Old vs. New Calendar?

[jmbejdl]

Hi,

On the topic of Greeks drinking coffee, did anyone see this?

http://www.theoniondome.com/2005/02/04/guest/

Apart from being funny, it's actually very true - at least with respect to my experience of Greek churches in Britain. The last quote could almost have come out of one of the sermons, I'm sad to say!

James

[prodromos]

+¥+¦+¦-ä+¼-ü+¦+¦ ol' boy. Prepare to feast on the delights of octupus and retsina on your arrival

[Αριστοκλής]

+¥+¦+¦-ä+¼-ü+¦+¦ ol' boy. Prepare to feast on the delights of octupus and retsina on your arrival

Why do both of those taste better in Greece?

[Νεκτάριος]

I should clalify, maybe it is just greek festival food that is the issue with me.  During my numerous visits to Saint Anthony's I have never had a meal there that wasn't absolutely wonderful - but then again I love anything that comes from the ocean with olive oil poured over it (which is pretty much standard fare there lol).  Actually come to think of it there is nothing that I really don't eat....

[aurelia]

Oh I could not stop laughing!!!! 

 parish of All the Greek Saints of Greece Very Greek Very Orthodox Greek Orthodox Church,

and now i am really craving some baklava and a shot of ouzo..but I dont drink so I cant imagine why! LOL

[Νεκτάριος]

That is another thing... wine and beer is great but ouzo?  c'mon!

[aurelia]

Well, i like licorice...and I learned at a very early age that nobody else does and that meant i didnt have to share my Good n' Plenty 

[Arystarcus]

parish of All the Greek Saints of Greece Very Greek Very Orthodox Greek Orthodox Church

I've not yet read the article, but the name of that "church" was enough to make me laugh!  I think I may have been to some of their sister parishes. 

That is another thing... wine and beer is great but ouzo?  c'mon!

I'm with you Nektarios, I tried ouzo once and that one time was one time too many!    The same goes for Sambuca!

Well, i like licorice...and I learned at a very early age that nobody else does and that meant i didnt have to share my Good n' Plenty 

I don't care for black licorice, but for some reason I liked Good 'n Plenty....

[prodromos]

Ouzo is just pretend tsipouro

[TonyS]

Bump

Nektarios,

Since the basis for the calculation of Pascha is the equinox, a fixed date, how would it be any different from the Gregorian menaion?

T

[Anastasios]

Bump

The equinox is figured differently I believe. The eqinox on the Gregorian Calendar falls 13 days before the equinox on the Julian Calendar. There may only be one "real" equinox but the Julian Calendar does not reflect this.

Anastasios

[TonyS]

The equinox is figured differently I believe. The eqinox on the Gregorian Calendar falls 13 days before the equinox on the Julian Calendar. There may only be one "real" equinox but the Julian Calendar does not reflect this.

Anastasios

Anastasios,

That is clear to me.  But my question was in response to the claim (alleged by some) that the menaion can be changed but the paschalion not.  I guess what I don't understand about that logic is why the menaion March 21 can be pegged to the civil calculation but the equinox can't.  I guess one would have to know why the original proponents of the calendar changed only changed the fixed feasts withing their realm.

Over a week ago Nektarios said "After I get home from work today I will go post my refrences on the matter."  I am very interested in this matter and am anxious to see the references. 

T

[Νεκτάριος]

Sorry...I had some things happen and forgot to get back to it.  Note I did not say that it was a theory I subscribed to, just that more than one SCOBA priest had told me that was their justification for being on the new calendar.   

I think that this is the canon that they cite that only speaks of changing the paschalion and does not mentioned the menaion. 

8th Apostolic Canon :
If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon shall celebrate the holiday of the passover [pascha] before the vernal equinox with the Jews, let him be deprived.

