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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 205868 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #405 on: December 10, 2006, 06:45:01 PM »

The Canon to celebrate Pascha "not with the Jews" simnply means that Pascha should always be celebrated on a Sunday, and not on whatever day of the week 14th Nissan falls as the Tessareskaedecatites were doing.
Just to clarify. By this I mean that it would be incorrect to say that the Canon means that we are not to calculate Pascha according to the Jewish Passover, because that is exactly what we are doing. The "First Vernal Full Moon" which we use to calculate Pascha is the Nomical Jewish Passover.
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« Reply #406 on: December 10, 2006, 06:48:25 PM »

You are assuming the same day is used for the new/full moon by the Gregorian and Jewish calculations, they are not. Thus the first day of the Jewish passover, 15 Nisan, can and does coincide with the Gregorian Pascha as it did in 1981 (though I dont believe this will happen again any time soon). Though, of more concern are those years when passover is the day immediately prior to Pascha, which could imply that the resurrection is being celebrated according to the feasts of the Jews. This last happened in 1998 and will next occur in 2012 and 2015.
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« Reply #407 on: December 10, 2006, 06:57:14 PM »

You are assuming the same day is used for the new/full moon by the Gregorian and Jewish calculations
No I'm not.
I said the "Nomical Passover", not the calculation according to the Calendar reforms of Rabbi Hillel II.
Subtle qualifiers are another thing I learned from you. Wink
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« Reply #408 on: December 10, 2006, 07:15:15 PM »

No I'm not.
I said the "Nomical Passover", not the calculation according to the Calendar reforms of Rabbi Hillel II.
Subtle qualifiers are another thing I learned from you. Wink

LOL, I guess I should have read what you wrote more carefully. But that still leaves us with the problem of the Gregorian Pascha and Jewish Passover coinciding.
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« Reply #409 on: December 10, 2006, 11:21:48 PM »

Thank you all for the replies (even though the whole discussion went off-topic very quick). Anastasios was able to offer me some insight outside the forum and I realized that I will leave the decision to my parents. If they want to switch over to the New Calendar, then so be it. Wherever they go, I go (even though I would preferably like to remain with the Old Calendar). Thank you anyways for taking the time to read over this and please do not continue the Old vs. New arguement, we are all Orthodox at the end of the day. Once again, thank you and take care!
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« Reply #410 on: December 11, 2006, 08:38:56 AM »

LOL, I guess I should have read what you wrote more carefully. But that still leaves us with the problem of the Gregorian Pascha and Jewish Passover coinciding.
That is not a problem, it was never a problem. Because I don't think that the intention of the Fathers was that the Christian Pascha and Passover as calculated by the Jews should never coincide. What should never coincide is 15th Nissan (as calculated by the Church) and Pascha Sunday. It is my opinion that the intention of the Fathers was that we should make our own calculation of Passover according to Scriptural means (the first vernal full moon), rather than using the calculation methods of the various Jewish Communities throughout the diaspora, and based on our own calculation of Passover, we should celebrate Pascha on the following Sunday. Thus "not with the Jews" means "don't calculate Pascha based on Jewish calculations of the Passover, but rather, make your own calculations". The reason for this is obvious in that the current errors in the Hillel II Jewish Calendar means that Passover is sometimes a month late and is celebrated on the second rather than the first Vernal Full Moon.
Think about it: If the recently re-established Sanhedrin in Israel becomes recognised and decides to calculate Passover in a way that makes it coincide with the Julian Pascha, should we then convene an Oecumenical Council to change the date of our Pascha? And what if we do this, and the Sanhedrin decides to change their date of Passover to coincide with our new date for Pascha? I don't think the Canon to celebrate Pascha "not with the Jews" was intended to mean that we should change the date of our Pascha every time the Jews change the date of their Passover to coincide with it. And, in fact, if we did this, we would be doing the very thing the Fathers meant us not to do, i.e. calculate Pascha according to Jewish rather than Orthodox Christian means.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 08:44:47 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #411 on: December 11, 2006, 08:50:22 PM »

I'm not 100% certain why we're arguing, though it's probably because I can't help myself. Grin I agree with you, as I implied in my original post on this subject; as long as the intention is not to coincide with the Jewish Passover then it's not really an issue according to Nicea. That they cannot ever coincide is going one step beyond the synod.
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« Reply #412 on: December 12, 2006, 04:00:52 PM »

Ummm...actually the Synod of Nicea clearly states it's primary purpose in setting a date for Pascha is to NOT Celebrate it the same time as the Jewish Passover. The only years where the Gregorian celebration of Pascha is actually a real problem according to the reasoning of the Synod of Nicea is when it corresponds with the passover; and even then, it is dubious whether this would be a problem as the concern of the synod was that our Pascha should not be based on the Jewish Passover, a rare coincidental correlation between the two is not the same issue as that with which the synod expressed concern.

I haven't really got anything to add to George's explanation of this, which I think is sufficient.

Quote
Maybe for the fifteen non-monastics in the world who actually follow that fast.

Although I would venture to guess the number is slightly higher than 15, that is neither here nor there. This fast is part of the Holy Tradition of the Church and to remove this fast completely (which does happen in certain years for those following the New Calendar) is to act contrary to Her canons.

Whether or not people chose to ignore the prescribed fasts of the Church, established for their well being and spiritual progress, is a separate issue, which concerns them and their spiritual guide only.
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« Reply #413 on: December 15, 2006, 08:47:19 AM »

Maybe for the fifteen non-monastics in the world who actually follow that fast. (And I'm sure all fifteen post on OC.net and are going to now inform me of their piety Grin)

HEY!!  SOME of us actually go to traditional churches where not following the fast is not only punishable by beatings and scoldings, but by eternal damnation!!!   Wink Grin

The thing that always got me about the Calanders is Christmas.  IF technically on the Julian Calander Christmas is on Dec. 25, but on the Gregorian it comes out to January 7, then am I celebrating Christmas on the same day?  Or a different day?   Or the same day on a different day?  So can I take communion on "both days"?  Or is it the same day?  If its the same day, how can I take communion twice? 

Anway...you should all go Serbian anyway...I mean...who wouldn't want to go to a church that has a fully stocked bar...common... Wink Tongue

I do agree in a larger sense though that the Calander's don't really matter.  It does get confusing, especially with fasting...

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« Reply #414 on: December 15, 2006, 10:10:20 AM »

HEY!!  SOME of us actually go to traditional churches where not following the fast is not only punishable by beatings and scoldings, but by eternal damnation!!!   Wink Grin

The thing that always got me about the Calanders is Christmas.  IF technically on the Julian Calander Christmas is on Dec. 25, but on the Gregorian it comes out to January 7, then am I celebrating Christmas on the same day?  Or a different day?   Or the same day on a different day?  So can I take communion on "both days"?  Or is it the same day?  If its the same day, how can I take communion twice? 

Anway...you should all go Serbian anyway...I mean...who wouldn't want to go to a church that has a fully stocked bar...common... Wink Tongue

I do agree in a larger sense though that the Calander's don't really matter.  It does get confusing, especially with fasting...

Would the new more refined calendar be more accepted among Orthodox if it wasn't named after a Catholic pope? Perhaps it looks like a symbolic concession for Orthodox who are allergic to any concessions to the West.
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« Reply #415 on: December 15, 2006, 10:44:36 AM »

But that still leaves us with the problem of the Gregorian Pascha and Jewish Passover coinciding.
How is that our problem?
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« Reply #416 on: December 15, 2006, 10:46:40 AM »

Would the new more refined calendar be more accepted among Orthodox if it wasn't named after a Catholic pope?
Not really, particularly since the OCA is now using the Revised Julian Calendar which is slightly more accurate that the Gregorian one.

We just want to keep our Christmas 13 days after the Western one so that we can shop during all the after-Christmas sales.
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« Reply #417 on: November 21, 2007, 05:04:54 PM »

And let me tell you- I hope u know that the New Calender is under anathema.

Are you implying that we are devout of grace?  Undecided


MODERATION:  I exhumed this buried thread to allow for a discussion of the anathema against the New Calendar that started on this thread regarding beards and Tradition:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12921.135.html#lastPost

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« Reply #418 on: November 21, 2007, 05:35:32 PM »

And let me tell you- I hope u know that the New Calender is under anathema.
But I think this would be a topic for a new thread.

You're making my job too easy, but by all means, keep it up. Wink
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« Reply #419 on: November 21, 2007, 10:30:15 PM »

Are you implying that we are devout of grace?  Undecided
I believe you meant to say "devoid." Slight difference. Wink
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« Reply #420 on: November 21, 2007, 11:31:52 PM »

I believe you meant to say "devoid." Slight difference. Wink

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« Reply #421 on: November 22, 2007, 12:09:38 AM »

 Cheesy
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« Reply #422 on: November 22, 2007, 12:46:44 PM »

Are you implying that we are devout of grace?  Undecided

God bless !

You know that the old calendarians are divided on the same question !

Please, I hope I am right, but the Cyprianites say - it was not right but, your Myseries are valid
                                      the Matthewites say your Mysteries are invalid.
                                     

I only can say that it was not right to change it, but there are great Elders also in the New Calender Church, I also witnessed miracles ......
And many many Elders of the New Calender Church were also against this change but did not seperate -like Blessed Elder Philotheos Zervakos, St. Papa Nicholas Planas,...........I think they thought that the church will return once......

You know that the calender is only one of many things they tried to change like the fasts, the feastdays, the Liturgys..............but glory to God it did not happen until now.

Many of the old calendarian leaders are procclaimed Saints:
Archbishop Chrysostomos of Florina is fragrant.
St. Glicherie of Romania
St. Myrtidiotissa - Archbishop Cyprian was a spiritual son of Her( but also of Bl. E.Philotheos)
St. John the romanian the confessor of the old calender
.............

and please do not forget all the signs wich were given from God - not to change it !

the appearance of the Holy Cross over Athen during the Vigil of the old calendar feast of the elevation of the cross.
it was said that the Holy Fire did not appear in Jerusalem when the calender was changed so the Patriarch returned to the old
in Valaam a monk prayed to the Mother of God to show wich Calender is the right - and he heard the Voice of the Theotokos and she said go with old one- it is the correct one
( I think it was Schema-Hieromonk Nicholas of Valaam)
St.Myrtidiotissa also asked the Theotokos and she said the same; Sophia go with the old, it is the correct one
I know some of the Cyprianites ( of Archbishop Cyprian of Fili) and I witnessed miracles and signs there
and many others.........

But it must be clear that these signs only demonstrates the correctness of the Decision of the former Synods were the New Paschalion and MENOLOGION was condemned. ( please notice also the menologion - often new calendearists say it was only the Paschalion but that's not true).

So I hope I could answer your question a bit.

