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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 214696 times) Average Rating: 0
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Christodoulos
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« Reply #540 on: December 08, 2007, 11:27:04 AM »

This is most baffling as two of the three administrators of this forum are Old Calenarists

God bless !

No it's not. That is meaningless. Many of the posters here are against traditional orthodoxy ! Not only against oc- for example - I am not an old calendarian.

And look how many "traditional" are warned,moderated quickly....and how people get upset when traditional orthodox posting their opinion.

In CHRIST
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 11:28:03 AM by Christodoulos » Logged
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« Reply #541 on: December 08, 2007, 12:05:38 PM »

God bless !

No it's not. That is meaningless. Many of the posters here are against traditional orthodoxy ! Not only against oc- for example - I am not an old calendarian.

And look how many "traditional" are warned,moderated quickly....and how people get upset when traditional orthodox posting their opinion.

In CHRIST 

I am going to quote for you something I said to other members of the moderation team, which some have agreed with:

Quote from: cleveland date=Dec 6, 2007
I like the fact that we have Traditionalist posters - it balances opinion on the forum.  I just wish they were better at communicating their beliefs without being rude. 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 12:06:13 PM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #542 on: December 08, 2007, 12:21:14 PM »

True, but as I said, in my experience, they are the majority in the "walled off" Churches.
Islam is persecuted in the West, Falun Gong is persecuted in China, Hinduism is persecuted in Indonesia, Jehovah's Witnesses are persecuted in Russia....being persecuted is no guarentee that you have the truth.
 You may see this, but I don't. There is not one Orthodox Internet Forum where "walled off" Old Calendarists are not welcome. If they are banned, it is because they have broken forum rules, not because they are Old Calendarists. But I do know an Orthodox Forum where New Calendarists are certainly not made to feel welcome from the outset......
People avoid "Walled off" Old Calendarists because they are not very nice people to hang around, yet I notice they have no problem coming here.

George,

I do certainly appreciate the words you said earlier about Robert and me, and I can only hope that over time, I can encourage those among my fellow OC's to join forums like this and participate in the same manner.

I do wish to point out one minor difference in experience though; I did not feel very welcome at TAW and even had a thread locked because I said that Patriarch Pavle was not Old Calendarist in the same sense that we are Old Calendarist and someone took that to mean that I was insulting the patriarch. My attempt to privately resolve the issue with assurances to the contrary were ignored. Sure, it can be chalked up to oversensitivity but I think that opposition to OCs is seen in a different way on some forums; more in terms of a subtle disdain, accusing us of a pride even before we have said anything, questioning our ability to read history, or simplistic arguments (you aren't with us, so you are graceless!)

Of course I agree with you on the contrary point, that when OCs come in guns-a-blazin' they tend to shut down the discussion and turn everyone off, and I don't really see how that is supposed to resolve the issue. In fact, I get the distinct feeling that amongst these types of people, there is no issue to resolve, and it's time to proclaim a done deal instead of reasoned discussion. And I think you are spot on that most of the time OCs are banned is because of breaking forum rules.

It would be better for everyone if they could imagine that they were discussing these types of issues as a family get together, or a pub, or a picnic--the people they are talking to are people they know, who they will have to see again tomorrow or next week. Others who know both parties are there.  If people could place themselves in that mindset, they could perhaps the avoid the temptations we have seen online. If only...

Anastasios
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« Reply #543 on: December 08, 2007, 12:21:54 PM »

God bless !

No it's not. That is meaningless. Many of the posters here are against traditional orthodoxy ! Not only against oc- for example - I am not an old calendarian.

And look how many "traditional" are warned,moderated quickly....and how people get upset when traditional orthodox posting their opinion.

In CHRIST

I have no problem with OC's being traditional. In fact I envy them for it. The problem I have is that most of them are trying to take over the whole church and put them selves in a position of power. Trying to over throw the EP with there so calls traditionalism. This is clearly a power play. Why hide behind traditionalism.
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« Reply #544 on: December 08, 2007, 12:25:46 PM »

I have no problem with OC's being traditional. In fact I envy them for it. The problem I have is that most of them are trying to take over the whole church and put them selves in a position of power. Trying to over throw the EP with there so calls traditionalism. This is clearly a power play. Why hide behind traditionalism.

I don't know anyone in my Church that honestly thinks we're going to end up taking over the Patriarchate. Our hope is that the patriarch will return to the Old Calendar and renounce ecumenism. If that happens, we will request communion with him again--not demand our own candidate take over.

If we were just about power, I think we chose the wrong way to get it!  Cool

Anastasios
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« Reply #545 on: December 08, 2007, 12:32:32 PM »

I am going to quote for you something I said to other members of the moderation team, which some have agreed with:


God bless !

I said many not all - some here are nice and fair. I also received some PM's were people said they like to see some traditional stuff here. So here are of course some traditional - I do not deny it.

But the "main stream" is not very traditional or happy to see traditional here, I would even say some hate them. It is funny that traditional are accuse of lacking charity when they are full of hatred to them.

But my "Method" of presenting traditional things is often not the best - I know.

IN CHRIST
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 12:34:52 PM by Christodoulos » Logged
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« Reply #546 on: December 08, 2007, 01:10:40 PM »

I said many not all - some here are nice and fair. I also received some PM's were people said they like to see some traditional stuff here. So here are of course some traditional - I do not deny it.

But the "main stream" is not very traditional or happy to see traditional here, I would even say some hate them. It is funny that traditional are accuse of lacking charity when they are full of hatred to them.

But my "Method" of presenting traditional things is often not the best - I know.

IN CHRIST 

I wish everyone could be fair and balanced, just as you say.  I think some folks are wrongly afraid of what Traditionalists stand for.  But many here are equally fair to all.

I'd like to see more Traditionalist-type users on the site, as I think they bring balance to some of our other off-the-edge users.  What is of the utmost importance, however, is clear communication - it's all we have here in lieu of facial expressions, body language, vocal tone, and other non-verbal cues that face-to-face conversation can provide.  If we communicate clearly, and fairly (as Anastasios pointed out - imagining that those we are dialoguing with on the site are sitting next to us, and will be there again tomorrow), then the site will remain a safe place for Traditionalists and Modernists, OC and NC, etc. to converse with one another, and pray for one another.

It is funny that traditional are accuse of lacking charity when they are full of hatred to them. 

It is sad when this happens, to one group or the other.  I hope you don't think hatred is coming from me (as I can only account for myself).

May you have a blessed Fast, and a joyous feast of the Nativity of the Lord!
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« Reply #547 on: December 08, 2007, 01:19:26 PM »

I wish everyone could be fair and balanced, just as you say.  I think some folks are wrongly afraid of what Traditionalists stand for.  But many here are equally fair to all.

I'd like to see more Traditionalist-type users on the site, as I think they bring balance to some of our other off-the-edge users.  What is of the utmost importance, however, is clear communication - it's all we have here in lieu of facial expressions, body language, vocal tone, and other non-verbal cues that face-to-face conversation can provide.  If we communicate clearly, and fairly (as Anastasios pointed out - imagining that those we are dialoguing with on the site are sitting next to us, and will be there again tomorrow), then the site will remain a safe place for Traditionalists and Modernists, OC and NC, etc. to converse with one another, and pray for one another.

It is sad when this happens, to one group or the other.  I hope you don't think hatred is coming from me (as I can only account for myself).

May you have a blessed Fast, and a joyous feast of the Nativity of the Lord!

God bless !

No, of course not, I think you are one of the fairest here!

May you have a blessed fast too and a joyous Nativity Feast!+++

"Glory to God in the Highest and on earth peace,good will toward men"

In CHRIST

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« Reply #548 on: December 08, 2007, 01:32:15 PM »

No, of course not, I think you are one of the fairest here!

This reminds me of the story of Snow White - "Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest one of all?"
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« Reply #549 on: December 08, 2007, 01:38:02 PM »

This reminds me of the story of Snow White - "Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest one of all?"

God bless !

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Did I make a mistake? What is the superlative of fair - most fair or fairest ( in english fair means also pretty )

In CHRIST
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« Reply #550 on: December 08, 2007, 01:51:10 PM »

God bless !

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Did I make a mistake? What is the superlative of fair - most fair or fairest ( in english fair means also pretty )

In CHRIST 

I don't think you made a mistake in language, as most people do not use "fair" to mean "pretty" anymore.
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« Reply #551 on: December 10, 2007, 09:48:01 PM »



If we were just about power, I think we chose the wrong way to get it!  Cool

Anastasios
It would seem that way now. The break in Communion was never just a calender issue.
Why didn't ROCOR bring your church into communion with the EP. I don't understand why they broke communion with you guys to joint us. Do you know anything about this? I would be interested to hear the details.
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« Reply #552 on: January 20, 2008, 11:34:08 PM »

Response to Reply #100- I never saw anything about how (of if) the ROCOR and the Old Calendar Resisters separated.  I did see a report that showed ROCOR hierarchs meeting w/Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili, while the dialogue with the Moscow was in progress.  I would suspect that the Greek Old Calendar resisters would have been the jurisdiction which would have separated from the ROCOR, because they would have not wanted to join with Moscow, precisely because of the reasons that they "walled" themselves off in the first place.
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« Reply #553 on: January 21, 2008, 12:32:44 AM »

I would suspect that the Greek Old Calendar resisters would have been the jurisdiction which would have separated from the ROCOR, because they would have not wanted to join with Moscow, precisely because of the reasons that they "walled" themselves off in the first place.

