Author Topic: Need tips on how to deal with faith  (Read 3710 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2017, 03:06:12 PM »
God burns sinners forever because an offense against an infinite God demands an infinite punishment.
I have heard that argument before, and I don't mean to be rude, but the more I hear it, the more ridiculous it sounds to me... As humbly as I can, I beg you, please explain to me why an "offense" against a God that is supposed to be all-knowing and all-loving MUST punish creatures that "offends"(how can a God who is infinite mercy and love even be offended I wonder?) him with infinite torture? Why infinite because he is infinite? If he is infinite and therefore demands infinite punishment, why then did he limit this life to ca. 80 years? Why did he create all these poor creatures that he knew  would be infinitely punished? Please help me understand all this. My priest says that God sometimes "chooses not to know everything in advance". But that is highly unsatisfactory to me.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 03:07:45 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,245
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2017, 03:12:20 PM »
God burns sinners forever because an offense against an infinite God demands an infinite punishment.

What an impotent god.

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • Faith: Inquiring
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2017, 03:13:08 PM »

Two things: 1. I don't think what christians have said about hell represents what Christ said and meant. I think christians have deeply distorted Christ's message. I am convinced of that. I don't call Christ sick. 2. Though, what would be unfair as it seems to me, is that I, in the deep quest for truth, am not aloud to even question Christ. Why am I not aloud to question him? To I hurt his honor so bad if I say "Why do you torment sinners FOREVER? Not only for a long time for their benefit, but FOREVER? Why is it that loving? What is loving with saying 'I love you, but if you don't believe me, I will torture you forever'?". If I can't ask that to Christ without him being offended and willing to cast me into that blazing furnace... Well... I don't know... It seems unforgiving.

You will find many answers to the problem of Hell, none of them definitive to be sure. If you haven't, I recommend you to read the links I gave you on the first page of this thread.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 03:14:41 PM by AlioshaKaramazov »

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2017, 03:19:53 PM »

Two things: 1. I don't think what christians have said about hell represents what Christ said and meant. I think christians have deeply distorted Christ's message. I am convinced of that. I don't call Christ sick. 2. Though, what would be unfair as it seems to me, is that I, in the deep quest for truth, am not aloud to even question Christ. Why am I not aloud to question him? To I hurt his honor so bad if I say "Why do you torment sinners FOREVER? Not only for a long time for their benefit, but FOREVER? Why is it that loving? What is loving with saying 'I love you, but if you don't believe me, I will torture you forever'?". If I can't ask that to Christ without him being offended and willing to cast me into that blazing furnace... Well... I don't know... It seems unforgiving.

You will find many answers to the problem of Hell, none of them definitive to be sure. If you haven't, I recommend you to read the links I gave you on the first page of this thread.
I have read those links and I support that view way more than the other views. BUT, it still is unsatisfactory to me. HIGHLY unsatisfactory. Is God then incapable of saving people from hell? Or does he still not want to?
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline michaelus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
  • Faith: Inquiring
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2017, 03:20:28 PM »
You're right in the sense that not every sin incurs eternal punishment.
You want to know why God punishes sinners?  He doesn't only CHOOSE to punish sinners.
He MUST punish sinners because He is all perfect, all righteous, and, importantly, all just.
But also rejoice at the thought that He is all just, because that means that He never punishes you more than you deserve.
Also, there are many people who lived much longer lives than 80 years.  It is in the Bible  :)
My point is that God's punishment is perfectly just.  I remember hearing a story once about a Russian monk.
On the day of his death, he was in bliss, despite the fact that he was lazy and sinful.  When the other monks asked him why, he said that he had never judged another man in his life, and when the angels came to take him to heaven, they brought a long list of sins, and when he saw them, he repeated the Scripture which said "Judge not, that you may not be judged", and the angels tore up his sins and took him to heaven.
"A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.'" - St. Anthony The Great

