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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 218558 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #765 on: June 02, 2009, 12:22:35 PM »

Dear FatherHLL and PoorFoolNicholas,

I agree with both of you on this. I am personally pursuing this argument because of academic/intellectual interest and a (waning) hope to persuade the other side to come to the Light Side.  Cheesy

On the other hand, the approach one takes to such issues may be more important than the issues themselves. I do not mean to so characterize traditionalists but at times they seem to have a mindless adherence to the faith and practices as they have received them, like in the Protestant hymn "Old Time Religion":

"Now it's good for our fathers
it was good for our fathers
It was good for our fathers
and it's good enough for me"

In a way, this is a continuation of Father Schmemann's life-long struggle for Orthodox people to discriminate between traditions with a capital T from those that are with a small "t," or mere practices/barnacles that have formed on the outside of our ship's hull during our 2,000 years at sea.

In another way, this is also related to the problem with authority that we seem to have in the Church. On the one side, we have folks like me who place the Holy Scriptures at the very top, followed by the dogmatic pronouncements of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the Holy canons, our divine services themselves, and the writings of the Holy fathers (with the earliest being more authoritative than the latest). On the other side, we have folks who attribute the highest authority to be the Mind of the Church, primarily determined by received beliefs and practices. When I read or listen to the adherents of the second approach, I find myself unable to reject outright the concept of the Mind of the Church, that is the continual working of the Holy Spirit in our Church. Who am I to summarily dismiss such argumentation? However, I also find that the second approach relies almost exclusively on the views of particular saints or scholars. The danger here is the emulation of the Protestant practice of picking one's authority(s) to bolster one's own preformed theory.

So, I think this discussion on the calendar is in reality a proxy for the conflicting approaches and thus collaterally useful.
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« Reply #766 on: June 02, 2009, 12:31:18 PM »

Dear Orthodox Lurker,

I am glad that you will continue the discussion with your side of the scientific accuracy of the competing calendars.

I did not quite get what you were saying regarding the Nicene Fathers inability to express themselves, in as much as their position is derived from secondary sources and not directly from them.

Nonetheless, the following observation on your part kind of bothered me: "Sorry, all historical evidence I've seen was javascript enabled calculator. That's not a historical evidence IMHO." I think that is a flippant attitude because the tables that were provided came from some poor soul scientifically calculating those dates. The burden is on you not to dismiss the labor of others but to prove their figures wrong by showing us your own scientifically calculated figures. That is the least that one can expect in a rational discourse. Please do not cheapen it by being so dismissive and flippant.
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« Reply #767 on: June 02, 2009, 12:35:12 PM »

Indeed it is unfortunate that the calendar issue has caused division in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I will never quite understand how parts of the Church can go to the Julian during the Paschal season and then revert back to the Gregorian. If only all the Churches would have stayed on the Julian.  Cry

Can you say Meletios Metaxakis?
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« Reply #768 on: June 02, 2009, 01:03:25 PM »

Why can't another Calendar be devised? How about another Ecumenical Council to deal with the creation of a "perfect, or as close to perfect as one can get", Calendar for the whole Church worldwide? Am I missing something?
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« Reply #769 on: June 02, 2009, 01:06:05 PM »

Has anyone read this article?

Patronal Feast Day at the Monastery of the Sacred and Life-giving Calendar
May, 2009

The Sacred Cenobitic Stavropegial Hesychastic Apophatic Peripatetic Monastery of the Sacred and Life-Giving Calendar is located on the Greek Island of Periphrenitis, just off the Golden Horn. On April 1 (Orthodox Style) the community celebrates its patronal feast: The Universal Exaltation of the Sacred and Life-Giving Calendar. Two years ago, the monastery became the site of the historic 24th Ecumenical Council, where the heresy of the Pseudo-Neo-Julian (but really papal-filioquist) Calendar was anathematized along with several of the community's neighbors.

The celebration is attended by faithful from all around the globe, who travel great distances to pray at the world's only Orthodox monastery. This year the number of worshippers is so great that the brotherhood is contemplating the construction of an addition to the chapel, currently located in a garage. Dr. Vladislav Morass, author of numerous definitive Orthodox theological books and articles, was recently baptized at the monastery. "I'm so glad to have finally found the true Church," he said.

