Author Topic: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism  (Read 4231 times)

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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #180 on: September 15, 2018, 10:06:02 PM »
You must choose. Orthodoxy doesn't need heresy. It's intellectually unsustainable at this point that both sides are orthodox. If you think the RCC is orthodox and the EOC is heretical, our predominance of the Easteen rite is irrelevant and so is your choice of Western/Eastern rite, theologically speaking. If you think the EOC is orthodox and the RCC is heretical, the timidness of our Western rite is irrelevant, just like the timidness of the Russian Catholic Church is (seriously, if the EOC gets so much BS for the few millions of Western converts, what's up for the total irrelevance of the RCC among natives in the largest Old World Christian nation?).
'Cause Fatima?
I think Fatima should solve this elephant in the room rather than cause it.  :laugh:  Also, I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Russia has far less Catholics now than in the time of Fatima, both due to Atheistisation (secularisation is not a proper way to call what happened in the USSR), the emigration of Catholic ethnic minorities (or genocide/deportation, I don't know the dimension of the shameful persecution against Eastern European Germans within Russia itself) and the destruction of the Russian Catholic Church.
There are about 140,000 Catholics in Russia.  There were 500,000 before the Soviets.  Most of the Germans, Ukrainians, Poles and Belarusians deported to Siberia returned to their home countries.
Half a million in today's Russia or in the whole empire?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #181 on: September 15, 2018, 10:31:59 PM »
You must choose. Orthodoxy doesn't need heresy. It's intellectually unsustainable at this point that both sides are orthodox. If you think the RCC is orthodox and the EOC is heretical, our predominance of the Easteen rite is irrelevant and so is your choice of Western/Eastern rite, theologically speaking. If you think the EOC is orthodox and the RCC is heretical, the timidness of our Western rite is irrelevant, just like the timidness of the Russian Catholic Church is (seriously, if the EOC gets so much BS for the few millions of Western converts, what's up for the total irrelevance of the RCC among natives in the largest Old World Christian nation?).
'Cause Fatima?
I think Fatima should solve this elephant in the room rather than cause it.  :laugh:  Also, I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Russia has far less Catholics now than in the time of Fatima, both due to Atheistisation (secularisation is not a proper way to call what happened in the USSR), the emigration of Catholic ethnic minorities (or genocide/deportation, I don't know the dimension of the shameful persecution against Eastern European Germans within Russia itself) and the destruction of the Russian Catholic Church.

Sorry, I mean "Because of Fatima." A Trad RC could just argue that the reason Russia today has so (comparatively) few Catholics is because the Popes are disobeying the Theotokos's request to explicitly consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart. I'm guessing that they envision a mass conversion of Russian Orthodox if that ever happens.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 10:32:13 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #182 on: September 15, 2018, 11:56:23 PM »
You must choose. Orthodoxy doesn't need heresy. It's intellectually unsustainable at this point that both sides are orthodox. If you think the RCC is orthodox and the EOC is heretical, our predominance of the Easteen rite is irrelevant and so is your choice of Western/Eastern rite, theologically speaking. If you think the EOC is orthodox and the RCC is heretical, the timidness of our Western rite is irrelevant, just like the timidness of the Russian Catholic Church is (seriously, if the EOC gets so much BS for the few millions of Western converts, what's up for the total irrelevance of the RCC among natives in the largest Old World Christian nation?).
'Cause Fatima?
I think Fatima should solve this elephant in the room rather than cause it.  :laugh:  Also, I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Russia has far less Catholics now than in the time of Fatima, both due to Atheistisation (secularisation is not a proper way to call what happened in the USSR), the emigration of Catholic ethnic minorities (or genocide/deportation, I don't know the dimension of the shameful persecution against Eastern European Germans within Russia itself) and the destruction of the Russian Catholic Church.
There are about 140,000 Catholics in Russia.  There were 500,000 before the Soviets.  Most of the Germans, Ukrainians, Poles and Belarusians deported to Siberia returned to their home countries.
Half a million in today's Russia or in the whole empire?
Russia.  Ukraine had a few million.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #183 on: September 16, 2018, 12:02:18 AM »
Russia.  Ukraine had a few million.
Oh, sure. Dumb question.
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Offline noahzarc1

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #184 on: September 16, 2018, 01:10:17 AM »
I think I’m moving towards Eastern Catholicism, specifically Melkite Catholicism (due to it having a special place in my heart). I see Eastern Catholicism as a repaired bridge between us and the West.

