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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 202810 times) Average Rating: 0
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GiC
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« Reply #495 on: December 05, 2007, 02:25:26 AM »

This is merely more claims. It does not constitute evidence.
Please provide the evidence for your claims as has been requested of you.

Not only that, making the jump from His All-Holiness having Anglican friends and being close to the Anglicans (he did study in England, after all, it makes sense that he would have good Anglican friends), to his being an Anglican priest would take some serious evidence; like an ordination date and location with witnesses and documentation.

It just doesn't fit into His All-Holiness' personality; His All-Holiness always wanted to be first in his endeavours. Considering this, why would he, a Patriarch of the Church, bring himself down to the level of a priest amongst the Anglicans? Just doesn't fit.
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« Reply #496 on: December 05, 2007, 02:32:37 AM »

Am i allowed to post outside links on this forum?
If they are relevant to this discussion, yes.
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« Reply #497 on: December 05, 2007, 02:43:14 AM »

Whether as a priest or bishop, i do not know, but praying the anglican liturgy together with other anglican clergy at their church, could only assume Metaxakis was one with them and the anglican clergy thought likewise.
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« Reply #498 on: December 05, 2007, 02:48:20 AM »

Whether as a priest or bishop, i do not know, but praying the anglican liturgy together with other anglican clergy at their church, could only assume Metaxakis was one with them and the anglican clergy thought likewise.
More of the same personal observations.  Please give us the information we requested to substantiate your wild claims.
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« Reply #499 on: December 05, 2007, 02:52:29 AM »

If they are relevant to this discussion, yes.

Thank-you

This link is an article written by Fr. Srboliub Miletech of the Serbian Orthodox Church who undertook an investigation of this patriarch, The article concerns itself mostly with jurisdictionalism in Orthodoxy which he blames this patriarch as being the root of it:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/meletios.htm

This link is the encyclical which recognized Anglican Orders issued by this patriarch, and that these orders have been legit since Matthew Parker:


http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgbmxd/patriarc.htm
  
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« Reply #500 on: December 05, 2007, 03:46:39 AM »

Thank-you

This link is an article written by Fr. Srboliub Miletech of the Serbian Orthodox Church who undertook an investigation of this patriarch, The article concerns itself mostly with jurisdictionalism in Orthodoxy which he blames this patriarch as being the root of it:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/meletios.htm

This link is the encyclical which recognized Anglican Orders issued by this patriarch, and that these orders have been legit since Matthew Parker:


http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgbmxd/patriarc.htm
  

I still haven't seen a shred of evidence that would even suggest that His All-Holiness, of Blessed Memory, was an Anglican Priest.
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« Reply #501 on: December 05, 2007, 05:00:24 AM »

This link is the encyclical which recognized Anglican Orders issued by this patriarch, and that these orders have been legit since Matthew Parker:


http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgbmxd/patriarc.htm
  
This is interesting that the Orthodox Patriarch recognises the validity of the Anglican orders. Also, he uses the word validity which I had understood from reading some Orthodox posters, the terms valid or invalid were supposed to be foreign to Orthodox thought. But in spite of what posters here say, we see it here, in this Orthodox encyclical.  And it is a pretty serious point, because the RC Church says that the Anglican orders are not valid.
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« Reply #502 on: December 05, 2007, 05:59:03 AM »

I still haven't seen a shred of evidence that would even suggest that His All-Holiness, of Blessed Memory, was an Anglican Priest.
Who needs facts when you have hysteria?


Also, he uses the word validity
Assuming that the original was written in English.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 06:23:10 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #503 on: December 05, 2007, 07:42:47 AM »

Whether as a priest or bishop, i do not know, but praying the anglican liturgy together with other anglican clergy at their church, could only assume Metaxakis was one with them and the anglican clergy thought likewise.

God bless !

I only can warn you- they will not accept "facts", they will put your words upside down- it does not matter what you post. They only will accuse and blame you- and than, they will say you have no charity - the great christian virture but they have.

For some people it is allowed ( a sign of charity ) to blaspehme the Holy Spirit and call miracles of our Panhagia myths, call Her "Superhuman", call others Hysteric, dramatic, call monkes-who died of hunger and persecution- criminals, who should be locked up, they will call you pharisee, proud, monkeydox, netodox, self-righteous, they will say you make dogmas, are preaching and teaching, they will say you have a "messias complex", they will say you present forgery and only post quotes according to your opinion, provoking, that you are combative, vehement ( of course they aren't - NO), they will get angry or very angry, they will tell you to go away.... and this is called asking for evidence when you will try to answer, they will say you are bombarding them with quotes.... and please take care, make NO MISTAKE- they will jump on them - it will be your condemnation...

Do you see how much charity they have ?

And this they call "objective".......and christian charity - what hypocrisy !

