Author Topic: is it best to stick with your own jurisdiction when considering prayer books?  (Read 3903 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Iconodule

  • Uranopolitan
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,136
  • "My god is greater."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
In a Protestantism, would one expect all members of the same denomination to use the same Bible translation exclusively? Or the same hymnal - in those increasingly rare cases where such are used?

In the Episcopal Church there is an approved list of biblical translations for liturgical use, and the RSV is the standard version for looking up the readings (which can be an issue with use of the NAB, although I believe the latter isn't on the list). And until a decade or so ago we had a single hymnal; now there is a set of I believe three supplemental volumes. But at any rate.....

The part that people aren't getting here is that you are all encouraging a new convert to go on a shopping expedition for prayer books. Why should he not use that of his own church?

I use the Jordanville prayerbook because it is more complete and better translated than the OCA books I've seen. And many OCA folks use Jordanville.
"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Online genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,588
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch

The part that people aren't getting here is that you are all encouraging a new convert to go on a shopping expedition for prayer books. Why should he not use that of his own church?
I don't think anyone is "encouraging .... a shopping expedition". In most cases, a new (or potential) convert will have one recommended to him/her at the beginning. As one's prayer life grows, then one can add to a personal library. A good priest, who is usually the one doing the recommending, may suggest a version of prayers with more contemporary language for, say, a younger person, but a more formal version for someone who may already be reasonably comfortable with a more formal style of language.

Even if North America were to be one jurisdiction, I would expect that there would be a variety of prayerbooks for various needs, just as various Bible translations and version of those exist.

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
This would be a hard one to answer.  I have not used #1, although I know that it exists.  It has been a long time since I have seen #2 and #3.  I did not keep them, so they did not fill my need at the time.  However, to be completely honest, I collected most of my prayer books at a time that I tended to trust only those books printed by Old Calendar jurisdictions and tended to avoid anything printed by St. Tikhons, SVS or the Antiochian Archdioces.  That pretty much ruled out these prayer books.  My views have liberalized a bit since that time so if I were to run into any of these again, I would probably add them to my collection.  Given the above, I don't believe that my opinion on these books is of any value, nor should the fact that I don't own them mean anything to anyone.

Perhaps sticking with one's own church and giving up one's own opinions could be considered as an expression of humility.

I just wish the OCA had it's own prayer book.

There are at least three:

1. St. Tikhons Prayer Book
2. A Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayers
3. Orthodox Daily Prayers


Opinion?
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,253
Sometimes i find the Olde English very difficult to follow, and have to refer to the Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayer for clarification.

It's not Old English, not even close.

Old English - Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum...
Middle English - Oure fadir that art in heuenes...
Modern English - Our Father who art in heaven...
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
Sometimes i find the Olde English very difficult to follow, and have to refer to the Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayer for clarification.

It's not Old English, not even close.

Old English - Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum...
Middle English - Oure fadir that art in heuenes...
Modern English - Our Father who art in heaven...

Nice! I think we can consider this once cased closed.
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
Modern American - "What's a father?"


Sometimes i find the Olde English very difficult to follow, and have to refer to the Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayer for clarification.

It's not Old English, not even close.

Old English - Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum...
Middle English - Oure fadir that art in heuenes...
Modern English - Our Father who art in heaven...
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
Sometimes i find the Olde English very difficult to follow, and have to refer to the Manual of Eastern Orthodox Prayer for clarification.

It's not Old English, not even close.

Old English - Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum...
Middle English - Oure fadir that art in heuenes...
Modern English - Our Father who art in heaven...

Nice! I think we can consider this once cased closed.

one*
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Offline Trevorthodox

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,374
Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

interesting. 

my grandmother (from Germany) learned english from Shakesphere.  when I was little, she alwayse sopke using "thee" and "thou".  I guess I'm just used to it  ;D

Offline Iconodule

  • Uranopolitan
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,136
  • "My god is greater."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Contemporary language is not the same thing as language used everyday. People in the 1500's and 1600's did not talk like the KJV or Shakespeare's characters.
"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,037
Modern American - "What's a father?"