This is true, Met. Cyprian's Synod did rule to break communion with ROCOR as soon as they joined the MP, at the same time, as I understand it, the MP also required that ROCOR break communion with Met. Cyprian as a condition for unification with the MP. 
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« Reply #554 on: January 25, 2009, 11:14:35 PM »

This long-dormant thread revived to accommodate the latest discussion of this topic, started here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18657.0.html  -PtA


Yes, they do but it isn't. The only one effect of changing the calendar which might be connected to theology are little problems with Typikon. Typikon (one of liturgical books, which contains order of services for every day in a year and some other things) was written in early middle-ages and it's not used to revised-Julian calendar. But the problems aren't difficult to overcome.

Calendar issues weren't disputed on any of Ecumenical Councils so they are allowed to be changed.

[i]Moderators, this should probably be broken off into another thread as we are now talking about a specific issue, not necessarily related to what the OP wanted to discuss.[/i]

Mike,

You are wrong.  The calendar issue IS a theological issue.  At its heart, is our obedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit through whom the Church lives and breathes.  And you are quite wrong that none of the ecumenical councils addressed calendar issues.  They did at the first setting the criteria for the observance of Pascha which means it was expected, nay required, that all churches maintain the universal standard which the Holy Fathers agreed to.  And Holy Tradition includes the canons of the Ecumenical Councils and those are not to be tossed aside because "the rest of the world" is doing something else. though you are right that the typicon can be accommodated with the new Calendar, does not mean that the praxis should be encouraged.

Though I am a member of a new calendar jurisdiction, most Orthodox in the world are, in fact Old Calendar and I sympathize with them. 
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« Reply #555 on: January 26, 2009, 07:13:42 AM »

The only one thing of fixing the date of Pascha which is connected to calendar is that the Pascha must take place after vernal equinox. As long as all Churches: New Calendarists and Old Calendarists use the Julian date of this event (apart from Finland of course) it doesn't interfere with Ist Ecumenical Council.

Personally I follow the Julian Calendar because my parish uses it. IMHO the choice of Calendar should be made on parish level not by the primates of the Church.
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« Reply #556 on: January 26, 2009, 08:35:17 AM »

Hi all!
I'm of the opinion that the changes introduced in the new calendar are irrelevant from a theological point of view. I mean that the core of liturgy is preserved, and the greatest problem is in truth the disappearance of the Fast of the Apostles when Julian Calendar Pascha is too late in the year. This is no theological problem since many feasts and the typikon, as already said in the previous posts, can be easily accomodated. Still I prefer the Old Calendar, and not for reasons of "conservativism" but because of the perfect order the Julian Calendar is endowed with.
Maybe one day will find a way to correct both Calendars, or to accomodate the date of Pascha (Of course, we would need an Ecumenical Council for that) to the Gregorian Calendar. Who knows? Only God does. Let's pray that we might stay united in faith more then in liturgy!

In Christ,   Alex

PS: Dear mike, I guess the choice should still be given to the bishops and synods. Preserving liturgical unity at least in the same diocese stregthens the union with your bishop who, as st Ignatius of Antioch underlines, is the highest authority in a church. It is wonderful how you can rejoice knowing that, while you are celebrating Christmas in your parish, all of your brethren in the diocese are doing the same in communion with your bishop!
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« Reply #557 on: January 26, 2009, 08:50:21 AM »

The calendar issue IS a theological issue.  At its heart, is our obedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit through whom the Church lives and breathes.  And you are quite wrong that none of the ecumenical councils addressed calendar issues.  They did at the first setting the criteria for the observance of Pascha which means it was expected, nay required, that all churches maintain the universal standard which the Holy Fathers agreed to.

Somewhere ages ago, we actually looked at what Nicaea said. And what it said was extremely minimal--certainly nothing so hard-line as to canonize the Julian calendar. As far as I can tell, all the semi-Gregorian Orthodox churches are perfectly in line, since they do observe Easter with the rest.

As far as I can tell, the biggest problem with the Gregorian calendar is Gregory. I see nothing that says that the church cannot correct its calendar calculations so as to use the real vernal equinox. It has been proposed to do so, and abandon both mechanical calendars. I do not see this correction as reflecting upon the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #558 on: January 26, 2009, 09:39:53 AM »

PS: Dear mike, I guess the choice should still be given to the bishops and synods. Preserving liturgical unity at least in the same diocese strengthens the union with your bishop who, as st Ignatius of Antioch underlines, is the highest authority in a church. It is wonderful how you can rejoice knowing that, while you are celebrating Christmas in your parish, all of your brethren in the diocese are doing the same in communion with your bishop!

