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Author Topic: More flack from folks over my conversion  (Read 2360 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robb
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« on: July 23, 2009, 05:49:37 PM »

well, I am getting more flack from my family for wanting to revert back to orthodoxy.  My mother has put a lot of pressure on me by saying things like "If you do that then I'll die" and " If you join with these people then my cancer will come back.  You'll make me sick if you do".  My father is also putting on some pressure (although not as bad as my mother).  It aways seemed to me as odd that many RC's seem to hate the Orthodox Church much more then they even due Protestants.  This even after the fact that most American RC's know almost nothing about Orthodoxy.  They tell me that Orthodoxy is a false Church and that only RCC is true.  My brother is a Traditionalist RC and he has told me that I will burn in Hell for ever if I leave Rome for the OC.  I am so far standing firm against this onslaught

I want to contact a priest as soon as possible and get back into the Church.  Please pray for me that I will and that my parents will accept my decision.  They seemed like they would in the beginning but now they seem to becoming more hardened towards it.  Strange that this would be, but it is.
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2009, 05:52:53 PM »

Don't not revert if you have any thoughts that you might leave again.  Divorce is not an option; that must be your outlook from the onset if you intend to succeed in being faithful to the Church.  You must do this with love, but only if you're dead serious with no intention whatsoever of betraying the Church again.
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Robb
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2009, 01:09:54 AM »

Alveus Lacuna

I never intended to leave the first time around.  It just (unfortunately) happened that way.  I love the Orthodox Church and have learned a lot more this time around then in the past when I was tricked by that Papal propagandist, Dr Joseph Pulcini (the brother of Orthodox priest, Fr Theodore Pulcini).  The first time around, I left more out of anger for the changes that occurred to the RCC after Vatican Council II.  Now I realize that I don not subscribe to all the RCC taught even before that council of theirs. 

Should I just stay lifelessly in a religion which I have so many problems with?  I cannot claim to become the most perfect Orthodox Christan alive.  I have many, many personal faults and flaws, but I still want to be Orthodox because I believe that she is the true Church of Jesus Christ.  Shall I stay an RC if I believe this?


Also, Alveus Lacuna, I hate to ask it but are you an RC troll?  Th reason i ask is that I have encountered the same sort of advice that you have given me from other RC's, and even BC's.  I heard the same "grow where your planted" crap on the Byzcath forum (which I was recently banned from for not going along with their lovely, PC perfect conception of things.  At least it's better then the way I was treated on Fish Eaters forum after I announced my interest in Orthodoxy.  They practically damned me on the spot for even questioning their Traddie worldview.  It was amazing for me to see people that I knew for years and thought were my internet pal's gang up and either assualt or shun me for my religious viewpoint. 

I want to be Orthodox again!
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2009, 01:22:47 AM »

My advice would be to contact an Orthodox priest. Orthodox message boards can only go so far in supporting you and aiding you. You must reach out to an Orthodox priest for support and for reconciliation with the Church.

Also, Alveus Lacuna is not an RC troll, but rather an Orthodox catechumen. All he was telling you to do is be certain in your decision. That is sound advice and you should not be offended by it.

You are an adult. You have the freedom and right to make adult decisions and live with the consequenses of those decisions. One of those decisions you have the freedom to make is which faith you choose to follow. While I understand you may have some negative fall-out from your family as a result, you have to decide which is more important to you; following the true faith or following your family.

May God guide you in your decision.
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2009, 01:26:59 AM »

Robb

Glory to Jesus Christ


The people at Byzcath are in now way perfect and I am saddened that you feel you were treated baddly and  no Alveus Lacuna  is not an "RC Troll" he just want's to make sure you know what your doing .


In Christ
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2009, 01:56:50 AM »

Also, Alveus Lacuna, I hate to ask it, but are you an RC troll?  The reason I ask is that I have encountered the same sort of advice that you have given me from other RC's, and even BC's.  I heard the same "grow where your planted" crap on the Byzcath forum.

I was not advising you to stay in a heterodox breakaway sect of Christendom.  I just gathered from your other posts that you have experienced a lot of uncertainty and weak resolve between Roman Catholicism and the Orthodox faith.

Since you have hopped back and forth between the two faiths already, I was merely cautioning you to gird your loins and make a solid commitment this time around, because obviously the conversion is going to cause considerable strife between you and your family.  Just make sure that you're firm in your resolve, because to leave again would inevitably destroy any respect your family might eventually gain for Orthodoxy.

