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Author Topic: Reparative Therapy is Dangerous to Christian Therapists  (Read 17428 times) Average Rating: 0
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ms.hoorah
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« Reply #180 on: August 17, 2009, 11:22:15 AM »

What if all the junkies

"Junkies"? Do you have value-laden terms for all patients?
I would never call people "junkies" as an Orthodox Christian, let alone a psychologist.
This is precisely the damage so called "reparative therapy" does and I thank God the APA has decided to declare it untherapeutic and not part of our practice as psychologists.

Do you actually work in psychology? Have you ever worked as an interventionist?  Have you ever worked in an alcohol/drug addction program? This is the term drug addicts use for themselves. 

What do you think about illegal drugs, like Ecstasy?  Are these illegal drugs not junk?  What about heroin?  Is this illegal drug, to which only 1-3% of addicts will
ever escape, NOT junk? 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 11:27:43 AM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #181 on: August 17, 2009, 11:30:40 AM »

The sad news is that many therapists did not take reparative therapy seriously as it was seen as part of th evangelical christian culture,which of coarse it is.I do not know of any Orthodox psychologists active in this movement. It was taken seriously after many therapists saw the heartache it was causing.
And the proof of the pudding is at the top of this page.
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« Reply #182 on: August 17, 2009, 11:45:17 AM »

What if all the junkies

"Junkies"? Do you have value-laden terms for all patients?
I would never call people "junkies" as an Orthodox Christian, let alone a psychologist.
This is precisely the damage so called "reparative therapy" does and I thank God the APA has decided to declare it untherapeutic and not part of our practice as psychologists.

You are once again using a strategy taught to combat the “Religious Wrong”. 

“Label everyone’s behavior ‘normal’, regardless of the serious mental and physical health risks to their behavior.”
 
Now you have moved into a strategy stating that drug abuse is a "normal' behavior NOT a behavior with dangerous mental and physical health risks...just like homosexuality.  Perhaps you should stop posting on the Orthodox Christian forum and begin spending your time to assist drug addicts to pool their expendable income to form a powerful coalition?




« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 11:48:32 AM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #183 on: August 17, 2009, 11:49:39 AM »

So should I call developmentally delayed people "retards" so as not to normalize them?
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« Reply #184 on: August 17, 2009, 12:03:13 PM »

So should I call developmentally delayed people "retards" so as not to normalize them?

If you had ever worked with illegal drug addicts in America, you would realize that "JUNKIE" IS A TERM THAT DRUG ADDICTS CALL THEMSELVES.  They are not offended by this word. 
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« Reply #185 on: August 17, 2009, 12:32:37 PM »

Ozgeorge, just to avoid offending you (alone), since drug addicts are not offended by using the street name for heroin (junk)+ the suffix "ie", I have edited this post so you and perhaps SDMPNS can respond.
------------------------------------------------
Reparative therapy is a VOLUNTARY therapy.

What if all the drug addicts decided to pool their income and use it to lobby for the “the Pro-Drug Addict/Pro-Heroin Movement”?  There is a very high failure rate with drug addiction programs and with this failure comes “heartache”.  Perhaps all drug addiction counselors should be discouraged from offering these programs because of the heartache that might ensue? Perhaps the APA should also label all VOLUNTARY drug addiction therapies as “non-therapeutic”?  Perhaps these counselors, treating drug addicts in VOLUNTARY programs, should have their careers maliciously destroyed by their colleagues.  You know how important it is to follow the vogue, secular opinion on all moral issues, right?  It would just appear so “unscientific”  and therefore, reflect poorly on the APA and my occupation, to not allow the Pro-Drug addict/Pro-Heroin Movement to mold counseling/psychology to the secular opinion (which they greatly influenced), right? 

If drug addicts are able to pool their expendable income and influence the secular public opinion in their favor, will you cast your vote, at the APA  Convention, to label all VOLUNTARY drug addiction treatment programs as non-therapeutic? 

.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:33:12 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #186 on: August 17, 2009, 12:54:44 PM »

Ozgeorge, just to avoid offending you (alone), since drug addicts are not offended by using the street name for heroin (junk)+ the suffix "ie", I have edited this post so you and perhaps SDMPNS can respond.
------------------------------------------------
Reparative therapy is a VOLUNTARY therapy.

What if all the drug addicts decided to pool their income and use it to lobby for the “the Pro-Drug Addict/Pro-Heroin Movement”?  There is a very high failure rate with drug addiction programs and with this failure comes “heartache”.  Perhaps all drug addiction counselors should be discouraged from offering these programs because of the heartache that might ensue? Perhaps the APA should also label all VOLUNTARY drug addiction therapies as “non-therapeutic”?  Perhaps these counselors, treating drug addicts in VOLUNTARY programs, should have their careers maliciously destroyed by their colleagues.  You know how important it is to follow the vogue, secular opinion on all moral issues, right?  It would just appear so “unscientific”  and therefore, reflect poorly on the APA and my occupation, to not allow the Pro-Drug addict/Pro-Heroin Movement to mold counseling/psychology to the secular opinion (which they greatly influenced), right? 

