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Author Topic: What's up with the disdain for the "Born Again" Experience?  (Read 26780 times) Average Rating: 0
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Marc1152
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« Reply #315 on: September 09, 2009, 03:42:26 PM »



I understand that this is Christianity according to David, but that is a problem too. How about the Church down the road from David? Or the one around the corner from that one?

I try to make up my mind on a case-by-case basis, and I try to be charitable, in case I'm missing or misunderstanding something. But, there are clearly groups who call themselves 'Christian', but who will argue against the Trinity. These, in my humble opinion, are simply not Christians. There is no way that denying the Trinity can be Christian. There are also people whose actions and attitudes leave me in grave doubt that they could possibly be Christian, although of course I cannot see into their souls and therefore cannot judge.

Thanks for your opinion, but that is my point. Your opinion remains just your own personal idea and has no authority, such as The Church and Holy Tradition behind it, although I am sure there are overlaps. These matter, such as determining who are Christians and who are not, should not be left to arm chair musing IMHO.
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Liz
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« Reply #316 on: September 09, 2009, 03:44:46 PM »



I understand that this is Christianity according to David, but that is a problem too. How about the Church down the road from David? Or the one around the corner from that one?

I try to make up my mind on a case-by-case basis, and I try to be charitable, in case I'm missing or misunderstanding something. But, there are clearly groups who call themselves 'Christian', but who will argue against the Trinity. These, in my humble opinion, are simply not Christians. There is no way that denying the Trinity can be Christian. There are also people whose actions and attitudes leave me in grave doubt that they could possibly be Christian, although of course I cannot see into their souls and therefore cannot judge.

Thanks for your opinion, but that is my point. Your opinion remains just your own personal idea and has no authority,

Sure. I wouldn't want to pretend otherwise.

Quote
such as The Church and Holy Tradition behind it, although I am sure there are overlaps. These matter, such as determining who are Christians and who are not, should not be left to arm chair musing IMHO.

It should be left to God, I think. Ultimately, it is left to God, whether or not we decide to anticipate Him in our own, or our own Church's, judgements.
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« Reply #317 on: September 09, 2009, 06:03:09 PM »



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The only way that heresies were condemned in the early Church was to compare the claims that the heretics made (which often originated from scripture itself)

I take issue with this. Heresies do not originate from Scripture. They originate from human error in dealing with Scripture.


My statement implies that the heresies originated from the interpretations that the heretics read into the scripture, not from scripture itself. Sorry for the confusion.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 06:04:19 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Liz
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« Reply #318 on: September 09, 2009, 06:18:07 PM »



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The only way that heresies were condemned in the early Church was to compare the claims that the heretics made (which often originated from scripture itself)

I take issue with this. Heresies do not originate from Scripture. They originate from human error in dealing with Scripture.


My statement implies that the heresies originated from the interpretations that the heretics read into the scripture, not from scripture itself. Sorry for the confusion.



Of course. Apologies. I've been feeling unusually impatient (probably because I'm procrastinating on a paper I really should work on, and consequently have had the computer on far too much of today!), and I should have known better.
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« Reply #319 on: September 09, 2009, 06:26:40 PM »

It's interesting that the Bible does not explicity spell out the doctrine of the Trinity. This is something that was nurtured and developed within the Church councils (by the virtue and guidance of the Holy Spirit, of course). Nor does the scripture itself mention which books are worthy of canonization!

Both of these developments were conducted under the guidance of the Church, by Holy Tradition, and under the power of the Holy Spirit.

Since this is the case, I'm surprised that more protestants don't reject the concept of the Trinity. In addition, why do they accept the scripture that was canonized "within the Church?"

My point being is that protestants pick and choose which parts of Holy Tradition they want to keep, and which ones they do not. Who decides which parts should be kept and which should be rejected? Is it Martin Luther, John Calvin, or some other individual? If the protestants are going to accept the decisions and authority of one or two councils, then they should accept all of them.  The next logical step after that? Why become Orthodox, or course.  Grin
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 06:28:35 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Liz
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« Reply #320 on: September 09, 2009, 06:41:06 PM »

It's interesting that the Bible does not explicity spell out the doctrine of the Trinity. This is something that was nurtured and developed within the Church councils (by the virtue and guidance of the Holy Spirit, of course). Nor does the scripture itself mention which books are worthy of canonization!

Both of these developments were conducted under the guidance of the Church, by Holy Tradition, and under the power of the Holy Spirit.

Since this is the case, I'm surprised that more protestants don't reject the concept of the Trinity. In addition, why do they accept the scripture that was canonized "within the Church?"

My point being is that protestants pick and choose which parts of Holy Tradition they want to keep, and which ones they do not. Who decides which parts should be kept and which should be rejected? Is it Martin Luther, John Calvin, or some other individual? If the protestants are going to accept the decisions and authority of one or two councils, then they should accept all of them.  The next logical step after that? Why become Orthodox, or course.  Grin


Nice try, my friend.   Wink

My Church has its own Traditions (the Articles, for starters). But yes - this is a really interesting point that never occurred to me before. David? What say you? And is this picking and choosing really why people are down on born-again Christians and the like?