The service of the All-night Vigil culminates with the singing of the newly-composed Akathist Hymn to Sacred and Life-Giving Calendar. Wafting through the windows along with clouds of incense, the heart-rending strains of the hymn can be heard throughout the streets of Periphrenitis: Rejoice, thou who containest twelve months! Rejoice, thou who truly hast 365 days! Rejoice, (except for on leap year, which is calculated without regard for the deceptive and apostate motions of this vain world)! Rejoice, for thou preservest the Patristic Astronomy! Rejoice, for thou disregardest the sophistries of the papal astronomers! Rejoice, firm bulwark against the filioque, which is implicit in Latin astronomy! Rejoice, thou who grantest unto the faithful cheaper egg nog! (etc, etc)

When asked whether the community's stance on the calendar change of the 1920's had not degenerated into "hemerologolatry" Abbot Exacustodian [Throckmorton, PhD,BS,MDA,ATM,DDT] replied in the negative: "Only someone infected with the false western pagan phronema of the platonized Franks could think such a thing. This is what happens to those who have not been illuminated, and yet try to examine the calendrical mysteries with their fallen minds. And to think that this sort of thinking goes by the name of 'common sense' in our day! Of course we do not worship the calendar. Rather, we honor the calendar with a relative veneration. This veneration passes over to the prototype of calendars -- the form of the calendar if you will, which is an image of the True Calendar, which is an image of Eternity. How can we expect to arrive in Eternity if we do not venerate the correct calendar? How can we discern the signs of the times if we don't what time it is? Woe to you, Jerusalem, for you have missed the time of your visitation by thirteen days. Truly, those who venerate a different calendar have fallen into darkness and shall perish eternally, along with most of the people praying here tonight."

But one source of grief overshadows the celebrations this year, and that is the recent loss of communion with the neighboring community of the Four Holy Bodily Humors, a brotherhood dedicated to the faithful preservation of the Patristic Biology, without which, according to Abbot Pansophistikos [Himerologitis], the Orthodox mindset cannot be preserved in this age of apostasy. Fr. Pansophistikos is celebrating the Feast of the Calendar in his own chapel this year, together with faithful from almost every hemisphere.

Pansophistikos regrets the recent separation, but says that it couldn't be helped. "We had a good relationship with them, but the Abbot fell into such delusion that he stopped saying 'te-ri-rem.' Now none of the monks there say 'te-ri-rem' according to the revealed and Apostolic tradition of saying 'te-ri-rem.' How do they expect to get through the aerial tollhouses without saying 'te-ri-rem?' But we shall keep the traditions of the Fathers without addition or subtraction. Keeping them without astronomy is not enough."

http://www.theoniondome.com/2009/05/guest/
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« Reply #770 on: June 02, 2009, 01:07:55 PM »

UHHHHHH...isn't that a COMEDY site?
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« Reply #771 on: June 02, 2009, 01:10:40 PM »


Of course it is. 
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« Reply #772 on: June 02, 2009, 01:58:57 PM »

...

Can you say Meletios Metaxakis?

Mekletios Mrtaxakis.

Cheesy
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« Reply #773 on: June 02, 2009, 02:03:17 PM »

Indeed it is unfortunate that the calendar issue has caused division in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I will never quite understand how parts of the Church can go to the Julian during the Paschal season and then revert back to the Gregorian. If only all the Churches would have stayed on the Julian.  Cry

Can you say Meletios Metaxakis?

Title, please. He was the Patriarch of Constantinople, Internet opinions of him notwithstanding.
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« Reply #774 on: June 02, 2009, 02:06:15 PM »

...
I think that is a flippant attitude because the tables that were provided came from some poor soul scientifically calculating those dates. The burden is on you not to dismiss the labor of others but to prove their figures wrong by showing us your own scientifically calculated figures.
...

Sorry, Second Chance, but calculation according to the algorytam(sp?) still isn't proof that the Church actually violated her own rule and celebrated Pascha before Passover on the said year.

BTW, there is a program under GPL license calculating julian calendar dates that anyone can publish on a web pages.
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« Reply #775 on: June 02, 2009, 02:33:08 PM »

Sincerely I don't get why New Calendarists tend to impose this innovation to the Old calendarists. I totally agree with you when you say that the calendar issue is not so important, but I also find myself contrary to the idea that it's the Old Calendarists who resist this innovation. on one side you say OCs discriminate NCs sometimes as heretic, but on the other side you accuse OCs to be not "in line" with the rest of Orthodoxy, which is false. If you consider the number of autocephalous churches following the two calendars, you'll realize that it's half one side and half the other; and if you look to the number of faithful in the churches following the Old Calendar (especially the Moscow Patriarchate) it will be evident that they're still the majority of Orthodoxy! The fact that the Patriarch of Constantinople adopts it truly means nothing... he's not infallible! He's just a man....
On the issue of Ecumenical Councils, I think the problem is that since 1054 no valid Ecumenical Council would be held. Only a few Orthodox will reply stating that the post-schism Palamite Council was "Ecumenical". To me the last EC was Constantinople IV which received Papal approvation before the Schism (at the time of pope st. John VIII). The See of Rome is technically vacant since the excommunication of 1054. The Pope was one of the patriarchs instituted by the Canons to be decisive in the Councils. Maybe we should take in consideration to summon an elective council for the inthronization of an Orthodox Pope... laugh
I was just provocating. Sincerely i think no ecumenical council would be necessary. We just should keep us as rigorously faithful to our forefathers in the faith as we can... I don't support those who prefer Schism then accepting the New Calendar in other sister churches, but I can't also accept any attempt to impose the Gregorian style to the Julian style churches.
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« Reply #776 on: June 02, 2009, 02:45:57 PM »

^ Well said. It is somewhat hypocritical of those who claim changing the calendar is no big deal to want others to change too. In Springfield, there is one new calendar church and one on the old calendar. We do things together, and it really doesn't make a different except for the couple of weeks on either side of the fasts. Even then, it only really affects social hour when half of us eat meat and the other half do not. To my knowledge, it hasn't been a problem for any of us.
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« Reply #777 on: June 02, 2009, 02:47:24 PM »

What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #778 on: June 02, 2009, 03:04:38 PM »

...
I think that is a flippant attitude because the tables that were provided came from some poor soul scientifically calculating those dates. The burden is on you not to dismiss the labor of others but to prove their figures wrong by showing us your own scientifically calculated figures.
...

Sorry, Second Chance, but calculation according to the algorytam(sp?) still isn't proof that the Church actually violated her own rule and celebrated Pascha before Passover on the said year.

What the algorithm does is to place the date of the Pascha and passover on the respective calendars in accordance with the corresponding rules. So, to make sure I understand you correctly, you are saying that this particular algorithm may not have adjusted the INITIAL date calculations to take into account your interpretation of "not with the Jews" ? You may well be right in this and I suppose the only way that we can make sure, in way or the other, would be to find an contemporaneous historical account that backs up one or the other interpretation.
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« Reply #779 on: June 02, 2009, 03:22:04 PM »

IIRC, all monasteries on Mt. Athos but one are Old Calendar, and one is Old Calendarist-schism type.
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« Reply #780 on: June 02, 2009, 03:31:34 PM »

IIRC, all monasteries on Mt. Athos but one are Old Calendar, and one is Old Calendarist-schism type.

Keep in mind that people from that "schism-type" post on this forum. You are free to your opinions, but we have a pan-Orthodox thing going on here that includes Eastern Orthodox New Calendar, Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists, and Non-Chalcedonians. We refrain from labeling as much as possible in the public forum (private sections by subscription differ) in order to facilitate discussion that would break down if we were always labeling the other two groups schismatics or heretics. You could just as easily get your point across by saying 19 are commemorators and 1 is not, or you could even say, "are considered schismatic by the other 19."
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« Reply #781 on: June 02, 2009, 03:49:08 PM »

My point is that the Canons of the Apostoles were known to Nicene Fathers as Tradition handed down to them orally.
Maybe a safe assumption, but can you prove that this is the case?

