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Author Topic: Reparative Therapy is Dangerous to Christian Therapists  (Read 17870 times) Average Rating: 0
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ms.hoorah
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« on: August 07, 2009, 01:18:23 PM »

Today at The American Psychological Association, Exodus International is going to discuss their findings from their six-year-long study on reparative therapy for homosexuals.  Last Tuesday, the APA Council of Representatives decide to vote 125-4 against reparative therapy stating that it “was not a therapeutic response”  for therapists to suggest this to homosexual clients.  (read: We will assist any client, to which you have suggested reparative therapy, to take legal action against you. We will assist our finest and most famous psychologists to  testify against you in court.   We will permanently cancel your membership to the APA . We will not allow renewal of your malpractice liability insurance, purchased at a more reasonable price, through the APA. We will encourage your employer to fire/discipline you.  We will bring your dangerous behavior before your state licensing board in an effort to suspend or remove your license. We will make it difficult or impossible for you to complete your required CEUs needed for your state’s license renewal.)

For those readers not practicing in a medical field, this is the APA declaring that reparative therapy is now malpractice.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090805/ap_on_re_us/us_psychologists_gays

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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2009, 01:21:17 PM »

Today at The American Psychological Association, Exodus International is going to discuss their findings from their six-year-long study on reparative therapy for homosexuals.  Last Tuesday, the APA Council of Representatives decide to vote 125-4 against reparative therapy stating that it “was not a therapeutic response”  for therapists to suggest this to homosexual clients.  (read: We will assist any client, to which you have suggested reparative therapy, to take legal action against you. We will assist our finest and most famous psychologists to  testify against you in court.   We will permanently cancel your membership to the APA . We will not allow renewal of your malpractice liability insurance, purchased at a more reasonable price, through the APA. We will encourage your employer to fire/discipline you.  We will bring your dangerous behavior before your state licensing board in an effort to suspend or remove your license. We will make it difficult or impossible for you to complete your required CEUs needed for your state’s license renewal.)

For those readers not practicing in a medical field, this is the APA declaring that reparative therapy is now malpractice.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090805/ap_on_re_us/us_psychologists_gays



It would be interesting if they took the same stand against those who "solve" the problem with a sex change.
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2009, 01:28:37 PM »

http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html

I have never read that surgeons assisting the transgendered are committing malpractice. 
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 01:40:18 PM »

I see that they have arrogated to themselves the ability to give spiritual advice:

Quote
Instead, the APA urged therapists to consider multiple options — that could range from celibacy to switching churches — for helping clients whose sexual orientation and religious faith conflict.

Quote
Judith Glassgold, a Highland Park, N.J., psychologist who chaired the task force, said she hoped the document could help calm the polarized debate between religious conservatives who believe in the possibility of changing sexual orientation and the many mental health professionals who reject that option.

"Both sides have to educate themselves better," Glassgold said in an interview. "The religious psychotherapists have to open up their eyes to the potential positive aspects of being gay or lesbian. Secular therapists have to recognize that some people will choose their faith over their sexuality."

In dealing with gay clients from conservative faiths, says the report, therapists should be "very cautious" about suggesting treatments aimed at altering their same-sex attractions.

Evidently, altering their church membership warrents no such caution.

Quote
She suggested that devout clients could focus on overarching aspects of religion such as hope and forgiveness in order to transcend negative beliefs about homosexuality, and either remain part of their original faith within its limits — for example, by embracing celibacy — or find a faith that welcomes gays.

"There's no evidence to say that change therapies work, but these vulnerable people are tempted to try them, and when they don't work, they feel doubly terrified," Glassgold said. "You should be honest with people and say, 'This is not likely to change your sexual orientation, but we can help explore what options you have.'"

The also prejudiced the conclusions from the start:
Quote
The APA task force took as a starting point the belief that homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexuality, not a disorder, and that it nonetheless remains stigmatized in ways that can have negative consequences.

A different conclusion was reached by the ban on those egaged in homosexual activity in adopting etc, research that upheld the ban in the Supreme Court, but was not allowed in full in the legal action to uphold a similar ban in Arkansas.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ResearchReviewHomosexualParenting.pdf

one of the rare cases where the gay agenda lost in court, so they have to depend on extra legal means.  Like the APA.
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2009, 02:51:32 PM »

Here is a very scary statement from Judith Glassgold, chairman of the task force.   “Therapist should be “very cautious” about suggesting treatments aimed at altering their (homosexual clients’) same-sex attractions."   Coming from a psychologist this statement will have*** deep hidden meanings. **** One of those hidden meanings is that the APA has declared reparative therapy as malpractice and “therapists that dare to implement such therapy will face the repercussions.” 

It appears  that in American, non-Christian psychology, the homosexual customer is always right (definitely not a pun).
 
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2009, 04:43:20 PM »

Today at The American Psychological Association, Exodus International is going to discuss their findings from their six-year-long study on reparative therapy for homosexuals.  Last Tuesday, the APA Council of Representatives decide to vote 125-4 against reparative therapy stating that it “was not a therapeutic response”  for therapists to suggest this to homosexual clients.  (read: We will assist any client, to which you have suggested reparative therapy, to take legal action against you. We will assist our finest and most famous psychologists to  testify against you in court.   We will permanently cancel your membership to the APA . We will not allow renewal of your malpractice liability insurance, purchased at a more reasonable price, through the APA. We will encourage your employer to fire/discipline you.  We will bring your dangerous behavior before your state licensing board in an effort to suspend or remove your license. We will make it difficult or impossible for you to complete your required CEUs needed for your state’s license renewal.)

For those readers not practicing in a medical field, this is the APA declaring that reparative therapy is now malpractice.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090805/ap_on_re_us/us_psychologists_gays



It would be interesting if they took the same stand against those who "solve" the problem with a sex change.

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/transgender.pdf

THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA recognizes the efficacy, benefit and
medical necessity of gender transition treatments for appropriately evaluated individuals and
calls upon public and private insurers to cover these medically necessary treatments;

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 04:45:15 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2009, 10:59:00 AM »

I am not surprised at all by what the APA has said.  I actually welcome it!  Reparative therapy can be quite harmful.  Same-sex attraction is rarely ever chosen and its etiology is largely unknown.  If we don't have an etiology, how can we cure it?  When I was a Protestant, I knew several people that were in reparative therapy.  None of them are in it anymore.  One married a woman and then divorced her and entered a relationship with another man, a few lost complete faith in God and are probably living a sinful lifestyle (I can't say for sure), and two of them are celibate.  The toll that reparative therapy took on the spiritual health and mental health of these individuals is incalculable.   Luckily the Orthodox Church doesn't require a homosexual to become a heterosexual in order to receive the Mysteries.  The Orthodox Church requires same-sex attracted persons to live a chaste life.  And according to Orthodoxy, sexual acts cannot occur outside of a union between a man and a woman in the Sacrament of Matrimony.  Same-sex attracted individuals are called to chastity like everyone else, which for them means celibacy.  And just like everyone else, when they have a lustful thought or engage in a sinful behavior, they go to Confession and seek forgiveness and healing.  Just my two cents...

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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2009, 11:05:48 AM »

I am not surprised at all by what the APA has said.  I actually welcome it!  Reparative therapy can be quite harmful.  Same-sex attraction is rarely ever chosen and its etiology is largely unknown.  If we don't have an etiology, how can we cure it? 

How can we comment on it being rarely ever chosen then?

The problem with the APA is that they have taken the position that there is nothing to cure.

Quote
When I was a Protestant, I knew several people that were in reparative therapy.  None of them are in it anymore.  One married a woman and then divorced her and entered a relationship with another man, a few lost complete faith in God and are probably living a sinful lifestyle (I can't say for sure), and two of them are celibate.  The toll that reparative therapy took on the spiritual health and mental health of these individuals is incalculable.

Can't comment here.

Quote
   Luckily the Orthodox Church doesn't require a homosexual to become a heterosexual in order to receive the Mysteries.  The Orthodox Church requires same-sex attracted persons to live a chaste life.  And according to Orthodoxy, sexual acts cannot occur outside of a union between a man and a woman in the Sacrament of Matrimony.  Same-sex attracted individuals are called to chastity like everyone else, which for them means celibacy.  And just like everyone else, when they have a lustful thought or engage in a sinful behavior, they go to Confession and seek forgiveness and healing.  Just my two cents...

No disagreement here, except to point out the difficulty that the cross of same-sex attraction doesn't come with the gift of celibacy.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 11:06:37 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2009, 11:29:42 AM »

Forgive me, Iaimisry, but I don't know how to use the quotations. 

There are studies that suggest that homosexuality is a mixture of 'nature' and 'nurture'.  'Nurture' doesn't necessarily mean 'choice' either.  While there is nothing definitive, it is strongly suggested that there is no one single etiology, which would make the curing of homosexual attraction very difficult.  Also, based upon my discussions with Christians who have a primarily emotional and sexual attraction to members of the same-sex, I do believe them when they say that have not chosen to have these attractions.  I mean why would someone choose to be homosexual and then rush to reparative therapy.  If homosexuality is indeed chosen, reparative therapy is unnecessary. 

The APA doesn't believe there is anything to cure.  This shouldn't surprise you since it is a secular organization.  But besides that, I'm not sure what there is anything to cure either.  What is there to cure?  I have agreed that homosexual acts are incompatible with the Faith.  I just don't see what secular psychology has to offer someone that is suffering from a spiritual ailment.  Isn't that what our spiritual fathers are for?  Should we expect secular institutions to cure spiritual ailments?  Even if they tried, they couldn't.  Only God provides healing. 

You make an interesting point about the difficulty of the cross of same-sex attraction and the gift of celibacy.  I firmly believe that the Lord does not give people more than they can handle.  I believe that those with homosexual orientations can bear that Cross, while not having the gift of celibacy.  I'd say the same thing to a heterosexual man or woman who spent their lives looking for a spouse and never finding one. 

I believe that those with same-sex attraction carry a large cross and that is why I am quick to come to their defense.  A lot of homosexuals, especially in the Protestant environment I grew up in were told, "Become straight or you're not welcome here."  We see homosexuals becoming resentful and abandoning the Church and going and living lives outside the will of God because many attempt to become heterosexual and they cannot.  We really must support those who suffer with this great burden.  We shouldn't look down on them or think of them any differently than anyone else.  Since they cannot have their own families, we need to welcome them into ours and help them have a sense of community.  C'mon, we all have been to Orthodox parishes where there is that effeminate guy in Church and everyone looks at him like he is an exhibit from the zoo.  How horrible that must feel for those people.  How alienating and lonesome such an experience must be.  No, we should support them in their struggles-it's the Christian thing to do, IMHO. 

 
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2009, 03:16:20 PM »

Seth, please know that reparative therapy can be initiated by Christian therapists/psychologists.

If you are in a parish where there is discrimination of one group of sinners by another group of sinners, you should take loving action to stop it.  Perhaps a gentle and private conversation with those, who make others feel unwanted, would stop the nasty behavior. Immediately go stand, in the nave, beside those who are made to feel unwelcome.  Bring them a cup of coffee after Divine Liturgy and sit near them during coffee hour. Consider talking to the priest about this problem you witnessed. I have to wonder if the priests, in the parishes that you described, taught that everyone is “the first among sinners” and everyone needs to make continuous efforts to avoid sin.

If you are an individual that was made to feel unwelcome in a church, consider leaving the abusive one if you can locate a loving parish.  Please know that many of your Orthodox brothers and sisters do not think it is abusive to suggest/assist with methods and treatments to help others avoid sin. Here are two examples of helping others to avoid sin:  Offering to drive an admitted alcoholic to an AA meeting, to a physician appointment, or to a counseling session with a therapist.  If a sinner (that includes everyone) asks you for a ride to Vespers and confession and you comply. It is not unloving to try to help others avoid sin. 

The absence of any other replies to your post reminds me of the old rap song, “U Can’t Touch This”,  by MC Hammer.  If you do not receive other responses,  post your comment again at “a website dedicated to the study of Orthodox Christianity through its patristic, monastic and liturgical heritage with Revd Professor M.C. Steenberg, Webmaster.”

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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2009, 04:29:35 PM »

Hello Ms. Hoorah,

Thank you for your post and the concern you expressed.  However, I think you misunderstood part of what I was saying.  I wasn't speaking of my own parish or my priest.  As far as I can tell, everyone seems kind and welcoming towards everyone else. I was not speaking about myself.  I am a mental health therapist/social worker and I am somewhat of a 'bleeding heart'.  It is very important to me, as a Christian, to make sure that we as a Church don't alienate people, especially the ones that need our love and support the most.  I have worked with clients who have homosexual orientations and many of them have a deep hatred and distrust for the Church and when I hear their experiences in the Church, I can't really fault them for their deep mistrust and hurt.  Some have been treated terribly.  It is our job as Christians to share the Gospel with *all* people and that is done through our words and actions.  We shouldn't make crosses more difficult then they already are.  A homosexual can be a member in good standing in the Church, provide s/he remains celibate.  But adding the extra requirement to become heterosexual is ludicrous.  And promoting reparative therapy, which has been proven to be damaging and unhelpful, is not Christ-like, in my opinion.  There is a book out there by Fr. Thomas Hopko that deals with same-sex attraction and the Orthodox Church which I highly recommend.  I do believe that it provides a good Orthodox response to this hot button issue.  The Orthodox response is a truly liberating response.  So many homosexuals are living soul destroying lives.  I think most of them know this in their hearts.  They are not living God pleasing lives.  They need healing and that healing is only found in Christ's Holy Church.  The doors to the Divine Hospital must be open to all sinners!  Ah, God is good!  We Orthodox Christians are a blessed people - let's share that blessing with others!
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2009, 05:46:09 PM »

Forgive me for misinterpreting your post and trying to provide you with therapeutic assistance.  Since you a therapist, you are aware that there are many forms of reparative therapy and have been since the research of Freud and “company”.  Individuals who consent to one form of this therapy practice interventions with the patient over years which assist them in avoiding or eliminating behaviors/activities that lead them into same sex behaviors.  Successful outcomes in such a therapy program are not always defined as conversion to opposite sexual preference.  The successful outcome can be that the individual learns to practice celibacy and learns how to meet his/her emotional needs with non-sinful activities and non-sexual friendships.  This program is clearly a long term goal and requires a massive lifestyle change from the patient.  I have personally witnessed this accomplished by two individuals by God’s assistance, the individual’s unwavering faith, the prayers of their supportive family and friends, and long- term therapy.

I agree that there are many who have mistrust and pain related to any form of religion. These suffering individuals have collected injuries from multiple issues not only the issue of sexual attraction.  We must realize that we are all sinners and encourage each other on the path of salvation.

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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2009, 05:33:27 AM »

First of all, psychology is a pseudo science. Then when you add chemical drugs to the equation it can become a form of sorcery. No one should ever seek psychiatric help from secular sources.

The brain is a biological organ, and mental illnesses such as bipolar disorder need to be treated by medical professionals. Chemical inbalances need to be treated with pharmaceutical medications. But "psychology" should not have anything to do with this.

The problem I have with psychiatry is that it confuses emotional problems and chemical inbalances. We all have emotional difficulties, some more than others. But emotional difficulties are not automatically indicative of a biological problem in the brain. And emotional problems can never be treated with chemical drugs. They will only mask the problem. Only biolgical chemical inbalances in the organ of the brain need to be treated with chemical medication. 

Biological illnesses need to be treated with biological medical attention. But emotional problems can only be effectively dealt with from a proper spritual perspective.

The psychiatric community pretends to be able to address people's greatest needs while refusing to acknowledge the most important component of man- his soul. And this is ironic, because the word "psychiatry" is derived from the Greek word meaning "soul." In fact, secular psychiatry basically views religious devotion as a mental disorder. They'll tell you that a little religion is healthy, but don't allow it to dominate your life.

Now, I have respect for true Christian psychologists and psychiatrists who conduct their practice from an objective spiritual foundation. They are doing a lot of good and helping a lot of people. I myself have benefitted from their knowledge and assistance. But I strongly warn people not to ever deal with secular psychiatrists or psychologists. They will do you much more harm than good. And I speak from abundant experience. Believe me.

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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2009, 06:02:43 AM »

reparative therapy is now malpractice.
And it is malpractice.

I strongly warn people not to ever deal with secular psychiatrists or psychologists.
Hmmmmmm......
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2009, 06:09:31 AM »

I disagree with avoiding secular psychologists. OzGeorge's secular counseling to me was very helpful. Secular does not automatically translate to "Devil's Children" or something.
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2009, 06:11:30 AM »

I'd have to disagree, but I suppose I have more faith in the "secular world".  Tongue  I know a great deal of people who been able to turn their lives around (for the better) through secular psychiatrists and psychologists, some even with an increased love of their faith, whether it be Christian, Jewish, etc.  

Psychology is a soft science, therefore, due to its very nature, does not always follow the scientific method to a tee.  They are academics who look to better understand the human mind and its phenomenae, and in turn, often assist those who struggle with a variety of issues.  Now, medical doctors who focus on the mind and mental disorders are far from sorcerers.  Yet, mixing medical science with that of the mind can delve into realms those in other sciences don't deal with.

A qualified psychiatrist (whether secular or Christian) can differ between a mental illness and emotional problems, but sometimes there is a very fine line between them.  Many emotional problems can a sign of a much larger problem.  But if a such problem isn't an illness or imbalance, than it be dealt with in a variety of ways, whether it be secular or Christian counselling.

The origins of "psychiatric" mean "soul"/"mind", which makes sense, since in the past the conscious mind was often tied in with the soul.  Even the most God-doubting psychiatrist will understand the beliefs of his/her patient and will work within their framework, provided they are not bringing about severe psychosis.  Bad experiences with "secular" psychiatrists and good experiences with Christian ones are not overly fair outlooks.  I also believe discouraging people from attending psychiatric or psychological help based on the belief system of the helper is irresponsible.  On both side of the secular/religious fence you will find the qualified and the unqualified, the good and the bad, those who help and those who cause more problems.
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2009, 06:22:09 AM »

I have a lot to say on this issue of psychology as science, but I will not derail this thread which is about  "reparative therapy" (which I agree with the APA is malpractice).
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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2009, 06:32:01 AM »

"reparative therapy" (which I agree with the APA is malpractice).

Ditto.  The US is just catching up on what several other professional organisations and governing bodies have said in other countries.  It hardly comes as a surprise, especially since some organisations have used APA studies to determine their own positions.
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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2009, 07:29:21 AM »

I'd have to disagree, but I suppose I have more faith in the "secular world".  Tongue  I know a great deal of people who been able to turn their lives around (for the better) through secular psychiatrists and psychologists, some even with an increased love of their faith, whether it be Christian, Jewish, etc.  

Psychology is a soft science, therefore, due to its very nature, does not always follow the scientific method to a tee.  They are academics who look to better understand the human mind and its phenomenae, and in turn, often assist those who struggle with a variety of issues.  Now, medical doctors who focus on the mind and mental disorders are far from sorcerers.  Yet, mixing medical science with that of the mind can delve into realms those in other sciences don't deal with.

A qualified psychiatrist (whether secular or Christian) can differ between a mental illness and emotional problems, but sometimes there is a very fine line between them.  Many emotional problems can a sign of a much larger problem.  But if a such problem isn't an illness or imbalance, than it be dealt with in a variety of ways, whether it be secular or Christian counselling.

The origins of "psychiatric" mean "soul"/"mind", which makes sense, since in the past the conscious mind was often tied in with the soul.  Even the most God-doubting psychiatrist will understand the beliefs of his/her patient and will work within their framework, provided they are not bringing about severe psychosis.  Bad experiences with "secular" psychiatrists and good experiences with Christian ones are not overly fair outlooks.  I also believe discouraging people from attending psychiatric or psychological help based on the belief system of the helper is irresponsible.  On both side of the secular/religious fence you will find the qualified and the unqualified, the good and the bad, those who help and those who cause more problems.

I agree with much of what you say. It certainly presents a lot of problems when an ostensible science operates outside of the standards of the scientific method. I refered to it as psuedo-science; you call it "soft" science. Either way we both see some problems with it.

