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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 207188 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #630 on: March 22, 2009, 04:39:31 PM »

But the fact that an arbitrary date was selected as the equinox, when in fact the fathers new it was arbitrary, shows that astronomical accuracy was not their primary concern.  Their proper concern was order and uniformity.
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« Reply #631 on: March 22, 2009, 04:43:57 PM »

Everyone knows that it's not the first Sunday after the equinox but first Sunday after 21st March by Julian. My question is: why the non-fixed feasts cannot be followed by revised-Julian? They've got absolutely nothing in common with Pascha.
I'm confused. Huh  Pascha IS a non-fixed feast.

A few arguments I've seen against the current practice in New Calendar churches of celebrating Pascha (together with the Triodion and the Pentecostarion) on the Julian "Old" Calendar and the fixed feasts of the Menaion on the Revised Julian "New" Calendar:

  • The shortening of the Apostles' Fast, sometimes to the point that the fast is eliminated altogether (i.e., when the Sunday after Pentecost follows after June 29)
  • The eventual creep of Pascha into the Revised Julian December
  • Some of the hymnography for the 40 Holy Martyrs of Sebaste (March 9) makes no sense outside of Lent.
  • Some of the hymnography for St. George (April 23) makes no sense when sung before Pascha.
  • The elimination of any possibility of celebrating Pascha together with the Annunciation (March 25), which--I've heard--makes for an exceptionally joyous Pascha celebration

For more information on what I'm talking about, click the following link:  http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/calsci_ch9.aspx
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« Reply #632 on: March 22, 2009, 04:53:07 PM »

But the fact that an arbitrary date was selected as the equinox, when in fact the fathers new it was arbitrary, shows that astronomical accuracy was not their primary concern.  Their proper concern was order and uniformity.
This, however, runs counter to my understanding of why the same Nicene Fathers made the Church of Alexandria, the home of the Roman world's most advanced astronomical "school", the final arbiter on when Pascha would be celebrated in a given year.  The fact that the Nicene Fathers did this indicates to me that the Fathers DID consider astronomical accuracy a very important concern.
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« Reply #633 on: March 22, 2009, 04:57:57 PM »

Everyone knows that it's not the first Sunday after the equinox but first Sunday after 21st March by Julian. My question is: why the non-fixed feasts cannot be followed by revised-Julian? They've got absolutely nothing in common with Pascha.
I'm confused. Huh  Pascha IS a non-fixed feast.

I mistook these two terms, sorry.
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« Reply #634 on: March 22, 2009, 07:11:24 PM »

But the fact that an arbitrary date was selected as the equinox, when in fact the fathers new it was arbitrary, shows that astronomical accuracy was not their primary concern.  Their proper concern was order and uniformity.

No, it wasn't arbitrary.  The tropical equinox was know, and was chosen because it wasn't arbitrary, i.e. had an observable, objective reality.  They were aware of arbitrary calendars that were regressing.
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« Reply #635 on: March 22, 2009, 07:17:22 PM »

But the fact that an arbitrary date was selected as the equinox, when in fact the fathers new it was arbitrary, shows that astronomical accuracy was not their primary concern.  Their proper concern was order and uniformity.

No, it wasn't arbitrary.  The tropical equinox was know, and was chosen because it wasn't arbitrary, i.e. had an observable, objective reality.  They were aware of arbitrary calendars that were regressing.
Didn't it have something to do with the fact that the vernal equinox, which had been set to March 21 in the days of Julius Caesar, was occurring on March 25 by the time of the Nicene Council?  So, to make the Paschal calendar more astronomically correct, the Nicene Fathers reset the date of the vernal equinox back to March 21 and made the astronomical summit of the world, Alexandria, the final arbiter of the date of Pascha.
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« Reply #636 on: March 22, 2009, 08:49:22 PM »

But the fact that an arbitrary date was selected as the equinox, when in fact the fathers new it was arbitrary, shows that astronomical accuracy was not their primary concern.  Their proper concern was order and uniformity.

No, it wasn't arbitrary.  The tropical equinox was know, and was chosen because it wasn't arbitrary, i.e. had an observable, objective reality.  They were aware of arbitrary calendars that were regressing.
Didn't it have something to do with the fact that the vernal equinox, which had been set to March 21 in the days of Julius Caesar, was occurring on March 25 by the time of the Nicene Council?  So, to make the Paschal calendar more astronomically correct, the Nicene Fathers reset the date of the vernal equinox back to March 21 and made the astronomical summit of the world, Alexandria, the final arbiter of the date of Pascha.
I thought it was the opposite. Julius Caesar appointed the Equinox to be March 25th, however, by the time of the Nicean Council, the actual Astronomical Equinox was occurring on March 21st due to the progression of the Equinoxes, therefore this was determined to be the date of the March Equinox.
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« Reply #637 on: March 22, 2009, 09:00:38 PM »

But the fact that an arbitrary date was selected as the equinox, when in fact the fathers new it was arbitrary, shows that astronomical accuracy was not their primary concern.  Their proper concern was order and uniformity.

