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Author Topic: Martial Arts and Orthodoxy?  (Read 10034 times) Average Rating: 0
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samkim
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« on: July 28, 2009, 05:39:45 PM »

Are the presuppositions (about self defence, honor, piety, discipline) behind East Asian Martial Arts compatible with an Orthodox mindset? I am mostly wondering about the idea of self-defence.
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2009, 08:14:56 PM »

 My instructor is a Roman Catholic.  He doesn't teach anything about the Buddhist/Toaist philosophy behind the art.  Conversely, he doesn't push his religious beliefs on his students either.  But he does say something very compatible with Christianity.  He teaches that we should avoid fighting as much as is possible and that forgiveness is the highest martial art because to forgive is often a "fight" with our pride.

And because he's a 9th degree black belt and a respected instructor of Kempo (Ch'uan Fa Tang Shou), I don't need to ask his opinion on self-defense.  Tongue  And actually, I happen to agree with him.  I don't like arguing anymore and will avoid altercations, prefering to apologize or make jokes at my expense.  But if I am cornered, or my friends or family are in peril, I will do what I have to do and repent later.
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2009, 08:25:10 PM »

Being cornered is when martial arts come in handy and are morally justifiable.

Brown belt in Shotokan Karate and yellow in Shichi-ryu Jujitsu  police
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2009, 08:42:47 PM »

^^I love Jujutsu!  When I was taking Aikido some years back, I learned that it evolved from Jujutsu.  Alas, all that rolling and falling (ukemi) gave me such vertigo I had to move to Kempo Karate. 

 I wish martial arts were made a requirement in public schools.  I guarantee we would see a major drop in violence, and a major upswing in self-respect and courtesy.
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2009, 08:53:48 PM »

We have a similar program taught at the military college I go to, taught by a 55yo woman and ex-marine captain. "Uncommon courtesy" is the motto they go by, and it's definitely a big help in teaching respect to the students.
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2009, 09:00:21 PM »

aikido did evolve from jujitsu. the reason both were formed is so that samurai could fight hand-to-hand even tho they had armour.

I do JAPANESE jujitsu, just btw. it works better in a real situation than brazilian, as we do both hand to hand (or foot) and groundfighting.
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2009, 09:03:25 PM »

there is actually an "orthodox" marital art form it is called systema.
http://www.russianmartialart.com/home.php
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 09:04:22 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 09:17:10 PM »

I thought systema was a Spetznatz/Soviet martial arts form?
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2009, 09:38:12 PM »

The one near me incorporated Orthodoxy into it. (I added emphasis)
http://systemanw.com/philosophy_of_systema.html

Quote
There is a reason why Russian Martial Art is called SYSTEMA. It is a complete set of concepts and training components that enhance one's life. In this case, acquiring the martial art skill is a way to improve the function of all seven physiological systems of the body and all three levels of human abilities the physical, the psychological and the spiritual.
 
The key principle of the Russian Systema is non-destruction. The goal is to make sure that your training and your attitudes do no damage to the body or the psyche of you or your partners. Systema is designed to create, build and strengthen your body, your psyche, your family and your country.
 
Systema has another name "poznai sebia" or "Know/Discover Yourself". What does it really mean to Understand Yourself? It is not just to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, that is good but fairly superficial. Training in Russian Martial Art is one of the sure ways to see the full extent of our limitations - to see how proud and weak we really are. Systema allows us to gain the true strength of spirit that comes from humility and clarity in seeing the purpose of our life.
 
As the roots of the Russian Systema are in the Russian Orthodox Christian faith, the belief is that everything that happens to us, good or bad, has only one ultimate purpose. That is to create the best possible conditions for each person to understand himself. Proper training in the Russian Systema carries the same objective - to put every participant into the best possible setting for him to realize as much about himself as he is able to handle at any given moment.
 
One of Mikhail Ryabko's words to the beginners is "Be a good person and everything else will come to you." In a simple, yet comprehensive way Systema helps you choose and follow the right path.
 
The Heart of the Church: There is an imperishable treasure deep inside the human soul - God's gift of endless joy of the eternal life. This gift is hidden in the heart - the center of our spiritual life (This link is highly recommended by Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev).
 
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY AND FIGHTING
Many people who are seriously studying Systema and are trying to understand its spiritual basis, at one point face this question: If Christian Orthodoxy is love and peace, how can it be the foundation of a martial art? Balancing non-violence and acting in self-defense is an issue that every human being has to resolve for himself. So let's take a look at it.
 
Compare an athlete fighting in the ring and a warrior defending his homeland. Both are prepared to hurt another human being, but what a huge difference in justifying their actions! The goal of a ring fighter is to show that he is superior to the other fighters, to prove that he is the best. While the goal of the warrior is to save his family, his friends and his country from death and misery. The warrior clearly has a noble goal, at that moment he is close to God. While the main motivation of the ring fighter is PRIDE, the warrior is driven by LOVE, love for his family, friends and country.
 
Thus, training to be a true warrior is not only justified, but is necessary. How else can we save the innocent people from evil? We have all seen the events in Beslan. How else can children held hostage by the terrorists be saved? Professionals such as soldiers and police officers are trained, armed and prepared for the task of saving lives. They put their own lives on the line with humility and honor.
 
Orthodox Christianity teaches us that fighting becomes a sin only when there is pride and aggression in it, or if it contains hatred, revenge or callousness, when the causes are greed, vanity, envy, desperation and other such vices. Otherwise, if it is fighting for defense, for rescue - it is a sin not to fight and let your loved ones get hurt or killed or have your country destroyed.
 
There are numerous examples of righteous warriors since the creation of the world. The first Warrior known to mankind is Archangel Mikhail - God gave him the sword - the power to fight evil; and with that sword He had banished the fallen angels (not killed but banished) from God's Kingdom, all those who no longer served God, but only served their own pride. It had to be done, so that evil does not take over.
 
We see the Prophets in the Old Testament - such as Gideon or Samson - they were blessed by God to fight the evil. All the way to our times, when during World War II, many nations had to go up against the evil.
The Word of God in the bible tells us that there is no bigger sacrifice than to give up your life for others. Thus, anyone who prepares to be a true warrior, who undergoes training and takes a weapon in his hand, accepts this possibility of sacrificing his life in the name of love for other people; in essence, he prepares to become a martyr.
 
The ultimate quality that Systema develops in its practitioners is humility. Training in Systema lets the person see his own egotism and other weaknesses and gives him ammunition to overcome them. A humble person devotes his life to fighting the evil in his heart and constantly asks God to help him with that. In reward for his hard work and resulting humility, God gives him this amazing gift of peace, joy and absence of resentment no matter what happens.
 
If humility becomes our character, there is no more room for pride, aggression, vanity, greed and envy. Our spirit will always be with God and you will fight only when it is absolutely necessary, only for a noble cause, always causing the least possible damage to the opponents, in a calm, firm, fearless and professional way. We have to do it, otherwise evil will take over. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 09:39:47 PM by Quinault » Logged
Michael L
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 10:57:24 AM »

Systema is truly amazing. As an avid martial artist for many years (no longer though) I can attest to the fact that Systema is effective; attested by the fact that many in the Spetznatz use it. Systema as taught by Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev is based in Orthodox spirituality. The breathing techniques one finds in Systema is rooted in Hesychasm and its training in general is very rigorous but full of love for you training partner. For more information on Systema's relationship with Russian Orthodoxy see: http://www.meibukanmagazine.org/Downloads/MeibukanMagazineno7.pdf
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 02:18:37 PM »

Are the presuppositions (about self defence, honor, piety, discipline) behind East Asian Martial Arts compatible with an Orthodox mindset? I am mostly wondering about the idea of self-defence.

I gave up Aikido a few years ago after feeling uncomfortable with the large amount of Ueshiba's spiritual thoughts insisted on by even the more secular instructors.

However, I don't think that self-defence is un-Orthodox. After all, Christ did say that whoever does not have a sword should buy one.
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2009, 02:26:40 PM »

I studied tae kwon do for about a year and I really appreciated the self-defense aspect.  TKD emphasizes not attacking someone, but only doing enough to defend yourself without seriously injuring someone.  Not that you can't really hurt somebody with those moves, but it's preferred only to deflect attacks and use the least force necessary.  Also, my TKD instructor was a very committed/involved evangelical Christian so he translated any spiritual aspects of the class into Christian terms. 

I also like the idea of martial arts being trained in school... really, any martial art I've seen teaches a healthy respect for everyone, from the instructor to the black belts to the white belts who just started to the person who is attacking you.  No one is meant to be a punching bag and it's much preferred to talk out disagreements than to duke it out.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2009, 02:49:46 PM »

My family (my Dad, his sister, her three sons) and I studied Isshin-Ryu karate, and our Sensai never pushed any spiritual aspect. He was USMC (Retired) and always taught that we should only use karate ONLY as a form of self-defense, and even then, we were to just disable our attacker so we could run away and get help (i.e. call the police.)

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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2009, 02:53:56 PM »

While not a "hand to hand" martial art, I have had advanced training in handgun fighting.  Some time was spent on hand to hand combat and disarming.  What impressed me with all levels of my training was the strong emphasis placed on awareness and AVOIDING conflict, even if it meant some humiliation on your part.  When all else fails, I see nothing in the Orthodox Faith that is in conflict with the human desire to defend oneself and the innocent he may be charged with protecting.
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2009, 03:43:34 PM »

While not a "hand to hand" martial art, I have had advanced training in handgun fighting. 

Despite your user name.  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2009, 05:13:09 PM »

While not a "hand to hand" martial art, I have had advanced training in handgun fighting. 

Despite your user name.  Wink

LOL - My user name derives from my favorite cigar, not my preferred method of fighting. 
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2009, 10:04:46 AM »

While not a "hand to hand" martial art, I have had advanced training in handgun fighting. 

Despite your user name.  Wink

LOL - My user name derives from my favorite cigar, not my preferred method of fighting. 

 Grin  I figured it was something like that, or maybe a tribute to Punch and Judy.
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2009, 10:34:12 AM »

I guess I am just reminded of the story of St. Seraphim who did not resist attackers, but suffered to be crippled by them.

This is an interesting video of a Qigong master in China who is descendant of Assyrian Christians. He is apparently a devout Roman Catholic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw-aDENlHWA

For anyone interested in Martial Arts, here is a video of a little known (in the modern West) Korean Martial Art called Taekkyeon, which is significantly older than TKD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt_Vbp0G7hQ
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2009, 10:36:06 AM »

I guess I am just reminded of the story of St. Seraphim who did not resist attackers, but suffered to be crippled by them.


Yes, but he carried an axe with him everywhere after that.
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2009, 11:43:06 AM »

My family (my Dad, his sister, her three sons) and I studied Isshin-Ryu karate, and our Sensai never pushed any spiritual aspect. He was USMC (Retired) and always taught that we should only use karate ONLY as a form of self-defense, and even then, we were to just disable our attacker so we could run away and get help (i.e. call the police.)

I studied Isshin-ryu in my youth, too!  Oddly enough, my Sensei was USMC, too, and a prison guard to boot.  I have yet to meet a tougher man.  He also taught us to "fight enough to get away".
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2009, 12:25:04 PM »

We're taught to take it pretty far (usually ending in the other's death/severe injury), but then again, it's not really meant to be used outside a battlefield situation.  Undecided
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2009, 01:53:57 PM »

We're taught to take it as far as is needed.  Typically, after an attacker has his energies redirected (see video ), he understands the necessity to rethink his motives.  Should the attacker decide to pursue the matter further, it then becomes necessary to to belabor the point, i.e. bring a little more pain and, if necessary, debilitate the attacker. 

I favor joint locks and throws because they require far less energy on my part than, say, punching or kicking (although we learn plenty of that as well).

My aikido instructor always used the analogy of a chair to help illustrate the point; when a chair is sitting on all four legs, you have to use more energy to move it than if it were propped up on just two of it's legs.  Now imagine the chair tilted back on only one leg; your ability to move the chair in any direction you choose requires little more than a thought and a gentle push.  It's the same way with joint locks and torques.  Owing to the fact that we naturally and reflexively move away from pain, the attacker essentially helps me move him where I need him to move. 