You will have Francis as your head, with universal jurisdiction. Read Vatican I, then look carefully at Francis and see if he fits the bill of what was promulgated there and whether you can be in communion with him.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #185 on: September 16, 2018, 02:11:08 PM »
I don't think even the RCC Pope claims to have monarchical powers over the whole church in the whole world anymore.

Of course he does.  Whether or not he tweets it out or exercises the right often is beside the point.

Quote
He knows very well most non-RCC don't listen to him, and his "kingdom" is a tiny slice of land with only about 250 residents. Supposedly all celibate, so when they die, nothing.

There was never a time when RC Popes did not know that there were people on earth who did not accept their authority, but that never stopped them before.

Indeed, Pope Francis relied on those monarchial powers to enforce his will upon the otherwise ostensibly Sovereign Military Order of Malta, for daring to oppose contraception.
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Offline biro

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #186 on: September 16, 2018, 02:26:55 PM »
I don't think even the RCC Pope claims to have monarchical powers over the whole church in the whole world anymore.

Of course he does.  Whether or not he tweets it out or exercises the right often is beside the point.

Quote
He knows very well most non-RCC don't listen to him, and his "kingdom" is a tiny slice of land with only about 250 residents. Supposedly all celibate, so when they die, nothing.

There was never a time when RC Popes did not know that there were people on earth who did not accept their authority, but that never stopped them before.

Indeed, Pope Francis relied on those monarchial powers to enforce his will upon the otherwise ostensibly Sovereign Military Order of Malta, for daring to oppose contraception.

Yes, so many people. The Military Order of Malta.

By the way, the Pope opposes artificial contraception too.

I guess some people are always going to be paranoid about the Pope, no matter what he does.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #187 on: September 16, 2018, 02:38:52 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant here to the OP. I tell you a secret:
The bishop of Rome is not that important in everyday life! Yes, he is mentioned in the liturgy along with the bishop. Yes, we pray for him: He has maybe the most challenging task on this planet, may the Paraclite grant him wisdom. But it seems to me that some people on this board spend more time thinking about him than most Catholics :D .
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #188 on: September 16, 2018, 04:07:20 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.
Quote
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #189 on: September 16, 2018, 04:44:46 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant here to the OP. I tell you a secret:
The bishop of Rome is not that important in everyday life! Yes, he is mentioned in the liturgy along with the bishop. Yes, we pray for him: He has maybe the most challenging task on this planet, may the Paraclite grant him wisdom. But it seems to me that some people on this board spend more time thinking about him than most Catholics :D .

But it is the only thing relevant to the OP. If the Pope is Supreme and Infallible, then every other point of contention between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is either resolved or becomes comparatively irrelevant (no matter how many times this truth is actually mentioned in the average Catholic context).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 04:45:28 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline biro

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #190 on: September 16, 2018, 04:50:16 PM »
You're Protestant.
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Offline biro

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #191 on: September 16, 2018, 04:51:20 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.

You mean he wasn't the bishop of Rome until the early 11th Century?

There are several saints who could tell you otherwise.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #192 on: September 16, 2018, 04:56:28 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.

You mean he wasn't the bishop of Rome until the early 11th Century?

There are several saints who could tell you otherwise.

Bishop of Rome= global micromanaging rock star. Thank you biro for another great insight.
Quote
When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #193 on: September 16, 2018, 05:18:14 PM »
You're Protestant.

Yes, and the Pope is the main reason to be or not be Protestant over Catholic, as well.

And my reasons for having not having converted to Orthodoxy yet are almost entirely logistical.
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Offline biro

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #194 on: September 16, 2018, 05:19:23 PM »
You're Protestant.

Yes, and the Pope is the main reason to be or not be Protestant over Catholic, as well.

And my reasons for having not having converted to Orthodoxy yet are almost entirely logistical.

So, neither.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #195 on: September 16, 2018, 05:22:11 PM »
You guys dogmatized him into a global micromanaging rock star, not us.

This. I understand that many Orthodox critiques of papacy might seem unfair as in practice the pope is not charge of everything. But that doesn't make Pastor Aeternus etc. to go away. It's up to Catholics to provide either interpretation of these documents that doesn't make the pope a micromanaging rock star or either do away with these documents entirely.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #196 on: September 16, 2018, 05:24:45 PM »
You're Protestant.

Yes, and the Pope is the main reason to be or not be Protestant over Catholic, as well.

And my reasons for having not having converted to Orthodoxy yet are almost entirely logistical.

So, neither.

Neither what? Neither Protestant nor Orthodox? Yes, that's true to a large extent.

But like I've said before, my current faith designation feels like the most honest with respect to both my background and where I am currently. Were I to just put "Almost Orthodox" or "Inquirer" or "Orthodox in my heart" or something, I would feel like I wasn't being quite as forthright. "Evangelical by default" is an imperfect solution, but it's the only one I've got.

