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Author Topic: Orthodox Patriarch wants Euro-body with Catholics, Protestants  (Read 2427 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 19, 2009, 06:34:53 PM »

Orthodox Patriarch wants Euro-body with Catholics, Protestants

http://www.eni.ch/featured/article.php?id=3187

Stephen Brown

Lyon, France (ENI). Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos I, a spiritual leader who represents Eastern Orthodox Christianity, has called for the creation of a churches' umbrella body in Europe to include Roman Catholics alongside Anglicans, Orthodox and Protestants.

"It is only by engaging in dialogue and by closely cooperating that the churches will prove capable of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ to the world in a convincing and effective way," the Orthodox leader said in a 19 July address in Lyon, France to mark the 50th anniversary of the founding of the Conference of European Churches.

CEC now has about 120 member churches, principally Anglican, Orthodox and Protestant, but Bartholomeos said that Europe needs a grouping that includes the Catholic Church.

This would help to promote unity between churches and enable them to act jointly on issues in Europe such as secularisation, human rights violations, racism, the economic crisis, and threats to the environment.

"I am convinced that a conference of all the European churches, and I underline, all the European churches, working in harmony will be able to respond better to the sacred command to re-establish communion between the churches and to serve our contemporaries confronted as they are with so many complex problems," said Bartholomeos to applause.

"It will then be possible to promote more effectively the dialogue of the churches of Europe with the European institutions and the European Union," said the Patriarch, who is based in Istanbul, formerly Constantinople and one-time capital of the Byzantine Empire.

The Orthodox leader asked Cardinal Philippe Barbarin of Lyon, who was present in the audience, to transmit the proposal to "where it needs to go", in an apparent reference to the Vatican.

Bartholomeos warned that the failure of churches in Europe to match their statements about unity with specific actions calls into question their credibility.

"Procrastination cannot be justified," he said. "The future of the new Europe that is under construction is sombre and, indeed, uncertain, being built as it is without Christian spiritual values which touch on everything concerning the support and protection of human beings and their dignity."

The 50th anniversary celebrations for CEC came during the church grouping's once-every-six-years assembly being held from 15-21 July in Lyon. This has gathered 300 delegates from CEC member churches and 500 other participants.

Bartholomeos said there is an obligation to, "re-establish full communion between the Christian churches in Europe". Orthodox Christians and Catholics separated from one another several centuries before the 16th-century Reformation and the rise of Protestantism.

The Patriarch noted efforts made in recent decades to overcome divisions. These include the Charta Oecumenica, a document signed in Strasbourg in 2001 by CEC and the Council of European (Catholic) Bishops' Conferences, and intended to boost inter-church cooperation.

However, many of its proposals have not been implemented by churches, and many Christian faithful are unaware of its recommendations, said Bartholomeos.

"The result is that what we have said is not matched by our actions, which damages the credibility of our churches, and gives the impression … that we are incapable of finding solutions to current problems," the Patriarch stated.

In February 2008, the president of CEC, the Rev. Jean-Arnold de Clermont, proposed the creation of a Council of European Churches that would also include the Catholic Church.

Speaking to journalists at the start of the Lyon assembly, de Clermont, a French Protestant pastor, urged steps to increase collaboration with the Catholic Church as well as with Evangelical groups.

"There is already a structure for cooperation between CEC and the Roman Catholic Church but this is not enough," said de Clermont. "The world of today couldn't care less about our [Christian] disputes. We need to have a common voice of the Christian churches in Europe."

The history of CEC goes back to January 1959, when representatives from 45 Protestant and Orthodox churches in 20 countries in Eastern and Western Europe gathered in Nyborg, Denmark.

During the Cold War, CEC helped bridge the divide between East and West. In recent years, the church grouping has played an active role in representing churches to institutions such as the European Union, the Strasbourg-based Council of Europe and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.