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2017, 03:27:15 PM »
You're right in the sense that not every sin incurs eternal punishment.
You want to know why God punishes sinners?  He doesn't only CHOOSE to punish sinners.
He MUST punish sinners because He is all perfect, all righteous, and, importantly, all just.
But also rejoice at the thought that He is all just, because that means that He never punishes you more than you deserve.
Also, there are many people who lived much longer lives than 80 years.  It is in the Bible  :)
My point is that God's punishment is perfectly just.  I remember hearing a story once about a Russian monk.
On the day of his death, he was in bliss, despite the fact that he was lazy and sinful.  When the other monks asked him why, he said that he had never judged another man in his life, and when the angels came to take him to heaven, they brought a long list of sins, and when he saw them, he repeated the Scripture which said "Judge not, that you may not be judged", and the angels tore up his sins and took him to heaven.
He doesn't punish me more than I deserve, but he punishes me forever nevertheless. I can't see how threatening people(which the bible does a lot) is the best way to spiritual development. The thought of everlasting hell chokes the spiritual development. It makes it impossible for me to even wish to draw near to God.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • Faith: Inquiring
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2017, 03:29:34 PM »

I have read those links and I support that view way more than the other views. BUT, it still is unsatisfactory to me. HIGHLY unsatisfactory. Is God then incapable of saving people from hell? Or does he still not want to?

That would imply to force the damned to change their minds when they clearly don't want to, thus violating their free will. Do you want a tyrant God or a God that respects our freedom, even to take bad decisions and assume their consequences?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 03:32:10 PM by AlioshaKaramazov »

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2017, 03:35:40 PM »

I have read those links and I support that view way more than the other views. BUT, it still is unsatisfactory to me. HIGHLY unsatisfactory. Is God then incapable of saving people from hell? Or does he still not want to?

That would imply to force the damned to change their minds when they clearly don't want to, thus violating their free will. Do you want a tyrant God or a God that respects our freedom, even to take bad decisions and assume their consequences?
By a tyrant God I suppose you mean the God of Calvinism? Do you mean that people in hell don't want to get out of there? IF hell is a literal fire(as many believe), then I doubt anyone who is there wants to be there. I don't want a tyrant God. Nor do I want a God who gives up on me as soon as I am dead and in hell by "respecting my decision". I doubt that many people in hell have made an honest decision FOR eternal hell. What do you by the way mean by free will? What does the church mean by free will?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 03:36:37 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,211
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2017, 03:39:26 PM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2017, 03:41:16 PM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • Faith: Inquiring
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2017, 03:50:12 PM »
IF hell is a literal fire(as many believe), then I doubt anyone who is there wants to be there. I don't want a tyrant God. Nor do I want a God who gives up on me as soon as I am dead and in hell by "respecting my decision". I doubt that many people in hell have made an honest decision FOR eternal hell. What do you by the way mean by free will? What does the church mean by free will?

I don't know if the fire of Hell is literal/material or just metaphorical. My guess is God doesn't give up on you and still loves you, but you consciously reject Him and suffer for that reason, just as in life there are many people who voluntarily reject and are estranged from God and suffer from that estrangement. Another example would be that "burning" feeling you have when you sin consciously and are ashamed. How much more can you be ashamed and "burn" in shame before God Himself? You will say, many sinners would surely repent when directly faced by God. In my opinion, repentance is only possible where the possibility of change exists, that is, only in a temporal reality. And one can guess that eternity is something very different in nature to "just a very, very long period of time".

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,211
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2017, 03:57:19 PM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

Maybe today, but not in three weeks. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2017, 03:58:23 PM »
IF hell is a literal fire(as many believe), then I doubt anyone who is there wants to be there. I don't want a tyrant God. Nor do I want a God who gives up on me as soon as I am dead and in hell by "respecting my decision". I doubt that many people in hell have made an honest decision FOR eternal hell. What do you by the way mean by free will? What does the church mean by free will?

I don't know if the fire of Hell is literal/material or just metaphorical. My guess is God doesn't give up on you and still loves you, but you consciously reject Him and suffer for that reason, just as in life there are many people who voluntarily reject and are estranged from God and suffer from that estrangement. Another example would be that "burning" feeling you have when you sin consciously and are ashamed. How much more can you be ashamed and "burn" in shame before God Himself? You will say, many sinners would surely repent when directly faced by God. In my opinion, repentance is only possible where the possibility of change exists, that is, only in a temporal reality. And one can guess that eternity is something very different in nature to "just a very, very long period of time".
I understand what you are saying and it makes some sense I guess... Eternity is of course not about "endless duration of time"... But rather timelessness... Hm... Well... I guess it is a mystery...
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2017, 04:32:36 PM »
Leopardi gives the greatest explanation of how life is for man. Two different translations:

Little old white-haired man,
weak, half-naked, barefoot,
with an enormous burden on his back,
up mountain and down valley,
over sharp rocks, across deep sands and bracken,
through wind and storm,
when it's hot and later when it freezes,
runs on, running till he's out of breath,
fords rivers, wades through swamps,
falls and rises and rushes on
faster and faster, no rest or relief,
battered, bloodied; till at last he comes
to where his way
and all his effort led him:
terrible, immense abyss
into which he falls, forgetting everything.
This, o virgin moon,
is human life.