Let's not derail this thread, though. If you really want to talk about me for some reason, start a thread about it and I'll respond.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 05:26:36 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #197 on: September 16, 2018, 05:28:19 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

Offline melkite

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #198 on: September 16, 2018, 07:20:13 PM »
“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

What is the OO stance on these two issues?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #199 on: September 16, 2018, 08:11:33 PM »
“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

What is the OO stance on these two issues?

It’s different from the RC stance, if only on paper.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #200 on: September 16, 2018, 08:40:28 PM »
“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

What is the OO stance on these two issues?

It’s different from the RC stance, if only on paper.

Not that the RC stance winds up being more than "on paper" half the time.
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Offline melkite

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #201 on: September 16, 2018, 09:53:13 PM »
“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

What is the OO stance on these two issues?

It’s different from the RC stance, if only on paper.

How does it differ from the EO stance?  Or is it the same?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 09:54:04 PM by melkite »

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #202 on: September 17, 2018, 05:58:05 AM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #203 on: September 17, 2018, 08:14:14 AM »
You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

You can fry bigger fish without setting two standards or redefining holiness.  :)  If illness, busyness, or laziness prevent me from mopping my floor, I don't call the resulting state "clean."  I may say other things were more important, but the standard of cleanliness isn't redefined just because I couldn't or wouldn't meet it.  And do we really think God will call me to account in the same manner and to the same degree if the cause were illness vs. laziness?  The difference is what was done with the capacity I had.  Hopefully that makes sense.  And this is just an analogy; I believe God cares much more about the purity of my heart than that of my floors.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #204 on: September 17, 2018, 11:01:52 AM »
I'm a little confused as to what the point of this aside is.

Lepanto says that a lot of Orthodox are way too obsessed with the Pope and think he's the only important thing for Catholics to consider in not becoming Orthodox. Mor responds that this doesn't matter because a lot of Catholics are way too obsessed with divorce and contraception and think these are the only important things for Orthodox to consider in not becoming Catholic (I think?).
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #205 on: September 17, 2018, 01:38:17 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

I’d happily join you in frying fish on any Friday of your choosing.

Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #206 on: September 17, 2018, 02:02:42 PM »
I'm a little confused as to what the point of this aside is.

Lepanto says that a lot of Orthodox are way too obsessed with the Pope and think he's the only important thing for Catholics to consider in not becoming Orthodox. Mor responds that this doesn't matter because a lot of Catholics are way too obsessed with divorce and contraception and think these are the only important things for Orthodox to consider in not becoming Catholic (I think?).
Dunno, ask Mor. He is the master of cryptic insinuations.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #207 on: September 17, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

I’d happily join you in frying fish on any Friday of your choosing.
Why Friday (Fryday?). Come on, you can do better than that.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 02:04:53 PM by Lepanto »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #208 on: September 17, 2018, 05:27:48 PM »
I'm a little confused as to what the point of this aside is.

Lepanto says that a lot of Orthodox are way too obsessed with the Pope and think he's the only important thing for Catholics to consider in not becoming Orthodox. Mor responds that this doesn't matter because a lot of Catholics are way too obsessed with divorce and contraception and think these are the only important things for Orthodox to consider in not becoming Catholic (I think?).
Dunno, ask Mor. He is the master of cryptic insinuations.

It wasn’t very cryptic if you understood it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #209 on: September 17, 2018, 05:28:33 PM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

I’d happily join you in frying fish on any Friday of your choosing.
Why Friday (Fryday?). Come on, you can do better than that.

I figured it was a fasting day for both of us. 

Offline hecma925

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #210 on: September 17, 2018, 05:32:14 PM »
Fish fry is good any day.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Moving towards Eastern Catholicism
« Reply #211 on: September 18, 2018, 01:49:49 AM »
The pope. The pope. The pope. Like it is the only thing relevant...

“Divorce.  Divorce.  Divorce.”

“Contraception.  Contraception.  Contraception.”

You are right in that there are those who think that NFP has status equivalent to the ten commandments. The militant defenders of Humanae Vitae, nah, civilization as a whole.
I have little interest in that. Also, I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to tell Christians outside the Catholic church what they are supposed to do in their bedrooms. We ought to be frying bigger fish.

I’d happily join you in frying fish on any Friday of your choosing.
Why Friday (Fryday?). Come on, you can do better than that.

I figured it was a fasting day for both of us.
Fair enough, I was suspecting a pun.
Sanctus Deus, Sanctus fortis, Sanctus immortalis, miserere nobis.