In my Church (Church of Poland) parishes choose the calendar they want to follow. Every diocese is divided for old and new calendarists parishes so that no one is harmed.

It has also some negative aspects: for example bishop serves Nativity Liturgy in cathedral in December (because cathedral follows the revised-Julian) and he serves another Nativity service in parish somewhere else in January (because parish priest very gently asked him to do that). I know it's strange and propably uncanonical but it prevented our Church from schisms you've had in Greece or Bulgaria.
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« Reply #559 on: January 26, 2009, 10:01:27 AM »

Well, I don't think it's uncanonical. The bishop used ekonomia to prevent divisions, since both calendars are in use among the Orthodox and in substance are both "Orthodox". On the contrary, I think your bishop behaved in the wisest way... even if it leads to a strange situation which - under ordinary circumstances - could seem to be incorrect.
Maybe your divisions are due to the specific position of Polland: half "Eastern" (because of Slavic language and influence) and half "Western" (because of other cultural reasons)?

In Christ,  Alex
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« Reply #560 on: January 26, 2009, 10:16:03 AM »

No, just the economic reasons. Employees are kinder for those who don't ask for more free days (even though Polish law enables JC followers to don't work at their Holidays).
 
There isn't a Western Orthodox tradition which had used Georgian Calendar and there aren't many converts to Orthodox from RC or other Churches. The revised-Julian is used mostly in bigger cities in central part of the country where there are groups of Orthodox who moved there. In areas which have been traditionally Orthodox and there are more of them (eastern Poland) Julian is still being used.
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« Reply #561 on: January 26, 2009, 01:27:59 PM »

I see nothing that says that the church cannot correct its calendar calculations...
This has always been my view, as well.  Ultimately, none of what we call calendars came from God; they are human inventions.  Certainly, God didn't provide us with the Julian calander.  Julius Caesar did.  And while Caesar may have pre-dated Christianity, there's no convincing evidence (to me) that he would have been a friend of the church.  So an insistence on the Julian calendar as if it was some kind of divine revelation has always seemed logically inconsistent to me.

The calendar God gave us is the universe itself.  Since God's calendar is the astronomical bodies which are "for signs and seasons, and for days and years (Gen 1:14)", it seems quite Orthodox to ask which human calendar most closely approximates His.  Despite a fairly common practice (on this board) of using quotation marks when stating that the Gregorian calendar "fixed" the Julian, this innovation did, in fact, make our artificial calendar more accurately approximate the heavens.
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« Reply #562 on: January 26, 2009, 02:20:45 PM »

.

Personally I follow the Julian Calendar because my parish uses it. IMHO the choice of Calendar should be made on parish level not by the primates of the Church.

You should have taken the "H" out of IMHO.  There is  nothing of humility in your statement.  The good order of the church is in question and you think that order should be determined by individual parishes?  Where is the order there?  This isn't a democratic election!  We are to be humble towards our hierarchs and follow where they lead (provided it is not to heresy).
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« Reply #563 on: January 26, 2009, 02:44:51 PM »

Dear Scamandrus, you wrote:
Quote
We are to be humble towards our hierarchs and follow where they lead (provided it is not to heresy).
Well, as it seems, the parishes of the Polish Church are following EXACTLY the dispositions of the hierarchs, as the Metropolitan and his fellow bishops agreed in giving such a freedom to the parishes on the base of their own authority.
Still, I remain of the idea that the Ecclesiastical Julian Calendar is "better" (nothing contrary to the Revised Julian Calendar). Of course, when it comes to the Church of Finland which changed the date of Pascha, that's indeed a decision on the borderline of non-canonicity...

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #564 on: January 26, 2009, 02:55:53 PM »

This long-dormant thread revived to accommodate the latest discussion of this topic, started here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18657.0.html  -PtA


Yes, they do but it isn't. The only one effect of changing the calendar which might be connected to theology are little problems with Typikon. Typikon (one of liturgical books, which contains order of services for every day in a year and some other things) was written in early middle-ages and it's not used to revised-Julian calendar. But the problems aren't difficult to overcome.

Calendar issues weren't disputed on any of Ecumenical Councils so they are allowed to be changed.

[i]Moderators, this should probably be broken off into another thread as we are now talking about a specific issue, not necessarily related to what the OP wanted to discuss.[/i]

Mike,

You are wrong.  The calendar issue IS a theological issue.  At its heart, is our obedience to the guidance of the Holy Spirit through whom the Church lives and breathes.  And you are quite wrong that none of the ecumenical councils addressed calendar issues.  They did at the first setting the criteria for the observance of Pascha which means it was expected, nay required, that all churches maintain the universal standard which the Holy Fathers agreed to.  And Holy Tradition includes the canons of the Ecumenical Councils and those are not to be tossed aside because "the rest of the world" is doing something else. though you are right that the typicon can be accommodated with the new Calendar, does not mean that the praxis should be encouraged.