[Orthodoxy]

Hi Everyone,

I was talking with my spiritual father today about the calendar issue. To paraphrase him he stated it is mostly a political football where as the Church in Moscow and the Serbian Church won’t use the new calendar because a pope had it developed and accepted. Julius Caesar who was not an orthodox Christian created the Julian calendar that the Orthodox use yet some orthodox refuse to use a calendar created by the bishop of Rome. Seems to me strange and merely proves calendars are a neutral creation of man to keep track of important events. The Chinese have a calendar that they don’t even use but commemoration on this calendar denotes specific “feast days” of their religion. From what I understand the Gregorian calendar works where as the old calendar doesn’t work over time. Feast days begin to over lap. We have no problem using other techno advances yet we demand the use of an out dated flawed calendar. It seems we are schismatic just to remain the tower of babel. For some reason we must pick these petty squabbles to keep us humble lest we get to powerful in our “oneness”.

In the book The Life of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos it states in the Augustus Taxes all the Roman Empire:

Luke 2:1-5; And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

The Expression of Luke 2:5, “to register with himself Mary who was betrothed to him as wife” must be read in connection with Matthew’s expression that Joseph “took to him his wife” Matthew 1:24 , since jewish custom would not have other wise allowed Mary to travel with Joseph to Bethlehem.

There are reliable historical records that indicate that a cencus was thaken every fourteen years, and that one was taken about the time of 6-7 BC. ( Tenny and Barabas; Pictorial Encycolpidia of the Bible, vol 1, p 772). This census, to be taken throughout the Roman Empire, included Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Cyrenius, the governor, was the well known Roman Senator Publius Sulpicius Quirinius.

Before the era of Christ, years were generally reckoned from the foundation of the city of Rome or from the election of the Emperor (Anno Urbis Conditae, A.U.C. or Roman Era). With the establishment of Christianity, recording of time was reckoned from the birth of Christ (anno Domini, AD.) However, an error in the calculation of Dionysios the Younger who, in 526 A.D. introduced the present method of dating, made the birth of Christ coincide with the Roman year 754. However after further studies since have ascertained that Christ was actually born in 747 or 748 according to the Roman Era, that is six or seven years earlier than Dionysios has supposed. From this, results in the curious fact that the Christian calendar which we now use instead of dating from the actual Nativity of our Savior, actually commenced some six or seven years later. Hence, the birth of Jesus is reckoned to be 6 or 7 BC, concurrent with the time of the Roman Taxation. Furthermore, according to all historical accounts, Herod the Great, the slayer of the Children of Bethlehem, died in 4 BC. Christ could not have been born after 4 BC since they fleed Herod and His murderous horde.

I truly found this interesting considering if it is true then no bodies calendar is correct!

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

[GC_Samaras]

Greetings!  I have recently been encountering a dilemma of some sort regarding my faith (no, I do not plan to switch to another faith/denomination entirely as some of you may be thinking right about now). As long as I can remember, I have been a member of the Greek Orthodox Church. The problem is, it is not the Greek Orthodox Church everyone is familiar with. A portion of my family including my immediate family worships God in the Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church. We have been "Old Calendarists" for approximately 15 years (as long as I can remember). I was baptized in the New Calendar church along with the rest of my family but we converted when my grandmother began associating herself with her new Greek neighbours who happened to be "Old Calendarists". Coincidentally, they had the ability to spread their beliefs quite well (my grandmother isn't exactly a bright person either, if that helps).

Recently, my Church attendance has been extremely low due to various extraneous variables (you can thank Grade 12 mathematics for those words) such as school, work, social responsibilities, etc. The other reason as to why we (my immediate family) have not been going to church is because we feel that the Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church is not for us. Our Church pressures us quite a bit into constantly fasting, constantly confessing, following the faith word-for-word, etc. We simply cannot follow our faith to that extent in the sense that we have school, work, and personal lives. My parents are now contemplating on leaving the Old Calendar Church and switching back to the New Calendar due to the slight leniency the New Calendar Church gives. We have been talking about this for a while but my parents want to make a decision by Christmas-time (New Calendar Christmas). I haven't exactly been the most helpful either since I don't really want to switch over to the New Calendar Church mainly because I was raised in the Old Calendar Church and it is all I have known. There are some other factors such as the fact that the Old Calendar Church technically follows the correct dates, but I don't think that "dates" really matter in the eyes of God.

