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deusveritasest
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« Reply #135 on: January 26, 2010, 05:03:45 PM »

Well, personally, I will always look first and foremost to the ancient Faith of Ethiopia.

How prevalent is this kind of identification among OO? Does people tend to identify through their local churches?

It appears to be fairly prevalent, yes.
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« Reply #136 on: January 29, 2010, 04:22:53 AM »

Well, personally, I will always look first and foremost to the ancient Faith of Ethiopia.

How prevalent is this kind of identification among OO? Does people tend to identify through their local churches?

It appears to be fairly prevalent, yes.

OK. That feels kind a weird since as for myself I am identifying first as an EO and then as a Finnish Orthoodx but then again the OO traditions are much more diverse.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:23:20 AM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #137 on: January 29, 2010, 04:39:04 AM »

Well, personally, I will always look first and foremost to the ancient Faith of Ethiopia.

How prevalent is this kind of identification among OO? Does people tend to identify through their local churches?

It appears to be fairly prevalent, yes.

OK. That feels kind a weird since as for myself I am identifying first as an EO and then as a Finnish Orthoodx but then again the OO traditions are much more diverse.

I take the same approach. I was Baptized in a parish of the Greek Archdiocese. I would identify primarily as "Eastern Orthodox" in so far as people could understand that, providing the jurisdiction if they did not or if they questioned further. I transferred later to the OCA and took the same approach. Now I'm exploring OOy, but with no particular attachment to any one of the jurisdictions yet.
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« Reply #138 on: March 18, 2010, 10:52:10 PM »

The Orthodox church is the true church established by Christ, this is true.  Although I do not feel qualified to give reasons, as I am just learning them myself.  one thing that made me love Orthodoxy over Catholicism was the icons in the church.  Christ was a middle-eastern Jew.  he did not have blue eyes, skin the shade of milk, and blonde hair, like depicted in Catholic statuary.  the same goes for mis mother, the Theotokos.  this was a huge wake-up call for me, that Orthodoxy preserves Christ'a identity correctly.

just a thought to ponder Smiley
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« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2010, 10:53:58 PM »

Well, personally, I will always look first and foremost to the ancient Faith of Ethiopia.

How prevalent is this kind of identification among OO? Does people tend to identify through their local churches?

It appears to be fairly prevalent, yes.

OK. That feels kind a weird since as for myself I am identifying first as an EO and then as a Finnish Orthoodx but then again the OO traditions are much more diverse.

if this is so, why do you have a picture of the pope as your avatar?  this has struck me as odd for a while.
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« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2010, 08:15:16 PM »

It has been a while since my first post on this forum. I am still a flip flopper. But something has drastically changed in my life. I went to my first Divine Liturgy recently. Now, before you throw a party, I have to tell you that it was a Byzantine Catholic DL. But, I feel it merits a mentioning as it has profoundly rekindled my pull towards Eastern Orthodoxy. Plus, I'd like to give my opinion on my experience as well as get some answers.  Smiley

First impression: I loved it. I loved the incense, the constant singing, the beautiful prayers, the icons, the intimacy, the "earthiness" of the priest, the sense of worship, the kindness of everyone there, the lack of abuse, the lack of shorts or Metallica t-shirts the lack of cleavage and guitars, etc. and etc. and etc.

The Church was Slavonic. Was the DL the same as one I would find in an EO Church? What is the oldest Liturgy in use today or are they all the same across Eastern Orthodoxy?

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« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2010, 08:58:52 PM »

It has been a while since my first post on this forum. I am still a flip flopper. But something has drastically changed in my life. I went to my first Divine Liturgy recently. Now, before you throw a party, I have to tell you that it was a Byzantine Catholic DL. But, I feel it merits a mentioning as it has profoundly rekindled my pull towards Eastern Orthodoxy. Plus, I'd like to give my opinion on my experience as well as get some answers.  Smiley

The Ukrainian Catholic liturgies (I would guess they are in Slavonic) are a truncated version of the ones the Russians use, although it's nearly identical to the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (or Carpatho-Ruthenians if you prefer). My experience is that the standard Orthodox liturgies are about 15 to 30 minutes longer than their Eastern Catholic counterparts ( the Russians are nearly two hours - from "Blessed is the kingdom" to final blessing).

The Ukrainian Catholics here were inconsistent - not all the parishes featured Vespers, although the practice here has returned to a few. In some parishes there were no subdeacons - so the priest did almost everything by himself except when distributing communion. (I can see how, in the Latin West, the subdeacon's role was subsumed by altar boys and eventually disappeared.) I'm hazarding a guess many of these parishes used "pre-cut" Lamb and most did not distribute antidoron after the liturgy. They also spent more time around the altar and less time incensing the faithful, but that depended on the parish.

Believe it or not, these were actually minor quibbles with me - I was stunned with one sermon which was nearly all based on St. Augustine and the popes (a more authentically Catholic sermon than  years of Latin ones) but which had nary a reference to Eastern fathers, although the church bulletin actually reposted material from Orthodox websites! There was some communion weirdness during the H1N1 outbreak which infected both Roman and Eastern Churches here.

I think Ukrainians have a split identity, having a position which is analagous somewhat to those of Anglo-Catholics - "Roman Catholics" or "Anglo Catholics" in communion with Canterbury but who look either beyond the Tiber or to pre-Reformation for their theology and praxis. Oddly enough, I got acquainted with one lady who was a convert from Anglo-Catholicism (C of E) to the UGCC.

Attending these was not a huge cultural shock for me, despite being entirely in a foreign tongue. I've attended quite a few Latin masses, with a profound preference for those which are sung. Once you learn the basic three or four responses (to you O Lord, Lord have Mercy etc...) and can follow along the basic parts (high points: Trisagion, Cherubic hymn) attending these becomes normal. Hands down, no comparison with Novus Ordo, and my favourite liturgies, ever, in my 25 year experience in the Roman Catholic church.

After my experience with the Ukrainians I attended a few Russian Orthodox services but have spent most of my time with the Greeks and Antiochians. The music is quite different but you don't have to worry about things cut back or missing. I think the parts that I miss the most about the Greek Catholics were the liturgical music, but they use some Russian style music at the Antiochian parish, and I've REALLY taken a liking to Byzantine music.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 09:02:28 PM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2010, 09:07:09 PM »

The Ukrainian Catholic liturgies (I would guess they are in Slavonic) are a truncated version of the ones the Russians use, although it's nearly identical to the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (or Carpatho-Ruthenians if you prefer). My experience is that the standard Orthodox liturgies are about 15 to 30 minutes longer than their Eastern Catholic counterparts ( the Russians are nearly two hours - from "Blessed is the kingdom" to final blessing).

This DL was about an hour and a half.

Quote
In some parishes there were no subdeacons - so the priest did almost everything by himself except when distributing communion. (I can see how, in the Latin West, the subdeacon's role was subsumed by altar boys and eventually disappeared.) I'm hazarding a guess many of these parishes used "pre-cut" Lamb and most did not distribute antidoron after the liturgy. They also spent more time around the altar and less time incensing the faithful, but that depended on the parish.

I think there was one subdeacon and one "alter boy." There was antidoron given out at the end of the Liturgy. I was incensed as more at this Liturgy than even at the Tridentine Mass.
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« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2010, 09:23:47 PM »

Wow, you've got even more than those that the Toronto region. Services here were in the 75 minute mark. I'm going to guess what you attended is even closer to the Orthodox "norm"!

There is one distinction between the Anglo-Catholics and their relationship to Rome, and those of Eastern Catholics to Orthodox. The Anglo-Catholics have a better liturgy and hymnody than their Novus Ordo Roman Catholic counterparts... I think what is going on here is that the Anglo-Catholic are focusing on their own liturgical heritage and traditions, while the Romans would rather practice whatever the pope or bishop imposes on them (even when it is contrary to tradition). "Papal authority vs tradition" - while couched in the context of post-Vatican II reforms, goes back a lot farther than 1962, yet is a very scary equation. It is a dagger aimed at the heart of the post-Vatican II conundrum.

In my time among the Orthodox, I've found several converts who briefly attended Anglo-Catholic (Church of England) parishes, before going over to Orthodoxy. They are kind of half-way hosues, just like the Eastern Catholic churches often operate as such to inquirers looking for "more".
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 09:25:14 PM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #144 on: July 15, 2010, 10:20:26 PM »

It has been a while since my first post on this forum. I am still a flip flopper. But something has drastically changed in my life. I went to my first Divine Liturgy recently. Now, before you throw a party, I have to tell you that it was a Byzantine Catholic DL. But, I feel it merits a mentioning as it has profoundly rekindled my pull towards Eastern Orthodoxy. Plus, I'd like to give my opinion on my experience as well as get some answers.  Smiley

The Ukrainian Catholic liturgies (I would guess they are in Slavonic) are a truncated version of the ones the Russians use, although it's nearly identical to the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (or Carpatho-Ruthenians if you prefer). My experience is that the standard Orthodox liturgies are about 15 to 30 minutes longer than their Eastern Catholic counterparts ( the Russians are nearly two hours - from "Blessed is the kingdom" to final blessing).

The Ukrainian Catholics here were inconsistent - not all the parishes featured Vespers, although the practice here has returned to a few. In some parishes there were no subdeacons - so the priest did almost everything by himself except when distributing communion. (I can see how, in the Latin West, the subdeacon's role was subsumed by altar boys and eventually disappeared.) I'm hazarding a guess many of these parishes used "pre-cut" Lamb and most did not distribute antidoron after the liturgy. They also spent more time around the altar and less time incensing the faithful, but that depended on the parish.