Though I am a member of a new calendar jurisdiction, most Orthodox in the world are, in fact Old Calendar and I sympathize with them. 

The problem is that the Paschal controversy in the 2nd century ended in a situation similar to today on the calendar.  In fact, the whole Church rebuked Pope Victor for trying to enforce conformity a la EP Meletios.  Of course, the question is the difference between the 2nd and 4th century on this issue.
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« Reply #565 on: January 26, 2009, 03:02:27 PM »

PS: Dear mike, I guess the choice should still be given to the bishops and synods. Preserving liturgical unity at least in the same diocese strengthens the union with your bishop who, as st Ignatius of Antioch underlines, is the highest authority in a church. It is wonderful how you can rejoice knowing that, while you are celebrating Christmas in your parish, all of your brethren in the diocese are doing the same in communion with your bishop!

In my Church (Church of Poland) parishes choose the calendar they want to follow. Every diocese is divided for old and new calendarists parishes so that no one is harmed.

It has also some negative aspects: for example bishop serves Nativity Liturgy in cathedral in December (because cathedral follows the revised-Julian) and he serves another Nativity service in parish somewhere else in January (because parish priest very gently asked him to do that). I know it's strange and propably uncanonical but it prevented our Church from schisms you've had in Greece or Bulgaria.

that was the approach that the OCA took, and most went New Calendar, without a schism (Alaska mostly remains Old Calendar I believe).

Btw, Nicea says the Pope of Alexandria is to calculate the date, because of the accuracy of its astronomers, not the sanctity of her bishops (which was great).  IOW, the real equinox is the one to follow, not a "canonized" one.
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« Reply #566 on: January 26, 2009, 03:02:58 PM »

.

Personally I follow the Julian Calendar because my parish uses it. IMHO the choice of Calendar should be made on parish level not by the primates of the Church.

You should have taken the "H" out of IMHO.  There is  nothing of humility in your statement.  The good order of the church is in question and you think that order should be determined by individual parishes?  Where is the order there?  This isn't a democratic election!  We are to be humble towards our hierarchs and follow where they lead (provided it is not to heresy).
Whoa!  Step back from your computer, close your eyes, and take a few deep breaths there, bud. Smiley  There's no need to publicly question one's humility (a judgment of one's character that technically qualifies as an ad hominem) because of a post on an internet discussion board.

Otherwise, you make a very good point about the need of a parish to submit to the authority of their bishop and of the bishop's responsibility to not abdicate his authority on such important matters as the liturgical calendar.  I just don't want your point to get lost in an emotional reaction to your emotional reply.
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« Reply #567 on: January 26, 2009, 03:32:15 PM »

Given the Sigillion of 1583, I would say it's not up to a parish or a hierarch; this is something that should be put forth to an ecumenical council.  We have all these hymns on feasts that say "Today x happened." So in parish X it is today, and in parish Y it is in 13 days.  This is a disgrace and should be corrected. One universal calendar.
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« Reply #568 on: January 26, 2009, 03:42:56 PM »

Given the Sigillion of 1583, I would say it's not up to a parish or a hierarch; this is something that should be put forth to an ecumenical council.  We have all these hymns on feasts that say "Today x happened." So in parish X it is today, and in parish Y it is in 13 days.  This is a disgrace and should be corrected. One universal calendar.

based on the calculations of Alexandria, as the Fathers decreed.

How does the sigillion of 1583 trump the council of 1923?
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« Reply #569 on: January 26, 2009, 03:53:05 PM »

What would You do if You had a choice: letting the calendar issues go as they do now or installing one universal Orthodox calendar what would lead to schism bigger than that after Chalcedon (Russians, Serbs and Jerusalem on the one side and Greeks, Arabs, Bulgarians, Romanians and all Westerners on another)?
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« Reply #570 on: January 26, 2009, 06:21:33 PM »

Whoa!  Step back from your computer, close your eyes, and take a few deep breaths there, bud. Smiley  There's no need to publicly question one's humility (a judgment of one's character that technically qualifies as an ad hominem) because of a post on an internet discussion board.

Yeah, you're right, PtA.  My apologies to you and to you as well Mike.  This is one of those issues which cannot just be "agree to disagree thing" and even though I belong to a new calendar jurisdiction, I sympathize with the existence of the old because it does nothing except for "ecumenists" to try and promote a false unity.  I'm sick of Protestants and RCs insisting we do it their way with the calendar because if we observe all feasts (like Pascha and Nativity) at the time it gives a unified witness to the world, when in fact it does nothing.  All image, not a hint of substance.

