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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 202884 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #450 on: November 24, 2007, 07:11:12 PM »

God bless !

I do not know Archbishop Peter of New Jersy and his research but there are many excellent books and studies on this Topic - and I think that all agree that the Julian is the correct one.

 Archimandrite Naum, Elder of the St.Trinity-St.Sergius monastery :

The question of Paschalia is both dogmatical and canonical, and when the Orthodox celebrate Easter at the time, which reveals the symbol of the first and the eighth unsetting day, and remember the suffering and death, descent into Hell and the Resurrection, namely: after equinox, after full moon, on the day of Sunday, - then the Lord grants the appearance of the Blessed Fire at the Holy Sepulchre. He who keeps, along with other commandments, the commandment and tradition about Easter, does truly and observe in his life the Divine Truth, the goodness and sanctity of the Lord. He who does not keep the commandment about Paschalia, does not, as we often see, observe either all or some of God's commandments. And let their conscience be their judge.

The Holy Tradition prescribes:

1. That Easter be after vernal equinox; 2. After the following full moon; 3. On the first following Sunday; 4. That this Feast does not coincide with the Jewish Passover, which serves as a time reference, but that it be after the Jewish Passover.

The seven-day week begins with the creation of the world. The first day, being the image of the eternal, merges with Sunday. The Sun circle contains 28 years (7x4) - after 28 years the days of the week are repeated, which is important for the Paschalia. The Moon circle contains a 19-year Metonic cycle, but after every 19 years, the full moon, though occurring on the same day, takes place almost one and a half hours earlier than previously, so that after every 312 years, the full moon takes place one whole day earlier than previously. This shift of full moons was known to the pastors of the Eastern Church.

St. John Chrysostom indicates that "Equinox is the beginning of initial time at creation, when day and night were equal. Full Moon, however, was created after equinox, on the fourth day; on the sixth day God created man. Time of creation is chosen as time of renewal, namely: equinox, full Moon on the 14th day and on the day of the creation of man. At the same time, the Lord suffered, crying: "Father, the hour is come." The seven days of suffering coincided exactly with the first seven days of creation - this is the paramount time. It has been commanded: "This do in remembrance of Me" - to annually observe Easter following equinox, finding the 14th day of the Moon, after it (the day of the Old Testament Passover), and from here we calculate the Friday, the Saturday and the Lord's Day (Christian Easter).
If the 14th day of the Moon should occur before equinox, we leave it out and look for another, which should be after equinox; then the other month is counted. If the 14th day of the Moon meets with the Lord's Day, we take the next Lord's Day, in memory thereof that the 14th day is the day of passions, coinciding with the Friday on Calvary."
The Jewish Passover retains only full moons, while the Christian Easter - also the Resurrection, - wrote and said Pope Victor. In 1582, however, Pope Gregory XIII introduced his own calendar, influenced by the age of the Renaissance. Copernicus was against the reform and the 1583 Council rejected the new calendar.

The Gregorian calendar is historically pernicious and proves to be astronomically unnecessary. From 1900 to 2100 the difference between the two calendars is 13 days. Under the Gregorian calendar, it is difficult to retrieve historic events, astronomic phenomena, it is difficult to alternate lunar and solar equations. One cannot apply the rule concerning celebration of Easter to the Gregorian style. The Orthodox Church cannot accept the Gregorian style. The church celebrates Easter not according to dictates of the Gregorian or Julian calendars, but in accordance with the lunar biblical calendar.

The great indiction, that is the great paschal circle encompassing 532 years, provides for the unity of time in cosmic, historical, liturgical fields as a synthesis of knowledge of calendars; accounts for equinox and full moons, and serves as eternal calendar. The indiction affirms the inviolacy of the week. The Holy Orthodox Church is the sole guardian of the authentic Apostolic tradition.

The Holy Ghost, through the God-inspired Apostles and the Holy fathers, taught the rule of righteousness for all men. Thus, the 7th Apostolic rule reads: "If some person, be he bishop or presbyter, or deacon, should celebrate the feast of Easter before the vernal equinox, together with the Jews let him be cast away from the holy order."

The rule of the Holy Antioch Council stipulates that those daring to violate the decisions of the Holy and Great Council held in Nicaea, "about the feast of the Salvatory Easter, let them be excommunicated and cast away from the Church. If any of the hierarchs of the Church, be it bishop or presbyter, or deacon, dare to corrupt the people and to rebel against the Churches by conducting Easter with the Jews, such persons does the Holy Church condemn to be estranged from the Church, forbid conducting services to him and to those who have come in communion with him."