If drug addicts are able to pool their expendable income and influence the secular public opinion in their favor, will you cast your vote, at the APA  Convention, to label all VOLUNTARY drug addiction treatment programs as non-therapeutic? 

.

The boldface: isn't that the Methadone clinic?

I remember one addict who would nag her psychiatrist for upping the methadone dosage, and he would comply.  IIRC she was in the involuntary/locked/intesive (the name kept changing) treatment unit.  Not that she was the only one (nor was her psychiatrist), but I remember her like this:

http://ladiesinthered.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/gollum-pic.jpg
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/gollum.jpg

Precious.  As her reasoning on increasing the dosage: "Am I not in control of my own life?"  Evidently not.
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« Reply #187 on: August 17, 2009, 01:04:33 PM »

Uh huh. This just gets better all the time.
There you have it folks- on this page are just some of the reasons why "reparative therapy" is not a therapy....as well as the evidence of what its actually about.
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« Reply #188 on: August 17, 2009, 01:13:25 PM »

I want to be on record as having been at the APA Convention.I also voted FOR the resolution against reparative therapy.
I am worried that the fact that it is mainly based in the evangelical movement keeps it away from an Orthodox perspective given the western evangelical Christian mind set on original sin and the atonement.
Ms.Hoorah...I agree with OzGeorge more than I agree with you.or at least how you have presented yourself in this thread.
I also worked a long time ago at a substance abuse center and I NEVER and will NEVER call an addicted person a "junkie".I am not an addict and just because addicts call themselves a derogatory term does not give me permission to sit at that table.I am an Orthodox Christian and I must treat every person as an Ikon of Christ.
I consult at a Juvenile Justice Program and many of the youth there call themselves the "N" word { a pejorative word for African-Americans}.I NEVER call the youth that name either.
We Orthodox are better than that or at least this one wants to be.
A PhD clinical psychologist
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« Reply #189 on: August 17, 2009, 01:15:58 PM »

Uh huh. This just gets better all the time.
There you have it folks- on this page are just some of the reasons why "reparative therapy" is not a therapy....as well as the evidence of what its actually about.

You talking about Methodone "treatment?"
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« Reply #190 on: August 17, 2009, 01:31:02 PM »

I want to be on record as having been at the APA Convention.I also voted FOR the resolution against reparative therapy.
I am worried that the fact that it is mainly based in the evangelical movement keeps it away from an Orthodox perspective given the western evangelical Christian mind set on original sin and the atonement.
Ms.Hoorah...I agree with OzGeorge more than I agree with you.or at least how you have presented yourself in this thread.
I also worked a long time ago at a substance abuse center and I NEVER and will NEVER call an addicted person a "junkie".I am not an addict and just because addicts call themselves a derogatory term does not give me permission to sit at that table.I am an Orthodox Christian and I must treat every person as an Ikon of Christ.
I consult at a Juvenile Justice Program and many of the youth there call themselves the "N" word { a pejorative word for African-Americans}.I NEVER call the youth that name either.
We Orthodox are better than that or at least this one wants to be.
A PhD clinical psychologist
Thank you for restoring my faith in American therapy.
The internet has an amplifying effect, and it's easy to get a skewed view of what is actually going on in another country.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #191 on: August 17, 2009, 01:36:28 PM »

I want to be on record as having been at the APA Convention.I also voted FOR the resolution against reparative therapy.
I am worried that the fact that it is mainly based in the evangelical movement keeps it away from an Orthodox perspective given the western evangelical Christian mind set on original sin and the atonement.
Ms.Hoorah...I agree with OzGeorge more than I agree with you.or at least how you have presented yourself in this thread.
I also worked a long time ago at a substance abuse center and I NEVER and will NEVER call an addicted person a "junkie".I am not an addict and just because addicts call themselves a derogatory term does not give me permission to sit at that table.I am an Orthodox Christian and I must treat every person as an Ikon of Christ.
I consult at a Juvenile Justice Program and many of the youth there call themselves the "N" word { a pejorative word for African-Americans}.I NEVER call the youth that name either.
We Orthodox are better than that or at least this one wants to be.
A PhD clinical psychologist
Thank you for restoring my faith in American therapy.
The internet has an amplifying effect, and it's easy to get a skewed view of what is actually going on in another country.

So an anonymous post (I assume Dr. SDMPNS is not his name) on the internet restores your faith, because of course IT doesn't skew the view of what is going on in another country?
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« Reply #192 on: August 17, 2009, 02:43:59 PM »

"Junkies"? Do you have value-laden terms for all patients?


