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Author Topic: Holocaust Conspiracy?  (Read 3037 times) Average Rating: 0
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Elisha
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« on: November 19, 2003, 05:59:24 PM »

What does everyone think about the Holocaust?  I have a Palestinian friend  who believes it's just a Jewish conspiracy, thinks the Jews run Amercia and so forth.  He grew up over there, but has lived here for 5+ years.  He is Antiochian but was JP and dad the priest changed jurisdictions a while ago because of reasons unknown to me.  My priest (OCA) says that he can't help it - it's part of his culture.
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2003, 06:12:06 PM »

I believe the Holocaust did take place but the numbers a way off. The six million Jews that died where not all Jews. This number includes many Catholics, Serbs, Russians and other groups the Nazis decided were not fit to live. The Jews hurt their case when they try to deny the suffering that many others were subjected to because of  a psychopath.

I remember the Pope put a flower by a Cross comforting Catholics that died in a death camp. The Jews protested that far more Jews died there and the Cross should come down. Its this sort of behavior that creates world wide anti-Semitism. Many Jews just think their suffering counts and the suffering of others is not as important.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 06:13:57 PM by Innocent » Logged
Bogoliubtsy
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2003, 06:22:28 PM »

I think it's been pretty well documented that it's not any kind of a myth or distortion of history.
However, I do find the attention it gets, in light of so many other similar attrocities, kind of odd. Even now, 60 years later, there are documentaries being made(i just saw one with an interview of Hitler's personal secretary...very good); and I was told  a number of years ago by a German student that the history of it is talked about incessently in German schools, to the point of overkill.
Of course, it should be talked about and never forgotten! But, what about the other holocausts that don't get the same publicity? What about the Armenian genocide?(The one Hitler made mention to when devising his Holocaust and how he could "pull it off" by saying "But who remembers the genocide of the Armenians?") What about the Ukrainian starvations of the 1930's? And of course, what about Russia and all of the Gulag's of the former Soviet bloc? What about the 100 million dead at the hands of Communism world-wide? These things aren't as widely talked about.
I suppose there are various reasons the Jewish Holocaust has gotten so much attention- One interesting theory I've heard(I don't know if I necessarily buy into it!) is that the Jewish people, from day one, have been a victimized people, and it's through this victimization that they have their identity. Being victims is an essential part of their history and psychological make-up, so an endless discussion of how they are victimized will always be expected.
Russians and Eastern Europeans on the other hand, who faced persecutions as well view things from a more Christian perspective and believe that the sufferings endured are preparing them for the Kingdom.-That they will be rewarded in heaven for the hardships and suffering is redemptive....not something that defines their character on earth, but in heaven.
Interesting theories I suppose...
I don't know where I stand, but I do know of course that any kind of mass murder isn't a good thing.

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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2003, 06:35:38 PM »

The 6 million covers only Jews; the others were in addition to that. ("Jew" in this case means someone the Nazis categorized as a Jew.)

It is foolish to discuss this topic. How can it be anything other than self-serving to say "my people were more persecuted than your people", especially when the speakers themseves aren't being persecuted? And if Jews say such a thing, I care not.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 06:39:14 PM by Keble » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2003, 06:53:07 PM »

There is no conspiracy at all.  Six million Jews were murdered by the Nazi killing machine.  Another 5-7 million non-Jews were also murdered by the Nazis.

Lord have mercy!
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Byzantino
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2003, 07:01:13 PM »

The smear campaign directed against Pope Pius XII is also outrageous. They'd rather believe a neo-Nazi playright than first-hand witnesses like Albert Einstein who praised the RCC for curbing further atrocities against Jews.
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2003, 07:10:43 PM »

Well, of course...otherwise, it would look like the RCC was actually good in some way...
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2003, 07:22:16 PM »

My view is simple.  It was a holocaust (and certainly not the worst) amongst the numerous episodes of bloodletting of the last century, engineered by the most vulgar, superstitious pagan and religious fanatic to walk the earth: twentieth-century man, with his worship of the idol of the State.

The squabble over numbers don't interest me personally (repugnant, horrendous acts of killing remain what they are), and I take no offence in the notion that an industry has been built around the Jewish holocaust, with the memories of the dead misused for manipulative purposes.

And finally, any attempt by one group to claim a monopoly of suffering for itself is always something highly disagreeable and objectionable.  If history books spare no expense to make the sufferings of Jews under Hitler the highlight of the twentieth century (the capital-H Holocaust) and become content in reducing entire waves (some worse in scope and magnitude than the Jewish holocaust) of human barbarity during the same century into levels of insignificance by comparison, then this should be decried very strongly.

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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2003, 09:30:11 PM »

I do not doubt that the Nazi Holocaust was real. As my father always told me: "People are no damned good."

But what about the holocaust going on right now in this country and the rest of the world?

You know the one I mean: the slaughter of untold millions of unborn babies.
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2003, 11:36:34 PM »

Many people died at the hands of the Nazi war machine - but no group suffered as much as the Jewish people.  As far as the Palestinian who believes it to be a myth- Can you blame him?  There is no such thing as accurate press in Palestinian controlled lands.  Not only do they suffer from the errors of Islam, but from the burdens of propaganda.  They are taught from childhood to believe that Jews are evil and out to control the world and oppress all men.  They are also taught that Islam is a religion of peace. How much of a joke is that?  I don't blame this person for believing that the holocaust is a myth.  he will continue to believe that until someone opens his eyes with truth.
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2003, 10:27:17 AM »

Br. Max -

I think part of Elisha's point is that the Palestinian to whom he referred is a Christian.

In my Church there are a number of Palestinian immigrants, some of them from Jerusalem itself. They will tell you, as they told me, that they have been persecuted by both the Muslims and the Israeli government.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2003, 10:28:12 AM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2003, 02:42:19 PM »

Linus: We have a mission in Israel.  ALL of those who have gone there come back with the same report.  There are many good Palestinians who work with the Israeli for the betterment of all.  They are often ambulance drivers, medics, shop owners, etc.  Jerusalem is another issue.  Tensions run so high in Jerusalem it’s not even funny - and the government works to keep peace there.  I’m not saying I agree always with what is done, but if I were in the same position, can I say I would do differently?  However, the fact remains, in areas where the Palestinian authority is in control, truth in media is a joke and children are indoctrinated in the schools to HATE Jews.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

 http://www.pmw.org.il/new/index.html
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2003, 02:21:20 AM »

Actualy it's the Jews themselves (some Rabbinical pharisaic factions) who have said that the Holocaust was a reveange between different Jewish groups. The leader of the Shaas Party in Israel, a radical Rabbi, said that those who died in the Holocaust died "because they were sinful". Can you imagine that?

(Ante Pavelic (the Poglavnic of Croatia who killed thousands of Serbs and Jews) his wife was Jewish, his Mother was also Jewish. The leader of the Hungarian Nazis was also of Jewish background (and he himself was a fervent antisemite). Hitler himself had Jewish origin. Maybe that's where the idea comes from.)

I believe there are strong proofs about the Holocaust, but I also believe that there has been no justice for the Gypsies, Hungarians, Romanians, Armenians who died under the III Reich. Isaac Azimov when questioned about this, said that there was no justice for the others, because they did not have bank accounts in Switzerland, a very strong accusation from a Jewish man, against the Soviet-Western establishment that ruled the Word after WWII.

There's also another thing, the Germans are blamed for everything, while it's a known fact that Ukrainians, Poles and Croats for example, actively supported and participated in the massive killing of Jews and Serbs.

I think that every Christian is some kind of responsable for being silent or doing nothing to stop the Holocaust. In the United states and other Werstern Nations, very few newspapers reported that jews were being gassed. In many places Bishops and priests both Catholic and Orthodox did not do anything to stop it or condemn it.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 02:36:43 AM by Mexican » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2003, 10:21:15 AM »

we all share in the guilt and the horror which was the Holocaust.  However, there is nothing we can do which will undo what was done - rather, we must work to make sure that HATE like that never runs so wild again.
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2003, 10:41:30 AM »

we all share in the guilt and the horror which was the Holocaust.  However, there is nothing we can do which will undo what was done - rather, we must work to make sure that HATE like that never runs so wild again.  

Whoa!

"We all share in the guilt and the horror which was the Holocaust" ?   Huh

How so?

That happened way before I was born.

I have enough crud on my conscience without adding the Holocaust, thank you!

I plead "not guilty" to that one.

I wasn't even there. Ask my mom.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 10:42:09 AM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2003, 03:34:37 PM »

The scriptures tell us that the Lord visits the sins of the fathers onto the sons even unto the fourth generation.  

We share a part in the guilt of the holocaust just as we share a part in the guilt of the abortions committed in this country and the same is the case around the world.  The world as a whole also shares in the guilt of hate that spawned and gave substance to Hitler’s final solution.  

By allowing hate and ignorance to flourish and thrive we have allowed not only Hitler to gain power, but Stalin, Mao, Osama, Saddam, and every other master of hate and fear.  I’m not laying individual blame on you Lunis the blame is shared collectively.


Now as for asking your poor mother - dealing with you is hard enough on her, I'll not burden her with inquiring about you manifold sins and transgressions!! Wink
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2003, 03:54:29 PM »

While I agree somewhat with this some parts are off. Do Americans share in the the blame? Well those that were alive and turned boat loads of Jews away instead of giving sanctuary do. I have a problem with all this every ones at fault stuff. It tends to help spread the guilt around instead of resting it on the perpetrators shoulders. Hitler was a psycho and had a bunch of psychos following him.

I just get a uneasy feeling when I hear people say "It was the parents fault". Yeah maybe but it was mostly the persons fault. Just my opinion.

The scriptures tell us that the Lord visits the sins of the fathers onto the sons even unto the fourth generation.  

We share a part in the guilt of the holocaust just as we share a part in the guilt of the abortions committed in this country and the same is the case around the world.  The world as a whole also shares in the guilt of hate that spawned and gave substance to Hitler’s final solution.  

By allowing hate and ignorance to flourish and thrive we have allowed not only Hitler to gain power, but Stalin, Mao, Osama, Saddam, and every other master of hate and fear.  I’m not laying individual blame on you Lunis the blame is shared collectively.


Now as for asking your poor mother - dealing with you is hard enough on her, I'll not burden her with inquiring about you manifold sins and transgressions!! Wink
« Last Edit: November 21, 2003, 06:13:35 PM by Innocent » Logged
Linus7
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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2003, 06:01:42 PM »

Quote
Br. Max, OFC: Now as for asking your poor mother - dealing with you is hard enough on her, I'll not burden her with inquiring about you manifold sins and transgressions!!

Giggle . . . snort . . . guffaw . . . lol !

 Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2003, 07:44:04 PM »

Innocent: Oh I'm not lifting from Hitler or anyone else the guilt of their actions, but neither am I excusing the inactions of the rest of the world.

 Why were people so quiet?  In a great many cases it was that people secretly believed the Holocaust to be divine retribution.  They feel that the Jews deserved to die.  Any time we allow hate like that to live in the world we share a blame in what is done in the name of that hate.  

If you speak out every time you hear someone expressing ignorant platitudes of hate and do as My patron did - put your life on the line for those who are being oppressed and wrongly persecuted, then I say you are free of any complicity in the crime.  But any time we allow hatred to go unchecked and unchallenged, we share in the guilt of what is then done.
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« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2003, 07:44:57 PM »

Now where did I put my bible?  

Linus, come here brother so I can club you over the head with my bible until you repent you dirty sinner!! Wink
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2003, 10:34:36 PM »

Now where did I put my bible?  

Linus, come here brother so I can club you over the head with my bible until you repent you dirty sinner!! Wink

As long as you club me only with a Protestant Bible: it's several books lighter!

 Grin
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2003, 10:00:02 AM »

Linus: EGADS!! As IF!  Even the KJ bible I have has the Deueterocanonicals- so Tongue  BESIDES, my bible of choice is the douay - although it's way too small to club you over the head with.  The only Bible I have that is bigenough to club you over the head with is my Jersualem Bible Cheesy  Quite fitting don't you think?
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