In CHRIST
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 10:16:38 AM by Christodoulos » Logged
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« Reply #504 on: December 05, 2007, 08:00:21 AM »

I only can warn you- they will not accept "facts", they will put your words upside down- it does not matter what you post. The only will accuse and blame you- and than, they will say you have no charity - the great christian virtue but they have.

What is being twisted is the meaning of the Anglican prelates' actions. As we do not make the Catholic claim-- that is, we do not claim to be the entire church-- recognition of Greek church legitimacy, even to the point of allowing their patriarch to participate in our services, does not imply that said Greek is Anglican. I have found no evidence that Meletios was ever considered an Anglican by anyone whose authority to do so matters. What we have here is pure spin, a twisted reading of events. That is all.
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« Reply #505 on: December 05, 2007, 12:05:23 PM »

God bless !

I only can warn you- they will not accept "facts", they will put your words upside down- it does not matter what you post. They only will accuse and blame you- and than, they will say you have no charity - the great christian virture but they have.

For some people it is allowed ( a sign of charity ) to blaspehme the Holy Spirit and call miracles of our Panhagia myths, call Her "Superhuman", call others Hysteric, dramatic, call monkes-who died of hunger and persecution- criminals, who should be locked up, they will call you pharisee, proud, monkeydox, netodox, self-righteous, they will say you make dogmas, are preaching and teaching, they will say you have a "messias complex", they will say you present forgery and only post quotes according to your opinion, provoking, that you are combative, vehement ( of course they aren't - NO), they will get angry or very angry, they will tell you to go away.... and this is called asking for evidence when you will try to answer, they will say you are bombarding them with quotes.... and please take care, make NO MISTAKE- they will jump on them - it will be your condemnation...

Do you see how much charity they have ?

And this they call "objective".......and christian charity - what hypocrisy !

In CHRIST 

Where does this venom come from?

Look, we have a few basic rules here on OC.net -

1. we allow people to express their views openly, even if we think they're wrong.
2. we DO NOT allow people to make personal attacks
3. we only allow debate on ideas and concepts

So, "in charity" as you snidely point out, we do allow people to question tradition and elders.  It doesn't mean they're right (in fact, usually they're wrong, depending on the argument), but this is a place for free speech.  The same "in charity" spirit makes us allow others to question the New Calendar and Hierarchs of the church.  It doesn't mean they're right, but this is a place for free speech.

Now, the reason why people have asked buzuxi for evidence of his accusation against Patriarch Meletios is because his statement is a personal attack - one must have evidence for a personal attack.  If buzuxi accused you of being a freemason, we'd ask him for proof, otherwise he'd be warned for attacking your person.  If you accused me of being a purple-headed clown, you'd be asked for proof, otherwise you'd be warned for attacking a person.

If buzuxi is correct about his accusation that Patriarch Meletios was a recognized Anglican minister, then fine, he should provide evidence to the rest of us to believe him.  Otherwise, he should be careful - making false accusations against anyone can lead to one's own condemnation at the dread Judgment Seat of Christ... And that's why it is always better to be charitable than condemnatory.  Especially with someone who is already long dead.
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« Reply #506 on: December 05, 2007, 12:47:07 PM »

Where does this venom come from?

Look, we have a few basic rules here on OC.net -

1. we allow people to express their views openly, even if we think they're wrong.
2. we DO NOT allow people to make personal attacks
3. we only allow debate on ideas and concepts

So, "in charity" as you snidely point out, we do allow people to question tradition and elders.  It doesn't mean they're right (in fact, usually they're wrong, depending on the argument), but this is a place for free speech.  The same "in charity" spirit makes us allow others to question the New Calendar and Hierarchs of the church.  It doesn't mean they're right, but this is a place for free speech.

Now, the reason why people have asked buzuxi for evidence of his accusation against Patriarch Meletios is because his statement is a personal attack - one must have evidence for a personal attack.  If buzuxi accused you of being a freemason, we'd ask him for proof, otherwise he'd be warned for attacking your person.  If you accused me of being a purple-headed clown, you'd be asked for proof, otherwise you'd be warned for attacking a person.

If buzuxi is correct about his accusation that Patriarch Meletios was a recognized Anglican minister, then fine, he should provide evidence to the rest of us to believe him.  Otherwise, he should be careful - making false accusations against anyone can lead to one's own condemnation at the dread Judgment Seat of Christ... And that's why it is always better to be charitable than condemnatory.  Especially with someone who is already long dead.

God bless !

Really where does this VENOM come from ?

Did you read my post ? Why you allow personal attacks ? You are contradicting yourself ...What I mentioned was done with my posts or do you want to lie ?

I was attacked unceasingly and it was allowed ....hmmmmm, stop with your excuses...fact is fact !

In CHRIST

What Hypocricy !!!

« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 12:48:41 PM by Christodoulos » Logged
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« Reply #507 on: December 05, 2007, 01:30:13 PM »

This is interesting that the Orthodox Patriarch recognises the validity of the Anglican orders. Also, he uses the word validity which I had understood from reading some Orthodox posters, the terms valid or invalid were supposed to be foreign to Orthodox thought. But in spite of what posters here say, we see it here, in this Orthodox encyclical.  And it is a pretty serious point, because the RC Church says that the Anglican orders are not valid.

In my view, terms like "valid" and "invalid" are indeed foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology.  Their use by certain Orthodox clerics is often, IMHO, a result of Orthodox theology being held "captive" by western thought.  The Greek Church was in the firm grasp of this "captivity" until the late 1950's, when it slowly and painfully began to emerge from the shadow of western scholasticism.

The Russian Bishop Hilarion contends that the main bulk of the Russian Church is still in the grip of such a theological captivity.  (See the link to his article on the "liberalism in Orthodoxy" thread.) 

Why has Orthodox theology not been true to itself for so long, and is only now expressing itself again?  The Greek Church was subjected to a policy of slow strangulation from the 15th to the 19th or 20th centuries by their Turkish masters.  There was no creative theological expression possible during this period: a great theological and intellectual tradition came to a screaching halt with the conquest of Constantinople in 1453.   The only thing new available came from the West.  Greek Orthodox encyclicals of the time often used western language and concepts to describe the faith.  The Turkish system of government made the Church a secular ruler under Turkish domination, and this system encouraged corruption and degeneracy to increase, and laws made Orthodox religious education extremely difficult.  Those Orthodox who wanted to study theology would go the West and learn all about the Protestant or Roman Catholic worldviews. 

The Russian Church never really had the same intellectual tradition of the Greeks, but this slowly began to change in the 19th century.  This nascent movement was snuffed out by the revolution.  Since then, most Russian Orthodox theologians that have continued this revival have done so outside of Russia.

The Russian Church was, however, very Orthodox in her beliefs and practices until, slowly, she became more and more subject, through a series of historical tragedies and mistakes, to the Russian state.  This state became more and more "western" from the 17th century onwards.  In this way, the Russian Church entered her own period of "western captivity."  Of course, there is always the question of lex orandi, lex credendi, and in this sense, the Russians, Greeks et al remained Orthodox in many ways.   There was also the occasional great saint who witnessed to the Patristic tradition.

In the early 20th century, a few Orthodox leaders were "hoodwinked" into believing that the Anglican Church was very close to the Orthodox.  This seems to have come about through a combination of naivete on the part of the Orthodox and a less than full revelation concerning Anglican beliefs on the part of the Anglicans having contact with the Orthodox.  St. Raphael, one such Orthodox leader (a bishop) is another, if memory serves, who actually went so far to instruct his priests to give Holy communion to Anglicans and to concelebrate(?)with them.  This stopped as soon as he recognised his mistake.  Nowadays, few if any Orthodox leaders advocate recognition of Anglican sacraments. 
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« Reply #508 on: December 05, 2007, 01:32:09 PM »

Did you read my post ? Why you allow personal attacks ? You are contradicting yourself ...What I mentioned was done with my posts or do you want to lie ?

I was attacked unceasingly and it was allowed ....hmmmmm, stop with your excuses...fact is fact ! 

In all honesty: if there is a post in which there is a personal attack, then click the "report to moderator" link in the lower right-hand corner of the post, and I'll address it.  If you don't report it, then it may be missed.

Your accusing me of lying is not grounded in fact,
but I apologize if I've allowed others to personally attack you.  This is inexcusable and should happen to no member, whether I agree with their positions or not.

Please identify the personal attacks, and the moderators will address them immediately.
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« Reply #509 on: December 05, 2007, 07:33:13 PM »

If you would please point out any posts in which I made a "personal attack" on you, Christodoulos, I will apologize.

But not agreeing with a person, or asking for sources or offering countering information is not the same thing as "personal attacks".  There is no requirement for others to agree with us

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« Reply #510 on: December 05, 2007, 08:08:42 PM »


But not agreeing with a person, or asking for sources or offering countering information is not the same thing as "personal attacks".  There is no requirement for others to agree with us

Ebor

God bless !

That's true and there is no problem with different opinions or when someone does not agree !

But some people were/are not objective or fair and did/are attack/ing- that's the point and this is true.

In CHRIST
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« Reply #511 on: December 05, 2007, 09:20:32 PM »

God bless !

That's true and there is no problem with different opinions or when someone does not agree !

But some people were/are not objective or fair and did/are attack/ing- that's the point and this is true.