"Patients"?  Do Australians adhere to such outmoded terminology?    We prefer to call them "mental health consumers."
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« Reply #193 on: August 17, 2009, 03:50:54 PM »

I call them either patients or clients depending whether or not the institution uses the medical model.In the Department of Juvenile Justice they are called "youth".
However we should stick to the discussion about "reparative" therapy.
Stephen
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« Reply #194 on: August 17, 2009, 03:55:38 PM »

Ozgeorge, I have no intention to alter your world view of "biopsychiatry textbook". I've said this before, I think. And you don't seem to have understood what I've answered.

I respect this. But you refer to some issues that need to be answered in order to be clarified for other people who read and participate.

Quote
Right. So all patients on psychotropic medications should pop round to your shamans in Greece for the cure and give up their medications.
Give up the "medication madness", to be more accurate(laughing).  Smiley

Quote
Yes, it is quite obvious that you think that the "evil spirit theory of mental illness" is correct and that psychotropic medication does more harm than good (your words). So, how come in your strange world view, psychiatrists who prescribe psychotropic medications are not doing more harm than good?
I'm just repeating the views of multiply charismatic (contemporary Saint)Elder Porphyrios the Kapsokalyvite (1906-1991). I'm not stating anything new. Elder Porphyrios used to say that if you rely on drugs  (in fact: pharmaceutical industry marketable products) in order to stop the temptational phenomena, then you're in a fallacy! Maybe sth will happen sometimes, he said, but what if the temptation returns, he ensued?There are even people who swallow benzodiazepines in order to enter a bus. That's how you might end up, he said.

Quote
I see. Its a conspiracy.
No, it's the marketing means of promoting/pushing a kind of product in the market. It's one of the four P's(promotion). And it's, from the perspective of political science, the industrial state or the version of crony capitalism.  Anyways, these are vast issues in (real) social science. Smiley

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« Reply #195 on: August 17, 2009, 04:11:17 PM »

Quote
Actually no, thats not true. But at any rate, 30 or 40 years ago the dangers of smoking were not understood. 30 or 40 years ago there was no internet for you to have a soapbox for you "evil spirit theory of mental illness". You see, science advances as more knowledge is gained. You, however, are still stuck in a primitive belief system which allows you to believe that illness is caused by evil spirits.
The dangers of smoking were suppressed by the huge vested interests of tobacco companies. It's a very good example in order to understand why false theories are pushed instead of true science.


Quote
I see. Well perhaps in the school of economics you don't actually get much of a chance to study the research into neurotransmitters, but its there, and its science (no matter how much you shut your eyes, plug your ears and go "La, la, la, la, la,...."
I know what a neurotransmitter is. And that's what makes the biopsychiatry theories so absurd, in fact. The rest about neurotransmitters (is speculation that) comes from Research and Development sectors within the market.

Quote
Oh, most definitely. The whole MDMA (Ecstasy) market depends on the fact that MDMA is able to increase Serotonin levels, and SSRI's do the same. Strange how they work on neurotransmitters and not demons.
It has never been proven that SSRI's raise anything or that feelings of despair or athymia, acedia etc. are caused by lowered level of n-t. But it has been proven that they are as effective as a sugar pill(placebo) in "healing power".

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Where do thoughts and emotions come from if not the brain, and what is the brain other than an organ of the body?
Okay, obviously, the anthropology you believe in has nothing to do with Orthodoxy. It's a western rationalist model of the 18th century.The brain, the human soul/existence, is only the first of the three sources of a human's thoughts. Emotions: why does Apostle Paul talk about the fruit of the Spirit? Happiness, joy, serenity, abstinence, love and so on? And it's the plain everyday experience of prayers of, ehm, some billion christians.  Wink  Smiley
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« Reply #196 on: August 17, 2009, 04:42:17 PM »

I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience. 
As a Roman Catholic applying your moral views on others?

That is an interesting contribution to the thread, George.  What would you see as the substantive differences between Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox with their moral teaching on homosexuality?

Clearly you completely missed the point.
It doesn't matter if Ms. Hoorah is RC, Hindu, Bahai, Atheist  or anything else.
A psychotherapist is not an evangelist. Our job is not to apply or impose our moral or political views on anyone.
That's your job, remember?
If Ms. Hoorah wishes to practice as a Priest, let them be a Priest, but psychotherapy is not a front for pretending to be one.

The thread is entitled "Christian Therapists".  Judging from what you say you are able to leave your Christian principles at the front door of the ward or clinic or the hotline helpdesk but obviously other Christians do not do that.  So my question in response to your contribution is valid but you are not the person able to respond to it.
Judging is, as we know, part of your job, so when you say "judging from what you say", you're only doing your job. But a Psychotherapist's job is not to "judge from what people say", nor to impose their moral beliefs on the patient. In order to do this effectively, they must remain value neutral in their therapy, which does not (as many misunderstand) mean that they have no values, but rather, it is a recognition that the expert in a patient's psychological problems is the patient themselves.
If a "Christian Therapist" is required to impose their moral and value system on patients, then they can only treat Christians or those willing to accept Christianity's teaching. Which, as I point out above, is the role of an evangelist, not a Psychotherapist.