No, it wasn't arbitrary.  The tropical equinox was know, and was chosen because it wasn't arbitrary, i.e. had an observable, objective reality.  They were aware of arbitrary calendars that were regressing.
Didn't it have something to do with the fact that the vernal equinox, which had been set to March 21 in the days of Julius Caesar, was occurring on March 25 by the time of the Nicene Council?  So, to make the Paschal calendar more astronomically correct, the Nicene Fathers reset the date of the vernal equinox back to March 21 and made the astronomical summit of the world, Alexandria, the final arbiter of the date of Pascha.
I thought it was the opposite. Julius Caesar appointed the Equinox to be March 25th, however, by the time of the Nicean Council, the actual Astronomical Equinox was occurring on March 21st due to the progression of the Equinoxes, therefore this was determined to be the date of the March Equinox.
You're probably right.  I may have just had my mind in reverse.  As March 25 slides down in relation to the vernal equinox, the equinox will happen earlier and earlier in relation to March 25, thus making the vernal equinox fall on March 21 in about 400 years (after Julius Caesar, d. 44 B.C.).  Even so, my point remains the same: that the Fathers of the Council of Nicea considered astronomical correctness important enough to adjust their reckoning of the first day of [Northern Hemisphere] spring accordingly.
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« Reply #638 on: March 23, 2009, 12:24:55 AM »

But the fact that an arbitrary date was selected as the equinox, when in fact the fathers new it was arbitrary, shows that astronomical accuracy was not their primary concern.  Their proper concern was order and uniformity.

I respectfully disagree, it has always been a question of astronomical accuracy. They picked the middle value from a range of only three dates:  the vernal equinox falls on either March 20, 21, or 22, with the first two being more common. On the modern secular calendar, the vernal equinox is currently falling mainly on the 20th, while in many years of the 20th Century, it was falling mainly on the 21st.

Respectfully,
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« Reply #639 on: March 23, 2009, 08:10:20 AM »

Not that it is totally germaine, but interesting none the less, the Ottoman Constition's translation (1909 revision) says this:
Quote
Art. 41. Both houses of Parliament shall meet without being summoned on the 1st (14th) November of every year.
http://www.anayasa.gen.tr/1876constitution.htm
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« Reply #640 on: March 23, 2009, 10:40:32 AM »

I wonder what the Turkish Republic's states (and if any pressure influence had been put on Constantinople to make a change)?
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« Reply #641 on: March 23, 2009, 11:42:12 AM »

You're probably right.  I may have just had my mind in reverse.  As March 25 slides down in relation to the vernal equinox, the equinox will happen earlier and earlier in relation to March 25, thus making the vernal equinox fall on March 21 in about 400 years (after Julius Caesar, d. 44 B.C.).  Even so, my point remains the same: that the Fathers of the Council of Nicea considered astronomical correctness important enough to adjust their reckoning of the first day of [Northern Hemisphere] spring accordingly.

With the correction, you are correct. And this gets at how the Old Calendar is broken in its own terms. The Fathers of Nicea did not mention March 21 or March 25 at all. The documents which emerged from Nicea mention only the actual astronomical event of the equinox itself. That in the subsequent years, we see the churches using March 21 rather than March 25th shows that the Fathers meant, as they said, the actual equinox and not some arbitrary calendrical equinox.

The Old Calendar is broken because for quite some time it has been in violation of the ruling of Nicea. We are technically still coming after the equinox, but we could have Pascha in October and still be 'technically coming after the equinox'. If we are to actually follow the ruling of Nicea as it was written, and as it was interpreted by the bishops who were actually there in subsequent years, we need to go back to using the actual equinox for the calculation.
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« Reply #642 on: March 23, 2009, 12:31:26 PM »

You're probably right.  I may have just had my mind in reverse.  As March 25 slides down in relation to the vernal equinox, the equinox will happen earlier and earlier in relation to March 25, thus making the vernal equinox fall on March 21 in about 400 years (after Julius Caesar, d. 44 B.C.).  Even so, my point remains the same: that the Fathers of the Council of Nicea considered astronomical correctness important enough to adjust their reckoning of the first day of [Northern Hemisphere] spring accordingly.

With the correction, you are correct. And this gets at how the Old Calendar is broken in its own terms. The Fathers of Nicea did not mention March 21 or March 25 at all. The documents which emerged from Nicea mention only the actual astronomical event of the equinox itself. That in the subsequent years, we see the churches using March 21 rather than March 25th shows that the Fathers meant, as they said, the actual equinox and not some arbitrary calendrical equinox.

