Author Topic: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)  (Read 2974 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2016, 06:20:43 PM »
Quote
Perhaps I've been misreading your posts, but my impression is that you reject entirely any mythological interpretation of the resurrection (virgin birth in previous posts) as at all valid for Christians to hold
Its not. It either literally happened, or Christianity is a lie and should be discarded (ergo, all the Apostles are liars as well).

PP
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2016, 06:27:07 PM »
Charles, disagree on educated folk having God-smacked outta them. While it is true in this day and age, one can simply note it is the zeitgeist of late. And the politics of the education industry has mandated that what is Beauty, Truth & Goodness be marginalized, ridiculed and diminished at every turn when it appears.  I do have hope that it is turning around and the young folks are seeking what is real since they are aware of the hollowness of what is offered "out here". The OP simply is not up to the struggle in seeking, as it seems he will settle on what is "on the outside" things of life.
Just my 2¢
Only he can answer that.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2016, 06:27:13 PM »
Quote
Perhaps I've been misreading your posts, but my impression is that you reject entirely any mythological interpretation of the resurrection (virgin birth in previous posts) as at all valid for Christians to hold
Its not. It either literally happened, or Christianity is a lie and should be discarded (ergo, all the Apostles are liars as well).

PP
It's not how religion works.
That might not be how your religion works, but history is clear. The Scriptures and the Apostles preached Christ's literal, physical resurrection. If you don't think He did, sorry. You're not a Christian. Its as simple as that. History and Scripture dont care about your opinions.

PP
Just the opposite, history still remains the furthest thing away from clarity and your naked assertion of it as if grounded in something so self-evident is know-nothingism at its finest. So what do you mean by "literally happened"?

There is nothing in history that is literal, and all that you know about the resurrection (and all one could ever know about it) is in a text.
That may be how revelation works for Protestants, but that's not how it works for Orthodox (or Catholics, AFAIK). Everything we need to know about the Resurrection is held in the Tradition of the Church: its public teachings, its hymns, its icons, its faith. The text of the Gospel is merely the textual form of our Tradition.

You just don't think the resurrection in the gospel is enough, you desire for more which goes back to being ashamed of the gospel.
Not if the Gospel is more than a written text.

And BTW no Christian ever witnessed the resurrection, not even the Apostles, who supposedly only witnessed the resurrected Christ. You keep insisting on a "literal" resurrection, meaning what? A supernatural event or an historical event that can be subjected to a natural explanation?
Why must a historical event be subjected to a natural explanation? Why must a supernatural event NOT be historical?

And of course agustin's reply went right over your head, your know-nothingism blunts any serious inquiry into what religion is (in the way agustin means it).
You don't know the truth of the Resurrection, therefore you know nothing, nothing.
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Offline nothing

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2016, 06:37:14 PM »
What good is the Resurrection if it's nothing more than an existential truth? If the Resurrection is not a historical fact, then there is no salvation.
If you are to prove the resurrection empirically it would be the end of Christianity. But the resurrected Christ isn't about a body coming back to life, like Lazarus, is it? Isn't the claim that Jesus resurrected body isn't mortal but rather divine? So isn't the transformation supernatural?

So what empirical evidence could you even present to me of this claim?

We don't undertake history by trying to prove/disprove a supernatural event, it is exactly outside the scope of historiography, there is no need to even consider empirical evidence.

Now if you are going to purport that we have decent textual evidence by treating the gospels as somehow "evidence" to those that "witnessed" the event, I would take you to task that its a mistake from the beginning.
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FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MEN!

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2016, 06:43:36 PM »
What good is the Resurrection if it's nothing more than an existential truth? If the Resurrection is not a historical fact, then there is no salvation.
If you are to prove the resurrection empirically it would be the end of Christianity.
Did I ever say anything about proving the Resurrection empirically?

But the resurrected Christ isn't about a body coming back to life, like Lazarus, is it? Isn't the claim that Jesus resurrected body isn't mortal but rather divine? So isn't the transformation supernatural?

So what empirical evidence could you even present to me of this claim?
Why do you ask for empirical evidence? Are you looking to destroy Christianity? ;)

We don't undertake history by trying to prove/disprove a supernatural event, it is exactly outside the scope of historiography, there is no need to even consider empirical evidence.
Again, who's talking about a need for empirical evidence of the Resurrection? ??? It looks as if you are.

Now if you are going to purport that we have decent textual evidence by treating the gospels as somehow "evidence" to those that "witnessed" the event, I would take you to task that its a mistake from the beginning.
Once again, I'm not arguing solely from textual evidence. It looks to me as if you're trying to rule out any evidence other than the textual.
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Offline nothing

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2016, 06:44:05 PM »
Quote
Perhaps I've been misreading your posts, but my impression is that you reject entirely any mythological interpretation of the resurrection (virgin birth in previous posts) as at all valid for Christians to hold
Its not. It either literally happened, or Christianity is a lie and should be discarded (ergo, all the Apostles are liars as well).

PP
It's not how religion works.
It's how Christianity works.
You should probably read Barthes. As he argues we are never without a mythology, its essential to who we are.
“Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

Romans 3:13



"I'm very highly educated. I know words, I have the best words...but there's no better word than stupid. Right?" - Donald Trump

FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MEN!

He catches the wise in their craftiness!

Offline nothing

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2016, 06:45:20 PM »
What good is the Resurrection if it's nothing more than an existential truth? If the Resurrection is not a historical fact, then there is no salvation.
If you are to prove the resurrection empirically it would be the end of Christianity.
Did I ever say anything about proving the Resurrection empirically?

But the resurrected Christ isn't about a body coming back to life, like Lazarus, is it? Isn't the claim that Jesus resurrected body isn't mortal but rather divine? So isn't the transformation supernatural?

So what empirical evidence could you even present to me of this claim?
Why do you ask for empirical evidence? Are you looking to destroy Christianity? ;)

We don't undertake history by trying to prove/disprove a supernatural event, it is exactly outside the scope of historiography, there is no need to even consider empirical evidence.
Again, who's talking about a need for empirical evidence of the Resurrection? ??? It looks as if you are.

Now if you are going to purport that we have decent textual evidence by treating the gospels as somehow "evidence" to those that "witnessed" the event, I would take you to task that its a mistake from the beginning.
Once again, I'm not arguing solely from textual evidence. It looks to me as if you're trying to rule out any evidence other than the textual.
So what is a historical fact then if it isn't empirical?
“Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

Romans 3:13



"I'm very highly educated. I know words, I have the best words...but there's no better word than stupid. Right?" - Donald Trump

FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MEN!

He catches the wise in their craftiness!

Offline augustin717

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2016, 06:45:39 PM »
Quote
That may be how revelation works for Protestants, but that's not how it works for Orthodox (or Catholics, AFAIK). Everything we need to know about the Resurrection is held in the Tradition of the Church: its public teachings, its hymns, its icons, its faith. The text of the Gospel is merely the textual form of our Tradition.
Well of course if you limit yourself to the dogmatic aspect of the resurrection; once you're trying to name a historical case for it things get trickier as you'd have to use the methods used by historiography and text criticism and when those methods are used the gospel narratives become semi-legendary.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2016, 06:46:04 PM »
Quote
Perhaps I've been misreading your posts, but my impression is that you reject entirely any mythological interpretation of the resurrection (virgin birth in previous posts) as at all valid for Christians to hold
Its not. It either literally happened, or Christianity is a lie and should be discarded (ergo, all the Apostles are liars as well).

PP
It's not how religion works.
It's how Christianity works.
You should probably read Barthes. As he argues we are never without a mythology, its essential to who we are.
And what do you think I've been arguing with my allegations that FinnJames is creating a false dichotomy between history and mythology?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2016, 06:46:52 PM »
What good is the Resurrection if it's nothing more than an existential truth? If the Resurrection is not a historical fact, then there is no salvation.
If you are to prove the resurrection empirically it would be the end of Christianity.
Did I ever say anything about proving the Resurrection empirically?

But the resurrected Christ isn't about a body coming back to life, like Lazarus, is it? Isn't the claim that Jesus resurrected body isn't mortal but rather divine? So isn't the transformation supernatural?

So what empirical evidence could you even present to me of this claim?
Why do you ask for empirical evidence? Are you looking to destroy Christianity? ;)

We don't undertake history by trying to prove/disprove a supernatural event, it is exactly outside the scope of historiography, there is no need to even consider empirical evidence.
Again, who's talking about a need for empirical evidence of the Resurrection? ??? It looks as if you are.

Now if you are going to purport that we have decent textual evidence by treating the gospels as somehow "evidence" to those that "witnessed" the event, I would take you to task that its a mistake from the beginning.
Once again, I'm not arguing solely from textual evidence. It looks to me as if you're trying to rule out any evidence other than the textual.
So what is a historical fact then if it isn't empirical?
What does empirical mean to you?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline nothing

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2016, 06:53:45 PM »
What good is the Resurrection if it's nothing more than an existential truth? If the Resurrection is not a historical fact, then there is no salvation.
If you are to prove the resurrection empirically it would be the end of Christianity.
Did I ever say anything about proving the Resurrection empirically?

But the resurrected Christ isn't about a body coming back to life, like Lazarus, is it? Isn't the claim that Jesus resurrected body isn't mortal but rather divine? So isn't the transformation supernatural?

So what empirical evidence could you even present to me of this claim?
Why do you ask for empirical evidence? Are you looking to destroy Christianity? ;)

We don't undertake history by trying to prove/disprove a supernatural event, it is exactly outside the scope of historiography, there is no need to even consider empirical evidence.
Again, who's talking about a need for empirical evidence of the Resurrection? ??? It looks as if you are.

Now if you are going to purport that we have decent textual evidence by treating the gospels as somehow "evidence" to those that "witnessed" the event, I would take you to task that its a mistake from the beginning.
Once again, I'm not arguing solely from textual evidence. It looks to me as if you're trying to rule out any evidence other than the textual.
So what is a historical fact then if it isn't empirical?
What does empirical mean to you?
Empirical in the sense it is subject to a natural explanation, but don't you consider the Resurrection as a supernatural event?
“Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

Romans 3:13



"I'm very highly educated. I know words, I have the best words...but there's no better word than stupid. Right?" - Donald Trump

FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MEN!

He catches the wise in their craftiness!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2016, 07:04:33 PM »
What good is the Resurrection if it's nothing more than an existential truth? If the Resurrection is not a historical fact, then there is no salvation.
If you are to prove the resurrection empirically it would be the end of Christianity.
Did I ever say anything about proving the Resurrection empirically?

But the resurrected Christ isn't about a body coming back to life, like Lazarus, is it? Isn't the claim that Jesus resurrected body isn't mortal but rather divine? So isn't the transformation supernatural?

So what empirical evidence could you even present to me of this claim?
Why do you ask for empirical evidence? Are you looking to destroy Christianity? ;)

We don't undertake history by trying to prove/disprove a supernatural event, it is exactly outside the scope of historiography, there is no need to even consider empirical evidence.
Again, who's talking about a need for empirical evidence of the Resurrection? ??? It looks as if you are.

Now if you are going to purport that we have decent textual evidence by treating the gospels as somehow "evidence" to those that "witnessed" the event, I would take you to task that its a mistake from the beginning.
Once again, I'm not arguing solely from textual evidence. It looks to me as if you're trying to rule out any evidence other than the textual.
So what is a historical fact then if it isn't empirical?
What does empirical mean to you?
Empirical in the sense it is subject to a natural explanation, but don't you consider the Resurrection as a supernatural event?
Don't you see a dichotomy between the supernatural and the historical? Why the divide?
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Offline nothing

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2016, 07:16:33 PM »
What good is the Resurrection if it's nothing more than an existential truth? If the Resurrection is not a historical fact, then there is no salvation.
If you are to prove the resurrection empirically it would be the end of Christianity.
Did I ever say anything about proving the Resurrection empirically?

But the resurrected Christ isn't about a body coming back to life, like Lazarus, is it? Isn't the claim that Jesus resurrected body isn't mortal but rather divine? So isn't the transformation supernatural?

So what empirical evidence could you even present to me of this claim?
Why do you ask for empirical evidence? Are you looking to destroy Christianity? ;)

We don't undertake history by trying to prove/disprove a supernatural event, it is exactly outside the scope of historiography, there is no need to even consider empirical evidence.
Again, who's talking about a need for empirical evidence of the Resurrection? ??? It looks as if you are.

Now if you are going to purport that we have decent textual evidence by treating the gospels as somehow "evidence" to those that "witnessed" the event, I would take you to task that its a mistake from the beginning.
Once again, I'm not arguing solely from textual evidence. It looks to me as if you're trying to rule out any evidence other than the textual.
So what is a historical fact then if it isn't empirical?
What does empirical mean to you?
Empirical in the sense it is subject to a natural explanation, but don't you consider the Resurrection as a supernatural event?
Don't you see a dichotomy between the supernatural and the historical? Why the divide?
Focus Peter, you said "if the Resurrection is not historical fact..." And I'm asking you what do you mean by historical fact?
“Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

Romans 3:13



"I'm very highly educated. I know words, I have the best words...but there's no better word than stupid. Right?" - Donald Trump

FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MEN!

He catches the wise in their craftiness!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2016, 07:22:48 PM »
If Christ is where the "supernatural" and the "natural" unite, even the mundane human things Christ did are "supernatural" and the miracles Christ performed are "natural".  Theologically speaking it's both in one.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2016, 08:10:29 PM »
What good is the Resurrection if it's nothing more than an existential truth? If the Resurrection is not a historical fact, then there is no salvation.
If you are to prove the resurrection empirically it would be the end of Christianity.
Did I ever say anything about proving the Resurrection empirically?

But the resurrected Christ isn't about a body coming back to life, like Lazarus, is it? Isn't the claim that Jesus resurrected body isn't mortal but rather divine? So isn't the transformation supernatural?

So what empirical evidence could you even present to me of this claim?
Why do you ask for empirical evidence? Are you looking to destroy Christianity? ;)

We don't undertake history by trying to prove/disprove a supernatural event, it is exactly outside the scope of historiography, there is no need to even consider empirical evidence.
Again, who's talking about a need for empirical evidence of the Resurrection? ??? It looks as if you are.

Now if you are going to purport that we have decent textual evidence by treating the gospels as somehow "evidence" to those that "witnessed" the event, I would take you to task that its a mistake from the beginning.
Once again, I'm not arguing solely from textual evidence. It looks to me as if you're trying to rule out any evidence other than the textual.
So what is a historical fact then if it isn't empirical?
What does empirical mean to you?
Empirical in the sense it is subject to a natural explanation, but don't you consider the Resurrection as a supernatural event?
Don't you see a dichotomy between the supernatural and the historical? Why the divide?
Focus Peter, you said "if the Resurrection is not historical fact..." And I'm asking you what do you mean by historical fact?
Only now are you asking this question?
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2016, 09:25:56 PM »
Question to Michael SN, and other atheists or agnostics: Do you think that you have such things as a soul and free will?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 09:26:08 PM by rakovsky »

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #106 on: April 19, 2016, 10:29:13 PM »
This thread sucks now.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #107 on: April 19, 2016, 11:23:03 PM »
This thread sucks now.
And what do you mean by saying "now" here?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2016, 12:26:30 AM »
This thread sucks now.
And what do you mean by saying "now" here?
Because you derailed it.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2016, 01:04:50 AM »
This thread sucks now.
And what do you mean by saying "now" here?

I don't mean it to be directed at you. I just mean that this thread has long been derailed and is concerned primarily with minor quibbles, most of which don't seem directly related at all to the OP.
"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion." - Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII

“Fools have a habit of believing that everything written by a famous author is admirable. For my part I read only to please myself and like only what suits my taste.” - Lord Pococurante in Candide by Voltaire

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2016, 01:29:40 AM »
This thread sucks now.
And what do you mean by saying "now" here?

I don't mean it to be directed at you. I just mean that this thread has long been derailed and is concerned primarily with minor quibbles, most of which don't seem directly related at all to the OP.
Then you came along and made the thread suck even more. ;)
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Offline Valekhai

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2016, 03:32:13 AM »
Question to Michael SN, and other atheists or agnostics: Do you think that you have such things as a soul and free will?

Left to my own devices, I'd say 'no' for soul and 'yes' for free will, but I can't be sure we're talking about the same things when we use those terms. It seems to me that a lot of what people claim the soul is or does are things that I attribute to the mind, but almost always the soul is supposed to be non-physical and eternal, and I don't think the mind is either of those. As far as free will goes, I don’t believe in libertarian free will but I am a compatibilist.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #112 on: April 20, 2016, 07:29:13 AM »
Quote
Just the opposite, history still remains the furthest thing away from clarity and your naked assertion of it as if grounded in something so self-evident is know-nothingism at its finest. So what do you mean by "literally happened"?

There is nothing in history that is literal, and all that you know about the resurrection (and all one could ever know about it) is in a text. You just don't think the resurrection in the gospel is enough, you desire for more which goes back to being ashamed of the gospel.

And BTW no Christian ever witnessed the resurrection, not even the Apostles, who supposedly only witnessed the resurrected Christ. You keep insisting on a "literal" resurrection, meaning what? A supernatural event or an historical event that can be subjected to a natural explanation?

And of course agustin's reply went right over your head, your know-nothingism blunts any serious inquiry into what religion is (in the way agustin means it).
Save your pseudo-philosophy for someone impressed by nonsense.

History IS clear. Just read the writings of the Saints. Every one, without exception recognizes a literal resurrection. The specific definitions of "religion" is not what is being addressed. Just because it doesn't fint into your nonsensical version of events, or how you wish things were is immaterial.

If you don't believe in the resurrection, that is fine. Its your right, and you're free to your opinion. But please, dont try to change historical fact. Christianity is centered on the Resurrection actually happening. If you dont like it, too bad for you. You don't get to redefine Christianity just because you divorced yourself from reality long ago.

PP
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #113 on: April 20, 2016, 09:21:29 AM »
Question to Michael SN, and other atheists or agnostics: Do you think that you have such things as a soul and free will?

Would those two words be meaningless if one were an atheist?
Especially the word "free". One would simply have will.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 09:23:01 AM by LenInSebastopol »
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Offline nothing

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #114 on: April 20, 2016, 09:57:44 AM »
Only now are you asking this question?
I had attempted to draw out what you mean by "historical fact" but your questions suggest I was wrong to consider it as empirical. You have yet to demonstrate what you mean by it and still leave the following obscure: "If the Resurrection is not a historical fact"

So if historical fact here does not mean empirical, then what do you mean by it?

EDIT: As I had told you earlier, any supernatural events can never be an object for historiography. It is entirely unconcerned with them. What I think this will lead to is recanting that the Resurrection can be considered historical fact. What needs to be brought into view are the assumptions inherent to your statement.

I don't have an issue with Christianity being completely made up because to me the story is what is powerful and meaningful, it's what transforms us into a new creation: a loving person.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 10:17:21 AM by nothing »
“Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

Romans 3:13



"I'm very highly educated. I know words, I have the best words...but there's no better word than stupid. Right?" - Donald Trump

FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MEN!

He catches the wise in their craftiness!

Offline nothing

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2016, 10:05:43 AM »
This thread sucks now.
It sucked from the very beginning with the OP. It begged to be derailed into something more interesting.
“Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

Romans 3:13



"I'm very highly educated. I know words, I have the best words...but there's no better word than stupid. Right?" - Donald Trump

FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MEN!

He catches the wise in their craftiness!

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2016, 10:28:27 AM »
I don't have an issue with Christianity being completely made up because to me the story is what is powerful and meaningful, it's what transforms us into a new creation: a loving person.

Except, the 'story' is about what force causes us to change.  Or, The Cause.

The Scriptures make it pretty clear that being truly loving requires Divine Intervention rather than just more human effort.  Once Jesus loses His 'historical reality,' then the narrative falls apart.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2016, 11:18:57 AM »
Quote
I don't have an issue with Christianity being completely made up because to me the story is what is powerful and meaningful, it's what transforms us into a new creation: a loving person
I get what you're saying, but if the Resurrection never physically took place, then the whole religion is a lie, and any good that came out of it is really irrelevant.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #118 on: April 20, 2016, 11:47:43 AM »
Only now are you asking this question?
I had attempted to draw out what you mean by "historical fact" but your questions suggest I was wrong to consider it as empirical. You have yet to demonstrate what you mean by it and still leave the following obscure: "If the Resurrection is not a historical fact"

So if historical fact here does not mean empirical, then what do you mean by it?

EDIT: As I had told you earlier, any supernatural events can never be an object for historiography. It is entirely unconcerned with them. What I think this will lead to is recanting that the Resurrection can be considered historical fact. What needs to be brought into view are the assumptions inherent to your statement.

I don't have an issue with Christianity being completely made up because to me the story is what is powerful and meaningful, it's what transforms us into a new creation: a loving person.
Then any philosophy is good, and there's no reason to be a Christian. One could just as well be B'ahai. ::)

It's not the story that saves. It's the Resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves, and no amount of narcissistic sophistry on your part is going to change that.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 11:54:54 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline nothing

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #119 on: April 20, 2016, 12:01:54 PM »
Only now are you asking this question?
I had attempted to draw out what you mean by "historical fact" but your questions suggest I was wrong to consider it as empirical. You have yet to demonstrate what you mean by it and still leave the following obscure: "If the Resurrection is not a historical fact"

So if historical fact here does not mean empirical, then what do you mean by it?

EDIT: As I had told you earlier, any supernatural events can never be an object for historiography. It is entirely unconcerned with them. What I think this will lead to is recanting that the Resurrection can be considered historical fact. What needs to be brought into view are the assumptions inherent to your statement.

I don't have an issue with Christianity being completely made up because to me the story is what is powerful and meaningful, it's what transforms us into a new creation: a loving person.
Then any philosophy is good, and there's no reason to be a Christian. One could just as well be B'ahai. ::)
So you are unable to discern the difference between philosophies and religions? You are unable to see, for example, Buddhism deals with a different existential issue (suffering) than Christianity?

I'm confused that your facile objection suggests I'm something of a nihilist.

Quote
It's not the story that saves. It's the Resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves, and no amount of narcissistic sophistry on your part is going to change that.
You mean the Ressurection that is found in the narrative, that is only meaningful in that context and nowhere else? The Resurrection you only read about in the text?
“Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

Romans 3:13



"I'm very highly educated. I know words, I have the best words...but there's no better word than stupid. Right?" - Donald Trump

FOR THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN, AND THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER THAN MEN!

He catches the wise in their craftiness!

Offline William T

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #120 on: April 20, 2016, 12:38:32 PM »
Some extreme Sola Scriptura made sophisticated by modern German and French philosophers?  It's clear no Orthodox or Catholic believe that, I don't think interpreting anything real works that way anyway, not that you could ever convince a philosopher of that fact.  I think this way of thinking is for very few, and isn't that compelling a method or belief structure for non theologians, monastics, or philosophers.  I think very few would be able to find much sympathy for all those lofty narratives, mystical meditations,allegories, and morals that such noble and lofty men meditate on.  I'd certainly have no problem dropping such a belief system about as quickly as I'd drop reading any text by Hegel, which is pretty quick.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 12:39:41 PM by William T »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #121 on: April 20, 2016, 12:55:48 PM »
Only now are you asking this question?
I had attempted to draw out what you mean by "historical fact" but your questions suggest I was wrong to consider it as empirical. You have yet to demonstrate what you mean by it and still leave the following obscure: "If the Resurrection is not a historical fact"

So if historical fact here does not mean empirical, then what do you mean by it?

EDIT: As I had told you earlier, any supernatural events can never be an object for historiography. It is entirely unconcerned with them. What I think this will lead to is recanting that the Resurrection can be considered historical fact. What needs to be brought into view are the assumptions inherent to your statement.

I don't have an issue with Christianity being completely made up because to me the story is what is powerful and meaningful, it's what transforms us into a new creation: a loving person.
Then any philosophy is good, and there's no reason to be a Christian. One could just as well be B'ahai. ::)
So you are unable to discern the difference between philosophies and religions? You are unable to see, for example, Buddhism deals with a different existential issue (suffering) than Christianity?

