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« on: August 03, 2009, 10:38:02 PM »

Pretty neat videos of the Old Believers (Russian Orthodox). 5 parts to the Liturgy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O083e3dRggU
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2009, 11:01:25 PM »

Pretty neat videos of the Old Believers (Russian Orthodox). 5 parts to the Liturgy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O083e3dRggU

Must be priestly. Can one point out the differnences with the RO DL?
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2009, 11:41:32 PM »

Some prayers are recited twice instead of thrice.  Oh, and there's the whole age of apostasy differences.
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2009, 02:57:40 AM »

That person that's chanting from the book is he instead of a deacon,,do they have deacons..interesting video ..they keep asking several and more times thur the liturgy that St.Tikon pray to God For them.....
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2009, 11:55:59 AM »

Some of the differences you would find in an Old Believer Liturgy is the amount they say "Lord have mercy". Such as at the dismissal they would say "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Father Bless" instead of three and they will also only say Alleluia twice after reading Psalms. In the Litany of Fervent Supplication, either one "Lord have mercy" is said, or three, and then twelve for example:

"O Lord Almighty, God of our Fathers, we pray Thee: Lord have mercy

Furthermore, we pray for the prosperity, peace, tranquility, order and remission of sins of all Orthodox Christiandom. Let us say: Lord have mercy (Twelve times)

"Furthermore, we pray for all who serve or have served in this holy temple and for their health and salvation. Lord have mercy (Thrice)"

Prostrations are done more often during the Liturgy whether it is Sunday or not for instance they always do a prostration after the prayer "It is truly meet" and "Shine, shine, New Jerusalem" during Bright Week; "It is truly meet" is finished with a prostration all throughout the year. When prostrations are done, Old Believers use a small prayer rug called a podruchnik which is used to keep the hands clean during prayer after doing prostrations. There is more order in the services of Old Believers. There are appointed times when to do the Sign of the Cross, bow, and do a prostration so that everyone does them in unison so they don't do the Cross and bow whenever they feel like.

You can read about the different practices of the Old Rite at the Church of the Nativity's website: http://churchofthenativity.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=6&id=22&Itemid=48 Church of the Nativity is an Old Rite Church under ROCOR and they have a list of practices like conduct during services and entering a church. They publish a really nice prayer book that I would highly recommend called the Old Orthodox Prayer Book which includes Vespers, Matins, Hours, and Liturgy.

Here are also rules of piety: http://churchofthenativity.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=5&id=15&Itemid=52
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2009, 12:03:00 PM »

That person that's chanting from the book is he instead of a deacon,,do they have deacons..interesting video ..they keep asking several and more times thur the liturgy that St.Tikon pray to God For them.....

Old Believers have deacons since in my Old Rite prayer book it has parts for the deacon. The guy chanting is just a layman but I don't know what he is chanting.
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2009, 12:28:04 PM »

Some of the differences you would find in an Old Believer Liturgy is the amount they say "Lord have mercy". Such as at the dismissal they would say "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Father Bless" instead of three and they will also only say Alleluia twice after reading Psalms. In the Litany of Fervent Supplication, either one "Lord have mercy" is said, or three, and then twelve for example:

"O Lord Almighty, God of our Fathers, we pray Thee: Lord have mercy

Furthermore, we pray for the prosperity, peace, tranquility, order and remission of sins of all Orthodox Christiandom. Let us say: Lord have mercy (Twelve times)

"Furthermore, we pray for all who serve or have served in this holy temple and for their health and salvation. Lord have mercy (Thrice)"

Prostrations are done more often during the Liturgy whether it is Sunday or not for instance they always do a prostration after the prayer "It is truly meet" and "Shine, shine, New Jerusalem" during Bright Week; "It is truly meet" is finished with a prostration all throughout the year. When prostrations are done, Old Believers use a small prayer rug called a podruchnik which is used to keep the hands clean during prayer after doing prostrations. There is more order in the services of Old Believers. There are appointed times when to do the Sign of the Cross, bow, and do a prostration so that everyone does them in unison so they don't do the Cross and bow whenever they feel like.

