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Author Topic: Pigeons from all over Kiev flew to the Kiev Laura on the Caves  (Read 4580 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 28, 2009, 01:59:39 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6251


News

         
27 July 2009, 17:58Pigeons from all over Kiev flew to the Kiev Laura on the Caves






Kiev, July 27, Interfax - A day before Patriarch Kirill's arrival to the Kiev Laura on the Caves parishioners and clerics watched an unusual phenomenon: pigeons massively migrated to the holy place.

"I've never seen so many pigeons in the Laura. I saw most of them not far from the refectory church in the upper part of the Kiev Laura on the Caves," Ukrainian edition of the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily has cited a local seminarian as saying on Monday.

Pigeons flew to the Laura from all over the city, they sat down to cornices of the buildings restored especially for the visit of the Russian Church Primate.

Parishioners told they saw something similar this spring, though on a smaller scale, when relics of St. Spyridon were brought to Kiev from Greek island Kerkira.

"Just a few hours before the relics were brought in pigeons started flying around the Laura. It looked so impressive," Kiev resident Anna says. "And now the day before His Holiness came, birds are gathering again. I believe it's a good sign."

For Patriarch Kirill's visit, a square before the Laura's Elevation of the Cross Church was restored and the caves where relics lie were whitewashed. Besides, the chapel was renovated and restoration works in the Church of Our Lady, the Joy of All Who Sorrow, are almost completed.


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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 01:23:38 AM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.
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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2009, 02:15:57 AM »

It's pretty obvious what this means.  Pigeons co-operated with the Nazis. 

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Nazi%20Pigeon.htm
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2009, 11:11:11 AM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 11:11:59 AM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2009, 11:40:35 AM »

All due respect to the critics of Patriarch Kyrill, he's dealing with a very tricky situation.  Neither Russians or Ukranians are known for their pasivity, and both can make the smallest arguement last for decades.  I know.  I've seen it.  And when it comes to church politics, neither have been willing to budge.  I don't see anything wrong with Ukraine wanting it's own church.  We in the States want that too.  Unlike us, they have a more unified front.  But, either way, the approval for such must come from the head office in Moscow, as Ukraine is still his canonical territory.  And he is not likely to give it as long as the Kyiv Patriarchate is headed by Mihail Denysenko (Filaret), who in the eyes of the church is excommunicated, and therefore unfit to recieve communion, much less led a church.  I'm not going with the rumors that he has a wife and kids, a I think slander is insult to injury.  I'm just sticking with the real obstacles.  The question to me is wether or not the non canonical Ukranians even want to meet at the table with His Holiness with an inkling of accepting his terms, or if they come to push their agenda only and not to listen to the man in whom their ultimate canonical fate lies.  From what I've seen, it's always the latter. 

Either way, I'm not holding my breath.
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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2009, 11:49:53 AM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

LOL.  Now we know why the pigeons came.  They wanted to see the watch.

Nice to see that the Russian media (and your source is Russian, for those who do not know) are focused on the right things.

Shame the patriarch doesn't get his money's worth.  I mean, the photographer had to blow it up and examine past the sleave of the vestments and under the prayer ropes.  Maybe we should see if he wears Parisian silk underwear next.

I don't recall, did St. Volodymyr set aside the crown jewels?

Of course, by ridiculing the Patriarch and his sermon on the danger of importing consumerism from the West (mentioned at the end of the article) the Korrrespondent has discredited consumerism and solved all of Ukraine's other problems.

just askin'
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 11:51:27 AM »

All due respect to the critics of Patriarch Kyrill, he's dealing with a very tricky situation.  Neither Russians or Ukranians are known for their pasivity, and both can make the smallest arguement last for decades.  I know.  I've seen it.  And when it comes to church politics, neither have been willing to budge.  I don't see anything wrong with Ukraine wanting it's own church.  We in the States want that too.  Unlike us, they have a more unified front.  But, either way, the approval for such must come from the head office in Moscow, as Ukraine is still his canonical territory.  And he is not likely to give it as long as the Kyiv Patriarchate is headed by Mihail Denysenko (Filaret), who in the eyes of the church is excommunicated, and therefore unfit to recieve communion, much less led a church.  I'm not going with the rumors that he has a wife and kids, a I think slander is insult to injury.  I'm just sticking with the real obstacles.  The question to me is wether or not the non canonical Ukranians even want to meet at the table with His Holiness with an inkling of accepting his terms, or if they come to push their agenda only and not to listen to the man in whom their ultimate canonical fate lies.  From what I've seen, it's always the latter. 

Either way, I'm not holding my breath.

yes, nothing is changing until Denysenko leaves the scene.
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2009, 11:52:05 AM »

All due respect to the critics of Patriarch Kyrill, he's dealing with a very tricky situation.  Neither Russians or Ukranians are known for their pasivity, and both can make the smallest arguement last for decades.  I know.  I've seen it.  And when it comes to church politics, neither have been willing to budge.  I don't see anything wrong with Ukraine wanting it's own church.  We in the States want that too.  Unlike us, they have a more unified front.  But, either way, the approval for such must come from the head office in Moscow, as Ukraine is still his canonical territory.  And he is not likely to give it as long as the Kyiv Patriarchate is headed by Mihail Denysenko (Filaret), who in the eyes of the church is excommunicated, and therefore unfit to recieve communion, much less led a church. 