In CHRIST

Can you point to some example posts to show what you think are attacks or not being objective?  Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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« Reply #512 on: December 05, 2007, 09:55:11 PM »


Now, the reason why people have asked buzuxi for evidence of his accusation against Patriarch Meletios is because his statement is a personal attack - one must have evidence for a personal attack.  If buzuxi accused you of being a freemason, we'd ask him for proof, otherwise he'd be warned for attacking your person. 

If buzuxi is correct about his accusation that Patriarch Meletios was a recognized Anglican minister, then fine, he should provide evidence to the rest of us to believe him.  Otherwise, he should be careful - making false accusations against anyone can lead to one's own condemnation at the dread Judgment Seat of Christ... And that's why it is always better to be charitable than condemnatory.  Especially with someone who is already long dead.

God bless !

Perhaps Buzuxi was speaking about:

Who was this Metaxakis ?

Bishop Photios of Triaditsa:

Meletios Metaxakis- name in the world was Emmanuel. He was borne on September 21,1870 in the Village of Parsas on the island of Crete. He entered the Seminary of the Holy Cross in Jerusalem in 1889. He was tonsured with the name Meletios and ordained a Hierodeaco in 1892. He completed the theological courses at Holy Cross and was assigned as sectretary to the Holy Synod in Jerusalem by Patriarch Damianos in 1900. Meletios was evicted from the Holy Land by Patriarch Damianos, along with the then administrator Chrysostom later Archbishop of Athens, in 1908 for "activity against the Holy Sepulchre".

In "Famous Freemasons" Alexander Zervoudakis writes that, during a visit to Cypres in 1909, Metaxakis and two other clergymen ( one of whom was Metropolit Basil of Anchialos, an official representative of the EP) were initiated into the Masonic Lodge.

In 1910 Metaxakis became Metropolitan of Kition in Cyprus. Driven by a "violent, impetuos, and caviling spirit," as Zervoudakis-his admirer-records, Metaxakis sought to become EP in 1912. Failing in this, he returned his attention again to Cyprus. Failing there also, he abondoned his flock and went to Greece where, with the Support of Venizelos, he became Archbishop of Athens in 1918. But when Venizelos lost the next election, Metaxakis likewise was ousted from his see.

....In February 1921 Meletios visited the US. On Dec. 17, 1921, the greek Ambassador in Washington D.C. sent a Message to the prefect at Thessalonica stating that Meletios "vested, took part in an Anglican Service, knelt in prayer with Anglicans, venerated their Holy Table, gave a Sermon, and later blessed those present."

This came to the attention of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece, wich formed a commision to investigate Metaxakis in November of 1921. But, as Bishop of Triaditsa notes:

While the investigation was proceeding against Metaxakis, he was unexpectedly elected Patriarch of Constantinopel. Nonetheless, the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece deposed Meletios Metaxakis on December 29, 1921 for a series of infractions against Canon Law and for causing Schism.
........

Political circles around Venizelos and the Anglican Church had been involved in Meletio's election as Patriarch.

...Under pressure from Meletios, the Patriarchate of Constantinopel accepted the validity of Anglican orders in 1923....

1923 on the pretext of illness and the need for medical treatment, Meletios left Constantinopel. On September 20, 1923, under pressure from the Greek government and through the intervention of Archbishop Chrysostom of Athen, Meletios resigned as Patriarch.

In Alexandria, with the support of Anglican clergymen, and under pressure from the British government (this was still the time fo the British mandate in Egypt), the Egyptian government confirmed Metaxakis as Patriarch in May of 1926.

He also tried to become Patriarch in Jerusalem but no election took place.
He died on July 28, 1935 and was buried in Cairo.

According to Archbishop Athenagoras of Thyateira and Great Britain, who was present then as an Archdeacon and eye-witness, Metaxakis was given full Masonic funeral.

As EP Metaxakis presided over the ten sessions of the "Pan-Orthodox" Congress of 1923.
During the course of this Congress, a prelate of the Anglican Church, Charles Gore, the Bishop of Oxford, was present at the invitation of Metaxakis. He was asked to sit at the Ecumenical Patriarchs right side, and to particiipate in the sessions. Among the proposals adopted by this Congress were a change in the Paschalion and in the festal calendar to coinncide with t hat used in the West, a reduction of fasts and church Services, the abolition of the proscription against the marriage of the clergy after ordination and the abolition of special clerical dress.