Anyways, I was just wondering if some could offer me some advice for my dilemma that may allow myself and my faimily make a clearer judgment. Thank you for taking the time to read this and God bless.

[Anastasios]

Dear in Christ,

I am a member of the Old Calendar Greek Church. I was baptized there, having selected it over the New Calendar Greek Church when I decided to become Orthodox.  The issues you are raising are pastoral questions, not questions of faith; to decide whether to be in the Old Calendar Church or the New Calendar Church you must decide: which holds the correct faith, not which one is harder to be in.

If you are having trouble keeping the fasts, you can ask the priest for a blessing to fast less; after all, fasting is a means not an end.  However, don't fall into the trap of thinking that because we live in modern society it's harder for us to fast: trust me, your ancestors had it harder and they fasted.  The key is to constantly challenge yourself to do more, while recognizing your PRESENT limitations.  Going to the New Calendar Church is not going to allow you to do things not "word-for-word" anyway; I disagree with the New Calendar Church but they are more serious than you appear to think.

Another issue is that the Old Calendar Church does not exist just because of "the Calendar."  There is much more to it actually.  questions such as relations with the non-Orthodox Churches and modernism in the daily life of the faithful are serious issues in our time.  My appeal to you is to take several MONTHS to figure this out--if you make a move by Christmas you are doing yourself and your family a disservice by not having all the facts.  I am sure many here will try to convince you to come over to the New Calendar Church and this is their right on a pan-Orthodox open bulletin board, but I will lobby strongly that you stay put in the Old Calendar Church.  You should be able to guage what everyone is saying and make an informed choice.

Assuring you of my prayers,

Anastasios

[lubeltri]

That is a frequent misconception, isn't it, Anastasios? It would seem silly to break communion just over a calendar. Perhaps your church (GOC, right?) and the other groups could come up with a better name.

The traditional Anglicans, for example, call themselves Continuing Anglican churches. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuing_Anglican

[Anastasios]

That is a frequent misconception, isn't it, Anastasios? It would seem silly to break communion just over a calendar. Perhaps your church (GOC, right?) and the other groups could come up with a better name.

We did not take the name Greek Old Calendarist.  In Greek it is an attempted insult.  We adopted the insult as a name because we are proud to uphold the traditional calendar and because it's convenient. The name we use officially though is the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians.  That usually angers New Calendar people though so I don't usually use it here.  But I mean, we do think we're the ones upholding the genuine expression of Orthodoxy, just like New Calendarists think that we are not. Another reason for the name is that we had to incorporate separately from the State Church, and we were illegal for many decades, being persecuted and the like, so after that somewhat ended in 1986, we had to have a legal name for our Church.

Anastasios

[SmoT]

Old Calendar vs. New Calendar. Don't concern yourself with it. It's nonsense.

[Anastasios]

Old Calendar vs. New Calendar. Don't concern yourself with it. It's nonsense.

You're not even a Christian so you have no say in this. I'm sorry, but you are here on a technicality so you might want to be a more polite guest.

[SmoT]

You're not even a Christian so you have no say in this. I'm sorry, but you are here on a technicality so you might want to be a more polite guest.

Bravo! Spoken like a true Old Calendarist  You are right, so therefore, everyone else is wrong.

[Anastasios]

Bravo! Spoken like a true Old Calendarist  You are right, so therefore, everyone else is wrong.

It has nothing to do with being an Old Calendarist.  You abuse our forum and then complain when people get mad at you. We are here for serious discussion, and you are here to play around.  It's very frustrating.

[SmoT]

It has nothing to do with being an Old Calendarist.  You abuse our forum and then complain when people get mad at you. We are here for serious discussion, and you are here to play around.  It's very frustrating.

You are wrong. I am not playing around. The Calendar, like so many other of these man-created issues, is just used to divide the faithful and to instill pride in praxis. You really think God CARES whether or not we adhere to a concept of time that was man-created? Did I miss the part where God handed down "The Official God Calendar" like He did with the Ten Commandments? All these rules that have divided the Church for centuries were made by men - they are not important.