In CHRIST
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« Reply #423 on: November 22, 2007, 01:15:16 PM »

Our calender is a revised version of the Julian. It's more of a repair. We never really went over to the Gregorian. The most important thing to remember is that the church is an image of the end times and not the actual end times. To say that anyone wheather in the church or not doesn't have grace is pitiful and not Christian.
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« Reply #424 on: November 22, 2007, 01:39:56 PM »

Our calender is a revised version of the Julian. It's more of a repair. We never really went over to the Gregorian. The most important thing to remember is that the church is an image of the end times and not the actual end times. To say that anyone wheather in the church or not doesn't have grace is pitiful and not Christian.

God bless !

I know this argument ( the reason I mentioned the Menologion), it was changed ( not the Paschalion) and the signs of God and his saints are proof enough. And many New Calender Elders knew this !

For me it is not pitiful because all the Saints did the same - did they not say anathema to Arius..Nestorius......did not the Patriarchs say anathema to the new Paschalion, Menologion.....anthema to all those who follow the papal calender.....do you think our Patriarch were pitiful.
True chrisitan love has nothing todo with worldly sentimental love. When they say anathema, means not that they hate all those, but that they love them and because they love them, they must be true and clear and tell them: return from the errors otherwise you are outside the church !
Arius only had to abandon his mistakes- he would be not excluded from the clergy if he had repent and turned away from his wrong understanding - but he did not - he was too proud like all the other heretics.

So it would be contrary to love, to say all have truth and all is good !

IN CHRIST
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« Reply #425 on: November 22, 2007, 04:40:51 PM »

MODERATION:  I exhumed this buried thread to allow for a discussion of the anathema against the New Calendar that started on this thread regarding beards and Tradition:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12921.135.html#lastPost

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To those of you following this latest discussion:  I encourage you, with an eye for more enlightened discussion today, to read the previous posts on this revived thread to educate yourselves on what others have said about this in the past.  Feel free also to comment on these earlier posts.  Just remember, though, that some of the original posters on this thread are no longer with us if you want to ask them questions.

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« Reply #426 on: November 22, 2007, 06:27:11 PM »

God bless !

And let me ask you - was the change of the calender an act of Love ? I think it was not.
And also the persecution of the old calendarians through the new calendarians -they were persecuted, beaten, even killed -the New Martyr Cathrine was killed - is this LOVE ? Priests were imprisoned, their Hair was cut and beard also, churches were closed, even the Holy Gifts were blasphemed......and all this only because some orthodox did not except the new calender ?

The same was in Romania - there also the oldcal were beaten, they had to hide themslefs in the forrests.......St. Glicherie was often beaten and persecuted his Hands were swollen from the beatings.......is this LOVE ?

And even now they go on to discredit them as fanatics, schismatics, .........in a time when many of the New Calendarians call even catholics brothers and sisters ? Is this LOVE..

Is it LOVE when the Patriarch of Constantinopel persecutes the monks of esphigmenou by Police and violence - some monks even died ( I was told) because of hunger ? Old calendarians are not allowed to go to Mount Athos - is this love - when heterodox are allowed ?

 Testifying to the uncanny connection between the miracle of the Holy Fire and the Church Calendar, Archimandrite Sergius (Iazadjiev) relates the following:

In August of 1971, Nikolai [now Hieromonk Theophan] and I were coming back from rest and medical treatment at Narechen. Passing through the town of Plovdiv, we called in at the Metochion of Zographou to venerate the tomb of the Holy King Boris. Schema-monk Seraphim of Zographou was in attendance at the tomb. He told us that recently (1969-70), under pressure from the Geneva-based World Council of Churches, the Jerusalem Patriarchate had introduced the 'New Julian' Calendar (as had the Bulgarian, Macedonian, and other Patriarchates, since there was overwhelming pressure at the time to introduce the New Calendar). That same year, on Great Saturday, when from time immemorial the Holy Fire descends on the Lord's Sepulchre, this year the Fire did not appear. Shocked, Patriarch Benedict of Jerusalem commanded that the Old Calendar, which had been in use until then, be restored immediately in the jurisdiction of his Patriarchate. The next year, the Holy Fire once again descended on the Lord's Sepulchre on Great Saturday; the same occurs even until the present.


Another important miracle verifying the sacrosanct character of Orthodox Pascha is described in a letter from Bishop Paschasinus of Lilybaeum (Marsala), Sicily,153 to Saint Leo the Great ( 461). Regarding a discrepancy between the Roman and Alexandrian calculations of Pascha, Bishop Paschasinus writes:

After much scrutiny and debate, we found that what the Patriarch of the Church of Alexandria had written to Your Beatitude was correct. Since the Roman computation for the year in question [444], the sixty-third year of its cycle..., was March 26, we were inclined to doubt that this date for Pascha was correct, but in fact that it was on April 23. Confused and uncertain, we consulted the Jewish calculation, now ignored by the Romans-which is why they sometimes fall into error....
For the time being, let us not be afraid of the lateness of the date of Pascha, lest by trying to avoid it, we fall into error, as happened during the reign of your predecessor, Zosimas [ 418].... At that time, by hastening the celebration of Pascha from its date of April 22 to March 25..., a very grievous error was committed; so grave that the true date was proved by a miracle enacted by the Grace of the Holy Spirit....
This miracle is as follows: In the high mountains, in the midst of thick forests, there was a very impoverished region by the name of 'Meltinas.' By strained efforts, a small Church had been constructed there. In the Baptistery, during the Holy Night of Pascha, at the time appointed for Baptisms, despite the fact that there were no pipes or aqueducts, let alone any water in the vicinity, the Baptismal Font would fill by itself. After the few present were sanctified [Baptized], the water would dissipate in the same way that it had appeared.
In the time of the Blessed Pope Zosimas, however, when the Westerners were in error with regard to the calculation of the Paschal date, during the night of Pascha, having finished the lections, the Presbyter waited, as usual, for the time of the Baptism: waiting, indeed, until morning. Since the water did not appear, though, those waiting to be Baptized went home unsanctified [un-Baptized].
Continuing, let me say that during the Eve of Pascha on the tenth calends of May [i.e., on the Alexandrian date of April 22], the Font filled with water at the appropriate time. Through this obvious miracle, it was proved that the Westerners were in error with respect to the date of Pascha.