From the book; The struggle agaist ecumenism, by the Holy Transfiguration Monastery,

In CHRIST
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« Reply #513 on: December 05, 2007, 10:56:19 PM »

Thank-you Christodoulos. I didnt want to post things from old calendarist sources sine they would be viewed with suspicion, so i posted the link to an article written by a Serbian Orthodox priest which pretty much says the same thing but moreso emphasizes MM role in creating jurisdictionalism.
My comment that he was an anglican minister while 'simultaneously' being an Orthodox bishop is based on the circumstantial evidence. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck in must be a duck. MM formed the GOARCH, later came to America and was caught concelebrating with the Anglicans. Meanwhile anglican influence "crept" into the greek church; the use of musical organs and kneeling during the epiclesis in the GOA all dates back to this time (food for thought).
Everyone can make up their own mind about what took place during those years under his leadership. But its an undeniable fact that the three biggest problems facing our Church today was sown my Meletios Metaxakis: differing Calendars, Ecumenism, jurisdictionalism.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 10:58:22 PM by buzuxi » Logged
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« Reply #514 on: December 05, 2007, 11:30:02 PM »

May God Give that archbishop/patriarch what he truly deserves ...I guess the ecumenicl patriarch now is following in his footsteps... it a good thing we don't have to follow him......stashko  <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZS%2526i%253D8%252F8%255F2%255F85v%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">SmileyCentral.com" border="0<img border="0" src="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fimgfarm%252Ecom%252Fimages%252Fnocache%252Ftr%252Ffw%252Fsmiley%252Fsocial%252Egif%253Fi%253D8%252F8_2_85v/image.gif">[/url]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 11:39:44 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #515 on: December 05, 2007, 11:33:11 PM »

A self published polemic that was written to justify a group's ecclesiology is not a valid source.  Can you provide a peer reviewed academic publication or even a non-academic publication from a respected publisher that uses proper historical methodology?
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« Reply #516 on: December 06, 2007, 12:58:28 AM »

Thank-you Christodoulos. I didnt want to post things from old calendarist sources sine they would be viewed with suspicion, so i posted the link to an article written by a Serbian Orthodox priest which pretty much says the same thing but moreso emphasizes MM role in creating jurisdictionalism.
My comment that he was an anglican minister while 'simultaneously' being an Orthodox bishop is based on the circumstantial evidence. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck in must be a duck. MM formed the GOARCH, later came to America and was caught concelebrating with the Anglicans. Meanwhile anglican influence "crept" into the greek church; the use of musical organs and kneeling during the epiclesis in the GOA all dates back to this time (food for thought).
Everyone can make up their own mind about what took place during those years under his leadership. But its an undeniable fact that the three biggest problems facing our Church today was sown my Meletios Metaxakis: differing Calendars, Ecumenism, jurisdictionalism.

I agree with almost everything His All-Holiness, of Blessed Memory, did; and were I in his position it's likely that I would have done the same, perhaps I would have pushed for even more progress and advancement. But I am most certainly not an Anglican minister and I wouldn't even consider accepting a simultaneous ordination in two Churches, pick one or the other (I don't really care which) and go with it. I really don't see how even the circumstantial evidence points towards your conclusion; 'circumstantial evidence' and 'wild speculation' are not one and the same.
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« Reply #517 on: December 06, 2007, 03:33:13 AM »

I agree with almost everything His All-Holiness, of Blessed Memory, did; and were I in his position it's likely that I would have done the same, perhaps I would have pushed for even more progress and advancement.
The question of masonry has come up on this thread. I don't understand it completely, but I notice that this question on freemasonry or masonry keeps on coming up. Not just in questions concerning correct teaching in Orthodoxy, but also in Catholicism. Generally the argument goes something like this: this clergyman pushed liberal and non-traditional ideas, but that is part and parcel of the masonic agenda and the clergyman (it could be a Catholic bishop or cardinal for example) was a member of a masonic lodge, but the membership was held in secret. Further, it is sometimes said that Vatican II was a council which was engineered and led by secret freemasons who were plotting for the destruction of Catholicism.  And supposedly, when Pope Paul VI met the Patriarch Athenagoras, pictures show that they exchanged the secret Masonic handshake. ?
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« Reply #518 on: December 06, 2007, 03:45:55 AM »

The question of masonry has come up on this thread. I don't understand it completely, but I notice that this question on freemasonry or masonry keeps on coming up. Not just in questions concerning correct teaching in Orthodoxy, but also in Catholicism. Generally the argument goes something like this: this clergyman pushed liberal and non-traditional ideas, but that is part and parcel of the masonic agenda and the clergyman (it could be a Catholic bishop or cardinal for example) was a member of a masonic lodge, but the membership was held in secret. Further, it is sometimes said that Vatican II was a council which was engineered and led by secret freemasons who were plotting for the destruction of Catholicism.  And supposedly, when Pope Paul VI met the Patriarch Athenagoras, pictures show that they exchanged the secret Masonic handshake. ?

Personally, I think there is some truth behind our "fear" of the Masons, but I also think they're very handy scapegoats in a lot of our conspiracy theories, of which there are a few even among the Orthodox.
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« Reply #519 on: December 06, 2007, 05:33:57 AM »

May God Give that archbishop/patriarch what he truly deserves ...
May these words not return to haunt you on your deathbed. May God not give you or anyone what they truly deserve.

By what yardstick you measure, you shall be measured.

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« Reply #520 on: December 06, 2007, 05:51:14 AM »

May these words not return to haunt you on your deathbed. May God not give you or anyone what they truly deserve.

By what yardstick you measure, you shall be measured.



Im not acually judging him ,,,But i agree if God was to give us what we truly deserve we would be in deep deep trouble....i pray for him though, that God may show him great mercy also he was a spiritual leader,i would asume when much is given much more is expected ,,especially from our shepherds...stashko ... <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZS%2526i%253D11%252F11%255F1%255F211%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">SmileyCentral.com" border="0<img border="0" src="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fimgfarm%252Ecom%252Fimages%252Fnocache%252Ftr%252Ffw%252Fsmiley%252Fsocial%252Egif%253Fi%253D11%252F11_1_211/image.gif">[/url]
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« Reply #521 on: December 06, 2007, 10:37:51 AM »

Thank-you Christodoulos. I didnt want to post things from old calendarist sources sine they would be viewed with suspicion, so i posted the link to an article written by a Serbian Orthodox priest which pretty much says the same thing but moreso emphasizes MM role in creating jurisdictionalism.
My comment that he was an anglican minister while 'simultaneously' being an Orthodox bishop is based on the circumstantial evidence. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck in must be a duck. MM formed the GOARCH, later came to America and was caught concelebrating with the Anglicans. Meanwhile anglican influence "crept" into the greek church; the use of musical organs and kneeling during the epiclesis in the GOA all dates back to this time (food for thought).
Everyone can make up their own mind about what took place during those years under his leadership. But its an undeniable fact that the three biggest problems facing our Church today was sown my Meletios Metaxakis: differing Calendars, Ecumenism, jurisdictionalism.



God bless you !

Oh, it doesn't matter where the information is coming from- they never accept anything-you know, they call it "objective" ........ ?

In this book are many quotes from Greek, Russian and English sources.......when someone thinks it is not trustworthy, he should read the book and follow this sources and search for himself, beside this "old calendarian" sources, there are many others, for example from the New Calendar Church, or from Mount Athos !

There is also a good article: church and masonia ( orthodox typos) were you will find some other "orthodox theologians" who were masons !

In CHRIST

I think you are right- some of the "Pastor Bob, from the neighborhood" looking orthodox priests and all the other innovations.

By their works - you will know them- so look at HIS WORKS and you will know him. His deeds and works are evidence enough.

BTW I have to be careful - I was warned !
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« Reply #522 on: December 06, 2007, 11:02:40 AM »

BTW I have to be careful - they want to make me quiet - I was warned !

No, we want you to post in a manner that is respectful of others, which you are either incapable of doing or are actively refusing to do.  Everyone's contributions are welcome, so long as they're respectful of other posters.
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« Reply #523 on: December 06, 2007, 11:14:39 AM »

No, we want you to post in a manner that is respectful of others, which you are either incapable of doing or are actively refusing to do.  Everyone's contributions are welcome, so long as they're respectful of other posters.

God bless !

Then you should also post in a manner that is respectful of others !

Judge all with the same meassure.

In CHRIST
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« Reply #524 on: December 06, 2007, 11:20:36 AM »

Then you should also post in manner that is respectful of others !

Cleveland has already asked you to report specific posts that you feel are inappropriate rather than making vague accusations.
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« Reply #525 on: December 06, 2007, 02:57:12 PM »

In my view, terms like "valid" and "invalid" are indeed foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology.

This notion seems to arise from time to time, and I have to say that it seems to me to be a quibble over terms. The corresponding determination seems to be made and applied rigorously, so I don't see how the terms are inaccurate even if they aren't exactly the terms that one might choose.
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« Reply #526 on: December 06, 2007, 06:36:50 PM »

I agree with almost everything His All-Holiness, of Blessed Memory, did; and were I in his position it's likely that I would have done the same, perhaps I would have pushed for even more progress and advancement. But I am most certainly not an Anglican minister and I wouldn't even consider accepting a simultaneous ordination in two Churches, pick one or the other (I don't really care which) and go with it. I really don't see how even the circumstantial evidence points towards your conclusion; 'circumstantial evidence' and 'wild speculation' are not one and the same.

There would of never of been an actual oridnation into anglicanism, they already recognized each others orders, the fact remains he concelebrated with them and was the first to introduce and encourage Orthodox to commune in anlican churches for emergency, he never said to do the same with the RC. The circumstantial evidence is he liturgized using the anglican liturgy using the book of common ptayer, instead of his own church while in America.
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« Reply #527 on: December 06, 2007, 07:44:18 PM »

There would of never of been an actual oridnation into anglicanism, they already recognized each others orders, the fact remains he concelebrated with them and was the first to introduce and encourage Orthodox to commune in anlican churches for emergency, he never said to do the same with the RC. The circumstantial evidence is he liturgized using the anglican liturgy using the book of common ptayer, instead of his own church while in America.