[Anastasios]

You are wrong. I am not playing around. The Calendar, like so many other of these man-created issues, is just used to divide the faithful and to instill pride in praxis. You really think God CARES whether or not we adhere to a concept of time that was man-created? Did I miss the part where God handed down "The Official God Calendar" like He did with the Ten Commandments? All these rules that have divided the Church for centuries were made by men - they are not important.

Well, as I clearly pointed out above, the calendar is not the only or even main issue. although I do think God cares about it on some level since timekeeping is something God Himself created and blessed, and the Church approved the Julian Calendar and rejected the Gregorian Calendar on several occasions. It's a bit difficult to debate you on traditions of men since you would say a great many things are traditions of men, which is why I originally protested your entering this discussion, since this is an inter-Orthodox discussion and your concerns are much more broad and foundational.  To me it is just going to sidetrack a discussion away from the point.

Anastasios

[AMM]

One possible alternative you have would be to look at another church.  The Ukrainian Church in Canada in the U.S., and mine (Carpatho-Russian) are all under the Ecumenical Patriarch and all follow the Julian Calendar.  I can understand if you wanted to stay in a church that is Greek because of your background, but I thought I would throw that out there.

I personally do not view the calendar as a cardinal element of the faith, but by the same token my strong preference is for the traditional Orthodox calendar.

[scamandrius]

Old Calendar vs. New Calendar. Don't concern yourself with it. It's nonsense.

Though this is a divisive issue among the Orthodox, and though I admit that I am sympathetic to the Old Calendraists (I'm Antiochian Orthodox; a new calendar jurisdiction), this is not a nonsense issue.  As Orthodox, it is the unity of the faith which binds us together in communion not some false general agreements or merely being nice to one another.  Since it is the fullness of the faith which dictates our praxis (exempting local customs which are not borne out of the apostolic faith handed down once and for all), any alteration of that praxis requires guidance by the Holy Spirit in an Ecumenical Council.  This is a very serious issue which requires charity between the Orthodox jurisdictions, not something to be readily dismissed and decried as nonsense as if God doesn't care for calendars.  That's precisely the logic that guides liberal and secular philosophies in this world which is totally foreign to the Orthodox ethos.

Scmandrius

[SmoT]

As Orthodox, it is the unity of the faith which binds us together in communion not some false general agreements or merely being nice to one another.

I don't disagree with this.

However, since about 90% (really not sure of the real percentage) of the world's (that's a loaded word in itself) Orthodox Patriarchs, Bishops and the Faithful have chosen to follow a specific Calendar, then who is choosing to be separated? It's the Old Calendarists who have chosen to make a man created constraint, something that 90% of all other Orthodox Patriarchs and Bishops have decided, or accepted after reflection, is NOT critical to the Faith, be absolutely critical to the faith.

[ozgeorge]

I don't disagree with this.

However, since about 90% (really not sure of the real percentage) of the world's (that's a loaded word in itself) Orthodox Patriarchs, Bishops and the Faithful have chosen to follow a specific Calendar, then who is choosing to be separated? It's the Old Calendarists who have chosen to make a man created constraint, something that 90% of all other Orthodox Patriarchs and Bishops have decided, or accepted after reflection, is NOT critical to the Faith, be absolutely critical to the faith.

Err....I'd check your stats....
The vast majority of Orthodox Christians follow the Old Calendar. It is the followers of the New Calendar (myself included) who are in the minority.
More "TomS Facts" eh?

[SmoT]

Err....I'd check your stats....
The vast majority of Orthodox Christians follow the Old Calendar. It is the followers of the New Calendar (myself included) who are in the minority.
More "TomS Facts" eh?

TomS, that idiot? No thank you! I am glad he was finally banned.

Well, if your facts are correct then I say "Anathema to the New Calendarists who have corrupted the Orthodox faith!"  And, as TomS would say "Why would you listen to some stranger posting on an internet message board anyway. Jeez!"

Google-ing for a real Orthodox Church in my neck of the woods now!

[ozgeorge]

TomS, that idiot? No thank you! I am glad he was finally banned.

