OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 04:43:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What's up with the disdain for the "Born Again" Experience?  (Read 26071 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Cleopas
Bible Thumping, Tongue Talking, Faith Walking Christian
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Charismatic Evangelical
Posts: 445


If I'm my own Pope then I claim infalliablity. Ha!

perfecthart
WWW
« on: July 25, 2009, 08:22:36 AM »

After all, it was Our Lord who said (to Nicodemus) You must be born again.

I understand your view of theosis enough to realize that you focus on finality and glorification as salvation proper. Hence, you do not speak of yourselves as "saved". But, do you deny the need for a personal conversion and/or commitment to Christ, individually and decisively placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God, and willingly embracing His teaching?

Salvation is, as I understand it, 3 fold. I submit that most protestants agree therewith, though they may not express it so. However, generally, when we speak of being saved we speak of the point or moment in one's life where we personally and decisively place faith in Christ for forgiveness and/or redemption.

That said, the 3 fold aspect of our salvation maybe expressed thus:

We are saved.
We are also being saved.
And we will one day be finally saved.

It certainly is not improper, Scripturally speaking, for we Christians to refer to ourselves as saved. Consider the following:

1 Peter 1:1-9 (emphasis and parentheticals mine)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again (which bespeaks initial conversion) unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Who are kept by the power of God  (which bespeaks are yet being saved) through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (which bespeaks final salvation). Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (which bespeaks the properness of referring to ourselves as already saved)


Because of the above passage, and others relative to this subject, I have a real difficulty understanding the drastic difference you guys make over this. Seems like a lot of fuss over a non-issue. Even if the issue is conversion, and the theology underlying it, to decry referring to one's self as saved is in direct opposition to the statements of Scripture, as in the passage above (i.e. " receiving... the salvation of your souls").

Just trying to understand your view a bit more, and maybe perhaps help bridge a difference between us.

Blessings!

Logged

Cleopas
Christopher Hart

"Every one, though born of God in an instant, yet undoubtedly grows by slow degrees” -- John Wesley
DennyB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 218


Moving Toward Orthodoxy


« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2009, 09:05:31 AM »

It's not that I have a disdain for "the Born Again" experience,but in the over-emphasis in the subjective aspect of the experience,growing up in evangelical circles,I have seen many professing faith,who put so much attention on their emotional experience,that they base their "salvation" on these emotions,and not objective facts,and when the emotions disapear so does the reality for them,you see salvation and being born again is ontological in nature,I think that to much of what I call "Calvinism" has been pervasive in evangelical theology,whether they,evangelicals,would like to admit.  I think for the Orthodox,one can "forfeit" their salvation,regardless of their emotional experiences.


To me being born again entails more than just excepting one aspect of Christian Faith,you have to accept the whole ball of wax,it's doctrines,beliefs,and practices,it's not a pick and choose situation
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2009, 09:19:58 AM »

AFAIK, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, being baptized in the Church in the name of the Holy Trinity means being born again. Orthodoxy does not know any other "third" rebirths or revivals, which are subjective emotional experiences (as the poster above has indicated).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 09:21:33 AM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
Cleopas
Bible Thumping, Tongue Talking, Faith Walking Christian
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Charismatic Evangelical
Posts: 445


If I'm my own Pope then I claim infalliablity. Ha!

perfecthart
WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2009, 09:31:47 AM »

AFAIK, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, being baptized in the Church in the name of the Holy Trinity means being born again. Orthodoxy does not know any other "third" rebirths or revivals, which are subjective emotional experiences (as the poster above has indicated).

Even so, why then is it considered improper for those so "born again" not to use the self descriptive expression of "saved"?
Logged

Cleopas
Christopher Hart

"Every one, though born of God in an instant, yet undoubtedly grows by slow degrees” -- John Wesley
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2009, 10:55:30 AM »

AFAIK, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, being baptized in the Church in the name of the Holy Trinity means being born again. Orthodoxy does not know any other "third" rebirths or revivals, which are subjective emotional experiences (as the poster above has indicated).

Even so, why then is it considered improper for those so "born again" not to use the self descriptive expression of "saved"?

Because of the heretical Calvinist dogma of predestination and Once saved, always saved.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cleopas
Bible Thumping, Tongue Talking, Faith Walking Christian
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Charismatic Evangelical
Posts: 445


If I'm my own Pope then I claim infalliablity. Ha!

perfecthart
WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2009, 11:06:39 AM »

Because of the heretical Calvinist dogma of predestination and Once saved, always saved.

Ahhh! Agreed -- such is erroneous.
But isn't refusing to designate one's self as saved throwing the "baby" out with the "bath water"?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 11:09:02 AM by Cleopas » Logged

Cleopas
Christopher Hart

"Every one, though born of God in an instant, yet undoubtedly grows by slow degrees” -- John Wesley
Gkterra
Formerly know as findingfaith
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 214


ακραία αμαρτωλός


« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2009, 11:07:31 AM »

AFAIK, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, being baptized in the Church in the name of the Holy Trinity means being born again. Orthodoxy does not know any other "third" rebirths or revivals, which are subjective emotional experiences (as the poster above has indicated).