The Old Calendar is broken because for quite some time it has been in violation of the ruling of Nicea. We are technically still coming after the equinox, but we could have Pascha in October and still be 'technically coming after the equinox'. If we are to actually follow the ruling of Nicea as it was written, and as it was interpreted by the bishops who were actually there in subsequent years, we need to go back to using the actual equinox for the calculation.
Interesting! Cool  I'm just curious if it's possible for you to post pertinent excerpts of some of these documents here on this thread.  I would find that quite informative for this discussion.  (I've done some recent ad hoc research into the Nicene rules for when to celebrate Pascha, but I couldn't find any such documents as you cite.  I probably just didn't know where to look. Wink)
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« Reply #643 on: March 24, 2009, 05:28:50 PM »

One thing to understand is that the Jewish calendar was not calculated until at least 358, possibly later. It's possible that the modern calculation didn't start until the 800s. Part of the ante-Nicene problem, apparently, was that different communities of foreign Jews didn't follow the same rules about determining Passover; also, there is pretty good evidence that some of them followed rules which ensured that it always fell in March, which would have put it prior to the equinox in many years.

Also, the Gregorian, Julian, and Hebrew calendars drift at different rates. The Gregorian drift against the equinoctal year is minuscule; it takes 10,000 years to slip a day. The Julian drifts the fastest, while the Jewish calendar is in the middle. Therefore, the earliest possible date of Passover is drifting away from the true equinox, but not as fast as the earliest day for Julian Easter. Julian Easter always follows Passover (a) because the pattern of Jewish leap years keeps Nisan early enough, and (b) because the Julian dates are even more "wrong" than the Jewish dates. "Wrong" in this case means "picks the second full moon after the equinox, rather than the first." For example, in 2002 the Jewish date was right, but the Julian date was a month late;in 2005 both were late. The Gregorian pascalion nearly always picks the right date; I think there's some slight possibility that it could pick too early a day, but as far as I can tell this hasn't happened. However, the drift of the Jewish calendar has meant that when it picks the wrong date, it follows Gregorian Easter. However, this is OK, according to the rules. There is no rule that says that Easter has to follow Passover.
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« Reply #644 on: March 25, 2009, 11:14:45 AM »

I think many people are putting the cart before the horse. What is God-given is not a calendar but the way that He has set in motion our planet around the sun. Calendars, on the other hand, are man's attempt to put his mind around the astronomical realities ordained by God.

The vernal or spring equinox is an astronomical reality and happens once a year at the same time. So, what calendar best (not most perfectly but best) corresponds to this reality? Given a roughly 365-day year, and a year start-date of January 1, the vernal equinox falls on the 80th day of the year. (One could quibble and point out that due to our imperfections the actual date in our calendars falls in a range of dates). If you calculate from the ecclesiastical new year, the same result: the vernal equinox happens on a God-determined time during the time it takes earth to go around the sun once.

So, which calendar is now consistent with the God-ordained astronomical reality? If you measure the exact time that the vernal equinox happens (and this is possible without referrence to a calendar) and then see which calendar is closest to the astronomical date, you will immediately see that the Julian Calendar is way off (Old Julius Caesar did not know any better circa 42 BC even though the Roman Senate had just declared him a Roman deity). However, the Church fathers saw the problem and decided to mark March 21st as the date for the vernal before the situation got worse. March 21st was actually a very good guess.

In the same way, the date of Christmas may be determined. We know that the Church decided to celebrate it on December 25th or a fixed number of days after the start of the year. You could also say that December 25th falls on the sixth day before the end of the secular year (that is in most modern calendars). However, today part of the Church celebrates it in its proper astronomical date while the rest celebrates it 13 days after the proper date. That is what I am talking about: letting adherence to a man-made calendar override God-ordained astronomical realities.
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« Reply #645 on: March 25, 2009, 11:47:57 AM »

However, today part of the Church celebrates it in its proper astronomical date while the rest celebrates it 13 days after the proper date. That is what I am talking about: letting adherence to a man-made calendar override God-ordained astronomical realities.
I thought that the majority of the Orthodox Church in the world was on the Julian calendar?  Huh
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« Reply #646 on: March 25, 2009, 12:02:54 PM »

I really wish I had time to respond to all these posts... Smiley  But if I spent all my free time posting and neglected keeping the site running I imagine that would be worse Wink
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« Reply #647 on: March 25, 2009, 12:14:14 PM »

However, today part of the Church celebrates it in its proper astronomical date while the rest celebrates it 13 days after the proper date. That is what I am talking about: letting adherence to a man-made calendar override God-ordained astronomical realities.
I thought that the majority of the Orthodox Church in the world was on the Julian calendar?  Huh

Depends on how you define "majority." About half the autocephalous churches are on the RJC (or have it as an option), and the other half are on the JC (or have it as an option).  However, if you're going by population, then yes, the very clear majority are on the JC.

