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Author Topic: Martial Arts and Orthodoxy?  (Read 8231 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2011, 08:51:35 PM »


Read again.  "Radical Anabaptists".
The high focus on pacifism emerged during the subsequent persecutions.

A Radical Orthodox Christian would be considered Rasputin.
LOL! In the same way that a Radical Roman Catholic would be considered Ulrich Zwingli, perhaps.

The point is this didn't represent the main embodiment of Anabaptists.  This was a very small sect that was very radical, if you could even call them Anabaptists.

Zwingli did clash with the Anabaptists which partially resulted in their persecution.
Your links detail a small sect of radicals.

The Anabaptists practice Non-Resistance.  Karate is not Non-resistance.  Early Christians practiced Non-Resistance.  I see Orthodox practicing Karate.
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« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2011, 08:53:43 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.

It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need. 
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« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2011, 08:54:43 PM »

The Anabaptists practice Non-Resistance.  Karate is not Non-resistance.  Early Christians practiced Non-Resistance.  I see Orthodox practicing Karate.
And I've "seen" through history, anabaptists practicing war, but you would argue via No True Scotsman that they were not true anabaptists.

As for martial arts sparring, sparring is not the same as violence, IMO. In sparring there is no malice or intent to cripple.
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« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2011, 08:56:08 PM »

Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  
Individual EO under persecution do this. But to have permitted arab invasion of the ERE would have been an act of violence in and of itself. Do you believe that the anabaptists of the past would have allowed Muslims to come in and rape, murder and forcibly convert all of Europe?

I'm pretty pacifistic, myself, but you need to look at the logical implications of your claim "against" the EO historically.
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« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2011, 09:01:47 PM »

The Anabaptists practice Non-Resistance.  Karate is not Non-resistance.  Early Christians practiced Non-Resistance.  I see Orthodox practicing Karate.
And I've "seen" through history, anabaptists practicing war, but you would argue via No True Scotsman that they were not true anabaptists.

As for martial arts sparring, sparring is not the same as violence, IMO. In sparring there is no malice or intent to cripple.

Interesting, I'll have to look up the Ananbaptist war history & enlistment procedures & the oaths they have to say for their armies.  Nothing like a .50 cal on a horse drawn buggy.   Shocked

Sparring I agree is not the same as violence.  I've taken Tang Soo Do for 3 years, it does have spirituality, meditation on focal points, and belief in "chi", inner energy, etc.  It teaches the mental game of intimidation, and builds "self confidence" for combat.

It does not teach "Turn the cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you".

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.

I remember some of the "tennants" said after each class.

"No retreat in Battle"
"In killing choose with sense and honor"
"Obedience to your Master (Instructor)"

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« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2011, 09:05:19 PM »

Sparring I agree is not the same as violence.  I've taken Tang Soo Do for 3 years, it does have spirituality, meditation on focal points, and belief in "chi", inner energy, etc.  It teaches the mental game of intimidation, and builds "self confidence" for combat.

It does not teach "Turn the cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you".

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.

I remember some of the "tennants" said after each class.

"No retreat in Battle"
"In killing choose with sense and honor"
"Obedience to your Master (Instructor)"
Ah, ok, I think I see what you're getting at.

If I take a class that teaches me how to drive, it will probably not teach "turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." It will teach me, rather, how to drive a car.

The problem with your Tang Soo Do is that it actually *does* have, apparently, a moral code. And that moral code is anti-Christian. In my opinion, one should not be encouraged to turn to Martial arts for a moral guide in life. One should turn to the Word and Wisdom of God, Jesus Christ. Martial arts are a tool, an amoral tool. Bizaare morality and spirituality need not be involved.

In my experience in the Chinese Martial Arts and Muay Thai, the only moral code that was present was mutual respect. The rest was left up to the students.

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.
If it does not contain sparring, it is not a martial art. It is a dance.
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« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2011, 09:08:22 PM »

Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  
Individual EO under persecution do this. But to have permitted arab invasion of the ERE would have been an act of violence in and of itself. Do you believe that the anabaptists of the past would have allowed Muslims to come in and rape, murder and forcibly convert all of Europe?

I'm pretty pacifistic, myself, but you need to look at the logical implications of your claim "against" the EO historically.

Honestly, yes I do.  The massacre on them was horrendous.  They completely practiced non-resistance.  Even one little girl who was shot in that Anabaptist school, stood before the man who was going to shoot her and said "I will pray for you".  Then he shot her. Very true story.  The parents forgave the man who did this in a public statement.  

It's one of the traits that I ADMIRE about them so much.  I would have a VERY hard time practicing non-resistance.
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« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2011, 09:11:07 PM »

Honestly, yes I do.  The massacre on them was horrendous.  They completely practiced non-resistance.  Even one little girl who was shot in that Anabaptist school, stood before the man who was going to shoot her and said "I will pray for you".  Then he shot her. Very true story.  The parents forgave the man who did this in a public statement.  

It's one of the traits that I ADMIRE about them so much.  I would have a VERY hard time practicing non-resistance.
And I admire the Desert Fathers who were beaten and robbed, and were then instructed by their Abbot to break their attacker out of prison. I am not insulting Anabaptist piety, I'm just refusing to whitewash their history.
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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2011, 09:11:30 PM »

Sparring I agree is not the same as violence.  I've taken Tang Soo Do for 3 years, it does have spirituality, meditation on focal points, and belief in "chi", inner energy, etc.  It teaches the mental game of intimidation, and builds "self confidence" for combat.

It does not teach "Turn the cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you".

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.

I remember some of the "tennants" said after each class.

"No retreat in Battle"
"In killing choose with sense and honor"
"Obedience to your Master (Instructor)"
Ah, ok, I think I see what you're getting at.

If I take a class that teaches me how to drive, it will probably not teach "turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." It will teach me, rather, how to drive a car.

The problem with your Tang Soo Do is that it actually *does* have, apparently, a moral code. And that moral code is anti-Christian. In my opinion, one should not be encouraged to turn to Martial arts for a moral guide in life. One should turn to the Word and Wisdom of God, Jesus Christ. Martial arts are a tool, an amoral tool. Bizaare morality and spirituality need not be involved.

In my experience in the Chinese Martial Arts and Muay Thai, the only moral code that was present was mutual respect. The rest was left up to the students.

But if Muay Thai only taugh mutual respect as a moral code, why not just hand the students a Bible?  The rest would be pointless.  I mean I know what you are saying, yes if somebody did a home invasion, I would defend, but IMO, a perfect Christian would be non-resistant as Jesus was.  He could have dropped the entire world's population dead period the moment they came for him. He didn't resist though.
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« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2011, 09:13:30 PM »

Sparring I agree is not the same as violence.  I've taken Tang Soo Do for 3 years, it does have spirituality, meditation on focal points, and belief in "chi", inner energy, etc.  It teaches the mental game of intimidation, and builds "self confidence" for combat.

It does not teach "Turn the cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you".

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.

I remember some of the "tennants" said after each class.

"No retreat in Battle"
"In killing choose with sense and honor"
"Obedience to your Master (Instructor)"
Ah, ok, I think I see what you're getting at.

If I take a class that teaches me how to drive, it will probably not teach "turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." It will teach me, rather, how to drive a car.

The problem with your Tang Soo Do is that it actually *does* have, apparently, a moral code. And that moral code is anti-Christian. In my opinion, one should not be encouraged to turn to Martial arts for a moral guide in life. One should turn to the Word and Wisdom of God, Jesus Christ. Martial arts are a tool, an amoral tool. Bizaare morality and spirituality need not be involved.

In my experience in the Chinese Martial Arts and Muay Thai, the only moral code that was present was mutual respect. The rest was left up to the students.

But if Muay Thai only taugh mutual respect as a moral code, why not just hand the students a Bible?  The rest would be pointless.  I mean I know what you are saying, yes if somebody did a home invasion, I would defend, but IMO, a perfect Christian would be non-resistant as Jesus was.  He could have dropped the entire world's population dead period the moment they came for him. He didn't resist though.
You're misunderstanding me. Muay Thai requires moral respect insofar as it permits a tolerable training environment. It did not purport to be a moral authority.

You're using this logic: Why teach people to fly airplanes? Why not just hand them the Bible?
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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2011, 09:15:59 PM »

Honestly, yes I do.  The massacre on them was horrendous.  They completely practiced non-resistance.  Even one little girl who was shot in that Anabaptist school, stood before the man who was going to shoot her and said "I will pray for you".  Then he shot her. Very true story.  The parents forgave the man who did this in a public statement.  

It's one of the traits that I ADMIRE about them so much.  I would have a VERY hard time practicing non-resistance.
And I admire the Desert Fathers who were beaten and robbed, and were then instructed by their Abbot to break their attacker out of prison. I am not insulting Anabaptist piety, I'm just refusing to whitewash their history.

Sorry, I'll just disagree.  It was a radical sect.  I've had the honor of learning in depth of these people, even attended their churches.  In fact I'm in a constant battle between Orthodoxy and Anabaptist (which is why I am here trying to figure stuff out).

But anyway, as far as martial arts, I just think that the point of it is self defense, learning to fight both mentally and "spiritually".   Mind - Body - Spirit.  I think this is not the pacifism, turning the cheek, praying for persecutors...

Hah, cool... I kind of forgot about that story of the prison break. Thanks for reminding me.   It's inspiring.
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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2011, 09:19:10 PM »

But anyway, as far as martial arts, I just think that the point of it is self defense, learning to fight both mentally and "spiritually".   Mind - Body - Spirit.  I think this is not the pacifism, turning the cheek, praying for persecutors...
That is one point. Other points include:

Dressing up in silk costumes or board shorts to feel cool
Building a healthy body
Reducing aggression by de-mystifying physical confrontation
Learning how to avoid confrontations
Building social bonds
The virtue of obedience
etc.

Sorry, I'll just disagree.  It was a radical sect.  I've had the honor of learning in depth of these people, even attended their churches.  In fact I'm in a constant battle between Orthodoxy and Anabaptist (which is why I am here trying to figure stuff out).
I'm curious, do you know what happens to an EO if they kill someone, even in self defense or war? They are excommunicated for at least one year and it is treated as a serious sin.
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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2011, 09:28:43 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need. 

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.
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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2011, 09:33:43 PM »

But anyway, as far as martial arts, I just think that the point of it is self defense, learning to fight both mentally and "spiritually".   Mind - Body - Spirit.  I think this is not the pacifism, turning the cheek, praying for persecutors...
That is one point. Other points include:

Dressing up in silk costumes or board shorts to feel cool
Building a healthy body
Reducing aggression by de-mystifying physical confrontation
Learning how to avoid confrontations
Building social bonds
The virtue of obedience
etc.

Sorry, I'll just disagree.  It was a radical sect.  I've had the honor of learning in depth of these people, even attended their churches.  In fact I'm in a constant battle between Orthodoxy and Anabaptist (which is why I am here trying to figure stuff out).
I'm curious, do you know what happens to an EO if they kill someone, even in self defense or war? They are excommunicated for at least one year and it is treated as a serious sin.

I've heard of the excommunication, but did not know it was for 1 year.

On what you were saying

Dressing up in the cool shorts (and yes they are COOL), the Bible or Christianity can't help you with.
Building a healthy body - Christianity may be able to help you with.  
Reducing aggression -Christianity can absolutely help you.
De mystifying physical aggression - We should not be physically aggressive as Christians.
Avoid Confrontations - Christianity can help you with this
Building social bonds - I've gotten some great PM's here, good people at church, and you my brother ++ ;o )  
Obedience - "Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven"

However, the shorts are probably the coolest shorts I've seen in my life.  

What I'm basically getting at is there is virtually nothing Martial Arts can give you that good in depth study and prayer can't provide.  Martial arts (if you leave out the spirituality that DOES exist in almost all of it I've seen) the lessons are merely elementary to what Christianity can give you.

Deep Christianity makes none of this stuff matter.
Check this, it's one my favs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF5qeVfdavY
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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2011, 09:36:11 PM »

De mystifying physical aggression - We should not be physically aggressive as Christians.
I meant that sparring allows one to see that physical confrontation is not a magical solution to one's problems.

Uh, I wasn't trying to argue that Martial Arts give you something that is lacking in Christianity. We who are in the world do have hobbies and practices that aren't necessary for our salvation or the salvation of the world, you know.  laugh But, hey, why go to the gym, when Mt. Athos monks have healthier bodies doing their daily labors and eating vegetarian?  Wink

http://books.google.com/books?id=9lvo4EmkTQsC&pg=PA63&dq=wisdom+of+the+desert+hunter&hl=en&ei=KAy-Tb3aA-e70QHYoYzRBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2011, 09:38:50 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need. 

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?
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« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2011, 09:40:17 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?
What if we encounter a non-Christian woman about to be murdered? What ought we to do, if being a human shield isn't a viable option?
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« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2011, 09:46:15 PM »

De mystifying physical aggression - We should not be physically aggressive as Christians.
I meant that sparring allows one to see that physical confrontation is not a magical solution to one's problems.

Uh, I wasn't trying to argue that Martial Arts give you something that is lacking in Christianity. We who are in the world do have hobbies and practices that aren't necessary for our salvation or the salvation of the world, you know.  laugh But, hey, why go to the gym, when Mt. Athos monks have healthier bodies doing their daily labors and eating vegetarian?  Wink

I agree with you & what you are saying.

The issue on some of this stuff is the "why" factor.  It's like you asked, "why go to the gym".  Why do we go to the gym?  Some for vanity, some for health, some for strength, some for physical rehab, some a mixture.

True health to the monks on Athos came from daily labor and eating the raw vegetation that God provided.  If you check out youtube on "raw food" you'll see slews of videos of insanely healthy people who got that way merely by eating the creation in its true form & uncooked.

It's been ingrained in many of us, including me, to take a health shake and pump iron.  Even the martial arts for defense.  

But it makes me wonder, if I just took what God made for me, would I be better off in health, in confrontation, etc.   If I didn't let the distractions of Martial arts, pumping iron, health drinks, high protein diets, etc etc etc get in the way, would I live to be 100+ like many of the Athos monks?

Anyway on Martial Arts, I just think it's "incompatible" with much of Christian teaching.  "Martial Arts" is a very BROAD term though, and there are many flavors.  I'm not sure about the more "plain physical ones" as I don't have experience.
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« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2011, 09:48:07 PM »

Anyway on Martial Arts, I just think it's "incompatible" with much of Christian teaching.  "Martial Arts" is a very BROAD term though, and there are many flavors.  I'm not sure about the more "plain physical ones" as I don't have experience.
I'm totally with you when it comes to distancing oneself from the pop-spirituality and "warrior spirit" material often thrown around martial arts circles.
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« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2011, 09:53:57 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?

I dont know..We are not monks. I think you would need to be one to simply take a beating. More complicated would be witnessing someone else taking a beating.. Women definitely need to know how to resist an attacker IMHO.

I think God would want my daughter to break the guy's nose and get away.... Just guessing of course   Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2011, 10:02:19 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?
What if we encounter a non-Christian woman about to be murdered? What ought we to do, if being a human shield isn't a viable option?

This is not the question for me.
This is something I pray about often.

What do you do in a situation like this?
Plead?
Pray?
Cry out to God?
Throw a distraction? (Jump in front and start singing Ricky Martin songs?)
Or get between them and plead, cry out to God, take the beating, stabbing, bullet for her and tell her to run?

But your question was hypothetical.  "What if".

Do we prepare for complete resistance on "what if's".  Do we dedicate that much time, effort, etc., preparing for an event that probably won't happen.

There's not a perfect answer for this.

"What if you were Chuck Norris and somebody had a gun and was about to murder somebody".  "You Texas Walker Ranger right up to them and get shot in the neck".   All that effort into fighting was just diminished.

"What if you were Chuck Norris and somebody had a knife and was about to murder somebody".  "You throw a hollywood style wheel kick and knock the knife in the air, proceed to beat the murderer."  Once the murderer is laid out "You heroically lift the lady off the ground".  THE END.

Or if Not THE END.

The murderer picks up the knife and stabs you in the back because you couldn't drop the lady you were holding.

What if's are what ifs.  Too many variables EXCEPT....

"What if you were very strong in the faith".

You could get between them and tell the murderer to please consider the love of God, his sacrifice, and if he's going to kill this woman it will be on his head.  Don't let him get to the woman and be between them.  Tell the woman to run if she can.

Let me put it this way, I'm not a perfect person and not the perfect person to tell you about non-resistance.

But I don't focus on hypothetical situations.  Martial arts does partially focus on these situations.  Imaginary fights, shadowboxing etc.
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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2011, 10:07:51 PM »

Bullshido... been a while since I heard that term... good site for info, though the guys there can be jerks (I fit right in!  Cheesy )... turning the other cheek ain't gonna protect the empire against the barbarians and invading armies... the Roman empire must live on!...

Question -

Jesus Christ told us to turn the cheek, love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute you.
I see many Eastern Orthodox Christians here ready for fight and warfare?

Isn't this a conflict of interest?

The very early Christians did not fight back.