And Christ the Saviour appeals to every one of us, as He did to Simon John: "Doest thou love Me?" We call: "Our Father" and must remember, that our eternal Fatherland is in Heaven - where the Father is, there the children should be, too. And observance of God's commandments is a manifestation of love - and to those who have faith, the Lord grants the knowledge of the Resurrection. Easter for the Christians is Christ's Resurrection from the dead.
Easter is a feast of spring and reminds us of the seven days of Creation and the seven days of the Saviour's passions. This is the eighth day - as a symbol of the eternal unsetting day - merging with the first day of Creation - it is the Lord's day, it follows Saturday and is called the Week. Following the Week - the Sunday - after the Week - comes Monday, and so continues the week - from the week of Creation. And it was after vernal equinox, full moon and the three-day Resurrection. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."



Interesting that you should post so much about the equinox, even the definition of the Fathers "when day and night were equal." 

On the planet I'm on (which also happens to be the one Our Lord rose on), that happens around March 21, not in April.
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« Reply #451 on: December 02, 2007, 12:19:53 PM »

Grace and Peace!

My local Parish Priest was recently talking to me about the Old Calendar vs. the New Calendar and he made strikingly strong argument which I was moved to agree.

Could someone talk to me about Old Calendar without all the drama found in some of the 'other' topics on this subject?  Embarrassed
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« Reply #452 on: December 02, 2007, 12:36:33 PM »

Dear Ignatius , ill leave my drama in the other thread . Basically there was a very controversial Patriarch named Meletios Metaksakis who uncanonically ascended the throne of Constantinople. Due to the political circumstances of Turkey during that time and Meletios connection with the british government, freemasonry, and close relations to the anglicans, he held a conference which changed the Church calendar. It had nothing to do with the new calendars accuracy. Later other churches followed. Since 3 pan -orthodox councils condemned its use it created schisms.  Basically we should educate ourselves on the real historical surroundings and press for a return to the Julian Calendar. Its also a better liturgical calendar. The revised julian calendar sometimes wipes out the apostles fast and it deprives the faithful from ever being able to celebrate KyrioPascha.   

If one feels a need for astronomical accurace then after a return to the original calendar, Orthodoxy can hold a council and come up with a truly Orthodox calendar which is faithful to Nicea and has liturgical integrity.
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« Reply #453 on: December 02, 2007, 04:20:43 PM »

^ Thank you for your very one-sided propaganda spiel, buzuxi.  I thought you said you were going to leave your drama on the other thread.  It appears not. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #454 on: December 02, 2007, 04:35:10 PM »

ignatius,

I hate to break this to you, but the subject of the New vs. Old Calendars is a controversial subject that cannot help but arouse heated discussion from those unable to divorce their reasoning faculties from their emotions enough to see more than just their side of calendar reform history.  I recognize and value your need to know, and I hope we can offer you the information you seek to understand, but to expect that we will present this material to you with total objectivity and without any of the "drama" may be a bit too much wishful thinking.  We will try to be as objective as we can, but I also ask that you be patient with the many posters on both sides who will preach as "objective facts" such propaganda as you just saw above.

With this in mind, you might want to go ahead and plow through the bucket loads of drama on the other threads to find the diamonds of wisdom buried there.

- Peter
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« Reply #455 on: December 02, 2007, 04:51:41 PM »

Grace and Peace!

My local Parish Priest was recently talking to me about the Old Calendar vs. the New Calendar and he made strikingly strong argument which I was moved to agree.

Could someone talk to me about Old Calendar without all the drama found in some of the 'other' topics on this subject?  Embarrassed

Well, since you are opening this can of worms, maybe it would help if you tell us which worm you're interested in.
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« Reply #456 on: December 02, 2007, 05:06:57 PM »

ignatius,

I hate to break this to you, but the subject of the New vs. Old Calendars is a controversial subject that cannot help but arouse heated discussion from those unable to divorce their reasoning faculties from their emotions enough to see more than just their side of calendar reform history. 


So we should divorce our emotions from the Truth?

God has given us emotions, they may be fallen but than so is our reason.

May God have me HATE the New Calendar and all it means with my emotions unto the ages.

Theophan
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« Reply #457 on: December 02, 2007, 05:14:28 PM »

So we should divorce our emotions from the Truth?

God has given us emotions, they may be fallen but than so is our reason.

May God have me HATE the New Calendar and all it means with my emotions unto the ages.