May God's blessings be upon you, and may He guide you back into the flock of the faithful safely!
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2009, 09:33:07 AM »

Robb,

May the Most Holy Trinity guide and direct you as you return to the Holy Orthodox Church.  Please follow the advice of those above who advise you to meet and discuss your issues with an Orthodox Priest. I look forward to hearing from you again that you have been welcomed home and are in full communion with the Holy Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2009, 09:59:11 AM »

Lord have mercy, guide Your servant & grant reassurance & illumination to his family and friends.
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2009, 09:17:32 PM »

Lord, have mercy in this difficult situation.
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2009, 11:11:05 PM »

Lord have Mercy.
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2009, 10:22:38 PM »

You posted it on FishEaters? Wow. I can imagine the response there. I joined the forum but left after a while...it seemed as if many of them were saying that anyone attending the NO mass were somehow not Catholic, or for the Sedevacantists that the the entire RCC except for their group was hellbound...not too mention the antisemitism and semi-fascism of some members. I've seen worse trad catholic forums tho. One had a whole subforum about the Jewish conspiracy (DIDN'T JOIN THAT ONE). If you REALLY want flack, tell the group Tradition in Action that you're leaving Catholicism (the cultural pages on that site are interesting tho...they document pre-modern western cultural practices).

Anyway, I actually have not seen much animosity between RC's and EO, altho there does seem to be a general ignorance about the Orthodox Church (so many think its all state/government groups) and even about the eastern Catholics. I would suggest trying to explain to your mother Orthodoxy and giving her some simple introductory books (what was her reaction the first time around?).

Oh and, if you can bring yourself to do it, pray for those "Papal propagandists".
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2009, 10:43:10 PM »

well, I am getting more flack from my family for wanting to revert back to orthodoxy.  My mother has put a lot of pressure on me by saying things like "If you do that then I'll die" and " If you join with these people then my cancer will come back.  You'll make me sick if you do".  My father is also putting on some pressure (although not as bad as my mother).  It aways seemed to me as odd that many RC's seem to hate the Orthodox Church much more then they even due Protestants.  This even after the fact that most American RC's know almost nothing about Orthodoxy.  They tell me that Orthodoxy is a false Church and that only RCC is true.  My brother is a Traditionalist RC and he has told me that I will burn in Hell for ever if I leave Rome for the OC.  I am so far standing firm against this onslaught

I want to contact a priest as soon as possible and get back into the Church.  Please pray for me that I will and that my parents will accept my decision.  They seemed like they would in the beginning but now they seem to becoming more hardened towards it.  Strange that this would be, but it is.

Well, not even the Pope believes you will burn in hell for becoming Orthodox, inasmuch as RCC believes Orthodoxy to be "valid Churches," so your brother shouldn't try to be more RC than the pope.  I will be praying for you.  May God keep you on your journey.   
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2009, 02:42:43 AM »

Father, you know, you are right.  I believe in orthodoxy but have a great respect for BXVI.  Any local Orthodox Church would be blessed to have such a man of intelligence and piety as there primate.

As far as I know, nobody in my family (with the possible exception of my brother) would believe that I am damned to Hell for becoming Orthodox.  I had an uncle who, with his entire family, left the RCC and became Assembly of God.  He used to come over and double damn us a million times over for worshipping statues, praying to saints, and going to mass.  Yet, we never had a falling out with him.  He believed what he did and, while we both disturbed and somewhat bemused by it, my family felt that he had a right to profess whatever he thought to be true.  Not sure if this strong sense of "family first" is just an Italian trait or that other ethnic groups would also feel and act in a similar way?  I am sorry to say that he died a few years ago and I pray that his soul will find peace with God.

So my family hasn't consigned me to flames.  I think that they just believe that their religion is true and do not want to see me leave it because of that and a loss of family unity in religious matters.
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2009, 03:40:05 AM »

You posted it on FishEaters? Wow. I can imagine the response there. I joined the forum but left after a while...it seemed as if many of them were saying that anyone attending the NO mass were somehow not Catholic, or for the Sedevacantists that the the entire RCC except for their group was hellbound...not too mention the antisemitism and semi-fascism of some members. I've seen worse trad catholic forums tho. One had a whole subforum about the Jewish conspiracy (DIDN'T JOIN THAT ONE). If you REALLY want flack, tell the group Tradition in Action that you're leaving Catholicism (the cultural pages on that site are interesting tho...they document pre-modern western cultural practices).