This is why the Anabaptists seem to mirror this belief - Non resistance.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4

One of the many reasons I have Anabaptists listed in my faith.  They were massacred by protestants and Catholics alike and did not resist.
By all means I'm not attacking, but meekly nudging, being in the true church, isn't martial arts a conflict of interest?

This is me talking, so don't take this on behalf of the Church.  My thoughts are pretty simple.  If someone wants to convert my family or kill us over the Christian faith, I'd like to think I'd have the strength to stand and take the martyrdom.  Being killed for the faith is one thing.

But if someone wants to beat, rape or murder my daughter just because he's a sorry excuse for a human being and thinks he has the right to do that without regard to the Christian faith, that dude's about to get hurt.  Real bad.

I draw a line between self-defense in order to defend the faith and self-defense in order to protect the bodily integrity of my wife and kids from someone who just wants to harm others.  And as I said above, I'll walk away from a fight if possible, but when it comes to my family, I have a duty to protect them where they cannot protect themselves.  Martyrdom is one thing.  Just letting other people harm your family for no good reason is quite another, IMHO.  I tend to agree with Col. Jeff Cooper in this regard:

"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy." -- Col. Cooper
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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2011, 10:12:58 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?

I dont know..We are not monks. I think you would need to be one to simply take a beating. More complicated would be witnessing someone else taking a beating.. Women definitely need to know how to resist an attacker IMHO.

I think God would want my daughter to break the guy's nose and get away.... Just guessing of course   Smiley

I always thought it was interesting how Jesus asked Peter if "he had a sword", then when Peter used it, Jesus stopped him.

The Bible is vague on some of these issues other than Jesus talking about a thief breaking in a home...

If a home invasion happened at my home they would become swiss cheese or I would.  
Is this my weakness/lack of strength or is this strength and virtue?
Is this trusting in God or myself?

Would have Jesus or a disciple taken a spear to defend his home, or let the murderers go on their rampage while we ask for God to protect us and know his will - will be done?

The adulterous woman was about to be murdered.  Jesus diffused the situation in a VERY cool manner.


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« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2011, 10:22:11 PM »

Bullshido... been a while since I heard that term... good site for info, though the guys there can be jerks (I fit right in!  Cheesy )... turning the other cheek ain't gonna protect the empire against the barbarians and invading armies... the Roman empire must live on!...

Question -

Jesus Christ told us to turn the cheek, love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute you.
I see many Eastern Orthodox Christians here ready for fight and warfare?

Isn't this a conflict of interest?

The very early Christians did not fight back.

This is why the Anabaptists seem to mirror this belief - Non resistance.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4

One of the many reasons I have Anabaptists listed in my faith.  They were massacred by protestants and Catholics alike and did not resist.
By all means I'm not attacking, but meekly nudging, being in the true church, isn't martial arts a conflict of interest?

This is me talking, so don't take this on behalf of the Church.  My thoughts are pretty simple.  If someone wants to convert my family or kill us over the Christian faith, I'd like to think I'd have the strength to stand and take the martyrdom.  Being killed for the faith is one thing.

But if someone wants to beat, rape or murder my daughter just because he's a sorry excuse for a human being and thinks he has the right to do that without regard to the Christian faith, that dude's about to get hurt.  Real bad.

I draw a line between self-defense in order to defend the faith and self-defense in order to protect the bodily integrity of my wife and kids from someone who just wants to harm others.  And as I said above, I'll walk away from a fight if possible, but when it comes to my family, I have a duty to protect them where they cannot protect themselves.  Martyrdom is one thing.  Just letting other people harm your family for no good reason is quite another, IMHO.  I tend to agree with Col. Jeff Cooper in this regard:

"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy." -- Col. Cooper

If somebody wanted to kill me or my family over the Christian faith, I fear I am weak, and I would kill them first.  If they asked me to deny the faith in a helpless situation, I would love to think I'd take the Martyrdom.  If they asked me to deny the faith or kill my wife or child in a helpless situation, I don't think I would have the strength.  I'm just being honest. 

If somebody wanted to hurt / rape etc., my family, I would kill them.

The issue is, is this right?  I'm trying to search out my weaknesses if possible.

Martial Arts is a lifestyle that pushes a "focus" on fighting, defense, physical confrontation, and in many cases spiritual.
A pure focus on God, his will, his way of forgiveness, etc., is the right way.

Does that mean if somebody is raping your spouse you stand there and watch?  I doubt it.
Does that mean you can stop it?  I'd like to think so.
Does that mean that you stop it by shoving a knife in the rapists back?  I doubt it.
Does that mean that you can jump on the man, pull him off, get in the way, say prayers out vocally?  Probably.

I'm not sure and it's unclear.  But I truly feel the focus of Martial arts is not the way Jesus Christ implied forgiveness, praying for persecutors, and turning the cheek.
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« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2011, 10:40:56 PM »

Martial Arts is a lifestyle that pushes a "focus" on fighting, defense, physical confrontation, and in many cases spiritual.
A pure focus on God, his will, his way of forgiveness, etc., is the right way.

I was indeed joking earlier in the thread. Smiley But a few things about the above... first, one thing I find difficult about Taoism is it's pacifism. It is not absolutely pacifist (e.g. somewhere in the Tao Te Ching the author begrudgingly says that sometimes you have to go to war as a last resort). The problem is that, if you followed the pacifist lifestyle to the extent that that book promotes, and a war did come upon you, you wouldn't be prepared to defend yourself properly.* I don't think martial arts have to be about real fighting or physical confrontation, but they can teach you how to handle yourself on the off chance that you do find yourself in need of such skills (and by handle yourself I don't just mean physically, but also psychologically). Jesus told the disciple (Peter was it?) not to use his sword when they arrested Jesus, and Jesus healed the man's ear that had been injured... but it's telling that the disciple was carrying around a sword at all.