Theophan
GOOD!  Now, at least for the sake of the OP's questions, can you keep your emotional diatribe to yourself.
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« Reply #458 on: December 02, 2007, 05:18:49 PM »

The Julian (old) Calendar was introduced 46 BC by Julius Caesar.  It was then altered during the reign of Augustus (number of days a month).  In May of 1923 the synod of Constantinople proposed the adoption of a new calendar that would drop 13 days and have a new leap year formula.  So, until 2800, the Revised Julian (New Calendar) will be identical to the Gregorian.  The Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria use the New Calendar.  The Churches of Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia, and Georgia use the Julian or Old Calendar.  Old Calendarists such the Holy Synod in Resistance use the old calendar as well, obviously.  In the Churches of Poland, Albania, Czech Lands and Slovakia and the OCA, the calendar used varies from parish to parish.  The autonomous Finnish and Estonian (EP) Churches use the Gregorian calendar I believe.

The synod also proposed a new Paschalion (means to determine the date of Pascha).  All Churches rejected it, but the Finnish and Estonian (EP) use the Gregorian Paschalion.

I won't go into some of the arguments for and against the new/old calendars, unless that is what you wanted.
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« Reply #459 on: December 02, 2007, 09:04:45 PM »

  So, until 2800, the Revised Julian (New Calendar) will be identical to the Gregorian. 
And then is it true that after 2800, those using the Revised Julian calendar will be off one day from those using the Gregorian calendar? It looks like that would lead to some confusion internationally, unless one side gives in to the other's method of calculation.
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« Reply #460 on: December 02, 2007, 09:09:17 PM »

A pretty good book on the subject, if one wants a through Old Calendarist interpretation of events, is "A Scientific Examination of the Orthodox Church Calendar" which can be purchased from ctosonline.org .  A search on this book on this site will show a thread that dealt with this book where some objections to it were made at one point, for the other point of view (also, there are articles online dealing with the opposing view).

Anastasios
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« Reply #461 on: December 02, 2007, 09:25:02 PM »

And then is it true that after 2800, those using the Revised Julian calendar will be off one day from those using the Gregorian calendar? It looks like that would lead to some confusion internationally, unless one side gives in to the other's method of calculation.

Yup, 2800 is a leap year in the Gregorian calendar, but a common year in the Revised Julian calendar.
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« Reply #462 on: December 02, 2007, 09:28:28 PM »

Yup, 2800 is a leap year in the Gregorian calendar, but a common year in the Revised Julian calendar.
Well, that means that there are 793 years left to discuss and argue about which calendar to use after 2800?
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« Reply #463 on: December 02, 2007, 11:35:15 PM »

Grace and Peace!

My local Parish Priest was recently talking to me about the Old Calendar vs. the New Calendar and he made strikingly strong argument which I was moved to agree.

Could someone talk to me about Old Calendar without all the drama found in some of the 'other' topics on this subject?  Embarrassed

What was Father's points that struck you to agree on?
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« Reply #464 on: December 03, 2007, 01:18:27 AM »

^ Thank you for your very one-sided propaganda spiel, buzuxi.  I thought you said you were going to leave your drama on the other thread.  It appears not. Roll Eyes

Really Peter, i dont know what you find objectionable to my post. The original poster can due his own research, for his own edification to verify what i said, if im lying and manufacturing facts the poster will figure it out. I usually dont post on this forum, but in the forums i do post in, my responses are honest, and they know my credibility.

In the other thread, which i was warned, i actually was arguing against an old calendarist. For your disclosure i attend a GOARCH church that uses the new calendar, but i realize the unusual and sad historical circumstances which initially lead to the calendar change.
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« Reply #465 on: December 03, 2007, 01:51:57 AM »

Really Peter, i dont know what you find objectionable to my post. The original poster can due his own research, for his own edification to verify what i said, if im lying and manufacturing facts the poster will figure it out. I usually dont post on this forum, but in the forums i do post in, my responses are honest, and they know my credibility.

In the other thread, which i was warned, i actually was arguing against an old calendarist. For your disclosure i attend a GOARCH church that uses the new calendar, but i realize the unusual and sad historical circumstances which initially lead to the calendar change.
I like to think that I'm actually quite familiar with both sides of the Calendar Reform debate, and I do have my own opinions.  I recognize the validity of the scientific and other arguments most often advanced in favor of the New (Revised Julian) Calendar, yet I also find quite regrettable many of the means that have been used to enact the adoption of the New Calendar, which opinion it seems we actually share.  (FWIW, I'm a member of a New Calendar parish where I feel very much at home with the calendar, though I do wish sometimes that I actually had an Apostles' Fast.  Maybe that will become moot once the Paschalion is reformed to match the Menologion--read my posts on this matter and you will see why I disagree with the generally accepted interpretation of Nicea that Pascha must be celebrated before the Jews. Wink)

The big problem with your initial reply to the OP is not its mere substance.  You have in your very short time here built quite a reputation for yourself with your acerbic posts, which has made very difficult the task of separating the content of your replies from your personal style enough to judge the content on its own merit.  Whether you like it or not, the "Warned" designator under your name does influence how others read your posts.