So if someone asked for a suicide cocktail because his girlfriend/boyfriend broke up with him, would you prescribe it?
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« Reply #197 on: August 17, 2009, 05:10:33 PM »

of coarse not,,,thats murder..and against the law both human and Divine.
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« Reply #198 on: August 17, 2009, 05:37:11 PM »

of coarse not,,,thats murder..and against the law both human and Divine.

So?  Until the Supreme Court decided to abolish stare decisis in Lawerence v. Texas, so was homosexual acts.

The decision of a Supremer Court still stands, though.
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« Reply #199 on: August 17, 2009, 06:10:20 PM »

I want to be on record as having been at the APA Convention.I also voted FOR the resolution against reparative therapy.
I am worried that the fact that it is mainly based in the evangelical movement keeps it away from an Orthodox perspective given the western evangelical Christian mind set on original sin and the atonement.
Ms.Hoorah...I agree with OzGeorge more than I agree with you.or at least how you have presented yourself in this thread.
I also worked a long time ago at a substance abuse center and I NEVER and will NEVER call an addicted person a "junkie".I am not an addict and just because addicts call themselves a derogatory term does not give me permission to sit at that table.I am an Orthodox Christian and I must treat every person as an Ikon of Christ.
I consult at a Juvenile Justice Program and many of the youth there call themselves the "N" word { a pejorative word for African-Americans}.I NEVER call the youth that name either.
We Orthodox are better than that or at least this one wants to be.
A PhD clinical psychologist

Heroin addicts in any socioeconomic class, except for the VERY highest income level, call themselves and other heroin addicts “junkies”.  I now understand why you are offended by the word “junkie”.  Your patients in the highest socioeconomic class don’t desire to be associated with less-affluent and indigent heroin addicts or the names that less-affluent heroin addicts call themselves and others like them.   

Junkie is only an offensive term if you are an elitist.  Heroin’s street name is “junk”.....get over it.   There are no discriminatory references (racial, age, gender, or sexual preference) with the word “junkie” EXCEPT that it is sometimes used by the less affluent.   By being offended by a word that has zero negative connotations, except for income level $$$$$,  I can assume that ozgeorge and you are elitists.  Since you are elitists, I will assume that  (if you actually practice) you think addicts in the highest socioeconomic class should receive a different treatment that those with less income.  Guess what?  If they are admitted to the inpatient side, they WILL share a room with a less affluent addict/junkie/rider.  Any competent inpatient clinician will see to this roommate assignment.  An addict is an addict  .............a junkie is a junkie   .....a rider is a rider.

Why don’t you fellows try expanding the socioeconomic demographics of your patient population?   Practicing Orthodoxy encompasses more than just stating that you are Orthodox and being born into a  particular ethnic group.

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« Reply #200 on: August 17, 2009, 06:27:46 PM »

How do you know the socioeconomic level of my patients? Aren't you assuming? And you know what they say about assuming!
Take a deep breath and consider your words carefully!
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« Reply #201 on: August 17, 2009, 06:32:28 PM »

"Practicing Orthodoxy encompasses more than just stating that you are Orthodox and being born into a  particular ethnic group."

I have never mentioned which ethnic group I am part of other than my nationality which is American.

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« Reply #202 on: August 17, 2009, 06:57:22 PM »

How do you know the socioeconomic level of my patients? Aren't you assuming? And you know what they say about assuming!
Take a deep breath and consider your words carefully!

Re-read my post.  Ozgeorge and you were offended by the word "junkie" which only offends elitists and wealthy patients that are in denial.

The physiological mechanisms involved with the addiction to diacetylmorphine are the same for the rich addict as they are for the poor addict.  A rich heroin addict is an addict.  A rich heroin addict is a junkie.  A rich heroin addict is a rider.   No matter how much the rich heroin addict wants his disease to be more lovely, more special, more different from the poor addict’s disease, it physiologically isn’t!  He/she is an addict and a junkie and a rider.

What if all the heroin addicts decided to pool their income and use it to lobby for the “Pro-Heroin Movement”?  There is a very high failure rate with heroin addiction programs and with this failure comes “heartache”.  Perhaps all heroin addiction counselors should be discouraged from offering these programs because of the heartache that might ensue? Perhaps the APA should also label all VOLUNTARY  heroin-addiction therapies as “non-therapeutic”?  Should these counselors, assisting heroin addicts in VOLUNTARY programs, have their careers maliciously damaged by their colleagues.  Is it important to follow the vogue, secular opinion on all  issues in your occupation?  Is agreeing with the "Religious Wrong"  so “unscientific” appearing and unpopular, that you are worried about it reflecting poorly on the APA and therefore, your occupation? Should you, as an Orthodox Christian, allow the Pro-Heroin Movement to mold counseling/psychology to the secular opinion, which in this fictitious scenario is greatly influenced by the Pro-Heroin Movement? 
 
If drug addicts are able to pool their expendable income and influence the secular public opinion in their favor, will you cast your vote, at the APA  Convention, to label all VOLUNTARY heroin treatment programs as non-therapeutic? 