Man is born by labor,
and birth itself means risking death.
The first thing that he feels
is pain and torment, and from the outset
mother and father
seek to comfort him for being born.
As he grows,
they nurture him,
and constantly by word and deed
seek to instill courage,
consoling him for being human.
Parents can do no more loving thing
for their offspring.
But why bring to light,
why educate
someone we'll console for living later on?
If life is misery,
why do we tolerate it?
This, unblemished moon,
is mortal nature.


  An old man, gray, infirm,
  Half-clad, and barefoot, he,
  Beneath his burden bending wearily,
  O'er mountain and o'er vale,
  Sharp rocks, and briars, and burning sand,
  In wind, and storm, alike in sultry heat
  And in the winter's cold,
  His constant course doth hold;
  On, on, he, panting, goes,
  Nor pause, nor rest he knows;
  Through rushing torrents, over watery wastes;
  He falls, gets up again,
  And ever more and more he hastes,
  Torn, bleeding, and arrives at last
  Where ends the path,
  Where all his troubles end;
  A vast abyss and horrible,
  Where plunging headlong, he forgets them all.
  Such scene of suffering, and of strife,
  O moon, is our mortal life.
  In travail man is born;
  His birth too oft the cause of death,
  And with his earliest breath
  He pain and torment feels: e'en from the first,
  His parents fondly strive
  To comfort him in his distress;
  And if he lives and grows,
  They struggle hard, as best they may,
  With pleasant words and deeds to cheer him up,
  And seek with kindly care,
  To strengthen him his cruel lot to bear.
  This is the best that they can do
  For the poor child, however fond and true.
  But wherefore give him life?
  Why bring him up at all,
  If this be all?
  If life is nought but pain and care,
  Why, why should we the burden bear?
  Why all these starry fires?   
  What means this infinite air, and what the   
  Depths of the heavens? What is the meaning   
  Of all this solitude boundless? And I, what am I?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 04:37:03 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline michaelus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
  • Faith: Inquiring
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2017, 04:34:52 PM »
Leopardi gives the greatest explanation of how life is for man:

  [snip]
  Why bring him up at all,
  If this be all?
  If life is nought but pain and care,
  Why, why should we the burden bear?

'Cause God told us to, basically.  ;)
"A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.'" - St. Anthony The Great

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,594
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2017, 06:34:40 PM »
Leopardi gives the greatest explanation of how life is for man. Two different translations:

[cynical doggerel]

This Leopardi is not a Father of our church. However, as long as we're consulting heterodox saints, here's my counter:

Quote from: Robert Barrett Browning
The year's at the spring,
    And day's at the morn;
        Morning's at seven;
            The hill-side's dew-pearled;
The lark's on the wing;
    The snail's on the thorn;
        God's in His heaven --
            All's right with the world!

And then of course there's the orthodox counter -- many, but in this case from St. Paul:

Quote
Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice!
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alxandra

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,042
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #106 on: June 07, 2017, 03:18:45 AM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it”
+Elder Arsenie Papacioc

Blog http://the-woman-is-the-heart.tumblr.com/

Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/thewomanistheheart/

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #107 on: June 07, 2017, 03:31:12 AM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises. That is What I have experienced. I have really honestly tried for a year to return, to receive help etc... I feel completely rejected. In the bible I find more hate than love towards me these days.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #108 on: June 07, 2017, 03:45:58 AM »
Let me just make one thing Clear. If the hideous dogma of augustinian predestination and every western idea of predestination that follows from it was true, then it is impossible to truly have faith in God, let alone in a loving God. It is a doctrine made up by selfish cowards.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,594
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #109 on: June 07, 2017, 04:47:58 AM »
Let me just make one thing Clear. If the hideous dogma of augustinian predestination and every western idea of predestination that follows from it was true, then it is impossible to truly have faith in God, let alone in a loving God. It is a doctrine made up by selfish cowards.