Even so, why then is it considered improper for those so "born again" not to use the self descriptive expression of "saved"?

Because of the heretical Calvinist dogma of predestination and Once saved, always saved.

Agreed, simply being born again (baptised) is not a guarantee of salvation. To say I'm saved, IMO is to presuppose you know your judgement beforehand.
Logged

Even satan himself can appear as an Angel of the Lord, and do good works in His name, to distract you from the path of True Righteousness
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2009, 11:30:35 AM »

Does being "born again" mean that you once left Christ and then you accepted Him again?
Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
Cleopas
Bible Thumping, Tongue Talking, Faith Walking Christian
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Charismatic Evangelical
Posts: 445


If I'm my own Pope then I claim infalliablity. Ha!

perfecthart
WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2009, 11:33:31 AM »

Does being "born again" mean that you once left Christ and then you accepted Him again?

Not exactly. BUT, it could.

I am curious as to where your question will further lead.
Admittedly, I am unaware of what it is you may be getting at, if anything.  Undecided Cheesy
Logged

Cleopas
Christopher Hart

"Every one, though born of God in an instant, yet undoubtedly grows by slow degrees” -- John Wesley
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2009, 11:49:14 AM »

Because of the heretical Calvinist dogma of predestination and Once saved, always saved.

Ahhh! Agreed -- such is erroneous.
But isn't refusing to designate one's self as saved throwing the "baby" out with the "bath water"?

It's saying that I am still a work in progress.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Michael L
Priest Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 240



« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2009, 12:01:00 PM »

We can not know that we are really saved until final judgement. As was already pointed out, the Orthodox concept of salvation is that of "Theosis," in which we as individuals grow in holiness becoming closer to God's likeness. This is a life long process that often goes beyond the grave. Evangelical teaching will have you believe that you are saved through a single profession to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and then you a are good to go. This is a false understanding of Christ's Grace and Mercy. While God can save whomever he chooses, we are not guaranteed salvation by a profession of faith. We need to continue to struggle in our faith daily so that by the grace of God we will be saved on the day of judgment. Christ came into this world to show us how to live a Godly life and then died on the cross in order to open the gates of Hades, insuring all of us the opportunity for salvation. However, we must act! We must actively live out our faith! For God can do all things accept one, make us pick up our cross and love Him. That is our choice through free will.

"God became man that we might become God." - St. Athanasius

Enjoy this wonderful video on the topic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAlCze3ZFjA&feature=player_embedded

Logged
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2009, 12:11:27 PM »

I certainly don't disparage the term, "born again". I think, however, that it brings with it distasteful connotations as I think of some of the clowns who have made this claim (i.e. Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Baker, Benny Hinn and a host of other television evangelists who have duped the people and ultimately been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, so to speak). Our Lord spoke to Nicodemus and told him he must be born (again) of water and the Spirit. Interestingly enough, many evangelicals somehow leave out the water in their born again "experience". For them it's just an acceptance of some made-up "four spiritual laws": "Just pray this prayer and you're in!" Our Lord also had something to say about our salvation in John 6 in which we were told:

49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


And of course, many showed they were true Protestants even then:

66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

I mean, after all... surely this man cannot give us His flesh to eat! Surely He must be spiritualizing this! Well... our Lord did not try and correct their misunderstanding by saying, "Oh... come on, folks. I was just using an analogy! Don't leave!" No... He simply turned the the twelve and said:

67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

You won't hear many of the "born again" crowd talk about this. Oh... they'll highlight parts of the chapter that agrees with their preconceived ideas about salvation but the rest of it they'll try and explain away by spiritualizing our Lord's words.

In addition, the "born again" crowd are generally the OSAS group. And it doesn't take very long to go rooting through the scriptures and through Christian writings from the earliest times to debunk that erroneous belief. So... in summation: there's nothing really wrong with the term itself but it carries with it an unfortunate mental picture of folks who really have very little concept of what salvation really means.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 12:15:16 PM by Douglas » Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2009, 12:25:02 PM »

Not exactly. BUT, it could.

I am curious as to where your question will further lead.
Admittedly, I am unaware of what it is you may be getting at, if anything.  Undecided Cheesy
Well, being born again does not mean that you weren't a Christian before. I once left Christ and I came back some years after. But I realized that I was never actually with Him. I was a cultural Christian.
Therefore, when a cultural/passive Christian* realizes what God truly is, he is being born again!

I find the term "born-again" unappealing, because it reminds me of Protestantism. That's all.



*Cultural/passive Christian: one who does not pray (except in some very difficult situations), hasn't been to a church since his baptism (occasionally, on some holidays too), believes that there's nothing wrong with premarital sex and -rarely- makes fun of religion.
Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2009, 12:42:16 PM »

After all, it was Our Lord who said (to Nicodemus) You must be born again.