I will not have you disparage my friend that way. Shame on you! If you only knew what a decent fellow he is! A little crazy, but a decent fellow.

Well, if your facts are correct then I say "Anathema to the New Calendarists who have corrupted the Orthodox faith!" 

Noted. I'll add you to the list of others who have anathamized me online.

And, as TomS would say "Why would you listen to some stranger posting on an internet message board anyway. Jeez!"

Yeah, you're right. Only a real loser would post on an internet message board.

Google-ing for a real Orthodox Church in my neck of the woods now!

Ah, Google- the internet crackpot's best friend! Where would forums be without it? People would actually have to think things though themselves!

[Thanatos]

Bravo! Spoken like a true Old Calendarist  You are right, so therefore, everyone else is wrong.

LOL. Cute.

You are wrong. I am not playing around. The Calendar, like so many other of these man-created issues, is just used to divide the faithful and to instill pride in praxis. You really think God CARES whether or not we adhere to a concept of time that was man-created?

Because suddenly in the early 20th century, a group of old, sinister clerics got-together to realize their fetish for Julian calendarism - to react against the "well-established" Gregorian calendar, engrained within the Church's menaion, cycle and liturgical celebration. 

Obviously, you are a new-comer to the debate termed the "Calendar Controversy." The Calendar issue is just scratching the surface, over the notion of accepting modernization in Church praxis and order, as well as ecumenistic affairs with heterodox.

If a correct Orthodox phronema resides within your heart, then you will treat the issue at hand with less triviality than you are now.

Peace,
Ioannis

[Pravoslavbob]

You don't know "SmoT", do you, Thanatos?  Trust me, you don't want to start.   

[Pravoslavbob]

Obviously, you are a new-comer to the debate termed the "Calendar Controversy." The Calendar issue is just scratching the surface, over the notion of accepting modernization in Church praxis and order, as well as ecumenistic affairs with heterodox.

As much as I don't like saying this, I think the whole calendar issue is just a big red herring. 

[Pravoslavbob]

I will not have you disparage my friend that way. Shame on you! If you only knew what a decent fellow he is! A little crazy, but a decent fellow.
Noted. I'll add you to the list of others who have anathamized me online.
Yeah, you're right. Only a real loser would post on an internet message board.
 Ah, Google- the internet crackpot's best friend! Where would forums be without it? People would actually have to think things though themselves!

Ozgeorge:  You crack me up.  Seriously.   

[SmoT]

Err....I'd check your stats....
The vast majority of Orthodox Christians follow the Old Calendar. It is the followers of the New Calendar (myself included) who are in the minority.
More "TomS Facts" eh?

Wow. Did some research. You are right. Really blew that argument.

Soo....... Nevermind! 

[ozgeorge]

  LOL
SmoT,
A good skill to learn is to do our research before we open our fool mouth. Nevermind, it will come with maturity.

[SmoT]

LOL
SmoT,
A good skill to learn is to do our research before we open our fool mouth. Nevermind, it will come with maturity.

But then that would kill the whole "Living on the edge" dynamic! Maybe I should model other posters and insist that I am right no matter what.

[Anastasios]

But then that would kill the whole "Living on the edge" dynamic! Maybe I should model other posters and insist that I am right no matter what.

No, you are wrong all the time! get it straight whydontcha!! 

[SmoT]

Oh my!  I believe I am being insulted! Wait! No, I am wrong. I will not really be insulted for another 13 days yet

[Anastasios]

Oh my!  I believe I am being insulted! Wait! No, I am wrong. I will not really be insulted for another 13 days 

That's right. Anything I say to you has to wait 13 days to hit you LOL

[SmoT]

That's right. Anything I say to you has to wait 13 days to hit you LOL

Now you see. Who else on this board is as witty as me?! 

I lay an egg, I make an omelet!
I get a lemon, I make lemonade!
The show must go on.

[GiC]

Wow. Did some research. You are right. Really blew that argument.

Soo....... Nevermind! 

