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Author Topic: WELCOME, BR. MAX, OFC  (Read 9236 times) Average Rating: 0
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Linus7
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« on: November 19, 2003, 11:25:04 PM »

Welcome, Br. Max!

Hey everyone!

Please welcome Br. Max, OFC.

He has been banned from www.christianforums.com for being too Catholic and arguing too strenuously with the so-called "Messianics" over there.

Anyway, I guess I should let him tell his own story.

I'm glad he's come over here.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 11:26:05 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2003, 01:52:53 AM »

Linus,

I knew you would get someone in trouble !!!

BR Max ,  I welcome you and your opinions.

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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2003, 04:35:56 AM »

Oblio isn't there to moderate for a couple of weeks and look what happens. Wink
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2003, 11:12:48 AM »

thank you for the welcome.  Smiley I have to say I am disappointed in the decision by CF to ban me ESPECIALLY without notification or warning for nothing more than sticking up for the rules of the forum and calling out those who say they are Christian but deny the Trinity of God.  I guess I stirred a little bit to hard with my big spoon!  I helped the dross to come to the surface and people don't like that.  They like things quiet and the darkness hidden.  


AS Linus said, I am basically too catholic for many of the people there.  In fact I was restricted from the Messianic forum ( even though I am of Jewish lineage) because I am too catholic.  Funny thing is I’m not nor have I ever been a member of the RCC, nor do I want to be - NOT that I have aught against by catholic brethren, I just don’t buy the notion of papal primacy and infallibility.  I have the August pleasure of being neither catholic or orthodox or protestant, but stuck in the middle of the bunch. Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2003, 11:16:36 AM »

I was laboring under a false impression, then,  Br. Max.

I thought you were Roman Catholic.

My mistake.

What does "OFC" stand for?
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2003, 01:39:26 PM »

OFC - Order of Franciscan Contemplatives.  We are Latin Rite, but we are not under papal jurisdiction.

I'm sorry if you got he impression that I am RC, I should have thought that you would have seen me arguing against infallibility and papal primacy and princely authority.

Personally, I grew up protestant to a Lutheran father and a Methodist mother who just so happens to be Jewish.  I have orthodox cousins as well as RC, Baptist, Anglican, Jewish, and suddenly I find one of my more insane cousins has decided to become a Hindu.  There is no accounting for some people.

Currently however, I am a member of the Brothers and Sisters of the Community of the Crucified One an unaligned Franciscan Order with membership from all Christian backgrounds.  We are fully apostolic and fully sacramental.  I teach several courses to the novitiate and in the seminary.  Also,  I am a member of the governing body of our order - the director of Charitable works.  

In all actuality, we tend to agree with the Orthodox more than we do the Catholics on many issues.
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2003, 03:14:39 PM »

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We are fully apostolic and fully sacramental.

How so? Just curious...

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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2003, 07:27:20 PM »

Br. Max,

Bless you and welcome!

A Franciscan at heart and Orthodox catechumen,

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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2003, 10:17:31 AM »

twenty nine: how so? welp, we have aall 7 sacraments as defined by the Latin Trandition and we have valid apostolic succession. Smiley

byzantino: there are Orthodox franciscans out there.  They may be of interest to you! Smiley

http://www.ind-movement.org/religious_orders/osbm_mack.html

http://www.ofm-usa.com/assumption/liturgy.html

http://aorcc.org/oofm/newrule.htm


http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20020710byzantine0710p3.asp
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2003, 11:15:23 AM »

Br Max,

Thanks for your honesty and welcome.

Regarding those links, none of them are to sites of Eastern or Oriental Orthodox groups. The first and third are vagantes and the second and last are Byzantine Catholics.
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2003, 03:20:41 PM »

serge: I'm sorry yes I know.  The link I had for the EO Franciscans is a dead link.  It's been a while since I looked for any info on them, but I do know they are out there.  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2003, 04:03:55 PM »

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The link I had for the EO Franciscans is a dead link.  It's been a while since I looked for any info on them, but I do know they are out there.


Perhaps you should have a look at this: Who is Orthodox?

If the group isn't in a recognized Orthodox church, it isn't Eastern Orthodox, no matter what they say. The fact that the first link was to the unofficial online directory of vagante cranks answers this question.
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2003, 05:52:25 PM »

Somehow I knew the v-word would come up in this thread.