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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2009, 07:19:52 AM »

there is actually an "orthodox" marital art form it is called systema.
http://www.russianmartialart.com/home.php

I've heard of it. And also about hopak.
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2009, 10:19:49 AM »

Can't read Ukrainian, but Systema looks like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7_dzu4TQDs
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2010, 12:35:52 PM »

there is actually an "orthodox" marital art form it is called systema.
http://www.russianmartialart.com/home.php

I've heard of it. And also about hopak.

I've heard about it too. It's a Ukraine Dance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopak
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2011, 09:13:59 PM »

I don't believe that martial arts are compatible with orthodoxy. I asked my spiritual father, and he said that I should NOT do karate.
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2011, 09:18:16 PM »

My son's teacher was Greek Orthodox but I don't think very Churchy. He had a Kami-dan in the dojo ( an alter to the Japanese demi-Gods)
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2011, 09:40:11 PM »

Any martial art that injects New Age junk into its system is obviously a problem. Many westerners spiritualize Chinese Martial arts, for example, mystifying the concept of Chi (breath) to mean some sort of rogue spiritual energy.
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2011, 10:42:04 PM »

there is actually an "orthodox" marital art form it is called systema.
http://www.russianmartialart.com/home.php

A predecessor to Systema, SAMBO, has numerous practitioners who are Orthodox, including the rather famous MMA star Fedor Emelianenko.  An Orthodox archbishop in Japan was credited with bringing Judo to Russia if I'm understanding the story correctly, and the Soviets formed it into a sport they called SAMBO.  It's still taught around the world today.

I've studied Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai, along with a handful of varieties of Japanese and Korean striking arts and a bit of Wing Chun.  Not a fighter by any means, but I don't see what I learned as inconsistent with Orthodox Christianity.  Where I am concerned, I don't worry too much and would walk away from a fight if I could, but where my wife and children are concerned I have a duty to protect them and part of that is having the ability to do so if need be. 
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2011, 11:02:18 PM »

Here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE&NR=1

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« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2011, 11:36:45 PM »

I'm afraid I'd have to question the claim that Systema is an "Orthodox martial art". I've heard some pretty whack things about it, involving no/low-touch knockouts, supposed "pressurepoint" abilities, and other red flags.

Stuff like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJVWmQ

Is autosuggestion, not a martial arts ability, and doesn't work on opponents. The whole "soul strike" thing cannot be something an Orthodox Christian ought to get involved in. People in the West are incredibly susceptible to "bullshido"-- that is, spirituality and false claims masquerading as martial arts. This deception puts lives in danger, because people are duped into believing they can actually defend themselves. I'm not condemning all of Systema, I'm just saying that it's one of those martial arts infested with fraud.

Forgive any insult, I am merely trying to warn potential inquirers into the martial arts.
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« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2011, 01:34:30 PM »

The martial arts I experienced was very "spiritually loaded".  That's actually why I left.

It also didn't manifest itself around "turning the other cheek".
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« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2011, 01:42:51 PM »

Bullshido... been a while since I heard that term... good site for info, though the guys there can be jerks (I fit right in!  Cheesy )... turning the other cheek ain't gonna protect the empire against the barbarians and invading armies... the Roman empire must live on!...
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2011, 01:56:58 PM »

He had a Kami-dan in the dojo
Well I hope he cleaned it up before the next person had to use it.
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2011, 04:59:26 PM »

Bullshido... been a while since I heard that term... good site for info, though the guys there can be jerks (I fit right in!  Cheesy )... turning the other cheek ain't gonna protect the empire against the barbarians and invading armies... the Roman empire must live on!...
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and by virtue of Thy cross,
preserve Thy habitation.

I'd like to hear that chanted by Fedor or Andrei Arlovski before a fight.  laugh

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« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2011, 08:08:39 PM »

I have nothing of spiritual value to add, but practitioners of ju-jutsu, please note that there is no "I" in the word.

Ju-jutsu -- "gentle technique"
Ju-jitsu -- not a word in Japanese, but might mean "gentle truth", depending on how it is written

I know some people try the argument that "ju-jitsu" has been used for so long in the West that it is now correct but I just can't abide that. Especially in a culture that works so hard at getting French right -- but then French confers I'm-better-than-you points when pronounced correctly, right?
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« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2011, 08:20:51 PM »

Bullshido... been a while since I heard that term... good site for info, though the guys there can be jerks (I fit right in!  Cheesy )... turning the other cheek ain't gonna protect the empire against the barbarians and invading armies... the Roman empire must live on!...

Question -

Jesus Christ told us to turn the cheek, love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute you.
I see many Eastern Orthodox Christians here ready for fight and warfare?

Isn't this a conflict of interest?

The very early Christians did not fight back.

This is why the Anabaptists seem to mirror this belief - Non resistance.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4

One of the many reasons I have Anabaptists listed in my faith.  They were massacred by protestants and Catholics alike and did not resist.
By all means I'm not attacking, but meekly nudging, being in the true church, isn't martial arts a conflict of interest?
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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2011, 08:23:04 PM »

I have nothing of spiritual value to add, but practitioners of ju-jutsu, please note that there is no "I" in the word.

Ju-jutsu -- "gentle technique"
Ju-jitsu -- not a word in Japanese, but might mean "gentle truth", depending on how it is written

I know some people try the argument that "ju-jitsu" has been used for so long in the West that it is now correct but I just can't abide that. Especially in a culture that works so hard at getting French right -- but then French confers I'm-better-than-you points when pronounced correctly, right?

In the Karate Dojo I mentioned before ( Orthodox Sensai) they also had a group of guys who practiced Ju-jitsu. They would use the place when there was no regular classes. They allowed black belts to practice with them and maybe get a duel belt, so my son went a few times.

They were an interesting bunch. The Sensai was French and would lace most commands with either a sexual reference or curse word. Once my son needed to reverse the guy on top of him and then pin him.  The Sensai screamed ( in a thick French accent) at my son:
 "Get on top !!!!!  F...him like a Woman !!! "

To which my poor son replied all out of breath and fighting as hard as he could:  "I dont know how to F.. a Woman. I'm only 16 !!!"

Whenever he would leave  Ju-jitsu class, he would stink of cigarettes from contact with those guys...   Cheesy
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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2011, 08:25:37 PM »

This is why the Anabaptists seem to mirror this belief - Non resistance.    
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4
The Anabaptists only want to mirror an ideal of pacifism now because they were defeated in their neo-donatist separatist wars they tried to fight against the Catholics and other Reformed Protestants. All conquered peoples play nice sometimes.

Bullshido... been a while since I heard that term... good site for info, though the guys there can be jerks (I fit right in!  Cheesy )... turning the other cheek ain't gonna protect the empire against the barbarians and invading armies... the Roman empire must live on!...

Question -

Jesus Christ told us to turn the cheek, love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute you.
I see many Eastern Orthodox Christians here ready for fight and warfare?

Isn't this a conflict of interest?
First off, I believe Asterikos was joking.

Second, EO countries have historically had to defend themselves against barbarian hordes (muslims). It is one thing to allow oneself to be slain by highwaymen, and another thing to have millions of women and children raped and slaughtered by invading armies.

As for the Martial Arts, they can be done for sport, for exercise, health, etc. In actual combat, how one uses the tools one has learned is up to the individual. The tools themselves are amoral.
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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2011, 08:30:54 PM »

I have nothing of spiritual value to add, but practitioners of ju-jutsu, please note that there is no "I" in the word.

Ju-jutsu -- "gentle technique"
Ju-jitsu -- not a word in Japanese, but might mean "gentle truth", depending on how it is written

I know some people try the argument that "ju-jitsu" has been used for so long in the West that it is now correct but I just can't abide that. Especially in a culture that works so hard at getting French right -- but then French confers I'm-better-than-you points when pronounced correctly, right?

In the Karate Dojo I mentioned before ( Orthodox Sensai) they also had a group of guys who practiced Ju-jitsu. They would use the place when there was no regular classes. They allowed black belts to practice with them and maybe get a duel belt, so my son went a few times.

They were an interesting bunch. The Sensai was French and would lace most commands with either a sexual reference or curse word. Once my son needed to reverse the guy on top of him and then pin him.  The Sensai screamed ( in a thick French accent) at my son:
 "Get on top !!!!!  F...him like a Woman !!! "

To which my poor son replied all out of breath and fighting as hard as he could:  "I dont know how to F.. a Woman. I'm only 16 !!!"

Whenever he would leave  Ju-jitsu class, he would stink of cigarettes from contact with those guys...   Cheesy

I lol'd at this, hahahah.
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« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2011, 08:36:57 PM »

Quote
The Anabaptists only want to mirror an ideal of pacifism now because they were defeated in their neo-donatist separatist wars they tried to fight against the Catholics and other Reformed Protestants. All conquered peoples play nice sometimes.

Can you prove this?  This is speaking of the persecution of the 16th & 17th centuries where men, women, and children were slaughtered by the protestants & Catholics together.


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« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2011, 08:41:02 PM »

Quote
The Anabaptists only want to mirror an ideal of pacifism now because they were defeated in their neo-donatist separatist wars they tried to fight against the Catholics and other Reformed Protestants. All conquered peoples play nice sometimes.

Can you prove this?



Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants%27_War#Anabaptists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion
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« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2011, 08:42:13 PM »

Quote
The Anabaptists only want to mirror an ideal of pacifism now because they were defeated in their neo-donatist separatist wars they tried to fight against the Catholics and other Reformed Protestants. All conquered peoples play nice sometimes.

Can you prove this?



Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants%27_War#Anabaptists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion

Read again.  "Radical Anabaptists".

A Radical Orthodox Christian would be considered Rasputin.   A radical Anabaptist was Munster.
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« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2011, 08:44:18 PM »


Read again.  "Radical Anabaptists".
The high focus on pacifism emerged during the subsequent persecutions. The EO were quite peaceful under the Turkish persecutions, as well. Surely both examples of martyrdom are noble and righteous, but my point is that neither tradition is purely pacifistic.

A Radical Orthodox Christian would be considered Rasputin.
LOL! In the same way that a Radical Roman Catholic would be considered Ulrich Zwingli, perhaps.
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« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2011, 08:46:47 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.

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« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2011, 08:51:35 PM »


Read again.  "Radical Anabaptists".
The high focus on pacifism emerged during the subsequent persecutions.

A Radical Orthodox Christian would be considered Rasputin.
LOL! In the same way that a Radical Roman Catholic would be considered Ulrich Zwingli, perhaps.

The point is this didn't represent the main embodiment of Anabaptists.  This was a very small sect that was very radical, if you could even call them Anabaptists.

Zwingli did clash with the Anabaptists which partially resulted in their persecution.
Your links detail a small sect of radicals.

The Anabaptists practice Non-Resistance.  Karate is not Non-resistance.  Early Christians practiced Non-Resistance.  I see Orthodox practicing Karate.
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« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2011, 08:53:43 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.

It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need. 
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« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2011, 08:54:43 PM »

The Anabaptists practice Non-Resistance.  Karate is not Non-resistance.  Early Christians practiced Non-Resistance.  I see Orthodox practicing Karate.
And I've "seen" through history, anabaptists practicing war, but you would argue via No True Scotsman that they were not true anabaptists.

As for martial arts sparring, sparring is not the same as violence, IMO. In sparring there is no malice or intent to cripple.
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« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2011, 08:56:08 PM »

Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  
Individual EO under persecution do this. But to have permitted arab invasion of the ERE would have been an act of violence in and of itself. Do you believe that the anabaptists of the past would have allowed Muslims to come in and rape, murder and forcibly convert all of Europe?

I'm pretty pacifistic, myself, but you need to look at the logical implications of your claim "against" the EO historically.
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« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2011, 09:01:47 PM »

The Anabaptists practice Non-Resistance.  Karate is not Non-resistance.  Early Christians practiced Non-Resistance.  I see Orthodox practicing Karate.
And I've "seen" through history, anabaptists practicing war, but you would argue via No True Scotsman that they were not true anabaptists.

As for martial arts sparring, sparring is not the same as violence, IMO. In sparring there is no malice or intent to cripple.

Interesting, I'll have to look up the Ananbaptist war history & enlistment procedures & the oaths they have to say for their armies.  Nothing like a .50 cal on a horse drawn buggy.   Shocked

Sparring I agree is not the same as violence.  I've taken Tang Soo Do for 3 years, it does have spirituality, meditation on focal points, and belief in "chi", inner energy, etc.  It teaches the mental game of intimidation, and builds "self confidence" for combat.

It does not teach "Turn the cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you".

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.

I remember some of the "tennants" said after each class.

"No retreat in Battle"
"In killing choose with sense and honor"
"Obedience to your Master (Instructor)"

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« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2011, 09:05:19 PM »

Sparring I agree is not the same as violence.  I've taken Tang Soo Do for 3 years, it does have spirituality, meditation on focal points, and belief in "chi", inner energy, etc.  It teaches the mental game of intimidation, and builds "self confidence" for combat.

It does not teach "Turn the cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you".

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.

I remember some of the "tennants" said after each class.

"No retreat in Battle"
"In killing choose with sense and honor"
"Obedience to your Master (Instructor)"
Ah, ok, I think I see what you're getting at.

If I take a class that teaches me how to drive, it will probably not teach "turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." It will teach me, rather, how to drive a car.

The problem with your Tang Soo Do is that it actually *does* have, apparently, a moral code. And that moral code is anti-Christian. In my opinion, one should not be encouraged to turn to Martial arts for a moral guide in life. One should turn to the Word and Wisdom of God, Jesus Christ. Martial arts are a tool, an amoral tool. Bizaare morality and spirituality need not be involved.

In my experience in the Chinese Martial Arts and Muay Thai, the only moral code that was present was mutual respect. The rest was left up to the students.

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.
If it does not contain sparring, it is not a martial art. It is a dance.
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« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2011, 09:08:22 PM »

Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  
Individual EO under persecution do this. But to have permitted arab invasion of the ERE would have been an act of violence in and of itself. Do you believe that the anabaptists of the past would have allowed Muslims to come in and rape, murder and forcibly convert all of Europe?

I'm pretty pacifistic, myself, but you need to look at the logical implications of your claim "against" the EO historically.

Honestly, yes I do.  The massacre on them was horrendous.  They completely practiced non-resistance.  Even one little girl who was shot in that Anabaptist school, stood before the man who was going to shoot her and said "I will pray for you".  Then he shot her. Very true story.  The parents forgave the man who did this in a public statement.  

It's one of the traits that I ADMIRE about them so much.  I would have a VERY hard time practicing non-resistance.
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« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2011, 09:11:07 PM »

Honestly, yes I do.  The massacre on them was horrendous.  They completely practiced non-resistance.  Even one little girl who was shot in that Anabaptist school, stood before the man who was going to shoot her and said "I will pray for you".  Then he shot her. Very true story.  The parents forgave the man who did this in a public statement.  

It's one of the traits that I ADMIRE about them so much.  I would have a VERY hard time practicing non-resistance.
And I admire the Desert Fathers who were beaten and robbed, and were then instructed by their Abbot to break their attacker out of prison. I am not insulting Anabaptist piety, I'm just refusing to whitewash their history.
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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2011, 09:11:30 PM »

Sparring I agree is not the same as violence.  I've taken Tang Soo Do for 3 years, it does have spirituality, meditation on focal points, and belief in "chi", inner energy, etc.  It teaches the mental game of intimidation, and builds "self confidence" for combat.

It does not teach "Turn the cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you".

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.

I remember some of the "tennants" said after each class.

"No retreat in Battle"
"In killing choose with sense and honor"
"Obedience to your Master (Instructor)"
Ah, ok, I think I see what you're getting at.

If I take a class that teaches me how to drive, it will probably not teach "turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." It will teach me, rather, how to drive a car.

The problem with your Tang Soo Do is that it actually *does* have, apparently, a moral code. And that moral code is anti-Christian. In my opinion, one should not be encouraged to turn to Martial arts for a moral guide in life. One should turn to the Word and Wisdom of God, Jesus Christ. Martial arts are a tool, an amoral tool. Bizaare morality and spirituality need not be involved.

In my experience in the Chinese Martial Arts and Muay Thai, the only moral code that was present was mutual respect. The rest was left up to the students.

But if Muay Thai only taugh mutual respect as a moral code, why not just hand the students a Bible?  The rest would be pointless.  I mean I know what you are saying, yes if somebody did a home invasion, I would defend, but IMO, a perfect Christian would be non-resistant as Jesus was.  He could have dropped the entire world's population dead period the moment they came for him. He didn't resist though.
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« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2011, 09:13:30 PM »

Sparring I agree is not the same as violence.  I've taken Tang Soo Do for 3 years, it does have spirituality, meditation on focal points, and belief in "chi", inner energy, etc.  It teaches the mental game of intimidation, and builds "self confidence" for combat.

It does not teach "Turn the cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you".

Sparring, sure it's a workout, but the thread was about martial arts.

I remember some of the "tennants" said after each class.

"No retreat in Battle"
"In killing choose with sense and honor"
"Obedience to your Master (Instructor)"
Ah, ok, I think I see what you're getting at.

If I take a class that teaches me how to drive, it will probably not teach "turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you." It will teach me, rather, how to drive a car.

The problem with your Tang Soo Do is that it actually *does* have, apparently, a moral code. And that moral code is anti-Christian. In my opinion, one should not be encouraged to turn to Martial arts for a moral guide in life. One should turn to the Word and Wisdom of God, Jesus Christ. Martial arts are a tool, an amoral tool. Bizaare morality and spirituality need not be involved.

In my experience in the Chinese Martial Arts and Muay Thai, the only moral code that was present was mutual respect. The rest was left up to the students.

But if Muay Thai only taugh mutual respect as a moral code, why not just hand the students a Bible?  The rest would be pointless.  I mean I know what you are saying, yes if somebody did a home invasion, I would defend, but IMO, a perfect Christian would be non-resistant as Jesus was.  He could have dropped the entire world's population dead period the moment they came for him. He didn't resist though.
You're misunderstanding me. Muay Thai requires moral respect insofar as it permits a tolerable training environment. It did not purport to be a moral authority.

You're using this logic: Why teach people to fly airplanes? Why not just hand them the Bible?
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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2011, 09:15:59 PM »

Honestly, yes I do.  The massacre on them was horrendous.  They completely practiced non-resistance.  Even one little girl who was shot in that Anabaptist school, stood before the man who was going to shoot her and said "I will pray for you".  Then he shot her. Very true story.  The parents forgave the man who did this in a public statement.  

It's one of the traits that I ADMIRE about them so much.  I would have a VERY hard time practicing non-resistance.
And I admire the Desert Fathers who were beaten and robbed, and were then instructed by their Abbot to break their attacker out of prison. I am not insulting Anabaptist piety, I'm just refusing to whitewash their history.

Sorry, I'll just disagree.  It was a radical sect.  I've had the honor of learning in depth of these people, even attended their churches.  In fact I'm in a constant battle between Orthodoxy and Anabaptist (which is why I am here trying to figure stuff out).

But anyway, as far as martial arts, I just think that the point of it is self defense, learning to fight both mentally and "spiritually".   Mind - Body - Spirit.  I think this is not the pacifism, turning the cheek, praying for persecutors...

Hah, cool... I kind of forgot about that story of the prison break. Thanks for reminding me.   It's inspiring.
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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2011, 09:19:10 PM »

But anyway, as far as martial arts, I just think that the point of it is self defense, learning to fight both mentally and "spiritually".   Mind - Body - Spirit.  I think this is not the pacifism, turning the cheek, praying for persecutors...
That is one point. Other points include:

Dressing up in silk costumes or board shorts to feel cool
Building a healthy body
Reducing aggression by de-mystifying physical confrontation
Learning how to avoid confrontations
Building social bonds
The virtue of obedience
etc.

Sorry, I'll just disagree.  It was a radical sect.  I've had the honor of learning in depth of these people, even attended their churches.  In fact I'm in a constant battle between Orthodoxy and Anabaptist (which is why I am here trying to figure stuff out).
I'm curious, do you know what happens to an EO if they kill someone, even in self defense or war? They are excommunicated for at least one year and it is treated as a serious sin.
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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2011, 09:28:43 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need. 

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.
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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2011, 09:33:43 PM »

But anyway, as far as martial arts, I just think that the point of it is self defense, learning to fight both mentally and "spiritually".   Mind - Body - Spirit.  I think this is not the pacifism, turning the cheek, praying for persecutors...
That is one point. Other points include:

Dressing up in silk costumes or board shorts to feel cool
Building a healthy body
Reducing aggression by de-mystifying physical confrontation
Learning how to avoid confrontations
Building social bonds
The virtue of obedience
etc.

Sorry, I'll just disagree.  It was a radical sect.  I've had the honor of learning in depth of these people, even attended their churches.  In fact I'm in a constant battle between Orthodoxy and Anabaptist (which is why I am here trying to figure stuff out).
I'm curious, do you know what happens to an EO if they kill someone, even in self defense or war? They are excommunicated for at least one year and it is treated as a serious sin.

I've heard of the excommunication, but did not know it was for 1 year.

On what you were saying

Dressing up in the cool shorts (and yes they are COOL), the Bible or Christianity can't help you with.
Building a healthy body - Christianity may be able to help you with.  
Reducing aggression -Christianity can absolutely help you.
De mystifying physical aggression - We should not be physically aggressive as Christians.
Avoid Confrontations - Christianity can help you with this
Building social bonds - I've gotten some great PM's here, good people at church, and you my brother ++ ;o )  
Obedience - "Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven"

However, the shorts are probably the coolest shorts I've seen in my life.  

What I'm basically getting at is there is virtually nothing Martial Arts can give you that good in depth study and prayer can't provide.  Martial arts (if you leave out the spirituality that DOES exist in almost all of it I've seen) the lessons are merely elementary to what Christianity can give you.

Deep Christianity makes none of this stuff matter.
Check this, it's one my favs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF5qeVfdavY
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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2011, 09:36:11 PM »

De mystifying physical aggression - We should not be physically aggressive as Christians.
I meant that sparring allows one to see that physical confrontation is not a magical solution to one's problems.

Uh, I wasn't trying to argue that Martial Arts give you something that is lacking in Christianity. We who are in the world do have hobbies and practices that aren't necessary for our salvation or the salvation of the world, you know.  laugh But, hey, why go to the gym, when Mt. Athos monks have healthier bodies doing their daily labors and eating vegetarian?  Wink

http://books.google.com/books?id=9lvo4EmkTQsC&pg=PA63&dq=wisdom+of+the+desert+hunter&hl=en&ei=KAy-Tb3aA-e70QHYoYzRBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2011, 09:38:50 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need. 

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?
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« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2011, 09:40:17 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?
What if we encounter a non-Christian woman about to be murdered? What ought we to do, if being a human shield isn't a viable option?
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« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2011, 09:46:15 PM »

De mystifying physical aggression - We should not be physically aggressive as Christians.
I meant that sparring allows one to see that physical confrontation is not a magical solution to one's problems.

Uh, I wasn't trying to argue that Martial Arts give you something that is lacking in Christianity. We who are in the world do have hobbies and practices that aren't necessary for our salvation or the salvation of the world, you know.  laugh But, hey, why go to the gym, when Mt. Athos monks have healthier bodies doing their daily labors and eating vegetarian?  Wink

I agree with you & what you are saying.

The issue on some of this stuff is the "why" factor.  It's like you asked, "why go to the gym".  Why do we go to the gym?  Some for vanity, some for health, some for strength, some for physical rehab, some a mixture.

True health to the monks on Athos came from daily labor and eating the raw vegetation that God provided.  If you check out youtube on "raw food" you'll see slews of videos of insanely healthy people who got that way merely by eating the creation in its true form & uncooked.

It's been ingrained in many of us, including me, to take a health shake and pump iron.  Even the martial arts for defense.  

But it makes me wonder, if I just took what God made for me, would I be better off in health, in confrontation, etc.   If I didn't let the distractions of Martial arts, pumping iron, health drinks, high protein diets, etc etc etc get in the way, would I live to be 100+ like many of the Athos monks?

Anyway on Martial Arts, I just think it's "incompatible" with much of Christian teaching.  "Martial Arts" is a very BROAD term though, and there are many flavors.  I'm not sure about the more "plain physical ones" as I don't have experience.
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« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2011, 09:48:07 PM »

Anyway on Martial Arts, I just think it's "incompatible" with much of Christian teaching.  "Martial Arts" is a very BROAD term though, and there are many flavors.  I'm not sure about the more "plain physical ones" as I don't have experience.
I'm totally with you when it comes to distancing oneself from the pop-spirituality and "warrior spirit" material often thrown around martial arts circles.
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« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2011, 09:53:57 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?

