?    Now I have always been taught that Brothermaking was simply what it says, and indeed I have participated in the rite in Serbia.  Do you think though that it actually had the status of a marriage ceremony in our Church? Did we do away with it for that reason?  Would it be beneficial to gay Orthodox to re-instate it, either as brother-making or as marriage? 
What exactly does any of this have to do with "reparative therapy"?
You're right SDMPS. Nobody's paying attention.
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ozgeorge
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Posts: 16,382


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« Reply #89 on: August 12, 2009, 11:01:47 AM »

I can't remember all the details
Get back to me when you do.

The Pride Unit.
http://www.pride-institute.com/drug-abuse/
Quote
Studies indicate that, when compared with the mainstream (heterosexual) population, LGBT people are more likely to use drugs, have higher rates of substance abuse, and are more likely to continue drug abuse into later life. Although LGBT people have been shown to use all types of drugs, certain drugs appear to be more popular in the LGBT community than in the mainstream community.

Gay men, for example, are significantly more likely to have used marijuana, stimulants, sedatives, cocaine, and “party drugs” (ecstasy, ketamine, and GHB) than men in the general population. The use of crystal methamphetamine in gay and bisexual men has increased dramatically in recent years and is discussed separately in another section of this website.

Studies suggest that up to 25% of the LGBT population have difficulty controlling their drug or alcohol use. When you are recovering from addiction or mental health issues, you already have enough to deal with. Your sexuality shouldn’t be viewed as another one of your problems.

At PRIDE Institute, gay is understood. You will be one of a group of like-minded people. Being LGBT is the norm at PRIDE Institute, not the exception. Our highly trained and skilled staff understands your issues and teaches you how to live a happy, healthy life as a proud LGBT person.
http://www.pride-institute.com/about/
As SMDPS asked, do you think this would be against APA principles or constitute "reparative therapy"? If so, why?
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