You can read about the different practices of the Old Rite at the Church of the Nativity's website: http://churchofthenativity.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=6&id=22&Itemid=48 Church of the Nativity is an Old Rite Church under ROCOR and they have a list of practices like conduct during services and entering a church. They publish a really nice prayer book that I would highly recommend called the Old Orthodox Prayer Book which includes Vespers, Matins, Hours, and Liturgy.

Here are also rules of piety: http://churchofthenativity.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=5&id=15&Itemid=52

Ah the Old Ritualists!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinovertsy
may they lead the Russian Church to unity!
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2009, 04:44:15 PM »

The neat thing is the Old Believers used prescribed bows and when to make the sign of the cross.  In other words they aren't going to make the sign of the cross (the laity) at every petition in a litany.  Like even many people in my area only make the sign of the cross at the doxology at the end of a litany.  Little things like that are the differences.  The creed is different for the Old Believers as well.  And I think the Alleluia Alleluia Slava Tebi Boze (Glory to thee oh God, is that what it is in English username! sometimes forgets things in English so please forgive him) instead of Alleluia X3 Slava Tebi Boze. 
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 04:48:25 PM »

Quote
The creed is different for the Old Believers as well.
HOW different? I thought any alteration = anathema.
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2009, 04:52:53 PM »

Quote
The creed is different for the Old Believers as well.
HOW different? I thought any alteration = anathema.

Yes, from the 2nd edition of the Old Orthodox Prayer Book from the Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity (Old Rite) in Erie, PA the creed reads (page 110) And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord true and life-giving, Who proceedeth from the Father......

I had to get the book off my one set of bookshelves.

Look at how the Russian Orthodox and those of Russian Orthodox heritage say the creed... Lord the giver of life or Lord the Creator of Life... for comparison.

It is important to note that the Old Rite are those who resist the changes in the liturgy in church of 'Rus/Russia by Patriarch Nikon.  Hence compare a ROCOR, OCA or MP liturgy with the Old Believer Liturgical text. 
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 04:58:28 PM »

Quote
The creed is different for the Old Believers as well.
HOW different? I thought any alteration = anathema.

Верую во единаго Бога Отца, Вседержителя, Творца небу и земли, видимым же всем и невидимым. И во единаго Господа Исуса Христа, Сына Божия, Единороднаго, Иже от Отца рожденнаго прежде всех век; Света от Света, Бога истинна от Бога истинна, рожденна, несотворенна, единосущна Отцу, Имже вся быша. Нас ради человек и нашего ради спасения сшедшаго с небес и воплотившагося от Духа Свята и Марии Девы, и вочеловечшася. Распятаго же за ны при Понтийстем Пилате, и страдавша, и погребенна. И воскресшаго в третий день по Писанием. И возшедшаго на небеса, и седяща одесную Отца. И паки грядущаго со славою судити живым и мертвым, Егоже Царствию не будет конца. И в Духа Святаго, Господа животворящаго, Иже от Отца исходящаго, Иже со Отцем и Сыном спокланяема и сславима, глаголавшего пророки. Во едину Святую, Соборную и Апостольскую Церковь. Исповедую едино крещение во оставление грехов. Чаю воскресения мертвых, и жизни будущаго века. Аминь.

?

No idea.
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2009, 05:03:23 PM »

what in the world does that say? Ya ni gavaru pa Ruski  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 05:08:52 PM »

Devin did you see what I quoted from the Old Believer prayer book in English?  That's the difference I was talking about.
And that isn't Russian that is Church Slavonic that Mike posted without a link for a quote and a translation into English..... Mike?  Help us out brother!
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 05:09:25 PM »

It's not Russian but Church Slavonic in Russian transliteration. It's the Creed, where word "Jesus" - "Иисус" was wrtiiten with one "и" as Old Believers do. I thought it is the only one difference, but username! explained it more reliably.

Do you really need the source of Creed? Wink
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2009, 05:10:14 PM »

thank you Mike! 
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2009, 05:23:39 PM »

doh! I shoulda known it was Church Slavonic. But I didn't know how to say, "I don't know Church Slavonic" in Church Slavonic so, hehehe...
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2009, 05:58:00 PM »

Quote
The creed is different for the Old Believers as well.
HOW different? I thought any alteration = anathema.