The clue was when you said you are neither RC nor EO yet "fully apostolic and sacramental," Br. Max.

Can you explain what keeps you from becoming either Roman Catholic or Orthodox?
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2003, 06:20:25 PM »

Linus: we began in union with Rome, but separated due to differences on Eucharist among other things.
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2003, 06:33:41 PM »

You may rest assured that we do not have any desire to ordain homosexuals - we do not deviate from orthodox Christian doctrine on that issue.  Our priesthood is male and married.  

As far as membership, we have over 500 active members of the order world wide all actively living their Franciscan vows.  We have almost no footprint on the web.  Only this year was the development of a web page approved and what exists is bare bones and restricted to communication between our various communities.  Beyond the members of the order, we have parishioners and general membership numbering in the thousands.  As far as generational, the daughter of one of the founding members of the order (the order was founded in 1979) is not the Assistant Superior General.  Additionally, we have strong participation amongst the youth of our perishes as well.   I understand the concern about those who say they are “such and such” but only on the surface.  I assure you that I am not one such.  NOR do I have any interest in proselytizing anyone away from their home church.  God will lead you to where you need to be.  Smiley

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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2003, 01:32:16 AM »

Linus: we began in union with Rome, but separated due to differences on Eucharist among other things.  

In what way did you differ with Rome on the Eucharist?

What were some of the other points of conflict?
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2003, 10:29:19 AM »

Linus: Rome put unbiblical restrictions on receiving the Eucharist, removing it from being a universal sacrament to one being reserved for the select few.  We also believe that the Eucharist should be distributed in both species, in a married priesthood, and collegiality.  Additionally, we reject the doctrine of Infallibility as spurious and unhistorical, indulgences as contrary to the gospel, that the current practice of “annulments” makes the sacrament of Marriage of no effect,  and that church should not protect those who are deviants just because they are priests.

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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2003, 02:40:22 PM »

Linus: Rome put unbiblical restrictions on receiving the Eucharist, removing it from being a universal sacrament to one being reserved for the select few.  We also believe that the Eucharist should be distributed in both species, in a married priesthood, and collegiality.  Additionally, we reject the doctrine of Infallibility as spurious and unhistorical, indulgences as contrary to the gospel, that the current practice of “annulments” makes the sacrament of Marriage of no effect,  and that church should not protect those who are deviants just because they are priests.



Sounds like you are just about ready to become Orthodox!  Grin
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2003, 03:10:24 PM »

We have a vision and a mission Smiley Who knows but that some day in the future people will speak of the Patriarch of Pittsburgh Wink
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2003, 03:23:04 PM »

OK, as I understand it, Br Max, you never were Catholic but the religious order you belong to once was. (FYI, 99.9% of vagantes are born Catholics and born Anglicans.) NTS I don't agree re: the Eucharist - closed Communion is apostolic. And your church/order's former obedience offers a form of open Communion - to the Orthodox. (The Orthodox officially do not practise open Communion in any form.)

Quote
We also believe that the Eucharist should be distributed in both species, in a married priesthood, and collegiality.

Matters of discipline/rite, not dogma.

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Additionally, we reject the doctrine of Infallibility as spurious and unhistorical

I take it you are referring to the Pope. Eastern Orthodoxy, like the Catholic Church, believes in church infallibility.

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, indulgences as contrary to the gospel,

Protestant. Indulgences are nothing but the western Catholic form of substitution for canonical penance, something that exists in both East and West.

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that the current practice of “annulments” makes the sacrament of Marriage of no effect,

Abusus non tollit usum.

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and that church should not protect those who are deviants just because they are priests.

Absolutely! And to be fair, the Catholic Church teaches the same thing. It's just that many people in it have gone against this teaching.

This order sounds admirably conservative and Catholic for a freelance group. You mention, Brother, that you have priests - sounds more like a church than an order. Or do you mean clergymen from various churches who are also friars in your order?

ISTM that rather than reinventing the wheel (forming yet another church) it might have been easier simply to become an Continuing Anglican Franciscan with the Franciscan Order of Divine Compassion.
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2003, 06:07:41 PM »

Why would I want to join the Anglicans? They reject most of the sacraments, deny retention, and ordain homosexuals and women as "priests."  No thanks.  