I dont know..We are not monks. I think you would need to be one to simply take a beating. More complicated would be witnessing someone else taking a beating.. Women definitely need to know how to resist an attacker IMHO.

I think God would want my daughter to break the guy's nose and get away.... Just guessing of course   Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2011, 10:02:19 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?
What if we encounter a non-Christian woman about to be murdered? What ought we to do, if being a human shield isn't a viable option?

This is not the question for me.
This is something I pray about often.

What do you do in a situation like this?
Plead?
Pray?
Cry out to God?
Throw a distraction? (Jump in front and start singing Ricky Martin songs?)
Or get between them and plead, cry out to God, take the beating, stabbing, bullet for her and tell her to run?

But your question was hypothetical.  "What if".

Do we prepare for complete resistance on "what if's".  Do we dedicate that much time, effort, etc., preparing for an event that probably won't happen.

There's not a perfect answer for this.

"What if you were Chuck Norris and somebody had a gun and was about to murder somebody".  "You Texas Walker Ranger right up to them and get shot in the neck".   All that effort into fighting was just diminished.

"What if you were Chuck Norris and somebody had a knife and was about to murder somebody".  "You throw a hollywood style wheel kick and knock the knife in the air, proceed to beat the murderer."  Once the murderer is laid out "You heroically lift the lady off the ground".  THE END.

Or if Not THE END.

The murderer picks up the knife and stabs you in the back because you couldn't drop the lady you were holding.

What if's are what ifs.  Too many variables EXCEPT....

"What if you were very strong in the faith".

You could get between them and tell the murderer to please consider the love of God, his sacrifice, and if he's going to kill this woman it will be on his head.  Don't let him get to the woman and be between them.  Tell the woman to run if she can.

Let me put it this way, I'm not a perfect person and not the perfect person to tell you about non-resistance.

But I don't focus on hypothetical situations.  Martial arts does partially focus on these situations.  Imaginary fights, shadowboxing etc.
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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2011, 10:07:51 PM »

Bullshido... been a while since I heard that term... good site for info, though the guys there can be jerks (I fit right in!  Cheesy )... turning the other cheek ain't gonna protect the empire against the barbarians and invading armies... the Roman empire must live on!...

Question -

Jesus Christ told us to turn the cheek, love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute you.
I see many Eastern Orthodox Christians here ready for fight and warfare?

Isn't this a conflict of interest?

The very early Christians did not fight back.

This is why the Anabaptists seem to mirror this belief - Non resistance.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4

One of the many reasons I have Anabaptists listed in my faith.  They were massacred by protestants and Catholics alike and did not resist.
By all means I'm not attacking, but meekly nudging, being in the true church, isn't martial arts a conflict of interest?

This is me talking, so don't take this on behalf of the Church.  My thoughts are pretty simple.  If someone wants to convert my family or kill us over the Christian faith, I'd like to think I'd have the strength to stand and take the martyrdom.  Being killed for the faith is one thing.

But if someone wants to beat, rape or murder my daughter just because he's a sorry excuse for a human being and thinks he has the right to do that without regard to the Christian faith, that dude's about to get hurt.  Real bad.

I draw a line between self-defense in order to defend the faith and self-defense in order to protect the bodily integrity of my wife and kids from someone who just wants to harm others.  And as I said above, I'll walk away from a fight if possible, but when it comes to my family, I have a duty to protect them where they cannot protect themselves.  Martyrdom is one thing.  Just letting other people harm your family for no good reason is quite another, IMHO.  I tend to agree with Col. Jeff Cooper in this regard:

"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy." -- Col. Cooper
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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2011, 10:12:58 PM »

One thing you need to understand about someone properly trained in Karate is that they are far more likely to walk away from a fight then someone who isn't trained. When you get slammed around three or four times a week in training, the idea of fighting someone on the street has zero appeal.

When there is no other option, a properly trained person will be able to use the minimum amount of force rather than just lashing back out of control and hurt someone far more than necessary. Everyone gets faced with danger once in awhile. Keeping calm and staying in control is really what training will do for you "on the street" far more than knowing how to punch or kick someone.

The really advanced teachers I have known were all very humble.



It's besides the point.  Christianity is about Non-resistance.  Karate is not needed for non resistance.  Turning the other cheek, forgiving, and praying for those who persecute you is all you need.  

I doubt it... Dangerous situations come upon people in an instant. You react based on instinct and training if you have any. If you dont know how to handle yourself you will most likely make the situation worse, get hurt worse and maybe hurt someone else far worse than if you are ready.

Sitting back and taking it, while commendable, is nearly impossible in reality, especially if you are untrained.

Plus there are many different kinds of situations. i would want my daughter to know how to defend herself if someone tries to rape her.

Having the time to decide you will turn the other cheek before being led into the Arena to be fed to lions is different than when someone jumps you without warning.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I agree with you, it's nearly impossible.

The question then exists, if we are focused on Jesus Christ, his persecution, his forgiveness, and his example often enough, would that be enough to practice non-resistance.

Or is putting our focus into martial arts ready to defend ourselves a better focus?

I guess I'm asking not what is "more practical", but "what is Christian" and "what would God want us to do"?

I dont know..We are not monks. I think you would need to be one to simply take a beating. More complicated would be witnessing someone else taking a beating.. Women definitely need to know how to resist an attacker IMHO.

I think God would want my daughter to break the guy's nose and get away.... Just guessing of course   Smiley

I always thought it was interesting how Jesus asked Peter if "he had a sword", then when Peter used it, Jesus stopped him.

The Bible is vague on some of these issues other than Jesus talking about a thief breaking in a home...

If a home invasion happened at my home they would become swiss cheese or I would.  
Is this my weakness/lack of strength or is this strength and virtue?
Is this trusting in God or myself?

Would have Jesus or a disciple taken a spear to defend his home, or let the murderers go on their rampage while we ask for God to protect us and know his will - will be done?

The adulterous woman was about to be murdered.  Jesus diffused the situation in a VERY cool manner.


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« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2011, 10:22:11 PM »

Bullshido... been a while since I heard that term... good site for info, though the guys there can be jerks (I fit right in!  Cheesy )... turning the other cheek ain't gonna protect the empire against the barbarians and invading armies... the Roman empire must live on!...

Question -

Jesus Christ told us to turn the cheek, love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute you.
I see many Eastern Orthodox Christians here ready for fight and warfare?

Isn't this a conflict of interest?

The very early Christians did not fight back.

This is why the Anabaptists seem to mirror this belief - Non resistance.   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN6nJV_mxU4

One of the many reasons I have Anabaptists listed in my faith.  They were massacred by protestants and Catholics alike and did not resist.
By all means I'm not attacking, but meekly nudging, being in the true church, isn't martial arts a conflict of interest?

This is me talking, so don't take this on behalf of the Church.  My thoughts are pretty simple.  If someone wants to convert my family or kill us over the Christian faith, I'd like to think I'd have the strength to stand and take the martyrdom.  Being killed for the faith is one thing.

But if someone wants to beat, rape or murder my daughter just because he's a sorry excuse for a human being and thinks he has the right to do that without regard to the Christian faith, that dude's about to get hurt.  Real bad.

I draw a line between self-defense in order to defend the faith and self-defense in order to protect the bodily integrity of my wife and kids from someone who just wants to harm others.  And as I said above, I'll walk away from a fight if possible, but when it comes to my family, I have a duty to protect them where they cannot protect themselves.  Martyrdom is one thing.  Just letting other people harm your family for no good reason is quite another, IMHO.  I tend to agree with Col. Jeff Cooper in this regard:

"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy." -- Col. Cooper

If somebody wanted to kill me or my family over the Christian faith, I fear I am weak, and I would kill them first.  If they asked me to deny the faith in a helpless situation, I would love to think I'd take the Martyrdom.  If they asked me to deny the faith or kill my wife or child in a helpless situation, I don't think I would have the strength.  I'm just being honest. 

If somebody wanted to hurt / rape etc., my family, I would kill them.

The issue is, is this right?  I'm trying to search out my weaknesses if possible.

Martial Arts is a lifestyle that pushes a "focus" on fighting, defense, physical confrontation, and in many cases spiritual.
A pure focus on God, his will, his way of forgiveness, etc., is the right way.

Does that mean if somebody is raping your spouse you stand there and watch?  I doubt it.
Does that mean you can stop it?  I'd like to think so.
Does that mean that you stop it by shoving a knife in the rapists back?  I doubt it.
Does that mean that you can jump on the man, pull him off, get in the way, say prayers out vocally?  Probably.

I'm not sure and it's unclear.  But I truly feel the focus of Martial arts is not the way Jesus Christ implied forgiveness, praying for persecutors, and turning the cheek.
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« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2011, 10:40:56 PM »

Martial Arts is a lifestyle that pushes a "focus" on fighting, defense, physical confrontation, and in many cases spiritual.
A pure focus on God, his will, his way of forgiveness, etc., is the right way.

I was indeed joking earlier in the thread. Smiley But a few things about the above... first, one thing I find difficult about Taoism is it's pacifism. It is not absolutely pacifist (e.g. somewhere in the Tao Te Ching the author begrudgingly says that sometimes you have to go to war as a last resort). The problem is that, if you followed the pacifist lifestyle to the extent that that book promotes, and a war did come upon you, you wouldn't be prepared to defend yourself properly.* I don't think martial arts have to be about real fighting or physical confrontation, but they can teach you how to handle yourself on the off chance that you do find yourself in need of such skills (and by handle yourself I don't just mean physically, but also psychologically). Jesus told the disciple (Peter was it?) not to use his sword when they arrested Jesus, and Jesus healed the man's ear that had been injured... but it's telling that the disciple was carrying around a sword at all.


*I realise that there's diversity in Taoism, and Taoists practice martial arts, I'm thinking mainly of the works attributed to Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu here.
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« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2011, 11:04:35 PM »

Martial Arts is a lifestyle that pushes a "focus" on fighting, defense, physical confrontation, and in many cases spiritual.
A pure focus on God, his will, his way of forgiveness, etc., is the right way.

I was indeed joking earlier in the thread. Smiley But a few things about the above... first, one thing I find difficult about Taoism is it's pacifism. It is not absolutely pacifist (e.g. somewhere in the Tao Te Ching the author begrudgingly says that sometimes you have to go to war as a last resort). The problem is that, if you followed the pacifist lifestyle to the extent that that book promotes, and a war did come upon you, you wouldn't be prepared to defend yourself properly.* I don't think martial arts have to be about real fighting or physical confrontation, but they can teach you how to handle yourself on the off chance that you do find yourself in need of such skills (and by handle yourself I don't just mean physically, but also psychologically). Jesus told the disciple (Peter was it?) not to use his sword when they arrested Jesus, and Jesus healed the man's ear that had been injured... but it's telling that the disciple was carrying around a sword at all.


*I realise that there's diversity in Taoism, and Taoists practice martial arts, I'm thinking mainly of the works attributed to Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu here.
The Tao Te Ching also says to "keep weapons and armor, but do not employ them" I.E. train a military/militia for the purpose of deterring attack by virtue of its existence alone, rather than encouraging actual combat.
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« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2011, 12:10:20 AM »

"Martial arts" would also include being a member of any of the armed services depending on how the phrase is defined, would it not? I have black belts in aikijujitsu (the precursor of aikido and jujitsu), kajukenbo, and had done kickboxing and several other arts for many years before that. As to conflicts with Orthodoxy, I would say that depends. One might also broaden the discussion to include topics raised e.g. in relation to the likes of http://ancientfaith.com/specials/christ_the_eternal_tao

One thing attractive about aikijujitsu and similar arts is how many of the more "brutal" techniques allow a choice to move or put down one's opponent employing joint locks, controlled throws, etc. rather than permanently injuring or killing -a principle obviously very important to maximize in various branches of law enforcement. Aikido, as the "martial art of love" takes this principle even further. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79PMWGtl0qM&feature=player_embedded
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« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2011, 12:44:40 AM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.
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« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2011, 12:56:54 AM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.
The second principle would argue for studying martial arts in more depth. The first principle is false -physical strength does not necessarily tell especially in the arts I'm proficient in. I'm about 205 lbs and very fit, but have thrown a 350 pound partner overhead. We have trained some very slight women who have become genuine forces of nature. No matter how strong/bulky you are I can probably make you want to cry if I get proper hold of your fingers, wrist, shoulder, ankle, knee, neck, head, elbow etc. ;-) As Archimedes said, "give me a lever and I can move the world," and the body has many, being in truth as fragile as the wings of a butterfly. This is not to say that martial arts make one superhuman or that luck (or grace) is not a factor, but they *can* teach you to put someone down safely and effectively without killing or injuring in very many situations, absolutely. Most people suppose they must kill or injure in every dangerous situation because they do not know how to do anything else. That said, it must be admitted you probably can't be sure you're not going to have to do some damage in certain situations even if you're able to deal with many without doing so, and yes, moral issues are always in play.
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« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2011, 06:44:51 AM »

If somebody wanted to kill me or my family over the Christian faith, I fear I am weak, and I would kill them first.  If they asked me to deny the faith in a helpless situation, I would love to think I'd take the Martyrdom.  If they asked me to deny the faith or kill my wife or child in a helpless situation, I don't think I would have the strength.  I'm just being honest. 