As to the imbalance I pointed out, you clearly presented only one side of the debate.  Maybe all the facts you mentioned can be verified, but you presented only those facts that support your opposition to the New Calendar.  To be truly balanced, you need to also cite the perspective of the advocates of Calendar reform.  Even if you personally disagree with the reasoning of your opponents, you need to at least state their position in as objective and respectful a manner as you can.  Otherwise, you present nothing more than your own apologetic for/against the use of the New Calendar, which is specifically what the OP requested we NOT give him, IIRC.
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« Reply #466 on: December 03, 2007, 02:01:28 AM »

though I do wish sometimes that I actually had an Apostles' Fast.

I don't get why people bring this up.  In some Greek monasteries there is the pious custom of fasting from September 1st until the feast of the Holy Cross.  13 extra days... How many days are missed on the Apostles' fast 13...
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« Reply #467 on: December 03, 2007, 02:18:47 AM »

I like to think that I'm actually quite familiar with both sides of the Calendar Reform debate, and I do have my own opinions.  I recognize the validity of the scientific and other arguments most often advanced in favor of the New (Revised Julian) Calendar, yet I also find quite regrettable many of the means that have been used to enact the adoption of the New Calendar, which opinion it seems we actually share.  (FWIW, I'm a member of a New Calendar parish where I feel very much at home with the calendar, though I do wish sometimes that I actually had an Apostles' Fast.  Maybe that will become moot once the Paschalion is reformed to match the Menologion--read my posts on this matter and you will see why I disagree with the generally accepted interpretation of Nicea that Pascha must be celebrated before the Jews. Wink)

The big problem with your initial reply to the OP is not its mere substance.  You have in your very short time here built quite a reputation for yourself with your acerbic posts, which has made very difficult the task of separating the content of your replies from your personal style enough to judge the content on its own merit.  Whether you like it or not, the "Warned" designator under your name does influence how others read your posts.

As to the imbalance I pointed out, you clearly presented only one side of the debate.  Maybe all the facts you mentioned can be verified, but you presented only those facts that support your opposition to the New Calendar.  To be truly balanced, you need to also cite the perspective of the advocates of Calendar reform.  Even if you personally disagree with the reasoning of your opponents, you need to at least state their position in as objective and respectful a manner as you can.  Otherwise, you present nothing more than your own apologetic for/against the use of the New Calendar, which is specifically what the OP requested we NOT give him, IIRC.

Thank-you for your clarifications, very fair.
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« Reply #468 on: December 03, 2007, 02:31:48 AM »

I don't get why people bring this up.  In some Greek monasteries there is the pious custom of fasting from September 1st until the feast of the Holy Cross.  13 extra days... How many days are missed on the Apostles' fast 13...
Because most of us don't live in Greek monasteries... Wink
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« Reply #469 on: December 03, 2007, 02:58:19 AM »

Because most of us don't live in Greek monasteries... Wink

A good point.  So why are all these non-monastics following the fasts anyway?   

What I'm getting out though, is regardless of whether one finds themselves on the new calendar if they have the blessing of their confessor what on earth is stopping them from fasting an extra thirteen days if they feel it is that important?  Also baffling to me is why people make this an issue when so few people can even follow the current fasting to the letter.  Even among monastics it is rare.   
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« Reply #470 on: December 03, 2007, 03:39:00 AM »

A good point.  So why are all these non-monastics following the fasts anyway?   

What I'm getting out though, is regardless of whether one finds themselves on the new calendar if they have the blessing of their confessor what on earth is stopping them from fasting an extra thirteen days if they feel it is that important?  Also baffling to me is why people make this an issue when so few people can even follow the current fasting to the letter.  Even among monastics it is rare.   
Maybe it's a sense of duty to our Tradition.  "It doesn't matter if we can follow the fasts to the letter; we still need the requirements to show us how far we fall short of the Church's high calling."
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« Reply #471 on: December 03, 2007, 04:11:57 AM »

Grace and Peace!

My local Parish Priest was recently talking to me about the Old Calendar vs. the New Calendar and he made strikingly strong argument which I was moved to agree.