It remains that the calendar question is a theological concern and the mainteance of a unified calendar does promote good order within the Holy Orthodox Church which is the purview of the bishops to whom we are obedient and humble towards.  We should celebrate our feasts with our brethren not with those who are separated from the Truth and have little to no desire to hear it.  Fr. Schemann talks about how it is the duty of the Christian to celebrate and Bishop BASIL of DOWAMA frequently exhorts his flock that the Christian life is one of joy, always.  How much better if those joys and celebrations were done at the same time.  Who cares what the Protestants and Catholics demand?  They're the ones who deviated!

at the same time, let me reply to ialmisry.  The date of the equinox is not set up for "astronomical accuracy."  It is set up for good order in the church.  Otherwise, more hierarchs would jump right on the Aleppo statement.
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« Reply #571 on: January 26, 2009, 06:37:19 PM »

Before we continue to go at each other's throats over this issue, let me ask two questions:

Is this critical to our salvation?

On the day of judgment, do you really think Christ is going to be concerned whether we celebrated the Feast of His Nativity on Dec 25th verse Jan 7th?

The answer, of course is "no."

So rather than get heated over it, let the Bishops decide what is best, and let us love one another as Christ loves us.
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« Reply #572 on: January 26, 2009, 06:49:17 PM »


On the day of judgment, do you really think Christ is going to be concerned whether we celebrated the Feast of His Nativity on Dec 25th verse Jan 7th?
Well, technically, ALL Orthodox Christians celebrate Christ's Nativity on December 25. Wink  In the end, though, obedience to Tradition to the best of one's understanding is important, as it is obedience to the Church Christ established for our salvation.  I wouldn't presume that He won't take into account such obedience or disobedience.
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« Reply #573 on: January 26, 2009, 07:07:13 PM »

Quote
We have all these hymns on feasts that say "Today x happened." So in parish X it is today, and in parish Y it is in 13 days.  This is a disgrace and should be corrected. One universal calendar.

Tripe. What of the hymnody of moveable feasts, including the Holy Week services, which constantly evoke the timeless "Today"? The liturgical simeron/dnyes' is not a literal, earthly today. There goes your argument, Fr Anastasios.
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« Reply #574 on: January 26, 2009, 07:26:28 PM »

Quote
We have all these hymns on feasts that say "Today x happened." So in parish X it is today, and in parish Y it is in 13 days.  This is a disgrace and should be corrected. One universal calendar.

Tripe. What of the hymnody of moveable feasts, including the Holy Week services, which constantly evoke the timeless "Today"? The liturgical simeron/dnyes' is not a literal, earthly today. There goes your argument, Fr Anastasios.
Not so fast, buddy.  The liturgical simeron/dnyes' may not be a literal, earthly today, but we certainly experience it over a series of earthly todays--we cannot help but do so.  This is why we have a calendar, and this is why, even though Fr. Anastasios and I don't agree on a lot of the issues that come up in the standard OC vs. NC debate (or I would have joined an Old Calendarist church long ago), he and I at least agree that this is a very important issue that needs to be addressed in a council of ecumenical authority.  Likewise, we also agree that the way the New Calendar was introduced to the Orthodox Church was poorly conceived and very divisive.
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« Reply #575 on: January 26, 2009, 07:49:08 PM »

It remains that the calendar question is a theological concern

Your position is at odds with St. Athanasius' account of Nicea (the only Ecumenical Council to make any statement about anything calendar-related). In his 'De Synodis' he writes:

"Without pre-fixing Consulate, month, and day, they [the Fathers of the 1st Ecumenical Council] wrote concerning Easter, ‘It seemed good as follows,’ for it did then seem good that there should be a general compliance; but about the faith they wrote not, ‘It seemed good,’ but, ‘Thus believes the Catholic Church;’"

In other words he carefully distinguishes between Nicea's decision about 'the faith' (i.e., Christ's divinity), and the decision about Pascha which was not 'about the faith' but merely a matter of good order.


A few other notes since there is a lot misinformation about what Nicea actually said about Pascha:
1) Nicea did not assert the Julian Calendar. In fact, Nicea did not mention any calendar or date. Nicea mentioned exactly 2 things - the vernal equinox (an astronomical event) and 'the Jewish passover' (which is based on a lunar calendar and will therefore always move around in relation to solar calendars like the Julian and Gregorian).
2) Nicea did not establish a specific Paschalion - it established certain standards with regards to the vernal equinox and the Jewish Passover that any Paschalion needs to follow, but Rome, for example, used 3 different 'Nicean' Paschalions between Nicea (315 AD) and 525AD when they finally settled on using the same one as Alexandria was using. The "Paschal controversy" you can find in any account of the history of Christianity in Britain arose because the Celtic Church was using one of Rome's old Paschalion's which did not always coincide with the one Rome was using by the 7th and 8th centuries--but both the Celtic and Roman/Alexandrian Paschalion's met the criteria of Nicea.
3) In the Paschal calculations produced by the Church in the centuries immediately following Nicea, the official Julian calendar date for the vernal equinox (March 25th) was not used. Instead, they use March 21st which was the date the actual astronomical event was occuring on at that point (since the Julian calendar was already off solar reality by 4 days at the time).
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« Reply #576 on: January 26, 2009, 09:14:48 PM »

Grin  ..... the Gregorian Calendar and the "Revised Julian" are absolutely, totally identical right now and will remain so for the next 800 years.  Not a skerrick of a difference.