I am out of touch with the latest scholarship on this term but I thought the Greek word means "from above" rather than "again."   So our Saviour is telling Nicodemus that he must be born from above.
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2009, 10:31:20 PM »

Cleopas,




What did "Born Again" mean in classical Christianity? And when did this understanding change in modern times?


These are the questions you should be asking yourself first.


















JNORM888
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 10:36:35 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,447


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2009, 10:53:08 PM »

Since the orthodox view of salvation is that it is a process (theosis) it would be improper to say that you are "saved." A better way to look at it would be that we are being saved. The term "saved" makes it out like it is a one time event. The reality is that we are daily being "saved" thru the process of theosis.
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2009, 11:08:21 PM »

Quote
After all, it was Our Lord who said (to Nicodemus) You must be born again.

What did this mean "Historically"? And when did the """interpretation""" as found in some protestant sectors change?



Quote
I understand your view of theosis enough to realize that you focus on finality and glorification as salvation proper. Hence, you do not speak of yourselves as "saved".

So what's the problem?



Quote
But, do you deny the need for a personal conversion and/or commitment to Christ,

Why would we deny the need of making our parents faith our own? Something we have to experience, accept, and embrace for ourselves?



 
Quote
individually and decisively placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God,

Why didn't you also mention placing trust in His Incarnation, Life, and Resurrection? You see, this is part of the problem.


 
Quote
and willingly embracing His teaching?

Do you turn the other cheek? Do you forgive 7 X 70? Do you have mercy on others? Do you love your enemies ........ect? If you read the church fathers, then you would of known that we accept Christ's teachings


Quote
Salvation is, as I understand it, 3 fold. I submit that most protestants agree therewith, though they may not express it so. However, generally, when we speak of being saved we speak of the point or moment in one's life where we personally and decisively place faith in Christ for forgiveness and/or redemption.


"being saved" is present tense.........thus you can't use a "past tense" event for a "present tense" situation.



Quote
That said, the 3 fold aspect of our salvation maybe expressed thus:

We are saved.
We are also being saved.
And we will one day be finally saved.

It certainly is not improper, Scripturally speaking, for we Christians to refer to ourselves as saved.

You miss understand what that actually meant. Thus, you should ask yourself what did it mean historically and when did it change?



Quote
Consider the following:

1 Peter 1:1-9 (emphasis and parentheticals mine)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again (which bespeaks initial conversion) unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Who are kept by the power of God  (which bespeaks are yet being saved) through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (which bespeaks final salvation). Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (which bespeaks the properness of referring to ourselves as already saved)


Because of the above passage, and others relative to this subject, I have a real difficulty understanding the drastic difference you guys make over this. Seems like a lot of fuss over a non-issue. Even if the issue is conversion, and the theology underlying it, to decry referring to one's self as saved is in direct opposition to the statements of Scripture, as in the passage above (i.e. " receiving... the salvation of your souls").



If you were really true to scripture, then you would have to say "I am being saved". For salvation is dynamic not static.













JNORM888
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 11:12:35 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2009, 11:23:11 PM »

We can not know that we are really saved until final judgement. As was already pointed out, the Orthodox concept of salvation is that of "Theosis," in which we as individuals grow in holiness becoming closer to God's likeness. This is a life long process that often goes beyond the grave. Evangelical teaching will have you believe that you are saved through a single profession to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and then you a are good to go. This is a false understanding of Christ's Grace and Mercy. While God can save whomever he chooses, we are not guaranteed salvation by a profession of faith. We need to continue to struggle in our faith daily so that by the grace of God we will be saved on the day of judgment. Christ came into this world to show us how to live a Godly life and then died on the cross in order to open the gates of Hades, insuring all of us the opportunity for salvation. However, we must act! We must actively live out our faith! For God can do all things accept one, make us pick up our cross and love Him. That is our choice through free will.

"God became man that we might become God." - St. Athanasius

Enjoy this wonderful video on the topic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAlCze3ZFjA&feature=player_embedded




You know I gotta use this video!  Grin   

 Thanks!   




JNORM888
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2009, 11:40:39 PM »

Because of the heretical Calvinist dogma of predestination and Once saved, always saved.

Ahhh! Agreed -- such is erroneous.
But isn't refusing to designate one's self as saved throwing the "baby" out with the "bath water"?
LOL.  No, it's keeping grace in the baptismal water.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,067


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2009, 03:04:32 AM »

As a former Protestant "Once saved always saved" guy, one verse in particular was my greatest "proof text." It's 1st John 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life. These things I have written you that you may know that you have eternal life." (Emphasis mine.)

My wife was baptized into the Orthodox Church along with me, but she was a bit reluctant. I didn't pressure her, because I know the seriousness of the matter and did not want her to undertake such a significant spiritual action without full assurance of her decision. But our Priest gently guided her in taking that step with our family, so I am grateful. All this is to say that my wife is still very much Protestant minded. She is greatly concerned because our children "do not know for sure that they are going to heaven." I have tried to explain that our children are not living in fear of God's wrath. They trust in the power of the Cross, the efficacy of baptism, and in the unfailing love and grace of God. And as long as they trust in these things and strive to live out their Faith, then they can be confident that their Father in heaven will receive them into His loving arms.

But since I am new to Orthodoxy, I am wondering how we answer Protestants when they cite the above verse as evidence of "eternal security."

Thanks.

Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2009, 11:50:30 AM »

True, we may have this assurance but (always a but, eh!  Wink) this assurance abides with us as long as we cooperate in a synergistic way with Him. In short, we continue to have a role in our salvation... one of trust and obedience. When we started this race, as it were (St Paul's analogy), we did well. But we must run to attain the crown... we must finish the race. We cannot simply begin and then drop out and expect to win the crown awaiting those who do finish. If memory serves St Paul talks about how miserable and foolish it would be for him to admonish others to strive for the crown while he himself drops out of the race. What I'm trying to say (and doing a lousy job of it) is that you can't take a single verse and hang all of your salvation beliefs from it. It's part of a package.

Here's another comparison. The Children of Israel were "safe" from the destructive power of the angel of death PROVIDED they remained INSIDE their homes whose lintels were covered by the blood of the innocent lamb. They were saved as it were (hence your verse... they could have that assurance) BUT there was a provision: remain inside. They had free will to step outside (Lot's wife freely turned back and see what happened to her) and lose their lives. As we look at the Children of Israel journeying from Egypt to the Promised Land, crossing the Red Sea (baptism St Paul tells us), eating manna from heaven (the Eucharist... the bread of immortality) and so forth, we have a picture of our own salvation. Not all entered, however. Only those who remained faithful, trusted and obeyed (like the old Protestant hymn actually).
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2009, 12:00:09 PM »

And as long as they trust in these things and strive to live out their Faith, then they can be confident that their Father in heaven will receive them into His loving arms.

btw: this sentence of yours (see above) is essentially what my ramble was about: the assurance of that verse from 1st John is certainly ours PROVIDED (or as you state: "as long as...") we "trust in these things AND strive to live out our faith..." The assurance of salvation goes hand in hand with the striving and working out on our part. And what you have said in addition to what I posted earlier is found in "other verses" of scripture. So, I would simply answer your Protestant who quotes such a verse that we can't take the bible piece-meal and expect to find truth. It needs to be read and understood in its entirety.
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2009, 12:35:51 PM »

But isn't refusing to designate one's self as saved throwing the "baby" out with the "bath water"?
No, because the baptismal water stays with the baby their whole life. Grin

But seriously, we're not throwing anything out. Our idea of being "born again" predates yours by centuries. You reject our understanding of it, not the other way around.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,874


« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2009, 01:23:19 PM »

Of course, there is much theological variation among Protestants so I am only focusing on the variation in this thread. I think an unfortunate observable manifestation seen from outside the "born again" Protestant perspective is the concept of claiming to know who is "saved" or "unsaved" (at least by a fair number of "born again" Christians & not directed at the OP personally). Biblically stated  mysteries of the prerogative of God (like St. Paul mentions in Romans 2:11-16 & 9:14-18 & the parable of the sheep & goats in Matthew 25:31-46) seem lost here but are always preached & experienced in the liturgical calander of the Orthodox Church. Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit works among many non Orthodox Christians & often see my own wretchedness compared to them.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Dan-Romania
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 746


« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2009, 02:29:42 PM »

To be born from above we must be born from water and from Spirit.If we are not born from above we can`t see the kingdom of Heaven.This happens at the moment of the baptise the door of entering the Church , where we are adopted by a mother and a father a spiritual mother and a spiritual father , godfathers , and we receive a guardian angel.Through baptise and chrismation.At baptise we receive the grace necessary for our spiritual guidance and wich is enough for us to see the kingdom, receive Christ into our life,follow Him, confess Him ,and to repant for your sins.Also at baptize we are removed by the guilt of the Original Sin.

From St. Diadochos of Photiki (The Philokalia Vol. 1; Faber and Faber pg. 279):
"... from the instant we are baptized, grace is hidden in the depths of the intellect, concealing its presence even from the perception of the intellect itself. When someone begins, however, to love God with full resolve, then in a mysterious way, by means of intellectual perception, grace communicates something of its riches to the soul. Then, if he really wants to hold fast to this discovery, he joyfully starts longing to be rid of all his temporal goods, so as to acquire the field in which he has found the hidden treasure of life (cf. Mt. 13:44). This is because, when someone rids himself of all worldly riches, he discovers the place where the grace of God is hidden. For as the soul advances, divine grace more and more reveals itself to the intellect."

Logged

This user no longer posts here.
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,806


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2009, 04:17:05 PM »

Obviously I agree with what Cleopas wrote at the start of this thread. I would like to add a few comments, after reading on down the thread.