"On Pascha, 1996, a dried and dead wreath of thorns, placed on a Cross with an Icon of the Crucified Christ that adorns the Chapel of the Hermitage of Sts. Cyprian and Justina, a small monastic community in Pyrgos, Greece, under the jurisdiction of.[Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili], began to sprout green leaves. This moving image of the life which we Orthodox Christians find even in death is a fitting testimony to the mystery of Christ's Pascha and His life-bestowing Death and Resurrection. Archimandrite Father Gregory, Superior of the Brotherhood in Pyrgos, reports that the wreath, unwatered and otherwise completely dry and dead, continues to this day to produce green leaves and evidence of life" (Orthodox Tradition, Vol. xiv, Nos. 2 & 3 [1997], p. 44).-Eds.]

Saint Savvas the New ( 1948), who followed the Old Calendar during his many years on Mount Athos and in Jerusalem. However, he reposed in the Convent of All Saints on Kalymnos, a convent which out of obedience to the local Bishop had adopted the New Calendar. Nonetheless, when Saint Savvas reposed on April 7 (New Style), one of the nuns was granted a vision of his soul ascending to Heaven, in which she heard him chanting, "Announce, O earth, great joy"-a hymn for the Annunciation, a Feast which the Old Calendarists at that very time were celebrating (see Constantine Cavarnos, St. Savvas the New.

After the calendar reform of 1924, when those who maintained the Old Calendar were first being persecuted, Saint Nicholas wanted to serve the Feast of the Holy Prophet Elisseos in the Church dedicated to his name in Athens (it has since been demolished), but decided against it after considering the possible confrontations which might ensue; he arranged, therefore, to serve at the Church of Saint Spyridon in Mantouka instead. However, the next day, June 14 (Old Style), found Saint Nicholas in the Church of Saint Elisseos, serving the Divine Liturgy in honor of the Holy Prophet. In great perplexity, his spiritual children asked him why he had changed his mind, to which Saint Nicholas replied with his characteristic simplicity, "...[T]his morning I saw the Prophet and he told me to come here to serve and not to fear anything, because he will watch over me" (Papa-Nicholas Planas, op. cit., p. 54 ).-Eds.]

And many others....

In CHRIST
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« Reply #427 on: November 22, 2007, 06:42:53 PM »

And let me ask you - was the change of the calender an act of Love ? I think it was not.
And also the persecution of the old calendarians through the new calendarians -they were persecuted, beaten, even killed -the New Martyr Cathrine was killed - is this LOVE ? Priests were imprisoned, their Hair was cut and beard also, churches were closed, even the Holy Gifts were blasphemed......and all this only because some orthodox did not except the new calender ?

The same was in Romania - there also the oldcal were beaten, they had to hide themslefs in the forrests.......St. Glicherie was often beaten and persecuted his Hands were swollen from the beatings.......is this LOVE ?

And even now they go on to discredit them as fanatics, schismatics, .........in a time when many of the New Calendarians call even catholics brothers and sisters ? Is this LOVE..

Is it LOVE when the Patriarch of Constantinopel persecutes the monks of esphigmenou by Police and violence - some monks even died ( I was told) because of hunger ? Old calendarians are not allowed to go to Mount Athos - is this love - when heterodox are allowed ?

Please don't judge the correctness or lack thereof of a particular point of view by the oppressive persecutions used to advance that point of view.  I share your disgust with how Old Calendarists have been persecuted by advocates of the New Calendar, but that is a judgment of those people who sought to advance their reforms through such destructive means, not a judgment of the substance of the calendar reform itself.  And I'm sure other groups facing persecution interpreted unusual natural signs as divine witnesses to the correctness of their positions, even though they really were heretics.  I think it's been said before on OCnet that "miraculous" signs are not to be seen as proof of the Orthodoxy of a dogmatic position.
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« Reply #428 on: November 22, 2007, 06:52:55 PM »

I'm sure the situation is very different in America (as with everything else), but at least from my own personal experience I've yet to meet a single Greek or Romanian Orthodox (new calendar) priest that thought the calendar change was a good idea. Without exception (again, just from my encounters) they all wished for a return to the traditional Church Calendar.

"Surely by their fruits ye shall fully know them." Other than astronomical correctness (who cares?) I've yet to see a single good fruit brought about by the new calendar; only division. Not to mention the loss of two weeks from the Apostles Fast.
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« Reply #429 on: November 22, 2007, 07:13:49 PM »

Please don't judge the correctness or lack thereof of a particular point of view by the oppressive persecutions used to advance that point of view.  I share your disgust with how Old Calendarists have been persecuted by advocates of the New Calendar, but that is a judgment of those people who sought to advance their reforms through such destructive means, not a judgment of the substance of the calendar reform itself.  And I'm sure other groups facing persecution interpreted unusual natural signs as divine witnesses to the correctness of their positions, even though they really were heretics.  I think it's been said before on OCnet that "miraculous" signs are not to be seen as proof of the Orthodoxy of a dogmatic position.

God bless u Peter !

Please forgive but I can not agree that miraculous signs are not a proof for a dogmatic positin.