Could someone talk to me about Old Calendar without all the drama found in some of the 'other' topics on this subject?  Embarrassed

It's highly unlikely that this will occur, as you have probably seen this issue tends to be rather emotional for those on both sides of the issue. The majority of Constantinople 1923 dealt with this issue, but as they eventually ruled in favour of the new calendar this resource may be regarded as biased towards the new calendar; but it was not entirely biased, there was much theological discussion of the matter as well as dealing with practical concerns. It's perhaps the most unbiased approach you could find. Because of this I would recommend Fr. Patrick Viscuso's A quest for Reform of the Orthodox Church: The 1923 Pan-Orthodox Congress, last I checked it was available on amazon.com; read this in conjunction with the book Anastasios recommend and between the two you may come out with a balanced view.

For your benifit I will quote a statement from His All-Holiness Patriarch Meletios of Constantinople from the first session which presents the issues of the calendar issue, but does not here try to answer them. If you actually read and study His All Holiness, you may actually find that he was not the evil and dreadful man some here would like to present him as.

Quote
We have begun to acquaint ourselves with different viewpoints on the question. All of us remain agreed on the removal of the 13 days difference because this difference scientifically is in error and because harmony should be brought about between the religious life of Christians and their worldly life, so that we celebrate the feast of the Annunciation and the feast of the Transfiguration of the Lord at the same time when we say that today is March 25th or August 6th. However, questions also arise which cannot remain ignored. Namely, is it to our advantage from and Orthodox point of view to say that we accept the Gregorian calendar? What are the Church's primary canonical regulations concerning the systems of measuring time, and is the Church bound by these regulations?

Are the regulations regarding the celebration of Pascha of dogmatic significance, so that another calendar contrary to these things is unacceptable, even if this calendar might be valued by scientists in other respects? Is the aim especially valued that we succeed in obtaining the entire Christian world's common celebration of its two great feasts, the Birth of Christ, which is found at the head of the immovable feasts, and His Resurrection, which is placed at the head of the movable feasts; and is it only to be stressed that we do not accept the Gregorian calendar, since it was proven to have been in error?

Because the reform which we re going to make must not bring scandal to a Christian congregation, we seriously bear in mind that it is not something indifferent how the masses of our Christians will react to a reform that includes the Gregorian system.

If some churches by reason of their particular customs, under which they remain, do not wish to accept the future calendar as correct, would it be necessary then that the majority of the churches accept the reform?

The Church of Jerusalem already by telegraph indicated that an agreement of the Orthodox feastdays with those of the Roman church is judged inadvisable for the Orthodox in regard to the established liturgical order at the Holy Places, which forms part of the order at the Holy Places. Consequently, this would be an impediment to the investigation of a calendar, since in practice the situation would be produced that the Church of Jerusalem's telegram discusses.

Should the Orthodox Church on the whole limit its efforts to only the necessity of abolishing the difference of days, which exist between the two calendars in use, or use the opportunity to take the initiative san pursue the common development of a more perfect calendar in cooperation with the Anglican and Roman churches?

These and such questions are arising at this moment, during which we are discussing the calendar question. It is necessary that we take these matters under consideration and study them. I believe that today we are able to confine ourselves to these points, but tomorrow we are to proceed in the establishment of subcommittees, to which various aspects of the entire question will be referred.

(Ibidem, pg. 14-15)
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« Reply #472 on: December 03, 2007, 04:14:08 AM »

And then is it true that after 2800, those using the Revised Julian calendar will be off one day from those using the Gregorian calendar? It looks like that would lead to some confusion internationally, unless one side gives in to the other's method of calculation.

This time we're correct, the Revised Julian calendar took into account astronomical calculations that were not included in the Gregorian Calendar. As we will be inline with scientifc observations this time, it's up to the Latins to change their calendar.
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« Reply #473 on: December 03, 2007, 09:54:04 AM »

Really Peter, i dont know what you find objectionable to my post. The original poster can due his own research, for his own edification to verify what i said, if im lying and manufacturing facts the poster will figure it out. I usually dont post on this forum, but in the forums i do post in, my responses are honest, and they know my credibility.

In the other thread, which i was warned, i actually was arguing against an old calendarist. For your disclosure i attend a GOARCH church that uses the new calendar, but i realize the unusual and sad historical circumstances which initially lead to the calendar change.

God bless !

It was the same with my posts ! I always should present facts and proofs and evidence, in reality they never read realy the quotes.......

Why did others not present proofs for their "opinion", why others were not warned ?