*rimshot*
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Offline Trevorthodox

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71


Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.
[/quote]

Isn't there? Not unless you speak regional northern British English, in which case there's YOUS!!!  :laugh:

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,534
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.

There's always "yinz" and "y'all," but that would "low-class," wouldn't it?
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,534
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

interesting. 

my grandmother (from Germany) learned english from Shakesphere.  when I was little, she alwayse sopke using "thee" and "thou".  I guess I'm just used to it  ;D

There's an island in the lower Chesapeake Bay called Smith Island where people still use "thee" and "thou" as part of everyday speech, although that practice is fading as more and more children go to the mainland for school. 

They make a fantastic layer cake, too.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
Isn't there? Not unless you speak regional northern British English, in which case there's YOUS!!!  :laugh:

I don't know that I've ever even heard that.
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.

There's always "yinz" and "y'all," but that would "low-class," wouldn't it?

I also don't know that I've ever heard "yinz".

As to "y'all", my avoidance of that term has more to do with it seeming regional than it seeming "low class".
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Offline IsmiLiora

  • Chronic Exaggerator
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,434
  • Back by unpopular demand.
Y'all is not low class.  ;D (Plural of y'all: y'alls or all y'all)

I was raised in Jersey (Joisey) though, where I heard YOUS all the time. Still sends shivers up my spine.
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
(Plural of y'all: y'alls or all y'all)

... Why does it need a pluralization?
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Online genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,588
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Yep, "yous" is heard occasionally around here, too - and especially as "yous guys". Or is it "youse"? ;D

Offline IsmiLiora

  • Chronic Exaggerator
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,434
  • Back by unpopular demand.

... Why does it need a pluralization?
Y'all can be used to refer to one person. Therefore, someone invented the plural form of the phrase.

I don't invent the rules. I follow them  8)
She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

Offline deusveritasest

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,528
    • Facebook
Y'all can be used to refer to one person.

 ???
I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

Offline Iconodule

  • Uranopolitan
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,136
  • "My god is greater."
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)

... Why does it need a pluralization?
Y'all can be used to refer to one person. Therefore, someone invented the plural form of the phrase.

I don't invent the rules. I follow them  8)

You have it backwards.
"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,037
Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.

As you have read, this is nonsense. And the language I grew up with was wwwaaayy better than anything Bill of Avon came up with.

y'all, y'allz, all y'all, all y'allz, yinz, yous, youz

The "z" is not a pluralization but rather an emphasizer for the most part.

Its use is fluid.

What's y'all doin'? (the use of the contracted "is" accounts for the incorrect notion that y'all and its variants are used in the singular, although some argue it to be a non-countable.)

Might mean what are you doing in general or without expressing much interest in the question. Making conversion.

What's y'allz doin'? More directed as a question about the specific activity and greater degree of interest involved.

Adding all can point to a greater degree of emphasis.

There's many shade a meanin' here, we could talk on, but fors now we'll leave it at that.



Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,037
Wow! Hey i never meant 'Old English' like that. I simply meant English which is outdated. I own and read a 19th century copy of the King James Bible, and am quite happy to do so, but when it comes to prayer, it has to be sincere, intimate and from the heart. If I read the Jordanville as is, it's just too impersonal. Today's English is the only way for me. I read Jordanville, but the thees and thous are out!

Our Father in heaven, may your name be hallowed...

Structurally, I think current Modern English is quite degraded compared to Early Modern English. For instance, there is no longer any clear word for the 2nd person plural, which there is in Early Modern English.

There's always "yinz" and "y'all," but that would "low-class," wouldn't it?

Certain words I ain't givin' up.

'tweren't don't show up much more nowadays.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline Trevorthodox

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
I also sometimes say 'tha' instead of you, it's rural dialect, and I mostly use it with very locally with friends and family.

Offline Trevorthodox

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
We're WAY off topic now!  :police: