Topic: Reparative Therapy is Dangerous to Christian Therapists

[ozgeorge]

Why don't you just stick to the substance of the controversial practice of reparative therapy and leave your judgments of persons out of this thread?

Could it be because "reparative therapy" depends on passing judgment on persons?

[ozgeorge]

I have much more faith in the "religion" of reparative therapy than I do in the sorcery of secular psychology.

Oh good. Enjoy it.
In the meantime, don't complain when secular psychology rejects "reparative therapy" as American Evangelical Protestant religious mumbo-jumbo.

I won't complain anymore than you complain about Chrisitain psychologists that encourage spiritual morality as integral to mental health.

Selam 

Christian Psychologists can encourage Christian spiritual morality all they want- it's just that they can't pretend it's "psychotherapy" any more.
Should an Orthodox Christian Therapist treating a heterodox Christian seek to correct their false beliefs? Isn't heresy the most damaging thing to a person? Why doesn't "reparative therapy" seek to "repair" heresy if its focus is that spiritual well-being is fundamental to mental well being? Why select only homosexuality for repair?

Same reason addiction is selected for repair.

Oh. Social Engineering.

[Jetavan]

Ms. Hoorah raised a point that I'm still waiting for others to address:

"How can the mind be truly healthy unless the mind is attuned to Christ?"

Selam

The role of the (state-licensed?) psychotherapist is devoid of spiritual guidance, which is the best done by clergy.

What this means from an Orthodox perspective is that a (state-licensed?) psychotherapist does not involve him/herself in the process of cultivating a "truly healthy" mind, which is fine, because many non-Orthodox patients/clients are perfectly happy with "fairly healthy" minds.

I presume that one can be a state-licensed psychotherapist who also does spiritual counseling on the side.

Your answer leads me to conclude:

1. You are admitting that secular behavioral therapy is not interested in helping patients cultivate a truly healthy mind.

2. Secular behavioral therapists and their clients are content with "fairly healthy minds." (Again, this is a very subjective definition. I'd be very interested for you to give us an objective quantitative definition of a "fairly healthy mind.")

Selam

1. From an Orthodox perspective, a "truly healthy" mind is only possible within an Orthodox framework. Secular therapists might "believe" that they are helping create a "truly healthy" mind, but Orthodoxy would say that secular therapy, though helpful, is not the "fullest therapy".

2. Thus, Orthodox contains the "fullest therapy" (just like it contains the "fullest revelation"), but that doesn't meant that secular therapy can't provide a degree of healthy-mindedness for those people who have not adopted Orthodoxy.

3. If Orthodoxy can co-exist with churches that do not exhibit "fullest revelation", surely Orthodoxy can co-exist with "therapies" that do not exhibit characteristics that belong to the "fullest therapy".

4. Not everyone is Orthodox, nor does everyone (at this moment in time) want to be Orthodox. For them, secular therapy may offer a very good alternative, until that time when they feel called to Orthodoxy.

5. Therefore, it is possible for an Orthodox Christian to engage in secular therapy, for the purpose of helping non-Orthodox individuals who have no intention of becoming Orthodox.

6. I would, thus, maintain that oftentimes the best thing that can be done for a person who is not Orthodox, is to engage them in secular therapy. For that person, at that time, secular therapy presents the "fullest therapy" (even though we know better ).

[ialmisry]

Why don't you just stick to the substance of the controversial practice of reparative therapy and leave your judgments of persons out of this thread?

Could it be because "reparative therapy" depends on passing judgment on persons?

So does addiction therapy. Addiction is bad, that's why you are in therapy for it.

Who goes to therapy for something normal?

[ialmisry]

I have much more faith in the "religion" of reparative therapy than I do in the sorcery of secular psychology.

Oh good. Enjoy it.
In the meantime, don't complain when secular psychology rejects "reparative therapy" as American Evangelical Protestant religious mumbo-jumbo.

I won't complain anymore than you complain about Chrisitain psychologists that encourage spiritual morality as integral to mental health.

Selam 

Christian Psychologists can encourage Christian spiritual morality all they want- it's just that they can't pretend it's "psychotherapy" any more.
Should an Orthodox Christian Therapist treating a heterodox Christian seek to correct their false beliefs? Isn't heresy the most damaging thing to a person? Why doesn't "reparative therapy" seek to "repair" heresy if its focus is that spiritual well-being is fundamental to mental well being? Why select only homosexuality for repair?

Same reason addiction is selected for repair.

Oh. Social Engineering.