In CHRIST
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« Reply #474 on: December 03, 2007, 10:04:09 AM »

Okay, here's an odd question.  When adopting the New Calendar, what would have been the problem with transferring the fixed feasts to new dates?  For example, if Christmas was on December 25, but because of the Old Calendar usage, that corresponded to January 7 on the civil calendar, why not adjust the date of Christmas to be January 7 on the New Calendar?  That would seem to preserve the relationship in time between the feasts and fasts, while also putting them on dates that are astronomically accurate.
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« Reply #475 on: December 03, 2007, 11:33:01 AM »

Okay, here's an odd question.  When adopting the New Calendar, what would have been the problem with transferring the fixed feasts to new dates?  For example, if Christmas was on December 25, but because of the Old Calendar usage, that corresponded to January 7 on the civil calendar, why not adjust the date of Christmas to be January 7 on the New Calendar?  That would seem to preserve the relationship in time between the feasts and fasts, while also putting them on dates that are astronomically accurate.

That seems a bit backward.  "Astronomically accurate" would be moving Christmas to Dec 12 on the Old Calendar so it matches up with what is astronomically accurate i.e. the New.  Part of the thrust behind the Revised Julian is that the Old Calendar is no longer astronomically accurate, which is exactly why the Old Calendar "thinks" that Jan 6 is Dec 25 when it is in fact not.  Where does this manifest itself?  The Old Calendar has each equinox incorrect, which is why Pascha does not fall anywhere close to the equinox most of the time.  Theoretically, Pascha should always fall within 28 days of the Equinox (the point at which day and night are of equal length, which is around Mar 21 New / Mar 8 Old), but instead it does routinely fall in the 29-40 day range after the equinox.
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« Reply #476 on: December 03, 2007, 12:00:48 PM »

God bless !

It was the same with my posts ! I always should present facts and proofs and evidence, in reality they never read realy the quotes.......

Why did others not present proofs for their "opinion", why others were not warned ?

In CHRIST

You will note that the OP requested an objective analysis of the situation, independent of personal opinion and emotions. Some have very strong opinions against the revised calendar, others (such as myself) have very strong opinions in favour of the same...but these opinions are not what the OP was after, they were seen very clearly in another thread on this board.

Many of us attempted to respond in the manner requested, others (e.g. buzuxi) decided to write a propaganda piece full of bias, half-truths, and outright false information.
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« Reply #477 on: December 03, 2007, 12:15:40 PM »

You will note that the OP requested an objective analysis of the situation, independent of personal opinion and emotions. Some have very strong opinions against the revised calendar, others (such as myself) have very strong opinions in favour of the same...but these opinions are not what the OP was after, they were seen very clearly in another thread on this board.

Many of us attempted to respond in the manner requested, others (e.g. buzuxi) decided to write a propaganda piece full of bias, half-truths, and outright false information.

God bless !

But can you not see, that it is not objective to make people silent only because they have another opinion- is this just ? It does not matter if someone is old or new calender - everyone should have the right to post his opinion- but it isn't. You should read how unfair my posts often were answered and how people get upset....

My "personal opinion" is, the changing of the calendar was wrong and not correct but 13 days can not save a soul and in the New Calendar Chuch are great Elders and Saints and traditional orthodox christians and also many anti-ecumenists......and their Mysteries are valid of course, and we have to wait a decision on the whole matter,and not try to create one Schisma after the other, but also be careful.( this is my personal opinion) and beside this we should all keep peace - both New and Old calendarian orthodox.

IN CHRIST
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« Reply #478 on: December 03, 2007, 02:30:09 PM »

it is not objective to make people silent only because they have another opinion- is this just ?
No one here is silencing "another" opinion. You are free to hold whatever opinion you want, and you are even free to post about it as long as you do not break forum rules. But in this thread, the OP has requested that we give only facts and not opinion. So here we post facts, elsewhere we can post opinions. This is not a conspiracy, this is having respect for the OP.
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« Reply #479 on: December 03, 2007, 02:48:41 PM »

But can you not see, that it is not objective to make people silent only because they share another opinion- is this just ? It does not matter if someone is old or new calender - everyone should have the right to post his opinion- but it isn't. You should read how unfair my posts often were answered and how people get upset....

I think you missed my point, we have many threads of debate and I think that's great. But the OP specifically asked for objective information, information without bias was desired. And while any presentation of facts carries with it some level of bias, it is not unreasonable to at least feign objectivity. For instance, Anastasios gave information relative to your side without the clear bias and propaganda presented by some here.
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« Reply #480 on: December 03, 2007, 03:46:44 PM »

What was Father's points that struck you to agree on?