(Now I really should accept that paper isn't going to get written, stop posting, and step away from the computer.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 06:41:35 PM by Liz » Logged
Marc1152
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« Reply #321 on: September 09, 2009, 09:14:07 PM »

It should be left to God, I think. Ultimately, it is left to God, whether or not we decide to anticipate Him in our own, or our own Church's, judgements. 
 


And here is a major difference between us. We don't think in terms of My Church, Your Church..Yours' is nice, Mine is nice too.......you're OK, I'm OK.

THE Church, the Body of Christ, is guided by and protected by God. It is the very body of Christ. It's Holy Tradition speaks with a different sort of authority than what you seem to be referring to.
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Liz
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« Reply #322 on: September 10, 2009, 06:55:21 AM »

It should be left to God, I think. Ultimately, it is left to God, whether or not we decide to anticipate Him in our own, or our own Church's, judgements. 
 


And here is a major difference between us. We don't think in terms of My Church, Your Church..Yours' is nice, Mine is nice too.......you're OK, I'm OK.

THE Church, the Body of Christ, is guided by and protected by God. It is the very body of Christ. It's Holy Tradition speaks with a different sort of authority than what you seem to be referring to.

Thanks Marc. People have made this point. It'd be quite rude of me, on an Orthodox forum, to say the decision was up to my Church alone, especially when I'm not convinced at all that yours is in error in all things.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #323 on: September 10, 2009, 12:23:30 PM »

It should be left to God, I think. Ultimately, it is left to God, whether or not we decide to anticipate Him in our own, or our own Church's, judgements. 
 


And here is a major difference between us. We don't think in terms of My Church, Your Church..Yours' is nice, Mine is nice too.......you're OK, I'm OK.

THE Church, the Body of Christ, is guided by and protected by God. It is the very body of Christ. It's Holy Tradition speaks with a different sort of authority than what you seem to be referring to.

Thanks Marc. People have made this point. It'd be quite rude of me, on an Orthodox forum, to say the decision was up to my Church alone, especially when I'm not convinced at all that yours is in error in all things.

 I think you and David are having trouble with breaking out of looking at Christianity through a "Denominational' lens. You want ( understandably) to have a level playing field. We are all denominations of one big "invisible Church". I find it frustrating. Sorry, I'll work on being more patient.
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Liz
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« Reply #324 on: September 10, 2009, 12:35:52 PM »

It should be left to God, I think. Ultimately, it is left to God, whether or not we decide to anticipate Him in our own, or our own Church's, judgements. 
 


And here is a major difference between us. We don't think in terms of My Church, Your Church..Yours' is nice, Mine is nice too.......you're OK, I'm OK.

THE Church, the Body of Christ, is guided by and protected by God. It is the very body of Christ. It's Holy Tradition speaks with a different sort of authority than what you seem to be referring to.

Thanks Marc. People have made this point. It'd be quite rude of me, on an Orthodox forum, to say the decision was up to my Church alone, especially when I'm not convinced at all that yours is in error in all things.

 I think you and David are having trouble with breaking out of looking at Christianity through a "Denominational' lens. You want ( understandably) to have a level playing field. We are all denominations of one big "invisible Church". I find it frustrating. Sorry, I'll work on being more patient.

Sorry ... I don't know what you mean. You don't think we're all one denomination, or you do? And does this have a lot to do with how I express myself on an Orthodox forum?

I think that the Orthodox Church is not entirely wrong. In many ways it is right and I am certain it contains many sincere and holy Christians. But this is not why I referred to 'our' Churches above: I did so because, in my view, it would be rude of me to say, 'my Church - the only true Church don't you know -' on an Orthodox forum.

Incidentally, my partner goes nuts if I say anything to do with his Church is 'nice', because the term has a faintly derogatory, 'damning with faint praise' feel to it. I don't think either Church is 'nice' in that wishy-washy sense.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 12:36:52 PM by Liz » Logged
Ortho_cat
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« Reply #325 on: September 10, 2009, 06:56:55 PM »


Incidentally, my partner goes nuts if I say anything to do with his Church is 'nice', because the term has a faintly derogatory, 'damning with faint praise' feel to it. I don't think either Church is 'nice' in that wishy-washy sense.

Out of curiosity, is your partner Orthodox?
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Liz
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« Reply #326 on: September 10, 2009, 07:04:10 PM »


Incidentally, my partner goes nuts if I say anything to do with his Church is 'nice', because the term has a faintly derogatory, 'damning with faint praise' feel to it. I don't think either Church is 'nice' in that wishy-washy sense.

Out of curiosity, is your partner Orthodox?

I'm beginning to think I should put this info into a permanent disclaimer ... my fault for mentioning him so often. Yes, he's Russian Orthodox.
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