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Author Topic: Met. Lubomyr of the Ukrainian Catholics on ecumenism  (Read 3606 times) Average Rating: 0
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The young fogey
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« on: November 08, 2002, 01:25:38 PM »

This is from RISU, a Catholic-oriented news service from Ukraine:

http://www.risu.org.ua/article.php?sid=522&l=en

Quotation and commentary:

Quote
Cardinal Husar explained his vision of ecumenism. According to him, “everyone remains himself and preserves his own identity, but everyone recognizes one visible center, which, as we believe, is the successor of St. Peter the Apostle and has to be perceived as a visible symbol of unity between the apostles and, through them, of the entire church.”

Holy sh*t, Metropolitan Lubomyr’s let the cat out of the bag. This sounds like an Orthodox accusation/exaggeration but no, it’s right from the horse’s mouth. This sounds a LOT like ‘believe whatever you want as long as you send your money to the Supreme Pontiff’. The Fraternity of St Peter and the Women’s Ordination Conference have the same ‘center of unity’. Ugh. Structural unity without a common doctrine is Anglican comprehensiveness, not historic Catholicism. And certainly not Eastern Orthodoxy.

To be fair, I know Catholicism has a corpus of beliefs and a catechism summarizing them that all must believe - historically, no, it’s not merely the cult of the Pope - but statements like Metropolitan Lubomyr’s sure are creepy.

I understand the Ukrainian Catholic Church has proclaimed him a patriarch and will move his see to Kiev soon - here is a RISU story on the new cathedral: http://www.risu.org.ua/article.php?sid=533&offsets=&l=en. Great news for the internal affairs of Eastern Catholics; TERRIBLE for relations with the indigenous Church in Ukraine, the Moscow Patriarchate.

I've also been told by a reliable source within the Ukrainian Catholic Church that in Ukraine these people are up to their old tricks again, doing virtually anything to distinguish themselves from Russian Orthodox. (Which is why they self-latinized in their past.) There now exists in practice a Uke version of the guitar Mass - the -¦-¦-+-¦-â-Ç-¦ Liturgy. (A bandura looks like a big mandolin and sounds like a dulcimer - very pretty.) Ugh again.
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2002, 02:27:07 PM »

[Quote:Cardinal Husar explained his vision of ecumenism. According to him, “everyone remains himself and preserves his own identity, but everyone recognizes one visible center, which, as we believe, is the successor of St. Peter the Apostle and has to be perceived as a visible symbol of unity between the apostles and, through them, of the entire church.” ]

By their deeds they shall be known.  Now you understand why the terminology "Orthodox In Communion With Rome" has come back into vogue amongst them.  Once again the plan is to take advantage of the fierce nationalism and theological ignorance of the people to impose the Unia amongst them.  To play the 'Roman Catholic' word game by letting them keep their Orthodox' identity while changing them into loyal papal Catholics.  The goal is to be Ukrainian and loyal to the Pope.  Notice that doctrine is of second importance in spite of the Scriptural teaching that -

I Corthnthians 1:10  

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there is no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement.

In spite of the above, we can believe whatever we want as long as we accept the 'Vicar of Christ On Earth'.  Kind of a Protestant  concept (or should I say Roman Catholic not in communion with Rome), don't you think?

What amazes me is in the next breathe they will  play the innocent  and  persecuted role and complaim about the fact that we don't trust them and accuse them of proseltyzing.  Do you know that this new Cathedral is right accross the river from the monastery of the Caves.

 LVIV, UKRAINE, Oct 31, 02 (RISU.org.ua) - Cardinal Lubomyr Husar, head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC), Archbishop Nikola Eterovic, apostolic nuncio in Ukraine, and UGCC bishops from Ukraine and abroad consecrated the cornerstone of the UGCC patriarchal Cathedral of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ in Kyiv on 27 October 2002.

“This cornerstone will remind future generations of the remarkable time when, after so many unsuccessful years, our dreams began to come true. Today, the churches witness the tragic split which has separated all the descendants of Grand Prince St. Volodymyr. Every one of us picks a church for himself very carefully. So now, when we are constructing a church for Greek Catholics, there may be reproaches that, by doing so, we are only deepening the division. I would like to refute this idea, and emphasize that by building the church we are not intensifying the split. We are trying to bring closer the time when every Kyivan will be able to enter any church in Kyiv without hesitation and with clear conscience, as it was during the reign of Grand Prince Volodymyr, to bring closer the time when one patriarch of a single national Christian church in Ukraine will reside in St. Sophia’a Cathedral,” stressed Cardinal Husar at the consecration ceremony.