What the hell do you think you're doing? Never admit to being wrong, rather dismiss the opinion of the Russian Church and emphasize the absolute and infallible authority of the Throne of Constantinople. There's is the only opinion that matters and by trying to bring in contradicting opinions those who are arguing against you are simply advocating schism and trying to tear asunder the body of Christ.

There are always better solutions to a problem than claiming you made a mistake

But seriously the overwhelming majority of Orthodox Bishops will say that the calendar does not matter, thus making it perfectly reasonable, without using rhetorical tricks, to claim that those who do make an issue out of it simply do so to create problems and divisions out of trivialities.

[Orthodox11]

But seriously the overwhelming majority of Orthodox Bishops will say that the calendar does not matter, thus making it perfectly reasonable, without using rhetorical tricks, to claim that those who do make an issue out of it simply do so to create problems and divisions out of trivialities.

I do not believe the calendar is a cause for schism, and I think those few who claim New Calendar churches are without grace (such as the Matthewites) have blown the issue out of all proportion.

However, I am not a fan of the New Calendar. The main issue for me is the loss of 13 days of the Apostles Fast. The Apostolic Constitutions state very clearly that the date of Pascha should be calculated in accordance with those of the circumcision (i.e. the Jews). Therefore, to move the date of Pascha would go against the Church canons.

For this reason, those churches who adopted the New Calendar kept using the Old Calendar for movable feasts/fasts. The problem this causes is that the beginning of the Apostles Fast remains the same, but the end of the fast is brought forward by 13 days. As a consequence, New Calendarists might fast for 2 days whereas the majority of Orthodox, still on the Old Calendar, fast for 15 days.

Surely this is a valid concern?

[GiC]

I do not believe the calendar is a cause for schism, and I think those few who claim New Calendar churches are without grace (such as the Matthewites) have blown the issue out of all proportion.

However, I am not a fan of the New Calendar. The main issue for me is the loss of 13 days of the Apostles Fast. The Apostolic Constitutions state very clearly that the date of Pascha should be calculated in accordance with those of the circumcision (i.e. the Jews). Therefore, to move the date of Pascha would go against the Church canons.

Ummm...actually the Synod of Nicea clearly states it's primary purpose in setting a date for Pascha is to NOT Celebrate it the same time as the Jewish Passover. The only years where the Gregorian celebration of Pascha is actually a real problem according to the reasoning of the Synod of Nicea is when it corresponds with the passover; and even then, it is dubious whether this would be a problem as the concern of the synod was that our Pascha should not be based on the Jewish Passover, a rare coincidental correlation between the two is not the same issue as that with which the synod expressed concern.

For this reason, those churches who adopted the New Calendar kept using the Old Calendar for movable feasts/fasts. The problem this causes is that the beginning of the Apostles Fast remains the same, but the end of the fast is brought forward by 13 days. As a consequence, New Calendarists might fast for 2 days whereas the majority of Orthodox, still on the Old Calendar, fast for 15 days.

Surely this is a valid concern?

Maybe for the fifteen non-monastics in the world who actually follow that fast. (And I'm sure all fifteen post on OC.net and are going to now inform me of their piety )

[ozgeorge]

The only years where the Gregorian celebration of Pascha is actually a real problem according to the reasoning of the Synod of Nicea is when it corresponds with the passover;

Actually, the Gregorian Pascha never coincides the Nomical Passover.
The Nomical Passover occurs on the night of the first Full Moon after the Vernal Equinox. Being a Lunisolar Calendar, the first New Moon after the Vernal Equinox on the Nomical Jewish Calendar is 1st Nissan, and the first Full Moon after this occurs 14 days later on the night of 14th Nissan, Which is the Nomical Day of Passover. By definition, the Gregorian Easter is the Sunday after the first Vernal Full Moon (i.e., the Sunday after the Nomical 14th of Nissan), so, if the first Vernal Full Moon (the Nomical Passover) falls on a Sunday, then Easter is the following Sunday.
The Canon to celebrate Pascha "not with the Jews" simnply means that Pascha should always be celebrated on a Sunday, and not on whatever day of the week 14th Nissan falls as the Tessareskaedecatites were doing.

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