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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2009, 08:02:27 PM »

Since the Vatican hasn't joined the WCC, why would it join this?  And when many of us are trying to get our Churches out of the WCC, why should they join this?
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2009, 09:33:44 AM »

Typical ecumenist bs. This should not be the priority of the Orthodox Churches!
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2009, 10:52:30 AM »

A "Eurobody of 'churches'" including abortionist protestants (whom the writer of the didache would definately exclude from the Body of Christ), and others who do not share our canon of faith?  One sometimes wonders whether the "old world" has largely served its usefulness on a worldwide scale in Orthodoxy.  Constantinople received its position of honour largely due to its secular political ascendancy; the time is now that the new world be given such practical recognition.  The American Orthodox church has demonstrated its ability to cleanse its internal affairs from within (witness the OCA).  The Patriarchs of the Church possess the authority to fix the canonical order here in the Americas.  If this does not occur, they have chosen not to do it.  It is their call.  May the Holy Spirit guide them in what is truly best for us and the entire Church Catholic, that is the Orthodox church.
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2009, 03:11:28 PM »

 Πρόσθες αὐτοῖς κακά, Κύριε, πρόσθες αὐτοῖς κακά, τοῖς ἐνδόξοις τῆς γῆς.
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 12:19:56 AM »

A "Eurobody of 'churches'" including abortionist protestants (whom the writer of the didache would definately exclude from the Body of Christ), and others who do not share our canon of faith?

Since you are, apparently, an Evangelical Protestant, I'll go ahead and cry chapter and verse.  How is having political views lacking any nuance and more or less in line with the right in US politics the litmus test for Christianity?  Furthermore, how does disagreement on one issue preclude co-operation on other issues?  My only regret about this programme is that it doesn't include Europe's Islamic population.  On a great many social issues, Orthodoxy (and other traditional leaning Christian groups) has more in common with Islam than almost anyone else in Europe.       

One sometimes wonders whether the "old world" has largely served its usefulness on a worldwide scale in Orthodoxy.  Constantinople received its position of honour largely due to its secular political ascendancy; the time is now that the new world be given such practical recognition.  The American Orthodox church has demonstrated its ability to cleanse its internal affairs from within (witness the OCA).  The Patriarchs of the Church possess the authority to fix the canonical order here in the Americas.  If this does not occur, they have chosen not to do it.  It is their call.  May the Holy Spirit guide them in what is truly best for us and the entire Church Catholic, that is the Orthodox church.[/b][/b]

Indeed!  It is my fervent prayer that all of the Orthodox Churches become as the OCA is in America: an obscure, irrelevant, side show with a dwindling native population and unable to retain curiosity converts for more than a few years.  May it be blessed! 
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 12:24:22 AM »

Indeed!  It is my fervent prayer that all of the Orthodox Churches become as the OCA is in America: an obscure, irrelevant, side show with a dwindling native population and unable to retain curiosity converts for more than a few years.  May it be blessed! 

Wow was that really necessary?
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 12:35:28 AM »

Indeed!  It is my fervent prayer that all of the Orthodox Churches become as the OCA is in America: an obscure, irrelevant, side show with a dwindling native population and unable to retain curiosity converts for more than a few years.  May it be blessed! 

Wow was that really necessary?

it makes the secular progressives feel good about themselves.
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 12:43:12 AM »

Indeed!  It is my fervent prayer that all of the Orthodox Churches become as the OCA is in America: an obscure, irrelevant, side show with a dwindling native population and unable to retain curiosity converts for more than a few years.  May it be blessed! 

Wow was that really necessary?

Silly me, I forgot that among many here it is perfectly appropriate to say all manner of vile things about the Ecumenical Patriarchate or whatever the current whipping boy is from the "old world" yet any realistic discussion about the OCA is off limits.

Indeed!  It is my fervent prayer

Wow was that really necessary?

it makes the secular progressives feel good about themselves.

And Isa (may peace be upon him) is back to his usual routine of throwing out inaccurate labels rather than discussing actual ideas.   
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 02:03:41 AM »

Indeed!  It is my fervent prayer that all of the Orthodox Churches become as the OCA is in America: an obscure, irrelevant, side show with a dwindling native population and unable to retain curiosity converts for more than a few years.  May it be blessed! 

Callin' BS.  At least in this diocese of the South, it's slow (VEEEERRRRY SLOW), yet steady growth.  Missions are opening, not closing, and doing so at a consistent rate.  Look, man, just because someone calls the EP on some Hail Mary play he's making to try and foster false unity doesn't mean that you can make sweeping statements like this and not get called on it.