Because the Ecumenical Synods  and many other Dogmatical questions, in the history of the church were prooved by divine signs. Even the orthodox church was founded through miracles like Pentecoste,...

So of course the Calender.

In CHRIST
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« Reply #430 on: November 22, 2007, 07:28:40 PM »

I'm sure the situation is very different in America (as with everything else), but at least from my own personal experience I've yet to meet a single Greek or Romanian Orthodox (new calendar) priest that thought the calendar change was a good idea. Without exception (again, just from my encounters) they all wished for a return to the traditional Church Calendar.
And I, an American who follows the New Calendar, certainly don't like many of the methods used to embrace and enforce use of the New Calendar both here and in Orthodox Europe.

Quote
"Surely by their fruits ye shall fully know them." Other than astronomical correctness (who cares?)
So the Holy Fathers of Nicea didn't think astronomical correctness important when they set the rules for when Pascha would be celebrated and made Alexandria, the astronomical center of the world at that time, the final arbiter on the date?

Quote
I've yet to see a single good fruit brought about by the new calendar; only division. Not to mention the loss of two weeks from the Apostles Fast.
Are you objecting to the New Calendar itself, or to the way its use was enacted?  Are you also aware that if we were to make our Paschalion more astronomically correct, the shortening of the Apostles' Fast would be remedied?
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« Reply #431 on: November 22, 2007, 08:02:55 PM »

Please forgive but I can not agree that miraculous signs are not a proof for a dogmatic positin.

If you read the biography of Elder Ephraim of Katounakia published by Vatopaidi, the use of miracles is cited as justification for using the new calendar.  In general, almost every religion and sect thereof uses signs of some sort - Hindus have miracles, Muslims have miracles - should one embrace their dogmas? 
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« Reply #432 on: November 22, 2007, 08:24:03 PM »

If you read the biography of Elder Ephraim of Katounakia published by Vatopaidi, the use of miracles is cited as justification for using the new calendar.  In general, almost every religion and sect thereof uses signs of some sort - Hindus have miracles, Muslims have miracles - should one embrace their dogmas? 

God bless !

Yes I know, but it is a fact that even during the Ecumenical Synods signs were given. I think we have to be very careful with miracles and should proof them - if they are from God or from an other Spirit. A miracle wich is against any Dogma or Teaching of the Church can not be true or from God.

Like I have written they only show the correctness of the Decision of the Patriarchs.

Saint Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain ( 1809), in his exposition of the Seventh Apostolic Canon, as evidence of the sacred character of the Church Calendar. Saint Nicodemos further cites another unusual example: "...In the region of Heliopolis, Egypt, where the great pyramids are, God performs the following strange paradox every year, to wit: on the evening of our (not the Latins') Holy Thursday, the earth vomits old human relics and bones, which cover the ground of an extensive plain.........

Do you see also St.Nikodemus use such miracles as evidence for truth. I think today we have to face an abuse with visions and miracles but true visions and miracles also happen.

In CHRIST
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« Reply #433 on: November 22, 2007, 08:45:55 PM »

Oh, that makes sense then.  If a miracle supports the dogma you already hold to be true, then it is a true miracle.  If you don't believe in the dogma before hand, then it is a false miracle.  Right?
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« Reply #434 on: November 22, 2007, 11:05:46 PM »

Talk about a "blast from the past".  I remember this thread. 
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« Reply #435 on: November 22, 2007, 11:55:19 PM »

I'm sure the situation is very different in America (as with everything else), but at least from my own personal experience I've yet to meet a single Greek or Romanian Orthodox (new calendar) priest that thought the calendar change was a good idea. Without exception (again, just from my encounters) they all wished for a return to the traditional Church Calendar.

Too bad so many people confuse "conservative" with "traditional."  In history, it seems that it is always the conservative who fall into schism or heresy.  (For example, Russian Old Believers.) 

Quote
"Surely by their fruits ye shall fully know them." Other than astronomical correctness (who cares?) I've yet to see a single good fruit brought about by the new calendar; only division. Not to mention the loss of two weeks from the Apostles Fast.

Fruits?  Calendars don't have fruits.  They're a way of marking the passage of time.  There's nothing "mystical" or "holy" about them.  Of course, I agree that the way that the new calendar was brought into play was often a very regrettable and ugly part of Orthodox history.  You're right to say that the calendar causes divisions.  It's pathetic, quite frankly.  We Orthodox should be embarrassed by this.  But it seems to me that it is many conservatives who are perpetuating the divisions of which you speak nowadays. 

You don't like the loss of time from the Apostle's fast.  Fair enough.  I guess that means that you really like it when the feast of the Annuciation falls in Holy Week.  (This only happens on the old calendar.)  Seems really appropriate to me.  Wink  Or how about having the Annunciation fall at the same time as Pascha, ie Kyriopascha?  You don't care about accuracy?  That's good, because the old calendar is hopelessly inaccurate.  It's supposed to gain a day every century to help it make up some of this inaccuracy, but they stopped doing it after 1900 for some reason. 