1) You must separate the Calvinist teaching that salvation cannot be lost from the belief that all Evangelicals (Calvinist, Arminian or whatever) have in common, that one can know one is saved (in the sense explained by Cleopas) now. The question of whether it is possible to fall away from that condition, to lose one's salvation, is an entirely different and separate issue. It seems to me that every time the matter arises in these various threads, you good Orthodox people entwine the two issues, and in disagreeing with the one, you believe you are also disagreeing with the other. You may of course genuinely disagree with both, but these would still be two unconnected disagreements.

2) You are right that we leave out the "of water" bit from the formula "born of water and the Spirit", and the matter was discussed at length on a previous thread when we got on to the meaning of 'eis' (translated 'for') in the Nicene Creed: one baptism for the remission of sins. It might be helpful towards mutual understanding if I say (in addition to my outpourings on that previous thread) that we Evangelicals see that phrase from the Creed as an instance of synecdoche, taking a part for the whole. The actual event is repentance+faith+baptism+regeneration, but in the scriptures any one of those words can be used to describe the entire event (synecdoche being the use of part for the whole - like "all hands on deck" (one really wants the entire sailor)).

Also, I believe it is true that baptism carries much more significance, and is a good deal more sacramental, than most Baptists-in-the-pew realise, and than is usually taught from our pulpits. Nonetheless, if you read serious Baptist theology you can find a much more vital awareness of the sacramental nature of baptism as a real means of grace.

If you also read Romans 6, you will see that people in the NT had been baptised without understanding its full meaning, so we are at least in good company!

3) As I have written elsewhere, it is because you and we use the word 'saved' differently that we Protestants tend to believe you Orthodox are not saved people (until we get to know some of you) - because that is what you tell us yourselves! Again, a case of misunderstanding each other's use of words.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 04:19:04 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2009, 06:02:24 PM »

1) You must separate the Calvinist teaching that salvation cannot be lost from the belief that all Evangelicals (Calvinist, Arminian or whatever) have in common, that one can know one is saved (in the sense explained by Cleopas) now. The question of whether it is possible to fall away from that condition, to lose one's salvation, is an entirely different and separate issue. It seems to me that every time the matter arises in these various threads, you good Orthodox people entwine the two issues, and in disagreeing with the one, you believe you are also disagreeing with the other. You may of course genuinely disagree with both, but these would still be two unconnected disagreements.
I think we see one flowing from the other. The idea that one can know whether they are saved is requisite for knowing whether one can lose that salvation. Calvinism does not even make sense to one who does not believe they can know whether they are saved. Perhaps that is why we do tend to intertwine these beliefs.

I must say, however, that we maintain a difference between personal knowledge of salvation and the possibility of knowledge of salvation. In other words, I may not know whether I am saved, but I cannot say that no one can know whether they are saved. Indeed, there have been a few who have known this. You will recognize the thief crucified with Christ as one of them; we have several others we count as saints which will probably be unknown to you. So certainly, it is possible to know of one's own salvation, but it's not immediate and it's not known to everyone--which is how our belief differs from yours.

As for the idea of whether one can lose salvation, if I don't know whether I had it to begin with, how can I know whether I have lost it? Certainly we can say that it could be that at a given point in time I may have been saved, but through nefarious actions I now do not have that chance. Yet through my repentance I may be at that point again. Salvation is a journey, and it is just as likely to go backwards as forwards. So the real question is in relation to what? I may now not be living as well as I previously have, but how do I know if I was saved back then? We prefer not to judge this.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2009, 08:46:42 PM »

I knew this southern baptist waitress that was born again,and she believed in once saved always saved, she didn't live a very good christian life ,,She would curse worst than a sailor had a very sort fuse, played the lottery everyday ,,if the lottery clerk made a mistake on her chosen numbers such foul language she would spew at him in anger..
I happen to be in the store buying smokes and guess what ,,i hear sussie going balistic towards the clerk for making a mistake on her number choices...

I did bring up to her how shes acting toward people,which wasn't very christian...she responded to me thats alright once saved always saved...She had a temper ,,God forgive her soul.... she passed away from cancer ......
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2009, 09:13:52 PM »

Obviously I agree with what Cleopas wrote at the start of this thread. I would like to add a few comments, after reading on down the thread.

1) You must separate the Calvinist teaching that salvation cannot be lost from the belief that all Evangelicals (Calvinist, Arminian or whatever) have in common, that one can know one is saved (in the sense explained by Cleopas) now. The question of whether it is possible to fall away from that condition, to lose one's salvation, is an entirely different and separate issue. It seems to me that every time the matter arises in these various threads, you good Orthodox people entwine the two issues, and in disagreeing with the one, you believe you are also disagreeing with the other. You may of course genuinely disagree with both, but these would still be two unconnected disagreements.

2) You are right that we leave out the "of water" bit from the formula "born of water and the Spirit", and the matter was discussed at length on a previous thread when we got on to the meaning of 'eis' (translated 'for') in the Nicene Creed: one baptism for the remission of sins. It might be helpful towards mutual understanding if I say (in addition to my outpourings on that previous thread) that we Evangelicals see that phrase from the Creed as an instance of synecdoche, taking a part for the whole. The actual event is repentance+faith+baptism+regeneration, but in the scriptures any one of those words can be used to describe the entire event (synecdoche being the use of part for the whole - like "all hands on deck" (one really wants the entire sailor)).