Let me interrupt this broken record to point out a contradiction here. Either something is "true" or something is "made up," but you are accusing what you call predestination of both. So, if it is "made up by selfish cowards," then you should go merrily on your way and never think about it again. But if it is "true," then your railing about it isn't going to scare it away; suck it up like a man.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #110 on: June 07, 2017, 04:56:21 AM »
Let me just make one thing Clear. If the hideous dogma of augustinian predestination and every western idea of predestination that follows from it was true, then it is impossible to truly have faith in God, let alone in a loving God. It is a doctrine made up by selfish cowards.

Let me interrupt this broken record to point out a contradiction here. Either something is "true" or something is "made up," but you are accusing what you call predestination of both. So, if it is "made up by selfish cowards," then you should go merrily on your way and never think about it again. But if it is "true," then your railing about it isn't going to scare it away; suck it up like a man.
I Said if it WAS true. Not that it is. So now though the question arises: Is it made up or is it true? If it is true then the old testament saying remains valid: "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!". But to that I would like to add "and be tortured in hell forever, which was determined by God before the foundation of the world!".
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,594
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #111 on: June 07, 2017, 05:18:08 AM »
I Said if it WAS true. ...

Yeah. You said if it were true, it would be made up.

Quote
... If it is true then the old testament saying remains valid: "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!".

That's not from the Old Testament. That's from a parable of Christ's.

Quote
But to that I would like to add "and be tortured in hell forever, which was determined by God before the foundation of the world!".

Now you're talking!
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #112 on: June 07, 2017, 06:06:24 AM »
I Said if it WAS true. ...

Yeah. You said if it were true, it would be made up.

Quote
... If it is true then the old testament saying remains valid: "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!".

That's not from the Old Testament. That's from a parable of Christ's.

Quote
But to that I would like to add "and be tortured in hell forever, which was determined by God before the foundation of the world!".

Now you're talking!
I am quite sure  "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" is from Isaiah 22. I am quite certain I have read it there...

Okay I see what you mean. Anyhow. Is it true or not?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 06:07:54 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alxandra

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,042
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #113 on: June 07, 2017, 10:13:11 AM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it”
+Elder Arsenie Papacioc

Blog http://the-woman-is-the-heart.tumblr.com/

Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/thewomanistheheart/

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #114 on: June 07, 2017, 05:46:03 PM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
Maybe... anyway, to be honest, I am very sorry that the following is what both my reason and my heart tells me right now no matter how much I pray; to call God love seems like a slander to love if God wants also to judge, punish and demand venegance. The argument of "Justice and holiness" is completely silly and ridiculous since his justice and holiness should not in any way cancel out his love if he truly us love. And eternal punishment in a literal fire is not love in any sense of the word. Honestly sometines I think that love should never even see sins in need of forgiveness.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 05:48:36 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,594
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #115 on: June 07, 2017, 06:01:30 PM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
Maybe... anyway, to be honest, I am very sorry that the following is what both my reason and my heart tells me right now no matter how much I pray; to call God love seems like a slander to love if God wants also to judge, punish and demand venegance. The argument of "Justice and holiness" is completely silly and ridiculous since his justice and holiness should not in any way cancel out his love if he truly us love. And eternal punishment in a literal fire is not love in any sense of the word. Honestly sometines I think that love should never even see sins in need of forgiveness.

That's what I tell my doctor when she orders another MRI -- why would a lover of the human physiology even want to know about disease.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2017, 06:09:50 PM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
Maybe... anyway, to be honest, I am very sorry that the following is what both my reason and my heart tells me right now no matter how much I pray; to call God love seems like a slander to love if God wants also to judge, punish and demand venegance. The argument of "Justice and holiness" is completely silly and ridiculous since his justice and holiness should not in any way cancel out his love if he truly us love. And eternal punishment in a literal fire is not love in any sense of the word. Honestly sometines I think that love should never even see sins in need of forgiveness.

That's what I tell my doctor when she orders another MRI -- why would a lover of the human physiology even want to know about disease.
If you view sin in an ontological way yes... But most Christians think of sin as most of all a moral/legal/juridical trangression. Which is a slander against Love.