No. Letting the addicts kill themselves would do that better.  Eliminating them one or another from society.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Ms. Hoorah raised a point that I'm still waiting for others to address:

"How can the mind be truly healthy unless the mind is attuned to Christ?"

Selam

The role of the (state-licensed?) psychotherapist is devoid of spiritual guidance, which is the best done by clergy.

What this means from an Orthodox perspective is that a (state-licensed?) psychotherapist does not involve him/herself in the process of cultivating a "truly healthy" mind, which is fine, because many non-Orthodox patients/clients are perfectly happy with "fairly healthy" minds.

I presume that one can be a state-licensed psychotherapist who also does spiritual counseling on the side.

Your answer leads me to conclude:

1. You are admitting that secular behavioral therapy is not interested in helping patients cultivate a truly healthy mind.

2. Secular behavioral therapists and their clients are content with "fairly healthy minds." (Again, this is a very subjective definition. I'd be very interested for you to give us an objective quantitative definition of a "fairly healthy mind.")

Selam

1. From an Orthodox perspective, a "truly healthy" mind is only possible within an Orthodox framework. Secular therapists might "believe" that they are helping create a "truly healthy" mind, but Orthodoxy would say that secular therapy, though helpful, is not the "fullest therapy".

2. Thus, Orthodox contains the "fullest therapy" (just like it contains the "fullest revelation"), but that doesn't meant that secular therapy can't provide a degree of healthy-mindedness for those people who have not adopted Orthodoxy.

3. If Orthodoxy can co-exist with churches that do not exhibit "fullest revelation", surely Orthodoxy can co-exist with "therapies" that do not exhibit characteristics that belong to the "fullest therapy".

4. Not everyone is Orthodox, nor does everyone (at this moment in time) want to be Orthodox. For them, secular therapy may offer a very good alternative, until that time when they feel called to Orthodoxy.

5. Therefore, it is possible for an Orthodox Christian to engage in secular therapy, for the purpose of helping non-Orthodox individuals who have no intention of becoming Orthodox.

6. I would, thus, maintain that oftentimes the best thing that can be done for a person who is not Orthodox, is to engage them in secular therapy. For that person, at that time, secular therapy presents the "fullest therapy" (even though we know better ).

"For that person, at that time,..."

Once again, subjectivism rears its ugly head.

Selam

[PeterTheAleut]

Ms. Hoorah raised a point that I'm still waiting for others to address:

"How can the mind be truly healthy unless the mind is attuned to Christ?"

Selam

The role of the (state-licensed?) psychotherapist is devoid of spiritual guidance, which is the best done by clergy.

What this means from an Orthodox perspective is that a (state-licensed?) psychotherapist does not involve him/herself in the process of cultivating a "truly healthy" mind, which is fine, because many non-Orthodox patients/clients are perfectly happy with "fairly healthy" minds.

I presume that one can be a state-licensed psychotherapist who also does spiritual counseling on the side.

Your answer leads me to conclude:

1. You are admitting that secular behavioral therapy is not interested in helping patients cultivate a truly healthy mind.

2. Secular behavioral therapists and their clients are content with "fairly healthy minds." (Again, this is a very subjective definition. I'd be very interested for you to give us an objective quantitative definition of a "fairly healthy mind.")

Selam

1. From an Orthodox perspective, a "truly healthy" mind is only possible within an Orthodox framework. Secular therapists might "believe" that they are helping create a "truly healthy" mind, but Orthodoxy would say that secular therapy, though helpful, is not the "fullest therapy".

2. Thus, Orthodox contains the "fullest therapy" (just like it contains the "fullest revelation"), but that doesn't meant that secular therapy can't provide a degree of healthy-mindedness for those people who have not adopted Orthodoxy.

3. If Orthodoxy can co-exist with churches that do not exhibit "fullest revelation", surely Orthodoxy can co-exist with "therapies" that do not exhibit characteristics that belong to the "fullest therapy".

4. Not everyone is Orthodox, nor does everyone (at this moment in time) want to be Orthodox. For them, secular therapy may offer a very good alternative, until that time when they feel called to Orthodoxy.

5. Therefore, it is possible for an Orthodox Christian to engage in secular therapy, for the purpose of helping non-Orthodox individuals who have no intention of becoming Orthodox.

6. I would, thus, maintain that oftentimes the best thing that can be done for a person who is not Orthodox, is to engage them in secular therapy. For that person, at that time, secular therapy presents the "fullest therapy" (even though we know better ).

"For that person, at that time,..."

Once again, subjectivism rears its ugly head.

Selam

How so?  What does subjectivism look like, such that you're able to see it in the post you just quoted?