After the construction of the cathedral is finished, the spiritual center of the UGCC will move from St. George’s Cathedral in Lviv to Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv. Today, the UGCC has only two small churches in Kyiv. The construction of the majestic cathedral, which will be 58 meters long, 49 meters wide and 61 meters high, will substantially increase Greek Catholic representation in the religious panorama of capital.
 



« Last Edit: November 08, 2002, 02:35:26 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2002, 03:49:02 PM »

Quote
Sounds to me like they are building this new cathedral with the idea that they will be filling it with converts from the Orthodox Church.  I mean who will fill it, but converts.  Kyiv is the center for Orthodoxy in Ukraine and as Ive read the numbers of Eastern Catholics are not there to fill this new edifice.  

JoeS


After the construction of the cathedral is finished, the spiritual center of the UGCC will move from St. George’s Cathedral in Lviv to Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv. Today, the UGCC has only two small churches in Kyiv. The construction of the majestic cathedral, which will be 58 meters long, 49 meters wide and 61 meters high, will substantially increase Greek Catholic representation in the religious panorama of capital.
 




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The young fogey
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2002, 04:13:12 PM »

Well, to be fair a lot of Ukrainians are unchurched but still it looks like an act of aggression for the reason you gave, Joe - there are next to no Eastern Catholics in Kiev. L'ubomyr's turf is in old Polish Galicia - L'vov.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2002, 04:40:10 PM »

Well, to be fair a lot of Ukrainians are unchurched but still it looks like an act of aggression for the reason you gave, Joe - there are next to no Eastern Catholics in Kiev. L'ubomyr's turf is in old Polish Galicia - L'vov.

So now there will be two self-styled Patriarchs of Kiev and All Ukraine?  One for the Byzantine Ukrainian Rite Catholics under Cardinal Husar moving from L'viv to Kyiv, where there are presently virtually no Ukrainian Catholics, and one for the schismatic, uncanonical "Orthodox" Kyivan Patriarchate under the deposed former Metropolitan, Mr. Filaret Denisenko?  Will these two "patriarchates" merge, do you think?  And if so, will the merged "patriarchate" be under Rome or (re)establish relations with canonical Orthodoxy?  And where will this leave Metropolitan Mefodiy and his "Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church"?

Hypo-Ortho (half-Polish/half-Ukrainian member of the OCA who agonizes over the Orthodox Church in Ukraine)

 
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2002, 04:52:02 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

Quote
So now there will be two self-styled Patriarchs of Kiev and All Ukraine?  One for the Byzantine Ukrainian Rite Catholics under Cardinal Husar moving from L'viv to Kyiv, where there are presently virtually no Ukrainian Catholics, and one for the schismatic, uncanonical "Orthodox" Kyivan Patriarchate under the deposed former Metropolitan, Mr. Filaret Denisenko?

Yes, and Filaret's lay name is Michael Denisenko.

Quote
Will these two "patriarchates" merge, do you think?

Probably not, unless Filaret got the title of Kievan patriarch if he became Catholic. (Interestingly, I think that's what Metropolitan Peter [Mogila] wanted too, back in the 1600s - he would have become Catholic if the Pope named him patriarch of Kiev.)  

Quote
And if so, will the merged "patriarchate" be under Rome or (re)establish relations with canonical Orthodoxy?

Ukrainian Catholics AFAIK never will leave the Catholic Church. So according to the rules of the game, the 'merged patriarchate' would be the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

Quote
And where will this leave Metropolitan Mefodiy and his "Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church"?

I think this group is functionally united to the Kiev Patriarchate so where the KP goes, so goes the UAOC.


« Last Edit: November 08, 2002, 07:00:16 PM by Serge » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2002, 05:06:33 PM »

[Will these two "patriarchates" merge, do you think?  And if so, will the merged "patriarchate" be under Rome or (re)establish relations with canonical Orthodoxy?]

'Under Rome' is a no no.  The new buzz words are 'In communion with'.  Don't you know they are now being  told they are 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' to prepare them.  {Hope I'm not breaking the rules by using that terminology to explain my reply}.

Once again, they aremore than mere titles and more than name calling.
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2002, 06:30:16 PM »

Quote
No doubt in my mind that the Roman church is intent on converting the lost souls that are still out there in the kyiv areas.  IMHO, it is power and influence, that drives the western church in its ultimate domination of the Ukraine. No matter what you may say this is the ultimate goal in gaining the upper hand so to speak in the area of influence.  I dont trust the roman church as far as I can spit.  I willl never trust the vatican in anything referring to brotherly love.