Christianity was meant to solve the problem of death. As it seems to me, it has in reality made death a much greater problem. Why? It spread around the world and threatened People with eternal damnation and God's fearful judgment.  If one doesn't believe in the christian God, one doesn't have to be afraid of dying.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 06:21:45 PM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,211
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #117 on: June 07, 2017, 06:25:01 PM »
Christianity was meant to solve the problem of death. As it seems to me, it has in reality made death a much greater problem. Why? It spread around the world and threatened People with eternal damnation and God's fearful judgment.  If one doesn't believe in the christian God, one doesn't have to be afraid of dying.

Your new nickname is "Antinasius". 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2017, 06:29:09 PM »
Christianity was meant to solve the problem of death. As it seems to me, it has in reality made death a much greater problem. Why? It spread around the world and threatened People with eternal damnation and God's fearful judgment.  If one doesn't believe in the christian God, one doesn't have to be afraid of dying.

Your new nickname is "Antinasius".
Good name! I like it. The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Ο προκαθήμενος της Ορθοδοξίας - The President of Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,211
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #119 on: June 07, 2017, 06:32:10 PM »
Christianity was meant to solve the problem of death. As it seems to me, it has in reality made death a much greater problem. Why? It spread around the world and threatened People with eternal damnation and God's fearful judgment.  If one doesn't believe in the christian God, one doesn't have to be afraid of dying.

Your new nickname is "Antinasius".
Good name! I like it.

Oh boy...

Quote
The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.

What if the absolute nothingness of death is just the pause before a cosmic "peek-a-boo!!"? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2017, 06:42:25 PM »
Christianity was meant to solve the problem of death. As it seems to me, it has in reality made death a much greater problem. Why? It spread around the world and threatened People with eternal damnation and God's fearful judgment.  If one doesn't believe in the christian God, one doesn't have to be afraid of dying.

Your new nickname is "Antinasius".
Good name! I like it.

Oh boy...

Quote
The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.

What if the absolute nothingness of death is just the pause before a cosmic "peek-a-boo!!"?
I mean it. And organized christianity should apologize for the torments they have caused upon naturally depressed and sensitive souls with their disgusting fire and brimstone -preaching.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,899
  • Excelsior
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #121 on: June 07, 2017, 06:44:06 PM »
Christianity was meant to solve the problem of death. As it seems to me, it has in reality made death a much greater problem. Why? It spread around the world and threatened People with eternal damnation and God's fearful judgment.  If one doesn't believe in the christian God, one doesn't have to be afraid of dying.

Your new nickname is "Antinasius".
Good name! I like it.

Oh boy...

Quote
The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.

What if the absolute nothingness of death is just the pause before a cosmic "peek-a-boo!!"?
I mean it. And organized christianity should apologize for the torments they have caused upon naturally depressed and sensitive souls with their disgusting fire and brimstone -preaching.

Can you please stop?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #122 on: June 07, 2017, 07:01:15 PM »
Christianity was meant to solve the problem of death. As it seems to me, it has in reality made death a much greater problem. Why? It spread around the world and threatened People with eternal damnation and God's fearful judgment.  If one doesn't believe in the christian God, one doesn't have to be afraid of dying.

Your new nickname is "Antinasius".
Good name! I like it.

Oh boy...

Quote
The absolute nothingness of death would be a blessing. Something to look forward to.

What if the absolute nothingness of death is just the pause before a cosmic "peek-a-boo!!"?
I mean it. And organized christianity should apologize for the torments they have caused upon naturally depressed and sensitive souls with their disgusting fire and brimstone -preaching.

Can you please stop?
If Christians stop with things like this:

"The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss."

1785 “Here all judges have a mixture of mercy, but the wrath of God will be poured out upon the wicked without mixture. Imagine yourself to be cast into a fiery oven…and imagine also that your body were to lie there for a quarter of an hour, full of fire, as full within and without as a bright coal fire, all the while full of quick sense; what horror would you feel at the entrance of such a furnace? Oh! Then how would your heart sink if you knew that after millions and millions of ages your torment would be no nearer to an end than ever it was. But your torment in hell will be immensely greater than this illustration represents.”

Both quotes by Jonathan Edwards
But yes I Will stop and I apologize
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,899
  • Excelsior
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #123 on: June 07, 2017, 07:22:03 PM »
Who cares about Jonathan Edwards? He's not Orthodox.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Ainnir

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,237
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #124 on: June 07, 2017, 08:18:16 PM »
Who cares about Jonathan Edwards? He's not Orthodox.