I urged caution, warning against secular psychiatry. That does not mean that every secular psychiatrist is an agent of satan. But why should a Christian seek a secular psychiatrist when there are many good Christian psychiatrists out there. Remember, we are dealing with the soul, not merely biology. A secular cardiologist, for example, is a different matter. But issues of emotion and the mind are inextricably wed to the spirit and the soul. And secular psychiatry is ill equipped to adequately deal with such matters. 

Selam
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2009, 07:47:22 AM »

I agree with much of what you say. It certainly presents a lot of problems when an ostensible science operates outside of the standards of the scientific method. I refered to it as psuedo-science; you call it "soft" science. Either way we both see some problems with it.

I urged caution, warning against secular psychiatry. That does not mean that every secular psychiatrist is an agent of satan. But why should a Christian seek a secular psychiatrist when there are many good Christian psychiatrists out there. Remember, we are dealing with the soul, not merely biology. A secular cardiologist, for example, is a different matter. But issues of emotion and the mind are inextricably wed to the spirit and the soul. And secular psychiatry is ill equipped to adequately deal with such matters. 

Selam

Firstly, you don't seem to know the difference between psychology and psychiatry, and secondly, you don't seem to understand that they both depend entirely on the scientific method which is precisely why reparative therapy (which does not use the scientific method) is malpractice and not evidence based. And thirdly you don't seem to know that "psyche" does not just mean "soul" it means "life" as well.
The sad case of the nun who was killed in Romania during an "exorcism" is an example of attempts by Orthodox Priests to treat what is actually mental illness: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107524.stm
She would have been better off being treated by atheist psychologists and psychiatrists.
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2009, 08:34:02 AM »

I agree with much of what you say. It certainly presents a lot of problems when an ostensible science operates outside of the standards of the scientific method. I refered to it as psuedo-science; you call it "soft" science. Either way we both see some problems with it.

I urged caution, warning against secular psychiatry. That does not mean that every secular psychiatrist is an agent of satan. But why should a Christian seek a secular psychiatrist when there are many good Christian psychiatrists out there. Remember, we are dealing with the soul, not merely biology. A secular cardiologist, for example, is a different matter. But issues of emotion and the mind are inextricably wed to the spirit and the soul. And secular psychiatry is ill equipped to adequately deal with such matters. 

Selam

Firstly, you don't seem to know the difference between psychology and psychiatry, and secondly, you don't seem to understand that they both depend entirely on the scientific method which is precisely why reparative therapy (which does not use the scientific method) is malpractice and not evidence based. And thirdly you don't seem to know that "psyche" does not just mean "soul" it means "life" as well.
The sad case of the nun who was killed in Romania during an "exorcism" is an example of attempts by Orthodox Priests to treat what is actually mental illness: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107524.stm
She would have been better off being treated by atheist psychologists and psychiatrists.

A. I do know the difference between psychology and psychiatry.

B. The psychiatric community claims the scientific method when it's convenient, and ignores it when it's not convenient. Your case about homosexuality actually proves what I am arguing here. Strict adherence to the scientific method does not prove the theory that some people are born "gay."

C. I do recognize the various meanings of the word "psyche," and the primary historical meaning is "soul."

I don't mean to hurt your feelings if you are a psychologist. You may be a very good one, and I hope that you help a lot of people.

I always wonder how these secular psychologists would have psycho analyzed the prophets. John the Baptist was probably just bipolar. If only they had Ritilin back in those days! He probably wouldn't have "lost his head."  Cheesy

Selm
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2009, 08:35:39 AM »

I am a clinical psychologist who is Orthodox and I was at the APA Convention.There is nothing in that decision by the APA which would endanger any qualified professional therapist.
I have made it my decision to never discuss professional issues on these forums particularly with lay people who have little if any scientific training. "Lay people" in this regard also includes clergy. The discussion usually becomes ugly and very unchristian and is not beneficial to my immortal soul. Prejudice and fear are not scientific.
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2009, 08:40:32 AM »

I am a clinical psychologist who is Orthodox and I was at the APA Convention.There is nothing in that decision by the APA which would endanger any qualified professional therapist.
I have made it my decision to never discuss professional issues on these forums particularly with lay people who have little if any scientific training. "Lay people" in this regard also includes clergy. The discussion usually becomes ugly and very unchristian and is not beneficial to my immortal soul. Prejudice and fear are not scientific.

I agree with you 100%; prejudice and fear are not scientific. So I find your prejudice towards lay people and your fear of the clergy very intriguing. Not that I'm trying to psychoanalyze you. Wink

Selam
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« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2009, 09:15:38 AM »

Selam...It has nothing to do with fear or prejudice..it has to do with training and education...would you want a botanist to design a super collider or a dam?
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« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2009, 09:15:55 AM »

A. I do know the difference between psychology and psychiatry.
Which is.....?

B. The psychiatric community claims the scientific method when it's convenient, and ignores it when it's not convenient.
And Orthodox Deacons have preached heresy, doesn't make Orthodoxy heresy.

Your case about homosexuality actually proves what I am arguing here.
What case about homosexuality?

Strict adherence to the scientific method does not prove the theory that some people are born "gay."
Isn't the study of whether people are born gay be the realm of geneticists?
 
C. I do recognize the various meanings of the word "psyche," and the primary historical meaning is "soul."
Well thats a strange thing for a Deacon to say considering the biblical use of the word psyche to mean "life"- but I'm sure you know all about that.

I don't mean to hurt your feelings if you are a psychologist. You may be a very good one, and I hope that you help a lot of people.
You haven't hurt my feelings, and this is not about me, it's about your misunderstanding and ignorance about the Behavioural Sciences.

I always wonder how these secular psychologists would have psycho analyzed the prophets. John the Baptist was probably just bipolar. If only they had Ritilin back in those days! He probably wouldn't have "lost his head." 
Why would they need to assess a prophet? Why would Ritalin be used to treat Bipolar Affective Disorder?

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« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2009, 09:20:56 AM »

Ritalin is contraindicated in Bipolar Disorder..it could trigger a Manic episode...statements like that are the exact reason why laypeople which includes clergy with no scientific training should not discuss psychology or psychiatry.
I am not addressing this subject anymore as it is,as usual when one discusses this subject deteriorating.
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« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2009, 09:22:15 AM »

Ritalin is contraindicated in Bipolar Disorder..it could trigger a Manic episode...statements like that are the exact reason why laypeople should not discuss psychology or psychiatry.
I am not addressing this subject anymore as it is,as ussual when one discusses this subject deteriorating.
I agree. I think I've said my piece too.
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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2009, 09:31:04 AM »

A. I do know the difference between psychology and psychiatry.
Which is.....?

B. The psychiatric community claims the scientific method when it's convenient, and ignores it when it's not convenient.
And Orthodox Deacons have preached heresy, doesn't make Orthodoxy heresy.

Your case about homosexuality actually proves what I am arguing here.
What case about homosexuality?

Strict adherence to the scientific method does not prove the theory that some people are born "gay."
Isn't the study of whether people are born gay be the realm of geneticists?
 
C. I do recognize the various meanings of the word "psyche," and the primary historical meaning is "soul."
Well thats a strange thing for a Deacon to say considering the biblical use of the word psyche to mean "life"- but I'm sure you know all about that.

I don't mean to hurt your feelings if you are a psychologist. You may be a very good one, and I hope that you help a lot of people.
You haven't hurt my feelings, and this is not about me, it's about your misunderstanding and ignorance about the Behavioural Sciences.

I always wonder how these secular psychologists would have psycho analyzed the prophets. John the Baptist was probably just bipolar. If only they had Ritilin back in those days! He probably wouldn't have "lost his head." 
Why would they need to assess a prophet? Why would Ritalin be used to treat Bipolar Affective Disorder?



First, I am not a Deacon. I am not nearly worthy of that ordination.

Psychologists cannot prescribe medicine, and are not required to have a Phd in medicine. Am I correct?

Psychologists and Psychiatrists assess prophets all the time, but these prophets are considered mentally ill. I know that Psychologists and Psychiatrists are always worried about anyone who seems "fanatical" in their eyes. Religious devotion seems to raise a red flag in their minds.

As I said earlier, life and soul are inextricably linked. You cannot adequatley deal with matters of life if you ignore matters of the soul.

I guess John the Baptist would have needed Serequel, and maybe some Paxil. But since Psychiatrists are so quick to prescribe Ritalin, I just figured they'd put St. John the Baptist on it just to try to calm him down.

BTW, hasn't the consensus on the effects and uses of Ritalin been steadily changing over the years? Is that correct? I'm interested to know. Thanks.

Selam
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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2009, 09:35:09 AM »

Ritalin is contraindicated in Bipolar Disorder..it could trigger a Manic episode...statements like that are the exact reason why laypeople which includes clergy with no scientific training should not discuss psychology or psychiatry.
I am not addressing this subject anymore as it is,as usual when one discusses this subject deteriorating.

It's ironic, because you guys are the ones prescribing the drugs, not me! And as I indicated above I was being sarcastic, not attempting to make a serious medical diagnosis. With repsect, Get over yourselves. Roll Eyes

Selam
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« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2009, 09:36:22 AM »

Paxil is also contraindicated for Bipolar Disorder..Ritalin is rarely used anymore...my case is exibited again..as I have said..I am done here and in some States psychologists can prescribe medications if supervised by a psychiatrist..I ,however, am done here.This discussion is not profitable. I am very proud to be a member of the American Psychological Association and a member of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2009, 09:49:23 AM »

Paxil is also contraindicated for Bipolar Disorder..Ritalin is rarely used anymore...my case is exibited again..as I have said..I am done here and in some States psychologists can prescribe medications if supervised by a psychiatrist..I ,however, am done here.This discussion is not profitable. I am very proud to be a member of the American Psychological Association and a member of the Orthodox Church.

Is there a psychological term for narrow-mindedness? Is it called "myopia?"

What about fear of opposing points of view? Is that a form of "paranoia?"

What about concern only for that which is profitable to one's self? Would that fall under "narcissism?"

I mean, this discussion has been very profitable to me. I am learning a lot and would enjoy learning more. But hey, if the session is over then the session is over. I'm just glad I didn't fork out 150$ an hour for it!

By the way, if a patient disagrees with you do you terminate his "therapy," prescribe more drugs, or lock him up in the psyche ward? Just curious.

Selam
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« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2009, 09:54:19 AM »

Is there a psychological term for narrow-mindedness? Is it called "myopia?"
No such diagnosis.

What about fear of opposing points of view? Is that a form of "paranoia?"
Wrong again.

What about concern only for that which is profitable to one's self? Would that fall under "narcissism?"
Nope again.

I mean, this discussion has been very profitable to me. I am learning a lot and would enjoy learning more. But hey, if the session is over then the session is over. I'm just glad I didn't fork out 150$ an hour for it!
No one is stopping you from discussing this topic. But if you want a session you need to book an appointment.

By the way, if a patient disagrees with you do you terminate his "therapy," prescribe more drugs, or lock him up in the psyche ward? Just curious.
Are you a patient? You see, real therapy cannot be done online- only Orthodoxy and politics can apparently.
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« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2009, 09:58:56 AM »

Is there a psychological term for narrow-mindedness? Is it called "myopia?"
No such diagnosis.

What about fear of opposing points of view? Is that a form of "paranoia?"
Wrong again.

What about concern only for that which is profitable to one's self? Would that fall under "narcissism?"
Nope again.

I mean, this discussion has been very profitable to me. I am learning a lot and would enjoy learning more. But hey, if the session is over then the session is over. I'm just glad I didn't fork out 150$ an hour for it!
No one is stopping you from discussing this topic. But if you want a session you need to book an appointment.

By the way, if a patient disagrees with you do you terminate his "therapy," prescribe more drugs, or lock him up in the psyche ward? Just curious.
Are you a patient? You see, real therapy cannot be done online- only Orthodoxy and politics can apparently.

So you are continuing the discussion?

Selam
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« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2009, 10:21:24 AM »

  C'mon, we all have been to Orthodox parishes where there is that effeminate guy in Church and everyone looks at him like he is an exhibit from the zoo.  How horrible that must feel for those people.  How alienating and lonesome such an experience must be.  No, we should support them in their struggles-it's the Christian thing to do, IMHO. 

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

So I guess what I am asking is this. Just for the sake of argument, let's concede that a homosexual individual is born gay and is striving to live a chaste Christian life. Of course we should love and encourage him, just as we desire to be loved and encouraged by others as we struggle against sin in our own lives. But shouldn't we encourage that individual to not act in an effeminate manner? Shouldn't he dress, speak, and carry himself like a man? Even if it is an act for him to do so, should he not at least act? By at least acting in a non-effeminate manner, he is perhaps keeping others homosexual men from lusting after him. And of course, my same question applies to both genders. I am sure that there are many homosexuals who are striving to live a Christian life and work hard to control their effeminate body language. I think this is not to much to ask for those homosexuals who want to receive the sacraments.

I'm not being judgmental, just sincerely asking what I believe is a legitimate question.

Thank you.

Selam   

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« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2009, 12:00:35 PM »

I am a clinical psychologist who is Orthodox and I was at the APA Convention.There is nothing in that decision by the APA which would endanger any qualified professional therapist.
I have made it my decision to never discuss professional issues on these forums particularly with lay people who have little if any scientific training. "Lay people" in this regard also includes clergy. The discussion usually becomes ugly and very unchristian and is not beneficial to my immortal soul. Prejudice and fear are not scientific.

Here is the danger:

The APA declared reparative therapy non-therapeutic to alter the behavior of medical/mental health clinicians.  In health care, the word non-therapeutic can mean harmful.  Therefore,  any counseling approaching reparative therapy or supporting changes in homosexuals’ behaviors may also be seen as harmful to a medical malpractice attorney. The APA’s declaration placed many aspects of counseling for homosexuals on the long list of “things you can sue health care providers for”.  It will take years of malpractice suits to determine exactly how close counseling sessions can get to “the declared non-therapeutic treatment” without risk of legal action.


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« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2009, 12:17:15 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 
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« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2009, 12:26:23 PM »

I am a clinical psychologist who is Orthodox and I was at the APA Convention.There is nothing in that decision by the APA which would endanger any qualified professional therapist.
I have made it my decision to never discuss professional issues on these forums particularly with lay people who have little if any scientific training. "Lay people" in this regard also includes clergy. The discussion usually becomes ugly and very unchristian and is not beneficial to my immortal soul. Prejudice and fear are not scientific.

Here is the danger:

The APA declared reparative therapy non-therapeutic to alter the behavior of medical/mental health clinicians.  In health care, the word non-therapeutic can mean harmful.  Therefore,  any counseling approaching reparative therapy or supporting changes in homosexuals’ behaviors may also be seen as harmful to a medical malpractice attorney. The APA’s declaration placed many aspects of counseling for homosexuals on the long list of “things you can sue health care providers for”.  It will take years of malpractice suits to determine exactly how close counseling sessions can get to “the declared non-therapeutic treatment” without risk of legal action.




Yes, lay people doesn't include lawyers. Why does it include clergy?
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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2009, 12:32:13 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 

The term means "catamaite," i.e. the passive partner in sodomy, the term following designates the active partner.

Eunuchs are effeminate, but we know that they are not barred from the Kingdom of Heaven.
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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2009, 12:33:22 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 

The term means "catamaite," i.e. the passive partner in sodomy, the term following designates the active partner.

Eunuchs are effeminate, but we know that they are not barred from the Kingdom of Heaven.

Excellent point and thank you for the linguistic demarcation Smiley  I did not know that before.
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« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2009, 01:30:13 PM »

My parish has been very blessed to have never had any need to know the following information. Would someone please explain “clergy malpractice”.  Our clergy may also be in danger of committing malpractice with the APA’s announcement.

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« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2009, 01:34:04 PM »

My parish has been very blessed to have never had any need to know the following information. Would someone please explain “clergy malpractice”.  Our clergy may also be in danger of committing malpractice with the APA’s announcement.

What clergy do in different churches is up to them and their churches. But they cannot pretend to be psychotherapists or claim to be using evidence based psychotherapeutic techniques when they are not.
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« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2009, 01:55:55 PM »

My parish has been very blessed to have never had any need to know the following information. Would someone please explain “clergy malpractice”.  Our clergy may also be in danger of committing malpractice with the APA’s announcement.

What clergy do in different churches is up to them and their churches. But they cannot pretend to be psychotherapists or claim to be using evidence based psychotherapeutic techniques when they are not.

....because only lawyers and judges can do that.
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« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2009, 01:56:19 PM »

The term means "catamaite," i.e. the passive partner in sodomy, the term following designates the active partner.

That's certainly a theory advanced by some recently (e.g. NAB), but what's the evidence, do you know?

μαλακοὶ, often translated as "effeminate", usually just means "soft, mild, gentle, etc", and is sometimes used in a metaphorical sense to mean a softy, i.e. one with a soft/pliable/weak will. That's how Plato and Aristotle used it once or twice. That said, it really doesn't appear in the corpus of Greek literature often, so it's kind of hard to know exactly what St. Paul meant.

The other word, ἀρσενοκοῖται, is basically a hapax legomenon (seems to happen more often in St. Paul than in many other writers). Of course, it looks pretty much like a simple, made-up compound: "Male-bedifier."
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« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2009, 02:01:19 PM »

My parish has been very blessed to have never had any need to know the following information. Would someone please explain “clergy malpractice”.  Our clergy may also be in danger of committing malpractice with the APA’s announcement.


Found that clergy malpractice appears to far more complex that medical malpractice due to constitutional
rights.  You can read more about how the APA’s statement might legally affect your priest here:

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1291&context=lawrev

Regardless of how the term is applied, clergy malpractice implies
that there is a standard of care within the ministry to which a
clergyperson must adhere. A standard for clergy counselors infers that anyone within a
particular religion or denomination could counsel under that
standard.

 Constitutional Considerations
1. The First Amendment
The first amendment to the United States Constitution pro-
vides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establish-
ment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . .."53
The fourteenth amendment makes the first amendment guaran-
tees applicable to the states.6

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« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2009, 02:06:24 PM »

My parish has been very blessed to have never had any need to know the following information. Would someone please explain “clergy malpractice”.  Our clergy may also be in danger of committing malpractice with the APA’s announcement.


Found that clergy malpractice appears to far more complex that medical malpractice due to constitutional
rights.  You can read more about how the APA’s statement might legally affect your priest here:

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1291&context=lawrev

Regardless of how the term is applied, clergy malpractice implies
that there is a standard of care within the ministry to which a
clergyperson must adhere. A standard for clergy counselors infers that anyone within a
particular religion or denomination could counsel under that
standard.