Now apply your answers to the homosexual individuals who VOLUNTARILY seek  forms of reparative counseling.  Also apply your answers to the APA's recent statement.
_____________
Answer to your other post:
Orthodoxy requires EFFORT.  Just enrolling in the "Orthodox" program does not make one "Orthodox".

.

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« Reply #203 on: August 17, 2009, 07:03:40 PM »

I want to be on record as having been at the APA Convention.I also voted FOR the resolution against reparative therapy.
I am worried that the fact that it is mainly based in the evangelical movement keeps it away from an Orthodox perspective given the western evangelical Christian mind set on original sin and the atonement.
Ms.Hoorah...I agree with OzGeorge more than I agree with you.or at least how you have presented yourself in this thread.
I also worked a long time ago at a substance abuse center and I NEVER and will NEVER call an addicted person a "junkie".I am not an addict and just because addicts call themselves a derogatory term does not give me permission to sit at that table.I am an Orthodox Christian and I must treat every person as an Ikon of Christ.
I consult at a Juvenile Justice Program and many of the youth there call themselves the "N" word { a pejorative word for African-Americans}.I NEVER call the youth that name either.
We Orthodox are better than that or at least this one wants to be.
A PhD clinical psychologist

Heroin addicts in any socioeconomic class, except for the VERY highest income level, call themselves and other heroin addicts “junkies”.  I now understand why you are offended by the word “junkie”.  Your patients in the highest socioeconomic class don’t desire to be associated with less-affluent and indigent heroin addicts or the names that less-affluent heroin addicts call themselves and others like them.   

Junkie is only an offensive term if you are an elitist.  Heroin’s street name is “junk”.....get over it.   There are no discriminatory references (racial, age, gender, or sexual preference) with the word “junkie” EXCEPT that it is sometimes used by the less affluent.   By being offended by a word that has zero negative connotations, except for income level $$$$$,  I can assume that ozgeorge and you are elitists.  Since you are elitists, I will assume that  (if you actually practice) you think addicts in the highest socioeconomic class should receive a different treatment that those with less income.  Guess what?  If they are admitted to the inpatient side, they WILL share a room with a less affluent addict/junkie/rider.  Any competent inpatient clinician will see to this roommate assignment.  An addict is an addict  .............a junkie is a junkie   .....a rider is a rider.

Why don’t you fellows try expanding the socioeconomic demographics of your patient population?   Practicing Orthodoxy encompasses more than just stating that you are Orthodox and being born into a  particular ethnic group.



Is entitlement no longer a clinical issue either?
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« Reply #204 on: August 17, 2009, 07:08:17 PM »

I want to be on record as having been at the APA Convention.I also voted FOR the resolution against reparative therapy.
I am worried that the fact that it is mainly based in the evangelical movement keeps it away from an Orthodox perspective given the western evangelical Christian mind set on original sin and the atonement.
Ms.Hoorah...I agree with OzGeorge more than I agree with you.or at least how you have presented yourself in this thread.
I also worked a long time ago at a substance abuse center and I NEVER and will NEVER call an addicted person a "junkie".I am not an addict and just because addicts call themselves a derogatory term does not give me permission to sit at that table.I am an Orthodox Christian and I must treat every person as an Ikon of Christ.
I consult at a Juvenile Justice Program and many of the youth there call themselves the "N" word { a pejorative word for African-Americans}.I NEVER call the youth that name either.
We Orthodox are better than that or at least this one wants to be.
A PhD clinical psychologist

Heroin addicts in any socioeconomic class, except for the VERY highest income level, call themselves and other heroin addicts “junkies”.  I now understand why you are offended by the word “junkie”.  Your patients in the highest socioeconomic class don’t desire to be associated with less-affluent and indigent heroin addicts or the names that less-affluent heroin addicts call themselves and others like them.   

Junkie is only an offensive term if you are an elitist.  Heroin’s street name is “junk”.....get over it.   There are no discriminatory references (racial, age, gender, or sexual preference) with the word “junkie” EXCEPT that it is sometimes used by the less affluent.   By being offended by a word that has zero negative connotations, except for income level $$$$$,  I can assume that ozgeorge and you are elitists.  Since you are elitists, I will assume that  (if you actually practice) you think addicts in the highest socioeconomic class should receive a different treatment that those with less income.  Guess what?  If they are admitted to the inpatient side, they WILL share a room with a less affluent addict/junkie/rider.  Any competent inpatient clinician will see to this roommate assignment.  An addict is an addict  .............a junkie is a junkie   .....a rider is a rider.

Why don’t you fellows try expanding the socioeconomic demographics of your patient population?   Practicing Orthodoxy encompasses more than just stating that you are Orthodox and being born into a  particular ethnic group.



Is entitlement no longer a clinical issue either?