*I realise that there's diversity in Taoism, and Taoists practice martial arts, I'm thinking mainly of the works attributed to Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu here.
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« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2011, 11:04:35 PM »

Martial Arts is a lifestyle that pushes a "focus" on fighting, defense, physical confrontation, and in many cases spiritual.
A pure focus on God, his will, his way of forgiveness, etc., is the right way.

I was indeed joking earlier in the thread. Smiley But a few things about the above... first, one thing I find difficult about Taoism is it's pacifism. It is not absolutely pacifist (e.g. somewhere in the Tao Te Ching the author begrudgingly says that sometimes you have to go to war as a last resort). The problem is that, if you followed the pacifist lifestyle to the extent that that book promotes, and a war did come upon you, you wouldn't be prepared to defend yourself properly.* I don't think martial arts have to be about real fighting or physical confrontation, but they can teach you how to handle yourself on the off chance that you do find yourself in need of such skills (and by handle yourself I don't just mean physically, but also psychologically). Jesus told the disciple (Peter was it?) not to use his sword when they arrested Jesus, and Jesus healed the man's ear that had been injured... but it's telling that the disciple was carrying around a sword at all.


*I realise that there's diversity in Taoism, and Taoists practice martial arts, I'm thinking mainly of the works attributed to Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu here.
The Tao Te Ching also says to "keep weapons and armor, but do not employ them" I.E. train a military/militia for the purpose of deterring attack by virtue of its existence alone, rather than encouraging actual combat.
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« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2011, 12:10:20 AM »

"Martial arts" would also include being a member of any of the armed services depending on how the phrase is defined, would it not? I have black belts in aikijujitsu (the precursor of aikido and jujitsu), kajukenbo, and had done kickboxing and several other arts for many years before that. As to conflicts with Orthodoxy, I would say that depends. One might also broaden the discussion to include topics raised e.g. in relation to the likes of http://ancientfaith.com/specials/christ_the_eternal_tao

One thing attractive about aikijujitsu and similar arts is how many of the more "brutal" techniques allow a choice to move or put down one's opponent employing joint locks, controlled throws, etc. rather than permanently injuring or killing -a principle obviously very important to maximize in various branches of law enforcement. Aikido, as the "martial art of love" takes this principle even further. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79PMWGtl0qM&feature=player_embedded
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« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2011, 12:44:40 AM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.
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« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2011, 12:56:54 AM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.
The second principle would argue for studying martial arts in more depth. The first principle is false -physical strength does not necessarily tell especially in the arts I'm proficient in. I'm about 205 lbs and very fit, but have thrown a 350 pound partner overhead. We have trained some very slight women who have become genuine forces of nature. No matter how strong/bulky you are I can probably make you want to cry if I get proper hold of your fingers, wrist, shoulder, ankle, knee, neck, head, elbow etc. ;-) As Archimedes said, "give me a lever and I can move the world," and the body has many, being in truth as fragile as the wings of a butterfly. This is not to say that martial arts make one superhuman or that luck (or grace) is not a factor, but they *can* teach you to put someone down safely and effectively without killing or injuring in very many situations, absolutely. Most people suppose they must kill or injure in every dangerous situation because they do not know how to do anything else. That said, it must be admitted you probably can't be sure you're not going to have to do some damage in certain situations even if you're able to deal with many without doing so, and yes, moral issues are always in play.
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« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2011, 06:44:51 AM »

If somebody wanted to kill me or my family over the Christian faith, I fear I am weak, and I would kill them first.  If they asked me to deny the faith in a helpless situation, I would love to think I'd take the Martyrdom.  If they asked me to deny the faith or kill my wife or child in a helpless situation, I don't think I would have the strength.  I'm just being honest. 

If somebody wanted to hurt / rape etc., my family, I would kill them.

The issue is, is this right?  I'm trying to search out my weaknesses if possible.

Martial Arts is a lifestyle that pushes a "focus" on fighting, defense, physical confrontation, and in many cases spiritual.
A pure focus on God, his will, his way of forgiveness, etc., is the right way.

As another pointed out, though, we are not monastics.  We live in the world and we interact with it.  There is no avoiding conflict -- the question is how to manage it.  And as has already been stated, the martial arts do not necessarily "push" a "focus on fighting....or.....physical confrontation."  I agree with you that those with too strong a spiritual element are to be avoided, but realistically, I think that's true without regarding to Christianity.  The ones focused on the "spiritual" are also the least effective in my experience.

Quote
Does that mean if somebody is raping your spouse you stand there and watch?  I doubt it.
Does that mean you can stop it?  I'd like to think so.
Does that mean that you stop it by shoving a knife in the rapists back?  I doubt it.
Does that mean that you can jump on the man, pull him off, get in the way, say prayers out vocally?  Probably.

I'm not sure and it's unclear.  But I truly feel the focus of Martial arts is not the way Jesus Christ implied forgiveness, praying for persecutors, and turning the cheek.

First, no one is condoning vigilante murder.  If I see someone raping my spouse, I intend to use that level of force necessary to stop the attack.  My preference would be to stop the attack without loss of life so the attacker can face justice, but if he has a gun, etc., you do what you have to do to stop the attack.  The force continuum comes into play in any self-defense or defense-of-another situation.  Second, you seem to be ignoring the fact that SOMEONE has to do it.  What are your thoughts on police forces?  Are they allowed to use force to stop crime?  If it is morally okay for you to rely on someone else to do your fighting/killing for you, why is it not morally acceptable for you to do it yourself?  We wouldn't apply this reasoning to other supposed sins would we?  Is it okay if I hire a thief to steal my neighbor's belongings since I didn't do the act myself?
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« Reply #75 on: May 02, 2011, 06:49:46 AM »

Totally avoiding anything with a "spiritual" component can get pretty difficult. I mean, while not making any claims about God, modern psychology treads on spiritual territory a fair bit. As always, the key appears to be discernment.
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« Reply #76 on: May 02, 2011, 10:33:43 AM »

The first principle is false -physical strength does not necessarily tell especially in the arts I'm proficient in. I'm about 205 lbs and very fit, but have thrown a 350 pound partner overhead. We have trained some very slight women who have become genuine forces of nature. No matter how strong/bulky you are I can probably make you want to cry if I get proper hold of your fingers, wrist, shoulder, ankle, knee, neck, head, elbow etc. ;-) As Archimedes said, "give me a lever and I can move the world," and the body has many, being in truth as fragile as the wings of a butterfly.
I was referring to a full-contact fight, not exercise drills, though.
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« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2011, 10:53:05 AM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.