 Constitutional Considerations
1. The First Amendment
The first amendment to the United States Constitution pro-
vides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establish-
ment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . .."53
The fourteenth amendment makes the first amendment guaran-
tees applicable to the states.6



Does the first amendment mean that clergy can sexually abuse their parishioners in Confession without fear of legal ramifications in the US?
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« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2009, 02:23:01 PM »

The term "Lay people" used here would include anyone who is not a psychologist/psychiatrist and that would include lawyers and clergy.
The unfortunate thing about this thread and this usually happens when discussing homosexuality is that it become relatively banal and filled with contempt.
The declaration by the APA which I voted for states that "change therapies" are inappropriate. It does not stop a therapist from helping a gay person become chaste or live a chaste life. This is supposed to be the case of all unmarried persons both gay and straight according to the Church although we all know how well that works.How many couples get married in the Church who have had premarital sex which is also against Church teaching.Chastity also supposed to be the case for monastics but we all know what was going on in the OCA.
The Kinsey Institute at Indiana University in Bloomington,Indiana has a prize for $50,000. for a person who can pass their criteria for being a heterosexual who was once homosexual.The money has never been awarded.Sexual preference has a lot more to do with what goes on between the ears and very little with the genitalia.St.Paul lacked this important insight yet his standard does set the tone for Church teaching and the Canons.There are people who would disagree with St.Paul such as Peter Gomes of Harvard University,,author of the The Good Book,,Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart but he is hardly Orthodox. I know of no authors who are Orthodox who have disagreed with this interpretation of the Pauline writings yet every Orthodox { there aren't a lot of us}psychologist who was at the APA Convention that I spoke to agreed with the resolution.In fact one psychologist who is also a priest said that the resolution should read "Reparative Therapy is dangerous to Christians" Most of the Reparative Therapy is done by evangelicals or mormons who hold little cotton with us Orthodox. I have had former evangelicals who converted to Orthodoxy discuss this with me and I see it as an artifact of their former life before Orthodoxy. I am relatively elderly and I have never heard a sermon about homosexuality in an Orthodox Church. I guess this is because sermons are usually about the Gospel. A protestant friend of mine complains that gays is all his pastor talks about and this is one reason why he is exploring Orthodoxy although I have informed him of the official Church teaching.He states that we are not "obsessed" with the issue but appear to want to live out our salvation.
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« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2009, 02:55:19 PM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...two milenia of living Tradition. And some people want to throw it all out to embrace a "therapy" born in heterodox cults which even the Founder of Exodus International not only admits is a failure, but was a failure in his own case! ( http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/busseeapology )
I wrote the following post over two years ago now, and I still stand by it:

I confess that this is a subject that I don't know yet *how* to deal with.
I think that's the first and most important step towards understanding how to deal with anything.
The next step, I think, is trying to make a connection with something in my own experience. For example, I know what it's like to crave a cigarette even though I know that smoking them does me damage. But no amount of public health warnings was ever able to stop me smoking. I even worked in palliative care with people dying of lung cancer and emphysema, and even that didn't stop me smoking. My Mother (God rest her) called it "the incense of the devil" and my Father (God rest him) once got me to take a $10 note out of my wallet and burned it in front of me saying "It would be better if you burned your money this way!"- and even that didn't stop me!
After a period of some years with my current Confessor, and having dealt with some more pressing spiritual matters, he got me to start looking at my nicotine addiction, not as something to be eliminated, but rather, as an opportunity for spiritual growth. Rather than listing all the reasons why I shouldn't smoke (which I knew anyway), he got me to start looking at the possibility of learning live with nicotine craving, and using it as a way of coming closer to God. As St. Anthony the Great says: "Whoever has not experienced temptation cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Without temptations no-one can be saved.'
If we think of smoking as sinful and morally wrong, then nicotine craving is the passion and is morally neutral. This is the Orthodox understanding of the difference between "passion" and "sin".
Similarly, homosexual orientation is the passion (and therefore morally neutral) while homosexual acts are the sin, and morally wrong. As a psychologist, I think that this Orthodox view offers the only way out of what is termed "Ego-Dystonic Homosexuality". In the Diagnostic Manual we use to  diagnose mental illness, homosexuality is not a mental disorder unless the homosexual themselves considers it to be disorder, that is, their homosexuality is dystonic to their own self identity. Now, among some Protestant and Catholic groups, the current "treatment" for ego-dystonic homosexuality such as "Courage International" and "Exodus International" is "reparative therapy", that is "reorienting" the sexual attraction. The problem with this is it just doesn't work. I personally know of two members of "Exodus International" who have committed suicide (one after having entered a hetrosexual marriage as part of his "reorientation"). It's boloney. It would be like myself trying to give up smoking by pretending that my very powerful cravings for cigarettes don't exist. Let me tell you, they darn well do exist!
With it's keen understanding of how the passions work and how to manage them, Orthodoxy offers a way out of homosexual behaviour while not attempting to deny the existence of homosexual orientation. It offers another option- yes, a difficult one, but an option nonetheless, and that is the martyric path of chastity. And St. John Climakos in "The Ladder of Divine Assent" makes this keen observation in Step 15:24:
"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For, with nature on his side, he has the best of the argument."
Orthodoxy acknowledges that, in demanding that the People of God avoid fornication (whether heterosexually or homosexually) she is demanding something which goes against nature. In other words, she acknowledges that yes, the desire is there, but that we are not to act on it. This is a big ask, and St. John Climacus acknowledges this when he says in Step 15:7:
"Let no one thoroughly trained in purity attribute its attainment to himself. For it is impossible for anyone to conquer his own nature. When nature is defeated, it should be recognised that this is due to the presence of Him Who is above nature. For beyond all dispute, the weaker gives way to the Stronger."
So, rather than continually rattle off the same stuff about "homosexual agendas" and "homosexual sin" that occur on every Christian forum, why don't we offer on an Orthodox forum the unique perspective that yes, homosexual orientation exists, just as the desire to fornicate or be an adulterer exists, and these are "natural", but even this does not mean that acting on these "natural desires" is morally neutral. And even more importantly, we can offer the uniquely Orthodox understanding of the difference between passion and sin which may offer homosexuals a way out of having to act on their desires, while at the same time not attempting to deny that their desires exist.
But if the only thing we have to offer is the same old hackneyed thing that one sees on every Christian forum such as "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" then what's the point? No one's gonna listen, it's the same rubbish they get everywhere.
We cannot tell people outside the Church how to live their sexual lives. And with nature on their side (as St. John Clmacus points out) they'd laugh us to scorn. All we can do is bear witness to another way, and offer it as an alternative.
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« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2009, 03:02:35 PM »

Excellent, kind, and thoughtful post, OzGeorge, even if it's two years old!
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« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2009, 03:11:34 PM »

The term "Lay people" used here would include anyone who is not a psychologist/psychiatrist and that would include lawyers

not under the law it doesn't.

Quote
and clergy.

Not when it comes to morality.  or the true nature of things.

Quote
The unfortunate thing about this thread and this usually happens when discussing homosexuality is that it become relatively banal and filled with contempt.
The declaration by the APA which I voted for states that "change therapies" are inappropriate. It does not stop a therapist from helping a gay person become chaste or live a chaste life. This is supposed to be the case of all unmarried persons both gay and straight according to the Church although we all know how well that works.How many couples get married in the Church who have had premarital sex which is also against Church teaching.Chastity also supposed to be the case for monastics but we all know what was going on in the OCA.

Why do you single out the OCA?

Quote
The Kinsey Institute at Indiana University in Bloomington,Indiana has a prize for $50,000. for a person who can pass their criteria for being a heterosexual who was once homosexual.

Given its namesake, did they ever have a prize for a person who could pass their criteria for being sexually disordered?


Quote
The money has never been awarded.Sexual preference has a lot more to do with what goes on between the ears and very little with the genitalia. /

Parts is parts.

Quote
St.Paul lacked this important insight yet his standard does set the tone for Church teaching and the Canons.There are people who would disagree with St.Paul such as Peter Gomes of Harvard University,,author of the The Good Book,,Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart but he is hardly Orthodox. I know of no authors who are Orthodox who have disagreed with this interpretation of the Pauline writings yet every Orthodox { there aren't a lot of us}psychologist who was at the APA Convention that I spoke to agreed with the resolution.  In fact one psychologist who is also a priest said that the resolution should read "Reparative Therapy is dangerous to Christians" Most of the Reparative Therapy is done by evangelicals or mormons who hold little cotton with us Orthodox. I have had former evangelicals who converted to Orthodoxy discuss this with me and I see it as an artifact of their former life before Orthodoxy. I am relatively elderly and I have never heard a sermon about homosexuality in an Orthodox Church. I guess this is because sermons are usually about the Gospel. A protestant friend of mine complains that gays is all his pastor talks about and this is one reason why he is exploring Orthodoxy although I have informed him of the official Church teaching.  He states that we are not "obsessed" with the issue but appear to want to live out our salvation.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 03:11:57 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2009, 03:17:09 PM »

Yes indeed OzGeorge,,Welcome back...see all the fun you have been missing? Welcome back to the House of Mirth!
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« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2009, 03:29:33 PM »

Yes indeed OzGeorge,,Welcome back...
Thanks!

see all the fun you have been missing? Welcome back to the House of Mirth!
Oh boy! Do I ever!
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« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2009, 03:29:45 PM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...two milenia of living Tradition. And some people want to throw it all out to embrace a "therapy" born in heterodox cults which even the Founder of Exodus International not only admits is a failure, but was a failure in his own case! ( http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/busseeapology )
I wrote the following post over two years ago now, and I still stand by it:

[/quote]

There is no one on this thread, so far, that supports a magical, six month therapy program to change homosexuals’ sexual orientation.  You guys are going off on a tangent.  

My problem with the APA’s statement is that it did not specifically discuss **interventions** that they deemed were “non-therapeutic” and therefore, medical malpractice.  Perhaps they would like everyone to believe that all counseling which might change aspects in homosexuals is also non-therapeutic.  If you are truly in counseling profession, you clearly know that there are many distinct problems that are curable/treatable in this population. ( I’m not going to make a laundry list here and I don’t need anymore continuing education credits, so spare me.)  Because they chose not to address this and broadly discussed reparative therapy, many counselors (psychiatrist/psychologists/PAs/nurse practioners/clergy/social workers) are going to be held to a standard with floating or zero boundaries.  This places mental health professionals at an increased risk of liability and will eventually affect the counseling and/or access to counseling that homosexuals receive.  


« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 03:45:13 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2009, 03:44:21 PM »

 You guys are going off on a tangent.  
Really? I thought the title of this thread is about so-called reparative therapy- which is precisely what we are talking about.

My problem with the APA’s statement is that it did not specifically discuss **interventions** that they deemed were “non-therapeutic” and therefore, medical malpractice.
Yes they did specify which interventions are non-therapeutic: reparative therapy.

Perhaps they would like everyone to believe that all counseling which might change aspects in homosexuals is also non-therapeutic.
This is mere conjecture.

many counselors (psychiatrist/psychologists/PAs/nurse practioners/clergy/social workers) are going to be held to a standard with floating or zero boundaries.  
No. They will be held accountable and the standards and boundaries are clear-> Evidence-based Practice.

This places mental health professionals at an increased risk of liability (
Mental Health Professionals have a duty of care, and that duty of care requires best practice and evidence-based practice. Don't thier clients and patients deserve that?

and will eventually affect the counseling and/or access to counseling that homosexuals receive.  
Yes, it will affect counselling of homosexuals, by improving it, removing the cowboys, keeping them safe from "therapies" that don't work and do more harm and no good.
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« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2009, 03:48:28 PM »

There are many forms of "reparative therapy" and not all define their objective as changing the patient's sexual preference.

George.... What time is it in Australia?  I am worried about your decreased need for sleep. 

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« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2009, 04:05:49 PM »

COURAGE is one example of reparative therapy program with the objective of celibacy and not sexual preference change (or at least they were months ago).

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« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2009, 04:13:56 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 

I have to disagree with you a little bit my friend. I do agree that the issue is primarily between the effeminate individual and his spiritual father; but if our brother's unChristian actions are causing offense to others in the Church, then we have a Christian duty to encourage them to change their behavior. Perhaps I shouldn't have included the Scaraments in my initial question, since the laity cannot decide such things. But if we all agree that those who are struggling with sin need our support and encouragement, then shouldn't that support and encouragement also include strong admonition and loving rebuke?  

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« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2009, 04:16:16 PM »

Basically, I agree that secular psychology and psychiatry(Freud thought himself as a psychiatrist not "psychologist", btw)  is at best a philosophy, and people like professor of Psychiatry Th. Szasz(only referring to the most famous) would say a religion. For example, there never were -and have never been proven through objective tests- any biochemical imbalances that cause "mental illness", and the brain is not known to us, the science of neurology has not gone so far yet and probably will never go. Thus, I think it's only natural for them to think that there are positive elements in "homosexuality" and that trying to change a person -provided that he himself is willing to!- of this orientation is not "legitimate". Of course, homosexuality was considered a "mental illness" some decades ago and after a certain voting which took place, it was removed(!). This is natural and expected, when you deal with things that can be so subjective, cannot be measured and are of a moral(as St. Nektarios said), behavioural nature which the Medical Profession has nothing to do with.

I hope that someday everybody, at least inside the church, will understand that the answers to such questions do not come from the outside knowledge, but from the Patristic one, from the knowledge of the Uncreated. And this is why the basis for the apophatic anthropology of Orthodoxy is not some modern day professional, but Gregory of Nyssa and his work upon the construction of man. I know this is a large topic, of course ...  Wink I hope it's not too late for some people -which happens sometimes to the Christian homeopathetic professionals. Smiley

 

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« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2009, 04:30:14 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 

I have to disagree with you a little bit my friend. I do agree that the issue is primarily between the effeminate individual and his spiritual father; but if our brother's unChristian actions are causing offense to others in the Church, then we have a Christian duty to encourage them to change their behavior. Perhaps I shouldn't have included the Scaraments in my initial question, since the laity cannot decide such things. But if we all agree that those who are struggling with sin need our support and encouragement, then shouldn't that support and encouragement also include strong admonition and loving rebuke?  

Selam

This bolded portion is what I was getting at in my disagreement and I'm glad to see we may be on the same page here.    Smiley

But I do think that there are things that we would not bat an eyelash at that St. Paul would possibly consider "effeminate".  And what constitutes the line between "effeminanity" and "masculinity".  Is a man who has a deep voice is well built/strong but who would otherwise rather be sewing and tending a flower garden more or less effeminate than a waiflike man with a soft voice (possibly with a lisp) who is an automotive mechanic and a war veteran?  I personally know examples of both types of men.
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« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2009, 04:36:51 PM »

There are many forms of "reparative therapy" and not all define their objective as changing the patient's sexual preference.
What examples of Reparative (or "Conversion") therapy are there which do not seek to change the client's sexual preference? Could you name some? Because your claim contradicts the commonly understood definition of Reparative Therapy. What is being repaired if not the person's sexual preference? Their moral values? Is that really the role of psychotherapy, or is that more the role of an Evangelist?

George.... What time is it in Australia?  I am worried about your decreased need for sleep. 
Don't worry, it's just the manic phase. Cheesy
I'm actually at work (night duty). Helping to prevent suicides. And two of them in the past have been survivors of "Reparative Therapy". Kind of cleaning up the mess you guys leave in your wake.
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« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2009, 04:48:38 PM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...
Which translation of The Ladder would you recommend?
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« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2009, 04:58:07 PM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...
Which translation of The Ladder would you recommend?
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« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2009, 05:22:29 PM »

I have a serious question, and I hope others can offer their sincere opinions.

First, I absolutely agree that we should support all of our brothers and sisters in their struggles, whatever those struggles may be. But my question is in regard to the word "effeminate." Should a chaste homosexual man who is outwardly effeminate be allowed to receive the Sacraments? I ask this, because St. Paul writes  that the effeminate shall not enter heaven. [I Corinthians 6:9] And the "effminate" are differentiated from "homosexuals" in this passage.

This is between the so-called "effeminate" man and his spiritual father, period.  No one else, most especially laity, has any say in the matter.

I also imagine that things in St. Paul's time that were considered "effeminate" might not be so today and vice versa. 

I have to disagree with you a little bit my friend. I do agree that the issue is primarily between the effeminate individual and his spiritual father; but if our brother's unChristian actions are causing offense to others in the Church, then we have a Christian duty to encourage them to change their behavior. Perhaps I shouldn't have included the Scaraments in my initial question, since the laity cannot decide such things. But if we all agree that those who are struggling with sin need our support and encouragement, then shouldn't that support and encouragement also include strong admonition and loving rebuke?  

Selam

This bolded portion is what I was getting at in my disagreement and I'm glad to see we may be on the same page here.    Smiley

But I do think that there are things that we would not bat an eyelash at that St. Paul would possibly consider "effeminate".  And what constitutes the line between "effeminanity" and "masculinity".  Is a man who has a deep voice is well built/strong but who would otherwise rather be sewing and tending a flower garden more or less effeminate than a waiflike man with a soft voice (possibly with a lisp) who is an automotive mechanic and a war veteran?  I personally know examples of both types of men.

Yeah, I think you're right. Maybe it's like the Supreme Court Justice who couldn't define pornography but said he knew it when he saw it.

Personally I would never confront anyone about their effeminate mannerisms. I have had some good Christian friends who exhibited effeminate traits, but they also exhibited a sincere devotion to God. One was a friend of mine back in Bible College who one day confided in me that he struggled with homosexual feelings. He said he had never acted on them, but that he would sometimes drive by gay bars and feel very tempted. I don't know why he chose to tell me these things, but I told him I was his friend and brother regardless. I told him to come and talk to me if he ever felt tempted by such things. A few years later I saw him and he introduced me to his new bride. And he seemed genuinely happy.

Another friend I had who was a strong Christian later told me he was openly gay and living in sin. I told him that I still loved him and would always be his friend. I also told him that he knew that the life he was living was sinful, and as his friend I would never tell him otherwise. He is still my friend, and he is still living in sin.

So I'm with you basically. These matters are dificult. In spite of my strong opinions and uncompromising stance on certain matters, I wish people would know that I try my best to treat people with love and compassion. For whatever reason, I still find that many people come to me confessing their personal struggles and asking me for advice. I dont' know why. But I always do my best to show them compassion even if I have to tell them some hard truths. I try to treat them like I'd want to be treated if I were in their shoes.

Selam
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« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2009, 07:03:47 PM »

There are many forms of "reparative therapy" and not all define their objective as changing the patient's sexual preference.
What examples of Reparative (or "Conversion") therapy are there which do not seek to change the client's sexual preference? Could you name some? Because your claim contradicts the commonly understood definition of Reparative Therapy. What is being repaired if not the person's sexual preference? Their moral values? Is that really the role of psychotherapy, or is that more the role of an Evangelist?

George.... What time is it in Australia?  I am worried about your decreased need for sleep. 
Don't worry, it's just the manic phase. Cheesy
I'm actually at work (night duty). Helping to prevent suicides. And two of them in the past have been survivors of "Reparative Therapy". Kind of cleaning up the mess you guys leave in your wake.


The APA previously defined reparative therapy as any attempt aimed at eliminating or suppressing homosexuality.   This is a definition which could included many types of interventions to help homosexuals practice celibacy.  These are now labeled as non-therapeutic and therefore they could be considered malpractice.

I gave you an example of a reparative therapy program called COURAGE.  It is sponsored by the Catholic Church. 

I also work many individuals in need of  mental health counseling, ozgeorge. Some of whom are suffering because of their homosexual lifestyle "activities".  I'm praying that you do not use your passive-aggressive techniques at the suicide hotline center.
 



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« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2009, 09:42:01 PM »

Ms .Hoorah..are you a psychologist..I can see may reasons why a homosexual person would need therapy but the homosexuality would not be the focus of the therapy as heterosexuality would not be the focus of the therapy in aheterosexual person..the Church says that all unmarried people need to live a chaste life and any "fall" from that is between that person and his/her priest. I am not a Roman Catholic so I would never consider Courage to be helpful...the RC view of sin, original sin, would keep me from seeing it as helpful.
This is an Orthodox forum.
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« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2009, 09:45:30 PM »

OzGeorge...did you move to Australia? I thought you lived in Ohio? Wow...no wonder you were gone...

Passive aggressive? where did that come from..Jeepers,
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« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2009, 11:07:08 AM »

SDMPNS- I am a licensed, psychiatric-mental health practitioner with 3 decades of practice who is required, by my employer along with every other clinician at this facility, to purchase malpractice liability insurance.  There is a war occuring between patients who want to win the "lottery" by filing lawsuits against medical professionals......in case you didn't notice. When professional organizations declare something is malpractice/non-therapeutic, they should make the borders of this new, dangerous practice very clear.

Are you a social worker? (I am being respectful.  Social workers have a most difficult job.)

Ozgeorge, passive-aggressively, decided to make to tried to make me feel responsible for the suicides of two homosexuals.(see post 58 then drag out your old textbooks or google Borderline Personality Disorder and/or Passive Aggression. ozgeorge's behavior is an example of passive-aggression.)  Sleep much through grad school lectures?  I am also not responsible for the latest abortion doctor's murder because I am pro-life.

Ozgeorge asked for an example of reparative therapy that did not seek to to change the patient's sexual preference. I gave him one example, COURAGE. 
 
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« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2009, 01:49:15 PM »

I have malpractice insurance too which is very high because I work with sexually abused children and do custody evaluations.
I have never been sued and my clinical work is an open book..most malpractice suits that I have been on professional review boards for were not capricious but called for.
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« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2009, 02:18:17 PM »

I googled COURAGE and it is an interesting program.It is ,however, a RC program and this is an Orthodox forum.
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« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2009, 04:39:25 PM »

The APA previously defined reparative therapy as any attempt aimed at eliminating or suppressing homosexuality.  This is a definition which could included many types of interventions to help homosexuals practice celibacy. These are now labeled as non-therapeutic and therefore they could be considered malpractice.
Nonsense.
Firstly, homosexuality is defined by same-sex attraction (not sexual acts), therefore, presenting celibacy as an option could never be defined as "non-therapeutic'. In fact NOT presenting celibacy as an option WOULD be non-therapeutic.

I also work many individuals in need of  mental health counseling, ozgeorge. Some of whom are suffering because of their homosexual lifestyle "activities". 
What are your qualifications?

I'm praying that you do not use your passive-aggressive techniques at the suicide hotline center.
I don't work at a hotline centre. I work in a psychiatric emergency team which actually goes out to situations of threatened suicide when called by police. I don't have the luxury of being able to chat on the phone from a self-righteous distance to patients. Thanks for your prayers, but I'm sorry you think people disagreeing with your ideas is "passive-aggression".
 


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« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2009, 05:38:08 PM »

Fascinating ozgeorge.  I just lectured at continuing education course on psychiatric emergencies.  Do they really not immediately take individuals,  that are threatening passive or active suicide, directly to an ER where an the patient undergoes a medical and psychiatric evaluation by a physician? Then the physician can determine if the patient need to be admitted voluntarily or involuntarily.   I thought our health care systems were extremely similar.  You Aussies just complete all those many necessary tests in the “field”?  Amazing and hard to believe.

I previously listed my qualifications and I have no intention of giving you my home address, phone number or any other personal information.
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« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2009, 05:51:12 PM »

In case you are incompetent in addition to being rude, this is your passive-aggressive response (from post 58).

“I'm actually at work (night duty). Helping to prevent suicides. And two of them in the past have been survivors of "Reparative Therapy". Kind of cleaning up the mess you guys leave in your wake.”
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« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2009, 06:31:51 PM »

Firstly, I 'd like to ask if there is some remarkably clear and actually credible definition of "reparative therapy".

Second, I think, that it should hinge on a person's will whether or not he will attend some person who is called a "therapist", a "physician", a philosophical therapist or whatever. It is totally absurd to try to define sth as therapeutic or non-therapeutic, while this is a purely allegorical category. Of course, we all know -and, even more people with studies in fields of economics or marketing/management- that soft/social science is extremely politically biased and has been this way since a lot of decades back.

Third, defining someone as sth that some school of thought perceives as "ill" in order to claim that hiw views are faulty is a bit offensive.  Smiley
And it reminds me of the freudian "diagnosis" of the great Dostoyevsky as suffering from "hysterical epilepsy"(!!!!!) because of his "fear of guilt of his desire of patricide"(sic) etc. Perhaps this is why Kraus defined psychoanalysis as "the kind of psychopathy that thinks it can cure".  laugh Anyways, this is not exactly the topic to be discussed here. I'm just making some general statements that relate to the matter we're discussing.   Wink Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2009, 08:34:17 PM »

Firstly, I 'd like to ask if there is some remarkably clear and actually credible definition of "reparative therapy".

"Conversion therapy, sometimes called reparative therapy, involves methods intended to convert gay and lesbian people to heterosexuality, which have been a source of intense political controversy in the United States and numerous other countries. The American Psychological Association states that political and moral debates over the integration of gays and lesbians into the mainstream of American society have obscured scientific data about changing sexual orientation "by calling into question the motives and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue."" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy
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« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2009, 08:43:14 PM »

Second, I think, that it should hinge on a person's will whether or not he will attend some person who is called a "therapist", a "physician", a philosophical therapist or whatever. It is totally absurd to try to define sth as therapeutic or non-therapeutic, while this is a purely allegorical category. Of course, we all know -and, even more people with studies in fields of economics or marketing/management- that soft/social science is extremely politically biased and has been this way since a lot of decades back.
I disagree. Clients have the right to know what thier treating professional's qualifications are. Psychology is not a "soft" science, it is evidence based & measurable.
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« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2009, 01:24:45 AM »

Psychology is not a "soft" science, it is evidence based & measurable.

Can you elaborate on this? I agree with Philalethe00, that psychology is a soft science (or pseudo-science). But I am willing to concede that I'm wrong if you can substantiate your claim.

And even if it is a "soft" science, that does not automatically negate its benefits.

I have often said that, "Sometimes the most objective point of reference is admitted subjectivity." We can all make great errors and cause serious harm when we cloak subjective opinions and interpretations in the claims of objectivity. There is no shame in saying, "I'm not certain, but this is my opinion based on my years of experience and my knowledge." Then the patient or client can take that advice into consideration and make their decision. 

In regards to Reparative Therapy, I think both sides make the mistake of claiming objectivity when it actually comes down to subjective opinion. For example, I have my personal opinions about whether or not someone is born gay. My opinions are based on my Christian beliefs and upon a very limited knowledge of science. But ultimately my opinions on the matter are subjective, just as the opinions of those who hold the opposing view are ultimately subjective.   

I wouldn't have such a inherent distrust of psychiatry/psychology if the field didn't claim to be an objective science when it's not. But again, if you can prove that it is, then I will be glad to acknowledge that I'm wrong.

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« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2009, 07:48:44 AM »

Can you elaborate on this?
I can, but why would I bother when you have made up your mind already?

I agree with Philalethe00, that psychology is a soft science (or pseudo-science).
Do you? Based on what?

But I am willing to concede that I'm wrong if you can substantiate your claim.
I highly doubt that.
But in the interests of truth: All the Behavioural Sciences use data collected from measurable, repeatable experiments as well as statistics of observed phenomena. What we know about behaviour of individuals and groups is not plucked from thin air- it is observed, recorded, experimented on, measured etc. It is science.
Personal religious convictions are not science. From a scientific perspective, personal religious convictions are not measurable and at best they constitute an untested (and untestable) hypothesis and at worst they are a delusion.
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« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2009, 08:50:55 AM »

^ I could not agree more with this SDMPNS. I cannot see why Orthodox Christians would consider Reparative Therapy to be appropriate given our spiritual understanding of the Passions. We have so much more to offer than these half-baked pop-psychological ideas sprung from heretical sects. We have two millenia's understanding of how the passions work, and how to manage them: the Ladder, the Philokalia, the Evergentinos, the Apophthegmata...two milenia of living Tradition. And some people want to throw it all out to embrace a "therapy" born in heterodox cults which even the Founder of Exodus International not only admits is a failure, but was a failure in his own case! ( http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/busseeapology )
I wrote the following post over two years ago now, and I still stand by it:

There is no one on this thread, so far, that supports a magical, six month therapy program to change homosexuals’ sexual orientation.  You guys are going off on a tangent.  

My problem with the APA’s statement is that it did not specifically discuss **interventions** that they deemed were “non-therapeutic” and therefore, medical malpractice.  Perhaps they would like everyone to believe that all counseling which might change aspects in homosexuals is also non-therapeutic.  If you are truly in counseling profession, you clearly know that there are many distinct problems that are curable/treatable in this population. ( I’m not going to make a laundry list here and I don’t need anymore continuing education credits, so spare me.)  Because they chose not to address this and broadly discussed reparative therapy, many counselors (psychiatrist/psychologists/PAs/nurse practioners/clergy/social workers) are going to be held to a standard with floating or zero boundaries.  This places mental health professionals at an increased risk of liability and will eventually affect the counseling and/or access to counseling that homosexuals receive.  




When I worked in the psych hospital, we briefly had a "gay unit."  I don't recall the exact organization's name, but it was an organization that treated gays for substance abuse problems mainly.  Part of the "therapy" was having them embrace their homosexuality.  I can't remember all the details of why they were in the hospital for only a short time (they had their own ward, and were rather demanding), but I seem to recall part of it being that homosexual patients were supposed to be referred to them just because they were homosexual (which could be enough for getting rid of them: the hospital was for profit, I mean "tax-paying" Roll Eyes, and they had expected the unit to bring business in, not syphon it off.

Which such a unit be considered "malpractice?"
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« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2009, 09:08:20 AM »

Can you elaborate on this?
I can, but why would I bother when you have made up your mind already?

I agree with Philalethe00, that psychology is a soft science (or pseudo-science).
Do you? Based on what?

But I am willing to concede that I'm wrong if you can substantiate your claim.
I highly doubt that.
But in the interests of truth: All the Behavioural Sciences use data collected from measurable, repeatable experiments as well as statistics of observed phenomena. What we know about behaviour of individuals and groups is not plucked from thin air- it is observed, recorded, experimented on, measured etc. It is science.
Personal religious convictions are not science. From a scientific perspective, personal religious convictions are not measurable and at best they constitute an untested (and untestable) hypothesis and at worst they are a delusion.

Well you observe actions, and then speculate or make an educated guess about the cause of those actions. The action may be measurable and verifiable, but the cause of the action cannot be measured or verified. And therein lies the problem with equating behavioral science with "hard" science. Thoughts cannot be measured or tested. Brain waves can be measured, but no one can read someone's mind and thoughts simply by measuring their brain waves. Also, sensory feelings and emotional feelings are two different things, and psychiatry often confuses the two. Again, sensory feelings can be objectively measured to a degree, but emotions cannot be objectively quantified. And while there is often a correlation between sensory feelings and emotions, they are not one and the same and should never be assumed to be inextricably linked. Neuroscience is "hard" science; psychology/psychiatry is "soft" science.

Selam
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« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2009, 09:12:16 AM »

Well you observe actions, and then speculate or make an educated guess about the cause of those actions.
You're not reading what I wrote (just as I predicted). Thanks for proving my point. Smiley
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« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2009, 09:13:56 AM »

I can't remember all the details
Get back to me when you do.
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« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2009, 09:38:55 AM »

Well you observe actions, and then speculate or make an educated guess about the cause of those actions.
You're not reading what I wrote (just as I predicted). Thanks for proving my point. Smiley

No, I correctly stated the basic practice of behavioral science without all the euphemistic scientific sounding jargon with which you embellished it.

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« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2009, 09:52:25 AM »

Whatever gets you through the night.
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« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2009, 09:59:09 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
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« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2009, 10:17:02 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.
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« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2009, 10:28:15 AM »

I can't remember all the details
Get back to me when you do.

The Pride Unit.
http://www.pride-institute.com/drug-abuse/
Quote
Studies indicate that, when compared with the mainstream (heterosexual) population, LGBT people are more likely to use drugs, have higher rates of substance abuse, and are more likely to continue drug abuse into later life. Although LGBT people have been shown to use all types of drugs, certain drugs appear to be more popular in the LGBT community than in the mainstream community.

Gay men, for example, are significantly more likely to have used marijuana, stimulants, sedatives, cocaine, and “party drugs” (ecstasy, ketamine, and GHB) than men in the general population. The use of crystal methamphetamine in gay and bisexual men has increased dramatically in recent years and is discussed separately in another section of this website.

Studies suggest that up to 25% of the LGBT population have difficulty controlling their drug or alcohol use. When you are recovering from addiction or mental health issues, you already have enough to deal with. Your sexuality shouldn’t be viewed as another one of your problems.

At PRIDE Institute, gay is understood. You will be one of a group of like-minded people. Being LGBT is the norm at PRIDE Institute, not the exception. Our highly trained and skilled staff understands your issues and teaches you how to live a happy, healthy life as a proud LGBT person.
http://www.pride-institute.com/about/
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 10:31:59 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2009, 10:28:28 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.

And yet you routinely interpolate subjectivity and objectivity, fact and fiction. Roll Eyes

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« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2009, 10:34:34 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.

embracing a disorder (yes, I think we discussed the politically motivated change in the DMV).
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« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2009, 10:37:00 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.

George,   I have known a few Orthodox gays to claim that they are getting a very raw deal from the Church.  They claim that up until the 1820s the Rite for Brothermaking  (Bratotvorenie in Russian and Adelphopoiia in Greek) was an Orthodox marriage service for gay marriage.  They say that in around the 1820s the Catholic Church persuaded the Orthodox to do away with this marriage rite.  In my opinion, this mitigates against their contention- what influence could the Catholic Church have had on the Orthodox in the early 19th century!?    Now I have always been taught that Brothermaking was simply what it says, and indeed I have participated in the rite in Serbia.  Do you think though that it actually had the status of a marriage ceremony in our Church? Did we do away with it for that reason?  Would it be beneficial to gay Orthodox to re-instate it, either as brother-making or as marriage? 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 10:38:45 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2009, 10:55:45 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.

George,   I have known a few Orthodox gays to claim that they are getting a very raw deal from the Church.  They claim that up until the 1820s the Rite for Brothermaking  (Bratotvorenie in Russian and Adelphopoiia in Greek) was an Orthodox marriage service for gay marriage.  They say that in around the 1820s the Catholic Church persuaded the Orthodox to do away with this marriage rite.  In my opinion, this mitigates against their contention- what influence could the Catholic Church have had on the Orthodox in the early 19th century!?    Now I have always been taught that Brothermaking was simply what it says, and indeed I have participated in the rite in Serbia.  Do you think though that it actually had the status of a marriage ceremony in our Church? Did we do away with it for that reason?  Would it be beneficial to gay Orthodox to re-instate it, either as brother-making or as marriage? 
What exactly does any of this have to do with "reparative therapy"?
You're right SDMPS. Nobody's paying attention.
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« Reply #89 on: August 12, 2009, 11:01:47 AM »

I can't remember all the details
Get back to me when you do.

The Pride Unit.
http://www.pride-institute.com/drug-abuse/
Quote
Studies indicate that, when compared with the mainstream (heterosexual) population, LGBT people are more likely to use drugs, have higher rates of substance abuse, and are more likely to continue drug abuse into later life. Although LGBT people have been shown to use all types of drugs, certain drugs appear to be more popular in the LGBT community than in the mainstream community.

Gay men, for example, are significantly more likely to have used marijuana, stimulants, sedatives, cocaine, and “party drugs” (ecstasy, ketamine, and GHB) than men in the general population. The use of crystal methamphetamine in gay and bisexual men has increased dramatically in recent years and is discussed separately in another section of this website.

Studies suggest that up to 25% of the LGBT population have difficulty controlling their drug or alcohol use. When you are recovering from addiction or mental health issues, you already have enough to deal with. Your sexuality shouldn’t be viewed as another one of your problems.

At PRIDE Institute, gay is understood. You will be one of a group of like-minded people. Being LGBT is the norm at PRIDE Institute, not the exception. Our highly trained and skilled staff understands your issues and teaches you how to live a happy, healthy life as a proud LGBT person.
http://www.pride-institute.com/about/
As SMDPS asked, do you think this would be against APA principles or constitute "reparative therapy"? If so, why?
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« Reply #90 on: August 12, 2009, 11:03:47 AM »

OzGeorge...give up..people are not paying attention..stop confusing them with the facts
A "gay" substance abuse" specific unit would not be against the APA resolution..they are treating substance abuse as relating to the "gay" lifestyle". They are not doing "reparative therapy". There is a women's addiction program in Chicago...women handle addiction differently than men..its the same concept as the "gay" program..trying to provide a safe environment.
I know they're not listening. But this forum is publicly available so my presenting facts is simply to place them on the record.

George,   I have known a few Orthodox gays to claim that they are getting a very raw deal from the Church.  They claim that up until the 1820s the Rite for Brothermaking  (Bratotvorenie in Russian and Adelphopoiia in Greek) was an Orthodox marriage service for gay marriage.  They say that in around the 1820s the Catholic Church persuaded the Orthodox to do away with this marriage rite.  In my opinion, this mitigates against their contention- what influence could the Catholic Church have had on the Orthodox in the early 19th century!?    Now I have always been taught that Brothermaking was simply what it says, and indeed I have participated in the rite in Serbia.  Do you think though that it actually had the status of a marriage ceremony in our Church? Did we do away with it for that reason?  Would it be beneficial to gay Orthodox to re-instate it, either as brother-making or as marriage? 
What exactly does any of this have to do with "reparative therapy"?

Not with "reparative" therapy but with a broader concept of therapy. It is not often we have the chance to ask advice from a practising psychologist who is well versed in the homosexual psyche and I was wondering if you would see the restoration of same-sex marriage in the Christian community as beneficial to the well-being of homosexual people?

Most people participating in this thread are laymen in this area and it is a privilege to have your advice born from study and hands-on experience.
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« Reply #91 on: August 12, 2009, 11:19:29 AM »

Why not start a new thread rather than derail this one?
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« Reply #92 on: August 12, 2009, 01:16:39 PM »

I can't remember all the details
Get back to me when you do.

The Pride Unit.
http://www.pride-institute.com/drug-abuse/
Quote
Studies indicate that, when compared with the mainstream (heterosexual) population, LGBT people are more likely to use drugs, have higher rates of substance abuse, and are more likely to continue drug abuse into later life. Although LGBT people have been shown to use all types of drugs, certain drugs appear to be more popular in the LGBT community than in the mainstream community.

Gay men, for example, are significantly more likely to have used marijuana, stimulants, sedatives, cocaine, and “party drugs” (ecstasy, ketamine, and GHB) than men in the general population. The use of crystal methamphetamine in gay and bisexual men has increased dramatically in recent years and is discussed separately in another section of this website.

Studies suggest that up to 25% of the LGBT population have difficulty controlling their drug or alcohol use. When you are recovering from addiction or mental health issues, you already have enough to deal with. Your sexuality shouldn’t be viewed as another one of your problems.

At PRIDE Institute, gay is understood. You will be one of a group of like-minded people. Being LGBT is the norm at PRIDE Institute, not the exception. Our highly trained and skilled staff understands your issues and teaches you how to live a happy, healthy life as a proud LGBT person.
http://www.pride-institute.com/about/
As SMDPS asked, do you think this would be against APA principles or constitute "reparative therapy"? If so, why?

Of course it is evident that it wouldn't.  Having worked with lots of APA members, I can say "Physician, heal thyself."

So they declare nothing is broke, so don't fix it.  The "broke" list includes:

Quote
Sexual Disorders and Dysfunctions

 

Common Characteristics


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The primary characteristic in this category is the impairment in normal sexual functioning.  This can refer to an inability to perform or reach an orgasm, painful sexual intercourse, a strong repulsion of sexual activity, or an exaggerated sexual response cycle or sexual interest.  A medical cause must be ruled out prior to making any sexual dysfunction diagnosis and the symptoms must be hindering the person's everyday functioning.

 

Gender Identity Disorder has also been placed in this category, although no outward dysfunction needs to be present for this disorder.  Basically, it includes strong feelings of being the wrong gender, or feelings that your outward body is inconsistent with your internal sense of being either male or female.

 

Disorders in this Category


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Dyspareunia

  Female Orgasmic Disorder

  Female Sexual Arousal Disorder

  Gender Identity Disorder

  Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder

  Male Erectile Disorder

  Male Orgasmic Disorder

  Premature Ejaculation

  Sexual Aversion Disorder

  Vaginismus

So no interest in the opposite sex is not a disorder, but no interest in sex is, as is too much interest in sex.  Strong feelings of being the wrong gender, as opposed to being attracted to the wrong gender, needs no outward "dysfunction" to qualify as a disorder.

"Symptoms must be hindering the person's everyday functioning."  Hmmmm.  It seems "studies indicat[ing] that, when compared with the mainstream (heterosexual) population, LGBT people are more likely to use drugs, have higher rates of substance abuse, and are more likely to continue drug abuse into later life" should qualify, but then we are told rather dogmatically by the PI and ADA that homo"sexuality shouldn’t be viewed as another one of your problems."  Something is hindering them from being able to "live a happy, healthy life as a proud LGBT person."

Must be society, society must be fixed.
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« Reply #93 on: August 12, 2009, 02:52:59 PM »

When “repeats” return to my place of employment, after completing their h&p, I speak at length to them about finding a different lifestyle with less domestic abuse between partners, less drug/alcohol abuse, and less promiscuity,  all of which has an increased incidence in the homosexual population.  With the APA’s declaration I believe that I can be now be sued for malpracice. 

You what really bothers me at my job?  The fact the there are many homosexuals that want to blame heterosexuals for their pain and suffering and I see SO many that have literally beaten the living crap out of their “lover”.  The incidence of abuse among homosexual partners is significantly greater than heterosexual partners.
 