He is not likely to give it simply because ROC cannot survive financially without the revenues from Ukrainian parishes. The ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory (disguised as "UOC parishes") make up about 40% of all ROC parishes, and they are the richest (many parishes in the Russian Federation, especially in Siberia and Far East, bring virtually no revenue). And the ROC has a colossal bureaucratic apparatus that needs to be FED. And His Holiness the Patriarch sports a $36,000 Brequet golden watch...
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2009, 11:56:02 AM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Since wehn does the type of watch one wears designate one spirituality?  It amazes me that your hatred is such that you have to resort to posts like this to try and discredit a person because you can't find anything else.

Orthodoc

P.S.  Does this mean that Filaret wears a Timex?  Bet he doesn't ,the same a the Pope of Rome or any other hierach in the non-canonical Ukrainian Churches!  Gret real!
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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2009, 11:59:02 AM »

All due respect to the critics of Patriarch Kyrill, he's dealing with a very tricky situation.  Neither Russians or Ukranians are known for their pasivity, and both can make the smallest arguement last for decades.  I know.  I've seen it.  And when it comes to church politics, neither have been willing to budge.  I don't see anything wrong with Ukraine wanting it's own church.  We in the States want that too.  Unlike us, they have a more unified front.  But, either way, the approval for such must come from the head office in Moscow, as Ukraine is still his canonical territory.  And he is not likely to give it as long as the Kyiv Patriarchate is headed by Mihail Denysenko (Filaret), who in the eyes of the church is excommunicated, and therefore unfit to recieve communion, much less led a church. 

He is not likely to give it simply because ROC cannot survive financially without the revenues from Ukrainian parishes. The ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory (disguised as "UOC parishes") make up about 40% of all ROC parishes, and they are the richest (many parishes in the Russian Federation, especially in Siberia and Far East, bring virtually no revenue). And the ROC has a colossal bureaucratic apparatus that needs to be FED. And His Holiness the Patriarch sports a $36,000 Brequet golden watch...


All those Petrodollars that Moscow has to throw around for propoganda and no money to buy the Patriarch a watch so he has to extract it from Ukraine.  What a shame! What a shame! Roll Eyes

How do you disguise a ROC parish?  Like a Russian site of a magazine from Ukraine? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2009, 12:01:22 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Since wehn does the type of watch one wears designate one spirituality?  It amazes me that your hatred is such that you have to resort to posts like this to try and discredit a person because you can't find anything else.

Orthodoc

P.S.  Does this mean that Filaret wears a Timex?  Bet he doesn't ,the same a the Pope of Rome or any other hierach in the non-canonical Ukrainian Churches!  Gret real!

St. John Maximovich, of course, was unreal.
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2009, 12:03:26 PM »

All due respect to the critics of Patriarch Kyrill, he's dealing with a very tricky situation.  Neither Russians or Ukranians are known for their pasivity, and both can make the smallest arguement last for decades.  I know.  I've seen it.  And when it comes to church politics, neither have been willing to budge.  I don't see anything wrong with Ukraine wanting it's own church.  We in the States want that too.  Unlike us, they have a more unified front.  But, either way, the approval for such must come from the head office in Moscow, as Ukraine is still his canonical territory.  And he is not likely to give it as long as the Kyiv Patriarchate is headed by Mihail Denysenko (Filaret), who in the eyes of the church is excommunicated, and therefore unfit to recieve communion, much less led a church. 

He is not likely to give it simply because ROC cannot survive financially without the revenues from Ukrainian parishes. The ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory (disguised as "UOC parishes") make up about 40% of all ROC parishes, and they are the richest (many parishes in the Russian Federation, especially in Siberia and Far East, bring virtually no revenue). And the ROC has a colossal bureaucratic apparatus that needs to be FED. And His Holiness the Patriarch sports a $36,000 Brequet golden watch...


All those Petrodollars that Moscow has to throw around for propoganda and no money to buy the Patriarch a watch so he has to extract it from Ukraine.  What a shame! What a shame! Roll Eyes

How do you disguise a ROC parish?  Like a Russian site of a magazine from Ukraine? Roll Eyes

You have something concrete to object against 40% of ROC parishes being the UOC parishes on the Ukrainian territory and bringing revenue to the Center? Or can you prove UOC (MP) parishes do NOT donate any money to the Center?
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2009, 12:23:25 PM »

http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/07/29/190433

Quote
Kiril says Ukraine does not need autonomous church

July 29, 2009

Moscow Patriarch Kiril says to give autonomy to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, UOC, would be premature and would split Ukraine. Kiril was addressing the Orthodox clergy and intellectuals at the Kyiv Lavra monastery July 29. "We have to unite around a common idea. Autonomy is not a common idea today," Kiril said.

The idea of the autonomy has been overly politicized, and is not shared by all Ukraine Orthodox. All the radical demands for the autonomy are based on political arguments only, he added.

Kiril desribed as naive the demand for the autonomy expressed by some Ukrainians.

"The issue of the autonomy divides Ukrainians because many still are not aware of the importance of a single Russian church in Ukraine and worldwide," Kiril maintained.