Therefore, Nicene Fathers either:

a) agreed with the decree of Emperor Constantine and Apostolic Canon, with regard to specific heresy of Christians - Ebionites known to be in existence of that period, and stood for separation of that heresy in celebrating Pascha;

or

b) didn't know / disagree with the decree made by Emperor on their behalf as well as Apostolic Canon with regard to the specific heresy of Christians - Ebionites and stood just for astronomical "scientific" accuracy to that extent that they laid down the rules to celebrate Pascha:

b.1) after the first full moon (astronomical, scientific fact)

b.2) after the vernal equinox (astronomical, scientific fact)

b.3) confirmed separation only from scientific calculation of Passover made by Judaists, and not theologically and spiritually.
I'm concerned, though, that you may be giving us limited data and may be setting up an artificial "either/or" dichotomy based on this limited data.  What other factors, if any, did the Nicene Fathers have to consider when they formulated their Paschal rules?

The practice of the Church, Balsamon, Blastaris, Milas, as well as a number of other canonist and theologians stand for a). I stand with them.
But were Balsamon, Blastaris, Milas, and the many other canonists you cite infallible?  Can we cross-reference their interpretations of Nicea against the actual Nicene tradition?  Or are we constrained to see these canonists as the authoritative interpreters of this tradition?

You stand to b) with your understanding of Archb. Peter's article. However, he treated the text of the canons of Nicea, and not what's believed by Nicene Fathers. Such a stance is fundamentally flawed.
Again, how do you know that what you present here as "that which was believed by the Nicene Fathers" really was the beliefs and doctrines of these Fathers?  Is there any evidence that Balsamon, Blastaris, Milas, and the other canonists represented a tradition preserved in the Church from Nicea to their day, or were they merely presenting their own scholarly interpretations of the Apostolic Canon #7 and the Nicene Formula?  Your continued assertion that these canonists represented an existing consensus tradition is itself a thesis that begs the question.
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« Reply #782 on: June 02, 2009, 03:52:40 PM »

Dear AlexanderOfBergamo and ytterbiumanalyst,

I have a feeling that we would all agree that one church should not force another to do anything. I, for one, am sold on the ecclesiastical model of Saint Ignatius, the third Patriarch of Antioch--that of a loose world-wide federation of independent and strong local churches.

I have a feeling that we would all agree that the differences in the calendars should not be any kind of obstacle to inter-communion between the local churches.

I hope that we agree not to approve of any attempt to classify as heretical either party and not to encourage any schisms inside any local church.

Finally, I hope that attempts to dialogue on this issue are not construed as efforts to impose one's views on the other.

BTW, I am not familiar of any local schisms by the NC when a local church went OC, are you?
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« Reply #783 on: June 02, 2009, 03:58:42 PM »

What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?
Why do you ask?  Are the monks of the Holy Mountain infallible?
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« Reply #784 on: June 02, 2009, 04:01:33 PM »

Huh
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« Reply #785 on: June 02, 2009, 04:12:05 PM »

What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?


There are at least two resolutions of Mount Athos, requesting suspenssion of New Calendar until Pan-Orthodox Council (and not a commission, or other unknown body) decides to introduce it and until all Churches apply such a decision.

The resolutions have been ignored for about 80 years.

19 Monasteries are Church calendar, Esphigmenou ceased commemoration of EP.

Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.
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« Reply #786 on: June 02, 2009, 04:44:50 PM »

forgive me Fr. Anastasios, im a fairly new poster around here. for what its worth, im fairly sympathetic of the Old Calendar cause!
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« Reply #787 on: June 02, 2009, 04:53:00 PM »

What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?


Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.

Really? I never knew that Vatopedi was new calendar. That's a little strange.
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« Reply #788 on: June 02, 2009, 05:24:41 PM »

What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?


Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.

Really? I never knew that Vatopedi was new calendar. That's a little strange.

They switched back eventually.
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« Reply #789 on: June 02, 2009, 05:26:32 PM »

forgive me Fr. Anastasios, im a fairly new poster around here. for what its worth, im fairly sympathetic of the Old Calendar cause!

It's fine. We have a tough job facilitating discussion in "mixed company" so hence some of the rules that seem arbitrary to some. They are the result of years of trial and error.
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« Reply #790 on: June 02, 2009, 05:35:25 PM »

What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?


Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.

Really? I never knew that Vatopedi was new calendar. That's a little strange.

They switched back eventually.

Ah, I see now.
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« Reply #791 on: June 03, 2009, 08:24:51 AM »

Title, please. He was the Patriarch of Constantinople, Internet opinions of him notwithstanding.

My apologies.
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« Reply #792 on: June 03, 2009, 08:25:50 AM »

What do the monks of Mt Athos have to say about the calendar issue?