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14650663

According to the American Journal of Health, battery between homosexuals is a almost a national heath emergency.
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/92/12/1964
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« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2009, 03:35:06 PM »

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/92/12/1964

American Journal of Public Health-
       This study demonstrates that intimate partner abuse among urban MSM is a very serious public health problem.
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« Reply #95 on: August 12, 2009, 03:59:05 PM »

In addition to knowing that homosexuality is a sin,  I know that homosexuals have an increased incidence of domestic/sexual violence, drug/alcohol addiction, promiscuity and all the mental and medical health problems that will occur with these.  Does God hold me to a higher standard on Judgement Day if I don’t vigorously encourage homosexual patients to avoid this dangerous lifestyle or sexual orientation (which now, according to the APA, is malpractice)?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 04:13:17 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #96 on: August 12, 2009, 05:20:14 PM »

Here is the danger:

The APA declared reparative therapy non-therapeutic to alter the behavior of medical/mental health clinicians.  In health care, the word non-therapeutic can mean harmful.  Therefore,  any counseling approaching reparative therapy or supporting changes in homosexuals’ behaviors may also be seen as harmful to a medical malpractice attorney. The APA’s declaration placed many aspects of counseling for homosexuals on the long list of “things you can sue health care providers for”.  It will take years of malpractice suits to determine exactly how close counseling sessions can get to “the declared non-therapeutic treatment” without risk of legal action.
I wonder if advising a homosexual to remain celibate would be considered malpractice if suggested by a therapist.

I wonder how long it will be before a layman doing the same would be considered as committing a "hate crime."
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« Reply #97 on: August 12, 2009, 05:24:47 PM »

So no interest in the opposite sex is not a disorder, but no interest in sex is, as is too much interest in sex.
Where does it say that no interest in sex is a disorder?
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« Reply #98 on: August 12, 2009, 06:31:40 PM »

If I see a person walking into or playing in a disaster zone, I  feel I should protect them to prevent his/her destruction or injury.  With the numerous mental and medical problems associated with homosexuality, I personally consider homosexuality a disaster zone.  It upsets me that with the APA’s declaration, I could be sued for attempting to counsel patients to avoid danger.

I searched today for positive medical aspects of practicing homosexuality as opposed to practicing celibacy or heterosexuality. I couldn’t locate anything except some questionable studies about increased frequency of sex among homosexuals compared to heterosexuals. Considering that homosexuals have an increased incidence of HIV, AIDS, anal cancer, sadism with sex, venereal diseases, Hepatitis A and B,  and associated  liver failure/liver cancer, urethritis rates, and oral, sex-related diseases, this is not a positive benefit.

It is important to know that the impact of the health consequences of homosexual sex is not just confined to homosexuals. The increased spending for the various diseases that occur with a higher incidence in the gay population removes a disproportionate amount of money from research into cures for diseases that affect more people. Cancer is one example. Eleven million Americans have cancer and three-quarters of a million have AIDS.  Bizarrely,  AIDS spending is seven times more than that of cancer. Yes, I am aware that there are heterosexuals infected with HIV.  Realize that in America, over sixty-five percent of new HIV diagnoses come from homosexual males.

I am left then with the knowledge that the only positive benefit of practicing homosexuality is for the patients’ self-esteem/self-identity needs.  I am puzzled that with the known dangers of practicing homosexuality that many gays do not find other ways to meet these needs. I am puzzled and upset by the APA's declaration but not surprised by it since their history is known.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 07:01:56 PM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #99 on: August 12, 2009, 06:31:57 PM »

@ozgeorge

Quote
"Conversion therapy, sometimes called reparative therapy, involves methods intended to convert gay and lesbian people to heterosexuality, which have been a source of intense political controversy in the United States and numerous other countries. The American Psychological Association states that political and moral debates over the integration of gays and lesbians into the mainstream of American society have obscured scientific data about changing sexual orientation "by calling into question the motives and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue."" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

Thank you for the information. Even though Wikipedia is a very ambiguous source;some of its articles are scientifically adequate, but some are very very biased and for reasons obvious enough.  Smiley
Quote
I disagree. Clients have the right to know what thier treating professional's qualifications are. Psychology is not a "soft" science, it is evidence based & measurable.
That's correct. Clients have the right to know what their psychological perceptions are, but this does not mean that some Associations should establish a scientific pseudo-orthodoxy that is to be imposed.
There are a lot of kinds of psychologies:there is freudian, postfreudian, existential, christian existential, philosophical psychology of Plato, Aristotle's saved specific work upon the human soul, Gustave Le Bon's "psychology of crowds"(which I have read until the end) etc., etc. All these schools of thought have different perceptions about what is acceptable or not, "ill" and "healthy".
Quote
No, I correctly stated the basic practice of behavioral science without all the euphemistic scientific sounding jargon with which you embellished it.
That's right. Ozgeorge's views on the subject are mistaken and tend to the philosophy of scientisme. However, we agree upon the fact that religion is sth not concrete and credible; this is why Orthodoxy, as Fr. J. Romanides says, is against religion and it is a positive science. I have a great deal of things to state on this, but the topic is not exactly this one.   Smiley
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« Reply #100 on: August 12, 2009, 06:45:32 PM »

So no interest in the opposite sex is not a disorder, but no interest in sex is, as is too much interest in sex.
Where does it say that no interest in sex is a disorder?

Hypoactive sexual desire is a real diagnosis, ozgeorge.   Do you just write policies at your job or do you actively practice?



Edited to remove sarcastic ad hominem
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« Reply #101 on: August 12, 2009, 07:01:46 PM »

So no interest in the opposite sex is not a disorder, but no interest in sex is, as is too much interest in sex.
Where does it say that no interest in sex is a disorder?

Hypoactive sexual desire is a real diagnosis, ozgeorge.   Do you just write policies at your job or do you actively practice?
Sounds like you may only be a psych tech to me.

There were a lot of saints that had managed to gain total apathy regarding the passion and the demons of adultery and sexual desire(some were hieromonks). Did they actually have a disorder?  Roll Eyes  I think that you people who work within this field should be more modest regarging your views, as there is a dark history of "disorders" such as drapetomania(runaway slaves that wanted their freedom-it's formed of greek words actually  Wink Smiley ) or hysteria(which resembled feminist activity a lot).
Anyway, I'm just commenting on this sheer paradox...
Smiley
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« Reply #102 on: August 12, 2009, 07:17:52 PM »

philalethe00,

The “immodest diagnosis” has existed in America since the Victorian years.  No competent practitioner would diagnose any individual with this disorder if the individual was consciously attempting to control their passions.  That said, I have my doubts about some in the American Psychological Association.
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« Reply #103 on: August 12, 2009, 07:42:10 PM »

Its DSM not DMV...the people at the Department of Motor Vehicles have enough problems
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« Reply #104 on: August 12, 2009, 09:21:52 PM »

From a public health perspective, it is quite clear that HIV/AIDS is being handled differently than any other serious communicable disease. There are many reasons for this: going from the general to the specific, IMHO the reasons are post-modern relativism, the effort to tear down traditional society for left-wing ideological reasons, and the long-standing political effort to make homosexuality (inclination and conduct) as normal as heterosexuality.

Under these conditions, I tend to agree with Ms. Hoorah that it may be dangerous to practice one's profession if one does not go along with today's political line. This APA decision is not based purely on "evidence-based practice" and may indeed do harm to Christian therapists and counselors.
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« Reply #105 on: August 12, 2009, 09:43:14 PM »

Here are additional, medical consequences of why I encourage the homosexual patients at my facility to avoid homosexuality.  I do not discriminate against patients.   I encourage everyone, regardless of sexual preference, to avoid behavior/lifestyles that are dangerous and self-destructive.   With the APA's declaration, I may be risking malpractice.

Warning:  The following reference contains “sensitive material not suitable for those adults who may be trying to eat a snack while surfing the web”.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html
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« Reply #106 on: August 13, 2009, 01:24:54 AM »

So no interest in the opposite sex is not a disorder, but no interest in sex is, as is too much interest in sex.
Where does it say that no interest in sex is a disorder?


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/Story?id=6656358&page=1
Quote
But asexuals like Jay are perfectly happy to take a pass on sex. Today, Jay is one of the most prominent voices in the asexuality community. In 2001, he started the Asexual Visibility and Education Network (AVEN) with the aim of providing a community for people who identify themselves as asexual

Recently, Jay and others within AVEN began lobbying for greater understanding of asexuality among the psychological community as well. Their message is simple: they want increased recognition of asexuality among psychological professionals -- while ensuring that it is seen as a legitimate sexual orientation rather than diagnosed as a mental illness.

Bogaert's 2004 study is viewed by some as the first solid toehold for asexuality in the spectrum of sexual orientation -- a group which until recently had been comprised only of three categories: heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality. In it, Bogaert looked at data from a survey of more than 18,000 British residents and examined their answers on a particular question on sexual attraction to others. While five of the possible answers to the question focused on varying levels of attraction to males or females, the sixth answer that respondents could choose read "I have never felt sexually attracted to anyone at all."

"About 1 percent of individuals reported having no sexual attraction to anyone at all," he said. "This was the missing fourth category of sexual orientation."

What followed this finding was much discussion over whether asexuality should be seen as a distinct sexual orientation or treated as a pathological condition -- a debate that largely persists until today.

Prior to this research, and even until today, asexual tendencies were generally assumed to be a sign of hypoactive sexual desire disorder (HSDD) -- in other words, a low sex drive. It is a distinction with which the psychological community still wrestles.

"[Asexuals] may want to pair-bond with another individual, and most likely they will be pair-bonding with someone who's sexual," he said. "So then you often have pressure placed on the asexual person to have sex within the relationship, even if he or she really doesn't want to have sex."

Eli Coleman, professor and director of the program in human sexuality at the University of Minnesota Medical School, said that this clash of expectations could lead to serious relationship stress.

"The biggest challenge would be the pressure to become sexual," Coleman said. "Asexuality has been assumed to be abnormal. Sexual drive is a basic and fundamental appetitive drive and would be the expected norm."

Asexuality: it's not just for Amoebas anymore.
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« Reply #107 on: August 13, 2009, 06:34:57 AM »

Asexuality: it's not just for Amoebas anymore.
Hypoactive sexual desire is only a disorder if it causes the patient distress ialmisry:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/hypoactive_sexual_desire_disorder.htm
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« Reply #108 on: August 13, 2009, 07:55:46 AM »

Hypoactive sexual desire is a real diagnosis, ozgeorge.   
No it isn't. It is a disorder only if it is ego dystonic (see above). But I'm sure you knew that.....
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« Reply #109 on: August 13, 2009, 08:33:26 AM »

From a public health perspective, it is quite clear that HIV/AIDS is being handled differently than any other serious communicable disease. There are many reasons for this: going from the general to the specific, IMHO the reasons are post-modern relativism, the effort to tear down traditional society for left-wing ideological reasons, and the long-standing political effort to make homosexuality (inclination and conduct) as normal as heterosexuality.
It's a blood borne virus, and it is treated no different to any other blood borne virus (like Hep C).
Viruses don't have politics. They don't care what you vote or what you believe or how you live.
Only in the United States could a virus be politicized.
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« Reply #110 on: August 13, 2009, 08:38:55 AM »

Why should Roman Catholic teaching determine Orthodox Christian responses?
Are you Roman Catholic Ms. Hoorah?
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« Reply #111 on: August 13, 2009, 09:07:13 AM »

From a public health perspective, it is quite clear that HIV/AIDS is being handled differently than any other serious communicable disease. There are many reasons for this: going from the general to the specific, IMHO the reasons are post-modern relativism, the effort to tear down traditional society for left-wing ideological reasons, and the long-standing political effort to make homosexuality (inclination and conduct) as normal as heterosexuality.
It's a blood borne virus, and it is treated no different to any other blood borne virus (like Hep C).
Viruses don't have politics. They don't care what you vote or what you believe or how you live.
Only in the United States could a virus be politicized.

Viruses don't have politics, eh?  How is the AIDS virus better funded then than the Hepitis viruses?

And they care very much how you live: that how they are transmitted.
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« Reply #112 on: August 13, 2009, 09:18:52 AM »

Viruses don't have politics, eh? 
Um, no. They are RNA or DNA strands in a capsule.

How is the AIDS virus better funded then than the Hepitis viruses?
No one funds viruses. They don't need money. And there is no such thing as an "AIDS virus". AIDS is a syndrome. The virus which causes it is HIV.

And they care very much how you live: that how they are transmitted.
Really? My friend Kylie had Hep C. The most likely mode of transmission was a shared toothbrush.
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« Reply #113 on: August 13, 2009, 09:23:27 AM »

philalethe00,

The “immodest diagnosis” has existed in America since the Victorian years.  No competent practitioner would diagnose any individual with this disorder if the individual was consciously attempting to control their passions.  That said, I have my doubts about some in the American Psychological Association.
Dear ms. hoorah,
I am aware that these "metaphysics of medical science" have been here and there since then. One could argue that it's a distinct characteristic of modernite or "bourgeois-democracy" or post-enlightenment period. But, saying the least, has the healing function of the Church as a Spiritual Hospital not been here since 33 A.D.?    Smiley
Regarding the second point, I am glad that you have the kindness and discretion not to tamper with the sacra interna of war against sin, but, honestly, I really am not sure if the majority of the people who have this profession are of the same opinion......

I 'd like to elaborate on the very very deep theological differences between the "RC" and EO that produce
the radically different approaches, but the thread would be derailed, I am afraid... (Maybe another time.)  Smiley
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« Reply #114 on: August 13, 2009, 09:57:23 AM »

Asexuality: it's not just for Amoebas anymore.
Hypoactive sexual desire is only a disorder if it causes the patient distress ialmisry:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/hypoactive_sexual_desire_disorder.htm


Yes, I know that: if you read my posts Dr. Oz you would be aware of that fact. If you read the article, you would be aware of the odds of stress, at 1% they have a far better than even chance of having relationship stress.

But maybe Kinsey will come up with some survey that will bump up the numbers, claim asexuality is just on the spectrum, blah, blah, blah and the DSM-IV can be revised to show its just an orientation and not a disease in need of a cure,......

Increased drug abuse, domestic abuse, rates of depression, HIV rates,....sounds like a lot of stessors.
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« Reply #115 on: August 13, 2009, 09:57:50 AM »

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html

The author of this cited article is  Dr. John R. Diggs, Jr.,a practicing Internist (Internal Medicine physician), with first-hand experience in treating many of the problems described in this paper. He also travels and lectures on a variety of medical topics to audiences around the world.

I have no knowledge of his religious affiliation.  Here is his office info. in case anyone need it.
Dr. John R. Diggs, MD, Internal Medicine, located in Monson, MA ...
Dr.John R. Diggs, Internal Medicine, Monson, Massachusetts,(MA), Palmer, Massachusetts,(MA), Check Doctor reports, ratings, credentials, information, ...
www.healthgrades.com/...md.../Dr-John-Diggs-MD-39934084.cfm - Cached - Similar

Here are other interesting articles involving the same physician.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fistgate
http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2000/9_Sept/900fist3.htm
http://www.massnews.com/2003_Editions/3_March/030703_mn_fistgate_again.shtml

Are you Roman Catholic Ms. Hoorah?
After looking at your photo and others on OCnet, I can honestly tell you that I have been an Orthodox Christian for much longer than you.

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« Reply #116 on: August 13, 2009, 10:05:13 AM »

Viruses don't have politics, eh? 
Um, no. They are RNA or DNA strands in a capsule.

Then funding can comport with need of the infected, no?

How is the AIDS virus better funded then than the Hepitis viruses?
No one funds viruses. They don't need money. And there is no such thing as an "AIDS virus". AIDS is a syndrome. The virus which causes it is HIV.

Really? the UN and WHO gave AIDS its own day.
Do symdromes have awareness?  'Cuz if not, we can drop all the funding for promoting "AIDS awareness."

And they care very much how you live: that how they are transmitted.
Really? My friend Kylie had Hep C. The most likely mode of transmission was a shared toothbrush.

That was a lifestyle choice. My dentist and the ADA spend a lot of time and money telling us "don't do that."

I slept with someone with hep B (diagnosed as chronic) for 8 years. Of course, I was married to her.  I knew the risks.
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« Reply #117 on: August 13, 2009, 10:07:03 AM »

Asexuality: it's not just for Amoebas anymore.
Hypoactive sexual desire is only a disorder if it causes the patient distress ialmisry:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/hypoactive_sexual_desire_disorder.htm

Not completely true. DON'T practice medicine, ozgeorge, without a medical license. Hypoactive sexual desire can be a symptom of several other serious medical conditions, for example- pituitary tumors.
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« Reply #118 on: August 13, 2009, 10:09:25 AM »

Asexuality: it's not just for Amoebas anymore.
Hypoactive sexual desire is only a disorder if it causes the patient distress ialmisry:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/hypoactive_sexual_desire_disorder.htm

Not completely true. DON'T practice medicine, ozgeorge, without a medical license. Hypoactive sexual desire can be a symptom of several other serious medical conditions, for example- pituitary tumors.

No it can't Ms Hoorah: the APA can redact the DSM and it can become an orientation and therefore not in need of reparative therapy.  You don't want to get sued for malpractice, do you?
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« Reply #119 on: August 13, 2009, 10:19:46 AM »

Asexuality: it's not just for Amoebas anymore.
Hypoactive sexual desire is only a disorder if it causes the patient distress ialmisry:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/hypoactive_sexual_desire_disorder.htm

Not completely true. DON'T practice medicine, ozgeorge, without a medical license. Hypoactive sexual desire can be a symptom of several other serious medical conditions, for example- pituitary tumors.

But ozgeorge (via the link) isn't talking about hypo-sexual activity as a symptom of something else, but as a condition in its own right.  If hypo-sexualism is not a symptom and does not cause any psychological distress, why would it be construed as a "disorder"?
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« Reply #120 on: August 13, 2009, 12:38:37 PM »

Asexuality: it's not just for Amoebas anymore.
Hypoactive sexual desire is only a disorder if it causes the patient distress ialmisry:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/hypoactive_sexual_desire_disorder.htm

Not completely true. DON'T practice medicine, ozgeorge, without a medical license. Hypoactive sexual desire can be a symptom of several other serious medical conditions, for example- pituitary tumors.

But ozgeorge (via the link) isn't talking about hypo-sexual activity as a symptom of something else, but as a condition in its own right.  If hypo-sexualism is not a symptom and does not cause any psychological distress, why would it be construed as a "disorder"?

To fully understand the answer to your question, you must research the American Psychiatric Assoc. and understand this organization’s “interesting” opinions.

The following is my summary/interpretation of Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder from American Psychiatric Association. (1994). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fourth edition. Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association.

If a patient does not have consistent and reoccurring sexual fantasies and desire for sexual activity, they are certainly ill......AND.....this really awful and terrible illness will cause them distress and interpersonal difficulty.....read this as: One will become hysterical or reeeeally uptight unless (place phrase here).
Turn up the hippie music, man!   Wink (I was really hoping for that dancing banana emoticon to put here.)
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« Reply #121 on: August 13, 2009, 12:44:11 PM »

And yet the DSM says this:

Quote
This is considered a disorder if it causes distress for the patient or problems in the patient's relationships.
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« Reply #122 on: August 13, 2009, 12:50:43 PM »

Obviously Shultz, you have never been to a secular psychiatrist....for which I am happy.   Read:  This is considered a disorder if it causes distress for the patient or the psychiatrist or problems in the patient's relationships. Wink
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« Reply #123 on: August 13, 2009, 12:55:47 PM »

No, I have not.  I've accompanied my wife on a few of her visits (at her request, not the therapists') and was kind of bewildered about the whole thing.  It did seem a bit manipulative to me, but I also know there are therapists who are not like that.

Are you saying that the DSM-IV differs, then, greatly in theory and practice?
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« Reply #124 on: August 13, 2009, 01:13:00 PM »

No, I have not.  I've accompanied my wife on a few of her visits (at her request, not the therapists') and was kind of bewildered about the whole thing.  It did seem a bit manipulative to me, but I also know there are therapists who are not like that.

Are you saying that the DSM-IV differs, then, greatly in theory and practice?