Верую во единаго Бога Отца, Вседержителя, Творца небу и земли, видимым же всем и невидимым. И во единаго Господа Исуса Христа, Сына Божия, Единороднаго, Иже от Отца рожденнаго прежде всех век; Света от Света, Бога истинна от Бога истинна, рожденна, несотворенна, единосущна Отцу, Имже вся быша. Нас ради человек и нашего ради спасения сшедшаго с небес и воплотившагося от Духа Свята и Марии Девы, и вочеловечшася. Распятаго же за ны при Понтийстем Пилате, и страдавша, и погребенна. И воскресшаго в третий день по Писанием. И возшедшаго на небеса, и седяща одесную Отца. И паки грядущаго со славою судити живым и мертвым, Егоже Царствию не будет конца. И в Духа Святаго, Господа животворящаго, Иже от Отца исходящаго, Иже со Отцем и Сыном спокланяема и сславима, глаголавшего пророки. Во едину Святую, Соборную и Апостольскую Церковь. Исповедую едино крещение во оставление грехов. Чаю воскресения мертвых, и жизни будущаго века. Аминь.

?

No idea.












it  seems similar the creed to the serbian way...
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2009, 06:41:49 PM »

The alteration in the Creed was one of the major reasons for the schism. That along with the change of the Sign of the Cross; Old Believers use two fingers straightened with the ring, pinky, and thumb together which is also the same gesture that priests use to give a blessing (see Christ Pantocrator icon from Sinai). In the Creed they say "begotten but not made" where the newer one says "begotten not made" and also they say "And in the Holy Spirit, the True Lord, the Giver of Life" instead of the "Lord and giver of life" as was posted above. Also, during processions, Old Believers process around the church clockwise where the new practice in counter-clockwise.

There are absolutely no abbreviations in the services allowed in Old Rite practice either and many Old Believer churches will do the complete daily cycle of services according to the Typicon of St. Savvas.
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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2009, 06:49:04 PM »

So how can they claim they preserve the tradition when they accept an altered form of the Creed?
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2009, 07:03:20 PM »

The alteration in the Creed was one of the major reasons for the schism. That along with the change of the Sign of the Cross; Old Believers use two fingers straightened with the ring, pinky, and thumb together which is also the same gesture that priests use to give a blessing (see Christ Pantocrator icon from Sinai). In the Creed they say "begotten but not made" where the newer one says "begotten not made" and also they say "And in the Holy Spirit, the True Lord, the Giver of Life" instead of the "Lord and giver of life" as was posted above. Also, during processions, Old Believers process around the church clockwise where the new practice in counter-clockwise.

There are absolutely no abbreviations in the services allowed in Old Rite practice either and many Old Believer churches will do the complete daily cycle of services according to the Typicon of St. Savvas.


I don't see that much of a  difference in this creed than from what we all recite ,,,
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2009, 07:18:17 PM »

So how can they claim they preserve the tradition when they accept an altered form of the Creed?

Because that is how the Russian Church recited the Creed prior to the Reforms of Patriarch Nikon and he changed it with his reforms as he did with changing how the Sign of the Cross was made; Old Believers think the three fingered Sign of the Cross is heretical as they do with the change in the Creed. The Old Believers said no to the change and refused to submit to the reforms. The Old Believers who have priests and bishops (like the ones under the MP/ROCOR or under the Old Rite Patriarch) have preserved Orthodoxy the way it was in Russia before the reforms of Nikon, they didn't change anything.
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2009, 07:19:45 PM »

The alteration in the Creed was one of the major reasons for the schism. That along with the change of the Sign of the Cross; Old Believers use two fingers straightened with the ring, pinky, and thumb together which is also the same gesture that priests use to give a blessing (see Christ Pantocrator icon from Sinai). In the Creed they say "begotten but not made" where the newer one says "begotten not made" and also they say "And in the Holy Spirit, the True Lord, the Giver of Life" instead of the "Lord and giver of life" as was posted above. Also, during processions, Old Believers process around the church clockwise where the new practice in counter-clockwise.