What amazes me in debates is that, intelligent, mature people can make claims which are patently false.
If there is "no skerrick of difference" between the Revised Julian and Gregorian Calendars, then why do they follow different Paschalions? If every moveable feast is different on the Revised Julian and Gregorian Calendar, how can anyone claim that they are "identical"?
Claims such as this add about as much credibility to objections to the Revised Julian Calendar as a used car salesman has when trying to convince us that a Toyota is a Ferrari.
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« Reply #577 on: January 26, 2009, 10:06:16 PM »

Quote
We have all these hymns on feasts that say "Today x happened." So in parish X it is today, and in parish Y it is in 13 days.  This is a disgrace and should be corrected. One universal calendar.

Tripe. What of the hymnody of moveable feasts, including the Holy Week services, which constantly evoke the timeless "Today"? The liturgical simeron/dnyes' is not a literal, earthly today. There goes your argument, Fr Anastasios.
Not so fast, buddy.  The liturgical simeron/dnyes' may not be a literal, earthly today, but we certainly experience it over a series of earthly todays--we cannot help but do so.  This is why we have a calendar, and this is why, even though Fr. Anastasios and I don't agree on a lot of the issues that come up in the standard OC vs. NC debate (or I would have joined an Old Calendarist church long ago), he and I at least agree that this is a very important issue that needs to be addressed in a council of ecumenical authority.  Likewise, we also agree that the way the New Calendar was introduced to the Orthodox Church was poorly conceived and very divisive.

Yes, very poorly planned and executed.  Besides the high handedness of 1923,  I'm only familiar with the OCA's change, which went reletively seamlessly.  I'm not familiar with the change in Antioch in 1941, and how that was executed.
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« Reply #578 on: January 26, 2009, 10:26:17 PM »

Quote
We have all these hymns on feasts that say "Today x happened." So in parish X it is today, and in parish Y it is in 13 days.  This is a disgrace and should be corrected. One universal calendar.

Tripe. What of the hymnody of moveable feasts, including the Holy Week services, which constantly evoke the timeless "Today"? The liturgical simeron/dnyes' is not a literal, earthly today. There goes your argument, Fr Anastasios.

I've never understood the fascination some have with making reference to the division between the stomachs of a ruminant in their comments, although I do enjoy the taste of the soup made from tripe I must admit...

You basically totally missed my point, which is that we should be doing things in harmony, and when we do them 13 days apart from our bretheren in the faith, it is a disgrace. I am not so stupid as to think that these texts are date-literal.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #579 on: January 26, 2009, 10:53:08 PM »

Grin  ..... the Gregorian Calendar and the "Revised Julian" are absolutely, totally identical right now and will remain so for the next 800 years.  Not a skerrick of a difference.

What amazes me in debates is that, intelligent, mature people can make claims which are patently false.
If there is "no skerrick of difference" between the Revised Julian and Gregorian Calendars, then why do they follow different Paschalions?

I am moderately intelligent and certainly mature so please... no ad hominems needed. Smiley

I cannot do the study for you but you really ought to know that when it comes to the matter of the Paschalion and all the moveable Feasts which depend on it, the Revised Julian people revert to using the Julian Calendar.   Their calculation of Pascha is based on the Julian Calendar.  That is why their Paschalion differs from the Gregorian Paschalion and it also differs from what would be the Revised Julian Paschalion (which nobody in fact uses.)  Why "intelligent mature people" have adopted such a mickey mouse system which has to operate on two Calendars, one for the Paschalion and one for the Cycle of Saints and Fixed Feasts,  is a mystery!
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« Reply #580 on: January 26, 2009, 11:31:33 PM »

Quote
although I do enjoy the taste of the soup made from tripe I must admit...

If you're Greek, that figures.  laugh laugh

Quote
Their calculation of Pascha is based on the Julian Calendar.  That is why their Paschalion differs from the Gregorian Paschalion

C'mon, already! The western calculation for Pascha does not take into account the date of the Jewish Passover, which is a lunar feast. Nothing to to with a fixed calendar, Gregorian or otherwise.
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« Reply #581 on: January 26, 2009, 11:36:18 PM »

at the same time, let me reply to ialmisry.  The date of the equinox is not set up for "astronomical accuracy."  It is set up for good order in the church.  Otherwise, more hierarchs would jump right on the Aleppo statement.