Believe it or not, these were actually minor quibbles with me - I was stunned with one sermon which was nearly all based on St. Augustine and the popes (a more authentically Catholic sermon than  years of Latin ones) but which had nary a reference to Eastern fathers, although the church bulletin actually reposted material from Orthodox websites! There was some communion weirdness during the H1N1 outbreak which infected both Roman and Eastern Churches here.

I think Ukrainians have a split identity, having a position which is analagous somewhat to those of Anglo-Catholics - "Roman Catholics" or "Anglo Catholics" in communion with Canterbury but who look either beyond the Tiber or to pre-Reformation for their theology and praxis. Oddly enough, I got acquainted with one lady who was a convert from Anglo-Catholicism (C of E) to the UGCC.

Attending these was not a huge cultural shock for me, despite being entirely in a foreign tongue. I've attended quite a few Latin masses, with a profound preference for those which are sung. Once you learn the basic three or four responses (to you O Lord, Lord have Mercy etc...) and can follow along the basic parts (high points: Trisagion, Cherubic hymn) attending these becomes normal. Hands down, no comparison with Novus Ordo, and my favourite liturgies, ever, in my 25 year experience in the Roman Catholic church.

After my experience with the Ukrainians I attended a few Russian Orthodox services but have spent most of my time with the Greeks and Antiochians. The music is quite different but you don't have to worry about things cut back or missing. I think the parts that I miss the most about the Greek Catholics were the liturgical music, but they use some Russian style music at the Antiochian parish, and I've REALLY taken a liking to Byzantine music.

I went once to a "Ukrainian Catholic" parish once that had the stations of the Cross done in "Byzantine" style. No problem. What got me though was that the DL was said, not sung. "Christ is risen" isn't the same. Btw, I've been to thei DL sung, which was fine.
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« Reply #145 on: July 17, 2010, 02:15:24 PM »

I plan on attending my first Eastern Orthodox Liturgy tomorrow. It's an OCA parish. I'm looking forward to it.
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« Reply #146 on: July 17, 2010, 02:21:43 PM »

I plan on attending my first Eastern Orthodox Liturgy tomorrow. It's an OCA parish. I'm looking forward to it.

Hope it goes well for you Smiley
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« Reply #147 on: July 17, 2010, 02:23:36 PM »

I plan on attending my first Eastern Orthodox Liturgy tomorrow. It's an OCA parish. I'm looking forward to it.

Hope it goes well for you Smiley

Thank you.
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« Reply #148 on: July 18, 2010, 04:31:29 PM »

I finally attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy today.

It had everything I loved about the Eastern Catholic DL, but there were some small differences that made it unique.

One major difference was the bilingual aspect. Almost everything was done twice--once in English and once in Romanian. It took over two hours. Even the sermon was preached twice. I didn't like this at all.

Something else was the choir. I guess be use there was a choir, nobody sang.

Also, people seemed to arrive at all different times.

Overall I preferred the EC DL, but I suspect it has more to do with the individual parishes than it does with an EO vs. EC thing.
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« Reply #149 on: July 18, 2010, 04:58:29 PM »

I would suggest maybe trying a parish that does it in English only.
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« Reply #150 on: July 18, 2010, 07:07:00 PM »

I would suggest maybe trying a parish that does it in English only.

That is a good idea.
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« Reply #151 on: July 19, 2010, 10:23:17 AM »


One major difference was the bilingual aspect. Almost everything was done twice--once in English and once in Romanian. It took over two hours. Even the sermon was preached twice. I didn't like this at all.
Even if the Liturgy is all in English, it's going to last at least 1 1/2 - 2 hours.

Quote
Something else was the choir. I guess be use there was a choir, nobody sang.
Summertime is when many church choirs take a "vacation."

Quote
Also, people seemed to arrive at all different times.
Because of the "flow" of the services, and also because of the phenomenon of "Orthodox Time," this is very common. Priests remonstrate all the time about it - to little effect, it seems to me.
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« Reply #152 on: July 20, 2010, 09:08:38 PM »

Summertime is when many church choirs take a "vacation."

My apologies, I couldn't see what I was typing on my phone. What I meant to say is that there was a choir, but none of the congregation sang. My thought was maybe because there was a choir?

Overall I really enjoyed it.
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« Reply #153 on: July 20, 2010, 09:50:47 PM »

My apologies, I couldn't see what I was typing on my phone. What I meant to say is that there was a choir, but none of the congregation sang. My thought was maybe because there was a choir?

The congregation by and large not singing is pretty common in Eastern Christian churches these days.
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