I agree that is often the case but not always.

My son was a black belt by 9th grade ( he is 22 now and has his second degree Belt). Some kids who were from a rough crowd surrounded him and challenged him, not knowing he was trained. The lead tough guy pushed him, to which my son told him it would be a mistake to fight him. They laughed. He kept saying it would be a mistake. Finally, the next time the bully put his hand on him my son twisted his wrist and took him to the ground...easily. Anyone here with any training knows the move, it's very fundamental.  They then had a little discussion and all was well.

I learned of this while eating with my son at the Mall Eatery. These really rough looking kids came up to the table and high fived him "Hi Nick" Hey ..how you doing etc. Smiles all around.   I asked.....ummmmm whose that? Oh that's Jonathan from school. They are all my buddies now and he told me the story.
 
Men are very very very pecking order sensitive. You will be challenged to determine where you fit into the hierarchy.. And Yes, men are like animals. I went to a very lower middle class Jr. High and had to fight my way up the order to the top guy Michael C. I didnt weight 100 lbs. But when my turn came to fight him, he just toyed with me and allowed me to live Smiley. I then was accepted just because I was willing to fight. A life of being stuffed into gym lockers and having my lunch taken every day was something I wished to avoid.

 I learned Karate later in life remembering how that was.
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« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2011, 03:28:57 PM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.

I agree that is often the case but not always.

My son was a black belt by 9th grade ( he is 22 now and has his second degree Belt). Some kids who were from a rough crowd surrounded him and challenged him, not knowing he was trained. The lead tough guy pushed him, to which my son told him it would be a mistake to fight him. They laughed. He kept saying it would be a mistake. Finally, the next time the bully put his hand on him my son twisted his wrist and took him to the ground...easily. Anyone here with any training knows the move, it's very fundamental.  They then had a little discussion and all was well.

I learned of this while eating with my son at the Mall Eatery. These really rough looking kids came up to the table and high fived him "Hi Nick" Hey ..how you doing etc. Smiles all around.   I asked.....ummmmm whose that? Oh that's Jonathan from school. They are all my buddies now and he told me the story.
 
Men are very very very pecking order sensitive. You will be challenged to determine where you fit into the hierarchy.. And Yes, men are like animals. I went to a very lower middle class Jr. High and had to fight my way up the order to the top guy Michael C. I didnt weight 100 lbs. But when my turn came to fight him, he just toyed with me and allowed me to live Smiley. I then was accepted just because I was willing to fight. A life of being stuffed into gym lockers and having my lunch taken every day was something I wished to avoid.

 I learned Karate later in life remembering how that was.

In no way am I trying to personally attack you in what I am saying so please forgive if I offend.

But this is exactly what I am talking about.

Jesus our Lord told us to turn the other cheek. 
Martial arts taught your son to twist his wrist to the ground.

Which advice do you think your son should know?
Which one makes our son "truly" stronger?

Do you want him to achieve victory in his soul, or in the world?

I know how hard it is.  Believe me I face the same issues.  My thoughts would be to FIGHT, and teach my son to fight.  But is it right?
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« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2011, 06:09:50 PM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.

I agree that is often the case but not always.

My son was a black belt by 9th grade ( he is 22 now and has his second degree Belt). Some kids who were from a rough crowd surrounded him and challenged him, not knowing he was trained. The lead tough guy pushed him, to which my son told him it would be a mistake to fight him. They laughed. He kept saying it would be a mistake. Finally, the next time the bully put his hand on him my son twisted his wrist and took him to the ground...easily. Anyone here with any training knows the move, it's very fundamental.  They then had a little discussion and all was well.

I learned of this while eating with my son at the Mall Eatery. These really rough looking kids came up to the table and high fived him "Hi Nick" Hey ..how you doing etc. Smiles all around.   I asked.....ummmmm whose that? Oh that's Jonathan from school. They are all my buddies now and he told me the story.
 
Men are very very very pecking order sensitive. You will be challenged to determine where you fit into the hierarchy.. And Yes, men are like animals. I went to a very lower middle class Jr. High and had to fight my way up the order to the top guy Michael C. I didnt weight 100 lbs. But when my turn came to fight him, he just toyed with me and allowed me to live Smiley. I then was accepted just because I was willing to fight. A life of being stuffed into gym lockers and having my lunch taken every day was something I wished to avoid.

 I learned Karate later in life remembering how that was.

In no way am I trying to personally attack you in what I am saying so please forgive if I offend.

But this is exactly what I am talking about.

Jesus our Lord told us to turn the other cheek. 
Martial arts taught your son to twist his wrist to the ground.

Which advice do you think your son should know?
Which one makes our son "truly" stronger?

Do you want him to achieve victory in his soul, or in the world?

I know how hard it is.  Believe me I face the same issues.  My thoughts would be to FIGHT, and teach my son to fight.  But is it right?

I think the ability to use minimum force because you are well trained is fitting and proper. Allowing someone to beat you to a pulp is not really turning the other cheek. I think you may have miss understood this saying.

How much more violent is a beating? How much more damaged would the attacker be spiritually if he were allowed to hurt someone badly? No, it's far better to use just enough force to end a situation and then make peace. The untrained person will tend to flail and lash out.