There are absolutely no abbreviations in the services allowed in Old Rite practice either and many Old Believer churches will do the complete daily cycle of services according to the Typicon of St. Savvas.


I don't see that much of a  difference in this creed than from what we all recite ,,,

They aren't really that big of differences but to Old Believers they are. They would probably say the change lessened the role of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2009, 08:07:24 PM »

Did you used to be Old Believer Andrew? (honest question)
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2009, 08:09:35 PM »

[Света от Света] is this interpreted as holy of holy or as light of light[светлост од светлости]curious...
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2009, 09:12:51 PM »

Did you used to be Old Believer Andrew? (honest question)

No I wasn't. I do know a lot about Old Rite practices though because I have read a lot about them and I also have a brother who is very into Old Believer practices. Before coming to Orthodoxy, I was Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2009, 12:03:19 AM »

So how can they claim they preserve the tradition when they accept an altered form of the Creed?

Because that is how the Russian Church recited the Creed prior to the Reforms of Patriarch Nikon and he changed it with his reforms

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed has remained intact in its original Greek since AD 381. The Slavonic version which is used to this day is identical to that of the Greek. I am also puzzled as to why the Old Believers insist on referring to Jesus Christ as Исус instead of Иисус, where their version is linguistically incorrect, yet, they insist on giving it a level of importance akin to doctrine.
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2009, 12:13:06 AM »

[Света от Света] is this interpreted as holy of holy or as light of light[светлост од светлости]curious...

Light of Light.  It is homonymous with Holy only in Serbian, I think. Has to do with the reflexes of Old Slavonic  ѣ.
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2009, 12:35:09 AM »

[Света от Света] is this interpreted as holy of holy or as light of light[светлост од светлости]curious...

Light of Light.  It is homonymous with Holy only in Serbian, I think. Has to do with the reflexes of Old Slavonic  ѣ.

 Hello!  Isa
light of light[светлост од светлости] thats how serbs say light of light [Svetlost od svetlosti] the word CBETA actually means holy in serbian...But you could be right though....when it comes to the old slovanic meaning...
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2009, 12:45:59 AM »

[Света от Света] is this interpreted as holy of holy or as light of light[светлост од светлости]curious...

Light of Light.  It is homonymous with Holy only in Serbian, I think. Has to do with the reflexes of Old Slavonic  ѣ.

 Hello!  Isa
light of light[светлост од светлости] thats how serbs say light of light [Svetlost od svetlosti] the word CBETA actually means holy in serbian...But you could be right though....when it comes to the old slovanic meaning...

Stashko, Isa is indeed right. Church Slavonic has differences with modern Slavic languages like Russian and Serbo-Croat. For instance, zhivot' in Slavonic means life, but in modern Russian means stomach or belly.
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2009, 12:53:44 AM »

zhivot means life in Serbian  ...na zdravlje means to your health.. the Russians have the toast zhivili long life as well as we ....Old slovanic  is pretty darn close to all the Slavic tongues

Theres words in serbian proabably  as well in russian that do have two meanings this may be the case.......
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« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2009, 04:07:38 PM »


So how can they claim they preserve the tradition when they accept an altered form of the Creed?

Because they are entirely consistent statements of faith that are almost identical even in text.

Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit is the Lord true and life giving?
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2009, 08:16:25 AM »

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Because they are entirely consistent statements of faith that are almost identical even in text.
The Latin Creed is almost identical to the true Creed, it only added one word...
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« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2009, 09:23:41 AM »

Which change the meaning completely. Old Believer's creed additions (EO cut offs) are only text's style changes.
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2009, 01:22:00 AM »

"The Latin Creed is almost identical to the true Creed, it only added one word..."