Also, I believe it is true that baptism carries much more significance, and is a good deal more sacramental, than most Baptists-in-the-pew realise, and than is usually taught from our pulpits. Nonetheless, if you read serious Baptist theology you can find a much more vital awareness of the sacramental nature of baptism as a real means of grace.

If you also read Romans 6, you will see that people in the NT had been baptised without understanding its full meaning, so we are at least in good company!

3) As I have written elsewhere, it is because you and we use the word 'saved' differently that we Protestants tend to believe you Orthodox are not saved people (until we get to know some of you) - because that is what you tell us yourselves! Again, a case of misunderstanding each other's use of words.

The two are related. You maynot want them to be related but they are.


And in regards to the issue of Baptism and the creed.......all I have to say is.......what did the signers of the creed believe about "Baptism"?



Also, your view of "saved" is a later devolopment that hinges on certain things that happened in the past. It all starts with Saint Augustine in his later years with his Election to regeneration and election to final perseverence view.

With Luther's re-formulation of it with his faith alone view, and how you can only loose salvation if you loose faith.

John Calvin re-formulated it differently, for him, there was only an "election to regeneration" view and since calvinists developed a view called the "golden chain", to them.....all those who are regenerated will persevere to the end. So if you don't persevere to the end.......then to them, that means you were never "saved" in the first place. Thus P.O.T.S. and it's run away sister O.S.A.S. the two views of 100% absolute assurance and O.S.A.S. are related, ......it is by no mistake that this view is mostly coming from O.S.A.S. advocates.








JNORM888
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 09:16:59 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,067


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2009, 01:01:34 AM »

I knew this southern baptist waitress that was born again,and she believed in once saved always saved, she didn't live a very good christian life ,,She would curse worst than a sailor had a very sort fuse, played the lottery everyday ,,if the lottery clerk made a mistake on her chosen numbers such foul language she would spew at him in anger..
I happen to be in the store buying smokes and guess what ,,i hear sussie going balistic towards the clerk for making a mistake on her number choices...

I did bring up to her how shes acting toward people,which wasn't very christian...she responded to me thats alright once saved always saved...She had a temper ,,God forgive her soul.... she passed away from cancer ......


"Lord have mercy."


Stashko:

I remember a woman going into an abortion clinic to have an abortion who cussed me up and down saying, "I'm a born again Christian! And don't you know that 'once saved, always saved' motherf#$@er!"

On a personal note: This is not a statement of judgment, for I too have my vices. But since this poor woman you mentioned passed away from cancer, I do hope you give up the "smokes." Smiley

Selam
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 01:02:37 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,067


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2009, 01:06:38 AM »

True, we may have this assurance but (always a but, eh!  Wink) this assurance abides with us as long as we cooperate in a synergistic way with Him. In short, we continue to have a role in our salvation... one of trust and obedience. When we started this race, as it were (St Paul's analogy), we did well. But we must run to attain the crown... we must finish the race. We cannot simply begin and then drop out and expect to win the crown awaiting those who do finish. If memory serves St Paul talks about how miserable and foolish it would be for him to admonish others to strive for the crown while he himself drops out of the race. What I'm trying to say (and doing a lousy job of it) is that you can't take a single verse and hang all of your salvation beliefs from it. It's part of a package.

Here's another comparison. The Children of Israel were "safe" from the destructive power of the angel of death PROVIDED they remained INSIDE their homes whose lintels were covered by the blood of the innocent lamb. They were saved as it were (hence your verse... they could have that assurance) BUT there was a provision: remain inside. They had free will to step outside (Lot's wife freely turned back and see what happened to her) and lose their lives. As we look at the Children of Israel journeying from Egypt to the Promised Land, crossing the Red Sea (baptism St Paul tells us), eating manna from heaven (the Eucharist... the bread of immortality) and so forth, we have a picture of our own salvation. Not all entered, however. Only those who remained faithful, trusted and obeyed (like the old Protestant hymn actually).

Thank you Douglas! Far from doing a lousy job, you articulated this very well. I think I will use your ideas in the book I'm currently working on.

Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2009, 02:50:37 AM »

I knew this southern baptist waitress that was born again,and she believed in once saved always saved, she didn't live a very good christian life ,,She would curse worst than a sailor had a very sort fuse, played the lottery everyday ,,if the lottery clerk made a mistake on her chosen numbers such foul language she would spew at him in anger..
I happen to be in the store buying smokes and guess what ,,i hear sussie going balistic towards the clerk for making a mistake on her number choices...

I did bring up to her how shes acting toward people,which wasn't very christian...she responded to me thats alright once saved always saved...She had a temper ,,God forgive her soul.... she passed away from cancer ......


"Lord have mercy."