Anyway, I actually have not seen much animosity between RC's and EO, altho there does seem to be a general ignorance about the Orthodox Church (so many think its all state/government groups) and even about the eastern Catholics. I would suggest trying to explain to your mother Orthodoxy and giving her some simple introductory books (what was her reaction the first time around?).

Oh and, if you can bring yourself to do it, pray for those "Papal propagandists".

You know, I actually enjoyed the time I had on FE forums.  True, most of the people tend to hold somewhat insane views on various issues, but I still found them to be basically decent people, many of whom helped me with some deep, personal issues in my life.  It is just that they seem to be stuck in some kind of 16the century time warp and are unable to quantum leap out of it into the present day world.  When I announced that I was seriously looking into reverting back to Orthodoxy, it was as if I had announced to them that I was going to die.  They really changed their tune towards me from one of mutual friendship and respect to bitterness, hatred, and self loathing towards my person.  Many hurled all kinds of invectives against me and actually believed that I was placing myself on the road to perdition.  A favorite document of theirs was the decree from the 15the century Council of Florence by Pope Eugene IV which stated that all non Catholics were going to Hell".

Now, it's quit obvious that very few RC's and especially not the official, Vatican RC HQ, hold these views anymore.  Yet, to the trads on FE, these Papal pro noncements were as real and binding on all the faithful had they just been issued yesterday.  Now, many an Orthodox Christan treats their canons and decrees in the same manner.  The difference however is that no higher authority or ecumenical council of Orthodoxy actually nullified or did away with those C & D's.  The RC traddies are, all and all, nice folks but hopelessly lost in a world that does not exist any more.
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2009, 04:00:16 AM »

Alveus Lacuna

I never intended to leave the first time around.  It just (unfortunately) happened that way.  I love the Orthodox Church and have learned a lot more this time around then in the past when I was tricked by that Papal propagandist, Dr Joseph Pulcini (the brother of Orthodox priest, Fr Theodore Pulcini).  The first time around, I left more out of anger for the changes that occurred to the RCC after Vatican Council II.  Now I realize that I don not subscribe to all the RCC taught even before that council of theirs. 

That's why a sufficient period of cathecumenate is necessary to have to time to think about things and study them! How long did it last the first time? Many catholics, nostalgic of pre-Vatican II, come to orthodox churches thinking it is the same after all and do not realise that RCC fell from the church centuries before Vatican II! Moreover, everyone is responsible for his acts, so saying, "I never intended to leave the first time around.  It just (unfortunately) happened that way.  I love the Orthodox Church and have learned a lot more this time around then in the past when I was tricked by that Papal propagandist, Dr Joseph Pulcini (the brother of Orthodox priest, Fr Theodore Pulcini)." is the opposite of what is to be said in confession. You can be tempted, influenced, but finally the action is yours, only yours. No need to look for apologizes. As it was told to you, "Be a man".
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2009, 04:15:51 PM »

I never actually went through a period of cathecism the first time.  I just read and studied a lot about the OC and talked to a priest.  He said that I knew enough about Orthodoxy to be baptized and I was.  The parish that I attended was small and I'm not even sure that they had any official instruction classes that were offered.  I know enough about Orthodoxy now to get received back into the fold by confession. 

It would be rather difficult for me to have to attend an OC CCD type program because I live a distance a way from an OC church and a  regular, weekly attendance would be somewhat of a problem for me. 

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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2009, 05:12:29 PM »

But at the first time, what made you become orthodox and after that lapse? Weren't you convinced? I must insist that orthodoxy is not only about knowledge, studying but also about practice. Being an expert in orthodox theology does make you an orthodox. Knowledge and practice goes hand by hand.

Your story is interesting I think because it could help some parishes to formalize the reception of converts. Unfortunately, some priests are in a hurry to baptise persons that leave afterwards. The beginning is often enthusiastic, that's why it's better to wait some months before baptising. I would say, at least 12 months.
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2009, 02:18:38 AM »

That's an interesting question?  I guess that I was lured in by RC propaganda which denounced Orthodoxy as being irrelevant to the modern world.  I understand that some converts leave the Church but this probably happens much more with cradle Orthodox who desert the faith for other folds.  Should priest take more care when baptizing infants least they grow up and leave too?

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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2009, 03:19:33 AM »

The case of infant is really different. As an adult, you're supposed to make a mature decision backed on serious thinking. Once again, it seems to me (but I may be mistaken) that you refuse to take your responsibilities saying "I was lured..." as if you were not responsible for your actions. YOU took the final decision to leave. It would be too easy to say : "I was driven to sin by the evil". Sorry but it doesn' t work, You sin, we all sin and we are not to look for apologizes saying we were victim of such and such.