By the way: Second Chance's post does indeed imply that the majority are on the JC - "13 days after the proper date," and that only the minority ("part of the church") is on the "correct" date (RJC).
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« Reply #648 on: March 25, 2009, 02:19:32 PM »

However, if you're going by population, then yes, the very clear majority are on the JC.
I was thinking population.
By the way: Second Chance's post does indeed imply that the majority are on the JC - "13 days after the proper date," and that only the minority ("part of the church") is on the "correct" date (RJC).
Must have read it incorrectly.  Undecided
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« Reply #649 on: May 28, 2009, 04:38:58 PM »

Quote
The hope that all Christians will be able to celebrate Easter on the same
day in the future was reaffirmed by an international ecumenical seminar
organized by the Institute of Ecumenical Studies at the Ukrainian Catholic
University in Lviv, 15 May.

The problem is just about as old as the church itself: As Christianity
started to spread around the world, Christians came to differing results on
when to commemorate Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, due to the
different reports in the four gospels on these events.

Attempts to establish a common date for Easter began with the Council of
Nicaea in the year 325. It established that the date of Easter would be the
first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox. However, it
did not fix the methods to be used to calculate the timing of the full moon
or the vernal equinox.

Nowadays the Orthodox churches use the 21 March of the Julian calendar as
the date of the equinox, while the churches of the Western tradition � that
is the Protestant and Catholic churches � base their calculations on the
Gregorian calendar.
The resulting gap between the two Easter dates can be as much as five weeks.

All participants at the seminar in Lviv, which included Orthodox, Roman
Catholic and Protestant theologians from a variety of European countries,
endorsed a compromise proposed at a World Council of Churches (WCC)
consultation in Aleppo, Syria, in 1997. The proposal was to keep the Nicaea
rule but calculate the equinox and full moon using the accurate astronomical
data available today, rather than those used many years ago.

Concretely, participants at the seminar expressed the hope that the years
2010 and 2011, when the coincidence of the calendars will produce a common
Easter date, would serve as a period during which all Christians would join
their efforts "to make such coincidence not to be an exception but rather a
rule" and prepare for an Easter date based on exact astronomical reckoning
and celebrated by all Christians on 8 April 2012.

However, the seminar entitled "A common date for Easter is possible" did not
turn a blind eye to what participants considered to be "the main problem":
"not the calculations, but the complex relations and missing of trust among
different Christian denominations because of long divisions."

French Orthodox theologian Prof. Antoine Arjakovsky, director of the
Institute of Ecumenical Studies, pointed out: "Whilst the astronomic
reckoning of the Nicean rule comes closer to the Gregorian calendar than to
the ancient Julian one, the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches did take
a step towards the Orthodox churches in Aleppo, accepting that the date of
Easter should be established on the base of a cosmic calendar rather than by
a fixed date as had been proposed prior to the inter-Orthodox meeting in
Chamb�sy in 1977."

Other speakers at the ecumenical seminar were Rev. Dr Dagmar Heller,
professor at the Ecumenical Institute Bossey and executive secretary of the
WCC Faith and Order Commission, Jesuit Father Milan Zust, an official of the
Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, and Prof. Konstantin
Sigov, director of Saint Clement Centre in Kiev, Ukraine.

Further to the students of the Institute of Ecumenical Studies � a
consortium between the Ukrainian Catholic University, the National
University of Lviv and several other European universities � the seminar had
gathered representatives of the city's major denominations: the Ukrainian
Orthodox Churches of the patriarchates of Moscow and Kiev as well as the
Autocephalous Orthodox Church in the Ukraine, the Greek and Roman Catholic
Churches, the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Baptist and the Evangelical
Church.

source

Quite an old stuff but I finally have managed to find this in English.
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« Reply #650 on: May 28, 2009, 04:44:29 PM »

Won't happen and it shouldn't.  The rules for calculating the date of Pascha was never intended to be astronomically accurate.  It was just to set order in the Church since so many different geographic areas were celebrating our Lord's Pascha at different times.

Why celebrate the Feast of Feasts with Christians who see this day only as symbolic or as a metaphor?  For that reason, I say that we should continue to celebrate Pascha according to the calculations of the Julian Calendar.  To reverse that would mean to contravene the canons and that can only be done by Ecumenical Council.
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« Reply #651 on: May 28, 2009, 04:45:43 PM »

It was only an pan-Ukrainian meeting, nothing important. I wonder how and why it became so famous.
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« Reply #652 on: May 28, 2009, 04:53:48 PM »

Yes, but you will note that there was strong support for the Aleppo statement which was signed by the WCC, Lutheran World Federation and even some Orthodox hierarchs.  I'm sure a lot of people have forgotten about it, but this may (however unlikely) be a catalyst for bringing it to the foreground for other ecumenical relations. 
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« Reply #653 on: May 28, 2009, 08:01:28 PM »

The rules for calculating the date of Pascha was never intended to be astronomically accurate.