Sheesh...of course not everything the EP does is demonic, but this was a silly thing for him to say, or at least to make it to the point of TOTAL eucharistic unity (if the article is accurate, that is, and he actually did state as much).  For people to cite THIS STATEMENT as screwy doesn't mean that 1) they think the EP is ridiculous all the time, nor that 2) responses saying that the OCA is similarly ridiculous through and through are appropriate.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 02:13:26 AM »

Πρόσθες αὐτοῖς κακά, Κύριε, πρόσθες αὐτοῖς κακά, τοῖς ἐνδόξοις τῆς γῆς.
Can I get an English translation, please?
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 02:29:24 AM »

Πρόσθες αὐτοῖς κακά, Κύριε, πρόσθες αὐτοῖς κακά, τοῖς ἐνδόξοις τῆς γῆς.
Can I get an English translation, please?

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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 08:13:53 AM »

Indeed!  It is my fervent prayer that all of the Orthodox Churches become as the OCA is in America: an obscure, irrelevant, side show with a dwindling native population and unable to retain curiosity converts for more than a few years.  May it be blessed! 

Callin' BS.  At least in this diocese of the South, it's slow (VEEEERRRRY SLOW), yet steady growth.  Missions are opening, not closing, and doing so at a consistent rate.  Look, man, just because someone calls the EP on some Hail Mary play he's making to try and foster false unity doesn't mean that you can make sweeping statements like this and not get called on it.

Sheesh...of course not everything the EP does is demonic, but this was a silly thing for him to say, or at least to make it to the point of TOTAL eucharistic unity (if the article is accurate, that is, and he actually did state as much).  For people to cite THIS STATEMENT as screwy doesn't mean that 1) they think the EP is ridiculous all the time, nor that 2) responses saying that the OCA is similarly ridiculous through and through are appropriate.

 Roll Eyes

I just heard the other day in a podcast that Orthodoxy is actually growing faster than the Roman Catholic Church in the United States if you discount immigration. The OCA definitely isn't shrinking at all. The parishes I've seen have all grown. We must remember that some sources count the people that don't regularly attend Orthodox Churches, while others only count the members of the Churches that are active and regularly attend.
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 08:57:58 AM »

"Since you are, apparently, an Evangelical Protestant, I'll go ahead and cry chapter and verse".

Nektarios, Forgive me if I appeared harsh on the Ecumenical Patriarch, and toward all of the Holy Heierarchs in Europe; indeed toward all of the faithful in those lands.  But notice, that I never once disdained their authority.  I affirmed that it is to them to decide when the Americas should be granted autocephaly (so far they have succeeded in contradicting one another on that matter historically [Moscow/Constantinople]).  I also stated my trust in the Holy Spirit to guide them.  The spirit of Protestantism disdains authority.  Orthodox are submissive, yet are rational sheep- witness my historical observation in the previous sentence.

However, you without ever meeting me, claim that I am a Protestant?  To the left of this message is my faith.  It is Orthodox.  I am baptized, chrismated and have been communed with the body and blood of Christ.  Do you disdain God's workings through the sacraments of the Church (and I am in a jurisdiction that yours is joined together with)?  Or possibly you meant that my "protestant views' such as an abhorrence of murder through abortion have yet to be worked out.  Orthodoxy does not destroy the good in whatever we have been a part of; it fulfills us. 

Nevertheless, I can understand your righteous reaction if what I said disdained authority.  But reread my text.  Although I mused aloud over my own thoughts regarding Europe, in the end I leave it to them to carry out their God given duties.

 Once again please forgive me if I have offended you.


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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 09:33:12 AM »

I just heard the other day in a podcast that Orthodoxy is actually growing faster than the Roman Catholic Church in the United States if you discount immigration.

Unfortunately, not true, at least not in absolute numbers. Percentages might be a different story. On average, there are anywhere from 100,000 to 150,000 Americans who convert to Roman Catholicism every year. Been that way for quite a while. There are actually more American converts to Roman Catholicism than there are Orthodox of all stripes in this country.

The OCA definitely isn't shrinking at all. The parishes I've seen have all grown. We must remember that some sources count the people that don't regularly attend Orthodox Churches, while others only count the members of the Churches that are active and regularly attend.

Limited personal experiences aside, the numbers tell a different story if you look at the trends over the last 35 years. Although the OCA has had a good number of converts, it has lost far more to death and attrition in that time. Of course, it all depends on what years you compare. We'll know more about the last 10 years soon, after the 2010 surveys. There are some hopeful signs about the more recent past: A (limited) survey conducted by the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute found that 29 percent of people in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese are converts, as are 51 percent of people in the OCA.
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 09:37:59 AM »

Quote from: Νεκτάριος on Today at 12:19:56 AMIndeed!  It is my fervent prayer that all of the Orthodox Churches become as the OCA is in America: an obscure, irrelevant, side show with a dwindling native population and unable to retain curiosity converts for more than a few years.  May it be blessed!  

Response:  What a terrible thing to post!  I hope you are at least reprimanded.  It shows a complete lack of knowledge and respect for a part of your family!  How would you react if it was said about your own jurisdiction?  Especially since your comments regarding a dwindling native population is way off mark.  Both OCA seminaries in the lower forty eight (St Tikhon's & St Vlad's) are full to capacity.  AND THE VAST MAJORITY ARE SEMINARIANS WHO ARE CONVERTS TO THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC FAITH!

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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 10:12:00 AM »

with a dwindling native population

AND THE VAST MAJORITY ARE SEMINARIANS WHO ARE CONVERTS TO THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC FAITH!

While I think Nektarios' sarcasm was at least on the line, if not over it, your point does not disprove his, but rather reinforces it.  It's not a bad thing that we're getting a lot of People Who Became Orthodox as Adults (PWBOAA) at seminary, but it IS a bad thing that the ratio of PWBOAA:PWBOAC (People Who Become Orthodox as Children) at seminary does not reflect the ratio within the Church at large.  It is a reflection of the larger truth: that within all Orthodox jurisdictions in the US, we have a hard time retaining the PWBOAC and instead are becoming utterly dependent on PWBOAA to help re-stock our leadership (clerical or lay).
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 10:37:53 AM »

While I think Nektarios' sarcasm was at least on the line, if not over it, your point does not disprove his, but rather reinforces it.  It's not a bad thing that we're getting a lot of People Who Became Orthodox as Adults (PWBOAA) at seminary, but it IS a bad thing that the ratio of PWBOAA:PWBOAC (People Who Become Orthodox as Children) at seminary does not reflect the ratio within the Church at large.  It is a reflection of the larger truth: that within all Orthodox jurisdictions in the US, we have a hard time retaining the PWBOAC and instead are becoming utterly dependent on PWBOAA to help re-stock our leadership (clerical or lay).

Funny. I was going to say something similar. The dominance of converts (such as myself) is actually a symptom of the substantial loss of total adherents in all Orthodox jurisdictions over the last 30 years. Sure, we have 10,000s of people who have converted -- but if, at the same time, 100,000s die or leave, then the trend is still down. Such is the case in all jurisdictions.
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 11:01:49 AM »

His AH is just calling for a co-ordinated action with the other Christian bodies within the EU (as you might know the EU is a political unity of 27 member-states with different cultural and religious background) on issues that unite us (e.g abortion, ecology) and do not divide us. No- one is selling up Holy Orthodoxy. Instead it's obvious that the Christians of the EU must "lobby" more fervently our EU commissioners. A non-issue in my humble opinion.
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 11:09:09 AM »

To build on what Pensateomnia has been saying: the numbers claiming that Orthodoxy is the fastest growing religion in the US are completely absurd and wishful thinking at best.  Outside of major immigration centres (New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Pennsylvania) Orthodox parishes are pretty few and far between.  To put it in perspective, many of the megachurches in your respective cities likely have more members than all the local Orthodox parishes combined.  But if people insist on the numbers game, by far and away the GOA is the largest jurisdiction in the US and I wouldn't be surprised if they have the largest (absolute) number of converts.  And of course, my point was lost on many here: for some it is sport to sit around and complain about the EP all day while absolutely refusing to take any sort of critical evaluation of the OCA, Antiochians or whoever else is the current golden boy.  

However, you without ever meeting me, claim that I am a Protestant?  To the left of this message is my faith.  It is Orthodox.  I am baptized, chrismated and have been communed with the body and blood of Christ.  Do you disdain God's workings through the sacraments of the Church (and I am in a jurisdiction that yours is joined together with)?  Or possibly you meant that my "protestant views' such as an abhorrence of murder through abortion have yet to be worked out.  Orthodoxy does not destroy the good in whatever we have been a part of; it fulfills us. 
 