There are at least two resolutions of Mount Athos, requesting suspenssion of New Calendar until Pan-Orthodox Council (and not a commission, or other unknown body) decides to introduce it and until all Churches apply such a decision.

The resolutions have been ignored for about 80 years.

19 Monasteries are Church calendar, Esphigmenou ceased commemoration of EP.

Vatopedi switched to New Calendar sometime in 1970's I believe.

Thank you for this information Orthodoxlurker.  Smiley
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« Reply #793 on: August 01, 2009, 01:27:03 AM »

CONTEXT NOTE:  The following recurrence of this discussion split off from here:  Old Calendarist Churches ,"World Orthodoxy", and Maximos the Confessor  I did the best I could to make a clear distinction between this discussion and its parent, but there are still a lot of overlapping cross-currents, which may be confusing to some.  Please accept my humble apologies for this.   -PtA



who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?

The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy. 

None of the patriarchies, autocephalies or autonomies has made a statement that the New Calendar is errant.  Quite the contrary.  Within universal Orthodoxy those who keep the New Calendar and those who keep the Old enjoy full intercommunion and preserve the bond of love among themselves.
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« Reply #794 on: August 01, 2009, 01:53:21 AM »

...
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583? 
...

We only need to hear what kind of "canon" is apt to be established by the type of document named Sigillion.

What does Sigillion means, does someone know?
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« Reply #795 on: August 01, 2009, 02:09:44 AM »

[who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583? 

Dear Peter,

There is not much need to make any interpretation of the decisions of the Sigillion of 1583.  Its language is straightforward enough.

I don't know if you are in an Old Calendar or New Calendar parish, but the Sigillion is clear that those who do not follow the Old Calendar Menologion are anathema and have to be cast out of the Church.

"7) That whoever does not follow the customs of the Church as the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils decreed, and Holy Pascha, and the Menologion with which they did well in making it a law that we should follow it, and wishes to follow the newly-invented Paschalion and the New Menologion of the atheist astronomers of the Pope, and opposes all those things and wishes to overthrow and destroy the dogmas and customs of the Church which have been handed down by our fathers, let him suffer anathema and be put out of the Church of Christ and out of the Congregation of the Faithful."

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sigillion_of_1583
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« Reply #796 on: August 01, 2009, 02:10:41 AM »


who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?

The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy. 

None of the patriarchies, autocephalies or autonomies has made a statement that the New Calendar is errant.  Quite the contrary.  Within universal Orthodoxy those who keep the New Calendar and those who keep the Old enjoy full intercommunion and preserve the bond of love among themselves.
Of course!  All those who don't believe the New Calendar to be an error don't believe the New Calendar to be an error.  You've conveniently excluded all those Orthodox who DO believe the New Calendar to be an error.  What does that prove?
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« Reply #797 on: August 01, 2009, 02:15:15 AM »

[who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583? 

Dear Peter,

There is not much need to make any interpretation of the decisions of the Sigillion of 1583.  Its language is straightforward enough.

I don't know if you are in an Old Calendar or New Calendar parish, but the Sigillion is clear that those who do not follow the Old Calendar Menologion are anathema and have to be cast out of the Church.
Kinda defeats your argument that the New Calendar is not an error, doesn't it. Wink
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« Reply #798 on: August 01, 2009, 02:15:52 AM »

The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy. 

None of the patriarchies, autocephalies or autonomies has made a statement that the New Calendar is errant.  Quite the contrary.  Within universal Orthodoxy those who keep the New Calendar and those who keep the Old enjoy full intercommunion and preserve the bond of love among themselves.
Of course!  All those who don't believe the New Calendar to be an error don't believe the New Calendar to be an error.  You've conveniently excluded all those Orthodox who DO believe the New Calendar to be an error.  What does that prove?

You are right.  I know that Archbishop Maelruain of the Celtic Orthodox Church is quite fierce about believing the New Calendar to be an error.  He is more mild than the majority of Old Calendarists though, in that he does not see the New Calendar as a heresy and the New Calendarists are not, in his charitable opinion, bound for damnation unless they repent and adopt the Old Calendar.
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« Reply #799 on: August 01, 2009, 02:19:12 AM »


who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?