Moreover, it seems to me that you had an approach to orthodoxy that was purely intellectual. Leaving because "Orthodoxy is irrelevant to the modern world." indicates that you did not care at all for dogmas, theology, holiness, i.e the truth but only for fitting into the world  Cry which is not a theological argument at all. I hope

I emphasized the question of practice because you appear to speak about knowledge of orthodoxy, saying that since you studied, you know many things etc. But now, do you practice orthodoxy (in particular in your private prayer life)? Have you already begun to do it? I do not know  your story but when I read you, you appear to be as a person that does not the responsibilities of his past behaviors, looks for apologizes for his mistakes saying he was young, immature, lured, deceived... I can be wrong of course.

Well, I will stop asking about this particular things but the only advice I can give is to talk to a priest (write to a bishop), not the first one you saw of course and explain everything in detail. But don't be surprised if they require time to test your determination. Actually, this is what I would personally do.

Good luck. By the way, since you've not officially made the step to come back to orthodoxy, we may be speaking for nothing.
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2009, 03:54:34 AM »

Yea, that sounds like me all over.  I don't know what to tell you Jean?  I am an American and not from whatever part of the world that you seem to come from.  Americans of my age live, for the most part, a carefree life of decadent abundance.  I grew up in this environment and have been heavily influenced by its ways.  I want to become Orthodox because, despite my personal faults, I believe that it is the true faith.  I try my best to be a good person and help other people with their needs so hopefully that will count for something up there.

One of the problems I have always had with religious people is how judgmental that they can become.  Jean, you should really learn not to be so picky with people.  Thank God I am joining a mainstream Orthodox jurisdiction which doesn't treat conversion as some type of masonic, attaining enlightenment, thing.
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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2009, 10:42:01 AM »

Yea, that sounds like me all over.  I don't know what to tell you Jean?  I am an American and not from whatever part of the world that you seem to come from.  Americans of my age live, for the most part, a carefree life of decadent abundance.  I grew up in this environment and have been heavily influenced by its ways.  I want to become Orthodox because, despite my personal faults, I believe that it is the true faith.  I try my best to be a good person and help other people with their needs so hopefully that will count for something up there.

One of the problems I have always had with religious people is how judgmental that they can become.  Jean, you should really learn not to be so picky with people.  Thank God I am joining a mainstream Orthodox jurisdiction which doesn't treat conversion as some type of masonic, attaining enlightenment, thing.

Actually Robb, what Jean has told you is right on the money. I too am an American, however that does not negate me from having to accept the truth that is Orthodoxy and having to account for my actions at the second judgment seat of Christ. Most catechumens receive Orthodox training for a year to two years before they are received into the Church. I have heard some taking as long as 4 to 5 years. This is to make sure the catechumen is certain of his/her decision, and does not leave the Church quickly after their conversion. To be fair, even a catechumen in the Catholic Church is required to take RCIA courses that can last over a year. Both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church want to be sure their converts are firm in their decision.

Having said that, the past is the past, and what is done is done.

If you are certain about your return to Orthodoxy, contact your priest, and he will instruct you as to what you need to do from their.

God bless you on your journey.

Maureen
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2009, 10:48:44 AM »

If you are certain about your return to Orthodoxy, contact your priest, and he will instruct you as to what you need to do from their.

God bless you on your journey.

Maureen

You're entirely right, Maureen.
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2009, 11:29:22 AM »

Hi Robb

Don't be too concerned with the opinions of those of us on this forum. The fact is, there isn't a single one of us who have the authority nor the information to judge you. I wouldn't worry yourself about these opinions for in the final analysis, that's all they are and that's all they're worth. It's funny how the immediacy of the internet can turn ordinary folks into experts in every field of endeavor. The bottom line is to pray and follow the leading of your heart. And don't be too hard on yourself (and whatever you do, don't let the opinions of folks here, dampen your spirits). If you can, sit down and talk with a priest about your desire to return to the Church. And let HIM and only HIM give you instruction as to how to best go about it. God bless you, Robb.
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2009, 04:46:01 PM »

Thank you all for your replies.