Apparently not if you are voluntarily seeking to leave the homosexual lifestyle.
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« Reply #205 on: August 17, 2009, 07:17:38 PM »

Wht pray tell is the Orthodox program? Ive heard of the Orthodox Church,Orthodox Faith but never the Orthodox program..please explain.
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« Reply #206 on: August 17, 2009, 07:37:25 PM »

Wht pray tell is the Orthodox program? Ive heard of the Orthodox Church,Orthodox Faith but never the Orthodox program..please explain.

A shortened version of your above description (My sclera is abnormally dry or my eyeballs are red and tired.... I hoped to shorten my statement to prevent additional typing.  Please forgive). Are you going to answer the questions in reply #202?
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« Reply #207 on: August 17, 2009, 07:52:16 PM »

Methadone works very well in maintenance of heroin addiction.heroin is legal in Switzerland although I have not read any scientific papers on it..anecdotally it seems to work out although Zurich is a mecca for heroin addicts much to the dismay of the Swiss.
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« Reply #208 on: August 17, 2009, 08:21:20 PM »

Methadone works very well in maintenance of heroin addiction.heroin is legal in Switzerland although I have not read any scientific papers on it..anecdotally it seems to work out although Zurich is a mecca for heroin addicts much to the dismay of the Swiss.
I cannot dwell on what ifs...castles built on air are just that...build your castles with someone else

Here are the questions in reply #202.

What if all the heroin addicts decided to pool their income and use it to lobby for the “Pro-Heroin Movement”?  There is a very high failure rate with heroin addiction programs and with this failure comes “heartache”. Perhaps all heroin addiction counselors should be discouraged from offering these programs because of the heartache that might ensue?

Perhaps the APA should also label all VOLUNTARY  heroin-addiction therapies as “non-therapeutic”?

Should these counselors, assisting heroin addicts in VOLUNTARY programs, have their careers maliciously damaged by their colleagues?

Is it important to follow the vogue, secular opinion on all issues in your occupation?


Is agreeing with the "Religious Wrong"  so “unscientific” appearing and unpopular, that you are worried about it reflecting poorly on the APA and therefore, your occupation?

Should you, as an Orthodox Christian, allow the Pro-Heroin Movement to mold counseling/psychology to the secular opinion, which in this fictitious scenario is greatly influenced by the Pro-Heroin Movement?

If drug addicts are able to pool their expendable income and influence the secular public opinion in their favor, will you cast your vote, at the APA  Convention, to label all VOLUNTARY heroin treatment programs as non-therapeutic?

Think about your answers in regard to these questions. Do they change if you substitute gay/lesbian/transgendered alliances for the fictitious Pro-Heroin Movement.  Also, do your answers change if you substitute gay/lesbian/transgendered for the words heroin users?  I am trying to help you realize that there is a different standard applied to "sexual issues" that are known to cause serious
mental and physical health problems.   The homosexual lifestyle brings serious mental and physical health problems and so does
heroin addiction......please don't attempt to say  I believe homosexuals are all heroin addicts....that is not at all
what I am trying to state or believe.  I chose heroin addiction because it is usually an understood that heroin addiction brings serious mental and physical health risks.  Please do not make me post the article from Dr. John Diggs, again, that gives precise examples of the serious mental and physical health risks of practicing homosexuality.


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« Reply #209 on: August 17, 2009, 08:36:27 PM »




This is great. I can just sit back and let the "reparative therapy" advocates show how atrocious and untherapeutic this approach is and all the reasons its been banned by the Psychological Profession.

Please, carry on.
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« Reply #210 on: August 17, 2009, 08:37:34 PM »

Ms. Hoorah raised a point that I'm still waiting for others to address:

"How can the mind be truly healthy unless the mind is attuned to Christ?"

Selam
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« Reply #211 on: August 17, 2009, 09:04:05 PM »

of coarse not,,,thats murder..and against the law both human and Divine.

So?  Until the Supreme Court decided to abolish stare decisis in Lawerence v. Texas, so was homosexual acts.

The decision of a Supremer Court still stands, though.
Homosexual acts were deemed murder?
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« Reply #212 on: August 17, 2009, 09:09:25 PM »

Ms. Hoorah raised a point that I'm still waiting for others to address:

"How can the mind be truly healthy unless the mind is attuned to Christ?"

Selam
The role of the (state-licensed?) psychotherapist is devoid of spiritual guidance, which is the best done by clergy.

What this means from an Orthodox perspective is that a (state-licensed?) psychotherapist does not involve him/herself in the process of cultivating a "truly healthy" mind, which is fine, because many non-Orthodox patients/clients are perfectly happy with "fairly healthy" minds.

I presume that one can be a state-licensed psychotherapist who also does spiritual counseling on the side.
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« Reply #213 on: August 17, 2009, 09:31:37 PM »




This is great. I can just sit back and let the "reparative therapy" advocates show how atrocious and untherapeutic this approach is and all the reasons its been banned by the Psychological Profession.

Please, carry on.