Stashko:

I remember a woman going into an abortion clinic to have an abortion who cussed me up and down saying, "I'm a born again Christian! And don't you know that 'once saved, always saved' motherf#$@er!"

On a personal note: This is not a statement of judgment, for I too have my vices. But since this poor woman you mentioned passed away from cancer, I do hope you give up the "smokes." Smiley

Selam


I don't remember if she smoked or not, but that wasn't the cause of her cancer she had cancer in her womb...Poor thing God Rest her Soul.... very angy woman....
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2009, 12:02:23 PM »

I don't really have anything to add to this discussion, partly because Douglas' explanation was spot on, and quite Biblical too boot. Smiley However I would also like to add that there are PLENTY of Baptists at least in America, who are also Calvinists, and High Calvinists at that. Charles Stanley, (whom I actually enjoy listening to, and learn from to this day, despite his "eternal security" theology) is one of the most famous. He was president of the Southern Baptist conference for a number of years, and is an outspoken OSAS person. Not trying to disparage him, because I think he's a great speaker and teacher, and he's practical about life, but he's just a famous example of a Baptist who is a OSAS believer. It's quite a common belief in the Southern Baptist conference, but maybe not so much in other Baptist Churches. Anyways, they do exist, at least here in the States.
Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,806


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2009, 01:18:04 PM »

they do exist, at least here in the States.

And here in Britain too.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,067


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2009, 07:44:06 PM »

I don't really have anything to add to this discussion, partly because Douglas' explanation was spot on, and quite Biblical too boot. Smiley However I would also like to add that there are PLENTY of Baptists at least in America, who are also Calvinists, and High Calvinists at that. Charles Stanley, (whom I actually enjoy listening to, and learn from to this day, despite his "eternal security" theology) is one of the most famous. He was president of the Southern Baptist conference for a number of years, and is an outspoken OSAS person. Not trying to disparage him, because I think he's a great speaker and teacher, and he's practical about life, but he's just a famous example of a Baptist who is a OSAS believer. It's quite a common belief in the Southern Baptist conference, but maybe not so much in other Baptist Churches. Anyways, they do exist, at least here in the States.

When I was "born again" at age 19, I joined Charles Stanley's Church in Atlanta. Like you, I still respect him and enjoy his preaching and teaching on the radio. Charles Stanley is probably what some would call a 4 point Calvinist. He doesn't hold to the limited atonement postition of the hard core Calvinists. But I do agree that most Southern Baptists are adherents of the OSAS position.

Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,983


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2009, 07:57:02 PM »

Charles Stanley, (whom I actually enjoy listening to, and learn from to this day, despite his "eternal security" theology) is one of the most famous.
I totally agree with you NP.  When I'm not listening to Ancient Faith Radio, I love listening to Charles Stanley (though I choose not to as much as I would like). 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Cleopas
Bible Thumping, Tongue Talking, Faith Walking Christian
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Charismatic Evangelical
Posts: 445


If I'm my own Pope then I claim infalliablity. Ha!

perfecthart
WWW
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2009, 08:59:40 AM »

Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts.

However, permit to re ask the first question in the OP, as it seems to have been largely neglected in the discussion that has followed the larger issue touched on here.
As I said then ...

I understand your view of theosis enough to realize that you focus on finality and glorification as salvation proper. Hence, you do not speak of yourselves as "saved". But, do you deny the need for a personal conversion and/or commitment to Christ, individually and decisively placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God, and willingly embracing His teaching?
Logged

Cleopas
Christopher Hart

"Every one, though born of God in an instant, yet undoubtedly grows by slow degrees” -- John Wesley
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,152


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2009, 09:20:03 AM »

But, do you deny the need for a personal conversion and/or commitment to Christ, individually and decisively placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God, and willingly embracing His teaching?

My dear Cleopas, one of the most oft-repeated passages of Orthodox liturgical content (at just about every litany, in every liturgical service) is this: Commemorating our most-holy, most-pure, most-blessed Mistress, the Mother of God and Ever-virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another, and all our lives, to Christ our God.
Logged
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,874


« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2009, 09:21:47 AM »

Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts.

However, permit to re ask the first question in the OP, as it seems to have been largely neglected in the discussion that has followed the larger issue touched on here.
As I said then ...

I understand your view of theosis enough to realize that you focus on finality and glorification as salvation proper. Hence, you do not speak of yourselves as "saved". But, do you deny the need for a personal conversion and/or commitment to Christ, individually and decisively placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God, and willingly embracing His teaching?
No, of course not. This is part of our ongoing commitment as Orthodox Christians and lived out by prayer, fasting, alms giving. Commitment to the sacraments in confession and the Eucharist etc.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 09:24:41 AM by recent convert » Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,806


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2009, 10:22:04 AM »

Whilst not expressing disagreement in principle with what you folk are saying, allow me to suggest that you are not specifically addressing yourself to Cleopas's question, when he asks whether, in your turning to Christ and committing yourself to Him, you are consciously placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God.