The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy.
As you define it...  Again, a vague concept at the mercy of a very subjective perception...
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« Reply #800 on: August 01, 2009, 02:21:12 AM »

[who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583? 

Dear Peter,

There is not much need to make any i
The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy. 

None of the patriarchies, autocephalies or autonomies has made a statement that the New Calendar is errant.  Quite the contrary.  Within universal Orthodoxy those who keep the New Calendar and those who keep the Old enjoy full intercommunion and preserve the bond of love among themselves.
Of course!  All those who don't believe the New Calendar to be an error don't believe the New Calendar to be an error.  You've conveniently excluded all those Orthodox who DO believe the New Calendar to be an error.  What does that prove?

You are right.  I know that Archbishop Maelruain of the Celtic Orthodox Church is quite fierce about believing the New Calendar to be an error.  He is more mild than the majority of Old Calendarists though, in that he does not see the New Calendar as a heresy and the New Calendarists are not, in his charitable opinion, bound for damnation unless they repent and adopt the Old Calendar.nterpretation of the decisions of the Sigillion of 1583.  Its language is straightforward enough.

I don't know if you are in an Old Calendar or New Calendar parish, but the Sigillion is clear that those who do not follow the Old Calendar Menologion are anathema and have to be cast out of the Church.
Kinda defeats your argument that the New Calendar is not an error, doesn't it. Wink

No.  This Sigillion was penned by only three Greek Patriarchs, Constantinople and its suffrgan Patriarchates, Alexandria and Jerusalem.

It has no universal authority within Orthodoxy, no more than the Russian Councils of the same period which, for example, forbid the baptism of Roman Catholic converts.
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« Reply #801 on: August 01, 2009, 02:25:03 AM »


who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?

The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy.
As you define it...  Again, a vague concept at the mercy of a very subjective perception...

Then please remove the subjectivity.  Inform us which Orthodox Churches have condemned the New Calendar and view those who use it as heretics.
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« Reply #802 on: August 01, 2009, 03:00:16 AM »


who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?

The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy.
As you define it...  Again, a vague concept at the mercy of a very subjective perception...

Then please remove the subjectivity.  Inform us which Orthodox Churches have condemned the New Calendar and view those who use it as heretics.
Nah!  You're the one who cited the authority of a vague "pleroma of Orthodoxy" as evidence of your thesis.  It's up to you to defend your reliance upon that argument.

Besides, it already looks as if you've made acceptance of the New Calendar the definition of Orthodoxy, such that those who condemn the New Calendar place themselves outside the Church by their very act of condemning the New Calendar and are therefore to be ignored as schismatics.  How can anyone argue with you when you stack the deck in that way?
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« Reply #803 on: August 01, 2009, 03:26:26 AM »


who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?

The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy.
As you define it...  Again, a vague concept at the mercy of a very subjective perception...

Then please remove the subjectivity.  Inform us which Orthodox Churches have condemned the New Calendar and view those who use it as heretics.
Nah!  You're the one who cited the authority of a vague "pleroma of Orthodoxy" as evidence of your thesis.  It's up to you to defend your reliance upon that argument.

I swear with hand on Cross and Gospel that I am unaware of any Patriarchate, any autocephalous Church or any autonomous Church which has condemned the New Calendar.   That is probably as far as I can go in proving what is,  after all, a negative.  Absolute lack of evidence to the contrary suffices. 

Quote
Besides, it already looks as if you've made acceptance of the New Calendar the definition of Orthodoxy

HUH?!   I have spent my life in Old Calendar Churches - Serbia and the Russian Church.  Why on earth would I adopt a defintion which would exclude me from Orthodoxy?!

Quote
, such that those who condemn the New Calendar place themselves outside the Church by their very act of condemning the New Calendar and are therefore to be ignored as schismatics.  How can anyone argue with you when you stack the deck in that way?

Haven't got any idea what you are driving at.  Maybe if you were to inform us which Orthodox Churches have condemned the New Calendar and view those who use it as heretics the discussion could proceed.
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« Reply #804 on: August 01, 2009, 03:39:54 AM »


who, though he be an Athonite elder, repeats the error of the calendar, and the hierarchs who use it, as being heretical.
Error or merely a different interpretation of the canons, particularly the Sigillion of 1583?  If belief in the heretical nature of the New Calendar is an error, against what authority is it errant?