I am not sure if there is a standard, universal practice in Orthoodxy for the reception of converts.  Some like the GOA or OCA may have a more formalized process for recpetion while others do not.  The practice may vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and from parish to parish.
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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2009, 02:25:55 AM »

Robb,

I have followed your story on both this forum and the two threads on Fisheaters (I have also read several of your other threads there as well).

My advise is essentially that of Douglas. Speak with the priest at the parish you decide to make your home, explain fully your situation. He will then guide you on your way. He will determine what is the most expedient course to Orthodoxy for you.

In other words, the priest will decide whether to apply the canons leniently or strictly based on what will most benefit you spiritually.

The canons rather than being simply legalistic laws are standards and spiritual tools to help us towards salvation and theosis. The bishops and priests can decide in what spirit they should be applied as most benefits the individual soul. Thus, for some a long period of penance may be deemed most beneficial, for others a good confession, recitation of the Creed and anointing will suffice and your good to go.

Ultimately, only your priest should determine the best course of re-entry to Orthodoxy that is best for you, not the good people on this or any other forum board.


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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2009, 02:33:53 PM »

Wow!  Traditional Frog, I think that I remember you posting on FE before (but had no idea that you were Orthodox). 

Yea, I'm going to talk with a priest about this and get his judgment on things.

People on Fe tend to be on the loony side of things.  When I announced that I was considering Orthodoxy, the treated me with such contempt, it was unbelievable.  I mean, I've heard about stuff like that happening before when people leave a religion but I never experienced it to that extent. 

After having spent some time in the trad Catholic movement, I am happy to be returning to Orthodoxy.  I always felt like an outsider with the former group on a number of issues, like birth control, large families, all the excessive devotionalism, ad belief in near universal damnation.  These commonly held trad Cath views really caused me discomfort but I was always afraid to speak my mind about them (since I saw what most of these people thought of and treated those who did).

I mean, I know Orthodox Christians and I feel perfectly comfortable going on boards like this and debating with them about various issues which are near and dear to me (or talking in persona s well).  However, the trad Catholics are not the same way.  Unlike the Orthodox, they are very well organized and hold almost identical views on practically any issue relating to religion/politics.  If you cross their path on any issue which they feel strongly about (which are many) they will really let you have it in a way most Orthodox wouldn't or couldn't do. 

Be leery of them.
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2009, 03:23:33 PM »

Robb,

Interesting you remember me on Fish Eaters. I haven't posted there in eons.

When I joined Fish Eaters (almost at its inception) I was a part of the traditional Catholic scene. Actually, I originally went under a different user name which I can't remember now. I changed user names due to issues I am reluctant to disclose. Anyway, I have been Orthodox for sometime now and am quite happy there. Looks like I need to update my Fish Eaters profile as it still lists me as Roman Catholic. Oops!

I've been there done that. Yes, traditional Catholics can be noisy and obnoxious at times. What irritates me besides the points you bring up is the number of resident conspiracy theorists, anti-semites (or near), and the rantings of the sedevacantists. You also have a point that many are very militant if someone disagrees with them on even a personal opinion.

(I found that most trad-catholics I have met in person are nothing like the online folks.)

That not withstanding, I can see why the folks there would not be too pleasant when someone announces they are leaving the Church. Remember, like the Orthodox they have a "one true church" claim. Combine this with online trad-cath militancy and you get sadly uncharitable behaviour. Although wrong in belief, I do admire their standing up for their faith, but not how they go about it.

I never was a huge poster on any forum board, including this one. As for Fisheaters or any other trad-cath forum, I rarely log in anymore, let alone post. I scan the boards a few times of day when I make my internet rounds. I know what would likely happen if I start posting and I don't want to go there, for their sake and mine. The Cathinfo forum is by far the most bizarre of the bunch. There are a good number of conspiracy theorists and sedevacants, that sadly of late have been the most frequent posters. Ugh!

This is the religious forum I am most comfortable and active on. For the most part the people are civil and down to earth. Also, the moderators seem fairly reasonable as well.

Robb, I'm glad you decided to work with your priest on re-entering the Church. The priest will discern what is most beneficial for your soul. God bless you!





« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 03:27:17 PM by thetraditionalfrog » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2009, 03:44:43 PM »


Don't not revert if you have any thoughts that you might leave again.  Divorce is not an option; that must be your outlook from the onset if you intend to succeed in being faithful to the Church.  You must do this with love, but only if you're dead serious with no intention whatsoever of betraying the Church again.

That doesn't entirely make sense if one in the future becomes convinced that the EOC is not the Church. At that point one should not simply stay in the EOC because of previous commitments.
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