Sorry but it was intended to be astronomically correct. There were two canons/rules both of which set Pascha in reference to the astronomical phenomenon of the vernal equinox. In fact, the second rule set the vernal equinox on March 21st, because the astronomical phenomenon varied plus or minus a day. Some folks claim the setting of the vernal on March 21 (Julian calendar) somehow endorses the use of the Julian calendar. They are correct ONLY in the sense that the astronomical and man-made calendar coincided at that time.

It truly amazes me the great lengths we Orthodox go to preserve a pagan calendar (the Julian one) that is not accurate in placing the various feasts at their proper time. Could it be that dislike of the Roman Catholic Church is so strong or there is a corresponding Orthodox inferiority complex that is preventing us from admitting the obvious? Pope Gregory was correct in adjusting the man-made calendar to more accurately reflect the astronomical phenomena that God Himself has ordained.

Respectfully,
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« Reply #654 on: May 28, 2009, 08:43:44 PM »

The rules for calculating the date of Pascha was never intended to be astronomically accurate.

Sorry but it was intended to be astronomically correct. There were two canons/rules both of which set Pascha in reference to the astronomical phenomenon of the vernal equinox. In fact, the second rule set the vernal equinox on March 21st, because the astronomical phenomenon varied plus or minus a day. Some folks claim the setting of the vernal on March 21 (Julian calendar) somehow endorses the use of the Julian calendar. They are correct ONLY in the sense that the astronomical and man-made calendar coincided at that time.

It truly amazes me the great lengths we Orthodox go to preserve a pagan calendar (the Julian one) that is not accurate in placing the various feasts at their proper time. Could it be that dislike of the Roman Catholic Church is so strong or there is a corresponding Orthodox inferiority complex that is preventing us from admitting the obvious? Pope Gregory was correct in adjusting the man-made calendar to more accurately reflect the astronomical phenomena that God Himself has ordained.

Respectfully,

Well said.
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« Reply #655 on: May 28, 2009, 09:56:44 PM »

Won't happen and it shouldn't.  The rules for calculating the date of Pascha was never intended to be astronomically accurate.  It was just to set order in the Church since so many different geographic areas were celebrating our Lord's Pascha at different times.

Well said. The historical evidence as I have seen it backs up what you are saying.

We've had this debate several times on this forum, including one about a month and a half ago. As with most of these issues, some have one position, some have another. It seems like such a waste of time to keep going back and forth on something that the Fathers of the 16th century already addressed.
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« Reply #656 on: May 28, 2009, 09:57:46 PM »

That whenever these discussions come up, someone inevitably calls the Church Calendar pagan or claims Orthodox have an inferiority complex, seems rather unnecessary.
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« Reply #657 on: May 28, 2009, 11:08:21 PM »


Sorry but it was intended to be astronomically correct. There were two canons/rules both of which set Pascha in reference to the astronomical phenomenon of the vernal equinox. In fact, the second rule set the vernal equinox on March 21st, because the astronomical phenomenon varied plus or minus a day. Some folks claim the setting of the vernal on March 21 (Julian calendar) somehow endorses the use of the Julian calendar. They are correct ONLY in the sense that the astronomical and man-made calendar coincided at that time.

It truly amazes me the great lengths we Orthodox go to preserve a pagan calendar (the Julian one) that is not accurate in placing the various feasts at their proper time. Could it be that dislike of the Roman Catholic Church is so strong or there is a corresponding Orthodox inferiority complex that is preventing us from admitting the obvious? Pope Gregory was correct in adjusting the man-made calendar to more accurately reflect the astronomical phenomena that God Himself has ordained.

Respectfully,

Ok, perhaps intended, but let's face it that the current calendar is not "astronomically" in sync.  It failed to take into account so much of what we now know is factual concerning the earth's revolution around the sun, etc.  The purpose of setting the date of March 21 was so that everyone did it the same way not to make sure that March 21 was the actual date of the vernal equinox.

Also, the calendar is not an issue that can just be chucked as a small-t tradition.  The calendar has the backing of Ecumenical Councils.  Just because the rest of the world does their calculaations differently using a different calendar does not and should not ever be a compelling reason for us to change.  Besides, it's not a broken system.  Why do we care when everyone else celebrates their Easter?  It works, don't fix it.  Whether or not the calendar itself was a pagan calendar revised by Julius Caesar in 46 B.C. is a moot point.  Spoil the Egyptians.
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« Reply #658 on: May 29, 2009, 12:28:13 AM »

Don't want to risk losing "The Holy Fire" in Jerusalem.
Why Change Paschas date to follow the other??
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« Reply #659 on: May 29, 2009, 01:52:23 AM »

The rules for calculating the date of Pascha was never intended to be astronomically accurate.