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Ms. Hoorah raised a point that I'm still waiting for others to address:

"How can the mind be truly healthy unless the mind is attuned to Christ?"

Selam

The role of the (state-licensed?) psychotherapist is devoid of spiritual guidance, which is the best done by clergy.

What this means from an Orthodox perspective is that a (state-licensed?) psychotherapist does not involve him/herself in the process of cultivating a "truly healthy" mind, which is fine, because many non-Orthodox patients/clients are perfectly happy with "fairly healthy" minds.

I presume that one can be a state-licensed psychotherapist who also does spiritual counseling on the side.

Your answer leads me to conclude:

1. You are admitting that secular behavioral therapy is not interested in helping patients cultivate a truly healthy mind.

2. Secular behavioral therapists and their clients are content with "fairly healthy minds." (Again, this is a very subjective definition. I'd be very interested for you to give us an objective quantitative definition of a "fairly healthy mind.")

Selam

1. From an Orthodox perspective, a "truly healthy" mind is only possible within an Orthodox framework. Secular therapists might "believe" that they are helping create a "truly healthy" mind, but Orthodoxy would say that secular therapy, though helpful, is not the "fullest therapy".

2. Thus, Orthodox contains the "fullest therapy" (just like it contains the "fullest revelation"), but that doesn't meant that secular therapy can't provide a degree of healthy-mindedness for those people who have not adopted Orthodoxy.

3. If Orthodoxy can co-exist with churches that do not exhibit "fullest revelation", surely Orthodoxy can co-exist with "therapies" that do not exhibit characteristics that belong to the "fullest therapy".

4. Not everyone is Orthodox, nor does everyone (at this moment in time) want to be Orthodox. For them, secular therapy may offer a very good alternative, until that time when they feel called to Orthodoxy.

5. Therefore, it is possible for an Orthodox Christian to engage in secular therapy, for the purpose of helping non-Orthodox individuals who have no intention of becoming Orthodox.

6. I would, thus, maintain that oftentimes the best thing that can be done for a person who is not Orthodox, is to engage them in secular therapy. For that person, at that time, secular therapy presents the "fullest therapy" (even though we know better ).

"For that person, at that time,..."

Once again, subjectivism rears its ugly head.

Selam

How so?  What does subjectivism look like, such that you're able to see it in the post you just quoted?

OK. Read it again:

"For that person at that time..."

A clear example of subjectivity and relativism.

Selam

[PeterTheAleut]

OK. Read it again:

"For that person at that time..."

A clear example of subjectivity and relativism.

Selam

OK.  Let me clarify this.  You're talking to someone who has little to no idea what the philosophy of subjectivism is and how it applies to this discussion.

[LBK]

OK.  Let me clarify this.  You're talking to someone who has little to no idea what the philosophy of subjectivism is and how it applies to this discussion.

For someone who prides himself on his grasp of logic, I find this statement of yours baffling. Surely you would know that a subjective position is based on one's own point of view, whereas an objective view is one drawn from a broad variety of opinions.

[PeterTheAleut]

OK.  Let me clarify this.  You're talking to someone who has little to no idea what the philosophy of subjectivism is and how it applies to this discussion.

For someone who prides himself on his grasp of logic, I find this statement of yours baffling. Surely you would know that a subjective position is based on one's own point of view, whereas an objective view is one drawn from a broad variety of opinions.

Why do you find my question baffling?  I'm not asking someone to define what a subjective position is.  I'm asking someone to define what he means by his use of the word subjectivism, as if this is some kind of philosophy akin to Ayn Rand's Objectivism.

[LBK]

Gebre is currently off-line, and therefore should be given the opportunity to answer for himself. However, may I venture to suggest that, in his use of the word subjectivism, he was not referring to any formal or espoused "philosophy", but simply using the word subjective as a noun? Methinks you may be reading far more into Gebre's post than he intended.

[PeterTheAleut]

Gebre is currently off-line, and therefore should be given the opportunity to answer for himself. However, may I venture to suggest that, in his use of the word subjectivism, he was not referring to any formal or espoused "philosophy", but simply using the word subjective as a noun? Methinks you may be reading far more into Gebre's post than he intended.

Or maybe just reading him differently.

[LBK]

Gebre is currently off-line, and therefore should be given the opportunity to answer for himself. However, may I venture to suggest that, in his use of the word subjectivism, he was not referring to any formal or espoused "philosophy", but simply using the word subjective as a noun? Methinks you may be reading far more into Gebre's post than he intended.

Or maybe just reading him differently.

Let's see what Gebre has to say for himself, shall we? 

[Jetavan]

....
"For that person, at that time,..."