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« Reply #214 on: August 17, 2009, 09:39:55 PM »

of coarse not,,,thats murder..and against the law both human and Divine.

So?  Until the Supreme Court decided to abolish stare decisis in Lawerence v. Texas, so was homosexual acts.

The decision of a Supremer Court still stands, though.
Homosexual acts were deemed murder?

Actually they were a capital offense. So yes.

But I was referring to the FACT that homosexual acts were against the law both human and divine until the Supreme Court decided to reverse its recent decision (less than 20 years) of Bowers v. Hardwick.  Divine law hasn't changed.
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« Reply #215 on: August 17, 2009, 10:45:44 PM »

Ms. Hoorah raised a point that I'm still waiting for others to address:

"How can the mind be truly healthy unless the mind is attuned to Christ?"

Selam
The role of the (state-licensed?) psychotherapist is devoid of spiritual guidance, which is the best done by clergy.

What this means from an Orthodox perspective is that a (state-licensed?) psychotherapist does not involve him/herself in the process of cultivating a "truly healthy" mind, which is fine, because many non-Orthodox patients/clients are perfectly happy with "fairly healthy" minds.

I presume that one can be a state-licensed psychotherapist who also does spiritual counseling on the side.

Your answer leads me to conclude:

1. You are admitting that secular behavioral therapy is not interested in helping patients cultivate a truly healthy mind.

2. Secular behavioral therapists and their clients are content with "fairly healthy minds." (Again, this is a very subjective definition. I'd be very interested for you to give us an objective quantitative definition of a "fairly healthy mind.")

Selam
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« Reply #216 on: August 17, 2009, 10:50:25 PM »

Your answer leads me to conclude:

1. You are admitting that secular behavioral therapy is not interested in helping patients cultivate a truly healthy mind.

2. Secular behavioral therapists and their clients are content with "fairly healthy minds." (Again, this is a very subjective definition. I'd be very interested for you to give us an objective quantitative definition of a "fairly healthy mind.")

Selam

And that answer leads me to conclude that you think that only a Christian can be a psychologist.
Which is exactly why "reparative therapy" is religion (American Evangelical Protestant religion to be precise) and not psychology.
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« Reply #217 on: August 17, 2009, 10:50:36 PM »

The role of the (state-licensed?) psychotherapist is devoid of spiritual guidance, which is the best done by clergy.
Thank you! This one line summarizes what I've been saying all along:

unless she works with people who believe in the same faith she has, whatever it may be.
Even in this case, a psychotherapist must remain value-free in their psychotherapy.
Firstly, there is the danger of countertransference.
Secondly, as I pointed out earlier, a psychotherapist is not a minister of religion. Although I am both a Christian and a therapist, I will not treat patients who say they only want to be treated by a "Christian therapist". What they want is a minister of religion, not a therapist, and I refer them there.
You wouldn't ask an electrician to do your carpentry, and a carpenter who knows a little about electrical fitting is neither a better carpenter for it, nor the person to get to install your chandelier.

What is being repaired if not the person's sexual preference? Their moral values? Is that really the role of psychotherapy, or is that more the role of an Evangelist?

All the Behavioural Sciences use data collected from measurable, repeatable experiments as well as statistics of observed phenomena. What we know about behaviour of individuals and groups is not plucked from thin air- it is observed, recorded, experimented on, measured etc. It is science.
Personal religious convictions are not science. From a scientific perspective, personal religious convictions are not measurable and at best they constitute an untested (and untestable) hypothesis and at worst they are a delusion.

It doesn't matter if Ms. Hoorah is RC, Hindu, Bahai, Atheist  or anything else.
A psychotherapist is not an evangelist. Our job is not to apply or impose our moral or political views on anyone.
That's your job, remember?
If Ms. Hoorah wishes to practice as a Priest, let them be a Priest, but psychotherapy is not a front for pretending to be one.

Judging is, as we know, part of your job, so when you say "judging from what you say", you're only doing your job. But a Psychotherapist's job is not to "judge from what people say", nor to impose their moral beliefs on the patient. In order to do this effectively, they must remain value neutral in their therapy, which does not (as many misunderstand) mean that they have no values, but rather, it is a recognition that the expert in a patient's psychological problems is the patient themselves.
If a "Christian Therapist" is required to impose their moral and value system on patients, then they can only treat Christians or those willing to accept Christianity's teaching. Which, as I point out above, is the role of an evangelist, not a Psychotherapist.


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« Reply #218 on: August 17, 2009, 11:17:35 PM »

Your answer leads me to conclude:

1. You are admitting that secular behavioral therapy is not interested in helping patients cultivate a truly healthy mind.

2. Secular behavioral therapists and their clients are content with "fairly healthy minds." (Again, this is a very subjective definition. I'd be very interested for you to give us an objective quantitative definition of a "fairly healthy mind.")

Selam

And that answer leads me to conclude that you think that only a Christian can be a psychologist.
Which is exactly why "reparative therapy" is religion (American Evangelical Protestant religion to be precise) and not psychology.