The authority of the pleroma of Orthodoxy.
As you define it...  Again, a vague concept at the mercy of a very subjective perception...

Then please remove the subjectivity.  Inform us which Orthodox Churches have condemned the New Calendar and view those who use it as heretics.
Nah!  You're the one who cited the authority of a vague "pleroma of Orthodoxy" as evidence of your thesis.  It's up to you to defend your reliance upon that argument.

I swear with hand on Cross and Gospel that I am unaware of any Patriarchate, any autocephalous Church or any autonomous Church which has condemned the New Calendar.   That is probably as far as I can go in proving what is,  after all, a negative.  Absolute lack of evidence to the contrary suffices. 

Quote
Besides, it already looks as if you've made acceptance of the New Calendar the definition of Orthodoxy

HUH?!   I have spent my life in Old Calendar Churches - Serbia and the Russian Church.  Why on earth would I adopt a defintion which would exclude me from Orthodoxy?!
Maybe I should clarify what I mean by "acceptance of the New Calendar", since I didn't mean that you must join a New Calendar church to be Orthodox--heck, one of my housemates goes to an Old Calendar church, yet I don't think any less of his church's Orthodoxy.  What I mean by "acceptance of the New Calendar" is acceptance of the New Calendar's legitimacy and refusal to condemn it even if one chooses to continue using the Old Calendar.

Quote
, such that those who condemn the New Calendar place themselves outside the Church by their very act of condemning the New Calendar and are therefore to be ignored as schismatics.  How can anyone argue with you when you stack the deck in that way?

Haven't got any idea what you are driving at.  Maybe if you were to inform us which Orthodox Churches have condemned the New Calendar and view those who use it as heretics the discussion could proceed.

What I'm driving at is that you ignore the witness of those who disagree with you (i.e., those who condemn the New Calendar) and cite as authoritative the unanimous witness of those who agree with you.  By definition, this is the logical fallacy known as "stacking the deck".


For the record, the owner of this web site is a priest of an Orthodox church that condemns the New Calendar.
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« Reply #805 on: August 01, 2009, 04:37:15 AM »

  What I mean by "acceptance of the New Calendar" is acceptance of the New Calendar's legitimacy and refusal to condemn it even if one chooses to continue using the Old Calendar.

But as I have pointed out, (maybe I wasn't clear) this *is* the position of the Orthodox Church.  Both those on the New Calendar and those on the Old are in communion.  None of our Old Calendar Churches (Jerusalem, Russia, Sinai, Serbia)  have condemned the New Calendar.

Quote
What I'm driving at is that you ignore the witness of those who disagree with you (i.e., those who condemn the New Calendar) and cite as authoritative the unanimous witness of those who agree with you.  By definition, this is the logical fallacy known as "stacking the deck".

The only witness I will admit as meaningful is that of the Orthodox Church, and I define that as the Patriarchies, the autocephalies and the autonomies which maintain communion with one another.  If that is "stacking the deck" so be it.  My "deck" cannot but lie with the canonical bishops of the Orthodox Church.  Other witness and opinions, whether from the Celtic Orthodox Church or the Russian Zarist Church, have little relevance.

Quote
For the record, the owner of this web site is a priest of an Orthodox church that condemns the New Calendar.

I believe his Church goes further than that.  Jonathan has referenced their 1935 "Confession of Faith" which specifically condemns the Church of Greece as s----- (the now unwelcome s word) and denies that any of its Mysteries have grace.(1) Most of Greece is simply unbaptized in their eyes.  Tomorrow all the Greek priests will be placing in the mouths of the faithful simply soggy bread on a spoon, nothing more.  It seems quite shocking, I know, but that is what it means to say,  as their "Confession of Faith" does, that the Greek Church has no "sanctifying grace."  Quite a tough call by the Old Calendarists.  Should the Old Calendarists have renounced this tough stance in their "Confession of Faith" I would welcome the news with great joy from Fr Anastasios or Jonathan.

Jonathan has also said that in 1974 their Church anathematized all New Calendarists.(2)   

(1)  http://www.ecclesiagoc.gr/e_index.htm (look under "History")

(2)"The New Calendarists did, however, when they changed the calendar and fell under the anathemas against the Western menologion. That is the position we hold, as stated in our confession of faith (see previous link)."