Sorry but it was intended to be astronomically correct. There were two canons/rules both of which set Pascha in reference to the astronomical phenomenon of the vernal equinox. In fact, the second rule set the vernal equinox on March 21st, because the astronomical phenomenon varied plus or minus a day. Some folks claim the setting of the vernal on March 21 (Julian calendar) somehow endorses the use of the Julian calendar. They are correct ONLY in the sense that the astronomical and man-made calendar coincided at that time.

It truly amazes me the great lengths we Orthodox go to preserve a pagan calendar (the Julian one) that is not accurate in placing the various feasts at their proper time. Could it be that dislike of the Roman Catholic Church is so strong or there is a corresponding Orthodox inferiority complex that is preventing us from admitting the obvious? Pope Gregory was correct in adjusting the man-made calendar to more accurately reflect the astronomical phenomena that God Himself has ordained.

Respectfully,

Well said.

Certainly so.
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« Reply #660 on: May 29, 2009, 01:57:42 AM »

Personally, I am big fan of a revised Julian (New) Calendar. Something, which already successfully works for majority of Local Orthodox Churches and for majority of Orthodox Christians in this country (USA).
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« Reply #661 on: May 29, 2009, 02:05:02 AM »

Personally, I am big fan of a revised Julian (New) Calendar. Something, which already successfully works for majority of Local Orthodox Churches and for majority of Orthodox Christians in this country (USA).

Are you suggesting that the Julian (Old) Calendar cannot and will not work for Orthodox in this country?  Do Americans have to be new calendar? Does American=New Calendar?  Despite the fact that most American Orthodox are New Calendar jurisdictions, it is a fact that the majority of Orthodox in the world are Old Calendar.
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« Reply #662 on: May 29, 2009, 02:41:07 AM »


Sorry but it was intended to be astronomically correct. There were two canons/rules both of which set Pascha in reference to the astronomical phenomenon of the vernal equinox. In fact, the second rule set the vernal equinox on March 21st, because the astronomical phenomenon varied plus or minus a day. Some folks claim the setting of the vernal on March 21 (Julian calendar) somehow endorses the use of the Julian calendar. They are correct ONLY in the sense that the astronomical and man-made calendar coincided at that time.

It truly amazes me the great lengths we Orthodox go to preserve a pagan calendar (the Julian one) that is not accurate in placing the various feasts at their proper time. Could it be that dislike of the Roman Catholic Church is so strong or there is a corresponding Orthodox inferiority complex that is preventing us from admitting the obvious? Pope Gregory was correct in adjusting the man-made calendar to more accurately reflect the astronomical phenomena that God Himself has ordained.

Respectfully,

Ok, perhaps intended, but let's face it that the current calendar is not "astronomically" in sync.  It failed to take into account so much of what we now know is factual concerning the earth's revolution around the sun, etc.  The purpose of setting the date of March 21 was so that everyone did it the same way not to make sure that March 21 was the actual date of the vernal equinox.
I don't know. Undecided  I certainly don't want to ignore the evidence that suggests that the Nicene Fathers considered uniformity of practice important, but neither do I want to ignore the evidence that suggests to me that they also considered astronomical accuracy equally important.  I've already said my piece in support of the astronomical accuracy argument earlier on this thread (see Reply #251), though, so I won't belabor this point again.  I've seen many Orthodox traditionalists make the argument that the Fathers cared not for astronomical accuracy, but can anyone offer up for our review any conciliar documents that explain with clarity what the Fathers actually did consider important?  Without these, ISTM that we may all be engaging in historical revisionism and projecting onto the Nicene Fathers our own traditionalist/"modernist" world views.

Also, the calendar is not an issue that can just be chucked as a small-t tradition.  The calendar has the backing of Ecumenical Councils.
Really?  Would you care to tell us how this is so?

Just because the rest of the world does their calculaations differently using a different calendar does not and should not ever be a compelling reason for us to change.  Besides, it's not a broken system.  Why do we care when everyone else celebrates their Easter?  It works, don't fix it.
Define "works".  We celebrate Pascha after the second full moon of spring in violation of the Nicene formula for when we are to celebrate Pascha, and you say this "works"?
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« Reply #663 on: May 29, 2009, 02:56:28 AM »

Personally, I am big fan of a revised Julian (New) Calendar. Something, which already successfully works for majority of Local Orthodox Churches and for majority of Orthodox Christians in this country (USA).

Are you suggesting that the Julian (Old) Calendar cannot and will not work for Orthodox in this country?  Do Americans have to be new calendar? Does American=New Calendar?  Despite the fact that most American Orthodox are New Calendar jurisdictions, it is a fact that the majority of Orthodox in the world are Old Calendar.