All I have to go by are your posts, and they appear to be from an evangelical Protestant of the American variety.  They are dripping with a re-worked manifest destiny (American needs an autocephalous church, why?) and the mixing of politics and religion that is popular with the American religious right (and of course if anyone disagrees with you, they disagree with God).  
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2009, 02:32:56 PM »

To build on what Pensateomnia has been saying: the numbers claiming that Orthodoxy is the fastest growing religion in the US are completely absurd and wishful thinking at best.  Outside of major immigration centres (New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Pennsylvania) Orthodox parishes are pretty few and far between.  To put it in perspective, many of the megachurches in your respective cities likely have more members than all the local Orthodox parishes combined.  But if people insist on the numbers game, by far and away the GOA is the largest jurisdiction in the US and I wouldn't be surprised if they have the largest (absolute) number of converts.  And of course, my point was lost on many here: for some it is sport to sit around and complain about the EP all day while absolutely refusing to take any sort of critical evaluation of the OCA, Antiochians or whoever else is the current golden boy.  

However, you without ever meeting me, claim that I am a Protestant?  To the left of this message is my faith.  It is Orthodox.  I am baptized, chrismated and have been communed with the body and blood of Christ.  Do you disdain God's workings through the sacraments of the Church (and I am in a jurisdiction that yours is joined together with)?  Or possibly you meant that my "protestant views' such as an abhorrence of murder through abortion have yet to be worked out.  Orthodoxy does not destroy the good in whatever we have been a part of; it fulfills us. 
 
All I have to go by are your posts, and they appear to be from an evangelical Protestant of the American variety.  They are dripping with a re-worked manifest destiny (American needs an autocephalous church, why?) and the mixing of politics and religion that is popular with the American religious right (and of course if anyone disagrees with you, they disagree with God).  
As if this last sentence does not ooze with mood driven generalizations?
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2009, 02:58:51 PM »

To build on what Pensateomnia has been saying: the numbers claiming that Orthodoxy is the fastest growing religion in the US are completely absurd and wishful thinking at best.

Maybe we aren't in raw numbers, but hey, when you've got almost no one, even a handful coming in translates to massive percentage increases. Tongue
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2009, 03:08:49 PM »

There are some hopeful signs about the more recent past: A (limited) survey conducted by the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute found that 29 percent of people in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese are converts, as are 51 percent of people in the OCA.

I'm not going to buy that 51% of those in the OCA are converts.  Maybe outside of the Golden triangle of PA, NJ, and NY they have more converts.  But the total OCA population is not 51% converts.  However out of all of the dozens and dozens of Orthodox churches in my region very few are even at the break even point (converts/reverts replacing the number leaving through death or attrition).  And it doesn't matter what jurisdiction either they're all dwindling in congregants.  I fear half or if not more of the Orthodox churches regardless of jurisdiction in my region will not survive the next 10 years.  The factors are many and the formula has not been even drawn up for success. And who could draw that formula up as it is very complicated with many variables. Yes the Orthodox Church will get smaller in the USA as a whole regardless of jurisdiction.  Simply put the converts are not replacing those we loose through death and attrition at a great enough rate to show positive growth.  What it will take is an influx of immigrants.  That's what started the Orthodox Churches on the North American soil and that's what it would take to boost the numbers again back again.  And remember those people that are often deemed cradle ethnics gave more money per family than is imaginable.  I certainly don't see the money coming in from today's families who have less children and more disposable income than their parents did.  So dwindling population equals dwindling contributions to the local parish and the diocese.  That means less resources to properly run a church with less outreach and monies for mission work at home. It means some churches have to hold services with limited heat during the winter.  It means less money to pay the priest and his family or to even give him health insurance. The list goes on. We'll always be a mission church seeking new souls to join us but we'll be an even poorer mission church who has to face the battle with less people joining and having less children and donating less to the churches.  Yes mission work at home not 2-5k luxury one week trips to a far flung region of the world to perform some Orthodox mission far away.  I'm talking down home backyard Matthew 25 mission work.  
We need to focus on making Orthodoxy work and stop fighting about inconsequential issues on pews and headscarves.  We all need to be living the message daily and supporting our local churches.  Yes local church not the one that has better coffee hour that is 45 minutes away.  But the parish that is closest to you. 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 03:12:05 PM by username! » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2009, 03:29:06 PM »