+1
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 08:18:51 PM by Ainnir »
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Alxandra

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,042
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2017, 03:21:09 AM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
Maybe... anyway, to be honest, I am very sorry that the following is what both my reason and my heart tells me right now no matter how much I pray; to call God love seems like a slander to love if God wants also to judge, punish and demand venegance. The argument of "Justice and holiness" is completely silly and ridiculous since his justice and holiness should not in any way cancel out his love if he truly us love. And eternal punishment in a literal fire is not love in any sense of the word. Honestly sometines I think that love should never even see sins in need of forgiveness.


Does a father still love his child when he has done something self-destructive and he is strict with him wanting him to become better? Absolutely, he is a good father if he does that and loves him very much :) He wants better for his child. He wouldn't be a good father if he enabled bad behavior and was happy with whatever the child did, even if it was self destructive.

Also it is our choice to sin and suffer, not God's fault. We are choosing whether to be close to Him and Truth or not. It is through our actions, and God gave us the free will to choose, he will not force us. He waits for us and loves us because he wants us to have eternal life and love, the path of sin is self destructive and God doesn't want that for us. 

Also, while you are choosing to read quotes from other denominations instead of listening to the truth of the church, you are viewing salvation in a false way. Again, something you can't blame God for, you are choosing to do that. However the truth still remains whether you want to seek it or not.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 03:27:34 AM by Alxandra »
"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it”
+Elder Arsenie Papacioc

Blog http://the-woman-is-the-heart.tumblr.com/

Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/thewomanistheheart/

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2017, 03:45:28 AM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
Maybe... anyway, to be honest, I am very sorry that the following is what both my reason and my heart tells me right now no matter how much I pray; to call God love seems like a slander to love if God wants also to judge, punish and demand venegance. The argument of "Justice and holiness" is completely silly and ridiculous since his justice and holiness should not in any way cancel out his love if he truly us love. And eternal punishment in a literal fire is not love in any sense of the word. Honestly sometines I think that love should never even see sins in need of forgiveness.


Does a father still love his child when he has done something self-destructive and he is strict with him wanting him to become better? Absolutely, he is a good father if he does that and loves him very much :) He wants better for his child. He wouldn't be a good father if he enabled bad behavior and was happy with whatever the child did, even if it was self destructive.

Also it is our choice to sin and suffer, not God's fault. We are choosing whether to be close to Him and Truth or not. It is through our actions, and God gave us the free will to choose, he will not force us. He waits for us and loves us because he wants us to have eternal life and love, the path of sin is self destructive and God doesn't want that for us. 

Also, while you are choosing to read quotes from other denominations instead of listening to the truth of the church, you are viewing salvation in a false way. Again, something you can't blame God for, you are choosing to do that. However the truth still remains whether you want to seek it or not.
I Hope Hope you are right. But the view of God given to me from reformed christianity is very hard to escape from. Exceptionally hard. And IMO nothing is more disgusting than Calvinism etc. The Words of Jonathan Edwards are more evil than those of Hitler IMO.

Simone Weil once Said that all religions who speak about God as someone who wants to display his power through brute force as soon as he can are false. Every religion that speaks of God as someone who freely denies himself are true. Calvinism in her Words would be a pagan and anti-Christian religion. And we shall remember that all great art is self-Denial. God displays his power by not displaying it, he shows his power by the cross
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 03:51:14 AM by beebert »
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,594
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #127 on: June 08, 2017, 03:51:48 AM »
And we shall remember that all great art is self-Denial.

Don't quit your day job.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alxandra

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,042
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #128 on: June 08, 2017, 03:55:53 AM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
Maybe... anyway, to be honest, I am very sorry that the following is what both my reason and my heart tells me right now no matter how much I pray; to call God love seems like a slander to love if God wants also to judge, punish and demand venegance. The argument of "Justice and holiness" is completely silly and ridiculous since his justice and holiness should not in any way cancel out his love if he truly us love. And eternal punishment in a literal fire is not love in any sense of the word. Honestly sometines I think that love should never even see sins in need of forgiveness.