Forgive me for the level of sarcasm I display here.  I know that there are some wonderful people in Orthodoxy using the old calendar, and I wouldn't want to break communion with them over what I see (in some ways) as a trivial issue.  If it were up to me, (thankfully it is not!) and in the end it would mean that I could preserve Orthodox unity, I might well choose to adopt the old calendar.  I would even use words like "thee" and "thou" in the English liturgy if I could preserve unity with Orthodox brothers and sisiters.  And this very thing is an extremely divisive issue right now in the North American Church.  You don't think this looks petty to non-Orthodox?  What kind of a witness is that, and how important is it really if I use thee and thou.....I guess I would just have to live with it, as much as I object to using "Kingjamesenese".
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« Reply #436 on: November 23, 2007, 12:03:02 AM »

I believe you meant to say "devoid." Slight difference. Wink

Why do I always have to play the bassoon?  Wink

(Apologies to Demetrios)
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« Reply #437 on: November 23, 2007, 03:18:25 PM »


While I do not consider it a matter of heresy, nor a cause for schism, I object to the introduction of the New Calendar (although I follow it in obedience to my bishop) because:
1. It has caused such a lot of uneccesary division.
2. The reasons for its introduction (ecumenism). Rather than actually bringing the heretical churches closer to Orthodoxy, it has made many within the Church suspicious of genuine dialogue and therefore made true ecumenism much more difficult than it was before.
3. The fact that the various local churches now feast and fast at different times.
4. The shortening of the Apostles Fast due to having two calendars simultaneously (and yes, I do think having the Announciation occasionally coinciding with Holy Week is preferable to occasionally losing an entire fast).

As for the New Calendar in and of itself, I can't really see any problem with it. But having two calendars at the same time is inane imho, and so it should be accepted totally (as the Finnish church has done), or not at all.

However, this would mean changing the Paschalion, which I believe (feel free to correct me) is contrary to the canons of the Church, given what the Fathers say about the time of Jewish Passover.

So I'd also object to the calendar on this basis.
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« Reply #438 on: November 23, 2007, 03:27:58 PM »

Another big problem with the New Calendar is, that it was condemned by mutliple local councils, and these councils placed an anathema on all those who adopted the Gregorian calendar.
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« Reply #439 on: November 23, 2007, 03:41:07 PM »

Another big problem with the New Calendar is, that it was condemned by mutliple local councils, and these councils placed an anathema on all those who adopted the Gregorian calendar.
So you accept as having ecumenical authority those local councils that express the faith you already hold fast and reject the authority of those local councils that do not?  Otherwise, why would an anathema pronounced by any local council have any binding authority upon all Orthodox Christians?
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« Reply #440 on: November 23, 2007, 03:44:51 PM »

Another big problem with the New Calendar is, that it was condemned by mutliple local councils, and these councils placed an anathema on all those who adopted the Gregorian calendar.

Problem is the Revised Julian Calendar is technically not the Gregorian Calendar.

(We just had a recent thread on that topic, somewhere.)
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« Reply #441 on: November 23, 2007, 04:01:46 PM »

However, this would mean changing the Paschalion, which I believe (feel free to correct me) is contrary to the canons of the Church, given what the Fathers say about the time of Jewish Passover.
I actually mulled over this very issue while reading quite a few articles on it, including the one you linked, during the most recent Paschaltide.  One conclusion I drew is that the Fathers of Nicea intended to separate the Church Paschalion completely from the Jewish Paschalion to make the former completely independent from the latter.  At the time of the Great Council, I don't believe it was even astronomically possible for Christians to celebrate Pascha before the Jews without also celebrating the Feast before the spring equinox, hence the interpretation of "not with the Jews" to also mean "not before the Jews".

Since then (almost 1700 years later), the time difference between the astronomical spring equinox and the date of the Jewish Passover has expanded in some years to the point that the Jews celebrate after the second full moon of spring, which, according to our current understanding, requires us to celebrate Pascha after this same second full moon.  I remember reading some of our conservatives actually acknowledging, as though it were desirable, that this slow creep would eventually push Pascha into the winter.  Ironically, in insisting that Pascha be celebrated after the Jews in keeping with our understanding of the Nicene prescription, we have made the scheduling of Pascha dependent once again on the Jewish scheduling of their Passover, which is exactly what the Nicene Fathers sought to prevent.


Note for you Aussies, in speaking of times and seasons above, I referred always to their reckoning in the Northern Hemisphere.  I'm sure you wouldn't mind someday actually celebrating Pascha in the spring. Wink
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« Reply #442 on: November 23, 2007, 05:32:05 PM »

So you accept as having ecumenical authority those local councils that express the faith you already hold fast and reject the authority of those local councils that do not?  Otherwise, why would an anathema pronounced by any local council have any binding authority upon all Orthodox Christians?

Well, to some degree I guess I do, but more importantly, those Churches that held these local Councils condemning the Gregorian Calendar are anathema if they themselves use the Gregorian Calendar today, and thus those that are in communion with those who are anathema are also anathema as well. 
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« Reply #443 on: November 23, 2007, 07:04:03 PM »

Well, to some degree I guess I do, but more importantly, those Churches that held these local Councils condemning the Gregorian Calendar are anathema if they themselves use the Gregorian Calendar today, and thus those that are in communion with those who are anathema are also anathema as well. 
If a local council pronounces an anathema, claiming to represent the unadulterated Orthodox Faith of the catholic Church, yet the rest of the Church rejects the anathema, does the anathema have any binding authority on anyone, even upon the local council that proclaimed the anathema?
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« Reply #444 on: November 23, 2007, 08:21:59 PM »

God bless !