Once again, subjectivism rears its ugly head.

Selam

Subjectivism? More like Pragmatism.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that "what works, is what is true" -- since evil can make the trains run on time, too.

However, I would posit that, for someone drowning in the sea, it makes more sense to save them from imminent death, than to try to change their philosophical assumptions about life.

[ozgeorge]

Why don't you just stick to the substance of the controversial practice of reparative therapy and leave your judgments of persons out of this thread?

Could it be because "reparative therapy" depends on passing judgment on persons?

So does addiction therapy. Addiction is bad, that's why you are in therapy for it.

Actually, no it doesn't. Addiction therapy does not depend on passing judgment on people with addictions.

[ozgeorge]

From an Orthodox perspective, a "truly healthy" mind is only possible within an Orthodox framework.

Mind or nous?

[Jetavan]

From an Orthodox perspective, a "truly healthy" mind is only possible within an Orthodox framework.

Mind or nous?

Good point. If an ill body can exist with a clear nous, can an ill mind exist with a clear nous?

[ozgeorge]

From an Orthodox perspective, a "truly healthy" mind is only possible within an Orthodox framework.

Mind or nous?

Good point. If an ill body can exist with a clear nous, can an ill mind exist with a clear nous?

I sure hope so, otherwise there is no hope of salvation for anyone.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

....
"For that person, at that time,..."

Once again, subjectivism rears its ugly head.

Selam

Subjectivism? More like Pragmatism.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that "what works, is what is true" -- since evil can make the trains run on time, too.

However, I would posit that, for someone drowning in the sea, it makes more sense to save them from imminent death, than to try to change their philosophical assumptions about life.

Hey Jetavan, I like your answer. You make an excellent point, and I mean that sincerely.

Of course, I would still aruge that pulling a drowning man out of the sea is objectively the logical and appropriate course of action.

Now this brings us back to the topic at hand in regards to "reparative therapy." First, let me say that I have not necessarily been strongly defending reparative therapy so much as I have been critical of secular psychotherapy. So I cannot say which approach is objectively better for the patient who is suffering from a mental disorder. All that I can say is that objectively Christ alone can heal and cure mankind's spiritual and physical diseases. Now Our Lord certainly works through secular doctors and even medication to bring healing to His children. I am not a Christian Scientist who eschews medicine and doctors. 

Considering your analogy, let's say that a homosexual patient is drowning in a sea of psychological anguish. The first thing I would advocate is a proper diagnosis of the mental disorder. Is he suffering from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia? Is he suffering from clinical depression? Is he emotionally distraught but has no signs of chemical imbalance? I would then say that the second course of action would be to determine whether or not the diagnosis is related to his homosexuality. Now, how can a secular psychotherapist determine whether or not his patient's mental disorder is related to his homosexuality when he operates with a prima facie assumption that homosexuality can never be associated with mental illness or emotional trauma? In other words, maybe the life preserver that would save this drowning man would be the truth about the morality of his homosexual behavior. So in that case, both the doctor's and the patient's worldview would be integral to the patients immediate salvation from destruction.

Sometimes, changing a person's philosophical outlook on life is the very thing that is needed to immediately rescue them from imminent destruction. If I wanted to save a heroin addict, the first thing I would do would be to tell them to stop using heroin and enter rehab. Their next fix could be the one that kills them. So, their health and salvation depends on immediately changing their worldview. They must change their belief system from "I need heroin" to "I need to get clean."

Sorry for rambling. I know that wasn't very concise, but I hope it made a little sense.

Selam   

[ialmisry]

Why don't you just stick to the substance of the controversial practice of reparative therapy and leave your judgments of persons out of this thread?

Could it be because "reparative therapy" depends on passing judgment on persons?

So does addiction therapy. Addiction is bad, that's why you are in therapy for it.

Actually, no it doesn't. Addiction therapy does not depend on passing judgment on people with addictions.

Yes it does. It depends on judging the behavior as wrong, it depends on making value judgments on choices of friends, behavior, etc.

Unfortunately it often turns out that the valude judgment made is how much insurance coverage the addict has.

[SDMPNS]

Homosexuals can be depressed,lose a loved one and mourn or have any of the mental conditions that other people have..its the homosexuality in and of itself which is not seen as disordered by the APA and numerous other professional organizations.
The Church feels differently and that is the Church's business...however the Church feels that ANY sexual expression outside of marriage is wrong...

[ialmisry]

Homosexuals can be depressed,lose a loved one and mourn or have any of the mental conditions that other people have..its the homosexuality in and of itself which is not seen as disordered by the APA and numerous other professional organizations.
The Church feels differently and that is the Church's business...however the Church feels that ANY sexual expression outside of marriage is wrong...