Does a father still love his child when he has done something self-destructive and he is strict with him wanting him to become better? Absolutely, he is a good father if he does that and loves him very much :) He wants better for his child. He wouldn't be a good father if he enabled bad behavior and was happy with whatever the child did, even if it was self destructive.

Also it is our choice to sin and suffer, not God's fault. We are choosing whether to be close to Him and Truth or not. It is through our actions, and God gave us the free will to choose, he will not force us. He waits for us and loves us because he wants us to have eternal life and love, the path of sin is self destructive and God doesn't want that for us. 

Also, while you are choosing to read quotes from other denominations instead of listening to the truth of the church, you are viewing salvation in a false way. Again, something you can't blame God for, you are choosing to do that. However the truth still remains whether you want to seek it or not.
I Hope Hope you are right. But the view of God given to me from reformed christianity is very hard to escape from. Exceptionally hard. And IMO nothing is more disgusting than Calvinism etc. The Words of Jonathan Edwards are more evil than those of Hitler IMO.

Simone Weil once Said that all religions who speak about God as someone who wants to display his power through brute force as soon as he can are false. Every religion that speaks of God as someone who freely denies himself are true. Calvinism in her Words would be a pagan and anti-Christian religion. And we shall remember that all great art is self-Denial.

Once again, to heal the false views given to you, the medicine is in the church :) It will be hard, we will have to abandon many of our false views and many views we don't know are false, we will have to sacrifice our desires for the sake of Christ, but if we were spiritually healthy we wouldn't need it to begin with (which we know we very much do need healing!). I pray you can trust your spiritual father to guide your soul to God's Truth. That is the only way, the Church is the hospital for the souls and the spiritual father is like a doctor. He is able to see sins in us we don't have the wisdom to see, just like a doctor is able to best figure out and know the treatment for an illness.
"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it”
+Elder Arsenie Papacioc

Blog http://the-woman-is-the-heart.tumblr.com/

Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/thewomanistheheart/

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 36,245
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #129 on: June 08, 2017, 04:01:13 AM »
And IMO nothing is more disgusting than Calvinism etc.

Not even Mitch McConnell?

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #130 on: June 08, 2017, 04:10:45 AM »
And we shall remember that all great art is self-Denial.

Don't quit your day job.
Will not. I will try to deny myself in my art;)
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #131 on: June 08, 2017, 04:11:57 AM »
And IMO nothing is more disgusting than Calvinism etc.

Not even Mitch McConnell?
No. Nothing. Not A single thing on earth. Calvinism distort the truth and blaspheme Christ like nothing else.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Faith: Übermensch
  • Jurisdiction: Nietzsche
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #132 on: June 08, 2017, 04:12:26 AM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
Maybe... anyway, to be honest, I am very sorry that the following is what both my reason and my heart tells me right now no matter how much I pray; to call God love seems like a slander to love if God wants also to judge, punish and demand venegance. The argument of "Justice and holiness" is completely silly and ridiculous since his justice and holiness should not in any way cancel out his love if he truly us love. And eternal punishment in a literal fire is not love in any sense of the word. Honestly sometines I think that love should never even see sins in need of forgiveness.


Does a father still love his child when he has done something self-destructive and he is strict with him wanting him to become better? Absolutely, he is a good father if he does that and loves him very much :) He wants better for his child. He wouldn't be a good father if he enabled bad behavior and was happy with whatever the child did, even if it was self destructive.

Also it is our choice to sin and suffer, not God's fault. We are choosing whether to be close to Him and Truth or not. It is through our actions, and God gave us the free will to choose, he will not force us. He waits for us and loves us because he wants us to have eternal life and love, the path of sin is self destructive and God doesn't want that for us. 

Also, while you are choosing to read quotes from other denominations instead of listening to the truth of the church, you are viewing salvation in a false way. Again, something you can't blame God for, you are choosing to do that. However the truth still remains whether you want to seek it or not.
I Hope Hope you are right. But the view of God given to me from reformed christianity is very hard to escape from. Exceptionally hard. And IMO nothing is more disgusting than Calvinism etc. The Words of Jonathan Edwards are more evil than those of Hitler IMO.

Simone Weil once Said that all religions who speak about God as someone who wants to display his power through brute force as soon as he can are false. Every religion that speaks of God as someone who freely denies himself are true. Calvinism in her Words would be a pagan and anti-Christian religion. And we shall remember that all great art is self-Denial.