Well, that doesn't mean he was an Anglican Priest, it means he was an Orthodox Bishop who concelebrated with the Anglicans.
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« Reply #528 on: December 07, 2007, 01:11:39 AM »

This notion seems to arise from time to time, and I have to say that it seems to me to be a quibble over terms. The corresponding determination seems to be made and applied rigorously, so I don't see how the terms are inaccurate even if they aren't exactly the terms that one might choose.

It's not a quibble over terms.  Orthodox ecclesiology is different from Western ecclesiology.  Recently Ozgeorge and I have both posted on different threads and in slightly different ways why it is not appropriate for the Orthodox to use not so much these terms, but rather these concepts.
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« Reply #529 on: December 07, 2007, 04:52:32 AM »

Among the reasons (in fact, the main reasons) why I will not consider joining an Old Calendarist "walled off" Church is the triumphalism, rudeness, self-righteousness, judgementalism, and downright hatred of so many "Old Calendarists".  In fact, the only decent Old Calendarists I know are Robert and Anastasios, and I have never met them in person.
It's difficult to convince me that something is "the truth" when I find next to no followers of it to be charitable, forgiving, forbearing. The question I have to ask is: "what is the point of a "truth" which has no power to make anyone a better follower of the Gospel commandments of Christ?"
I say this, not to disparage "walled off" Old Calendarist Churches, but rather, to suggest that the members of them need to reflect a bit about their praxis on discussion forums. If indeed you have "the truth", then you need to think about how you are presenting it to others if you indeed believe that this will save them.
If you believe you have a truth to share, then speak it in the way the Apostle told us to: "speak the truth in love", and remember that the same Apostle also said:
" Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."
So there is no excuse for rudeness, schadenfreude, self aggrandizement, passing judgement....The Apostle clearly says that these things are not love.
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« Reply #530 on: December 07, 2007, 02:13:48 PM »

Among the reasons (in fact, the main reasons) why I will not consider joining an Old Calendarist "walled off" Church is the triumphalism, rudeness, self-righteousness, judgementalism, and downright hatred of so many "Old Calendarists". 

This has largely been my experience too, but....

Quote
In fact, the only decent Old Calendarists I know are Robert and Anastasios....

....surely they must have friends?

Quote
" Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."

Thanks for reminding us of this.  I know that I need reminding about this, sinner that I am.

Quote
So there is no excuse for..... schadenfreude....

Refresh my failing memory.   Tongue  Does this mean thinking about your own gain?
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« Reply #531 on: December 07, 2007, 02:16:54 PM »

May God not give you or anyone what they truly deserve.

Amen!
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« Reply #532 on: December 07, 2007, 02:28:15 PM »

schadenfreude - finding pleasure in someone else's misfortune
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« Reply #533 on: December 07, 2007, 02:48:23 PM »

Among the reasons (in fact, the main reasons) why I will not consider joining an Old Calendarist "walled off" Church is the triumphalism, rudeness, self-righteousness, judgementalism, and downright hatred of so many "Old Calendarists".  In fact, the only decent Old Calendarists I know are Robert and Anastasios, and I have never met them in person.
It's difficult to convince me that something is "the truth" when I find next to no followers of it to be charitable, forgiving, forbearing. The question I have to ask is: "what is the point of a "truth" which has no power to make anyone a better follower of the Gospel commandments of Christ?"
I say this, not to disparage "walled off" Old Calendarist Churches, but rather, to suggest that the members of them need to reflect a bit about their praxis on discussion forums. If indeed you have "the truth", then you need to think about how you are presenting it to others if you indeed believe that this will save them.
If you believe you have a truth to share, then speak it in the way the Apostle told us to: "speak the truth in love", and remember that the same Apostle also said:
" Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."
So there is no excuse for rudeness, schadenfreude, self aggrandizement, passing judgement....The Apostle clearly says that these things are not love.

God bless !

You wrote:

By what yardstick you measure, you shall be measured.

You should not build your faith on the deeds of others, such people are everywhere, also in the New Calendarian Church- please remember how they have persecuted the old calendarians ( and still do ) - with beating, accusing, even killing.......so would you say this is better ? Isn't this also hatred ?

So, we see that also members of your Church have hatred and self- righteousness and " Schadenfreude" so will you now seperate from it ?