I have not read any published studies on this interesting question so I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience.  My answer to your question is “no”. 
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« Reply #125 on: August 13, 2009, 04:31:57 PM »

If a patient does not have consistent and reoccurring sexual fantasies and desire for sexual activity, they are certainly ill......AND.....this really awful and terrible illness will cause them distress and interpersonal difficulty.....read this as: One will become hysterical or reeeeally uptight unless (place phrase here)
Perhaps your reading into things is the problem.
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« Reply #126 on: August 13, 2009, 04:37:30 PM »

I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience. 
As a Roman Catholic applying your moral views on others?
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« Reply #127 on: August 13, 2009, 05:59:19 PM »

I think it's important to remember that the scientific community looks through very different lenses at the world than we do.  In a day and age where society is terribly afraid to 'offend' anyone (except Christians), it's not surprising that these are the answers the APA have come up with.  The repercussions of science essentially condoning and approving homosexuality will have grave consequences for the civilization that we now live in.  I don't know if it's already been said on this thread, but are there any statistics that show the success rate of reparative therapy?  From what I have come to understand about it, it's not successful at all.  As the Church teaches, those who are homosexual are called to a live of chastity no matter how difficult it may be, just as we are called to treat persons who are homosexual with love and compassion.
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« Reply #128 on: August 13, 2009, 07:38:09 PM »

I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience. 
As a Roman Catholic applying your moral views on others?

That is an interesting contribution to the thread, George.  What would you see as the substantive differences between Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox with their moral teaching on homosexuality?
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« Reply #129 on: August 13, 2009, 08:27:41 PM »

All unmarried persons are called to chastity in the Orthodox Church not just homosexuals.
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« Reply #130 on: August 14, 2009, 11:48:18 AM »

Post #58
Don't worry, it's just the manic phase.
I'm actually at work (night duty). Helping to prevent suicides. And two of them in the past have been survivors of "Reparative Therapy". Kind of cleaning up the mess you guys leave in your wake.


ozgeorge,
After thinking about your comment to me, implying that I have murdered homosexuals, I searched the internet and found this interesting web page.

http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2000/Schools/fistrep.htm#10

At a workshop conducted by gay activists,  homosexual supporters were taught to extort the compassion of non-homosexual- lifestyle supporters to counteract messages used by the “Religious Wrong” (someone with Orthodox Christian values).
From this cited web page under “Religious Wrong Exposed” by Tom Duggan.  ( I have capitalized some of the following words.)

“Mitchell then turned to the audience and explained the need to combat such questions by using safety and SUICIDE PREVENTION issues as their mantra. Several times during the discussions Mitchell told the participants when they get in trouble during such discussion with the public or the press to:

"Just keep bringing it back to safety. That’s the message."

Strategies to "Combat the Religious Wrong" 
Mitchell outlined his strategies on combating the Religious Wrong "in your community."
1) FOCUS ON VIOLENCE Prevention. Always go back to the issues of safety to explain why Gay/Straight Alliances need to be formed. "VIOLENCE HELPS US!" he said.  He said violence in the schools helps because that means there is more of a need for safety education. One teacher said, "That means they get to have more of these seminars, more money from the government and more government sponsored political activism. Just imagine having a workshop to COMBAT VIOLENCE and then telling young children to be activists and concluding with, ‘VIOLENCE HELPS US.’"

2) Focus on Legal Perspectives, He used the 1996 lawsuit which was settled for $900,000. The suit was about Jamie Dboznia who was not protected from gay bashing by his school. "Focusing on legal perspectives also helps to bring the focus back to safe schools," he said.

3) Put a Face on Homophobia. "Matthew Sheppard  is a good example," Mitchell said. "But he is not the most diverse person you can use. He only got all that the publicity because he was white."

4) Use Statistics Effectively. "Just the Facts was sent to all Superintendents in the country," Mitchell said. "Now the opposition has a response, ‘Just the Facts on Just the Facts,’ but they have no credible organizations or data to support them in this, unlike the original which came from the Center for Disease Control and the Youth Risk Survey."

Build Coalitions Proactively with Like-minded Groups. "Be prepared and come together," he said. "Use the Coalition for Democracy, use the NAACP, The Anti-Defamation League and Planned Parenthood." 
"Remember," Mitchell told the audience, "IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO TIE THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT TO HATRED”.

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« Reply #131 on: August 14, 2009, 05:58:39 PM »

I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience. 
As a Roman Catholic applying your moral views on others?

That is an interesting contribution to the thread, George.  What would you see as the substantive differences between Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox with their moral teaching on homosexuality?

Clearly you completely missed the point.
It doesn't matter if Ms. Hoorah is RC, Hindu, Bahai, Atheist  or anything else.
A psychotherapist is not an evangelist. Our job is not to apply or impose our moral or political views on anyone.
That's your job, remember?
If Ms. Hoorah wishes to practice as a Priest, let them be a Priest, but psychotherapy is not a front for pretending to be one.
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« Reply #132 on: August 14, 2009, 09:00:44 PM »

I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience. 
As a Roman Catholic applying your moral views on others?

That is an interesting contribution to the thread, George.  What would you see as the substantive differences between Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox with their moral teaching on homosexuality?

Clearly you completely missed the point.
It doesn't matter if Ms. Hoorah is RC, Hindu, Bahai, Atheist  or anything else.
A psychotherapist is not an evangelist. Our job is not to apply or impose our moral or political views on anyone.
That's your job, remember?
If Ms. Hoorah wishes to practice as a Priest, let them be a Priest, but psychotherapy is not a front for pretending to be one.

The thread is entitled "Christian Therapists".  Judging from what you say you are able to leave your Christian principles at the front door of the ward or clinic or the hotline helpdesk but obviously other Christians do not do that.  So my question in response to your contribution is valid but you are not the person able to respond to it.
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« Reply #133 on: August 14, 2009, 09:11:27 PM »

I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience. 
As a Roman Catholic applying your moral views on others?

That is an interesting contribution to the thread, George.  What would you see as the substantive differences between Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox with their moral teaching on homosexuality?

Clearly you completely missed the point.
It doesn't matter if Ms. Hoorah is RC, Hindu, Bahai, Atheist  or anything else.
A psychotherapist is not an evangelist. Our job is not to apply or impose our moral or political views on anyone.
That's your job, remember?
If Ms. Hoorah wishes to practice as a Priest, let them be a Priest, but psychotherapy is not a front for pretending to be one.

The thread is entitled "Christian Therapists".  Judging from what you say you are able to leave your Christian principles at the front door of the ward or clinic or the hotline helpdesk but obviously other Christians do not do that.  So my question in response to your contribution is valid but you are not the person able to respond to it.
Judging is, as we know, part of your job, so when you say "judging from what you say", you're only doing your job. But a Psychotherapist's job is not to "judge from what people say", nor to impose their moral beliefs on the patient. In order to do this effectively, they must remain value neutral in their therapy, which does not (as many misunderstand) mean that they have no values, but rather, it is a recognition that the expert in a patient's psychological problems is the patient themselves.
If a "Christian Therapist" is required to impose their moral and value system on patients, then they can only treat Christians or those willing to accept Christianity's teaching. Which, as I point out above, is the role of an evangelist, not a Psychotherapist.
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« Reply #134 on: August 15, 2009, 01:04:19 AM »

I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience. 
As a Roman Catholic applying your moral views on others?

That is an interesting contribution to the thread, George.  What would you see as the substantive differences between Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox with their moral teaching on homosexuality?

Clearly you completely missed the point.
It doesn't matter if Ms. Hoorah is RC, Hindu, Bahai, Atheist  or anything else.
A psychotherapist is not an evangelist. Our job is not to apply or impose our moral or political views on anyone.
That's your job, remember?
If Ms. Hoorah wishes to practice as a Priest, let them be a Priest, but psychotherapy is not a front for pretending to be one.

The thread is entitled "Christian Therapists".  Judging from what you say you are able to leave your Christian principles at the front door of the ward or clinic or the hotline helpdesk but obviously other Christians do not do that.  So my question in response to your contribution is valid but you are not the person able to respond to it.
Judging is, as we know, part of your job, so when you say "judging from what you say", you're only doing your job. But a Psychotherapist's job is not to "judge from what people say", nor to impose their moral beliefs on the patient. In order to do this effectively, they must remain value neutral in their therapy, which does not (as many misunderstand) mean that they have no values, but rather, it is a recognition that the expert in a patient's psychological problems is the patient themselves.
If a "Christian Therapist" is required to impose their moral and value system on patients, then they can only treat Christians or those willing to accept Christianity's teaching. Which, as I point out above, is the role of an evangelist, not a Psychotherapist.

 
Because of the serious health problems associated with homosexuality, as stated in the article written by the following Internal Medicine physician, it is my medical and Christian obligation to warn patients about the dangers of practicing homosexuality.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html   

Do you sing this beautiful hymn in the Greek church?  In my “section” of the Orthodox Church, we  sing this ......
"A new commandment I give unto you, that you will love one another, as I have loved you…"(John 13: 34).
 
Loving one another includes trying to protect them from harm.
 
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« Reply #135 on: August 15, 2009, 01:13:10 AM »

I can only answer from my own 58,000 hours of clinical experience. 
As a Roman Catholic applying your moral views on others?

That is an interesting contribution to the thread, George.  What would you see as the substantive differences between Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox with their moral teaching on homosexuality?

Clearly you completely missed the point.
It doesn't matter if Ms. Hoorah is RC, Hindu, Bahai, Atheist  or anything else.
A psychotherapist is not an evangelist. Our job is not to apply or impose our moral or political views on anyone.
That's your job, remember?
If Ms. Hoorah wishes to practice as a Priest, let them be a Priest, but psychotherapy is not a front for pretending to be one.

The thread is entitled "Christian Therapists".  Judging from what you say you are able to leave your Christian principles at the front door of the ward or clinic or the hotline helpdesk but obviously other Christians do not do that.  So my question in response to your contribution is valid but you are not the person able to respond to it.
Judging is, as we know, part of your job, so when you say "judging from what you say", you're only doing your job. But a Psychotherapist's job is not to "judge from what people say", nor to impose their moral beliefs on the patient. In order to do this effectively, they must remain value neutral in their therapy, which does not (as many misunderstand) mean that they have no values, but rather, it is a recognition that the expert in a patient's psychological problems is the patient themselves.
If a "Christian Therapist" is required to impose their moral and value system on patients, then they can only treat Christians or those willing to accept Christianity's teaching. Which, as I point out above, is the role of an evangelist, not a Psychotherapist.

 
Because of the serious health problems associated with homosexuality, as stated in the article written by the following Internal Medicine physician, it is my medical and Christian obligation to warn patients about the dangers of practicing homosexuality.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html  

Do you sing this beautiful hymn in the Greek church?  In my “section” of the Orthodox Church, we  sing this ......
"A new commandment I give unto you, that you will love one another, as I have loved you…"(John 13: 34).
 
Loving one another includes trying to protect them from harm.
 

Your medical obligation is to promote what the medical profession  and world health organization recognizes as standard primary health care.
Practicing heterosexuality also has the danger of HIV transmission. Do you warn patients against the dangers of heterosexual sex?
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« Reply #136 on: August 15, 2009, 01:17:37 AM »

Your medical obligation is to promote what the medical profession world health organization recognizes as standard primary health care.
Practicing heterosexuality also has the danger of HIV transmission. Do you warn patients against the dangers of heterosexual sex?

Ms. Hoorah, there are advocacy groups which help parents, families and friends of homosexuals and tend to the mental health needs of homosexuals.

Perhaps, Ms. Hoorah can balance her one-sided perspective on homosexuality.  She can personally believe that homosexuality is immoral; however, as a practitioner, she leaves her moral beliefs at the door unless she works with people who believe in the same faith she has, whatever it may be.
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« Reply #137 on: August 15, 2009, 01:28:45 AM »

unless she works with people who believe in the same faith she has, whatever it may be.
Even in this case, a psychotherapist must remain value-free in their psychotherapy.
Firstly, there is the danger of countertransference.
Secondly, as I pointed out earlier, a psychotherapist is not a minister of religion. Although I am both a Christian and a therapist, I will not treat patients who say they only want to be treated by a "Christian therapist". What they want is a minister of religion, not a therapist, and I refer them there.
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« Reply #138 on: August 15, 2009, 04:51:30 AM »

My dear ozgeorge, I, in all honesty, find it hard to believe, that you really think that a "psychotherapist" is "value-free" or "ideology-free".

 Everything or the majority of the things he does, as commanded by the state, they are based on objective knowledge, according to your view?

An example: Based on the work that you perform, might I ask if you know how did the father of stoicism (a very famous and important philosophy, to which ancient greek philosophy had reached as a peak, before the Greeks were amazed by the truth of Christianity) die? Thank you a prioriSmiley
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« Reply #139 on: August 15, 2009, 08:38:31 AM »

My dear ozgeorge, I, in all honesty, find it hard to believe, that you really think that a "psychotherapist" is "value-free" or "ideology-free".

 Everything or the majority of the things he does, as commanded by the state, they are based on objective knowledge, according to your view?

An example: Based on the work that you perform, might I ask if you know how did the father of stoicism (a very famous and important philosophy, to which ancient greek philosophy had reached as a peak, before the Greeks were amazed by the truth of Christianity) die? Thank you a prioriSmiley

You're obviously not reading what I write.
Lets try again:

. But a Psychotherapist's job is not to "judge from what people say", nor to impose their moral beliefs on the patient. In order to do this effectively, they must remain value neutral in their therapy, which does not (as many misunderstand) mean that they have no values, but rather, it is a recognition that the expert in a patient's psychological problems is the patient themselves.
If a "Christian Therapist" is required to impose their moral and value system on patients, then they can only treat Christians or those willing to accept Christianity's teaching. Which, as I point out above, is the role of an evangelist, not a Psychotherapist.
unless she works with people who believe in the same faith she has, whatever it may be.
Even in this case, a psychotherapist must remain value-free in their psychotherapy.
Firstly, there is the danger of countertransference.
Secondly, as I pointed out earlier, a psychotherapist is not a minister of religion. Although I am both a Christian and a therapist, I will not treat patients who say they only want to be treated by a "Christian therapist". What they want is a minister of religion, not a therapist, and I refer them there.
You wouldn't ask an electrician to do your carpentry, and a carpenter who knows a little about electrical fitting is neither a better carpenter for it, nor the person to get to install your chandelier.

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« Reply #140 on: August 15, 2009, 08:39:06 AM »

My dear ozgeorge, I, in all honesty, find it hard to believe, that you really think that a "psychotherapist" is "value-free" or "ideology-free".

Question: would it be advisable for Christian psychotherapists with moral values which conflict with modern sexual morality to recuse themselves from dealing with mental health consumers whose psychological problems are intertwined with homosexuality?  This, after all, is what Christian doctors and nurses do in the area of abortion.   Otherwise the hypocrisy (sorry to use such a value-laden word :-) of a Christian psychoptherapist going through the motions and acting *as if* he believed in current theories could cause damage to both the client and, over time, to himself.
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« Reply #141 on: August 15, 2009, 08:46:52 AM »

going through the motions and acting *as if* he believed in current theories
How is that being value-neutral in therapy? Pretending to hold values in therapy is the same as holding them and imposing them.
Remember- its your job to judge, not mine.


This, after all, is what Christian doctors and nurses do in the area of abortion.
Why the comparison to doctors excusing themselves from performing abortion? Is it a psychotherapist's job to tell people what to do and how to live or give them a blessing to undertake certain actions? That's the job of a guru or other minister of religion such as yourself; that's not a psychotherapist's job.
This whole thread- indeed the whole concept of "reparative" or "conversion" therapy- exists because you guys (Ms Hoorah included) see no difference between a psychotherapist and a minister of religion- and you just can't get out of that mindset as evidenced by comments like this.
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« Reply #142 on: August 15, 2009, 12:23:59 PM »

unless she works with people who believe in the same faith she has, whatever it may be.
Even in this case, a psychotherapist must remain value-free in their psychotherapy.
Firstly, there is the danger of countertransference.
Secondly, as I pointed out earlier, a psychotherapist is not a minister of religion. Although I am both a Christian and a therapist, I will not treat patients who say they only want to be treated by a "Christian therapist". What they want is a minister of religion, not a therapist, and I refer them there.
You wouldn't ask an electrician to do your carpentry, and a carpenter who knows a little about electrical fitting is neither a better carpenter for it, nor the person to get to install your chandelier.

See reply #105.

ozgeorge,
Perhaps you believe that a mental health therapist should completely disregard, NEVER confront, the source of a paying patient’s dangerous behaviors ...you know, those behaviors that make the client “feel good”.   After all, a smart therapist wouldn’t want to actually do anything to be fired or limit the amount of visits for which he (the therapist) will be reimbursed.   The therapist does need to make his BMW payment.  The therapist has self-esteem needs too, right?..............
 The longer the therapist can make the patient enjoy coming to therapy sessions, the more likely it is that the patient will return to the next session and pay $$$$ for it.   Then the therapist can purchase a new BMW every couple of years.  So not directly confronting the source of the patient’s problem (homosexual lifestyle) IS "therapeutic" but only to the immoral and incompetent therapist.

I wish that such therapists would realize that they could make more money from homosexual patients by helping them explore the billions of other ways to “meet their needs”.  Since there are a billion ways for homosexuals to “meet their needs” besides practicing homosexuality, that would  be a billion therapy appointments for which the incompetent, immoral, non-confrontational therapist could bill the insurance company/ patient, becoming a win-win situation.

Where I practice, at an inpatient facility, I have only weeks to try to protect/teach  patients to avoid the dangerous and sometimes deadly consequences of the homosexual lifestyle and other dangerous lifestyles.  I am a salaried clinician and do not bill patients for appointments.  I grow very attached to many of these individuals and they grow attached to me.  I want them to live happy, healthy lives. I must DIRECTLY confront the source of their mental and physical health problems.  To become or remain mentally and physically healthy, the patient needs to be correctly diagnosed and receive the correct treatment, which includes directly confronting the homosexual lifestyle that is causing their health problems and placing them at risk for more serious health problems. When the patient is discharge, he/she must follow through with their treatment/strategies, one of which is to avoid the homosexual lifestyle.

Please reread the article cited below for a list the mental and physical health risks associated with the homosexuality lifestyle.  If you ask, there are some well-qualified members on this web site that would provide you with a list of the spiritual risks of practicing homosexuality.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html


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« Reply #143 on: August 15, 2009, 03:04:04 PM »

Ms. Hoorah, take a look at the excerpt from the Gay & Lesbian Review:

Quote
... In fact, the market for sexual orientation therapy almost certainly shrinks in direct proportion to social acceptance of gay and lesbian adults and adolescents.  It would probably shrink even further if all therapists and religious counselors who offer therapy for homosexuality were honest with their clients about the likely outcomes. One thing is certain for all ventures in sexual reorientation therapy: it has failed vastly more times than it has ever succeeded, and future research is unlikely to change that fact.

Source
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« Reply #144 on: August 15, 2009, 04:54:15 PM »

I do not disagree with the this journal’s statement.  There are also alcoholics, drug abuser and smokers that are not helped by treatments/therapies.  Does this mean that the APA should declare these treatments/therapies “non-therapeutic” and then label the therapist practicing in these programs to be "abusive"?

Tell me where individuals who WANT to leave the homosexual lifestyle are going to find assistance if therapists, who are willing to do address these issues, are all branded as “abusive” or threatened with malpractice?

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them?  Could they fall into despair?

Is this your belief?  “The treatment is frequently unsuccessful so the patient should just **relax** and enjoy the homosexual lifestyle.  The patient is only neurotic if he/she complains.”

If this is your belief, I thank God that you don't work in any Emergency Room or other forms of health care.
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« Reply #145 on: August 15, 2009, 08:59:39 PM »

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them? 
But there are people to help them. A value neutral psychotherapist is quite capable of journeying with them. But the moment a psychotherapist starts imposing their values on patients they cease being a psychotherapist and become an evangelist.
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« Reply #146 on: August 15, 2009, 10:56:20 PM »

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them? 
But there are people to help them. A value neutral psychotherapist is quite capable of journeying with them. But the moment a psychotherapist starts imposing their values on patients they cease being a psychotherapist and become an evangelist.

I wished this was true.  Many patients do not have thousands of dollars to travel across the USA to locate therapists willing to touch this area. Many patients do not have a spiritiual father or religious leader that has the time, knowledge, experience, or willingness to help them.