To build on what Pensateomnia has been saying: the numbers claiming that Orthodoxy is the fastest growing religion in the US are completely absurd and wishful thinking at best.  Outside of major immigration centres (New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Pennsylvania) Orthodox parishes are pretty few and far between.

well, if it plays in Peoria, or within a 100 mile radius thereof:
Quote
All Saints Church
Greek Orthodox Church 1812 North Prospect Rd.
Peoria, IL 61603 1 miles
Detail Map 309.682.5824
Holy Apostles Church
Orthodox Church in America 1670 W Hovey Ave
Normal, IL 61761 33 miles
Detail Map 309.268.9200
batiushka@msn.com
www.holyapostlesbn.org/
St. George Church
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of N. America 211 E Minnesota St
PO Box 143
Spring Valley, IL 61362 48 miles
Detail Map 815.664.4540
St. Anthony Church
Greek Orthodox Church 1600 So. Glenwood Avenue
Springfield, IL 62704 63 miles
Detail Map 217.522.7010
Annunciation Church
Greek Orthodox Church 570 N. Union Street
Decatur, IL 62522 68 miles
Detail Map 217.429.7023
decaturgreeks@hotmail.com
www.decaturgreeks.com/
Assumption Church
Greek Orthodox Church 4900 Kennedy Drive
East Moline, IL 61244 70 miles
Detail Map 309.792.2912
office@assumptionlink.org
www.assumptionlink.org/
St. George Church
Greek Orthodox Church 2930 31st Avenue
Rock Island, IL 61201 74 miles
Detail Map 309.786.8163
Three Hierarchs Church
Greek Orthodox Church 2010 Three Hierarchs Court
Champaign, IL 61820 83 miles
Detail Map 217.352.3452
threehierarchs@aol.com
www.threehierarchs.org/
St. Nicholas Church
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of N. America 312 W Elm St
Urbana, IL 61801 84 miles
Detail Map (217) 485-5670
www.stnicholasurbana.org/
St. Sava Church
Serbian Orthodox Church 3457 Black Rd
Joliet, IL 60433 94 miles
Detail Map 773.374.9110
St. George Church
Serbian Orthodox Church Location: 305 S Midland Ave
Mailing: 300 Stryker Ave
Joliet, IL 60436 95 miles
Detail Map 815.725.5502
Annunciation Church
Greek Orthodox Church 296 N. Washington Avenue
Kankakee, IL 60901 95 miles
Detail Map 815.933.5482
Saint Nicholas Orthodox Catholic Church
Orthodox Church in America 1018 Barber Ln
Joliet, IL 60435 95 miles
Detail Map 815.725.4742
webmaster@stnicholasjoliet.org
stnicholasjoliet.org/
St. George Church
Greek Orthodox Church 320 S. Second Street
Dekalb, IL 60115 96 miles
Detail Map 815.758.5731
All Saints Church
Greek Orthodox Church 102 North Broadway
Joliet, IL 60435 97 miles
Detail Map 815.722.1727
FrStefanos@aol.com
www.allsaintsjoliet.org/
http://orthodoxyinamerica.org/lr_v10/locator.php

Over 50 come up for Texas, not one of your "immigration centers." (or as you say, centres). Yes, still a wide mission field, nearly half a million per church.  btw, they said fastest growing, not the largest.  There is a difference, but hopefully we can close that gap.

I was suprised to go to a Greek monastery (which it turned out had a Palestinian Arab monk), about an hour from Chicago, Holy Transfiguration, that I didn't know existed:
http://www.holytransfigurationmonastery.com/

A quick look reveals we have 8 monastic establishments about an hour from Chicago (I'd been to 3).

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To put it in perspective, many of the megachurches in your respective cities likely have more members than all the local Orthodox parishes combined.