Grace and Peace username!,

"username!"  laugh I laugh every time I read your name. You have a great sense of honour! God Bless!

I guess what first struck me was how sincere Father was that it was important to observe the great feast on the proper days... their tie in with the 'Prayers of the Dead' and the synergy with the Jewish Lunar Calendar... and how the Gregorian Calendar fails to do this.


Your thoughts?
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« Reply #481 on: December 03, 2007, 04:00:53 PM »

Grace and Peace username!,

"username!"  laugh I laugh every time I read your name. You have a great sense of honour! God Bless!

I guess what first struck me was how sincere Father was that it was important to observe the great feast on the proper days... their tie in with the 'Prayers of the Dead' and the synergy with the Jewish Lunar Calendar... and how the Gregorian Calendar fails to do this.


Your thoughts?

Interesting, considering the reasoning for fixing pascha as it was at Nicea.

From the synod we read,

Quote
It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the
holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the
Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and
whose minds were blinded.  In rejecting their custom, we may
transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,
which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the
present day [according to the day of the week].  We ought not,
therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour
has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and
more convenient course (the order of the days of the week); and
consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest
brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the
Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without
their direction we could not keep this feast.  How can they be in the
right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been
led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.txt
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« Reply #482 on: December 03, 2007, 04:07:47 PM »

This time we're correct, the Revised Julian calendar took into account astronomical calculations that were not included in the Gregorian Calendar. As we will be inline with scientifc observations this time, it's up to the Latins to change their calendar.
OK. Congratulations on that.
Blessings.
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« Reply #483 on: December 03, 2007, 04:15:55 PM »

OK. Congratulations on that.
Blessings.

Well, that's the advantage of having an extra 300 years of scientific observations.

Fortunately, the simple addition of an extra day probably won't be as big of an issue for you as it was for us. (Especially in 800 years.)
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« Reply #484 on: December 04, 2007, 02:20:36 PM »

Meletios connection with the british government, freemasonry, and close relations to the anglicans,

and from another thread, emphasis added:

Quote
the heresiarch Meletios Metaxakis who was both an anglican minister while simutaneously being a patriarch.


 Huh Huh Huh

Ebor
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« Reply #485 on: December 04, 2007, 11:18:17 PM »

and from another thread, emphasis added:


 Huh Huh Huh

Ebor

The circumstantial evidence does point to this. You can send a pm to me if you like to elaborate.
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« Reply #486 on: December 04, 2007, 11:19:58 PM »

The circumstantial evidence does point to this. You can send a pm to me if you like to elaborate.

Given that you made the claim in public, why don't you share the evidence with all of us?
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« Reply #487 on: December 04, 2007, 11:26:38 PM »

Given that you made the claim in public, why don't you share the evidence with all of us?

Hear, hear.
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« Reply #488 on: December 04, 2007, 11:26:57 PM »

I am in agreement with Veniamin.  The statements that I quoted were made in on a public forum.  The latter one in particular is quite serious and, I'm sorry, to me very dubious.  Why should such a momentous and public accusation against both an EP and my Church be "supported" on private?

How is that fair to  the late EP who deserves to be treated properly regarding evidence even if one does not think much of him or something he did?  
 Undecided

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« Reply #489 on: December 04, 2007, 11:42:09 PM »

Grace and Peace username!,
....and the synergy with the Jewish Lunar Calendar... and how the Gregorian Calendar fails to do this.

I used to think that synergy with the Jewish calendar was important, until I realised that the Jews changed their calendar.  The calendar that the Jews have used since the early centuries after the Resurrection of Our Lord is the one that the Julian tries to correspond with, and this calendar is quite different from the previously used Jewish calendar, including the way in which Passover is calculated, and it seems to be calculated now in a questionable way.  (The previous Jewish calendar was the one in use at the time of Christ's passion.)  So it's really not important that our calendar correspond to the Jewish one, unless you happen to think that we should follow the Jews whenever they change their calendar, whether the change is appropriate or not.
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« Reply #490 on: December 04, 2007, 11:50:03 PM »

The circumstantial evidence does point to this. You can send a pm to me if you like to elaborate.

