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Author Topic: Oriental Orthodox and Oriental Catholics  (Read 2718 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mexican
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« on: November 18, 2003, 11:44:47 PM »

I was informed that in addition to the Coptic and Syriac Non-Chalcedonean Orthodox Churches, there are also Oriental Catholic branches that are supposed to follow the same liturgy of their Orthodox counterparts.

Aklie wrote me in another post that in North Ethiopia, the Ghe'ez Catholic Church is very eastern and follows the same Orthodox liturgy except that the name of the Pope is mentioned in the dyphtics.

But what about the other Churches? I've seen pictures of the Coptic Catholic Patriarch and he seems very Latinized? Are the Uniat Copts in Egypt latinized too?

How are the relations between the Orthodox Churches and their Oriental Catholic branches? Are they good, is there "proselitysm" or something like that?

I am told that in the case of the Armenians there are very good relations between Catholics and Apostolic Armenians, such as intercommunion in some places.
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SamB
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2003, 12:48:58 AM »

It is to my limited understanding that the Oriental Catholics have latinised much and that when it comes to monasticism they are sadly lacking.

How is Aklie doing?  Please send him my most profound apologies for delaying the delivery of his prayerbook, and inform him that I will get down to that.

In IC XC
Samer
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The Caffeinator
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2003, 12:39:07 PM »

This is way over my head, but I believe the Armenian Catholics belong to the Oriental Orthodox, to make matters confusing.

And apart from Oriental Catholics, there are Chaldean Catholics who intercommune with the Assyrian Church of the East. This has sparked some controversy among Catholics, because the Chaldean Church lacks an institution narrative. IIRC.
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The young fogey
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2003, 03:27:28 PM »

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This is way over my head, but I believe the Armenian Catholics belong to the Oriental Orthodox, to make matters confusing.

What? I don't think so - the Armenian Catholic Church is under the Pope, not the Catholicos of the Armenian Apostolic Church in Etchmiazdin, the other Catholicos in Cilicia or any other Oriental Orthodox patriarch.

Quote
And apart from Oriental Catholics, there are Chaldean Catholics who intercommune with the Assyrian Church of the East. This has sparked some controversy among Catholics, because the Chaldean Church lacks an institution narrative. IIRC.


Most interesting that. The Chaldean Catholic Church is the only Eastern Catholic church in the world that is bigger than its parent, the Assyrian Church (Church of the East, formerly known as Nestorian), and so has a good claim to be the Church of Iraq.

The Assyrian Church's liturgy indeed lacks an institution narrative but I think is also the oldest eucharistic liturgy still in use. It's also in a form of Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke.

The Catholic Church came out with a curious statement a while back that said basically 1) it is forced to acknowledge that the Assyrian Liturgy of SS. Mari and Addai is 'valid' as is (given the rite's antiquity, it could do nothing else), 2) that Chaldean Catholics are free to use it in its pure form without the tacked-on institution narrative they'd been using (an example of latinization, the needless bastardization of the Eastern Rites by some Catholics) and 3) in a weird instance of passive-aggressive doubletalk, 'warmly inviting' those in question to use the institution narrative.

I reckon that really means 'OK, your Mass is real, but we really don't like it and wish you wouldn't use it (or else)'.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2003, 03:30:49 PM by Serge » Logged

Linus7
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« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2003, 03:34:18 PM »

Interesting, Serge.

I must admit I don't know much about either the Chaldeans or the Assyrians.

How have they backed off their original Nestorianism so that they are able to come under the Chalcedonian RCC and the Pope?
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2003, 03:59:02 PM »

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How have they backed off their original Nestorianism so that they are able to come under the Chalcedonian RCC and the Pope?

I think they had to sign some kind of profession of faith specifically renouncing Nestorianism.

But now, of course, those in the know - unliberal Catholic and Orthodox ecumenists who are keen on Catholic-Eastern Churches relations - say that the Assyrians weren't really guilty of Nestorianism all along.
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Linus7
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2003, 04:07:17 PM »

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How have they backed off their original Nestorianism so that they are able to come under the Chalcedonian RCC and the Pope?

I think they had to sign some kind of profession of faith specifically renouncing Nestorianism.

But now, of course, those in the know - unliberal Catholic and Orthodox ecumenists who are keen on Catholic-Eastern Churches relations - say that the Assyrians weren't really guilty of Nestorianism all along.

Oh!

Well, that's good to know.

I have to confess that it is often difficult to sort out the christological controversies of the 5th century.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear they have renounced Nestorianism, which, as I have seen it defined, seems particularly insidious to me.
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The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Tags: Oriental Catholic Chaldean 
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