So now there will be two self-styled Patriarchs of Kiev and All Ukraine?  One for the Byzantine Ukrainian Rite Catholics under Cardinal Husar moving from L'viv to Kyiv, where there are presently virtually no Ukrainian Catholics, and one for the schismatic, uncanonical "Orthodox" Kyivan Patriarchate under the deposed former Metropolitan, Mr. Filaret Denisenko?  Will these two "patriarchates" merge, do you think?  And if so, will the merged "patriarchate" be under Rome or (re)establish relations with canonical Orthodoxy?  And where will this leave Metropolitan Mefodiy and his "Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church"?

Hypo-Ortho (half-Polish/half-Ukrainian member of the OCA who agonizes over the Orthodox Church in Ukraine)

 
 
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2002, 09:08:24 PM »

Serge!
LOL!! Haha I play the bandura and I have never ever heard of a bandura 'Liturgy!' The church is important in the (old time) banduryst's life, especially the blind kobzari. They wouls sing religious dumy, psalms, kants, etc. and would play infront of churches, but never in. Thats funny though. I know bandura players in Ukraine, and some in Western who are Ukrainian Catholic, but I have never heard of it being a part of the liturgy. You are right, the bandura is pretty, but hey I am biased Smiley

Maybe to attract the youth? I doubt. There is a Ukie Cath. parish, newly built in the Sykhiv part of L'viv that is the L'viv equivilant of the famed Sts. V & O in Chicago, very Eastern minded. Both are packed with youth. The church in Sykhiv serves up to 25,000 faithful. The Pope held a youth rally there, that I attended.

You are right, the UGCC is now a self proclaimed patriarchate.

Serge said: "TERRIBLE for relations with the indigenous Church in Ukraine, the Moscow Patriarchate."

huuuuhhhhh? indigenous since when?

Serge said: "there are next to no Eastern Catholics in Kiev. L'ubomyr's turf is in old Polish Galicia - L'vov"

True now, but the Unia (ehich did split the nation) did originate from Kyiv. Also about L'viv, although it has swtiched hands between Ukes, Poles, Austrains, the Reds, etc., there was and had been, at times small, a Ukrainian populaion there. This is evident by churches built in the area and there was a Kozak unit from L'viv. Now, L'viv is a major center of the Ukrainian revival movement.

Hypo- Orthodox said: "So now there will be two self-styled Patriarchs of Kiev and All Ukraine? One for the Byzantine Ukrainian Rite Catholics under Cardinal Husar moving from L'viv to Kyiv, where there are presently virtually no Ukrainian Catholics, and one for the schismatic, uncanonical "Orthodox" Kyivan Patriarchate under the deposed former Metropolitan, Mr. Filaret Denisenko? Will these two "patriarchates" merge, do you think? And if so, will the merged "patriarchate" be under Rome or (re)establish relations with canonical Orthodoxy? And where will this leave Metropolitan Mefodiy and his "Ukrainian Autonomous Orthodox Church"?

Well yes, two. All of the true Ukrainian churches (those not under Moscow) are very friendly with each other. It is rumored several KP bishops might join the UGCC.

Serge said: "Probably not, unless Filaret got the title of Kievan patriarch if he became Catholic. (Interestingly, I think that's what Metropolitan Peter [Mogila] wanted too, back in the 1600s - he would have become Catholic if the Pope named him patriarch of Kiev.)

Filaret has also pledged to step down if he needs to when it comes to the establishment of a Kyivan Patriarchate. This patriarchate means EVERY Eastern Ukrainian church in the world together, be it UGCC, KP, UOC-USA, etc. A united church is needed for Ukraine and Ukrainians to survive. (Serge it's Mohyla Smiley )

Serge said: "I think this group is functionally united to the Kiev Patriarchate so where the KP goes, so goes the UAOC"

Yes and no. They are on good terms with each other, but not united. The UAOC (a meaning autocepholous) is actually allied and commerates the UOC-USA hierarchs, who are canonical under Bartholomew, the EP.

Orthodoc said: "Under Rome' is a no no. The new buzz words are 'In communion with'. Don't you know they are now being told they are 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' to prepare them. {Hope I'm not breaking the rules by using that terminology to explain my reply}."

That is the buzz phrase rumored by people in Ukraine and diaspora. The Kyivan Patriarchate would be in communion with, or allied with Rome. Ideally, it would be Autonomous.

I was trying to post from a factual point of view. I apologize if some maybe take it as a nationalistic post, which I didn't intend it to be.

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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2002, 10:25:06 PM »

[All of the true Ukrainian churches (those not under Moscow) are very friendly with each other. It is rumored several KP bishops might join the UGCC. ]

So the TRUTH of the Ukrainian church is determined by its national/ethnic identity and relationship with Moscow rather than its doctrines, apostolic succession, and the canons of the Church?  