Theoretically a priest or deacon in Greece would be under the jurisdiction of the bishop of Convocation of American Churches in Europe. These can be looked up. Anglicans have, as a rule, very strict systems for moving from bishop to bishop and place to place. We have these things called records. If he was ever ordained by us, it is possible to find out where and who by. Of course, since I'm pretty sure that by that time we recognized his orders, we wouldn't have re-ordained/consecrated him anyway, but that's another quibble.
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« Reply #491 on: December 05, 2007, 12:08:45 AM »

Given that you made the claim in public, why don't you share the evidence with all of us?
Agreed.  Public claims need to be defended publicly.
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« Reply #492 on: December 05, 2007, 01:28:44 AM »

hard to do since i would like to email some links which explain his controversial acts..

But the gist is, he done things with anglicans that seem to go beyond a simple relationship. For instance in 1921 while visiting America he vested and took part in the anglican liturgy.

If i walk into Divine Liturgy one sunday and see a priest i never seen before, concelebratiing, i would assume he is Orthodox, likewise with the reverse. In the case of Meletios, the greek amabassador to washington contacted the Church of Greece, relayed the facts and asked what the heck was going on. The Synod of Greece opened an investigation which deposed him in Dec 9, 1921 for schism and numerous canonical violations. He was secretly and uncanonically elected to the EP alittle before the Church of Greece issued its statement.
In the pan-orthodox congress of 1923, the anglican bishop Charles Gore sat at the patriatchs right side and took part in the proceedings, being closer to the patriarch than his own Synod.  Once again, if Meletios was not an anglican, i dont see how this could take place. How did he know him so well, and why let him take part in an Orthodox council?

but it gets better, he recognized anglican orders and asked all the other Churches to do the same, the encyclical he issued claimed the Orthodox Church has always recognized them from the time of the 16th century anglican bishop Matthew Parker (One of the 'fathers' of Anglicanism). (the document never mentions 'right-belief' as being a pre-requisite for apostolic succession). Finally in 1930 while Patriarch of Alexandria he led a delegation to the anglican Lambeth Conference and lead talks for full unity.   
Many documents can be found at the anglican website "Project Canterbury". Also many Orthodox documents socumenting the same.
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« Reply #493 on: December 05, 2007, 02:18:50 AM »

hard to do since i would like to email some links which explain his controversial acts..

But the gist is, he done things with anglicans that seem to go beyond a simple relationship. For instance in 1921 while visiting America he vested and took part in the anglican liturgy.

If i walk into Divine Liturgy one sunday and see a priest i never seen before, concelebratiing, i would assume he is Orthodox, likewise with the reverse. In the case of Meletios, the greek amabassador to washington contacted the Church of Greece, relayed the facts and asked what the heck was going on. The Synod of Greece opened an investigation which deposed him in Dec 9, 1921 for schism and numerous canonical violations. He was secretly and uncanonically elected to the EP alittle before the Church of Greece issued its statement.
In the pan-orthodox congress of 1923, the anglican bishop Charles Gore sat at the patriatchs right side and took part in the proceedings, being closer to the patriarch than his own Synod.  Once again, if Meletios was not an anglican, i dont see how this could take place. How did he know him so well, and why let him take part in an Orthodox council?

but it gets better, he recognized anglican orders and asked all the other Churches to do the same, the encyclical he issued claimed the Orthodox Church has always recognized them from the time of the 16th century anglican bishop Matthew Parker (One of the 'fathers' of Anglicanism). (the document never mentions 'right-belief' as being a pre-requisite for apostolic succession). Finally in 1930 while Patriarch of Alexandria he led a delegation to the anglican Lambeth Conference and lead talks for full unity.   
Many documents can be found at the anglican website "Project Canterbury". Also many Orthodox documents socumenting the same.


This is merely more claims. It does not constitute evidence.
Please provide the evidence for your claims as has been requested of you.
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« Reply #494 on: December 05, 2007, 02:22:04 AM »

Why would i make things up? Im an ethnic greek, a cradle Orthodox, faithful to Orthodox Christianity. I'm just listing things which are common knowledge amongst greeks, who know the history. I'm trying to wake the laity, to recognize this controversial figure and reject his reforms and get on with healing the schisms that have surfaced. Theres nothing like family and relatives fractured, celebrating the same feasts on differing days, yet both Orthodox. While one side of the family is baking and enjoying their pastries, the other is still fasting, and cany come together as one Orthodox family. Quite sad.

And i know many in here do know what im talking about, and know about these facts. These are not secrets. What is my opinion on the other hand is based on the circumstantial evidence: that on the anglican side, i will have to assume they recognized him as one of their own, considering the close relationship with their church and the taking part of their liturgy during his stay in America (among the other things i've mentioned and havent mentioned). 

 Am i allowed to post outside links on this forum? I'll be glad to provide them.
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