If somebody wanted to hurt / rape etc., my family, I would kill them.

The issue is, is this right?  I'm trying to search out my weaknesses if possible.

Martial Arts is a lifestyle that pushes a "focus" on fighting, defense, physical confrontation, and in many cases spiritual.
A pure focus on God, his will, his way of forgiveness, etc., is the right way.

As another pointed out, though, we are not monastics.  We live in the world and we interact with it.  There is no avoiding conflict -- the question is how to manage it.  And as has already been stated, the martial arts do not necessarily "push" a "focus on fighting....or.....physical confrontation."  I agree with you that those with too strong a spiritual element are to be avoided, but realistically, I think that's true without regarding to Christianity.  The ones focused on the "spiritual" are also the least effective in my experience.

Quote
Does that mean if somebody is raping your spouse you stand there and watch?  I doubt it.
Does that mean you can stop it?  I'd like to think so.
Does that mean that you stop it by shoving a knife in the rapists back?  I doubt it.
Does that mean that you can jump on the man, pull him off, get in the way, say prayers out vocally?  Probably.

I'm not sure and it's unclear.  But I truly feel the focus of Martial arts is not the way Jesus Christ implied forgiveness, praying for persecutors, and turning the cheek.

First, no one is condoning vigilante murder.  If I see someone raping my spouse, I intend to use that level of force necessary to stop the attack.  My preference would be to stop the attack without loss of life so the attacker can face justice, but if he has a gun, etc., you do what you have to do to stop the attack.  The force continuum comes into play in any self-defense or defense-of-another situation.  Second, you seem to be ignoring the fact that SOMEONE has to do it.  What are your thoughts on police forces?  Are they allowed to use force to stop crime?  If it is morally okay for you to rely on someone else to do your fighting/killing for you, why is it not morally acceptable for you to do it yourself?  We wouldn't apply this reasoning to other supposed sins would we?  Is it okay if I hire a thief to steal my neighbor's belongings since I didn't do the act myself?
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« Reply #75 on: May 02, 2011, 06:49:46 AM »

Totally avoiding anything with a "spiritual" component can get pretty difficult. I mean, while not making any claims about God, modern psychology treads on spiritual territory a fair bit. As always, the key appears to be discernment.
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« Reply #76 on: May 02, 2011, 10:33:43 AM »

The first principle is false -physical strength does not necessarily tell especially in the arts I'm proficient in. I'm about 205 lbs and very fit, but have thrown a 350 pound partner overhead. We have trained some very slight women who have become genuine forces of nature. No matter how strong/bulky you are I can probably make you want to cry if I get proper hold of your fingers, wrist, shoulder, ankle, knee, neck, head, elbow etc. ;-) As Archimedes said, "give me a lever and I can move the world," and the body has many, being in truth as fragile as the wings of a butterfly.
I was referring to a full-contact fight, not exercise drills, though.
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« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2011, 10:53:05 AM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.

I agree that is often the case but not always.

My son was a black belt by 9th grade ( he is 22 now and has his second degree Belt). Some kids who were from a rough crowd surrounded him and challenged him, not knowing he was trained. The lead tough guy pushed him, to which my son told him it would be a mistake to fight him. They laughed. He kept saying it would be a mistake. Finally, the next time the bully put his hand on him my son twisted his wrist and took him to the ground...easily. Anyone here with any training knows the move, it's very fundamental.  They then had a little discussion and all was well.

I learned of this while eating with my son at the Mall Eatery. These really rough looking kids came up to the table and high fived him "Hi Nick" Hey ..how you doing etc. Smiles all around.   I asked.....ummmmm whose that? Oh that's Jonathan from school. They are all my buddies now and he told me the story.
 
Men are very very very pecking order sensitive. You will be challenged to determine where you fit into the hierarchy.. And Yes, men are like animals. I went to a very lower middle class Jr. High and had to fight my way up the order to the top guy Michael C. I didnt weight 100 lbs. But when my turn came to fight him, he just toyed with me and allowed me to live Smiley. I then was accepted just because I was willing to fight. A life of being stuffed into gym lockers and having my lunch taken every day was something I wished to avoid.

 I learned Karate later in life remembering how that was.
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« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2011, 03:28:57 PM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.

I agree that is often the case but not always.

My son was a black belt by 9th grade ( he is 22 now and has his second degree Belt). Some kids who were from a rough crowd surrounded him and challenged him, not knowing he was trained. The lead tough guy pushed him, to which my son told him it would be a mistake to fight him. They laughed. He kept saying it would be a mistake. Finally, the next time the bully put his hand on him my son twisted his wrist and took him to the ground...easily. Anyone here with any training knows the move, it's very fundamental.  They then had a little discussion and all was well.

I learned of this while eating with my son at the Mall Eatery. These really rough looking kids came up to the table and high fived him "Hi Nick" Hey ..how you doing etc. Smiles all around.   I asked.....ummmmm whose that? Oh that's Jonathan from school. They are all my buddies now and he told me the story.
 
Men are very very very pecking order sensitive. You will be challenged to determine where you fit into the hierarchy.. And Yes, men are like animals. I went to a very lower middle class Jr. High and had to fight my way up the order to the top guy Michael C. I didnt weight 100 lbs. But when my turn came to fight him, he just toyed with me and allowed me to live Smiley. I then was accepted just because I was willing to fight. A life of being stuffed into gym lockers and having my lunch taken every day was something I wished to avoid.

 I learned Karate later in life remembering how that was.

In no way am I trying to personally attack you in what I am saying so please forgive if I offend.

But this is exactly what I am talking about.

Jesus our Lord told us to turn the other cheek. 
Martial arts taught your son to twist his wrist to the ground.

Which advice do you think your son should know?
Which one makes our son "truly" stronger?

Do you want him to achieve victory in his soul, or in the world?

I know how hard it is.  Believe me I face the same issues.  My thoughts would be to FIGHT, and teach my son to fight.  But is it right?
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« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2011, 06:09:50 PM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.

I agree that is often the case but not always.

My son was a black belt by 9th grade ( he is 22 now and has his second degree Belt). Some kids who were from a rough crowd surrounded him and challenged him, not knowing he was trained. The lead tough guy pushed him, to which my son told him it would be a mistake to fight him. They laughed. He kept saying it would be a mistake. Finally, the next time the bully put his hand on him my son twisted his wrist and took him to the ground...easily. Anyone here with any training knows the move, it's very fundamental.  They then had a little discussion and all was well.

I learned of this while eating with my son at the Mall Eatery. These really rough looking kids came up to the table and high fived him "Hi Nick" Hey ..how you doing etc. Smiles all around.   I asked.....ummmmm whose that? Oh that's Jonathan from school. They are all my buddies now and he told me the story.
 
Men are very very very pecking order sensitive. You will be challenged to determine where you fit into the hierarchy.. And Yes, men are like animals. I went to a very lower middle class Jr. High and had to fight my way up the order to the top guy Michael C. I didnt weight 100 lbs. But when my turn came to fight him, he just toyed with me and allowed me to live Smiley. I then was accepted just because I was willing to fight. A life of being stuffed into gym lockers and having my lunch taken every day was something I wished to avoid.

 I learned Karate later in life remembering how that was.

In no way am I trying to personally attack you in what I am saying so please forgive if I offend.

But this is exactly what I am talking about.

Jesus our Lord told us to turn the other cheek. 
Martial arts taught your son to twist his wrist to the ground.

Which advice do you think your son should know?
Which one makes our son "truly" stronger?

Do you want him to achieve victory in his soul, or in the world?

I know how hard it is.  Believe me I face the same issues.  My thoughts would be to FIGHT, and teach my son to fight.  But is it right?

I think the ability to use minimum force because you are well trained is fitting and proper. Allowing someone to beat you to a pulp is not really turning the other cheek. I think you may have miss understood this saying.

How much more violent is a beating? How much more damaged would the attacker be spiritually if he were allowed to hurt someone badly? No, it's far better to use just enough force to end a situation and then make peace. The untrained person will tend to flail and lash out.

When I took Karate it was well known that you had to really watch out for the newbies who were far more likely to hurt you with a mistake then a person who was trained...

It's a question of control and having discipline, which has a far better chance of a peaceful resolution then an adrenaline pumping free for all.   
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« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2011, 06:14:16 PM »

Problem is you can't really disable someone without harming them unless three conditions are met:

You are stronger than them.
You are vastly more skilled.
You are lucky.

As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched."

Let's not pretend that studying the martial arts will allow you to be magical. You're gonna hurt someone and/or get hurt if you decide to get in a fight. The moral argument occurs at that point.

I agree that is often the case but not always.

My son was a black belt by 9th grade ( he is 22 now and has his second degree Belt). Some kids who were from a rough crowd surrounded him and challenged him, not knowing he was trained. The lead tough guy pushed him, to which my son told him it would be a mistake to fight him. They laughed. He kept saying it would be a mistake. Finally, the next time the bully put his hand on him my son twisted his wrist and took him to the ground...easily. Anyone here with any training knows the move, it's very fundamental.  They then had a little discussion and all was well.

I learned of this while eating with my son at the Mall Eatery. These really rough looking kids came up to the table and high fived him "Hi Nick" Hey ..how you doing etc. Smiles all around.   I asked.....ummmmm whose that? Oh that's Jonathan from school. They are all my buddies now and he told me the story.
 
Men are very very very pecking order sensitive. You will be challenged to determine where you fit into the hierarchy.. And Yes, men are like animals. I went to a very lower middle class Jr. High and had to fight my way up the order to the top guy Michael C. I didnt weight 100 lbs. But when my turn came to fight him, he just toyed with me and allowed me to live Smiley. I then was accepted just because I was willing to fight. A life of being stuffed into gym lockers and having my lunch taken every day was something I wished to avoid.

 I learned Karate later in life remembering how that was.

In no way am I trying to personally attack you in what I am saying so please forgive if I offend.

But this is exactly what I am talking about.

Jesus our Lord told us to turn the other cheek.  
Martial arts taught your son to twist his wrist to the ground.

Which advice do you think your son should know?
Which one makes our son "truly" stronger?

Do you want him to achieve victory in his soul, or in the world?

I know how hard it is.  Believe me I face the same issues.  My thoughts would be to FIGHT, and teach my son to fight.  But is it right?

And yes by all means teach your son some form of karate. He is far less likely to ever be in a fight and will know how to walk away or end things with a minimum of violence.

And if you have a daughter, you should definitely teach her how to defend herself from attack.
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« Reply #81 on: May 02, 2011, 06:23:05 PM »

Allowing someone to beat you to a pulp is not really turning the other cheek. I think you may have miss understood this saying.

What is your understanding of the saying?  I've struggled a bit with this myself, being a not-so hypothetical issue for me, and I find some of the Fundie arguments very lacking. 

I'm not trying to argue, just point out that Christ and His martyrs allowed themselves to be physically abused to the point of torture and death?  Perhaps there is a distinction between doing that for religious beliefs.  Or, is that a way in which we justify self-defense and violence?
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« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2011, 07:03:19 PM »

Allowing someone to beat you to a pulp is not really turning the other cheek. I think you may have miss understood this saying.

What is your understanding of the saying?  I've struggled a bit with this myself, being a not-so hypothetical issue for me, and I find some of the Fundie arguments very lacking. 