How are those so called true Ukrainan Orthodox Churches any truer than the UGCC that has to bow down and kiss the Popes foot when he visits?

If this is the popular view amongst Ukrainians then - This statement, in of itself, proves that the Ukraine is still too immature to have its own autocephalous Church.

I support a  canonical autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Church with its  own Patriarch until I read things like this.  Then I have to wonder.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2002, 10:27:29 PM »

[That is the buzz phrase rumored by people in Ukraine and diaspora. The Kyivan Patriarchate would be in communion with, or allied with Rome. ]

And would therefore, cease to be Orthodox.

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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2002, 10:45:00 PM »

Orthodoc,

Glory be to Jesus Christ!

What I meant by true was those bishops who belong to the ranks of the Ukrainian churches in Ukrainian. There are Polish bishops in the UGCC and some of Russian decent in the KP so it doesn't have anything ethnicity. I was pointing out that the churches not under Moscow are friendly with each other.

All I was doing was clarifying and pointing out inter-church relations. The UOC-MP church is a thorn when it comes to unity and friendly diolouge. This iall based on my family in Ukraine, many f whom are clergy in both Catholic and Orthodox churches, and my own oberservations while I was there.

All in all, it is important for the future of the country and people, that there is a united Kyivan Patriarchate, Orthodox  preferably.

surferuke
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2002, 10:53:14 PM »

Ukraine's population is largely secular but AFAIK most churches and churchgoers are MP. I know, surferuke, the Kievan metropolia was around before there was an MP but the question is who is today ecclesiastically can clain that medieval Kievan birthright? The KP and UAOC (thanks for the info on the latter - the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Outside of Ukraine But in Ukraine Now Too?) are parvenus. (And the KP are vagantes anyway.) I know the metropolitan of Kiev (Michael [Rago++a]) signed off on the union in 1596 so if you're Catholic that pretty much settles who the successor of medieval Kiev is. But if you're Orthodox or a serious Eastern ecumenist Catholic, I think the MP has a lock on it.

Quote
That is the buzz phrase rumored by people in Ukraine and diaspora. The Kyivan Patriarchate would be in communion with, or allied with Rome.

Right. Like I said, according to the rules of the game-skij Catholicwise everybody would then be Ukrainian Catholic.
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2002, 01:23:15 AM »


So the TRUTH of the Ukrainian church is determined by its national/ethnic identity and relationship with Moscow rather than its doctrines, apostolic succession, and the canons of the Church?  


Just an observation, but this is the same listless disposition as the MP, who constantly implies they have a canonical territory relative to the Latins! In other words, territory, ethniticity, political intrigue - it's all part of the same vice, where truth is somewhere behind power, pride, and comfort.

This exact vice within "orthodox" circles is what created the "Eastern Catholics" to begin with. I mean come on, it is not as though the pope had a mind-bending ray gun.

And none of this would be possible if it were not for lay people and priests blindly following their High-Priest. The ideal of ‘Obedience above truth’ is the motto of Papalism. As pointed out earlier with regards to the "Eastern catholics", Papal Rome has always elevated external unity to a supreme virtue, subjecting even truth to it. Anyone who counsels obedience to those they know are in error are suggesting a ‘Roman obedience’ that is blind and opposed to the freedom guaranteed by Holy Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, by its very definition, is concerned with truth, rather than preserving an external, false unity. We are not Romans, nor Jesuits!
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emmaus
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2002, 12:07:51 PM »

Other than the 'unholy trinity' of Big Mac, Hollywood, and Wall Street, who are the primary evangelizers of Ukraine: the Orthodox, Catholics, or Baptists?

www.thealabamabaptist.org/comment/archives/2002/april_29.htm

rtss
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2002, 01:56:35 PM »

Reading your post, I would think it is the Baptists.  But with the arrival of new immigrants daily in my area from both Russia and Ukraine, all of whom seem to be practicing Pentecostalists, I think it is the Pentecostalists who are even doing a more thorough job in proselytizing.  The so-called "Slavic Pentecostalist Churches" in my area are growing by leaps and bounds with the influx of membership arising out of the newest immigrants from Russia and Ukraine.  I have no idea where the Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic immigrants are going to, but they're not coming to Western Massachusetts when they leave Russia or Ukraine.  And these Pentecostalist immigrants are a hard nut to crack too: they refuse invitations to attend the 2 local "Russian" Orthodox churches, one OCA, the other ROCOR, or even the nearby Ukrainian Greek-Catholic church.

Hypo-Ortho
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