When I took Karate it was well known that you had to really watch out for the newbies who were far more likely to hurt you with a mistake then a person who was trained...

It's a question of control and having discipline, which has a far better chance of a peaceful resolution then an adrenaline pumping free for all.   
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« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2011, 06:14:16 PM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.

I agree that is often the case but not always.

My son was a black belt by 9th grade ( he is 22 now and has his second degree Belt). Some kids who were from a rough crowd surrounded him and challenged him, not knowing he was trained. The lead tough guy pushed him, to which my son told him it would be a mistake to fight him. They laughed. He kept saying it would be a mistake. Finally, the next time the bully put his hand on him my son twisted his wrist and took him to the ground...easily. Anyone here with any training knows the move, it's very fundamental.  They then had a little discussion and all was well.

I learned of this while eating with my son at the Mall Eatery. These really rough looking kids came up to the table and high fived him "Hi Nick" Hey ..how you doing etc. Smiles all around.   I asked.....ummmmm whose that? Oh that's Jonathan from school. They are all my buddies now and he told me the story.
 
Men are very very very pecking order sensitive. You will be challenged to determine where you fit into the hierarchy.. And Yes, men are like animals. I went to a very lower middle class Jr. High and had to fight my way up the order to the top guy Michael C. I didnt weight 100 lbs. But when my turn came to fight him, he just toyed with me and allowed me to live Smiley. I then was accepted just because I was willing to fight. A life of being stuffed into gym lockers and having my lunch taken every day was something I wished to avoid.

 I learned Karate later in life remembering how that was.

In no way am I trying to personally attack you in what I am saying so please forgive if I offend.

But this is exactly what I am talking about.

Jesus our Lord told us to turn the other cheek.  
Martial arts taught your son to twist his wrist to the ground.

Which advice do you think your son should know?
Which one makes our son "truly" stronger?

Do you want him to achieve victory in his soul, or in the world?

I know how hard it is.  Believe me I face the same issues.  My thoughts would be to FIGHT, and teach my son to fight.  But is it right?

And yes by all means teach your son some form of karate. He is far less likely to ever be in a fight and will know how to walk away or end things with a minimum of violence.

And if you have a daughter, you should definitely teach her how to defend herself from attack.
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« Reply #81 on: May 02, 2011, 06:23:05 PM »

Allowing someone to beat you to a pulp is not really turning the other cheek. I think you may have miss understood this saying.

What is your understanding of the saying?  I've struggled a bit with this myself, being a not-so hypothetical issue for me, and I find some of the Fundie arguments very lacking. 

I'm not trying to argue, just point out that Christ and His martyrs allowed themselves to be physically abused to the point of torture and death?  Perhaps there is a distinction between doing that for religious beliefs.  Or, is that a way in which we justify self-defense and violence?
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« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2011, 07:03:19 PM »

Allowing someone to beat you to a pulp is not really turning the other cheek. I think you may have miss understood this saying.

What is your understanding of the saying?  I've struggled a bit with this myself, being a not-so hypothetical issue for me, and I find some of the Fundie arguments very lacking. 

I'm not trying to argue, just point out that Christ and His martyrs allowed themselves to be physically abused to the point of torture and death?  Perhaps there is a distinction between doing that for religious beliefs.  Or, is that a way in which we justify self-defense and violence?

i would appreciate some discussion as well.

My point is that things are rarely clear cut like being arrested for your faith and then being sent to the Gulag or Arena.

Saints have indeed allowed themselves to be robbed and beaten. I think the rest of us would try to defend ourselves and do a very poor job of it hurting people or getting hurt far more than necessary.

Turning the other cheek does not include allowing a young woman to be sexually assaulted. Any religion that teaches a young woman to sit back and take it rather than mount a defense is missing something IMHO.

I think turning the other cheek may be more about not being goaded. There are just wars and there is also justifiable self defense.
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« Reply #83 on: May 02, 2011, 11:25:25 PM »

lotsa lulz here. Tried to avoid this thread.

Black belt? As a teen-ager in any school that will give a teen a black belt is going to get you in trouble with the most middling of a high school wrestler or a kid with maybe 3 months of decent boxing lessons or even your average kid with more than one brother.

Really, until you list the number of real, "live" altercations you have been in and the weapons involved, all is just idle speculation.

Best defense: avoid.
Next: run.
Next: comply.
Next: grow up in a world where violence is part and parcel of life.

The last is best choice really. And the saddest.

Nice resume xariskai. A brilliant guy who actually pursues a well regarded and possibly viable live martial art. Much respect.

For most folks in America. Get your kid on the wrestling team. Role-playing antiquated and mannered "martial" arts with non-athletes is pointless. And get them a few months of boxing lessons at a REAL local boxing gym now and then.

And teach how to use a firearm and practice a lot.

Or just realize the chance of being injured in America if you don't live in a crime trap is almost nil. And spending all that time and energy on probably ineffectively defending yourself against someone who has you by surprise and lives off violence ain't worth and that effort and anxiety.

Wrestling is still grand. The sport of Kings. Boxing lessons are great, but participating in the sport live probably ain't worth the head trauma over the long haul.
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« Reply #84 on: May 02, 2011, 11:27:37 PM »

As far as turning the other cheek goes outside of Christian piety. No better lesson to learn than how to take a beating and get back up with dignity, than to give one with pride.

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« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2011, 12:47:57 AM »

For most folks in America. Get your kid on the wrestling team. Role-playing antiquated and mannered "martial" arts with non-athletes is pointless. And get them a few months of boxing lessons at a REAL local boxing gym now and then.
Amen. Plus, the more alive they train, the less pop-spirituality/morality you're likely to get.
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« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2011, 08:23:58 AM »

lotsa lulz here. Tried to avoid this thread.