I'm not trying to argue, just point out that Christ and His martyrs allowed themselves to be physically abused to the point of torture and death?  Perhaps there is a distinction between doing that for religious beliefs.  Or, is that a way in which we justify self-defense and violence?

i would appreciate some discussion as well.

My point is that things are rarely clear cut like being arrested for your faith and then being sent to the Gulag or Arena.

Saints have indeed allowed themselves to be robbed and beaten. I think the rest of us would try to defend ourselves and do a very poor job of it hurting people or getting hurt far more than necessary.

Turning the other cheek does not include allowing a young woman to be sexually assaulted. Any religion that teaches a young woman to sit back and take it rather than mount a defense is missing something IMHO.

I think turning the other cheek may be more about not being goaded. There are just wars and there is also justifiable self defense.
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« Reply #83 on: May 02, 2011, 11:25:25 PM »

lotsa lulz here. Tried to avoid this thread.

Black belt? As a teen-ager in any school that will give a teen a black belt is going to get you in trouble with the most middling of a high school wrestler or a kid with maybe 3 months of decent boxing lessons or even your average kid with more than one brother.

Really, until you list the number of real, "live" altercations you have been in and the weapons involved, all is just idle speculation.

Best defense: avoid.
Next: run.
Next: comply.
Next: grow up in a world where violence is part and parcel of life.

The last is best choice really. And the saddest.

Nice resume xariskai. A brilliant guy who actually pursues a well regarded and possibly viable live martial art. Much respect.

For most folks in America. Get your kid on the wrestling team. Role-playing antiquated and mannered "martial" arts with non-athletes is pointless. And get them a few months of boxing lessons at a REAL local boxing gym now and then.

And teach how to use a firearm and practice a lot.

Or just realize the chance of being injured in America if you don't live in a crime trap is almost nil. And spending all that time and energy on probably ineffectively defending yourself against someone who has you by surprise and lives off violence ain't worth and that effort and anxiety.

Wrestling is still grand. The sport of Kings. Boxing lessons are great, but participating in the sport live probably ain't worth the head trauma over the long haul.
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« Reply #84 on: May 02, 2011, 11:27:37 PM »

As far as turning the other cheek goes outside of Christian piety. No better lesson to learn than how to take a beating and get back up with dignity, than to give one with pride.

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« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2011, 12:47:57 AM »

For most folks in America. Get your kid on the wrestling team. Role-playing antiquated and mannered "martial" arts with non-athletes is pointless. And get them a few months of boxing lessons at a REAL local boxing gym now and then.
Amen. Plus, the more alive they train, the less pop-spirituality/morality you're likely to get.
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« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2011, 08:23:58 AM »

lotsa lulz here. Tried to avoid this thread.

Black belt? As a teen-ager in any school that will give a teen a black belt is going to get you in trouble with the most middling of a high school wrestler or a kid with maybe 3 months of decent boxing lessons or even your average kid with more than one brother.

Really, until you list the number of real, "live" altercations you have been in and the weapons involved, all is just idle speculation.

Best defense: avoid.
Next: run.
Next: comply.
Next: grow up in a world where violence is part and parcel of life.

The last is best choice really. And the saddest.

Nice resume xariskai. A brilliant guy who actually pursues a well regarded and possibly viable live martial art. Much respect.

For most folks in America. Get your kid on the wrestling team. Role-playing antiquated and mannered "martial" arts with non-athletes is pointless. And get them a few months of boxing lessons at a REAL local boxing gym now and then.

And teach how to use a firearm and practice a lot.

Or just realize the chance of being injured in America if you don't live in a crime trap is almost nil. And spending all that time and energy on probably ineffectively defending yourself against someone who has you by surprise and lives off violence ain't worth and that effort and anxiety.

Wrestling is still grand. The sport of Kings. Boxing lessons are great, but participating in the sport live probably ain't worth the head trauma over the long haul.


I sounds to me like you dont have any real knowledge of what teens are taught when they take Karate..
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« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2011, 11:18:31 AM »

lotsa lulz here. Tried to avoid this thread.

Black belt? As a teen-ager in any school that will give a teen a black belt is going to get you in trouble with the most middling of a high school wrestler or a kid with maybe 3 months of decent boxing lessons or even your average kid with more than one brother.

Really, until you list the number of real, "live" altercations you have been in and the weapons involved, all is just idle speculation.

Best defense: avoid.
Next: run.
Next: comply.
Next: grow up in a world where violence is part and parcel of life.

The last is best choice really. And the saddest.

Nice resume xariskai. A brilliant guy who actually pursues a well regarded and possibly viable live martial art. Much respect.

For most folks in America. Get your kid on the wrestling team. Role-playing antiquated and mannered "martial" arts with non-athletes is pointless. And get them a few months of boxing lessons at a REAL local boxing gym now and then.

And teach how to use a firearm and practice a lot.

Or just realize the chance of being injured in America if you don't live in a crime trap is almost nil. And spending all that time and energy on probably ineffectively defending yourself against someone who has you by surprise and lives off violence ain't worth and that effort and anxiety.

Wrestling is still grand. The sport of Kings. Boxing lessons are great, but participating in the sport live probably ain't worth the head trauma over the long haul.


I sounds to me like you dont have any real knowledge of what teens are taught when they take Karate..
I think Orthonorm was referring to proficiency in street fights that have actually commenced, not the tactics one learns in Karate to avoid a fight. Those tactics are indeed very useful.

We already fight over a lot of stuff on these forums, perhaps we can leave martial arts debates to other forums for the sake of peace Tongue

What Karate style did your son study?
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« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2011, 11:25:47 AM »

Here is a little bit about what teens and young kids are taught in my experience ( different styles and different teachers may vary).

My son started when he was six years old. He had some advantage because I had taken Karate since College so I knew what I wanted for him. I looked for a dojo (studio) that had a good kids program and didnt emphasize going to tournaments. I also didnt want him taking Tai Kwan Do as I had for reasons I wont go into. I preferred a Japanese style.

Karate especially for kids, is not about "fighting" or Karate guys can or cant beat boxers or wrestlers. It is about self disciple. This involves learning how to focus, take direction, shut up, and gradually learn how to make your body do what your mind tells it to do.

It also involves bringing into your child's life another parent figure, someone he or she can turn to and someone who will know your kids strengths and weaknesses very very well. It also teaches them to push through pain and exhaustion and not to be silly little Gilly infants anymore. It helps them grow up

I cant think of a single other thing in my son's life that has benefited him more. Any parent who is involved will tell you how much Karate has helped with school and behavior.

I also had a question about how a 15 or 16 year old could really be a Blackbelt. I had begun my training late as an adult and never had contact with kids taking karate.

The answer is that when you start at age six  or seven you have about nine or ten years of training once you get to your mid-teens.
Multiply that by two or three lessons each and every week and you have someone who can pass a Black Belt test.

Being a Black Belt does not mean you can beat every person you spar with. The laws of physics still apply. Little guy vs Big or even HUGE guy still counts. But our Teacher waits until the kids grow into an adult body before he will test them. Age 15 or so usually will do.

A lot of what you are tested on is something called Kata ( Forms) which are a sort of shadow boxing dance. Each Belt has a certain number of forms you must master. The advanced Kata are very complicated and often beautiful to watch. You must have control of your body to do advanced Katas.  

You also have had to do a bit of instruction yourself in the Dojo of newbies. Leadership and strong command count.

And yes, you have to spar with the entire Dojo as part of your test, all of the other students, one at a time. That means holding your own not "winning" each time . It means standing firm against guys three times as big as you and doing well against them, holding your form and balance and courage. It means pushing through to the end. You fight the Teacher last ( 9th degree black belt).

I have seen many many Black Belt tests. At the end, I have not seen a teen get the Belt who didnt deserve it. I have seen many teens and adults fail their test too. it is not automatic by any means.

I hope this has helped.

Marc
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« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2011, 11:37:36 AM »

Karate especially for kids, is not about "fighting" or Karate guys can or cant beat boxers or wrestlers. It is about self disciple. This involves learning how to focus, take direction, shut up, and gradually learn how to make your body do what your mind tells it to do.

It also involves bringing into your child's life another parent figure, someone he or she can turn to and someone who will know your kids strengths and weaknesses very very well. It also teaches them to push through pain and exhaustion and not to be silly little Gilly infants anymore. It helps them grow up

I cant think of a single other thing in my son's life that has benefited him more. Any parent who is involved will tell you how much Karate has helped with school and behavior.
Very cool. Sounds like it has a positive effect.
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« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2011, 01:55:38 PM »

Or just realize the chance of being injured in America if you don't live in a crime trap is almost nil. And spending all that time and energy on probably ineffectively defending yourself against someone who has you by surprise and lives off violence ain't worth and that effort and anxiety.

This is a fantastic statement -- lots of good stuff in these two sentences.

I realized some time back that the physical and fitness benefits I received from martial arts training far outweighed the benefits to my personal safety and bodily integrity, for exactly the reason you mention.  I am trained in both fighting arts and defensive use of a pistol, but at some point I looked in the mirror and at around 215 pounds I realized my health was far more in danger from heart disease, diabetes and related illness than from being attacked by someone.  While I still see value in knowing basic self-defense, I also see greater value in just being fit and being in good health.

And even in the extremely unlikely event I do have to fight someone, I'll be in much better shape to weather that storm.  One thing I learned rather quickly in jiu jitsu is someone who was in really good shape and was strong was always a handful for someone (me) who was for a good period of time overweight and not strong.
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« Reply #91 on: May 03, 2011, 08:11:59 PM »

Good old Col. Cooper.  I was thinking of him today as I was loading some ammunition for my 10mm Glock.  Quite a cartridge.  I still do not trust it enough to replace the .45 ACP as my every day carry weapon (Glock 21SF, 230gr Hornady TAP +P).  Col. Cooper may not have liked the pistol, but the cartridge was near gospel to him.


I draw a line between self-defense in order to defend the faith and self-defense in order to protect the bodily integrity of my wife and kids from someone who just wants to harm others.  And as I said above, I'll walk away from a fight if possible, but when it comes to my family, I have a duty to protect them where they cannot protect themselves.  Martyrdom is one thing.  Just letting other people harm your family for no good reason is quite another, IMHO.  I tend to agree with Col. Jeff Cooper in this regard:

"One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy." -- Col. Cooper
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« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2011, 08:40:00 PM »

I personally and professionally have always been on the side of self-defense, but I'm not sure Col. Cooper is the best source of Orthodox Christian guidance when it comes to violence.

We 're entitled to our opinions, but I'm just wondering how Christian they may be, and how much sophistry we use to make them fit. 
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« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2011, 09:30:13 PM »

I personally and professionally have always been on the side of self-defense, but I'm not sure Col. Cooper is the best source of Orthodox Christian guidance when it comes to violence.

We 're entitled to our opinions, but I'm just wondering how Christian they may be, and how much sophistry we use to make them fit.  

Having actually read most of Jeff Cooper's works, I have found nothing contained therein that contradicts any parts of my Faith.  Cooper is not a theologian, and he does not pretend to be one.  However, his writings are almost a "must read" for anyone who has already come to the conclusion that deadly force is sometimes warranted, and who chooses to carry a weapon for self defense.  As I read the Scriptures, all of them, not just the ones that I like, I find far more reason to use sophistry to justify pacifism than I do to find reason to arm myself in defense of my person and my family.  However, once that conclusion has been reached (and I admit not all will come to that conclusion), the Scriptures tend not to be the best references regarding the practical matter of tactics and pistolcraft.  For dogma in this area, I find Cooper, Jordan, Keith (although I do not approve of his Masonic affiliation), Fairbaine and Applegate to be good “Fathers” of the craft.  I apply the principles of Scripture to my life in order to live among people in a manner where harming another person would be a rare occurrence, and I arm myself for deterrence and not with the hope of an eventual confrontation.  However, living such a life is a matter of faith and hope, both of which I do not have in abundance.  This makes me often less than certain of what God wills.  However, I have knowledge of what happens when a 230 grain hollow point does when it hits a person on the bridge of his nose, and I have the skill developed over time to place one there if needed, so if I find myself in the unfortunate situation to where my faith and hope have failed me, I have some confidence in my knowledge and skill.  For this, I owe no small debt to the late Col. Jeff Cooper, of blessed memory.
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« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2011, 09:53:53 PM »

^ I appreciate your perspective and, as mentioned, I have been in a similar camp since my early adulthood.  Still, my concern is not with Col. Cooper's writings (or anyone else who writes on the subject).  This thread was intended to discuss martial arts/self-defense in relation with Orthodox Christianity, and I don't find his opinions particularly relevant to that specific subject (I could be wrong).

