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Author Topic: I gave up my faith.  (Read 862 times) Average Rating: 0
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Raylight
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« on: December 04, 2014, 09:55:16 PM »

Something very important happened to me the last few days. I wont mention what that is because it is a private matter. However, I just realized that I don't have faith anymore. I thought things got better, I thought I got over the crisis I had, but I think I didn't, and today I took a step forward and told myself that I don't have faith anymore. Not because of y argument or because I read a book or any of that, but because of my own experience, I decided to become an Atheist based on my own personal experience. I don't think religion is for me anymore.

But my question is, would I still be welcome here ?


« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:00:10 PM by Raylight » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 09:59:59 PM »

Praying your faith returns.
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 10:01:19 PM »

Of course you are welcome here.

But I would caution you: God doesn't give up on people.

I don't mean that in a condescending way. I was a very religious Jew, then became an atheist over night. I never thought I'd step foot into a house of worship again, let alone a church.

Understand that whatever has happened is a necessary step in your life, and be open to what may come next.

We will pray for you, Raylight.
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 10:02:29 PM »

Praying your faith returns.

Thank you Kelly. But I don't think it will. It is just gone. But, will I still be welcome here ? Because I love this forum and I loooove spending time here and I have so many members here who I like so much and respect.
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 10:05:28 PM »

Something very important happened to me the last few days. I wont mention what that is because it is a private matter. However, I just realized that I don't have faith anymore. I thought things got better, I thought I got over the crisis I had, but I think I didn't, and today I took a step forward and told myself that I don't have faith anymore. Not because of y argument or because I read a book or any of that, but because of my own experience, I decided to become an Atheist based on my own personal experience. I don't think religion is for me anymore.

But my question is, would I still be welcome here?

I'm certainly concerned for you. It's difficult for me to understand how you could come to offer this insult to God.
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 10:07:23 PM »

Something very important happened to me the last few days. I wont mention what that is because it is a private matter. However, I just realized that I don't have faith anymore. I thought things got better, I thought I got over the crisis I had, but I think I didn't, and today I took a step forward and told myself that I don't have faith anymore. Not because of y argument or because I read a book or any of that, but because of my own experience, I decided to become an Atheist based on my own personal experience. I don't think religion is for me anymore.

But my question is, would I still be welcome here?

I'm certainly concerned for you. It's difficult for me to understand how you could come to offer this insult to God.

LOL you really know how to attract doubters. Seriously, do your tactics ever actually work on people?
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 10:09:03 PM »

If my own past experience (as an atheist, agnostic, wanderer, undecider) is an indication, yes, you will still be welcome here. Just don't be combative or ridiculing, and follow the rules as best you can, and you should be fine.

I will add--and I don't expect a response on this, and you probably shouldn't give one in public anyway--that you are perhaps, maybe, possibly dealing with an issue that I have dealt with a long while (like 20 years), so let me just say something. If you find yourself constantly changing your mind, even if it seems perfectly rational and sensible and right each time, even if it seems like a normal and proper response, yet you keep changing your mind about significant decisions and important parts of your life, consider seeking any and all help that you can. Talking with someone/some people may be enough, or it may not. There are other options; it's good to know what those options are. I don't know the likelihood of cures, or learning to manage things, but if you struggle with anything at all like what I do, it's frustrating, and decades of going through the grind of it will most likely leave you about ready to check out. If there is indeed an issue, don't wait, and don't rely on the hope or expectation or thought that it will just automatically get better. It may, or it may not. My advice would be to not take the chance.

But again, don't feel run off or like you can't participate--I wish you the best, and I hope you find your way through to ... wherever/whatever.  Smiley
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:10:03 PM by Justin Kissel » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 10:14:33 PM »

I would echo Justin's advice. Talk to someone. A trusted friend. A family member. A therapist (recommended). Let them know. It's not good to hide things inside, especially when there's inner turmoil.

Through my therapy, I found God again. And my therapist was not even Christian. But she was supportive and she listened to every hem and haw I had about religion and faith.