"the 1974 declaration anathematizing the new calendarists (which itself only repeated our position of 1935)."
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« Reply #806 on: August 01, 2009, 05:46:25 AM »

Quote
What I'm driving at is that you ignore the witness of those who disagree with you (i.e., those who condemn the New Calendar) and cite as authoritative the unanimous witness of those who agree with you.  By definition, this is the logical fallacy known as "stacking the deck".

The only witness I will admit as meaningful is that of the Orthodox Church, and I define that as the Patriarchies, the autocephalies and the autonomies which maintain communion with one another.  If that is "stacking the deck" so be it.  My "deck" cannot but lie with the canonical bishops of the Orthodox Church.  Other witness and opinions, whether from the Celtic Orthodox Church or the Russian Zarist Church, have little relevance.
At least you're honest.  Your faulty logic does absolutely nothing to prove (to anyone but yourself) your original claim that the New Calendar is not in error, but at least you're honest. Tongue
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« Reply #807 on: August 01, 2009, 06:08:05 AM »

Quote
What I'm driving at is that you ignore the witness of those who disagree with you (i.e., those who condemn the New Calendar) and cite as authoritative the unanimous witness of those who agree with you.  By definition, this is the logical fallacy known as "stacking the deck".

The only witness I will admit as meaningful is that of the Orthodox Church, and I define that as the Patriarchies, the autocephalies and the autonomies which maintain communion with one another.  If that is "stacking the deck" so be it.  My "deck" cannot but lie with the canonical bishops of the Orthodox Church.  Other witness and opinions, whether from the Celtic Orthodox Church or the Russian Zarist Church, have little relevance.
At least you're honest.  Your faulty logic does absolutely nothing to prove (to anyone but yourself) your original claim that the New Calendar is not in error, but at least you're honest. Tongue

I find it hard to believe that you reject the unanimous witness of the pleroma of the Church as "faulty logic."

As I've said, it doesn't matter much to me what the Russian Zarist Church people say, nor the Celtic Orthodox, nor the Byzantine Catholics nor the Orthodox Church of the Gauls.  What I heed is the unanimous voice of thousands of Orthodox bishops in communion in Christ across all the Patriarchates and other Churches.   

I'm curious.  With whom do you agree? And why?
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« Reply #808 on: August 01, 2009, 06:20:33 AM »

"7) That whoever does not follow the customs of the Church as the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils decreed, and Holy Pascha, and the Menologion with which they did well in making it a law that we should follow it, and wishes to follow the newly-invented Paschalion and the New Menologion of the atheist astronomers of the Pope, and opposes all those things and wishes to overthrow and destroy the dogmas and customs of the Church which have been handed down by our fathers, let him suffer anathema and be put out of the Church of Christ and out of the Congregation of the Faithful."

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sigillion_of_1583


For those who would like to follow the logic that this anathema of the 1583 Sigillion is authoritative today it should follow that the following Churches and their faithful are under anathema and have ceased to be part of the Orthodox Church.


Patriarchate of Constantinople
Patriarchate of Alexandria
Patriarchate of Antioch
Patriarchate of Romania
Patriarchate of Bulgaria
Church of Cyprus
Church of Greece
Church of Poland
Church of Albania
Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia
Orthodox Church in America


Only FOUR Churches remain in the Orthodox Church today

Patriarchate of Jerusalem
Patriarchate of Moscow
Patriarchate of Serbia
Patriarchate of Georgia

(Lucky me, I've belonged to 2 of them! :-)

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« Reply #809 on: August 01, 2009, 11:03:40 AM »

What I find questionable is that you expect us to retract our anathemas but not the New Calendarists to retract theirs. If they don't recognize us, why should we recognize them?

And do us the courtesy of reading our Proclamation and answering my question about what's wrong with our 'spirit'. Your point about how to call the Council of 1583 is irrelevant; whether or not all the Local Churches were represented, they all assented to its outcome.

Moderator, if I'm being at all unfair, please let us know.

First, explain to us the relevance, as the 1583 Council condemns the "Pope's calendar," which the revised Julian is not.

Btw, the Sigillion of 1583 itself admits it innovates:
Quote
But, lest the composition as a whole be weary to the simpler folks, we have decided to embody the matter in common language

No Father ever wrote in Common Greek (dhimotiki)
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