Again, I will defer to your knowledge on the Holy Scriptures, but not necessarily your take from them.  Just because you are personally comfortable with violence/self-defense and Orthodox Christianity, does not mean that the Church is.

My point: Perhaps it would be more persuasive if posters provided quotes from Church Fathers, Elders, leaders, etc., rather than citing self-defense/firearms instructors. 

[I'm not trying to be "snarky" but I'm not sure how to make the internet show that]

 
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« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2011, 09:56:15 PM »

There's room for point shooting, modified Weaver (Cooper), and isosceles.

Different circumstances, different uses.

I would pass on Cooper's "system" and "philosophy", for practicing all three of the above.

Frankly, in most surprise situations you'll probably end up point shooting. And seems the easiest IME to get people up and going on.

LEOs and Military have of course reasons for the other two methods and their invariable hybrids.

In home defense, safe room with a shotgun and a 911 call.

Of course as many words can be spilled over this as the filioque. But whatever route you go, it's always in the practice.
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« Reply #96 on: May 03, 2011, 09:57:52 PM »

^ I appreciate your perspective and, as mentioned, I have been in a similar camp since my early adulthood.  Still, my concern is not with Col. Cooper's writings (or anyone else who writes on the subject).  This thread was intended to discuss martial arts/self-defense in relation with Orthodox Christianity, and I don't find his opinions particularly relevant to that specific subject (I could be wrong).

Again, I will defer to your knowledge on the Holy Scriptures, but not necessarily your take from them.  Just because you are personally comfortable with violence/self-defense and Orthodox Christianity, does not mean that the Church is.

My point: Perhaps it would be more persuasive if posters provided quotes from Church Fathers, Elders, leaders, etc., rather than citing self-defense/firearms instructors. 

[I'm not trying to be "snarky" but I'm not sure how to make the internet show that]

 

You are not coming off snarky at all. And really people need to get over that assumption in general on the internet and give the benefit of the doubt.

You point is well taken, but once a thread starts, who knows where it will go.
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« Reply #97 on: May 03, 2011, 10:02:52 PM »

Punch,

How do you carry?
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« Reply #98 on: May 03, 2011, 10:12:08 PM »

You are not coming off snarky at all. And really people need to get over that assumption in general on the internet and give the benefit of the doubt.
You point is well taken, but once a thread starts, who knows where it will go.

Good, and agreed on all points.
[Edit: I also agree with your point from an earlier post that many people spend an inordinate amount of time "preparing" for these situations.  There is a line between being proficient/prepared and being obsessed.  I'm not implying anyone from this thread has crossed that line, but there is plenty of $ to be made and time to be wasted on becoming the ultimate tactical... whatever.]

Figured I might as well answer the below for good measure:
Quote
Punch, Cognomen
How do you carry?
Deep concealed? Minotaur IWB at roughly 4:30.
Not (professional or otherwise)? Primary sidearm in a Blackhawk Paddle at 3:00-3:30.
All on a proper gun belt, usually extra mag(s) on opposite side or in ankle holster.
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« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2011, 01:00:05 AM »

Punch,

How do you carry?

Glock 21SF at 4:00 in a Galco Summer Comfort IWB.  Depending on the situation, I usually have either a S&W Model 438 in my left coat or pants pocket.  Recently, thanks to my youngest son, I have been carrying a Glock 30SF at 10:00 in a Kydex IWB as a backup.  I may eventually start carrying the Glock 20SF in 10mm.  I just put a Lone Wolf barrel in it and am still testing it to see if I can keep the gun from blowing up.  So far, so good.

I am a proponent of point shooting at close range.  Not a lot of time to aim when you have less than three seconds to live.  However, my overriding philosophy is that the best way to win a gunfight is to not show up.

As to Orthodox sources, I like St. Alexander Nevsky and Jesus.  After all, Jesus is the one who said to sell my coat and buy a sword if I don't already have one.  I have read a lot of sophistry trying to get around that one.  Seems plainly worded to me.  Now, where I run a little bit afoul is when he said that two were enough.  I blew by that number a long time ago.
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« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2011, 01:07:53 AM »

Most of my time spent "preparing" is not to become overly tactical.  We have names for those, but I will refrain from printing them since someone will find some porn to associate with them or they may come off as vulgar in Polish.  In any case, the time I spend training and practicing has to do with other people's rights.  Just like I have the right to defend myself, those not involved in my problem have the right not to catch a bullet that I sent the wrong direction.  I just love these police shootouts (not!) where 30 rounds are fired and three hit the target.  Where the heck did the other 27 go?!?  I want the criminal to be afraid to go out at night, not the citizen.  If the citizen IS afraid, it should be of the criminal and not me.  THAT is why I spend so much time practicing my pistolcraft.


You are not coming off snarky at all. And really people need to get over that assumption in general on the internet and give the benefit of the doubt.
You point is well taken, but once a thread starts, who knows where it will go.

Good, and agreed on all points.
[Edit: I also agree with your point from an earlier post that many people spend an inordinate amount of time "preparing" for these situations.  There is a line between being proficient/prepared and being obsessed.  I'm not implying anyone from this thread has crossed that line, but there is plenty of $ to be made and time to be wasted on becoming the ultimate tactical... whatever.]

Figured I might as well answer the below for good measure:
Quote
Punch, Cognomen
How do you carry?
Deep concealed? Minotaur IWB at roughly 4:30.
Not (professional or otherwise)? Primary sidearm in a Blackhawk Paddle at 3:00-3:30.
All on a proper gun belt, usually extra mag(s) on opposite side or in ankle holster.
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« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2011, 01:18:53 AM »

Sorry Cognomen but this reply is going to go further off your intent for the thread. And perhaps too graphic for posting, MODs delete as needed.

One of the most practical adjuncts to learning how to properly use a firearm for real defense in place where danger actually exists, is how to use it when grabbed or being surprised before you get can the firearm barely out of the holster.

I am a lefty. When I boxed, I boxed unorthodox. But on the street always lead with your dominant hand (speed and accuracy trumps power and helps not to totally shatter your fingers, which I have done too often). So I would carry with use with my non-dominate hand.

At the gym I used to box at, I connected with some Filipinos and was invited to do some serious live escrima with them. The beauty of that experience is that you can pretty much scale the "stick" used to any size. And small object grappling is practiced.

So subbing out a knife with a firearm . . .

Dominate hand for dealing with the grappling and then using the non-dominate hand for the hand gun. In close, very close, quarters, when tangled up, forget head and chest targets and simply aim and load into the femoral, the way knife fighting was taught when grabbed by surprise.

Bleeding out from the femoral is rather quick.

But really, for immediately killing your opponent nothing beats a good whack with a blunt object to their head. Knife wounds and gunshots can take too long to cause death.

And keep a good lawyer on retainer.

But I don't carry anymore and live in what appears as the most dangerous neighborhood in America at least every third year. And I am pretty involved with the area. Just doesn't seem Christian to tote a firearm around FOR ME. Plus, I know that having that option is going to make other possible less violent options more likely to be used.

Christ is Risen . . . ?

 
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« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2011, 02:39:09 AM »

Sorry Cognomen but this reply is going to go further off your intent for the thread.
No worries at all.  As you mentioned, threads get going in their own way.  I was just excited at the prospect of the thread better answering some lingering questions I had.

Quote
One of the most practical adjuncts to learning how to properly use a firearm for real defense in place where danger actually exists, is how to use it when grabbed or being surprised before you get can the firearm barely out of the holster.
I can't agree more.  Trouble comes at you quick, sometimes before you can properly disengage.

Quote
I am a lefty. When I boxed, I boxed unorthodox. But on the street always lead with your dominant hand (speed and accuracy trumps power and helps not to totally shatter your fingers, which I have done too often).
Interesting, as I originally boxed "heterodox."  I changed after having to realign to keep my weapon side away from the "threat."

The Filipino methods and training I learned sounds very similar.

Quote
But I don't carry anymore and live in what appears as the most dangerous neighborhood in America at least every third year. And I am pretty involved with the area. Just doesn't seem Christian to tote a firearm around FOR ME. Plus, I know that having that option is going to make other possible less violent options more likely to be used.

Thanks for your perspective on this.



 
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« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2011, 03:31:39 PM »

Just curious, when Jesus said

"Turn the other cheek"
"Love your enemies"
"Pray for those who persecute you"
and
"do not resist an evil person"

I'm wondering how martial arts and preparing for physical defense works into the commands that God laid out? I think he was teaching non-resistance.
I don't want to go off on to hypothetical situations.  I believe he was addressing a group but individually speaking.

I'm not talking about "somebody about to kill your kids" etc.  I'm talking about YOU personally.
Just looking for thoughts.  Thanks!
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« Reply #104 on: May 05, 2011, 03:46:34 PM »

I am a lefty. When I boxed, I boxed unorthodox. But on the street always lead with your dominant hand (speed and accuracy trumps power and helps not to totally shatter your fingers, which I have done too often). So I would carry with use with my non-dominate hand.


I am right handed, and that is why I always have a weapon on me that can be reached with the left hand.  I carried crossdraw for many years until all of the training centers and competitions forbid it.  Now, my "backup" pistol is always on my left.  I put "backup" in quotes because in some scenarios, it is actually my primary and the first one that would be brought into action.

Probably one of the biggest weaknesses in CCW training is the emphasis on the use of the firearm without a lot of real training on hand to hand combat.  To make matters worse, this stupid State issues a "Concealed Handgun Permit" rather than a "Concealed Weapons Permit".  Remarkably, I can carry a handgun concealed, but not mace or pepper spray or a batton or other less leathal weaponry concealed.
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« Reply #105 on: May 05, 2011, 04:09:34 PM »

Well, since our bodies are a temple, and we are not to destroy that temple by doing things harmful to it, I don't see any problem with preventing other people from doing things to it.  Unlike Jesus, my death at the hands of evil people will not bring anyone salvation.  It will leave a wife and kids without a husband and father, and employer without a usefull employee, and a couple of welfare recipients without more than $20,000 per year of taxes that I pay.  It also cuts off some time that I have left to repent.  The way I see it, I will just have one more thing to repent over.  No, I am not being flippant about the matter.  I just have become tired of applying Christian ideals to a very non-Christian world. 

Just curious, when Jesus said

"Turn the other cheek"
"Love your enemies"
"Pray for those who persecute you"
and
"do not resist an evil person"

I'm wondering how martial arts and preparing for physical defense works into the commands that God laid out? I think he was teaching non-resistance.
I don't want to go off on to hypothetical situations.  I believe he was addressing a group but individually speaking.

I'm not talking about "somebody about to kill your kids" etc.  I'm talking about YOU personally.
Just looking for thoughts.  Thanks!
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« Reply #106 on: May 05, 2011, 04:14:18 PM »

I am a lefty. When I boxed, I boxed unorthodox. But on the street always lead with your dominant hand (speed and accuracy trumps power and helps not to totally shatter your fingers, which I have done too often). So I would carry with use with my non-dominate hand.


I am right handed, and that is why I always have a weapon on me that can be reached with the left hand.  I carried crossdraw for many years until all of the training centers and competitions forbid it.  Now, my "backup" pistol is always on my left.  I put "backup" in quotes because in some scenarios, it is actually my primary and the first one that would be brought into action.

Probably one of the biggest weaknesses in CCW training is the emphasis on the use of the firearm without a lot of real training on hand to hand combat.  To make matters worse, this stupid State issues a "Concealed Handgun Permit" rather than a "Concealed Weapons Permit".  Remarkably, I can carry a handgun concealed, but not mace or pepper spray or a batton or other less leathal weaponry concealed.

Truly bizarre indeed. Shows how far lobby money will go.

You have to careful anymore with anything that would be consider a "weapon", especially if you have training. The whole reasonable force and all that is nonsense. Not that I think this is Christian, but from secular civil perspective, if someone hits you, they have forfeited their life, if it so happens.

People get killed by a single punch. Heck, I am even for force in the face of "just threats". Society just needs to be more polite.