Also, I must reprove you, Peter, for referring to what Raylight has done as an "insult to God." I sincerely hope you never lose your faith, but if you do, you would understand that the last thing on your mind is whether or not your are adequately insulting God. A loss of faith is not something one seeks; it's a precarious state one finds oneself in.
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 10:25:57 PM »

Something very important happened to me the last few days. I wont mention what that is because it is a private matter. However, I just realized that I don't have faith anymore. I thought things got better, I thought I got over the crisis I had, but I think I didn't, and today I took a step forward and told myself that I don't have faith anymore. Not because of y argument or because I read a book or any of that, but because of my own experience, I decided to become an Atheist based on my own personal experience. I don't think religion is for me anymore.

But my question is, would I still be welcome here ?




Just remember what you're giving up on Raylight, This is eternal life that is at stake. I know the feeling of coming to the point of just giving up, its more skepticism than anything though. More uncertainty than anything.

I hope scriptures come to mind and draw you back, i know scriptures have kept me in line even though i waver so greatly. Remember the prophecies, Jesus predicting the destruction of the temple, the miracles of the believers. These people really did believe Jesus rose from the dead. Peter, John and the other disciples really did believe he appeared to them all and i do too, Peter died for this, he was beheaded if i'm not wrong. I hope you overcome this period.

I can imagine the darkness that you feel.
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Raylight
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2014, 10:32:18 PM »

Something very important happened to me the last few days. I wont mention what that is because it is a private matter. However, I just realized that I don't have faith anymore. I thought things got better, I thought I got over the crisis I had, but I think I didn't, and today I took a step forward and told myself that I don't have faith anymore. Not because of y argument or because I read a book or any of that, but because of my own experience, I decided to become an Atheist based on my own personal experience. I don't think religion is for me anymore.

But my question is, would I still be welcome here?

I'm certainly concerned for you. It's difficult for me to understand how you could come to offer this insult to God.

I'm sorry but I never meant to offer any insult. I just had to say what I'm going through and ask if I will still be welcome here.
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 10:34:04 PM »

Its not my website but there are a few other people who consider themselves atheist.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:34:44 PM by WPM » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2014, 10:41:14 PM »

If my own past experience (as an atheist, agnostic, wanderer, undecider) is an indication, yes, you will still be welcome here. Just don't be combative or ridiculing, and follow the rules as best you can, and you should be fine.

I will add--and I don't expect a response on this, and you probably shouldn't give one in public anyway--that you are perhaps, maybe, possibly dealing with an issue that I have dealt with a long while (like 20 years), so let me just say something. If you find yourself constantly changing your mind, even if it seems perfectly rational and sensible and right each time, even if it seems like a normal and proper response, yet you keep changing your mind about significant decisions and important parts of your life, consider seeking any and all help that you can. Talking with someone/some people may be enough, or it may not. There are other options; it's good to know what those options are. I don't know the likelihood of cures, or learning to manage things, but if you struggle with anything at all like what I do, it's frustrating, and decades of going through the grind of it will most likely leave you about ready to check out. If there is indeed an issue, don't wait, and don't rely on the hope or expectation or thought that it will just automatically get better. It may, or it may not. My advice would be to not take the chance.

But again, don't feel run off or like you can't participate--I wish you the best, and I hope you find your way through to ... wherever/whatever.  Smiley

It is a fast and big change for me to just give up my faith like that. but I think it was all building up from the struggle I had when I was searching for The Church to the time when I had the crisis to now, all that build up and now this is the result, me giving up my faith in God completely.

Thank you Justin for your advice, I will think about it for sure Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 10:42:08 PM »

Yes, as long as there isn't any of the Militant Atheist sentiments I suppose.(My personal opinion, others may thing differently)

I had gone through phases of doubt and still do. My feelings towards God and Faith can change whenever doubt comes knocking upon the doors of my soul. Sometimes I thought that God Himself doesn't exist, at others I thought that He is evil as the Gnostics proclaim. However, having studied psychology and reading into Behavioral Economics just made me realize how we can be moved and deceived so easily through the manipulation of information and exploitation of our biological weaknesses. We even deceive ourselves and craft all sorts of excuses for our beliefs and actions if they are false and unethical. This led me to not take any steps towards Atheism or submitting to the Tyrannical God of Calvin, knowing that I could very well be deceiving myself.