Here is the American history on this subject.  Perhaps because you are in Australia or perhaps you are too young to remember when the American Psychiatric Association began to “demonize” the therapists involved in any form of reparative therapy. This started in the 1990s.   Therapists who want to help homosexuals, seeking to exit homosexual lifestyle, are labeled as “abusive”.  This negatively affects their careers, future career choices, ability to publish, their relationship with colleagues and many other areas of their lives.  This “demonizing” also hurts patients wanting to try reparative therapy. The thoughts of wanting to make an appointment with the only doc in a large geographic region, who is labeled as “abusive” but known to try to help homosexuals exit the lifestyle, is emotionally disturbing to patients and their families. The thought of having to move to another area to receive this counseling is also a significant deterrent.

There is always the implication of abuse and/or force whenever reparative therapy is the subject of conversation. This is not the truth. There is no “force” involved in teaching patients how their homosexual lifestyle has directly lead to the specific mental and physical health problems known to occur with increased frequency in homosexuals.   There is no “force" involved with discussing strategies to help  individuals  practice celibacy and avoid situations where they might not be able to control their “passions”.  These patients are neither chemically/ physically restrained nor locked in seclusion rooms during counseling.  ALL  patients in any form of reparative therapy are there VOLUNTARILY.

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« Reply #147 on: August 15, 2009, 11:05:07 PM »

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them? 
But there are people to help them. A value neutral psychotherapist is quite capable of journeying with them. But the moment a psychotherapist starts imposing their values on patients they cease being a psychotherapist and become an evangelist.

I wished this was true.  Many patients do not have thousands of dollars to travel across the USA to locate therapists willing to touch this area.
But it is true. If psychotherapists all keep within the standard practices of psychotherapy by remaining value neutral in therapy, then any therapist can provide this service. It is those claiming to be "therapists" but who impose their value systems on patients that cause damage to my profession, destroy it's credibility, and do damage to patients.

Many patients do not have a spiritiual father or religious leader that has the time, knowledge, experience, or willingness to help them.
I'm not sure how many times or how many different ways I have to say this. A psychotherapist is not a substitute for a Spiritual Father or religious leader. If you want to practice as a Spiritual Father or religious leader, you are free to do so, but you are not free to do so under the guise of "psychotherapy".
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« Reply #148 on: August 15, 2009, 11:33:39 PM »

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them? 
But there are people to help them. A value neutral psychotherapist is quite capable of journeying with them. But the moment a psychotherapist starts imposing their values on patients they cease being a psychotherapist and become an evangelist.

I wished this was true.  Many patients do not have thousands of dollars to travel across the USA to locate therapists willing to touch this area.
But it is true. If psychotherapists all keep within the standard practices of psychotherapy by remaining value neutral in therapy, then any therapist can provide this service. It is those claiming to be "therapists" but who impose their value systems on patients that cause damage to my profession, destroy it's credibility, and do damage to patients.

Many patients do not have a spiritiual father or religious leader that has the time, knowledge, experience, or willingness to help them.
I'm not sure how many times or how many different ways I have to say this. A psychotherapist is not a substitute for a Spiritual Father or religious leader. If you want to practice as a Spiritual Father or religious leader, you are free to do so, but you are not free to do so under the guise of "psychotherapy".

Did you read my last post or are you so interested in continuing to imply that I am a bad clinician that you CANNOT read it?
I will make this post shorter.  There are not many therapist available in American willing to help homosexuals, that want to leave the homosexual lifestyle, because they have been "demonized". 

Perhaps you are having some transference issues.
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« Reply #149 on: August 15, 2009, 11:40:28 PM »

I do not disagree with the this journal’s statement.  There are also alcoholics, drug abuser and smokers that are not helped by treatments/therapies.  Does this mean that the APA should declare these treatments/therapies “non-therapeutic” and then label the therapist practicing in these programs to be "abusive"?

12 step programs aren't therapies.  I've never heard of a 12 step program for homosexuals.  While people have benefited from AA and NA, many others haven't.  I've known of persons who have relapsed numerous times.  If one falls down, get up and start all over again.

Tell me where individuals who WANT to leave the homosexual lifestyle are going to find assistance if therapists, who are willing to do address these issues, are all branded as “abusive” or threatened with malpractice?

If a homosexual wants to stop being a homosexual, they can stop having homosexual sex.  Who needs a therapist to stop having any kind of sex.   Smiley

I've posted two examples from a therapy website.  Focus on the second example and ask yourself whether or not you would follow a similar protocol.

Quote
Donald, 47, is anxious and depressed. He drinks alcohol to soothe himself. He has never had a serious girlfriend though he is intelligent, fine looking, and financially stable. The therapist’s questions about his romantic desires seem to cause Donald some embarrassments, and the therapist gently inquires further. Donald reveals tremendous feelings of shame about sexual feelings, which are traced to a strict religious background and two disturbing experiences in which Donald witnessed, as a child, another boy being molested by a teacher. Therapy helps Donald overcome his shame and fear and slowly begin to accept sexuality as a normal, healthy part of life. This leads to diminished anxiety and an improved social life.

Missy, 34, enters therapy because she is having attractions to women. She reports being happily married to a man, and is at various times ashamed, excited, confused, anxious, and overwhelmed by these new attractions. She is not sure whether to tell her husband, act on the impulses secretly, or try to engage her husband in “some kind of arrangement,” which she is “sure” he would like but may not be her “cup of tea.” Therapy helps Missy examine her feelings, the possible choices before her, and the best ways of communicating with her husband, whom she decides to tell. She and her husband talk about her attractions, and he is neither judgmental nor perverse. Missy and her husband come to no conclusion about how best to handle Missy’s attractions, but their relationship feels stronger to both of them for having had the conversation, and they both express confidence that their marriage can sustain any possible future.

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them?  Could they fall into despair?

I can't answer the bolded question for I'm not a homosexual. 

I view homosexuality as no different from adultery.  Both involve choices.  Because science has allegedly found genetic links to homosexuality, science wants us to believe that being gay is no different from having a mental illness, having blue eyes, being 4'-6" or 8'-6".  Yet, the Judeo-Christian moral code has declared homosexual behavior anathema.  I can't choose to be 4'-6" or have Down's Syndrome (note, I'm neither 4'-6" nor have Down's Syndrome) but I can choose whether or not I want to be intimate with a man based on my Orthodox Christian moral system and my dislike for being intimate with men....

Is this your belief?  “The treatment is frequently unsuccessful so the patient should just **relax** and enjoy the homosexual lifestyle.  The patient is only neurotic if he/she complains.”

I've never encountered neurotic behavior in the homosexuals that I know.  That is their business, not mine.

If this is your belief, I thank God that you don't work in any Emergency Room or other forms of health care.

Was that directed at me?  What is that supposed to mean?   Huh
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« Reply #150 on: August 15, 2009, 11:48:22 PM »

Did you read my last post or are you so interested in continuing to imply that I am a bad clinician that you CANNOT read it?

I believe you are a good clinician who tries to do the best for her clients.

I will make this post shorter.  There are not many therapist available in American willing to help homosexuals, that want to leave the homosexual lifestyle, because they have been "demonized". 

Take a look at the list below and see if you violated some of these warning signs (especially the bolded ones) in dealing with your clients, regardless of sexual orientation....

50 Warning Signs of Questionable Therapy

Quote
6.Therapist makes guarantees and/or promises.
11.Counselor blames your family, friends, or partner.
12.Counselor encourages you to blame your family, friends, or partner.

23.Therapist focuses extensively on diagnosing without also helping you to change.
29.Therapist acts as if she has the answers or solutions to everything and spends time telling you how to best fix or change things.
31.Therapist encourages your dependency by allowing you to get your emotional needs meet from the therapist. Therapist “feeds you fish, rather than helping you to fish for yourself.”
32.Counselor tries to keep you in therapy against your will.
33.Therapist believes that only their counseling approach works and ridicules other approaches to therapy.
40.Therapist tries to push spirituality or religion on to you.
41.Counselor does not empathize.
42.Therapist empathizes too much.
43.Counselor seems overwhelmed with your problems
44.Therapist seems over-emotional, affected, or triggered by your feelings or issues.
45.Counselor pushes you into highly vulnerable feelings or memories.

Edited to correct word choice.
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« Reply #151 on: August 15, 2009, 11:50:08 PM »

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them? 
But there are people to help them. A value neutral psychotherapist is quite capable of journeying with them. But the moment a psychotherapist starts imposing their values on patients they cease being a psychotherapist and become an evangelist.

I wished this was true.  Many patients do not have thousands of dollars to travel across the USA to locate therapists willing to touch this area.
But it is true. If psychotherapists all keep within the standard practices of psychotherapy by remaining value neutral in therapy, then any therapist can provide this service. It is those claiming to be "therapists" but who impose their value systems on patients that cause damage to my profession, destroy it's credibility, and do damage to patients.

Many patients do not have a spiritiual father or religious leader that has the time, knowledge, experience, or willingness to help them.
I'm not sure how many times or how many different ways I have to say this. A psychotherapist is not a substitute for a Spiritual Father or religious leader. If you want to practice as a Spiritual Father or religious leader, you are free to do so, but you are not free to do so under the guise of "psychotherapy".

Is your frequent statement that I am trying to be a priest or evangelist another strategy taught by the gay/lesbian alliances to combat the “Religious Wrong”?  Is this supposed to make me ignore the dangerous mental and physical health risks of homosexual patients so I will never discuss this with them?  I haven’t followed the gay/lesbian strategies closely but I did find that one article about how effective it is to play on the compassion of non-homosexual supporters, which followed closely to your accusations that I killed suicidal homosexuals.  I am going to investigate this strategy tomorrow after Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #152 on: August 16, 2009, 12:00:36 AM »

You do that.
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« Reply #153 on: August 16, 2009, 12:07:20 AM »

Good resource. Thanks!
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« Reply #154 on: August 16, 2009, 12:09:41 AM »

Is your frequent statement that I am trying to be a priest or evangelist another strategy taught by the gay/lesbian alliances to combat the “Religious Wrong”? 
No. It is simply explaining to you what psychotherapy is as compared to being a spiritual father, guru, minister, etc. and pointing out that they are not the same professions. You are the one who suggested that psychotherapists can substitute for religious leaders and spiritual fathers, and I keep pointing out to you that they cannot.
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« Reply #155 on: August 16, 2009, 03:39:38 AM »

Ozgeorge, I am facing a dilemma whether I should let everything be as your granted-by-God freedom implements them or I should annihilate the fallacies you seem to express.  Cheesy  Smiley
There can never be any therapy of the psyche(psyche stems from the greek word ψυχή, which means the soul, btw) without counselling taking under(is this the correct word? Smiley ) a certain behaviour. It might mean changing your perspective on things, on human relations, on the formation of your train of thoughts, etc. As Elder Sergios of Paris said, according to Jean Claude Larchet's book, a (secular)"psychiatrist" could (possibly) help you with all these, but "in the end he leaves you empty", and he meant without the filling the existential void(a key-term in existentialist psychology, as is the one of Frankl). But, he continued, a priest and only a priest does this and, consequently, he is and must be a psychiatrist, because spirituality implicates everything and thus a spiritual act(Sacrament) heals. Finally, he notes that all the so-called "psychological problems" stem from egoism(exactly the same that Elder Porphyrios says, btw) and NOT, as Freud(whose work he had studied a lot) taught, sexuality.

I'd need pages to note down what needs to be noted, of course...  Smiley

Let's just say that a psychiatrist is exactly a secular priest. And this is why the "Great French Revolution" had programmed to replace every temple with a hospital. It didn't manage to do it, but it managed to push the Church's truth to the margin of social life. This all could be compatible with RC's theory of God's limited intevention in the human soul, but it is totally inconsistent with the Orthodoxy's view of God taking everything within the human soul, from emotions to passions, in order not to destroy it but to transform it. This is the "classic" theology of Hesychast St. Gregory Palamas, btw.  Wink
In Christ,
philalethe00.
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« Reply #156 on: August 16, 2009, 04:23:45 AM »

Philalethe00,

You are looking at the issue of what constitutes psychotherapy theologically, and specifically from an Orthodox Christian theological perspective.
Firstly, why should Psychologists even care what Elder Sergios of Paris says about psychology or psychiatry? He is entitled to his opinion as an Orthodox Priest and is even entitled as a representative of the Orthodox Church to direct his followers to seek psychiatric help from Priests instead of psychiatrists or psychologists (as indeed he does in the above quote). But that has nothing to do with me or my profession. That is exactly my point. A psychotherapist is not a substitute for a Priest- I don't know how many times I have to tell you on this thread before you finally get it.  If you wish to have an "Elder" or a "guru" and obey them unquestioningly thats fine. If you want your Priest to tell you how to live and give you a blessing to clear your throat- more power to you! But that has nothing to do with the job of a psychotherapist any more than beekeeping has anything to do with electrical engineering.
And it works the other way, A Priest cannot be a psychiatrist. Can Priests prescribe psychotropic medications? Can Priests administer Cognitive Functioning tests? Can Priests assess patients for Mental Disorders?
That's the first point. The second point is this: there is no such thing as a "secular Priest" (as you suggest there is). A psychotherapist can only have one type of relationship with their patient- that of therapist/client. It is not only unethical, but a breach of practice to have any other type of relationship with a patient. Thus, for example, I cannot treat members of my family or my friends. I cannot have the relationship of a friend/friend with my patients. The relationship of a Priest/Minister/Guru to his Parishoners/Followers/CultMembers is not the relationship of a Psychotherapist to a patient. The psychotherapeutic relationship has a limited life- it must end when the therapy is complete. A Priest/guru's relationship with their patient does not end, and what's more, it is unethical for someone's Priest to be their Psychotherapist or vice versa since this would necessarily constitute a second type of relationship in Psychotherapy.

Psychology does not have theosis or salvation or nirvana as its goal- how can it possibly be the same relationship as that of a Spiritual Guide?
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« Reply #157 on: August 16, 2009, 05:10:44 AM »

a priest and only a priest does this and, consequently, he is and must be a psychiatrist,

Oh, I think we've seen the results of believing that "priests and only priests are psychiatrists":

Quote

Crucified nun dies in 'exorcism'

18 June, 2005

A Romanian nun has died after being bound to a cross, gagged and left alone for three days in a cold room in a convent, Romanian police have said.
Members of the convent in north-east Romania claim Maricica Irina Cornici was possessed and that the crucifixion had been part of an exorcism ritual.
Cornici was found dead on the cross on Wednesday after fellow nuns called an ambulance, according to police.
A priest and four nuns were charged with imprisonment leading to death.
Police say the 23-year-old nun, who was denied food and drink throughout her ordeal, had been tied and chained to the cross and a towel pushed into her mouth to smother any sounds.
A post-mortem is to be carried out, although initial reports say that Cornici died from asphyxiation.
I don't understand why journalists are making such a fuss about this
Local media reports that the young woman had arrived at the remote convent three months before, having initially gone there to visit a friend and opted to stay.
She grew up in an orphanage in Arad, in the west of Romania.
Mediafax news agency said Cornici suffered from schizophrenia and the symptoms of her condition caused the priest at the convent and other nuns to believe she was possessed by the devil.
"They all said she was possessed and they were trying to cast out the evil spirits," police spokeswoman Michaela Straub said.

Father Daniel who is accused of orchestrating the crime is said to be unrepentant.
"God has performed a miracle for her, finally Irina is delivered from evil," AFP quoted the priest as saying.
"I don't understand why journalists are making such a fuss about this. Exorcism is a common practice in the heart of the Romanian Orthodox church and my methods are not at all unknown to other priests," Father Daniel added.
If found guilty of killing Cornici, Father Daniel and the accused nuns could face 20 years in jail.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107524.stm

Well, the good Priest got only 14 years in the end, not the full 20:

Quote
Romanian Priest Convicted Over Nun's Exorcism Death
February 19, 2007

A Romanian Orthodox priest and four nuns were sentenced to prison on Monday for their roles in the death of a 23-year-old nun in a crucifixion exorcism ritual in the cellar of a church.
23-year-old Sister Maricica Irina Conici died in June 2005 after spending three days tied to a cross with no food or water during an exorcism ritual designed to cleanse her of the evil spirits the priest and nuns believed possessed her. Conici survived several days without food or water, but died of dehydration, exhaustion and suffocation.
The court sentenced Daniel Petru Corogeanu, a monk who served as the priest for the convent in the northeast city of Vaslui, to 14 years in prison. Prosecutors had sought to convict Corogeanu of aggravated murder with cruel intent, which carried with it a life sentence.
According to the report, one of the nuns, the church's mother superior Nicoleta Arcalianu, was sentenced to eight years in prison, while the other three-Adina Cepraga, Elena Otel and Simona Bardanas-received five-year sentences each.
After the sentences were handed down, lawyers for the defendants said the prison sentences were too harsh and said they planned to appeal the verdict.
Source: http://www.wayodd.com/romanian-priest-convicted-over-nuns-exorcism-death/v/6430/
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« Reply #158 on: August 16, 2009, 05:36:58 AM »

@ozgeorge
You shouldn't lose your patience on this. Things are simple enough and I will summarize:

First, we should be against psychotropic medications, which have been proven(I'm skipping the moral part) dangerous and, at least, "doing more harm than good" time and time again. They poison the body, create biochemical imbalances etc.
Second, mental disorders are not objective. That's why homosexuality and masturbation and drapetomania and hysteria in its feminist sense were considered serious diseases before.Christianity has its own perception, demonology if you will, of mental diseases(for example, akedia and athymia, there are categories of demons causing these sentiments). Elder Porphyrios has referred to this with a lot of "holy anger" and it wasn't his character...  Wink Smiley
Third, we are not talking about exorcism, for God's sake...! Exorcism is used ONLY when a human is possessed by an evil spirit, which constitutes the maximum of influence that can be caused to someone by these spirits. But the man that secular schools of thought define as mentally ill, is having a demonic OUTER influence on him.This influence goes away through Sacraments and other means, even through only prayer, and forever, because it is but a kind of temptation.

Still, as I have said, even though I would never become a "psychotherapist" of course, it's not, imho, harmful to people for them to exist. They can lead faithless or of little faith people to some path that is better than the one they are following. I have to say, though, that I would prefer philosophical counsellors.  Wink Smiley


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« Reply #159 on: August 16, 2009, 06:01:24 AM »

You shouldn't lose your patience on this.
Do you think I have lost my patience? I've been responding to questions and comments on this thread for days now. The evidence seems to suggest other than what you believe to be true.

Things are simple enough and I will summarize:
Okie Dokie.


First, we should be against psychotropic medications, which have been proven(I'm skipping the moral part) dangerous and, at least, "doing more harm than good" time and time again. They poison the body, create biochemical imbalances etc.
You are, of course, entitled to your religious beliefs. And that's all they will ever remain.


Second, mental disorders are not objective.
Aren't they? Then why must criteria clearly be met in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual or WHO criteria to justify a diagnosis?

That's why homosexuality and masturbation and drapetomania and hysteria in its feminist sense were considered serious diseases before.Christianity has its own perception, demonology if you will, of mental diseases(for example, akedia and athymia, there are categories of demons causing these sentiments). Elder Porphyrios has referred to this with a lot of "holy anger" and it wasn't his character...  Wink Smiley
Mmmm, well we also thought the world was flat and the sun revolved around it. And Christians can think Mental Illnesses are caused by demons and work on that theory as much as they want. Psychiatry has other theories.

Third, we are not talking about exorcism, for God's sake...! Exorcism is used ONLY when a human is possessed by an evil spirit, which constisutes the maximum of influence that can be caused to someone by these spirits. But the man that secular schools of thought define as mentally ill, is having a demonic OUTER influence on him.This influence goes away through Sacraments and other means, even through only prayer.
I see. So my patients with Schizophrenia, Bipolar Affective Disorder, and Panic Disorder should all give up their medications and pop round to you guys to say some prayers over them. Uh huh.

till, as I have said, even though I would never become a "psychotherapist" of course, it's not, imho, harmful to people for them to exist. They can lead faithless or of little faith people to some path that is better than the one they are following. I have to say, though, that I would prefer philosophical counsellors.  Wink Smiley
Thats a bit self-contradictory. On the one hand you say that Mental Illness is caused by demons and that psychotropic medication does more harm than good, and on the other you say psychiatrists who prescribe psychotropics and do not believe mental illness to be caused by demons do no harm. Make your mind up.