Once again, to heal the false views given to you, the medicine is in the church :) It will be hard, we will have to abandon many of our false views and many views we don't know are false, we will have to sacrifice our desires for the sake of Christ, but if we were spiritually healthy we wouldn't need it to begin with (which we know we very much do need healing!). I pray you can trust your spiritual father to guide your soul to God's Truth. That is the only way, the Church is the hospital for the souls and the spiritual father is like a doctor. He is able to see sins in us we don't have the wisdom to see, just like a doctor is able to best figure out and know the treatment for an illness.
Thank you
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Alxandra

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,042
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Need tips on how to deal with faith
« Reply #133 on: June 08, 2017, 07:00:00 AM »
What does the church mean by free will?

Would you even care?
Yes of course!

You are free to choose to sin and follow your own will. God will not force us to follow Him. Or you can choose to struggle to follow God's Will which is through the life of the church(attending liturgy, confession and obeying a spiritual father, communion,  etc). Although He will not force us, He eagerly like a loving father waits for us and embraces us when we return to Him :)
That last part is the thing I have NOT experienced. God Waits like a loving father on his own chosen ones. The rest he despises.

That's just not true, but as stated before you are free to choose to think that way. Of course choosing to think a way that is not truthful will hurt us spiritually though.

If we want to heal our souls and grow closer to Christ, we have to choose to abandon all our false ideas and desires, and pick up Christs. On our own we can't do that, we are full of falsehood and delusion, we need the medicine of the church :) That's why its there. But we are free to interpret the Bible and spirituality however we like and become bitter and delusional.

Regardless of what you feel, the Church tells us God waits for us like a dear father and is pained when we are far from Him. And thank God we follow the wisdom of the church and not always our own feelings.
Maybe... anyway, to be honest, I am very sorry that the following is what both my reason and my heart tells me right now no matter how much I pray; to call God love seems like a slander to love if God wants also to judge, punish and demand venegance. The argument of "Justice and holiness" is completely silly and ridiculous since his justice and holiness should not in any way cancel out his love if he truly us love. And eternal punishment in a literal fire is not love in any sense of the word. Honestly sometines I think that love should never even see sins in need of forgiveness.


Does a father still love his child when he has done something self-destructive and he is strict with him wanting him to become better? Absolutely, he is a good father if he does that and loves him very much :) He wants better for his child. He wouldn't be a good father if he enabled bad behavior and was happy with whatever the child did, even if it was self destructive.

Also it is our choice to sin and suffer, not God's fault. We are choosing whether to be close to Him and Truth or not. It is through our actions, and God gave us the free will to choose, he will not force us. He waits for us and loves us because he wants us to have eternal life and love, the path of sin is self destructive and God doesn't want that for us. 

Also, while you are choosing to read quotes from other denominations instead of listening to the truth of the church, you are viewing salvation in a false way. Again, something you can't blame God for, you are choosing to do that. However the truth still remains whether you want to seek it or not.
I Hope Hope you are right. But the view of God given to me from reformed christianity is very hard to escape from. Exceptionally hard. And IMO nothing is more disgusting than Calvinism etc. The Words of Jonathan Edwards are more evil than those of Hitler IMO.

Simone Weil once Said that all religions who speak about God as someone who wants to display his power through brute force as soon as he can are false. Every religion that speaks of God as someone who freely denies himself are true. Calvinism in her Words would be a pagan and anti-Christian religion. And we shall remember that all great art is self-Denial.

Once again, to heal the false views given to you, the medicine is in the church :) It will be hard, we will have to abandon many of our false views and many views we don't know are false, we will have to sacrifice our desires for the sake of Christ, but if we were spiritually healthy we wouldn't need it to begin with (which we know we very much do need healing!). I pray you can trust your spiritual father to guide your soul to God's Truth. That is the only way, the Church is the hospital for the souls and the spiritual father is like a doctor. He is able to see sins in us we don't have the wisdom to see, just like a doctor is able to best figure out and know the treatment for an illness.
Thank you

You're most welcome dear friend. I hope Christ and our dear Panagia are always with you.
"And if the man is the head of the family then the woman is the heart, and this heart is made by God that He may find rest in it”
+Elder Arsenie Papacioc

Blog http://the-woman-is-the-heart.tumblr.com/

Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/thewomanistheheart/