Well perhaps you and I can agree to disagree on this point:

I have much more faith in the "religion" of reparative therapy than I do in the sorcery of secular psychology.

I know you feel the opposite, so we'll let others decide for themselves.

Selam
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« Reply #219 on: August 17, 2009, 11:48:39 PM »

Your answer leads me to conclude:

1. You are admitting that secular behavioral therapy is not interested in helping patients cultivate a truly healthy mind.

2. Secular behavioral therapists and their clients are content with "fairly healthy minds." (Again, this is a very subjective definition. I'd be very interested for you to give us an objective quantitative definition of a "fairly healthy mind.")

Selam

And that answer leads me to conclude that you think that only a Christian can be a psychologist.
Which is exactly why "reparative therapy" is religion (American Evangelical Protestant religion to be precise) and not psychology.

and why the policies of the APA is politics (gay right activism to be precise) and not psychology.
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« Reply #220 on: August 18, 2009, 12:21:08 AM »

I have much more faith in the "religion" of reparative therapy than I do in the sorcery of secular psychology.

Oh good. Enjoy it.
In the meantime, don't complain when secular psychology rejects "reparative therapy" as American Evangelical Protestant religious mumbo-jumbo.
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« Reply #221 on: August 18, 2009, 12:29:36 AM »

I have much more faith in the "religion" of reparative therapy than I do in the sorcery of secular psychology.

Oh good. Enjoy it.
In the meantime, don't complain when secular psychology rejects "reparative therapy" as American Evangelical Protestant religious mumbo-jumbo.

I won't complain anymore than you complain about Chrisitain psychologists that encourage spiritual morality as integral to mental health.

Selam 
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« Reply #222 on: August 18, 2009, 12:55:17 AM »

I have much more faith in the "religion" of reparative therapy than I do in the sorcery of secular psychology.

Oh good. Enjoy it.
In the meantime, don't complain when secular psychology rejects "reparative therapy" as American Evangelical Protestant religious mumbo-jumbo.

I won't complain anymore than you complain about Chrisitain psychologists that encourage spiritual morality as integral to mental health.

Selam 
Christian Psychologists can encourage Christian spiritual morality all they want- it's just that they can't pretend it's "psychotherapy" any more.
Should an Orthodox Christian Therapist treating a heterodox Christian seek to correct their false beliefs? Isn't heresy the most damaging thing to a person? Why doesn't "reparative therapy" seek to "repair" heresy if its focus is that spiritual well-being is fundamental to mental well being? Why select only homosexuality for repair?
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« Reply #223 on: August 18, 2009, 01:54:19 AM »

Junkie is only an offensive term if you are an elitist.  Heroin’s street name is “junk”.....get over it.   There are no discriminatory references (racial, age, gender, or sexual preference) with the word “junkie” EXCEPT that it is sometimes used by the less affluent.   By being offended by a word that has zero negative connotations, except for income level $$$$$,  I can assume that ozgeorge and you are elitists.  Since you are elitists, I will assume that  (if you actually practice) you think addicts in the highest socioeconomic class should receive a different treatment that those with less income.  Guess what?  If they are admitted to the inpatient side, they WILL share a room with a less affluent addict/junkie/rider.  Any competent inpatient clinician will see to this roommate assignment.  An addict is an addict  .............a junkie is a junkie   .....a rider is a rider.

Why don’t you fellows try expanding the socioeconomic demographics of your patient population?   Practicing Orthodoxy encompasses more than just stating that you are Orthodox and being born into a  particular ethnic group.


(emphases mine)

ms.hoorah, how is the above not ad hominem logic thrown in to dismiss your opponents as "elitists" who have no authority to speak in this discussion?  How is this judgment that ozgeorge and SDMPNS are elitists not a personal judgment on your part?  What relevance does your personal ad hominem judgment even pose to this discussion?  IOW, what the **** does it matter to this discussion what you think of the personal characters of ozgeorge and SDMPNS?  Why don't you just stick to the substance of the controversial practice of reparative therapy and leave your judgments of persons out of this thread?
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« Reply #224 on: August 18, 2009, 08:22:57 AM »

I have much more faith in the "religion" of reparative therapy than I do in the sorcery of secular psychology.

Oh good. Enjoy it.
In the meantime, don't complain when secular psychology rejects "reparative therapy" as American Evangelical Protestant religious mumbo-jumbo.

I won't complain anymore than you complain about Chrisitain psychologists that encourage spiritual morality as integral to mental health.

Selam 
Christian Psychologists can encourage Christian spiritual morality all they want- it's just that they can't pretend it's "psychotherapy" any more.
Should an Orthodox Christian Therapist treating a heterodox Christian seek to correct their false beliefs? Isn't heresy the most damaging thing to a person? Why doesn't "reparative therapy" seek to "repair" heresy if its focus is that spiritual well-being is fundamental to mental well being? Why select only homosexuality for repair?
Same reason addiction is selected for repair.
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