Top of the list of the American Megachurchs is Lakewood in Houston (Joel Olsteen's), with 43, 500 average attendance. Second is Second Baptist, also in Houston, where attendance drops nearly 20,000 to 23,659.  Then there is one in Georgia and then Willow Creek, the McChurch I am most familiar with (my sons called it "the church where we do not pray") with 22,500.  I know that Chicago has more Orthodox than Willow Creek (oddly and tragically enough, Willow Creek has Orthodox who attend).  I doubt if you statement will hold up to much scrutiny.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/cgi-bin/mega/db.pl?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&sb=3&so=descend

Quote
 But if people insist on the numbers game, by far and away the GOA is the largest jurisdiction in the US and I wouldn't be surprised if they have the largest (absolute) number of converts.  And of course, my point was lost on many here: for some it is sport to sit around and complain about the EP all day while absolutely refusing to take any sort of critical evaluation of the OCA, Antiochians or whoever else is the current golden boy.

Then you haven't been reading the MANY posts by OCA, Antiochians, etc. on the scandals in the OCA and SRACANA.  Maybe you should.  I am not so sure about the "far and away," particularly if the OCA and SRACANA are combined.  Not that matters much, if ethnic enclaves are what you are after.

However, you without ever meeting me, claim that I am a Protestant?  To the left of this message is my faith.  It is Orthodox.  I am baptized, chrismated and have been communed with the body and blood of Christ.  Do you disdain God's workings through the sacraments of the Church (and I am in a jurisdiction that yours is joined together with)?  Or possibly you meant that my "protestant views' such as an abhorrence of murder through abortion have yet to be worked out.  Orthodoxy does not destroy the good in whatever we have been a part of; it fulfills us. 
 
All I have to go by are your posts, and they appear to be from an evangelical Protestant of the American variety.  They are dripping with a re-worked manifest destiny (American needs an autocephalous church, why?) and the mixing of politics and religion that is popular with the American religious right (and of course if anyone disagrees with you, they disagree with God).  

LOL. And no national Orthodox Church like Constantinople (New Rome), Russia (3rd Rome), Greece (the Great Ideal), Romania (Greater Romania), Cyprus (Enosis), Alexandria (of All Africa), Antioch (of All the East) etc. ever had a manifest destiny nor mixed politics and religion, popularized an identification of creed with nationality nor claimed "treason" was an offense against God.

Where do you get your history from?
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2009, 03:31:37 PM »

All I have to go by are your posts, and they appear to be from an evangelical Protestant of the American variety.  They are dripping with a re-worked manifest destiny (American needs an autocephalous church, why?) and the mixing of politics and religion that is popular with the American religious right (and of course if anyone disagrees with you, they disagree with God).  
As if this last sentence does not ooze with mood driven generalizations?

It is based on the posts of those posting in this thread and others on the topic.  Simply search here and you'll see how to many it is entirely self evident that there be an "American" Orthodox Church.  To call this a reworked form of manifest destiny is hardly a stretch.  As for the second part, the very language of "abortionists" is taken from the American religious right.  It is a mischaracterisation (as was brought up in a thread on the politics board, not seeing a legislative / judicial fiat as the silver bullet to lower the rate of abortions is not the same as being "pro-abortion").  To cast it in such absolutist language, ipso facto (Note to moderators, does this require a translation?) makes the argument into God is on my side in politics.    
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2009, 03:47:33 PM »

LOL. And no national Orthodox Church like Constantinople (New Rome), Russia (3rd Rome), Greece (the Great Ideal), Romania (Greater Romania), Cyprus (Enosis), Alexandria (of All Africa), Antioch (of All the East) etc. ever had a manifest destiny nor mixed politics and religion, popularized an identification of creed with nationality nor claimed "treason" was an offense against God.

Where do you get your history from?

So we ought to stop striving for the New Testament ideal because of past failings? 
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2009, 03:47:57 PM »

ipso facto (Note to moderators, does this require a translation?)

It's common enough that it doesn't require translation; if anyone doesn't know it, they can google it, I'm sure.
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2009, 04:40:33 PM »

LOL. And no national Orthodox Church like Constantinople (New Rome), Russia (3rd Rome), Greece (the Great Ideal), Romania (Greater Romania), Cyprus (Enosis), Alexandria (of All Africa), Antioch (of All the East) etc. ever had a manifest destiny nor mixed politics and religion, popularized an identification of creed with nationality nor claimed "treason" was an offense against God.

Where do you get your history from?

So we ought to stop striving for the New Testament ideal because of past failings? 

That's if one assUmes that they are past "failings."