In CHRIST
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« Reply #534 on: December 07, 2007, 03:15:34 PM »

When you state old calendarians. Please make it clear witch old calendarians you are referring to. We are also in communion with old calendarians. These are the pit falls that one must know of before entering into communion with a church. This is to prevent such people like our friend Sako and others who think they are entering into communion with us and then find themselves outside. So, it's best to refer to your actual church instead of saying old calendarians.
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« Reply #535 on: December 07, 2007, 07:56:03 PM »

You should not build your faith on the deeds of others, such people are everywhere, also in the New Calendarian Church-
True, but as I said, in my experience, they are the majority in the "walled off" Churches.

please remember how they have persecuted the old calendarians
Islam is persecuted in the West, Falun Gong is persecuted in China, Hinduism is persecuted in Indonesia, Jehovah's Witnesses are persecuted in Russia....being persecuted is no guarentee that you have the truth.

So, we see that also members of your Church have hatred and self- righteousness and " Schadenfreude"
You may see this, but I don't. There is not one Orthodox Internet Forum where "walled off" Old Calendarists are not welcome. If they are banned, it is because they have broken forum rules, not because they are Old Calendarists. But I do know an Orthodox Forum where New Calendarists are certainly not made to feel welcome from the outset......
People avoid "Walled off" Old Calendarists because they are not very nice people to hang around, yet I notice they have no problem coming here.
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« Reply #536 on: December 07, 2007, 08:01:26 PM »

True, but as I said, in my experience, they are the majority in the "walled off" Churches.
Islam is persecuted in the West, Falun Gong is persecuted in China, Hinduism is persecuted in Indonesia, Jehovah's Witnesses are persecuted in Russia....being persecuted is no guarentee that you have the truth.
 You may see this, but I don't. There is not one Orthodox Internet Forum where "walled off" Old Calendarists are not welcome. If they are banned, it is because they have broken forum rules, not because they are Old Calendarists. But I do know an Orthodox Forum where New Calendarists are certainly not made to feel welcome from the outset......
People avoid "Walled off" Old Calendarists because they are not very nice people to hang around, yet I notice they have no problem coming here.

God bless !

You must have meet many old calendarians ? I can not agree - most of them I know are really nice and good people and of course true orthodox Christians.

I didn't say that persecution is a guarantee for truth - I want to say that bad people with hatred you will find everywhere- sad but true - if they are old or new calendarian..

I know OC's who were persecuted by NC's but not even one NC who was persecuted by OC ??

And if people avoid them or not - it doesn't matter - Truth is Truth.

Perhaps they have no problem to come here but they are not really welcome !

In CHRIST
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« Reply #537 on: December 07, 2007, 10:12:20 PM »

Perhaps they have no problem to come here but they are not really welcome !

This is most baffling as two of the three administrators of this forum are Old Calenarists
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« Reply #538 on: December 08, 2007, 02:36:37 AM »

And if people avoid them or not - it doesn't matter - Truth is Truth.

You still don't get it.
Everyone claims to have "the Truth"- the Catholics, the Evangelicals, the Moslems, the Hare Krishnas.....
So, it does make a difference how you try and sell your version of "the Truth".
One of the reasons Buddhism is so popular in the West is because Buddhists are seen as peaceful people who don't seek to "evangelize", but rather, actively live out their beliefs in Compassion and Love. People see the genuininess of Buddhists, and conclude that Buddhism is genuine.
Similarly, if Old Calendarists believe that they have a monopoly on "the Truth", then don't they have a duty to present their case in a way which will make them be seen as genuine followers of Christ, and not as people who simply use the Bible and the Rudder to bash people over the head with and condemn them to hell? If indeed they have "the Truth", then won't they be held accountable for not making it as palatable as Buddhists make Buddhism?
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« Reply #539 on: December 08, 2007, 11:20:14 AM »

You still don't get it.
Everyone claims to have "the Truth"- the Catholics, the Evangelicals, the Moslems, the Hare Krishnas.....
So, it does make a difference how you try and sell your version of "the Truth".
One of the reasons Buddhism is so popular in the West is because Buddhists are seen as peaceful people who don't seek to "evangelize", but rather, actively live out their beliefs in Compassion and Love. People see the genuininess of Buddhists, and conclude that Buddhism is genuine.
Similarly, if Old Calendarists believe that they have a monopoly on "the Truth", then don't they have a duty to present their case in a way which will make them be seen as genuine followers of Christ, and not as people who simply use the Bible and the Rudder to bash people over the head with and condemn them to hell? If indeed they have "the Truth", then won't they be held accountable for not making it as palatable as Buddhists make Buddhism?

God bless !

Truth is Truth ! I think Truth should not be "selled " - Truth is a Person - Jesus Christ the God Man.

And I think everyone can find Truth- there are proofs for Truth - so I think it can be examined if they have Truth or not.

But I can not understand that you always speak about sins and mistakes of some OC's the same mistakes and sins etc you will find also in your church ! So why does your Church not " sell " it better, why people have been persecuted.......

I have seen people accusing OC's without reason, full of hatred .......I think perhaps these people know that OC's are right but don't accept it and so get angry.

It is funny because I am not an OC  ! Isn't it ?

In CHRIST
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