Black belt? As a teen-ager in any school that will give a teen a black belt is going to get you in trouble with the most middling of a high school wrestler or a kid with maybe 3 months of decent boxing lessons or even your average kid with more than one brother.

Really, until you list the number of real, "live" altercations you have been in and the weapons involved, all is just idle speculation.

Best defense: avoid.
Next: run.
Next: comply.
Next: grow up in a world where violence is part and parcel of life.

The last is best choice really. And the saddest.

Nice resume xariskai. A brilliant guy who actually pursues a well regarded and possibly viable live martial art. Much respect.

For most folks in America. Get your kid on the wrestling team. Role-playing antiquated and mannered "martial" arts with non-athletes is pointless. And get them a few months of boxing lessons at a REAL local boxing gym now and then.

And teach how to use a firearm and practice a lot.

Or just realize the chance of being injured in America if you don't live in a crime trap is almost nil. And spending all that time and energy on probably ineffectively defending yourself against someone who has you by surprise and lives off violence ain't worth and that effort and anxiety.

Wrestling is still grand. The sport of Kings. Boxing lessons are great, but participating in the sport live probably ain't worth the head trauma over the long haul.


I sounds to me like you dont have any real knowledge of what teens are taught when they take Karate..
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« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2011, 11:18:31 AM »

lotsa lulz here. Tried to avoid this thread.

Black belt? As a teen-ager in any school that will give a teen a black belt is going to get you in trouble with the most middling of a high school wrestler or a kid with maybe 3 months of decent boxing lessons or even your average kid with more than one brother.

Really, until you list the number of real, "live" altercations you have been in and the weapons involved, all is just idle speculation.

Best defense: avoid.
Next: run.
Next: comply.
Next: grow up in a world where violence is part and parcel of life.

The last is best choice really. And the saddest.

Nice resume xariskai. A brilliant guy who actually pursues a well regarded and possibly viable live martial art. Much respect.

For most folks in America. Get your kid on the wrestling team. Role-playing antiquated and mannered "martial" arts with non-athletes is pointless. And get them a few months of boxing lessons at a REAL local boxing gym now and then.

And teach how to use a firearm and practice a lot.

Or just realize the chance of being injured in America if you don't live in a crime trap is almost nil. And spending all that time and energy on probably ineffectively defending yourself against someone who has you by surprise and lives off violence ain't worth and that effort and anxiety.

Wrestling is still grand. The sport of Kings. Boxing lessons are great, but participating in the sport live probably ain't worth the head trauma over the long haul.


I sounds to me like you dont have any real knowledge of what teens are taught when they take Karate..
I think Orthonorm was referring to proficiency in street fights that have actually commenced, not the tactics one learns in Karate to avoid a fight. Those tactics are indeed very useful.

We already fight over a lot of stuff on these forums, perhaps we can leave martial arts debates to other forums for the sake of peace Tongue

What Karate style did your son study?
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« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2011, 11:25:47 AM »

Here is a little bit about what teens and young kids are taught in my experience ( different styles and different teachers may vary).

My son started when he was six years old. He had some advantage because I had taken Karate since College so I knew what I wanted for him. I looked for a dojo (studio) that had a good kids program and didnt emphasize going to tournaments. I also didnt want him taking Tai Kwan Do as I had for reasons I wont go into. I preferred a Japanese style.

Karate especially for kids, is not about "fighting" or Karate guys can or cant beat boxers or wrestlers. It is about self disciple. This involves learning how to focus, take direction, shut up, and gradually learn how to make your body do what your mind tells it to do.

It also involves bringing into your child's life another parent figure, someone he or she can turn to and someone who will know your kids strengths and weaknesses very very well. It also teaches them to push through pain and exhaustion and not to be silly little Gilly infants anymore. It helps them grow up

I cant think of a single other thing in my son's life that has benefited him more. Any parent who is involved will tell you how much Karate has helped with school and behavior.

I also had a question about how a 15 or 16 year old could really be a Blackbelt. I had begun my training late as an adult and never had contact with kids taking karate.

The answer is that when you start at age six  or seven you have about nine or ten years of training once you get to your mid-teens.
Multiply that by two or three lessons each and every week and you have someone who can pass a Black Belt test.

Being a Black Belt does not mean you can beat every person you spar with. The laws of physics still apply. Little guy vs Big or even HUGE guy still counts. But our Teacher waits until the kids grow into an adult body before he will test them. Age 15 or so usually will do.

A lot of what you are tested on is something called Kata ( Forms) which are a sort of shadow boxing dance. Each Belt has a certain number of forms you must master. The advanced Kata are very complicated and often beautiful to watch. You must have control of your body to do advanced Katas.  

You also have had to do a bit of instruction yourself in the Dojo of newbies. Leadership and strong command count.

And yes, you have to spar with the entire Dojo as part of your test, all of the other students, one at a time. That means holding your own not "winning" each time . It means standing firm against guys three times as big as you and doing well against them, holding your form and balance and courage. It means pushing through to the end. You fight the Teacher last ( 9th degree black belt).

I have seen many many Black Belt tests. At the end, I have not seen a teen get the Belt who didnt deserve it. I have seen many teens and adults fail their test too. it is not automatic by any means.

I hope this has helped.

Marc
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« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2011, 11:37:36 AM »

Karate especially for kids, is not about "fighting" or Karate guys can or cant beat boxers or wrestlers. It is about self disciple. This involves learning how to focus, take direction, shut up, and gradually learn how to make your body do what your mind tells it to do.

It also involves bringing into your child's life another parent figure, someone he or she can turn to and someone who will know your kids strengths and weaknesses very very well. It also teaches them to push through pain and exhaustion and not to be silly little Gilly infants anymore. It helps them grow up

I cant think of a single other thing in my son's life that has benefited him more. Any parent who is involved will tell you how much Karate has helped with school and behavior.
Very cool. Sounds like it has a positive effect.
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