Well, I am not saying that it will not work... Different calendars work within the same Diocese some times.

I am just telling my opinion about the more optimal variant of a calendar.

Does it perfectly work for most American Orthodox? Yes.

Would I love to see the majority of Orthodox parishes in my native Ukraine to accept the Revised Julian (New) Calendar? Yes.

Can different opinions on this issue exist? Yes.

You mentioned the majority of Orthodox in the world on the Old Calendar. This happens due to the situation in Moscow Patriarchate. One of the most respected and long-serving Hierarchs of Moscow Patriarchate, His Eminence Metropolitan Vladimir (Kotlyarov) of St. Petersburg supports transfer of Moscow Patriarchate to the New Calendar.
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« Reply #664 on: May 29, 2009, 03:26:24 AM »

Don't want to risk losing "The Holy Fire" in Jerusalem.
Why Change Paschas date to follow the other??

Me neither!

What a pleasant surprise to see you, bro!
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« Reply #665 on: May 29, 2009, 03:29:54 AM »

...

Ok, perhaps intended, but let's face it that the current calendar is not "astronomically" in sync.  It failed to take into account so much of what we now know is factual concerning the earth's revolution around the sun, etc.  The purpose of setting the date of March 21 was so that everyone did it the same way not to make sure that March 21 was the actual date of the vernal equinox.

Also, the calendar is not an issue that can just be chucked as a small-t tradition.  The calendar has the backing of Ecumenical Councils.  Just because the rest of the world does their calculaations differently using a different calendar does not and should not ever be a compelling reason for us to change.  Besides, it's not a broken system.  Why do we care when everyone else celebrates their Easter?  It works, don't fix it.  Whether or not the calendar itself was a pagan calendar revised by Julius Caesar in 46 B.C. is a moot point.  Spoil the Egyptians.

Well said!
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« Reply #666 on: May 29, 2009, 03:33:27 AM »

Don't want to risk losing "The Holy Fire" in Jerusalem.
Why Change Paschas date to follow the other??

If Church of Jerusalem swithched to RJ it's date would also change. It's only a sign for believers given by God. If we - members of Church of Christ - all switched to RJ it would follow us.
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« Reply #667 on: May 29, 2009, 04:03:47 AM »

Don't want to risk losing "The Holy Fire" in Jerusalem.
Why Change Paschas date to follow the other??

If Church of Jerusalem swithched to RJ it's date would also change. It's only a sign for believers given by God. If we - members of Church of Christ - all switched to RJ it would follow us.

You must be at least a prophet to claim that God would follow us wherever we go, as well as that we remain believers - "members of Church of Christi" - whatever we do.

BTW, anyone able to confirm or deny the claim that JP switched to New Calendar in 1967 and Holy Fire hasn't come that year?
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« Reply #668 on: May 29, 2009, 04:05:34 AM »

...One of the most respected and long-serving Hierarchs of Moscow Patriarchate, His Eminence Metropolitan Vladimir (Kotlyarov) of St. Petersburg supports transfer of Moscow Patriarchate to the New Calendar.

Can we have some reference to that? A link, or the title of document where he expressed such a stance?
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« Reply #669 on: May 29, 2009, 04:27:27 AM »

...

Ok, perhaps intended, but let's face it that the current calendar is not "astronomically" in sync.  It failed to take into account so much of what we now know is factual concerning the earth's revolution around the sun, etc.  The purpose of setting the date of March 21 was so that everyone did it the same way not to make sure that March 21 was the actual date of the vernal equinox.

Also, the calendar is not an issue that can just be chucked as a small-t tradition.  The calendar has the backing of Ecumenical Councils.  Just because the rest of the world does their calculaations differently using a different calendar does not and should not ever be a compelling reason for us to change.  Besides, it's not a broken system.  Why do we care when everyone else celebrates their Easter?  It works, don't fix it.  Whether or not the calendar itself was a pagan calendar revised by Julius Caesar in 46 B.C. is a moot point.  Spoil the Egyptians.

Well said!
Not if he can't back it up!
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« Reply #670 on: May 29, 2009, 04:48:39 AM »

...One of the most respected and long-serving Hierarchs of Moscow Patriarchate, His Eminence Metropolitan Vladimir (Kotlyarov) of St. Petersburg supports transfer of Moscow Patriarchate to the New Calendar.

Can we have some reference to that? A link, or the title of document where he expressed such a stance?

Sure. But the sources seem available in Russian language only. For instance: http://www.keston.org.uk/russia/articles/rr15/02mitropolit.html
Article: Per aspera ad astra: Winner of "Person of the Year 2006" Prize, Metropolitan of St. Petersburg and Ladoga Vladimir. Preliminary results of Hierarchial Term / Services in St. Petersburg by Anastasia Koskello.

Так, в самом начале своего правления во время проповеди в Иоанновском монастыре на Карповке (монастырь ставропигиальный, то есть, петербургскому митрополиту не подчиненный) он осторожно высказался за желательность введения нового стиля в церковном календаре, после чего услышал оскорбительные выкрики протеста от присутствующих на богослужении.

TRANSLATION:
So, in the very beginning of his term, during the cermon at St. Ioann Monastery in Karpovka (the Monastery is Stavropegial, so it does not subordinate to the Metropolitan of St. Petersburg), he carefully spoke in favor of a benefit of introduction of New Church Calendar. After this he heard insulting screams from persons present in the Divine Service.

END OF TRANSLATION.
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« Reply #671 on: May 29, 2009, 06:25:05 AM »

...

Ok, perhaps intended, but let's face it that the current calendar is not "astronomically" in sync.  It failed to take into account so much of what we now know is factual concerning the earth's revolution around the sun, etc.  The purpose of setting the date of March 21 was so that everyone did it the same way not to make sure that March 21 was the actual date of the vernal equinox.

Also, the calendar is not an issue that can just be chucked as a small-t tradition.  The calendar has the backing of Ecumenical Councils.  Just because the rest of the world does their calculaations differently using a different calendar does not and should not ever be a compelling reason for us to change.  Besides, it's not a broken system. 
Why do we care when everyone else celebrates their Easter?  It works, don't fix it.  Whether or not the calendar itself was a pagan calendar revised by Julius Caesar in 46 B.C. is a moot point.  Spoil the Egyptians.

Well said!
Not if he can't back it up!

Did I say it was well-said? Oh my! How mistaken was I!

It was excellent and marvelous!!!
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« Reply #672 on: May 29, 2009, 06:33:37 AM »

...
For instance: http://www.keston.org.uk/russia/articles/rr15/02mitropolit.html
Article: Per aspera ad astra: Winner of "Person of the Year 2006" Prize, Metropolitan of St. Petersburg and Ladoga Vladimir. Preliminary results of Hierarchial Term / Services in St. Petersburg by Anastasia Koskello.

He seem to be the hair of his predecessor whom has bitten the dust in front of papal shoes.

After this he heard insulting screams from persons present in the Divine Service.


Many years!

BTW, "After this he heard offensive yelling of protests from the persons present in the Divine Service." seems a more accurate translation to me.
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« Reply #673 on: May 29, 2009, 06:41:28 AM »

The rules for calculating the date of Pascha was never intended to be astronomically accurate.

Sorry but it was intended to be astronomically correct. ...

If that is your stance and reasoning, I expect you to stand for adoption of Mayan calendar in your Church.

Maya people produced the most accurate and correct calendar.

If possible, avoid worshiping their God Queckakoetel(sp?), but I guess it won't stop you from adopting their calendar. After all, it is the most accurate one, and that's what you think that Nicene Fathers wanted.

Edit: Mayan God Quetzequatal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzequatal
Mayan calendar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar
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« Reply #674 on: May 29, 2009, 07:24:43 AM »

Sincerely, my brothers and sisters, I don't understand two things in this thread that have come out in your discussions.
1) Why do you care of astronomy? The Church is not built on astronomy, but on the Canons of the Orthodox Church. We can't just "fix" them whenever we want... The canon of Nicaea I clearly states the clause "not with the Jews". Unfortunately the date of Pascha set by RC's can coincide with Jewish Pesach, so we would be in direct violation of canon law. The case of the Church of Finland can be thought of as an exception by economia due to specific local reasons and granted by the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. Actually we've got no power to change them since at the moment no panorthodox synod would be "ecumenical".
2) Why do you consider that the Julian calendar, being of "pagan" origin, is not binding for us? After all, the Gregorian Calendar was also an unorthodox invention, and can't understand on which base we should consider it more "Orthodox" and "Christian" when it comes from outside the True Faith... A calendar is just a calendar, i.e. a conventional system to calculate fixed and movable dates over the tropical year. From this point of view, the Julian Calendar and the Gregorian Calendar are equally "valid" ways to measure time. There's no reason the latter should be preferred to the former, or viceversa. In fact, our churches (except a view non-canonical churches) are in communion with each other but can follow the RJC or the JC at pleasure. The same idea that Pascha is modelled after the astronomical spring is also strange. When it's spring in the Northern hemisphere, in Australia it's actually autumn... The spring season here is just the indication of a quarter of the tropical year beginning from the conventional date of March 21st. All of the feasts were established on this calendar, and changing it at least destroys a part of our liturgical harmony.
3) The same fact that, despite the attempts to introduce the new dating system for Pascha, in the end the entire Orthodox Church never applied it, including those Churches which adopted the RJC, is to me a sufficient proof that the date of Pascha shouldn't be changed.

In Christ,   Alex
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