My interest in philosophy led me to question and doubt the very beliefs I have and the arguments of others. It means that I cannot take anything at face value anymore, I have to sift through the arguments to get to the truth. Orthodoxy is rather ironically where I ended up. I had intended to stay Catholic and struggled to remain as one. Eventually, I just have to face the facts and willingly move towards the East. Regardless I brought my baggage of doubt and skepticism with me since there remains the possibility no matter how slim that I am wrong. Insofar, nothing had proven Orthodoxy to be false or illogical and hence, I remain as one for it withstood the doubt and skepticism I could throw towards it.

Having said that, just keep in mind that your feelings and mindset may change with circumstance and future experiences. Don't cease to doubt for we are weak and vulnerable to lies and deception and even to ourselves. I wish you the best in your quest for the Truth.
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 10:45:49 PM »

I would echo Justin's advice. Talk to someone. A trusted friend. A family member. A therapist (recommended). Let them know. It's not good to hide things inside, especially when there's inner turmoil.

Through my therapy, I found God again. And my therapist was not even Christian. But she was supportive and she listened to every hem and haw I had about religion and faith.

Also, I must reprove you, Peter, for referring to what Raylight has done as an "insult to God." I sincerely hope you never lose your faith, but if you do, you would understand that the last thing on your mind is whether or not your are adequately insulting God. A loss of faith is not something one seeks; it's a precarious state one finds oneself in.

Thank you for explaining to Peter what he unfortunately didn't see. I had no intention whatsoever to offer any insult, it is just me in this state where I have no faith in God anymore. I didn't even expect someone to think what I said is an insult.
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 10:49:37 PM »

Something very important happened to me the last few days. I wont mention what that is because it is a private matter. However, I just realized that I don't have faith anymore. I thought things got better, I thought I got over the crisis I had, but I think I didn't, and today I took a step forward and told myself that I don't have faith anymore. Not because of y argument or because I read a book or any of that, but because of my own experience, I decided to become an Atheist based on my own personal experience. I don't think religion is for me anymore.

But my question is, would I still be welcome here ?




Just remember what you're giving up on Raylight, This is eternal life that is at stake. I know the feeling of coming to the point of just giving up, its more skepticism than anything though. More uncertainty than anything.

I hope scriptures come to mind and draw you back, i know scriptures have kept me in line even though i waver so greatly. Remember the prophecies, Jesus predicting the destruction of the temple, the miracles of the believers. These people really did believe Jesus rose from the dead. Peter, John and the other disciples really did believe he appeared to them all and i do too, Peter died for this, he was beheaded if i'm not wrong. I hope you overcome this period.

I can imagine the darkness that you feel.

The strange thing is that I don't feel any darkness, I actually feel good. I did feel darkness in the past when I had the faith crisis, but surprisingly this time I just don't. That is why I took the step forward and admitted to myself that I don't believe anymore.
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 10:52:01 PM »

Yes, as long as there isn't any of the Militant Atheist sentiments I suppose.(My personal opinion, others may thing differently)

I had gone through phases of doubt and still do. My feelings towards God and Faith can change whenever doubt comes knocking upon the doors of my soul. Sometimes I thought that God Himself doesn't exist, at others I thought that He is evil as the Gnostics proclaim. However, having studied psychology and reading into Behavioral Economics just made me realize how we can be moved and deceived so easily through the manipulation of information and exploitation of our biological weaknesses. We even deceive ourselves and craft all sorts of excuses for our beliefs and actions if they are false and unethical. This led me to not take any steps towards Atheism or submitting to the Tyrannical God of Calvin, knowing that I could very well be deceiving myself.

My interest in philosophy led me to question and doubt the very beliefs I have and the arguments of others. It means that I cannot take anything at face value anymore, I have to sift through the arguments to get to the truth. Orthodoxy is rather ironically where I ended up. I had intended to stay Catholic and struggled to remain as one. Eventually, I just have to face the facts and willingly move towards the East. Regardless I brought my baggage of doubt and skepticism with me since there remains the possibility no matter how slim that I am wrong. Insofar, nothing had proven Orthodoxy to be false or illogical and hence, I remain as one for it withstood the doubt and skepticism I could throw towards it.

Having said that, just keep in mind that your feelings and mindset may change with circumstance and future experiences. Don't cease to doubt for we are weak and vulnerable to lies and deception and even to ourselves. I wish you the best in your quest for the Truth.



Thank you for your advice Sakura Smiley  I can see that you've gone through a lot when it comes to faith. I wish you best of luck in your journey.
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 10:53:19 PM »

Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Sad Please watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbSeIVxqZdM
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:53:51 PM by ElijahVI » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 10:54:45 PM »

Its not my website but there are a few other people who consider themselves atheist.



Yep, that is right. But I worried that it will be awkward since I was a believer before and now I'm not. But now I'm glad to know that it is fine. I will for sure respect the rules and will not cross the line, nor here nor in my daily life. I still love Jesus, I still respect him and will never change that.  
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2014, 11:01:17 PM »

Yes, as long as there isn't any of the Militant Atheist sentiments I suppose.(My personal opinion, others may thing differently)

I had gone through phases of doubt and still do. My feelings towards God and Faith can change whenever doubt comes knocking upon the doors of my soul. Sometimes I thought that God Himself doesn't exist, at others I thought that He is evil as the Gnostics proclaim. However, having studied psychology and reading into Behavioral Economics just made me realize how we can be moved and deceived so easily through the manipulation of information and exploitation of our biological weaknesses. We even deceive ourselves and craft all sorts of excuses for our beliefs and actions if they are false and unethical. This led me to not take any steps towards Atheism or submitting to the Tyrannical God of Calvin, knowing that I could very well be deceiving myself.

My interest in philosophy led me to question and doubt the very beliefs I have and the arguments of others. It means that I cannot take anything at face value anymore, I have to sift through the arguments to get to the truth. Orthodoxy is rather ironically where I ended up. I had intended to stay Catholic and struggled to remain as one. Eventually, I just have to face the facts and willingly move towards the East. Regardless I brought my baggage of doubt and skepticism with me since there remains the possibility no matter how slim that I am wrong. Insofar, nothing had proven Orthodoxy to be false or illogical and hence, I remain as one for it withstood the doubt and skepticism I could throw towards it.

Having said that, just keep in mind that your feelings and mindset may change with circumstance and future experiences. Don't cease to doubt for we are weak and vulnerable to lies and deception and even to ourselves. I wish you the best in your quest for the Truth.



Thank you for your advice Sakura Smiley  I can see that you've gone through a lot when it comes to faith. I wish you best of luck in your journey.

No prob and Thank You Smiley

It's not just me that went through a lot, I'm sure many others here do as well which we can all learn from be it religious or not.
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« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2014, 12:09:47 AM »

I'll keep you in my prayers. And I hope you do stick around. I have enjoyed your thoughtful questions and contributions to this forum.

It seems to me that you haven't completely given up all faith. I say that because you say that you still love Jesus, and you have a desire to continue to stay on this forum. So if all faith was completely eradicated from your heart, then I doubt if you'd have a desire to keep posting here. Just something to consider.

 
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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2014, 12:13:08 AM »

Something very important happened to me the last few days. I wont mention what that is because it is a private matter. However, I just realized that I don't have faith anymore. I thought things got better, I thought I got over the crisis I had, but I think I didn't, and today I took a step forward and told myself that I don't have faith anymore. Not because of y argument or because I read a book or any of that, but because of my own experience, I decided to become an Atheist based on my own personal experience. I don't think religion is for me anymore.

But my question is, would I still be welcome here?

I'm certainly concerned for you. It's difficult for me to understand how you could come to offer this insult to God.

I'm sorry but I never meant to offer any insult. I just had to say what I'm going through and ask if I will still be welcome here.

You seem like a likable fellow. You will be welcome here. Others not so much, no matter their commitment to their faith.

Hang out and stay honest, many here have been in a place of doubt or even certain of their loss of faith and made back into the fold, or if they haven't yet, remained helpful to many others.

Don't take porter too seriously. He has a lot of personal windmills to grind.
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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2014, 12:20:43 AM »

Let's return our attention to Raylight and his Father, fellows (not that I'm not flattered).
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2014, 07:59:29 AM »

You'd still be welcomed, Raylight.
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2014, 09:16:36 AM »

Frankly, this thread is stupid.  We've had and still have Atheists on this board and they're treated with the same respect they give everyone else.  Orthodox or not, if you come here and post inflammatory or overly critical posts about the Faith then no, you or anyone else won't be accepted.  It's a matter of respecting where you are and who you are talking to. 

Raylight, your business is your business but I have to say, I think you need to speak with someone.  It's not normal to jump from so many belief systems to no belief system in a couple of months.  When I say jump from, I mean going all out for a few weeks then telling everybody you're no longer Catholic, Anglican, or whatever.  I'm not trying to be cruel, but you're never going to be happy until you figure out what you need to do to fill your void.  It seems like something else is missing from you life that you won't find here.
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« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2014, 09:49:01 AM »

Praying for you Raylight, and I hope you stay here.
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« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2014, 11:24:31 AM »

You can't give up faith now!! Only couple days till Christmas. Santa won't bring you gifts Tongue
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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2014, 11:37:14 AM »

Lord, have mercy on Raylight.
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2014, 01:09:39 PM »

As others have pointed out, you aren't going to be banned for being an atheist.  There are rules against proselytism, though, so you would likely not be welcome here if you are actively trying to recruit others to atheism.

That said, if you have just given up your faith and no longer believe in God, Christ, the Church, etc., then why do you want to continue participating in a forum that is entirely dedicated to the things that you have rejected?
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« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2014, 01:22:20 PM »

Something very important happened to me the last few days. I wont mention what that is because it is a private matter. However, I just realized that I don't have faith anymore. I thought things got better, I thought I got over the crisis I had, but I think I didn't, and today I took a step forward and told myself that I don't have faith anymore. Not because of y argument or because I read a book or any of that, but because of my own experience, I decided to become an Atheist based on my own personal experience. I don't think religion is for me anymore.

But my question is, would I still be welcome here ?




Sorry to hear about this change, though it sounds like the change took place some time ago and you are only now realizing it.

A question; why do you go from Christianity to Atheism? I don't see how the latter is the next step from the former, yet it is a move so common to people who lose their faith in Christ.

Another question; what do you mean by "faith"?

Personally, I would love for you to stay on as a poster here.
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Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

—G.K. Chesterton
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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2014, 02:38:48 PM »

Thread locked pending moderator review.
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2014, 02:01:22 AM »

Knock it off with the personal attacks and insults. This thread is now unlocked.
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2014, 02:02:13 AM »

Praying for you Raylight, and I hope you stay here.

Myself too.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2014, 04:59:20 AM »

a lot of personal windmills to grind.

I do like this phrase, and would apply it first of all to myself.

Another one, said by a woman in my therapy group years ago:

"I tend to wear my heart on my shoulder"

(in case it isn't clear, that's "heart on my sleeve" + "chip on my shoulder").

Raylight, for me and others loss of faith appears from time to time unasked-for, and like any temptation the question is whether or not you let it dwell in you and grow on you, or  reject it. And for techniques to reject temptation, Orthodoxy is where it's at.

You say you have decided on atheism. That being your decision, you can change it again, but I think believers and non-believers will agree that a time will come when it is too late to change our minds.
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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2014, 06:51:17 AM »

Lord have mercy. I have known others who came to this conclusion, but later found it was just a rabbit trail in their path to a deeper and more authentic faith. Jesus is the Good Shepherd, He comes after the lost sheep and brings them home on his shoulders.  You love him, he loves you, that's not an end, it's a beginning.
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« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2014, 11:14:31 AM »

Raylight--In case you got discouraged for not making progress in your spiritual life, it might help to consider the following viewpoint.

The essays titled: "You Are Not Doing Better" and "Why Sin Is Not A Moral Problem".
http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/
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« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2014, 01:35:40 PM »

If my own past experience (as an atheist, agnostic, wanderer, undecider) is an indication, yes, you will still be welcome here. Just don't be combative or ridiculing, and follow the rules as best you can, and you should be fine.

I will add--and I don't expect a response on this, and you probably shouldn't give one in public anyway--that you are perhaps, maybe, possibly dealing with an issue that I have dealt with a long while (like 20 years), so let me just say something. If you find yourself constantly changing your mind, even if it seems perfectly rational and sensible and right each time, even if it seems like a normal and proper response, yet you keep changing your mind about significant decisions and important parts of your life, consider seeking any and all help that you can. Talking with someone/some people may be enough, or it may not. There are other options; it's good to know what those options are. I don't know the likelihood of cures, or learning to manage things, but if you struggle with anything at all like what I do, it's frustrating, and decades of going through the grind of it will most likely leave you about ready to check out. If there is indeed an issue, don't wait, and don't rely on the hope or expectation or thought that it will just automatically get better. It may, or it may not. My advice would be to not take the chance.

But again, don't feel run off or like you can't participate--I wish you the best, and I hope you find your way through to ... wherever/whatever.  Smiley

Justin brings to light what many Christians do struggle with.  Many of us here would be lying if we didn't have "waves" of at least quasi atheism (agnostic stuff) go through us at times.  Some stronger than others, some not as much.  Then there are those who are strongholds who never doubt no matter what.

In my personal walk, I've never been an atheist.  I will say there have been bouts at times where I would have called myself a "mostly Christian with streaks of agnostic" where I would say that my belief in Christianity would have been there, but relaxed and open ended (sort of like a parable).   For instance, thinking of Adam and Eve as a parable of sorts, rather than specific people of Adam and Eve.  Comparing the serpent as temptation that slithers into your life. etc.  Leaving creation undefined.  Things like that.  

I would only suggest and advise anybody who struggles with full atheism (or bouts) to hang on and never give up trying to seek answers.

Sometimes God will speak to you in ways you never imagined.

Example, on my farm we raise heritage bourbon red turkeys.  (you should google a photo of them, they are really neat).  These would be the types of turkeys that the Native Americans ate and not our gross corporate raised turkeys today.   Anyway, we incubate the eggs artificially in an incubator.  I'm going to tell you something - you would NOT BELIEVE how difficult this is compared to chickens.  

In order to hatch these things, you need fresh air, 90% (yes 90% HUMIDITY with fresh air!!!!!!) at a constant perfect temperature.   I had to build an incubator that was completely insulated to preserve heat, yet build a fresh air heater and air expeller (for the incubator part).  This way it will dump out old air but bring in fresh humid air at time intervals.  Otherwise they do not hatch!!!

God created Bourbon Red Turkeys to be able to somehow incubate the eggs, provide just the right humidity, and air circulation.  The turkeys perfectly will incubate the eggs themselves.  

(just fyi, broody turkeys do not always keep laying (as they don't eat as much because they sit on the eggs), so in order to maximize laying potential, you have to take the eggs.)

Anyhow my point is, as a man I had an incredibly difficult time understanding that in this natural world exists things that are incredibly hard (yet simple enough concept) for man to re-create.  How did these survive in the wild is beyond me.  

Now chickens, that's child's play.  Smiley  They are easy to incubate/hatch.

While I am not saying that stuff to try to convince you from my experience, I'm just suggesting to allow yourself the opportunity to still try to recognize God in stuff.  He may "speak" to you through certain experiences.  The turkey hatching was mine as I scratched my head for years just getting the incubator right. (it was CRAZY!)

Things happen in life where you may give faith another try.  By you saying you wanted to stay on the forum, that is a good sign that you are allowing your own intellect the opportunity to listen to the other side of the story and prove itself wrong.

I'm on the EO forum to do that as well.  I've always said I could be wrong and may one day rejoin the church.  I recognize my own fallible mind in this manner.  I could be wrong about anything I fight so much about (yes, icons, father/master, Constantine etc., and a few other church practices).   If I don't recognize my fallibility and that "I" can be wrong, I would believe that I am only being ridiculous and stubborn.

Faith for me can't be blind.  It can be mysterious at times and there are a lot of things I can't understand, but over all for me faith has to be backed up strongly.   There are many other things that speak faith to me than Turkeys btw.  Farming in general has brought me closer to God, awkwardly as much as prayer.  Watching things like grass grow from no where, rain watering the grass, goats eating the grass, goats kidding, 1 goat nurses the babies of 2 goats - while I can take the milk from the other giving my family milk, butter, cheese, cream, etc.  Just amazing.  Perfect order of things.  Goats not only provide for their own, but enough to provide for my family while the grass provides for it all, and the rain/sun provides for the grass (as well as decomposing nutrient including goat droppings).  It's just this perfect and beautiful balance.   A harmony - not just random notes...

It is also incredibly peaceful to watch the herd work in this manner.... those quiet times... I can't describe the overwhelming faith I feel in those moments.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 01:46:52 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2014, 01:54:26 PM »

Why don't you just let the turkeys sit on their eggs?
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« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2014, 02:15:58 PM »

Justin brings to light what many Christians do struggle with.  Many of us here would be lying if we didn't have "waves" of at least quasi atheism (agnostic stuff) go through us at times.  Some stronger than others, some not as much.  Then there are those who are strongholds who never doubt no matter what.

In my personal walk, I've never been an atheist.  I will say there have been bouts at times where I would have called myself a "mostly Christian with streaks of agnostic" where I would say that my belief in Christianity would have been there, but relaxed and open ended (sort of like a parable).   For instance, thinking of Adam and Eve as a parable of sorts, rather than specific people of Adam and Eve.  Comparing the serpent as temptation that slithers into your life. etc.  Leaving creation undefined.  Things like that.  

I have to dispute the idea that believing in a literal Adam and Eve means one cannot believe in Christ, maybe in Orthodoxy.

Lord have mercy. I have known others who came to this conclusion, but later found it was just a rabbit trail in their path to a deeper and more authentic faith. Jesus is the Good Shepherd, He comes after the lost sheep and brings them home on his shoulders.  You love him, he loves you, that's not an end, it's a beginning.
That's been my own experience.
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« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2014, 02:16:33 PM »

Why don't you just let the turkeys sit on their eggs?
If you allow them to do this, they go "broody" which means they tend to sit on the egg and not eat a whole lot, forage for bugs/plants, etc.  They'll stop laying as many eggs or stop laying completely and just sit.   If you gather the eggs, they won't sit and will continue foraging and eating and lay more eggs.

They are also seasonal layers, so we really try to take advantage of their laying season (unlike chickens who will lay generally all year except for moult times).


***Edit to expand

I don't know if it means things to others, but God at the time of Genesis at the all - said that "man will have to plow now".   What is interesting with all of this - is that unlike many other forms of creation (not exactly all), they don't do anything at all for their food.   Goats as in my example, their food is just there growing all over (the whole world is a salad!!!!!)  Chickens are the same thing, they can just free range.  Same for the turkeys.  Same for deer.  Lions simply run and jump on their food.

Man seems to have to work hard for his food - especially with such a broad palette of tastes and cares.

When food goes scarce for Goats in the winter and grasses are dormant, shrubs "shrink back", etc - God has an interesting plan before hand.   The trees shed their leaves in the fall.   Huge piles of hackberry leaves for example.  The goats LOVE those leaves - JUST as they are growing in their winter coat of fur - they have piles and piles of them.  They get FAT!  Some of mine are really pudgy right now. Smiley  It helps to get them through the winter when other food is scarce and they lose some weight.

Here's the thing it's just so wondrous.... The leaves come down the instant ruminant/forage (goats, deer, antelope, etc.) animals need to gain weight as other foliage is growing more scarce and fat is needed.   The timing is impeccable.  I watch the goats go under a tree and they LOVE the fallen leaves.  It sounds like they are eating potato chips AND they get fat from them too.   Some of the leaves are crushed under their hoofs, and become a mulch (instead of leaves that blow away).  They also leave "goat fertilizer" right around the tree while getting fat.  The fat helps get them through a leaner winter.

It's just a perfect design.  How a tree and a goat/deer work in harmony is amazing - especially considering the timing of winter and the shedding of leaves just when fat is needed.    God is awesome.


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