I think the Synod of 1583 in Jerusalem was a Pan-Orthodox Council and the whole orthodox church agreed with their Decision, so their anathema is a pan-orthodox one !

and also other Pan-orthodox Synods condemned the New Calender:

Pan-orthodox Synod of Constantinopel 1587 condemned it
                            of Constantinopel 1593 condemned it

and many other Local Synods:

1670 Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem and his Holy Synod condemned it
1827 Ecumenical Patriarch Agathangelos and his Holy Synod condemned it
1895 Ecumenical Patriarch Anthimos VII and his Holy Synod
1902 Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim III and His Holy Synod
1903 Patriarch Damianos of Jerusalem and his Synod
1903 Holy Synod of the Church of Russia condemned it
1903 Holy Synod of the Church of Romania condemned it
1903 Holy Synod of the Church of Greece condemned it
1904 Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim III again condemned it
1919 Holy Synod of the Church of Greece again condemned it

1919 Meletios Metaxakis becomes Archbishop of Athens

1921 Metaxakis is deposed as Archbishop of Athens for canonical infractions and for causing schism !!!!!!!!
1922 without being canonical elected and though deposed by the Synod of Greece Meletios is enthroned as Ecumenical Patriarch !!!!!!!

1923 Chrysostomos Papadopoulos (future Archb of Athens) wrote: No Orthodox autocephalous Church can separate itself from the rest and accept the New Calender without becoming schismatic in the eyes of the others.

1923 in July outraged Orthodox Christians of Constantinopel physically expel Metaxakis from the premise of the Patriarchate. Metaxakis officially resigns as Ecumenical Patriarch in September citing "reason of health"

1924 Pressured by the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the State Church of Greece adopt the New Calendar on March10/23 1924

1924 in Romania Metr. Myron accepts the New Calendar. Shortly thereafter, working in close conjunction with the *Eastern Catholic prime Minister of Romania, Julius Manius, he unilaterally adopts the Western Paschalion as well. Riots break out in the streets over this issue, and the adoption of the Western Paschalion is retracted.

1924 In unanimity with Patr. Gregory of Antioch, Patr.Damianos of Jerusalem and Archb. Cyril of Cyprus, Patr.Photios of Alexandria and his Holy Synod condemn the introduction of the New Calendar

1925 On September 14 (os) the Holy Cross appeared over Athen. The Police who were sent by Archb. Chrysostom of Athens to break up the Service and arrest the Priest, are converted after witnessing the Appearance

1926 Meletios Metaxakis becomes Patr. of Alexandria, the Patriarchate of Alexandria adopts the New Calendar

I think we can see here that the New Calender is under anathema-no doubt. Beside this we have many other Canons and the writings of many Elders and Saints who also were against the change.

Please notice that some churches also accepted the New Paschalion but returned to the orthodox ( like the Church of Romania) or not like the Orthodox Church of Finnland wich is celebrating Pascha according to the Papal Paschalion!!!!!!!

IN CHRIST

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« Reply #445 on: November 24, 2007, 01:46:18 AM »

I actually mulled over this very issue while reading quite a few articles on it, including the one you linked, during the most recent Paschaltide.  One conclusion I drew is that the Fathers of Nicea intended to separate the Church Paschalion completely from the Jewish Paschalion to make the former completely independent from the latter.  At the time of the Great Council, I don't believe it was even astronomically possible for Christians to celebrate Pascha before the Jews without also celebrating the Feast before the spring equinox, hence the interpretation of "not with the Jews" to also mean "not before the Jews".

Since then (almost 1700 years later), the time difference between the astronomical spring equinox and the date of the Jewish Passover has expanded in some years to the point that the Jews celebrate after the second full moon of spring, which, according to our current understanding, requires us to celebrate Pascha after this same second full moon.  I remember reading some of our conservatives actually acknowledging, as though it were desirable, that this slow creep would eventually push Pascha into the winter. 

I believe this is correct.  OCA Archbishop Peter of New Jersey (who has just reposed) did major research on this issue.  I believe that one may find some of his research on this matter online. 

The old calendar calculation of the spring equinox was basically an educated guess about when the equinox actually happens.  And it was totally off the mark, essentially a "pretend" equinox!

There was confusion in the early Church about when to calculate the time of Pascha.  If memory serves me correctly, one reason was that it was not known that the Jews had changed the way that they reckoned the time of Passover, and this reckoning became important, though it was not based on the ancient means of calculating the date.

Archbishop Peter's research shows that the Latin method for calculating Pascha is correct.  I have yet to see any work that convincingly argues against this premise.  This gives me no pleasure at all.  For years, I believed that the Orthodox method of calulating Pascha was the correct way.  I'm sure it will take a long time for the Church to adopt these changes, but it would probably be a good idea to make the change before we start celebrating Pascha in August.  Wink
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« Reply #446 on: November 24, 2007, 01:55:01 AM »

4. The shortening of the Apostles Fast due to having two calendars simultaneously (and yes, I do think having the Announciation occasionally coinciding with Holy Week is preferable to occasionally losing an entire fast).

Maybe you'd like to experience enjoying the feast of the Annunciation on Great and Holy Friday before you make your final decision on this.   Wink
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« Reply #447 on: November 24, 2007, 04:14:00 AM »

1903 Holy Synod of the Church of Russia condemned it
1917 The First All-Russian Council (that elected St. Tikhon Patriarch) places calendar reform on their agenda


Are you sure that the substance of the calendar reform was the ONLY reason such reform was rejected?  What other factors might have played a major role, such as refusal to submit to an idea merely because it was encouraged by the Latin church?  If calendar reform is proposed organically within the Church and not foisted upon us from outside, might we find the product of such reform (i.e., the New Calendar) acceptable?