All I have to go by are your posts, and they appear to be from an evangelical Protestant of the American variety.  They are dripping with a re-worked manifest destiny (American needs an autocephalous church, why?) and the mixing of politics and religion that is popular with the American religious right (and of course if anyone disagrees with you, they disagree with God). 
As if this last sentence does not ooze with mood driven generalizations?

It is based on the posts of those posting in this thread and others on the topic.  Simply search here and you'll see how to many it is entirely self evident that there be an "American" Orthodox Church.  To call this a reworked form of manifest destiny is hardly a stretch.

No, it's a stretch how this is unlike any other Orthodox throughout the world.

Quote
As for the second part, the very language of "abortionists" is taken from the American religious right.

Ah, yes, the universal boogeyman of the liberal theologian.  What did the Church do without the American religious right?  Before the American religious right NO one banned abortion anywhere in the world. Roll Eyes

What did they call people who murdered children in the womb before the American religious right?
Quote
The Didache maintains that there is a great difference between these two ways. In an exposition of the second great commandment (”Love your neighbor as yourself”) as part of the Way of Life, the author makes a list of “thou shalt not” statements obviously modeled on, and in part quoting, the Decalogue of the Septuagint. The list of prohibitions includes murder, adultery, sodomy, fornication, theft, the use of magic and aphrodisiacs, infanticide and abortion. Literally, it declares: “Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion.” Similarly, the Epistle of Barnabas, in its practical section on the Way of Light, repeats the same words in a list of “thou shalt (not)” statements including, just before the abortion prohibition, “Thou shalt love thy neighbor more than thy own life.” The fetus is seen, not as a part of its mother, but as a neighbor. Abortion is rejected as contrary to other-centered neighbor love.

On the other hand, the Way of Death, according to the Didache, is full of cursing, murders, adulteries, idolatries, robberies and hypocrisies. It is also filled with people who are “murderers of children,” an echo of the prohibition against abortion (though it may also refer to infanticide), and “corrupters of God’s creatures,” rendered as abortuantes in a third century Latin version, reflecting knowledge of the use of the Greek term phthoreus for abortionists. The Epistle of Barnabas uses the same two phrases in its description of the way of “death eternal with punishment.” In both writings the immediate context includes both personal vices and more socially oriented evils such as turning away the needy and oppressing the afflicted.
http://incommunion.org/?p=193


Quote
It is a mischaracterisation

No, it is not.



Quote
(as was brought up in a thread on the politics board, not seeing a legislative / judicial fiat as the silver bullet to lower the rate of abortions is not the same as being "pro-abortion"). 
But thinking that that relieves us of the obligation to ban it, is the same.  At best a distinction witout a difference.

Quote
To cast it in such absolutist language, ipso facto (Note to moderators, does this require a translation?) makes the argument into God is on my side in politics.

And so He is.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 05:06:58 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2009, 10:48:36 AM »

All I have to go by are your posts, and they appear to be from an evangelical Protestant of the American variety.  They are dripping with a re-worked manifest destiny (American needs an autocephalous church, why?) and the mixing of politics and religion that is popular with the American religious right (and of course if anyone disagrees with you, they disagree with God).  
As if this last sentence does not ooze with mood driven generalizations?

It is based on the posts of those posting in this thread and others on the topic.  Simply search here and you'll see how to many it is entirely self evident that there be an "American" Orthodox Church.  To call this a reworked form of manifest destiny is hardly a stretch.  As for the second part, the very language of "abortionists" is taken from the American religious right.  It is a mischaracterisation (as was brought up in a thread on the politics board, not seeing a legislative / judicial fiat as the silver bullet to lower the rate of abortions is not the same as being "pro-abortion").  To cast it in such absolutist language, ipso facto (Note to moderators, does this require a translation?) makes the argument into God is on my side in politics.    


I wonder if one could characerize this Holy Monk as adhering to "manifest destiny" (which I do not hold to by the way, any anglo-saxon who converts to orthodoxy surely has disavowed manifest destiny!).  Note expecially what he says about the Church in America:

http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2009/07/archimandrite-touma-bitar-on.html

Second, thanks to ialmisry for posting the link to the commentary on the didache.  It was with the didache in mind that I chose the word "abortionist".  May God direct our minds away from false political divisions, and toward the Scriptures and the Holy Fathers.
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