From among the order there are those with the calling for the priesthood.  Those men enter the seminary.  I’m not sure on what the exact number of priests is - I believe its roughly 20 currently with another 15 or so as second deaconates awaiting priesthood ordination.  They exist first to serve the sacramental needs of those in the order and second to minister to any laity.  
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2003, 06:16:33 PM »

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Why would I want to join the Anglicans? They reject most of the sacraments, deny retention, and ordain homosexuals and women as "priests."  No thanks.  


What does retention mean here? The Reserved Sacrament?

I should have been clearer. Strictly speaking the Continuing Anglican Churches, almost all Anglo-Catholic in churchmanship (and they mean it), aren't Anglicans as an Anglican is somebody in the Anglican Communion (from Peter Akinola to John Spong). Sadly the Continuers seem as fissiparous in nature as vagantes and barmy Eastern Old Calendarist ex-Orthodox sects. And you can say they are vagantes themselves. But the Province of Christ the King is a remarkably stable group, having had the same bishop, now archbishop, Robert Morse, for 25 years.

The minister general of the Franciscan Order of Divine Compassion is, I think, also the archbishop of one of these groups.

That's the context of my earlier question: why create a new church when what you want already exists?

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From among the order there are those with the calling for the priesthood.  Those men enter the seminary.  I’m not sure on what the exact number of priests is - I believe its roughly 20 currently with another 15 or so as second deaconates awaiting priesthood ordination.  They exist first to serve the sacramental needs of those in the order and second to minister to any laity.

Right - sounds like a vagante church, not just a Franciscan order.

And now, the Catholic big-money question: who is your bishop? Who ordains these priests for you?
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2003, 06:34:38 PM »

AH the big money question.  I was wondering when this would come up Smiley We have had the same bishop for the last 25 years.  Bishop Edward Donovan.  

As for them having what we "want" I have to disagree.  Firstly, it was never the intention to set up a church or even to split with Rome.  Our founding members were happy to work within the covering of the RCC and the split was a long process with much deliberation on the parts of our founders.
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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2003, 06:35:01 PM »

And now, the Catholic big-money question: who is your bishop? Who ordains these priests for you?

Nobody escapes the Sergian Inquisition!!  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2003, 06:37:26 PM »

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Bishop Edward Donovan

Thanks. What church does he belong to?

Nice to hear that your church family is stable.
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« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2003, 06:38:57 PM »

He is one of the founders.
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« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2003, 06:40:43 PM »

sege: not just stable, but growing Smiley and thriving and  . . . . Smiley we average 35 new vocations in the order each year.
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« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2003, 06:40:59 PM »

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He is one of the founders.

So he is the bishop or one of the bishops of your church - OK, who consecrated him a bishop? Which church(es) is he in communion with?

A vagante Franciscan seems a huge oxymoron as I don't think the Seraphic Father was too keen on schism.
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« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2003, 06:49:20 PM »

serge: We have only one bishop currently and one Abbottess.  The superior general is elected every 5 years for a maximum of 2 consecutive terms.

Bishop Donovan was ordained by Bishop Holt who was an eastern rite bishop.
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« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2003, 06:56:25 PM »

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We have only one bishop currently and one Abbotess

Franciscans don't have abbeys - that's a strictly monastic system that Benedictines and a few others such as Norbertines use and that Franciscans were getting away from. They have friaries.

I found your bishop in a Pittsburgh newspaper article online.

Nice chap - got his start in charismatism, which is problematic - but he seems to have a problem with obedience - one of the three Franciscan vows, -+no?

Here is the group's website.

The credal statement is interesting - basically classical Protestantism, solidly Christian but not apostolic.

I see a disturbing parallel to the Polish Mariavites, who if you'll recall started out as admirably conservative too.

Quote
Bishop Donovan was ordained by Bishop Holt who was an eastern rite bishop.


1. Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian bishops don't go by their surnames - it's Bishop Tikhon, Metropolitan Kyrill and, among the Oriental Orthodox, Mar Gregorios, not Bishop Holt.

2. I am fairly familiar with who's who among the various Byzantine Catholic and other Eastern Catholic churches over the past few decades and know of no Bishop Holt in any of them.

And I know for a fact that no bishop in any of these churches would break their respective churches' rules and consecrate somebody outside those churches.