This is why I wonder just how much these anathemas against the Papal Calendar really speak to the issue of the calendar reforms of the last century.  Are we really dealing with the same calendar?  With the same reform dynamics?
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« Reply #448 on: November 24, 2007, 04:21:23 AM »

I believe this is correct.  OCA Archbishop Peter of New Jersey (who has just reposed) did major research on this issue.  I believe that one may find some of his research on this matter online.
In fact, this scholarly research of Archbishop Peter (of blessed memory) had a major impact on my thinking and is reflected in the information I just presented.
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« Reply #449 on: November 24, 2007, 06:57:50 PM »

God bless !

I do not know Archbishop Peter of New Jersy and his research but there are many excellent books and studies on this Topic - and I think that all agree that the Julian is the correct one.

 Archimandrite Naum, Elder of the St.Trinity-St.Sergius monastery :

The question of Paschalia is both dogmatical and canonical, and when the Orthodox celebrate Easter at the time, which reveals the symbol of the first and the eighth unsetting day, and remember the suffering and death, descent into Hell and the Resurrection, namely: after equinox, after full moon, on the day of Sunday, - then the Lord grants the appearance of the Blessed Fire at the Holy Sepulchre. He who keeps, along with other commandments, the commandment and tradition about Easter, does truly and observe in his life the Divine Truth, the goodness and sanctity of the Lord. He who does not keep the commandment about Paschalia, does not, as we often see, observe either all or some of God's commandments. And let their conscience be their judge.

The Holy Tradition prescribes:

1. That Easter be after vernal equinox; 2. After the following full moon; 3. On the first following Sunday; 4. That this Feast does not coincide with the Jewish Passover, which serves as a time reference, but that it be after the Jewish Passover.

The seven-day week begins with the creation of the world. The first day, being the image of the eternal, merges with Sunday. The Sun circle contains 28 years (7x4) - after 28 years the days of the week are repeated, which is important for the Paschalia. The Moon circle contains a 19-year Metonic cycle, but after every 19 years, the full moon, though occurring on the same day, takes place almost one and a half hours earlier than previously, so that after every 312 years, the full moon takes place one whole day earlier than previously. This shift of full moons was known to the pastors of the Eastern Church.

St. John Chrysostom indicates that "Equinox is the beginning of initial time at creation, when day and night were equal. Full Moon, however, was created after equinox, on the fourth day; on the sixth day God created man. Time of creation is chosen as time of renewal, namely: equinox, full Moon on the 14th day and on the day of the creation of man. At the same time, the Lord suffered, crying: "Father, the hour is come." The seven days of suffering coincided exactly with the first seven days of creation - this is the paramount time. It has been commanded: "This do in remembrance of Me" - to annually observe Easter following equinox, finding the 14th day of the Moon, after it (the day of the Old Testament Passover), and from here we calculate the Friday, the Saturday and the Lord's Day (Christian Easter).
If the 14th day of the Moon should occur before equinox, we leave it out and look for another, which should be after equinox; then the other month is counted. If the 14th day of the Moon meets with the Lord's Day, we take the next Lord's Day, in memory thereof that the 14th day is the day of passions, coinciding with the Friday on Calvary."
The Jewish Passover retains only full moons, while the Christian Easter - also the Resurrection, - wrote and said Pope Victor. In 1582, however, Pope Gregory XIII introduced his own calendar, influenced by the age of the Renaissance. Copernicus was against the reform and the 1583 Council rejected the new calendar.

The Gregorian calendar is historically pernicious and proves to be astronomically unnecessary. From 1900 to 2100 the difference between the two calendars is 13 days. Under the Gregorian calendar, it is difficult to retrieve historic events, astronomic phenomena, it is difficult to alternate lunar and solar equations. One cannot apply the rule concerning celebration of Easter to the Gregorian style. The Orthodox Church cannot accept the Gregorian style. The church celebrates Easter not according to dictates of the Gregorian or Julian calendars, but in accordance with the lunar biblical calendar.

The great indiction, that is the great paschal circle encompassing 532 years, provides for the unity of time in cosmic, historical, liturgical fields as a synthesis of knowledge of calendars; accounts for equinox and full moons, and serves as eternal calendar. The indiction affirms the inviolacy of the week. The Holy Orthodox Church is the sole guardian of the authentic Apostolic tradition.

The Holy Ghost, through the God-inspired Apostles and the Holy fathers, taught the rule of righteousness for all men. Thus, the 7th Apostolic rule reads: "If some person, be he bishop or presbyter, or deacon, should celebrate the feast of Easter before the vernal equinox, together with the Jews let him be cast away from the holy order."

The rule of the Holy Antioch Council stipulates that those daring to violate the decisions of the Holy and Great Council held in Nicaea, "about the feast of the Salvatory Easter, let them be excommunicated and cast away from the Church. If any of the hierarchs of the Church, be it bishop or presbyter, or deacon, dare to corrupt the people and to rebel against the Churches by conducting Easter with the Jews, such persons does the Holy Church condemn to be estranged from the Church, forbid conducting services to him and to those who have come in communion with him."

And Christ the Saviour appeals to every one of us, as He did to Simon John: "Doest thou love Me?" We call: "Our Father" and must remember, that our eternal Fatherland is in Heaven - where the Father is, there the children should be, too. And observance of God's commandments is a manifestation of love - and to those who have faith, the Lord grants the knowledge of the Resurrection. Easter for the Christians is Christ's Resurrection from the dead.
Easter is a feast of spring and reminds us of the seven days of Creation and the seven days of the Saviour's passions. This is the eighth day - as a symbol of the eternal unsetting day - merging with the first day of Creation - it is the Lord's day, it follows Saturday and is called the Week. Following the Week - the Sunday - after the Week - comes Monday, and so continues the week - from the week of Creation. And it was after vernal equinox, full moon and the three-day Resurrection. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

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