That, I think is the crux (no pun intended) of what Cleopas is trying to penetrate in his understanding of your concept of conversion or commitment.

Cleopas of course may correct me if I am the one who has misunderstood his inquiry.

There is a saying among us that we "contribute nothing to our salvation except the sin from which we need to be saved". We place all our trust only in the sufficient work of Christ in his life, death, resurrection and present intercession. Having, however, freely received salvation in this way - by trust in Christ's achievement - we then work out our salvation with fear and trembling, as the saying goes, desiring to please the God we love, to express our gratitude for his gift, and to obey him whom we have taken as our life-long Lord.

The people you cite who claim to be born of God but whose mouths are like sewers, whose lives are violent and dishonest, not because of an occasional fall into sin but as a sustained characterisitc way of life with which they are quite happy, are freaks and nutters who are walking in self-deception and blindness. But surely you also have such in your Church? Baptists have no monopoly on hypocrites.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 10:31:33 AM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2009, 10:25:17 AM »

Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts.

However, permit to re ask the first question in the OP, as it seems to have been largely neglected in the discussion that has followed the larger issue touched on here.
As I said then ...

I understand your view of theosis enough to realize that you focus on finality and glorification as salvation proper. Hence, you do not speak of yourselves as "saved". But, do you deny the need for a personal conversion and/or commitment to Christ, individually and decisively placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God, and willingly embracing His teaching?

Not at all. We each must act upon the faith of those who brought us for baptism. In short, our Lord has no grandchildren; I will not ride to heaven on the coat tail of my father's faith. So... in being faithful to the Lord (as best I can) I respond to the admonition: with fear of God with FAITH and LOVE draw near as I receive the Eucharist ... as I receive the Lord in each liturgy. My salvation is ongoing as it were.
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2009, 10:29:02 AM »

I predict this discussion will veer into the Faith-Works debate. Oops, it sort of has whilst I was typing.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2009, 10:30:00 AM »

do you deny the need for a personal conversion and/or commitment to Christ, individually and decisively placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God, and willingly embracing His teaching?
We certainly do commit our lives to Christ in this way. But we also go beyond this and commit each other to Christ as well. As J.J. Abrams put it, "Live together; die alone." Smiley Individually, each of us places our faith in Christ; but if that faith remains individual, it will not stand. We need each other to keep that faith growing. Make sense?
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,874


« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2009, 10:54:04 AM »

Whilst not expressing disagreement in principle with what you folk are saying, allow me to suggest that you are not specifically addressing yourself to Cleopas's question, when he asks whether, in your turning to Christ and committing yourself to Him, you are consciously placing trust in His atoning work as the basis for reconciliation with God.

That, I think is the crux (no pun intended) of what Cleopas is trying to penetrate in his understanding of your concept of conversion or commitment.

Cleopas of course may correct me if I am the one who has misunderstood his inquiry.

There is a saying among us that we "contribute nothing to our salvation except the sin from which we need to be saved". We place all our trust only in the sufficient work of Christ in his life, death, resurrection and present intercession. Having, however, freely received salvation in this way - by trust in Christ's achievement - we then work out our salvation with fear and trembling, as the saying goes, desiring to please the God we love, to express our gratitude for his gift, and to obey him whom we have taken as our life-long Lord.

The people you cite who claim to be born of God but whose mouths are like sewers, whose lives are violent and dishonest, not because of an occasional fall into sin but as a sustained characterisitc way of life with which they are quite happy, are freaks and nutters who are walking in self-deception and blindness. But surely you also have such in your Church? Baptists have no monopoly on hypocrites.
I think part of this is due to the invisible church understanding among many Protestants while we see Christ in a visible church united to the cloud of heavenly witness in the Divine Liturgy which must be our basis to worship of God "in spirit and truth" (per John 4:24). To this we accompany our individual commitment to Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior because this is according to His authority (He is our high priest). To us the Protestant tendency is more individualistic (& more intellectualized) and not having enough common liturgical experience to preserve proper unity among the faithful. I want to add that this that we as Orthodox can fail by sleepwalking in our worship and that the Holy Spirit is with many Protestants (like Billy Graham) so my post may have some critique but no disparagement of Protestantism is intended and hope I am making proper sense too.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2009, 10:55:05 AM »


When I was "born again" at age 19, I joined Charles Stanley's Church in Atlanta. Like you, I still respect him and enjoy his preaching and teaching on the radio. Charles Stanley is probably what some would call a 4 point Calvinist. He doesn't hold to the limited atonement postition of the hard core Calvinists. But I do agree that most Southern Baptists are adherents of the OSAS position.

I had forgotten that there were so many variations of Calvinism, and you're right, Mr. Stanley doesn't seem to hold to the limited atonement theory. I've never heard him say or imply such a thing. Anyways, that's interesting you were a member of his Church. Thank you for sharing that. Now I can say I've "typed at" someone who used to attend his Church. Cheesy

Logged
Tags: Protestant Christianity 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.167 seconds with 72 queries.