That addition clearly changed the meaning. You didn't answer my question. Do you disagree with the meaning of the Russian addition to the Creed?
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2009, 01:33:27 AM »

Read Meyendorff, 'Russia, Ritual and Reform' if you want to get a good comparison of the changes made by Patriarch Nikon to the Sluzehbnik/Liturgicon.
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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2009, 01:38:37 AM »

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Because they are entirely consistent statements of faith that are almost identical even in text.
The Latin Creed is almost identical to the true Creed, it only added one word...


can you back that up? 
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« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2009, 08:20:34 AM »

If the Old Believer's creed is only textual changes and the meaning is not changed, and if the EO Church doesn't see anything wrong with it, then I don't see anything wrong with it.

In response to username! The Latin Creed:
Quote
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.

Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

We all know the history behind the addition of that one word to the Creed.

But we are getting off topic... What I'm trying to say is, we must be VERY cautious by non-Orthodox groups who add/change things in the Creed, even if it's differences in translation. Look at scripture & how various Bibles like the NKJV, KJV, NIV etc... all translate it, yet you get completely different meanings with each translation.

So it could be with the Creed, if the text is even changed, we must be very careful that the meaning is exactly the same as the original Creed.
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« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2009, 11:11:10 AM »

I think it should be pointed out that the Old Believers did not, from their point of view, change anything.  They are simply keeping what they received and used for over 600 years close to their hearts.  Objectively speaking, it was Patriarch Nikon who changed things; the Old Believers kept what they had received.

As noted, the Russian Orthodox Church has since, thankfully, seen it fit to accept the way the Old Believers practice their faith, including the way they write the Name of our Lord and the idiosyncratic text of the Creed.  To paraphrase Blessed Augustine, Moscow has spoken.
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« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2009, 01:21:23 PM »

I have a question about the Old Believers that I hope is OK to ask here.  I used to live on the Kenai peninsula where there is a community of Old Believers.  Once, I went to a lake to swim and there were some (married, I think) couples there swimming. When one couple came out of the water, the wife dried her husbands feet. I always wondered if that was done for a religious reason, or cultural, or simply something personal between the couple.  I hope this question does not cause any offense, but I've always been curious about it. Information about the Old Believers has always interested me.
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« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2009, 01:24:01 PM »

If the Old Believer's creed is only textual changes and the meaning is not changed, and if the EO Church doesn't see anything wrong with it, then I don't see anything wrong with it.

In response to username! The Latin Creed:
Quote
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.

Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

We all know the history behind the addition of that one word to the Creed.

But we are getting off topic... What I'm trying to say is, we must be VERY cautious by non-Orthodox groups who add/change things in the Creed, even if it's differences in translation. Look at scripture & how various Bibles like the NKJV, KJV, NIV etc... all translate it, yet you get completely different meanings with each translation.

So it could be with the Creed, if the text is even changed, we must be very careful that the meaning is exactly the same as the original Creed.


Hence read the book I referenced.  And the original Creed would have been written in Greek not Latin. 
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« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2009, 02:22:05 PM »

As noted, the Russian Orthodox Church has since, thankfully, seen it fit to accept the way the Old Believers practice their faith, including the way they write the Name of our Lord and the idiosyncratic text of the Creed.  To paraphrase Blessed Augustine, Moscow has spoken.

Correct, all anathemas on Old Believers have been lifted by the Russian Church. There are some Old Believers who have returned to the Patriarchate or joined ROCOR which are known as Edinovertsy who have kept all the pre-Nikonian rituals.
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« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2009, 02:38:24 PM »

The only thing I have to warn about in the book I referenced, Meyendorff, 'Russia: Ritual and Reform" is that the author lays out the differences between what we here would call the pre-nikonian reforms and his reforms in transliterated Church Slavonic (church Slavonic in the English Alphabet).  I only say that because a minimal working knowledge of Church Slavonic is required to see the differences laid out in the book.  Not a bad thing as the author underlines the words that changed/rubrics that were changed. 
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« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2009, 02:55:00 PM »

Didn't Nikon also ban the construction of "tents" where the dome normally is in churches?

Tents are the tower like the one in the center of St. Basil's Cathedral:

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/48/5848-004-C9C4B761.jpg

Were there other architectural "reforms" Nikon made?

(if necessary I can create a new thread)
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