That the idea of the UOC autonomy is not shared by all cannot be explained by imperial intrigues of Moscow, as the media claim. It is rooted in our history as Kyiv is the only capital of the Russian Orthodoxy, Kiril argued.

Kiril described as improper the arguments that, since the Czech and Albanians have autonomous churches, Ukraine should also have the one, saying again that Kyiv is "our Jerusalem and our Constantinople, the core of our life."

In the Moscow patriarch's opinion, the UOC (Moscow patriarchate) is an autonomous church. "The church has its Synod that runs the church without any interference from Moscow."

"When the Moscow patriarch takes care not merely of the Russian Federation [but also about other Russian Orthodox churches in other areas - Ed.], it reflects our tradition. Some may not like it, but this is our tradition," Kiril claimed.

"Any violation of traditions is rife with problems and causes a split," Kiril added. [Kiril quoting the slogans he saw in Kyiv] "Sovereign church to sovereign Ukraine!" "Why should we take orders from patriarch in Moscow?" "These slogans have been put up by those who invited to Ukraine the Constantinople patriarch.

Why can't the Moscow patriarch do the same?"

He also said that if Ukraine Greek Catholic Church recognized the supremacy of the Pope, Ukraine Orthodox can do the same with regard to Moscow.
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 01:06:32 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Since wehn does the type of watch one wears designate one spirituality?  It amazes me that your hatred is such that you have to resort to posts like this to try and discredit a person because you can't find anything else.

Orthodoc

P.S.  Does this mean that Filaret wears a Timex?  Bet he doesn't ,the same a the Pope of Rome or any other hierach in the non-canonical Ukrainian Churches!  Gret real!

St. John Maximovich, of course, was unreal.

It's your reply to my qustion that is unreal.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2009, 01:13:04 PM »

All due respect to the critics of Patriarch Kyrill, he's dealing with a very tricky situation.  Neither Russians or Ukranians are known for their pasivity, and both can make the smallest arguement last for decades.  I know.  I've seen it.  And when it comes to church politics, neither have been willing to budge.  I don't see anything wrong with Ukraine wanting it's own church.  We in the States want that too.  Unlike us, they have a more unified front.  But, either way, the approval for such must come from the head office in Moscow, as Ukraine is still his canonical territory.  And he is not likely to give it as long as the Kyiv Patriarchate is headed by Mihail Denysenko (Filaret), who in the eyes of the church is excommunicated, and therefore unfit to recieve communion, much less led a church. 

He is not likely to give it simply because ROC cannot survive financially without the revenues from Ukrainian parishes. The ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory (disguised as "UOC parishes") make up about 40% of all ROC parishes, and they are the richest (many parishes in the Russian Federation, especially in Siberia and Far East, bring virtually no revenue). And the ROC has a colossal bureaucratic apparatus that needs to be FED. And His Holiness the Patriarch sports a $36,000 Brequet golden watch...


All those Petrodollars that Moscow has to throw around for propoganda and no money to buy the Patriarch a watch so he has to extract it from Ukraine.  What a shame! What a shame! Roll Eyes

How do you disguise a ROC parish?  Like a Russian site of a magazine from Ukraine? Roll Eyes

Guess he means that the big bad Russian government used the first tax revenues they received after they took Ukraine at their word of being a separate country rather than a part o the CIS, by putting import taxes on them the same as any other 'independent' countrty, to buy the MP a gold watch!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2009, 01:16:35 PM »

All due respect to the critics of Patriarch Kyrill, he's dealing with a very tricky situation.  Neither Russians or Ukranians are known for their pasivity, and both can make the smallest arguement last for decades.  I know.  I've seen it.  And when it comes to church politics, neither have been willing to budge.  I don't see anything wrong with Ukraine wanting it's own church.  We in the States want that too.  Unlike us, they have a more unified front.  But, either way, the approval for such must come from the head office in Moscow, as Ukraine is still his canonical territory.  And he is not likely to give it as long as the Kyiv Patriarchate is headed by Mihail Denysenko (Filaret), who in the eyes of the church is excommunicated, and therefore unfit to recieve communion, much less led a church. 

He is not likely to give it simply because ROC cannot survive financially without the revenues from Ukrainian parishes. The ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory (disguised as "UOC parishes") make up about 40% of all ROC parishes, and they are the richest (many parishes in the Russian Federation, especially in Siberia and Far East, bring virtually no revenue). And the ROC has a colossal bureaucratic apparatus that needs to be FED. And His Holiness the Patriarch sports a $36,000 Brequet golden watch...


All those Petrodollars that Moscow has to throw around for propoganda and no money to buy the Patriarch a watch so he has to extract it from Ukraine.  What a shame! What a shame! Roll Eyes

How do you disguise a ROC parish?  Like a Russian site of a magazine from Ukraine? Roll Eyes

Guess he means that the big bad Russian government used the first tax revenues they received after they took Ukraine at their word of being a separate country rather than a part o the CIS, by putting import taxes on them the same as any other 'independent' countrty, to buy the MP a gold watch!

Orthodoc

I only mean what I wrote. A huge number of UOC-MP parishes are sending money to Moscow, to support the huge ROC bureaucratic apparatus. That's why Patr. Kiril and other hierarchs of ROC are against autocephaly. If you know facts that contradict this statement, please publish them.
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2009, 01:17:25 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Since wehn does the type of watch one wears designate one spirituality?  It amazes me that your hatred is such that you have to resort to posts like this to try and discredit a person because you can't find anything else.

Orthodoc

P.S.  Does this mean that Filaret wears a Timex?  Bet he doesn't ,the same a the Pope of Rome or any other hierach in the non-canonical Ukrainian Churches!  Gret real!

St. John Maximovich, of course, was unreal.

It's your reply to my qustion that is unreal.

Orthodoc

So how much was St. John's Breguet worth?
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2009, 01:20:05 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Since wehn does the type of watch one wears designate one spirituality?  It amazes me that your hatred is such that you have to resort to posts like this to try and discredit a person because you can't find anything else.

Orthodoc

P.S.  Does this mean that Filaret wears a Timex?  Bet he doesn't ,the same a the Pope of Rome or any other hierach in the non-canonical Ukrainian Churches!  Gret real!

St. John Maximovich, of course, was unreal.

It's your reply to my qustion that is unreal.

Orthodoc

So how much was St. John's Breguet worth?

How much is Filaret's watch worth?  Or any other Hierachs for that matter?
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2009, 01:23:21 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Since wehn does the type of watch one wears designate one spirituality?  It amazes me that your hatred is such that you have to resort to posts like this to try and discredit a person because you can't find anything else.

Orthodoc

P.S.  Does this mean that Filaret wears a Timex?  Bet he doesn't ,the same a the Pope of Rome or any other hierach in the non-canonical Ukrainian Churches!  Gret real!

St. John Maximovich, of course, was unreal.

It's your reply to my qustion that is unreal.

Orthodoc

So how much was St. John's Breguet worth?

How much is Filaret's watch worth?  Or any other Hierachs for that matter?

OK, you win, let's forget Maximovich. Better listen to Patr. Kiril's sermon about how bad it is that the world is now so consumerist... (http://www2.maidan.org.ua/n/about/1248956388 )
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2009, 01:42:32 PM »

All due respect to the critics of Patriarch Kyrill, he's dealing with a very tricky situation.  Neither Russians or Ukranians are known for their pasivity, and both can make the smallest arguement last for decades.  I know.  I've seen it.  And when it comes to church politics, neither have been willing to budge.  I don't see anything wrong with Ukraine wanting it's own church.  We in the States want that too.  Unlike us, they have a more unified front.  But, either way, the approval for such must come from the head office in Moscow, as Ukraine is still his canonical territory.  And he is not likely to give it as long as the Kyiv Patriarchate is headed by Mihail Denysenko (Filaret), who in the eyes of the church is excommunicated, and therefore unfit to recieve communion, much less led a church. 

He is not likely to give it simply because ROC cannot survive financially without the revenues from Ukrainian parishes. The ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory (disguised as "UOC parishes") make up about 40% of all ROC parishes, and they are the richest (many parishes in the Russian Federation, especially in Siberia and Far East, bring virtually no revenue). And the ROC has a colossal bureaucratic apparatus that needs to be FED. And His Holiness the Patriarch sports a $36,000 Brequet golden watch...


All those Petrodollars that Moscow has to throw around for propoganda and no money to buy the Patriarch a watch so he has to extract it from Ukraine.  What a shame! What a shame! Roll Eyes

How do you disguise a ROC parish?  Like a Russian site of a magazine from Ukraine? Roll Eyes

You have something concrete to object against 40% of ROC parishes being the UOC parishes on the Ukrainian territory

How can they be UOC parishes if they are ROC in disguise?

Quote
and bringing revenue to the Center? Or can you prove UOC (MP) parishes do NOT donate any money to the Center?

No, I just thought with all those petrodollars that the Kremlin has, so you claim, to brainwash the world that they could buy the patriach a watch so he wouldn't have to depend on the Ukrainians (or are they Russians in disguised ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory?).
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2009, 01:43:40 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Since wehn does the type of watch one wears designate one spirituality?  It amazes me that your hatred is such that you have to resort to posts like this to try and discredit a person because you can't find anything else.

Orthodoc

P.S.  Does this mean that Filaret wears a Timex?  Bet he doesn't ,the same a the Pope of Rome or any other hierach in the non-canonical Ukrainian Churches!  Gret real!

St. John Maximovich, of course, was unreal.

It's your reply to my qustion that is unreal.

Orthodoc

So how much was St. John's Breguet worth?

How much is Filaret's watch worth?  Or any other Hierachs for that matter?

OK, you win, let's forget Maximovich. Better listen to Patr. Kiril's sermon about how bad it is that the world is now so consumerist... (http://www2.maidan.org.ua/n/about/1248956388 )

When I retired after 30 years of loyal service my company awarded me a gold watch for that service.  This is done here in the U.S. by many companies at retirement.  Does this put all our spirituality in danger for accepting this gift?  What has it to do with consumerism?  Have you ever refused a gift because of consumerism issues you had?

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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2009, 01:47:29 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Since wehn does the type of watch one wears designate one spirituality?  It amazes me that your hatred is such that you have to resort to posts like this to try and discredit a person because you can't find anything else.

Orthodoc

P.S.  Does this mean that Filaret wears a Timex?  Bet he doesn't ,the same a the Pope of Rome or any other hierach in the non-canonical Ukrainian Churches!  Gret real!

St. John Maximovich, of course, was unreal.

It's your reply to my qustion that is unreal.

Orthodoc

So how much was St. John's Breguet worth?

How much is Filaret's watch worth?  Or any other Hierachs for that matter?

OK, you win, let's forget Maximovich. Better listen to Patr. Kiril's sermon about how bad it is that the world is now so consumerist... (http://www2.maidan.org.ua/n/about/1248956388 )
George, that's the same story on a different site.
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2009, 01:57:05 PM »

No, I just thought with all those petrodollars that the Kremlin has, so you claim, to brainwash the world that they could buy the patriach a watch so he wouldn't have to depend on the Ukrainians (or are they Russians in disguised ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory?).

He bought (or was given) the watch himself, of course. Ukrainians or Russians or petrodollars have nothing to do with that. I was just replying to the claim that Patr. Kiril has some special "holiness" about himself. Obviously he is not like St. John Maximovich or other holy men who were ascetics. But then, yes, maybe he has a different kind of holiness. Still I don't like it when ANYBODY preaches about the evils of consumerism living in million-dollar penthouses, riding in limousines and sporting golden $36,000 Breguets. Shoot me.

But I asked the question: is it not true that the numerous parishes of the so-called "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church (with all its alleged "autonomy without autocephaly) send a lot of money to Moscow? You KNOW that they do not?
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2009, 04:14:22 PM »

Heorhij:

I know you are somewhat of a patriot, nothing wrong with that. But you are bringing up something as far as wealth is concerned that itself seems petty at best.  Shall we remark on the Patriarch's Panagia (0golpion), made from Precious stone and Gold, and ancient at that. Shall we then take all the gold away from him and from the inside of the churches, and the vestments, and the icons, and those in Ukraine as well, and then apply the same pricipal to all the Orthodox churches around the world?  My point is that a watch does not the entire wealth of Ukraine make, or Russia for that matter, which, if your calcualtions are correct, still gives the Russian Church 60% of all donations.  I's a snippy arguement, and an unworthy one.  St. John of Kronstadt recived many rich gifts, including vestments which he wore.  We cannot criticize a Patriarch for recieving gifts.  And we definitly can't guage his fitness as a leader thereby.  Will you criticize all the Patriarchs and Bishops or even priests in this way?  We cannot, brother, be so shallow as to make such things a point of arguement. 
   
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2009, 04:20:44 PM »

No, I just thought with all those petrodollars that the Kremlin has, so you claim, to brainwash the world that they could buy the patriach a watch so he wouldn't have to depend on the Ukrainians (or are they Russians in disguised ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory?).

He bought (or was given) the watch himself, of course. Ukrainians or Russians or petrodollars have nothing to do with that. I was just replying to the claim that Patr. Kiril has some special "holiness" about himself. Obviously he is not like St. John Maximovich or other holy men who were ascetics. But then, yes, maybe he has a different kind of holiness. Still I don't like it when ANYBODY preaches about the evils of consumerism living in million-dollar penthouses, riding in limousines and sporting golden $36,000 Breguets. Shoot me.

But I asked the question: is it not true that the numerous parishes of the so-called "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church (with all its alleged "autonomy without autocephaly) send a lot of money to Moscow? You KNOW that they do not?
  With 40% of the ROC parishes in the Ukraine, I expect almost half the overhead would be there too.  You have any figures?
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2009, 04:57:22 PM »

No, I just thought with all those petrodollars that the Kremlin has, so you claim, to brainwash the world that they could buy the patriach a watch so he wouldn't have to depend on the Ukrainians (or are they Russians in disguised ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory?).

He bought (or was given) the watch himself, of course. Ukrainians or Russians or petrodollars have nothing to do with that. I was just replying to the claim that Patr. Kiril has some special "holiness" about himself. Obviously he is not like St. John Maximovich or other holy men who were ascetics. But then, yes, maybe he has a different kind of holiness. Still I don't like it when ANYBODY preaches about the evils of consumerism living in million-dollar penthouses, riding in limousines and sporting golden $36,000 Breguets. Shoot me.

But I asked the question: is it not true that the numerous parishes of the so-called "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church (with all its alleged "autonomy without autocephaly) send a lot of money to Moscow? You KNOW that they do not?
  With 40% of the ROC parishes in the Ukraine, I expect almost half the overhead would be there too.  You have any figures?

Sent the question to a Ukrainian site, waiting for an answer.
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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2009, 09:35:39 PM »

Who cares about watches? Maybe they both received their watches as gifts. Didn't Christ say something about not judging? Do you know the soul of Patriarch Kiril? How about Filaret? Let God worry about them. Nobody can judge either one of them since we don't know whats in their soul, only God does.
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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2009, 09:40:15 PM »

No, I just thought with all those petrodollars that the Kremlin has, so you claim, to brainwash the world that they could buy the patriach a watch so he wouldn't have to depend on the Ukrainians (or are they Russians in disguised ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory?).

He bought (or was given) the watch himself, of course. Ukrainians or Russians or petrodollars have nothing to do with that. I was just replying to the claim that Patr. Kiril has some special "holiness" about himself. Obviously he is not like St. John Maximovich or other holy men who were ascetics. But then, yes, maybe he has a different kind of holiness. Still I don't like it when ANYBODY preaches about the evils of consumerism living in million-dollar penthouses, riding in limousines and sporting golden $36,000 Breguets. Shoot me.

But I asked the question: is it not true that the numerous parishes of the so-called "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church (with all its alleged "autonomy without autocephaly) send a lot of money to Moscow? You KNOW that they do not?
  With 40% of the ROC parishes in the Ukraine, I expect almost half the overhead would be there too.  You have any figures?

Sent the question to a Ukrainian site, waiting for an answer.

Why don't I send it to a Russian site?
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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2009, 04:15:03 AM »

What is the pigeons flocking to the Kiev Laura on the Caves suppose to signify, other than say when a whole group of people gather in one place and pigeons being opportunistic knowing of the possability of food being dropped.... Huh Huh
Where i park my suburu theres a man from india a former hindu turned christian that carries a 20 pound bag of rice in the trunk of his car to feed the pigeons ,like clock work at the same time they gather wright by my car knowing hes on his way to feed them,,I get so angry at him for that...iv argued with him about that,,i told him throw the rice by your car not by mine..it doesn't sink in what i tell  him.....so you see why i think there there for dropped snacks ...
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2009, 04:18:49 AM »

Why flocks of flying rats would be seen as a great thing is beyond me.  laugh
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2009, 04:26:51 AM »

I have a feeling that some threads are started simply so that we can get more use of the  Huh icon.
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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2009, 04:36:12 AM »

Would it be a sin to poison them, i did tell him i would if he continues feeding by my car ... Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2009, 04:40:11 AM »

Would it be a sin to poison them, i did tell him i would if he continues feeding by my car ... Huh Huh Huh

Nature is tough, they are just going where the food is.  Try spraying them with a hose, they seem to hate being wet.
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2009, 07:54:29 AM »

Would it be a sin to poison them, i did tell him i would if he continues feeding by my car ... Huh Huh Huh

By feeding them rice he is killing them.  It is known that rice is bad for birds.  When it becomes moist in their stomachs it expands killing them.  Isn't that why there are laws against throwing rice at weddings in many places/

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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2009, 08:32:19 AM »


Well...with so many pigeons flying overhead...I only hope they don't "soil" everyone's clothes who are below.

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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2009, 08:38:00 AM »

No, I just thought with all those petrodollars that the Kremlin has, so you claim, to brainwash the world that they could buy the patriach a watch so he wouldn't have to depend on the Ukrainians (or are they Russians in disguised ROC parishes on Ukrainian territory?).

He bought (or was given) the watch himself, of course. Ukrainians or Russians or petrodollars have nothing to do with that. I was just replying to the claim that Patr. Kiril has some special "holiness" about himself. Obviously he is not like St. John Maximovich or other holy men who were ascetics. But then, yes, maybe he has a different kind of holiness. Still I don't like it when ANYBODY preaches about the evils of consumerism living in million-dollar penthouses, riding in limousines and sporting golden $36,000 Breguets. Shoot me.

But I asked the question: is it not true that the numerous parishes of the so-called "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church (with all its alleged "autonomy without autocephaly) send a lot of money to Moscow? You KNOW that they do not?
  With 40% of the ROC parishes in the Ukraine, I expect almost half the overhead would be there too.  You have any figures?

Sent the question to a Ukrainian site, waiting for an answer.

Why don't I send it to a Russian site?

Go ahead. On the site I sent my request to, there are UOC-MP faithful as well. The reply I got so far is this: they do collect money for various specific projects of the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchy); this is done on an irregular basis and announced openly; also, they THINK that a certain percentage of their donations goes to MP, but the rank-and-file laity has no idea how much. In UKraine, most parishes do not have the custom of publishing all their financial affairs in bulletins, like it is done here in the USA.
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« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2009, 08:38:36 AM »

Why flocks of flying rats would be seen as a great thing is beyond me.  laugh

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kVBP7On28Fs/SFKliOkyz-I/AAAAAAAAATg/fcZlr8OL3r4/s200/photo-flying-monkeys.jpg

Yeah, I wondered that myself.  I go with Stashko's explanation.
What is the pigeons flocking to the Kiev Laura on the Caves suppose to signify, other than say when a whole group of people gather in one place and pigeons being opportunistic knowing of the possability of food being dropped.... Huh Huh
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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2009, 02:07:20 PM »

Would it be a sin to poison them, i did tell him i would if he continues feeding by my car ... Huh Huh Huh

By feeding them rice he is killing them.  It is known that rice is bad for birds.  When it becomes moist in their stomachs it expands killing them.  Isn't that why there are laws against throwing rice at weddings in many places/

Orthodoc


It hasn't killed them yet ..one can only hope...theres like two hundred pigeons..they must be telling there friends about the free rice...
I just bought a suburu forester and id like to keep it clean for a while...I did tell him he'd be doing Gods work better by Sending money to his country or even shipping rice to feed his people that are the poor of the poor that are dying in alley ways or on main streets of his country.....It seems like anything i say to him does't sink in....hope it doesn't turn into fist and cuffs,,thats were it heading...
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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2009, 04:09:45 PM »

Would it be a sin to poison them, i did tell him i would if he continues feeding by my car ... Huh Huh Huh

By feeding them rice he is killing them.  It is known that rice is bad for birds.  When it becomes moist in their stomachs it expands killing them.  Isn't that why there are laws against throwing rice at weddings in many places/

Orthodoc


It hasn't killed them yet ..one can only hope...theres like two hundred pigeons..they must be telling there friends about the free rice...
I just bought a suburu forester and id like to keep it clean for a while...I did tell him he'd be doing Gods work better by Sending money to his country or even shipping rice to feed his people that are the poor of the poor that are dying in alley ways or on main streets of his country.....It seems like anything i say to him does't sink in....hope it doesn't turn into fist and cuffs,,thats were it heading...

Tell me about it!  These flying rats keep try to build a nest on top of my air conditioner (because it is underneath a awning.  I keep destroying the nests but some of the twigs have fallen thru he vents and now the motor won't work!

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« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2009, 06:46:11 PM »

Wonderful to see the Orthodox so in harmony with their fellow creatures.
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« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2009, 11:04:26 PM »

Didn't St John Maximovitch has a pet pigeon?
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« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2010, 12:17:07 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Actually, you can get one online with free shipping from $99 to $152.00 at

http://hot-replica.com/replica_watches/breguet_classique_le_reveil_du_tsar_11943.html

This watch is Russian-themed "Le Reveil du Tsar."

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Although I'd have to hide it from reporters if I visit the Ukraine. . .

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« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2010, 01:00:34 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Actually, you can get one online with free shipping from $99 to $152.00 at

http://hot-replica.com/replica_watches/breguet_classique_le_reveil_du_tsar_11943.html

This watch is Russian-themed "Le Reveil du Tsar."

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Although I'd have to hide it from reporters if I visit the Ukraine. . .



Father, I thought you, as a monk, cannot have any property - am I wrong?
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« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2010, 01:07:11 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Actually, you can get one online with free shipping from $99 to $152.00 at

http://hot-replica.com/replica_watches/breguet_classique_le_reveil_du_tsar_11943.html

This watch is Russian-themed "Le Reveil du Tsar."

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Although I'd have to hide it from reporters if I visit the Ukraine. . .



Father, I thought you, as a monk, cannot have any property - am I wrong?

In my case, yes.  But I am not the norm of monastic life.  I was sent out of my monastery 28 years ago to care for 3 Russian parishes.   I was not provided with any money and have never received a salary from the parishes or diocese.    I have had to provide for myself (apart from airfares to parishes, donations for weddings and funerals) and live on a level of poverty which my countrymen would find hard to tolerate.  It's all good!   Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2010, 02:51:12 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Actually, you can get one online with free shipping from $99 to $152.00 at

http://hot-replica.com/replica_watches/breguet_classique_le_reveil_du_tsar_11943.html

This watch is Russian-themed "Le Reveil du Tsar."

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Although I'd have to hide it from reporters if I visit the Ukraine. . .



Father, I thought you, as a monk, cannot have any property - am I wrong?

In my case, yes.  But I am not the norm of monastic life.  I was sent out of my monastery 28 years ago to care for 3 Russian parishes.   I was not provided with any money and have never received a salary from the parishes or diocese.    I have had to provide for myself (apart from airfares to parishes, donations for weddings and funerals) and live on a level of poverty which my countrymen would find hard to tolerate.  It's all good!   Smiley

Strange. I thought it was a norm (or even a law) for any monk to give up all property. So, a monk who buys an expensive watch for himself... I can't even place it in my head.
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« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2010, 06:22:06 PM »

Strange. I thought it was a norm (or even a law) for any monk to give up all property. So, a monk who buys an expensive watch for himself... I can't even place it in my head.

Stop doing mental gymnastics and leave the matter between Patriarch Kirrill, his Spiritual Father, and God. We don't know the state of the Patriarch's heart and soul, and we don't know the instructions he has received from his Spiritual Father. Furthermore, the watch may have been a gift. We don't know, so why worry about it?
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« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2010, 06:33:07 PM »

We don't know the state of the Patriarch's heart and soul, and we don't know the instructions he has received from his Spiritual Father.

Maybe he was given it as a way to humble him.  You never know.

I have heard of people being commanded to eat meat and dairy by their spiritual father during Lent in order to humble them.
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« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2010, 06:51:44 PM »

Strange. I thought it was a norm (or even a law) for any monk to give up all property. So, a monk who buys an expensive watch for himself... I can't even place it in my head.

Stop doing mental gymnastics and leave the matter between Patriarch Kirrill, his Spiritual Father, and God. We don't know the state of the Patriarch's heart and soul, and we don't know the instructions he has received from his Spiritual Father. Furthermore, the watch may have been a gift. We don't know, so why worry about it?

I have stopped it long ago - it's Father Ambrose who resumed it, not me.
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« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2010, 10:02:02 PM »

This is to show what a holy man Patriarch Kiril is.

God bless him.  I hope His oliness will be able to unite people.

Do holy people wear Breguet watch made of pure gold, with a strap made of crocodile skin, costing from 28,000 to 36,000 euro (http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/918683)? Just askin'...

Actually, you can get one online with free shipping from $99 to $152.00 at

http://hot-replica.com/replica_watches/breguet_classique_le_reveil_du_tsar_11943.html

This watch is Russian-themed "Le Reveil du Tsar."

I'm thinking of getting one myself.

Although I'd have to hide it from reporters if I visit the Ukraine. . .



Father, I thought you, as a monk, cannot have any property - am I wrong?

In my case, yes.  But I am not the norm of monastic life.  I was sent out of my monastery 28 years ago to care for 3 Russian parishes.   I was not provided with any money and have never received a salary from the parishes or diocese.    I have had to provide for myself (apart from airfares to parishes, donations for weddings and funerals) and live on a level of poverty which my countrymen would find hard to tolerate.  It's all good!   Smiley

Strange. I thought it was a norm (or even a law) for any monk to give up all property. So, a monk who buys an expensive watch for himself... I can't even place it in my head.

How nice if I had been able to "give up all property"  and someone else assumed the worries of providing a place for me to live out of the rain, clothes for my back and food for the body Sad  Since the ecclesiastical authorities and the faithful did not provide these things, I suppose I could have slept on the streets and truly given up all property.  Truly a Christ-like way to live and a fine example to the city!   "The foxes and the birds of the air... but the Son of Man hath nowhere to lay his head..."  I certainly "gave up all property" in the sense that I "worked" full-time for the parishes for 30 years without receiving a dollar.

This article by a senior priest of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad about the truly awful poverty of our priests and the indifference of the laity will appall you
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0006A&L=ORTHODOX&P=R8636

I think in my case it was exacerbated, because, as a monk without a family, people thought I was holy enough to exist on fresh air.   laugh

I have never owned a watch since I have been a monk.  I couldn't afford one.   But is a $99 imitation Breguet seen as expensive in the States?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 10:05:49 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2010, 09:13:39 PM »

I have never owned a watch since I have been a monk.  I couldn't afford one.   But is a $99 imitation Breguet seen as expensive in the States?
As a matter of fact, yes. My watch costs $9.99.

This is almost besides the point. Breguet (as any other piece of luxury jewelery) is designed to indulge vanity. Imitation Breguet adds deception. And, Father, let's not fool ourselves: His Holiness's piece is quite real.
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« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2010, 12:55:57 AM »

I have never owned a watch since I have been a monk.  I couldn't afford one.   But is a $99 imitation Breguet seen as expensive in the States?
As a matter of fact, yes. My watch costs $9.99.

This is almost besides the point. Breguet (as any other piece of luxury jewelery) is designed to indulge vanity. Imitation Breguet adds deception. And, Father, let's not fool ourselves: His Holiness's piece is quite real.

I've seen people get churned-up about the bishop's car, a BMW.  Donated by a wealthy man and serviced for free by a pious Serb mechanic.  I suppose that not all hierarchs are called to holy Patriarch Pavle's level of poverty. 
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« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2010, 01:47:45 AM »

It is very possible that the watch previously discussed was also a gift.  Russians love to give gifts.

 A car dealership owner gave my neighbor, a retired RC priest, a new car when he retired. Father encouraged him to donate it to the church, but the man insisted Father drive it because it was an expression of his appreciation/love.   It would be very offensive to this parishioner if Father did not use his "gift".
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« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2010, 01:52:23 AM »

It is very possible that the watch previously discussed was also a gift.  Russians love to give gifts.

 A car dealership owner gave my neighbor, a retired RC priest, a new car when he retired. Father encouraged him to donate it to the church, but the man insisted Father drive it because it was an expression of his appreciation/love.   It would be very offensive to this parishioner if Father did not use his "gift".

All those pigeons didn't seem to be put off by the Breguet.  Now if they had been crows.....
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« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2010, 09:08:02 AM »

It is very possible that the watch previously discussed was also a gift.  Russians love to give gifts.

 A car dealership owner gave my neighbor, a retired RC priest, a new car when he retired. Father encouraged him to donate it to the church, but the man insisted Father drive it because it was an expression of his appreciation/love.   It would be very offensive to this parishioner if Father did not use his "gift".

All those pigeons didn't seem to be put off by the Breguet.  Now if they had been crows.....

Vesting The Patriarch



This went around some time ago when -- horror of horrors - the Patriarch was spotted wearing an extremely expensive watch (which someone had given him).
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« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2010, 03:35:41 PM »

We also need to realise that the Cross and Panagia sets the Patriarch wears are typically in the 100,000 dollar range.  The cross and panagia that Patriarch Alexey gave to Metropolitan Laurus at the Unification service was about 50,000.  Therefore, it is so funny they would point out the watch...
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« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2010, 03:42:12 PM »


Seriously?

$100,000?
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« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2010, 03:54:14 PM »

Fr. Are the Jewelled pieces given to the Patriarch including the Mitre by the Tsars of old ,and a lot of them are antiques...To continually keep making them would be kind of expensive....I would think...
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