You told me what you believe, now let me tell you what I believe. Mental Illness is not "caused by demons" as you say. This is incorrect from both a psychiatric and Orthodox theological perspective. To suggest, for example, that demons can cause alterations in the serotonin or dopamine levels in the brain to create Bipolar Affective Disorder or Schizophrenia places demons on the same level as God and means that our infinitely loving and merciful God allows demons to cause chemical imbalances in people's brains so that their minds become a harrowing Hell of delusions and hallucinations, or so that their mood swings rapidly and violently from uncontrollable mania to life-threatening depression. And why does God allow this? Well, according to you, its so they will seek out an Orthodox Priest to minister to them.  I don't buy it, but you are free to believe whatever you want. Is asthma caused by demons? Are congenital abnormalities caused by demons? Is influenza caused by demons? If illnesses of the body are not caused by demons, why are diseases of the brain (which after all, is just another organ of the body) caused by demons? Why are demons only allowed to affect one organ and not the others?
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« Reply #160 on: August 16, 2009, 07:53:14 AM »

Ozgeorge..I am amazed you continue to post on this thread...give it up my dear friend...they are not reading your posts.
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« Reply #161 on: August 16, 2009, 07:57:08 AM »

Ozgeorge..I am amazed you continue to post on this thread...give it up my dear friend...they are not reading your posts.

Oh I think they're reading them, and watching the responses is amusing me. I present arguments as to why psychotherapy must be value-neutral and is not a substitute for guru's, Priests, religious leaders etc and the responses are emotional diatribes and shamanist beliefs that mental illness is caused by demons.
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« Reply #162 on: August 16, 2009, 08:07:38 AM »

I understand..religion and science has always been a bad mix
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« Reply #163 on: August 16, 2009, 08:23:03 AM »

I understand..religion and science has always been a bad mix
This hasn't always been the case. For instance, the existence of hospitals is owed to St. Basil the Great.
Religion and Science just need to regain their healthy respect for one another again and remember what is the domain of each. A psychologist is not a priest nor vice versa.
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« Reply #164 on: August 16, 2009, 08:50:38 AM »

I agree..unfortunately we have no St.Basil's today...we just have people who want to impose their values on others rather than be an Icon of Christ and SHOW those values to the world.
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« Reply #165 on: August 16, 2009, 04:40:56 PM »

Quote
You are, of course, entitled to your religious beliefs. And that's all they will ever remain.
False.  Smiley There are a great deal of courageous "psychiatrists" and scientists -it seems you have never read any antipsychiatrist book, and this harms and limits your scientific perspective- that have proven this. I am able to give you a lot of bibliographic references about this.

Quote
Then why must criteria clearly be met in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual or WHO criteria to justify a diagnosis?
We both know, I hope, that these criteria are ehm, made up by voting processes. I adore democracy, but a disease is defined by autopsy, not voting. It's a purely theoretical construction. And, unfortunately, "DSM", according to a Freud's epistle, has borrowed heavily from "Malleus Maleficarum" .
Let me give you another example:Karl Marx as a sociologist has given to the world certain criteria according to which something is proletarian or lumpen-proletarian or petit-bourgeois or bourgeois. Why don't we adhere to these? It's all scientific!  Roll Eyes Smiley

Quote
I see. So my patients with Schizophrenia, Bipolar Affective Disorder, and Panic Disorder should all give up their medications and pop round to you guys to say some prayers over them. Uh huh.
There is the "drawback effect", I wouldn't suggest it. Moreover, the pharmaceutical industry, from en economist perspective, would be extremely distressed...  Cheesy You know (or maybe you don't know), my friend, Elder Porphyrios, who knew things about medical science and revealed them to doctors and made charismatic diagnoses and so forth used to say that "psychological illness is the easiest to cure". And he had cured hundreds and thousands himself, sometimes just through consulting. But it's the conventional wisdom.. Who dares to think beyond it?


Quote
Thats a bit self-contradictory. On the one hand you say that Mental Illness is caused by demons and that psychotropic medication does more harm than good, and on the other you say psychiatrists who prescribe psychotropics and do not believe mental illness to be caused by demons do no harm. Make your mind up.
It's quite obvious that I'm referring to psychiatrists of ALL schools of thought.


Quote
To suggest, for example, that demons can cause alterations in the serotonin or dopamine levels in the brain to create Bipolar Affective Disorder or Schizophrenia places demons
I' m sorry, but this is not a scientific theory. It's pure biopsychiatry or the marketing campaign of pharmaceutical industry. Thirty or forty years ago, the "professionals" used to tell them that they have to look to their dreams, in order to understand their subconscious, and to their possibly traumatic past in order to heal them. It was the freudist orthodoxy which has been so discredited now. And, as I've said before, these neurotransmitters have and could logically have nothing to do with causing happiness or whatever. Neurotransmitters(and we don't know but a few of them) are useful in transimitting the neural signal. The rest is pure speculation that is, nevertheless, very useful in business, in what we economics University students would call antimarketing and, of course, opinion-making. Smiley

Quote
Is asthma caused by demons?
Usually no, asthma is indeed a disease, which means a malfunction of an organ of the human body.
"Psychological diseases", on the other hand, have nothing to do with malfunctions of the human brain. This could only be stated by the psychologists who don't accept the existence of the non-material soul of our times. God lets demons act and cause athymia or akedia or adultery or whatever, because we are free to reject Him and because demons are free. The battery of our soul can be filled either ways, as Elder Porphyrios said, and it would be authoritarian of God not to let us choose. 

Thank you for the conversation, it's been very substantial, I just hope it had taken place at another thread.  Smiley I hope God illumines us all in his mysterious ways in order to help the needy brethren.  Wink Smiley
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« Reply #166 on: August 16, 2009, 09:28:03 PM »

Quote
You are, of course, entitled to your religious beliefs. And that's all they will ever remain.
False. 
That's right. Your religious beliefs are false.

Quote
Then why must criteria clearly be met in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual or WHO criteria to justify a diagnosis?
We both know, I hope, that these criteria are ehm, made up by voting processes.
Are they now? Seems that your religious beliefs are not the only beliefs you whave which are false.

Quote
I see. So my patients with Schizophrenia, Bipolar Affective Disorder, and Panic Disorder should all give up their medications and pop round to you guys to say some prayers over them. Uh huh.
There is the "drawback effect", I wouldn't suggest it. Moreover, the pharmaceutical industry, from en economist perspective, would be extremely distressed...  Cheesy You know (or maybe you don't know), my friend, Elder Porphyrios, who knew things about medical science and revealed them to doctors and made charismatic diagnoses and so forth used to say that "psychological illness is the easiest to cure". And he had cured hundreds and thousands himself, sometimes just through consulting. But it's the conventional wisdom.. Who dares to think beyond it?
Right. So all patients on psychotropic medications should pop round to your shamans in Greece for the cure and give up their medications.

Quote
Thats a bit self-contradictory. On the one hand you say that Mental Illness is caused by demons and that psychotropic medication does more harm than good, and on the other you say psychiatrists who prescribe psychotropics and do not believe mental illness to be caused by demons do no harm. Make your mind up.
It's quite obvious that I'm referring to psychiatrists of ALL schools of thought.
Yes, it is quite obvious that you think that the "evil spirit theory of mental illness" is correct and that psychotropic medication does more harm than good (your words). So, how come in your strange world view, psychiatrists who prescribe psychotropic medications are not doing more harm than good?

Quote
To suggest, for example, that demons can cause alterations in the serotonin or dopamine levels in the brain to create Bipolar Affective Disorder or Schizophrenia places demons
I' m sorry, but this is not a scientific theory. It's pure biopsychiatry or the marketing campaign of pharmaceutical industry.
I see. Its a conspiracy. Roll Eyes

Thirty or forty years ago, the "professionals" used to tell them that they have to look to their dreams, in order to understand their subconscious, and to their possibly traumatic past in order to heal them.
Actually no, thats not true. But at any rate, 30 or 40 years ago the dangers of smoking were not understood. 30 or 40 years ago there was no internet for you to have a soapbox for you "evil spirit theory of mental illness". You see, science advances as more knowledge is gained. You, however, are still stuck in a primitive belief system which allows you to believe that illness is caused by evil spirits.

It was the freudist orthodoxy which has been so discredited now.
Is it now? Perhaps it would help if you told us what "freudist orthodoxy" is before making the claim that it is "discredited".

And, as I've said before, these neurotransmitters have and could logically have nothing to do with causing happiness or whatever. Neurotransmitters(and we don't know but a few of them) are useful in transimitting the neural signal. The rest is pure speculation
I see. Well perhaps in the school of economics you don't actually get much of a chance to study the research into neurotransmitters, but its there, and its science (no matter how much you shut your eyes, plug your ears and go "La, la, la, la, la,...."

that is, nevertheless, very useful in business, in what we economics University students would call antimarketing and, of course, opinion-making.
Oh, most definitely. The whole MDMA (Ecstasy) market depends on the fact that MDMA is able to increase Serotonin levels, and SSRI's do the same. Strange how they work on neurotransmitters and not demons.

Quote
Is asthma caused by demons?
Usually no, asthma is indeed a disease, which means a malfunction of an organ of the human body.
"Psychological diseases", on the other hand, have nothing to do with malfunctions of the human brain. 
I see. Psychological diseases are caused by evil spirits. The only protection is a blue glass bead.
Why then do medications which alter serotonin or dopamine levels in the brain work to alleviate psychosis, depression and mania? Are they actually "holy substances" which "control the evil spirits"? Or perhaps the evil spirits just want us to think they work because they are in cahoots with the pharmaceutical companies?
Why is a physical illness an illness but a mental illness not an illness? Where do thoughts and emotions come from if not the brain, and what is the brain other than an organ of the body?
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« Reply #167 on: August 16, 2009, 09:53:59 PM »



Stay away from us, OzGeorge!  Cheesy
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« Reply #168 on: August 16, 2009, 11:43:54 PM »

My shared sentiments with a devout servant of God:

“Sometimes it seems like I’m on an atheist discussion board rather than an Orthodox one.  It is really a shame that some who profess Orthodoxy seek to eradicated God.  How can the mind be healthy if the mind is not attuned to Our Lord?”

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« Reply #169 on: August 17, 2009, 12:37:18 AM »

Quote
Actually no, thats not true. But at any rate, 30 or 40 years ago the dangers of smoking were not understood.

Allow me to blow a hole in this shibboleth:

1. The first warning against the dangers of smoking was first expressed by the US Surgeon-General as far back as 1948.

2. Surely you would be aware, ozgeorge, working in a healthrelated field as you do, that the first comprehensive anti-smoking advertisements in your country were aired on radio and television in 1974. Health warnings on cigarette packets were first introduced at the same time. As I understand it, one of the components of the original 1974 television ads still forms part of the current anti-smoking campaign on Australian television, i.e. that of the sponge being wrung out of the gunk absorbed by a smoker's lungs. Still gruesome and effective after 35 years.  The warnings on cigarette packets have also become far more graphic. Tongue

You'll have to find a better analogy, my friend.  Wink


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« Reply #170 on: August 17, 2009, 01:05:09 AM »

You'll have to find a better analogy, my friend.  Wink
Well, actually, you need to find a better analogy if you read this thread.
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« Reply #171 on: August 17, 2009, 02:22:44 AM »

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them? 
But there are people to help them. A value neutral psychotherapist is quite capable of journeying with them. But the moment a psychotherapist starts imposing their values on patients they cease being a psychotherapist and become an evangelist.

I wished this was true.  Many patients do not have thousands of dollars to travel across the USA to locate therapists willing to touch this area.
But it is true. If psychotherapists all keep within the standard practices of psychotherapy by remaining value neutral in therapy, then any therapist can provide this service. It is those claiming to be "therapists" but who impose their value systems on patients that cause damage to my profession, destroy it's credibility, and do damage to patients.

Many patients do not have a spiritiual father or religious leader that has the time, knowledge, experience, or willingness to help them.
I'm not sure how many times or how many different ways I have to say this. A psychotherapist is not a substitute for a Spiritual Father or religious leader. If you want to practice as a Spiritual Father or religious leader, you are free to do so, but you are not free to do so under the guise of "psychotherapy".

Is your frequent statement that I am trying to be a priest or evangelist another strategy taught by the gay/lesbian alliances to combat the “Religious Wrong”?  Is this supposed to make me ignore the dangerous mental and physical health risks of homosexual patients so I will never discuss this with them?  I haven’t followed the gay/lesbian strategies closely but I did find that one article about how effective it is to play on the compassion of non-homosexual supporters, which followed closely to your accusations that I killed suicidal homosexuals.  I am going to investigate this strategy tomorrow after Divine Liturgy.


Here it is. Thank you for your encouragement, ozgeorge.

Another gay/lesbian strategy, to combat the "Religious Wrong", is to profess that psychotherapists should be the only clinicians to treat mental health issues. “Psychotherapy should only be left to the professionals.” This strategy is utilized because psychotherapy treatments are defined by state law and professional associations (like the APA).  Clergy, not confined by many of the same laws and interventions, are free to address and treat without the constraints of the laws/interventions for which the homosexuals LOBBIED, PASSED, and ENFORCE.   Homosexuals lobby and enforce (professionally marginalize “dissenters” see post #146) psychotherapists and their professional organization to declare that the homosexuality lifestyle is not treatable and never needs treatment .....especially from clergy who are not "controlled" by the them.

Drescher, Jack and Kenneth Zucker.  Ex-Gay Research:  Analyzing the Spitzer Study and Its Relation to ‘Science, Religion, Politics, and Culture. !st ed. Binghamton, NY 2006.

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« Reply #172 on: August 17, 2009, 02:24:58 AM »

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them? 
But there are people to help them. A value neutral psychotherapist is quite capable of journeying with them. But the moment a psychotherapist starts imposing their values on patients they cease being a psychotherapist and become an evangelist.

I wished this was true.  Many patients do not have thousands of dollars to travel across the USA to locate therapists willing to touch this area.
But it is true. If psychotherapists all keep within the standard practices of psychotherapy by remaining value neutral in therapy, then any therapist can provide this service. It is those claiming to be "therapists" but who impose their value systems on patients that cause damage to my profession, destroy it's credibility, and do damage to patients.

Many patients do not have a spiritiual father or religious leader that has the time, knowledge, experience, or willingness to help them.
I'm not sure how many times or how many different ways I have to say this. A psychotherapist is not a substitute for a Spiritual Father or religious leader. If you want to practice as a Spiritual Father or religious leader, you are free to do so, but you are not free to do so under the guise of "psychotherapy".

Is your frequent statement that I am trying to be a priest or evangelist another strategy taught by the gay/lesbian alliances to combat the “Religious Wrong”?  Is this supposed to make me ignore the dangerous mental and physical health risks of homosexual patients so I will never discuss this with them?  I haven’t followed the gay/lesbian strategies closely but I did find that one article about how effective it is to play on the compassion of non-homosexual supporters, which followed closely to your accusations that I killed suicidal homosexuals.  I am going to investigate this strategy tomorrow after Divine Liturgy.


Here it is. Thank you for your encouragement, ozgeorge.

Another gay/lesbian strategy, to combat the "Religious Wrong", is to profess that psychotherapists should be the only clinicians to treat mental health issues. “Psychotherapy should only be left to the professionals.” This strategy is utilized because psychotherapy treatments are defined by state law and professional associations (like the APA).  Clergy, not confined by many of the same laws and interventions, are free to address and treat without the constraints of the laws/interventions for which the homosexuals LOBBIED, PASSED, and ENFORCE.   Homosexuals lobby and enforce (professionally marginalize “dissenters” see post #146) psychotherapists and their professional organization to declare that the homosexuality lifestyle is not treatable and never needs treatment .....especially from clergy who are not "controlled" by the them.

Drescher, Jack and Kenneth Zucker.  Ex-Gay Research:  Analyzing the Spitzer Study and Its Relation to ‘Science, Religion, Politics, and Culture. !st ed. Binghamton, NY 2006.



So is this thread about your political beliefs and why you feel they are under siege?
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« Reply #173 on: August 17, 2009, 02:55:07 AM »

Why has it taken the American Psychological Association, Exodus International six years to compose and publish a report on reparative therapy?
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« Reply #174 on: August 17, 2009, 06:28:04 AM »

The sad news is that many therapists did not take reparative therapy seriously as it was seen as part of th evangelical christian culture,which of coarse it is.I do not know of any Orthodox psychologists active in this movement. It was taken seriously after many therapists saw the heartache it was causing.
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« Reply #175 on: August 17, 2009, 10:36:53 AM »

Tell me what will happen emotionally to individuals WANTING to exit the homosexual lifestyle if there is no one to help them? 
But there are people to help them. A value neutral psychotherapist is quite capable of journeying with them. But the moment a psychotherapist starts imposing their values on patients they cease being a psychotherapist and become an evangelist.

I wished this was true.  Many patients do not have thousands of dollars to travel across the USA to locate therapists willing to touch this area.
But it is true. If psychotherapists all keep within the standard practices of psychotherapy by remaining value neutral in therapy, then any therapist can provide this service. It is those claiming to be "therapists" but who impose their value systems on patients that cause damage to my profession, destroy it's credibility, and do damage to patients.

Many patients do not have a spiritiual father or religious leader that has the time, knowledge, experience, or willingness to help them.
I'm not sure how many times or how many different ways I have to say this. A psychotherapist is not a substitute for a Spiritual Father or religious leader. If you want to practice as a Spiritual Father or religious leader, you are free to do so, but you are not free to do so under the guise of "psychotherapy".

Is your frequent statement that I am trying to be a priest or evangelist another strategy taught by the gay/lesbian alliances to combat the “Religious Wrong”?  Is this supposed to make me ignore the dangerous mental and physical health risks of homosexual patients so I will never discuss this with them?  I haven’t followed the gay/lesbian strategies closely but I did find that one article about how effective it is to play on the compassion of non-homosexual supporters, which followed closely to your accusations that I killed suicidal homosexuals.  I am going to investigate this strategy tomorrow after Divine Liturgy.


Here it is. Thank you for your encouragement, ozgeorge.

Another gay/lesbian strategy, to combat the "Religious Wrong", is to profess that psychotherapists should be the only clinicians to treat mental health issues. “Psychotherapy should only be left to the professionals.” This strategy is utilized because psychotherapy treatments are defined by state law and professional associations (like the APA).  Clergy, not confined by many of the same laws and interventions, are free to address and treat without the constraints of the laws/interventions for which the homosexuals LOBBIED, PASSED, and ENFORCE.   Homosexuals lobby and enforce (professionally marginalize “dissenters” see post #146) psychotherapists and their professional organization to declare that the homosexuality lifestyle is not treatable and never needs treatment .....especially from clergy who are not "controlled" by the them.

Drescher, Jack and Kenneth Zucker.  Ex-Gay Research:  Analyzing the Spitzer Study and Its Relation to ‘Science, Religion, Politics, and Culture. !st ed. Binghamton, NY 2006.



So is this thread about your political beliefs and why you feel they are under siege?

No, ozgeorge, this thread is NOT about politics and the moderators are not going to move it to a locked forum where thousands  will be unable to read it.  (Nice try, but no cigar for you.)  Please tell us what makes you desire to have this thread moved to the locked Politics forum? 

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« Reply #176 on: August 17, 2009, 10:40:53 AM »

My shared sentiments with a devout servant of God:

“Sometimes it seems like I’m on an atheist discussion board rather than an Orthodox one.  It is really a shame that some who profess Orthodoxy seek to eradicated God.  How can the mind be healthy if the mind is not attuned to Our Lord?”



Ozgperge, I know that you are cognizant of the fact that this is the world’s largest Orthodox Christian forum and you profess to be Greek Orthodox.  So, what is your motive for attempting to hijacking this thread? What makes you berate those that believe in the foundations of the Orthodox Christian faith?
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« Reply #177 on: August 17, 2009, 10:57:27 AM »

No, ozgeorge, this thread is NOT about politics
Its just that when you say things like: