OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 21, 2014, 10:23:51 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: is it best to stick with your own jurisdiction when considering prayer books?  (Read 3688 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2011, 03:18:23 PM »

In a Protestantism, would one expect all members of the same denomination to use the same Bible translation exclusively? Or the same hymnal - in those increasingly rare cases where such are used?

In the Episcopal Church there is an approved list of biblical translations for liturgical use, and the RSV is the standard version for looking up the readings (which can be an issue with use of the NAB, although I believe the latter isn't on the list). And until a decade or so ago we had a single hymnal; now there is a set of I believe three supplemental volumes. But at any rate.....

The part that people aren't getting here is that you are all encouraging a new convert to go on a shopping expedition for prayer books. Why should he not use that of his own church?

I use the Jordanville prayerbook because it is more complete and better translated than the OCA books I've seen. And many OCA folks use Jordanville.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,475



« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2011, 04:57:49 PM »


The part that people aren't getting here is that you are all encouraging a new convert to go on a shopping expedition for prayer books. Why should he not use that of his own church?
I don't think anyone is "encouraging .... a shopping expedition". In most cases, a new (or potential) convert will have one recommended to him/her at the beginning. As one's prayer life grows, then one can add to a personal library. A good priest, who is usually the one doing the recommending, may suggest a version of prayers with more contemporary language for, say, a younger person, but a more formal version for someone who may already be reasonably comfortable with a more formal style of language.

Even if North America were to be one jurisdiction, I would expect that there would be a variety of prayerbooks for various needs, just as various Bible translations and version of those exist.
Logged
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,260



« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2011, 05:08:55 PM »

This would be a hard one to answer.  I have not used #1, although I know that it exists.  It has been a long time since I have seen #2 and #3.  I did not keep them, so they did not fill my need at the time.  However, to be completely honest, I collected most of my prayer books at a time that I tended to trust only those books printed by Old Calendar jurisdictions and tended to avoid anything printed by St. Tikhons, SVS or the Antiochian Archdioces.  That pretty much ruled out these prayer books.  My views have liberalized a bit since that time so if I were to run into any of these again, I would probably add them to my collection.  Given the above, I don't believe that my opinion on these books is of any value, nor should the fact that I don't own them mean anything to anyone.

Perhaps sticking with one's own church and giving up one's own opinions could be considered as an expression of humility.

I just wish the OCA had it's own prayer book.

There are at least three:

1. St. Tikhons Prayer Book
2. A Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayers
3. Orthodox Daily Prayers


Opinion?
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,616



« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2011, 12:19:01 AM »

Sometimes i find the Olde English very difficult to follow, and have to refer to the Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayer for clarification.

It's not Old English, not even close.

Old English - Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum...
Middle English - Oure fadir that art in heuenes...
Modern English - Our Father who art in heaven...
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2011, 12:51:45 AM »

Sometimes i find the Olde English very difficult to follow, and have to refer to the Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayer for clarification.

It's not Old English, not even close.

Old English - Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum...
Middle English - Oure fadir that art in heuenes...
Modern English - Our Father who art in heaven...

Nice! I think we can consider this once cased closed.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,260



« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2011, 01:48:26 PM »

Modern American - "What's a father?"


Sometimes i find the Olde English very difficult to follow, and have to refer to the Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayer for clarification.

It's not Old English, not even close.

Old English - Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum...
Middle English - Oure fadir that art in heuenes...
Modern English - Our Father who art in heaven...
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2011, 03:43:42 PM »

Sometimes i find the Olde English very difficult to follow, and have to refer to the Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayer for clarification.

It's not Old English, not even close.

Old English - Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum...
Middle English - Oure fadir that art in heuenes...
Modern English - Our Father who art in heaven...

Nice! I think we can consider this once cased closed.

one*
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Trevorthodox
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - Exarchate of Parishes of Russian Tradition
Posts: 57



« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2011, 03:49:48 PM »

Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...
Logged
Tikhon.of.Colorado
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ruthenian Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Pheonix
Posts: 2,362



« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2011, 05:23:23 PM »

Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

interesting. 

my grandmother (from Germany) learned english from Shakesphere.  when I was little, she alwayse sopke using "thee" and "thou".  I guess I'm just used to it  Grin
Logged

"It is true that I am not always faithful, but I never lose courage, I leave myself in the Arms of Our Lord." - St. Thérèse of Lisieux
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2011, 06:27:29 PM »

Contemporary language is not the same thing as language used everyday. People in the 1500's and 1600's did not talk like the KJV or Shakespeare's characters.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,439



« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2011, 07:27:02 PM »

Modern American - "What's a father?"

