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Author Topic: Christ paid for EVERY sin?  (Read 993 times) Average Rating: 0
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Catherine
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« on: August 07, 2009, 12:48:12 AM »

Here's a quote from George Sodini's blog (the man who shot and killed 3 women, wounding dozens of others, before turning the gun fatally on himself):

Quote
"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them."

http://georgesodini.com/20090804.htm


  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts regarding this news story - including the thoughts of those who believe in the doctrine of "eternal security" - no offense intended as I do realise this was a very extreme case as he was mentally disturbed, but it does bring up some interesting questions; hardcore antinomians, of course, will insist that a "saved" man could die as an unrepentant backslid, serial killer and still have the "assurance of salvation." Are we held accountable for our actions? Where do we draw the line?

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:49:10 AM by Catherine » Logged
Catherine
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2009, 01:28:27 AM »

 Regarding the link above. .

WARNING: GRAPHIC LANGUAGE - Please do not read

I was reading a piece in the Independent newspaper, but I provided a source for the quote to comply with the house rules.
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2009, 02:56:43 AM »

Well he's found out now that Christ did not "pay" for any sins. He should have stopped and asked: "To whom was the payment made?"
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 07:34:52 PM »

Yes and Amen.
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2009, 02:52:50 AM »

Well he's found out now that Christ did not "pay" for any sins. He should have stopped and asked: "To whom was the payment made?"

What a frightening story!

Ozgeorge, can you elaborate on what you mean here? Not that I'm disagreeing with you, just interested in exactly what you mean.

Selam
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2009, 05:54:39 AM »

Well he's found out now that Christ did not "pay" for any sins. He should have stopped and asked: "To whom was the payment made?"

What a frightening story!

Ozgeorge, can you elaborate on what you mean here? Not that I'm disagreeing with you, just interested in exactly what you mean.

Selam

In this quote below, which I posted two years ago on this forum, St. Gregory the Theologian discusses the absurdity of thinking that Christ's blood somehow either literally "paid a price to God" or literally "paid a ransom" for our sins.

St. Gregory the Theologian, Second Oration on Pascha

"To whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one, sold under sin, and received pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask, to who was this offered and to what cause? If to the evil one, fie upon the outrage! The robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and as such has an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone all together.
But first I ask, how? For it was not by Him (God) that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His only Begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac when he was being offered by his father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in place of a human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself and overcome the tryant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things."

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Myrrh23
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2009, 07:33:10 AM »

So is Christ's death suppose to be a sacrifice, but not a ransom? Where did the idea that it was a ransom come from anyways?
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2009, 08:35:26 AM »

So is Christ's death suppose to be a sacrifice, but not a ransom? Where did the idea that it was a ransom come from anyways?
From a misunderstanding of Scripture I think.
1 Peter 1 18-19 says:
"knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ...".
The Greek word translated here as "redeemed" means to "buy off", or to "ransom". There are different ways of redeeming people: For example, if you pay someone's bail to have them released from prison, this means you have "redeemed" them (and I think this is how it was misunderstood as being literal). However, there are three instances in the New Testament which clarify what is meant:

1) 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s." 

2) 1 Corinthians 7:23
"You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men."

3) Revelations 5:9
"And they sang a new song, saying:
      'You are worthy to take the scroll,
      And to open its seals;
      For You were slain,
      And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
      Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation...'

Christ has bought us and now owns us, we are His bondservants. You are the handmaiden of God who owes God the duty of a purchased servant, and I am the servant of God who owes God the duty of a purchased servant. Christ "paid" a price to "buy" us. Note especially the last quote  that says Christ has "redeemed us TO God"- in other words, we have been purchased for God.

How does this work? Well, Christ overcame death by death. By being murdered, he entered Hades and trampled down death, and Rose Gloriously from the dead to give us all the hope of the Resurrection. Do you want a share in the spoils and a wedding garment to wear at the feast? Then wash your clothes in the Blood of the Lamb and make them clean (Revelation 7:14) and be buried with Him in Baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). However, you must understand that if you do this, if you are baptised, you become His slave- and He has purchased you with His Blood- and you must struggle to live a life worthy of that price.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 08:39:05 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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Simayan
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2009, 02:23:35 PM »

Do you want a share in the spoils and a wedding garment to wear at the feast? Then wash your clothes in the Blood of the Lamb and make them clean (Revelation 7:14) and be buried with Him in Baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). However, you must understand that if you do this, if you are baptised, you become His slave- and He has purchased you with His Blood- and you must struggle to live a life worthy of that price.

Excellently said!!
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2009, 02:37:50 PM »

....
How does this work? Well, Christ overcame death by death. By being murdered, he entered Hades and trampled down death, and Rose Gloriously from the dead to give us all the hope of the Resurrection. Do you want a share in the spoils and a wedding garment to wear at the feast? Then wash your clothes in the Blood of the Lamb and make them clean (Revelation 7:14) and be buried with Him in Baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). However, you must understand that if you do this, if you are baptised, you become His slave- and He has purchased you with His Blood- and you must struggle to live a life worthy of that price.


So you're saying that when Christ "purchased" us with His Blood, the "purchase" is a figurative purchase, not a literal 'payment in blood' to Satan?

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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 03:56:36 AM »

So you're saying that when Christ "purchased" us with His Blood, the "purchase" is a figurative purchase, not a literal 'payment in blood' to Satan?

Exactly. The notion that God paid Satan -the father of lies and the murderer- for anything is abhorrent.
In a way, Christ has actually paid us:
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)
He is talking about being lifted up on the Cross here.
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