I'm confused that your facile objection suggests I'm something of a nihilist.
You're trying to confuse the issue again, aren't you?

Quote
It's not the story that saves. It's the Resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves, and no amount of narcissistic sophistry on your part is going to change that.
You mean the Ressurection that is found in the narrative, that is only meaningful in that context and nowhere else? The Resurrection you only read about in the text?
No, I'm talking about the Resurrection that the Church proclaims, the Resurrection that is meaningful in ALL contexts, the Resurrection that cannot be confined to text on a page.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 12:56:42 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline MichaelofSN

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Re: Celebrating nearly a year without belief. (Thank you!)
« Reply #122 on: April 20, 2016, 02:06:06 PM »
Quote from: Charles Martel
None of this sways from the fact of how one can consider someone brilliant while  at the same time  they believe in things that don't exist.

Regardless how much they care for their fellow featherless bipeds.

You're right.  This is what was in my mind at the time I wrote that; for instance, I'm currently in dialogue with a couple of Christians who are retired chemists for the world's largest chemical manufacturing plant.  If it were not for their work, we would not be feeding the world's population to the degree we are currently.  Despite having, what I consider, unreasonable presuppositions in their worldview, they are incredibly intelligent people.  There are Christians on this forum that work in the STEM fields that understand things about the cosmos that I may never know.  Another guy I talk with regularly is a biologist who works in an accredited lab.  These people are not stupid.  7% of the world's elite scientists (those that account for most of the progress in their fields) believe in a god.

Quote from: minasoliman
While I am slowly moving away from dualist tendencies, I will admit this should not be a reason for disbelief.  It is an ancient Semitic belief to be anti-dualist (and some people have seen the Scriptures as this), and there are ancient Semitic Christian expressions of faith in Orthodoxy, like St. Ephrem the Syrian that may corroborate with your anthropological concerns.  Nevertheless, I also have to say that these experiments do not necessarily prove or disprove a dualistic anthropology either.  So I will disagree with how you interpret these scientific experiments in the brain.  I don't disagree with your metaphysics though, and I don't think the internal proof of religious experiences necessarily disprove the internal and external deity who "in Him we live and move and have our being."

May the Lord strengthen you and enlighten you in His grace.

Thank you for your explanation.  I certainly did not intend to insult.

Your interpretation of the mind / body distinction is the same that I had before giving up my faith.  I was a palamite panentheist, and I believe the teachings of the Church express this.  The problem of the mind / body distinction is not the cause of my loss of faith, but I'm afraid I may have made it sound as though that were the case in light of your reply.  There are loads of reasons why I gave up trying to believe.  I would offer them here, but I am not interested in reading through the same old apologetics that I would, no doubt, get as a reply from folks on this forum.  When people hear my reasons for no longer believing, they think they have something to offer that I've not already considered.  I didn't stop "listening" for God; I'm still very much open to the idea of a god, but this is not the best format for discussions like that.  I now have these conversations face to face or over Skype or Google Hangout.

Thanks for the reply, and I appreciate your kind words.

Quote from: rakovsky
Question to Michael SN, and other atheists or agnostics: Do you think that you have such things as a soul and free will?

I say 'no' on both accounts.  We may have some freedom of choice, but the current definition of free will does not fit with what we know is occurring inside the brain.  There are some very simple thought exercises that demonstrate this.  Making known that you hold this position almost always requires a discussion about how people, who cause harm to themselves or others, ought to be treated or punished for their acts if they do not have a free will.  I can also hear the gears turning in some people's heads, "your worldview cannot account for what is wrong / right!"  :)  These are great discussions to have, but I won't have them here.  I am more than willing to discuss these things in person, on Google Hangouts, or Skype if someone is actually interested in an atheist's perspective on these issues.  Suffice it to say that I can account for objective morality and why people should be punished for harming others despite their lack of free will.  I'm not accusing anyone here of this, but a lot of times it is assumed that I've not considered these things.

I'll probably check back with the forum once more to get more people's email addresses, but I won't be checking back here in the thread.

Thanks again, gals/guys.  Best of luck to you folks!
No longer trying to believe.