*rimshot*
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2011, 01:45:02 AM »

Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Trevorthodox
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - Exarchate of Parishes of Russian Tradition
Posts: 57



« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2011, 10:17:12 AM »



Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.
[/quote]

Isn't there? Not unless you speak regional northern British English, in which case there's YOUS!!!  laugh
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2011, 10:53:27 AM »

Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.

There's always "yinz" and "y'all," but that would "low-class," wouldn't it?
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2011, 10:55:33 AM »

Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

interesting. 

my grandmother (from Germany) learned english from Shakesphere.  when I was little, she alwayse sopke using "thee" and "thou".  I guess I'm just used to it  Grin

There's an island in the lower Chesapeake Bay called Smith Island where people still use "thee" and "thou" as part of everyday speech, although that practice is fading as more and more children go to the mainland for school. 

They make a fantastic layer cake, too.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2011, 05:15:45 PM »

Isn't there? Not unless you speak regional northern British English, in which case there's YOUS!!!  laugh

I don't know that I've ever even heard that.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2011, 05:16:53 PM »

Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.

There's always "yinz" and "y'all," but that would "low-class," wouldn't it?

I also don't know that I've ever heard "yinz".

As to "y'all", my avoidance of that term has more to do with it seeming regional than it seeming "low class".
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2011, 05:28:13 PM »

Y'all is not low class.  Grin (Plural of y'all: y'alls or all y'all)

I was raised in Jersey (Joisey) though, where I heard YOUS all the time. Still sends shivers up my spine.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2011, 05:31:44 PM »

(Plural of y'all: y'alls or all y'all)

... Why does it need a pluralization?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,475



« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2011, 05:32:16 PM »

Yep, "yous" is heard occasionally around here, too - and especially as "yous guys". Or is it "youse"? Grin
Logged
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2011, 05:53:12 PM »


... Why does it need a pluralization?
Y'all can be used to refer to one person. Therefore, someone invented the plural form of the phrase.

I don't invent the rules. I follow them  Cool
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2011, 06:00:39 PM »

Y'all can be used to refer to one person.

 Huh
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2011, 07:01:26 PM »


... Why does it need a pluralization?
Y'all can be used to refer to one person. Therefore, someone invented the plural form of the phrase.

I don't invent the rules. I follow them  Cool

You have it backwards.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,439



« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2011, 07:02:42 PM »

Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.

As you have read, this is nonsense. And the language I grew up with was wwwaaayy better than anything Bill of Avon came up with.

y'all, y'allz, all y'all, all y'allz, yinz, yous, youz

The "z" is not a pluralization but rather an emphasizer for the most part.

Its use is fluid.

What's y'all doin'? (the use of the contracted "is" accounts for the incorrect notion that y'all and its variants are used in the singular, although some argue it to be a non-countable.)

Might mean what are you doing in general or without expressing much interest in the question. Making conversion.

What's y'allz doin'? More directed as a question about the specific activity and greater degree of interest involved.

Adding all can point to a greater degree of emphasis.

There's many shade a meanin' here, we could talk on, but fors now we'll leave it at that.



Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,439



« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2011, 07:09:40 PM »

Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.

There's always "yinz" and "y'all," but that would "low-class," wouldn't it?

Certain words I ain't givin' up.

'tweren't don't show up much more nowadays.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Trevorthodox
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - Exarchate of Parishes of Russian Tradition
Posts: 57



« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2011, 07:12:59 PM »

I also sometimes say 'tha' instead of you, it's rural dialect, and I mostly use it with very locally with friends and family.
Logged
Trevorthodox
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - Exarchate of Parishes of Russian Tradition
Posts: 57



« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2011, 07:15:58 PM »

We're WAY off topic now!  police
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.106 seconds with 54 queries.