Evidently according to a number of members of the Church, it is not.

[ozgeorge]

Homosexuals can be depressed,lose a loved one and mourn or have any of the mental conditions that other people have..its the homosexuality in and of itself which is not seen as disordered by the APA and numerous other professional organizations.
The Church feels differently and that is the Church's business...however the Church feels that ANY sexual expression outside of marriage is wrong...

Evidently according to a number of members of the Church, it is not.

That's a bit judgemental isn't it? Just because an Orthodox Christian Psychologist does not challenge the religious beliefs of the heterodox and try and convert them to Orthodoxy does not mean they accept heresy or oppose evangelization does it? Are Orthodox teachers in public schools obliged to teach their heterodox or non-Christian students that their faith is incorrect?

[ialmisry]

Homosexuals can be depressed,lose a loved one and mourn or have any of the mental conditions that other people have..its the homosexuality in and of itself which is not seen as disordered by the APA and numerous other professional organizations.
The Church feels differently and that is the Church's business...however the Church feels that ANY sexual expression outside of marriage is wrong...

Evidently according to a number of members of the Church, it is not.

That's a bit judgemental isn't it?

Perhaps. So?

I Cor. 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Just because an Orthodox Christian Psychologist does not challenge the religious beliefs of the heterodox and try and convert them to Orthodoxy does not mean they accept heresy or oppose evangelization does it? Are Orthodox teachers in public schools obliged to teach their heterodox or non-Christian students that their faith is incorrect?

They are obligated to teach Truth. Your milage may vary.

Two years ago, with the previous textbook, I constantly was pointed out that the textbook was inaccurate in its REPEATED dogmatic pronouncements about overpopulation, and pointed out the facts of depopulation, which involved several value judgments.

[ozgeorge]

Just because an Orthodox Christian Psychologist does not challenge the religious beliefs of the heterodox and try and convert them to Orthodoxy does not mean they accept heresy or oppose evangelization does it? Are Orthodox teachers in public schools obliged to teach their heterodox or non-Christian students that their faith is incorrect?

They are obligated to teach Truth. Your milage may vary.

For me, the Truth is Christ. So what should I, as an Orthodox Christian Therapist, do for Muslim or Jewish patients in therapy?

[SDMPNS]

"First do no harm"...
and speak to that which is of Christ is every human being for all humans reflect the face of Christ.

[ialmisry]

Just because an Orthodox Christian Psychologist does not challenge the religious beliefs of the heterodox and try and convert them to Orthodoxy does not mean they accept heresy or oppose evangelization does it? Are Orthodox teachers in public schools obliged to teach their heterodox or non-Christian students that their faith is incorrect?

They are obligated to teach Truth. Your milage may vary.

For me, the Truth is Christ. So what should I, as an Orthodox Christian Therapist, do for Muslim or Jewish patients in therapy?

Say you have a Muslim patient, excuse, client.  She is having marital problems, perhaps related to the fact that her "husband" has two other wives (happens in the West). Do you ignore that that situation is fraught with problems?

Say you have a Jewish patient, distraught that, because their mother wasn't born Jewish, that they aren't Jewish, although they have been practicing Orthodox Judaism all their lives (happens: most I've known-and I doubt I've met them all-end up Conservative). Do you ignore the dangers of Phariseeism?

I fail to see the issue.  Missionaries don't withhold food and other aid from those God has put in their care until they confess Christ. Why is a non-Chrisitan patient, excuse me, client, any different?

[SDMPNS]

I respect the dignity of every human being as the creation of God who became as one of us.
I have had muslim pts and polygamy came up...It wa sdifficult to understand but the issue was that the pt was bipolar not in a family whose father had three wives..
What does this have to do with Reparative Therapy? Moderators?

[ozgeorge]

What does this have to do with Reparative Therapy? Moderators?

Everything. A 'reparative therapist" is a Christian missionary apparently, which is what I have been saying all along.

I fail to see the issue. 

Thats the problem.

[ialmisry]

What does this have to do with Reparative Therapy? Moderators?

Everything. A 'reparative therapist" is a Christian missionary apparently, which is what I have been saying all along.

I fail to see the issue. 

Thats the problem.

That you are making issues that don't exist. Yes, I see that.

[SDMPNS]

Ah..Ozgeorge..I understand..my mistake..you are correct..in fact I read some Reparative "therapy" material and the first part of the "therapy" consists of the therapist making sure that the patient understands that the therapist is christian