The Pentateuch lays down that the Pascha falls in the month of Abib, translated "new grain" in the LXX: it means that and spring.  In other words, the instructions mark it as a spring feast: from the time of Moses till the time of Christ, if the barley had not ripened by the coming of the new moon of Abib (or Nisan, the post exile name), "leap month" of Adar II was stuck in to ensure it.  It's part of the reason why Pascha sometimes comes in May, to ensure that only one Pascha/Passover was celebrated within one (solar) year (if it had anything to do with calculation or canonical time, than the mere fact that 12 months had passed would do).

I don't have the originals handy, but I assume they use Ισημερία for Equinox, i.e. equal day and night.  That term is based on observation of those signs and seasons that God put in Genesis 1.   All references I see with Alexandria's role mention the accuracy of their obervatories.

The Fathers could very easy set a date.  They didn't.  They based the rules on observations that the Hebrew Church had followed before.

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« Reply #582 on: January 27, 2009, 12:05:57 AM »

IIRC, the Fathers of the Nicene Council (325) insisted that Christians must not celebrate Pascha with the Jews, probably to ensure that we took no consideration of the Jews in setting up our own Paschalion.  Since then, most of the Church developed the generally accepted interpretation of this mandate to state that we must celebrate Pascha only after the Jews.  Of course, this was before the shift in the Jewish lunar calendar in relation to the astronomical spring equinox made it possible for the Jews to celebrate their Pascha with the second full moon of spring.  Consequently, our continued insistence that the Christian Pascha MUST follow after the Jewish celebration now has us potentially violating another tenet of the Nicene Paschal mandate: that we must celebrate Pascha on the Sunday immediately following the first full moon of spring.  Don't you see the manifest irony in this: that our insistence that the Christian Pascha follow AFTER the Jewish Pascha now has us tying our Paschalion closely to theirs once again?  I thought we weren't supposed to give a moment's care to when the Jews celebrate their feasts.
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« Reply #583 on: January 27, 2009, 12:28:43 AM »

Whoa!  Step back from your computer, close your eyes, and take a few deep breaths there, bud. Smiley  There's no need to publicly question one's humility (a judgment of one's character that technically qualifies as an ad hominem) because of a post on an internet discussion board.

Yeah, you're right, PtA.  My apologies to you and to you as well Mike.
I forgive you, and may God forgive us all. Smiley

This is one of those issues which cannot just be "agree to disagree thing" and even though I belong to a new calendar jurisdiction, I sympathize with the existence of the old because it does nothing except for "ecumenists" to try and promote a false unity.  I'm sick of Protestants and RCs insisting we do it their way with the calendar because if we observe all feasts (like Pascha and Nativity) at the time it gives a unified witness to the world, when in fact it does nothing.  All image, not a hint of substance.

It remains that the calendar question is a theological concern and the mainteance of a unified calendar does promote good order within the Holy Orthodox Church which is the purview of the bishops to whom we are obedient and humble towards.  We should celebrate our feasts with our brethren not with those who are separated from the Truth and have little to no desire to hear it.  Fr. Schemann talks about how it is the duty of the Christian to celebrate and Bishop BASIL of DOWAMA frequently exhorts his flock that the Christian life is one of joy, always.  How much better if those joys and celebrations were done at the same time.  Who cares what the Protestants and Catholics demand?  They're the ones who deviated!

at the same time, let me reply to ialmisry.  The date of the equinox is not set up for "astronomical accuracy."  It is set up for good order in the church.  Otherwise, more hierarchs would jump right on the Aleppo statement.
Just curious...  You bring up the Aleppo Statement.  Could you tell us how this applies to the topic of discussion?  Not doubting the relevance of your citation; I just think a brief explanation might be helpful in fostering discussion on this thread. Wink
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« Reply #584 on: January 27, 2009, 01:03:24 AM »

So do you all think that an 8th Ecumenical Council dealing with the calendar will ever be convened?  I don't think so, because as I understand it a council that is truly Ecumenical could not be held until full communion was restored with the "Catholic" Church.  Is this wrong?  Could a pan-Orthodox council be called that would require the submission of all Orthodox churches to the results if it was not an Ecumenical council?

Also, many have said that all that is necessary for the Orthodox faith has been settled and that no more Ecumenical councils are needed.  I suppose then under that reasoning there really is no way to handle this issue.  I just have a feeling that at some point the Eastern Orthodox communion might be split between the Greeks and the Russians over this issue.  Even though my opinion on the issue doesn't matter too much as this point since I am not a full member of the Church (we're only engaged!), my vote would go to all of the churches returning to the Julian Calendar as it has always been done in the Orthodox Church.
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