Humans can be incredibly fragile. At one wrestling meet in HS, a guy died on the mat from a broken neck. It was terrible. I can't imagine how the guy who did it felt.

I am not for an all out Wild West world, but the measures and strictures placed upon citizens and LEOs when defending themselves obviously come from the minds of those who have never been in any serious altercations and have watched too many TV shows and movies.

People honestly think LEOs should shoot someone in the arm or in the hand holding the weapon. lulz.

Most LEOs are crap with a firearm and almost never have to draw upon someone and fire, thank God, but when it happens you are going to miss a ton and the SOP is to empty the firearm.

Most people can barely give a description of the assailant after being robbed at gun point. Thankfully, being that scared ain't second nature to most.

Oh well.
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« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2011, 06:06:29 PM »

Just curious, when Jesus said

"Turn the other cheek"
"Love your enemies"
"Pray for those who persecute you"
and
"do not resist an evil person"

I'm wondering how martial arts and preparing for physical defense works into the commands that God laid out? I think he was teaching non-resistance.
I don't want to go off on to hypothetical situations.  I believe he was addressing a group but individually speaking.

I'm not talking about "somebody about to kill your kids" etc.  I'm talking about YOU personally.
Just looking for thoughts.  Thanks!

I have in the past and probably will again in the future turn the other cheek when goaded or harassed.

For example, I have been the  victim of verbal and mildly physical assaults by Anti-Semitic people. I was not goaded into aggressive behavior nor did I strike back physically. I  took it and 'turned the other cheek'. If it happens again in my life I will not argue or explain how I converted to Christianity. I will just take it and pray for the assailant.

If they lay a hand on me I will break it and send them to the hospital...

The guiding principle is reasonableness. Only a few factions interpret Christianity as being wholly pacifist, the Quakers and Amish for example. The notion that you should take a complete beating without resistance is unreasonable. You may well do much more harm to your assailant's spiritual well being if you let him hurt you far more than if you had stopped him. If he kills you, you have participated in his falling to hell unnecessarily.
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« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2011, 06:13:16 PM »

I don't know, Marc. I think there is a place for that degree of nonresistance.
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« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2011, 06:31:25 PM »

I don't know, Marc. I think there is a place for that degree of nonresistance.

Clearly there is a place. I agree.

 It is by no means the norm nor should it be. If it were we would be speaking with a British accent and the British would be speaking German...

Which is the greater saying "Turn the other cheek" or "Love thy neighbor" ? If my neighbor is being held in slavery and I am called to the Army to help free him, I would go....  etc.   
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« Reply #110 on: May 06, 2011, 01:25:05 AM »

The guiding principle is reasonableness. Only a few factions interpret Christianity as being wholly pacifist, the Quakers and Amish for example. The notion that you should take a complete beating without resistance is unreasonable.

It was accepting certain unreasonable elements of Christianity that finally enabled me to convert.  The martyrs, holy fathers, and many spiritual warriors of Orthodoxy were far from what we would now deem as reasonable.  In my experience, reasonable is not always the same as Christian.

Quote
You may well do much more harm to your assailant's spiritual well being if you let him hurt you far more than if you had stopped him. If he kills you, you have participated in his falling to hell unnecessarily.

Perhaps, but this seems an attempt to justify your (and my) reaction and chosen engagement within the context of Christianity.

You have to admit that there seems something wrong when comparing these two quotes:
Quote
But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Quote
If they lay a hand on me I will break it and send them to the hospital...

I understand that not all statements of Christ's are intended to be interpreted literally, but the OSB note for Matt 5:39 reads:
Quote
"In contrast to the OT, Jesus warns us not to resist [OSB's bold] violence with more violence."
 I'm well aware that the OSB notes are not definitive commentary/positions, and I know that Punch has many issues with these notes.  Still, providing Orthodox sources and teachings (not your own take on things) that back your position would be beneficial to me.  

Additionally:
Well, since our bodies are a temple, and we are not to destroy that temple by doing things harmful to it, I don't see any problem with preventing other people from doing things to it.
 
The 'protect the temple' sort of argument reminds me more of an Underarmour advert slogan ("We must protect this house!") than the teachings/examples of the church.  Not a lot of 'protecting the temple' examples chronicled in the Prologue of Ohrid.

I'm genuinely not trying to have a go and engage in argument for argument's sake.  This is a very relevant issue to me and, as of now, I remain unconvinced that my position is the Christian one.
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« Reply #111 on: May 06, 2011, 01:54:51 AM »

In general Cognomen, I am pretty much inclined to agree with everything you have to say on the matter, not that matters much.

But I can say one thing, "turning the other cheek" don't mean a lot, if that is your only option.

A lot of Christian pacifism I fear stems from people who couldn't mangage to survive a food fight. It's not for nothing when Ghandi started gathering folks for non-violent resistance he really wanted as many former military as possible.

It's one thing to walk away from an altercation or take a beating when you have no other choice out of fear, it is another when you pretty much know you could devour the human in front of you and you choose to do so. Or you are a Saint and truly stand without resistance out of love for your enemy.
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« Reply #112 on: May 06, 2011, 02:03:13 AM »

Interesting, as I originally boxed "heterodox."  I changed after having to realign to keep my weapon side away from the "threat."

lulz. I didn't even get the wordplay when I wrote what I did. You can I am a true non-Orthodox, when I associate "orthodox" more with boxing than Christianity.

Although this stuff is sorta behind me, it is interesting to hear from Punch and you how when it comes to really taking violence seriously, the evolution of firearm usage develops pretty much along the same line when it comes to realistic personal protection.



 
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« Reply #113 on: May 06, 2011, 02:06:23 AM »

The guiding principle is reasonableness. Only a few factions interpret Christianity as being wholly pacifist, the Quakers and Amish for example. The notion that you should take a complete beating without resistance is unreasonable.

It was accepting certain unreasonable elements of Christianity that finally enabled me to convert.  The martyrs, holy fathers, and many spiritual warriors of Orthodoxy were far from what we would now deem as reasonable.  In my experience, reasonable is not always the same as Christian.

Your response here resonates with me. It's a weird paradox. What I find not to be "attractive" so to speak, but feel in my gut as truth in Christianity is what is hardest to do.

Thanks for you patience throughout this thread and sharing your own experience with struggling with the issue.
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« Reply #114 on: May 06, 2011, 02:06:48 AM »

I am pretty much inclined to agree with everything you have to say on the matter, not that matters much.
And right back at you, sir.

You touched on some very serious concerns that I had with the concept of turning the other cheek, as I always believed it was done out of weakness and cowardice.  As you mentioned, sometimes it still is. 

Quote
But I can say one thing, "turning the other cheek" don't mean a lot, if that is your only option.
Exactly.  It reminds me of a line from The Ladder (I'll have to look it up later) about how it doesn't mean a lot if you are already a nice, passive, passionless person.
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« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2011, 02:23:56 AM »

It's a weird paradox. What I find not to be "attractive" so to speak, but feel in my gut as truth in Christianity is what is hardest to do.
All of this agreeing is wearing me out, but this is what I found as well.  In some ways, my extraordinarily powerful aversion towards tenets of Christianity helped show me that it is the path.  When initially inquiring into the faith, as soon as I learned how crucial the 2nd of the Great Commandments was, I wanted out! 

Quote
Thanks for you patience throughout this thread and sharing your own experience with struggling with the issue.
Absolutely, and thanks very much for your contribution.  This is a really complex and challenging subject for some of us.  Others struggle with other issues, e.g. standing up for the faith to others, being overly cautious about alienating people, etc.  That doesn't seem to be our bag.
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« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2011, 02:29:22 AM »

All of this agreeing is wearing me out

lulz. Just doesn't seem right.

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being overly cautious about alienating people, etc.  That doesn't seem to be our bag.

lulz with understatement.
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« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2011, 09:35:13 AM »

The guiding principle is reasonableness. Only a few factions interpret Christianity as being wholly pacifist, the Quakers and Amish for example. The notion that you should take a complete beating without resistance is unreasonable.

It was accepting certain unreasonable elements of Christianity that finally enabled me to convert.  The martyrs, holy fathers, and many spiritual warriors of Orthodoxy were far from what we would now deem as reasonable.  In my experience, reasonable is not always the same as Christian.

Quote
You may well do much more harm to your assailant's spiritual well being if you let him hurt you far more than if you had stopped him. If he kills you, you have participated in his falling to hell unnecessarily.

Perhaps, but this seems an attempt to justify your (and my) reaction and chosen engagement within the context of Christianity.

You have to admit that there seems something wrong when comparing these two quotes:
Quote
But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Quote
If they lay a hand on me I will break it and send them to the hospital...

I understand that not all statements of Christ's are intended to be interpreted literally, but the OSB note for Matt 5:39 reads:
Quote
"In contrast to the OT, Jesus warns us not to resist [OSB's bold] violence with more violence."
 I'm well aware that the OSB notes are not definitive commentary/positions, and I know that Punch has many issues with these notes.  Still, providing Orthodox sources and teachings (not your own take on things) that back your position would be beneficial to me.  

Additionally:
Well, since our bodies are a temple, and we are not to destroy that temple by doing things harmful to it, I don't see any problem with preventing other people from doing things to it.
 
The 'protect the temple' sort of argument reminds me more of an Underarmour advert slogan ("We must protect this house!") than the teachings/examples of the church.  Not a lot of 'protecting the temple' examples chronicled in the Prologue of Ohrid.

I'm genuinely not trying to have a go and engage in argument for argument's sake.  This is a very relevant issue to me and, as of now, I remain unconvinced that my position is the Christian one.

Yes, you can pick and choose what inspires you. We all do that. The fact is that the notion of a "Just War" has been debated and settled by the Church over a long period of time. Those conclusions apply here as well. The Church does not advocate total pacifism. Your mileage may vary.
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« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2011, 01:22:08 PM »


I'm genuinely not trying to have a go and engage in argument for argument's sake.  This is a very relevant issue to me and, as of now, I remain unconvinced that my position is the Christian one.

Putting matter in such a simple statement allows me to answer in a uncomplicated manner.  I an not simply "unconvinced", I am certain that my position is not a Christian one.  However, I do not live in a Christian world. 

In addition, while I do not consider "natural law" to be over the Law of God, to some extent I believe they are compatible.  After all, it was God who created nature.  Self preservation is a strong drive in EVERY living organism.  As is reproduction.  Freud once was attributed to saying that you can boil most human drives down to two main things: sex and death.  I do not agree with Freud on all matter (or even most), however, he may have a point here.  Self preservation and the desire to reproduce are two of the strongest drives in any living thing.  It has been stated on this thread that many of my views on self defense are a justification rather than actually the teachings of Christ.  That is not wholly incorrect.  They are a justification, based on my way of seeing the order of things.  Like with sex, the desire to reproduce is strong, so in my view celibacy is NOT a natural state for man.  I read all scripture regarding sex in this context.  To me, the Scriptures do not forbid sex, they give limits to where and how it should occur.  I see killing in self defense in the same manner.  Given the strong drive toward self preservation, passiveness is NOT natural.  I read the scripture in this context.  This leads me to derive the following from reading scripture:

1. Life is precious, and every attempt should be made to preserve it.
2. We should live our lives with forgiveness being the default point of view, not vengeance.
3. God did not bring death into the world, man did.  Killing is never a sinless act since killing is NOT perfection.
4. We should not kill out of passion or covetousness.  We should not kill in anger.
5. If a situation can be handled with non-lethal means, it should be.  Taking another person's life is not a trivial matter.  In doing so, you remove any chance of that person's repentance.  What is worse, you are taking his life at a time that he is probably committing a sin, and he will not have a chance to repent of that sin if lethal force is used.  As such, if you can survive the assault, you would do best to "turn the other cheek".
6. In a case where it is apparent that another person means to take my life or the life of one that I have a duty to protect, it is permitted for me to use the means at my disposal to prevent him from doing so.  If this results in his death, so be it.  I will have sinned, and the canons prescribe a penalty for that sin.  However, unlike the attacker, I will have time to repent.
7. My beliefs above also lead me to be against aggression.  My actions should be strictly defensive, and I should strive to do nothing that would bring aggression upon me.

I believe that a complete reading of the Scriptures, the Canons, and the writings of the Fathers - as well as the civil laws of our society, would show my views above to be compatible with Christianity in a non-perfect world.  My views, however, are NOT perfection and are fallen along with the rest of me.
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