Again: which church?
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« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2003, 09:04:55 PM »



sege: if you wanted a link to a website you need only have asked and I would provided.  

http://communityofthecrucifiedone.org/

I am however offended my your unjustified attacks.  I'm here to fellowship and to share in the Christian experience.  If I am unwelcome, please say so and I will depart.  I have stated that we do not proselytize - I would no sooner try to convert people away from any Christian church as I would try to convert people to Islam.  If you ask me what I believe, I will say so - I will discuss various Christian topics even, but I will not engage in the “my church is better than your church” dialogue.

I went and checked, Bishop Holt was of the Orthodox Catholic Church of America Providence of the Holy Cross to clarify.  

As for the list of Beliefs - which is in no way a formal creed - we have the Nicene creed for that, would you have us set up a code of canon law instead so as to further alienate Protestants from the Sacraments and more importantly the Eucharist?  

As for article - the “citypaper” is a liberal free press paper distributed locally.  It appeals to college students and the cultural fringe.  Many statements in that story have been taken out of context - surprised? We weren’t, yet despite the spin and misquotations, there were positive gains in the form of souls for the Kingdom of God who decided to - come and see.
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« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2003, 09:32:28 PM »

If you want to know - just ask.  I told you when you asked, why does he feel the need to attack to find answers?
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« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2003, 11:10:57 PM »

Please do not punish me for the sins of another.
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« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2003, 11:52:04 PM »

It's hard not to when some one is so hostile, but I'm kinda thick skinned about this kinda stuff.  I'm too catholic for the prots - not catholic enough for catholics.  Oh well.  Good thing God loves me just as I am. Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2003, 11:57:28 PM »

Br Max, I do not see Serge "attacking" you so much as explaining/clarifying where you are coming from.  Do not be offended by this.  Since this is an Orthodox Christian forum where seekers and inquirers into Holy Orthodoxy are especially welcome and made to feel "safe," Serge was just doing his "job" of explaining that your order/sect is neither technically Eastern or Oriental Orthodox nor Roman or Eastern Rite Catholic so that our convert inquirers do not get unnnecessarily confused when you say you are under an Eastern Rite bishop we Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Rite Catholics do not recognize, for example.

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« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2003, 12:06:57 AM »

I stated in the beginning that I am neither Orthodox or Catholic.  Refer to the posts I first made in this thread.  Serge has been picking and wheedling trying to find something "hidden" and all he needed to do was ask flat out and I would have given the information he desired.  I did the same for Vicki, but she had the courtesy to ask privately.
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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2003, 12:32:36 AM »

I stated in the beginning that I am neither Orthodox or Catholic.  Refer to the posts I first made in this thread.  Serge has been picking and wheedling trying to find something "hidden" and all he needed to do was ask flat out and I would have given the information he desired.  I did the same for Vicki, but she had the courtesy to ask privately.

Well, stick around anyway.

We all irritate each other from time to time.

You're as welcome as anyone else.
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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2003, 12:39:00 AM »

linus: have you ever seen me cut and run because things were "against me?" Smiley I'm not leaving unless asked to.
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« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2003, 12:39:59 AM »

who knows but that we could learn from each other Smiley and I for one am always glad to learn
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« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2003, 12:44:31 AM »

linus: have you ever seen me cut and run because things were "against me?" Smiley I'm not leaving unless asked to.

No, come to think of it.

You had the Messianics ready to try Preparation H because they found you to be such a pain in the ***.

Bravo!  Grin
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« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2003, 09:46:47 AM »

who me? Grin  I'm innocent I tell you - INNOCENT!!

There are items and subjects I am willing and able to allow flexibility on - but not on doctrines and issues KEY to the faith.  One cannot say I am a Christian and deny the trinity.  How can one be of Christ, and deny the nature of Christ?
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« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2003, 11:43:17 AM »

Hypo-Ortho understands. Just 'keepin' it real'.

Br Max, nothing personal, mate. I am not trying to drive you off the board.

Quote
I went and checked, Bishop Holt was of the Orthodox Catholic Church of America Providence (sic) of the Holy Cross to clarify.


Which, as I sussed before you said this, is not an Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, Catholic or Anglican church. It is vagante.

As for the Community of the Crucified One, the article and other websites linked here earlier speak for themselves.

Thanks again for your honesty and your promise not to proselytize, Br Max, but inquirers have a right to know the real status of these groups and people like me have a duty to tell them.
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« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2003, 12:05:02 PM »

serge: I told the forum in this thread and others that I am not Catholic and that I am NOT orthodox.  What more is there to tell?  Look back at how this thread began and see that this has been paramount to the Spanish inquisition - and like Monty Python said - NO ONE expects the Spanish inquisition.

I understand your need to ferret out where I come from and where I stand so that you can slot me into a little box, but you will find that I do not fit neatly into any box you would place me in.  I have this rude habit of thinking for myself and of asking questions other people never think of. Smiley That is the biggest problem I had at the other forum mentioned by Linus.  I do not fit into any of their theological boxes.  

CF offeres several "congregational" choices.  

Protestant/reformed - I don't fit there because I am both liturgical and sacramental and I happen to like the Virgin so . . . .

Catholic - I'm not ultra-montanist, reject infallibility and indulgences so I do not fit there . . .

Orthodox - I'm not orthodox - I really do not know enough about the orthodox to say more than that - hence why I ultimately agreed to join this forum. ( I like to learn )

Messianic - While by the Law I am a Jew, I have the nerve to be too Christian for this group . . .

Charismatic - This group bugs me the worst.  I am Charismatic, but these people are all  that gives Charismatic a bad name.  Left wing loonies for the most part.  I agreed more with the people who were against the Charismatic than with these fringe Pentecostal.  They have no sense of order, humility or decorum.


So - where do I fit?  You will find that I am very unlike what you expect me to be. Grin
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« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2003, 01:00:44 PM »

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serge: I told the forum in this thread and others that I am not Catholic and that I am NOT orthodox.  What more is there to tell?

Again, thanks for being honest about that.

Quote
I understand your need to ferret out where I come from and where I stand so that you can slot me into a little box

Looking at the many, many named and categorized heresies (including obscure ones most of us have never heard of) condemned by the Church Catholic in the early centuries of its life, it seems I'm in good, un-PC company.

Quote
but you will find that I do not fit neatly into any box you would place me in.  I have this rude habit of thinking for myself and of asking questions other people never think of.  That is the biggest problem I had at the other forum mentioned by Linus.  I do not fit into any of their theological boxes.
 

You and your church's website have answered all these questions. You are a Protestant who belongs to a church with vagante orders founded and run by an ex-RC of the charismatic persuasion.

Quote
CF offeres several "congregational" choices.  

Protestant/reformed - I don't fit there because I am both liturgical and sacramental and I happen to like the Virgin so . . . .

Catholic - I'm not ultra-montanist, reject infallibility and indulgences so I do not fit there . . .

Orthodox - I'm not orthodox - I really do not know enough about the orthodox to say more than that - hence why I ultimately agreed to join this forum. ( I like to learn )

Messianic - While by the Law I am a Jew, I have the nerve to be too Christian for this group . . .

Charismatic - This group bugs me the worst.  I am Charismatic, but these people are all  that gives Charismatic a bad name.  Left wing loonies for the most part.  I agreed more with the people who were against the Charismatic than with these fringe Pentecostal.  They have no sense of order, humility or decorum.


I understand and in ways share your antipathy to the Anglican Communion, but you sound a lot like a classical Anglican.

According to halakah you aren't a Jew if your mum became a Methodist before you were born - halakah says if a Jew joins another religion, he stops being a Jew. If she wasn't Methodist when you were born, you would have been a Jew by birth but if you have been baptized a Christian as I assume you have, then again, you aren't a Jew. You're somebody of Jewish heritage.

Quote
So - where do I fit?  You will find that I am very unlike what you expect me to be.


One of a long thin line of well-meaning high-church Protestants! Most have been Anglican or Lutheran (wow, what a place!) but there have been Methodist and even Congregational ministers of this bent.

P.S. The Lion of Judah avatar (he could be Aslan too) is way cool.

Oh, and what do you mean by retention? And by infallibility do you mean you reject church infallibility or papal infallibility?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2003, 01:09:13 PM by Serge » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2003, 02:04:46 PM »

Quote
I told the forum in this thread and others that I am not Catholic and that I am NOT orthodox.  What more is there to tell?  Look back at how this thread began and see that this has been paramount to the Spanish inquisition - and like Monty Python said - NO ONE expects the Spanish inquisition.

But you claim that your group has "valid apostolic succession". Anyone is welcome on this forum, but if you make statements like this just be prepared to back them up.

Pax,
Greg
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Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8
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