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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 191340 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #315 on: January 30, 2005, 09:15:40 PM »

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Tell me which new calendar jurisdiction, infected by such ecumenicism, is seeking to dump the Chalcedonian council. Quotes and documents, please.

Refer to the recent statements of the Orthodox Patriach of Antioch and the Non Chalcedonian Patriach.  They are slowly slipping into a de facto communion.  If you are not aware of this it has been discussed ad nauseum here and at the ecafe. 

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The Revised Julian Calendar adopted by the New Calendar jurisidictions fully abides by the Paschal formula and continues using the same Menologion.

Already the Church of Finland has dumped the Orthodox dating of Pascha. 
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« Reply #316 on: January 30, 2005, 09:22:51 PM »

I was making mostly pastoral arguments, not theological ones. Or attempting to anyway. People said that the calendar issue wasn't that important, so I was trying to make as many arguments as I could on their own turf (ie. speaking of how it would effect people in the real world and not just speaking of theological issues in principle).I was thinking of stuff like "Love suffers all" and the idea that we should give up even good and acceptable things if it causes our brothers to fall. I didn't realise that I was suppose to be debating certain people; sorry, I don't do that anymore.
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« Reply #317 on: January 30, 2005, 11:57:44 PM »

1) Though the revised Julian Calendar has  not been explicitly condemned by a Pan-Orthodox Council, I think the 20 or more councils that weighed in on the general issue of the calendar between the 17th century and 1924 make it pretty clear that, for EO's, you just shouldn't tamper with the calendar. Thus, I don't think it's acceptable to treat it as though it is something a bishop came up with on his own, not knowing that other Orthodox would react in a strongly negative way.

I've read very little about these councils (didn't know there were 20 of them!), but what little I've read makes me wonder on what basis the Gregorian Calendar was rejected by these local Orthodox councils.  Forgive me, but what little I do know about these makes it seem like the only reason for rejecting it was simply because it came from the West.  If that is indeed the case (and I suspect you will disagree), then that's hardly a valid reason for rejecting something, no matter how many councils were summoned. 

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2) There was certainly no lack of communication or problems of that sort. So while I agree with what you said about the difficulty of communications in ancient times, I don't think it applies to the modern era.

My point was that the local Churches obviously do have the power to act in disciplinary matters on their own to an extent, and this is a fundamental power.  If they didn't have this power inherently, then communication or no communication, it would be hard for the Church to get things done.  As communication gets easier, it may be of greater benefit to communicate with the other Churches, but if this is not done, it is not a reason to reject anything, since the exercise of this power is legitimate.   

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4) The majority of the world's Orthodox remain Old Calendar, and even within New Calendar bodies opposition to the calendar innovation is easily demonstrable.

5) The calendar innovation goes against not just a few Pan-Orthodox Councils in the 17th century, but against the very spirit of Orthodoxy, in that it changes tradition willy nilly for no justifiable reason. Does it effect someone's salvation? I would say no. But then, others disagree, and I personally wouldn't want to take that chance. The 7th Ecumenical Council, with all the Fathers, speak against throwing off the traditions handed down to us; without a justifiable reason anyway. St. John Chrysostom said somewhere "It is tradition, seek no further." I don't think St. John was affirming a blind anti-intellectualism, but I do think the spirit of what he was saying was valid, and applicable in this particular case.

I think that one can legitimately criticise such decisions as the calendar change if they have a real basis for it (I can accept some of the standard arguments in favour of the old calendar); really the only thing I have a problem with is the idea that only an ecumenical council can mandate a calendar change.  I think this takes away legitimate power from the local Churches.  If you disagree, then I'd like to know where I can find support for the opposite. 

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6) It gives us liturgical chaos, where in the same city (and sometimes in the same parish) one Christian is fasting while another is celebrating a feast. Sometimes entire chunks of the liturgical calendar are cut out of the New Calendar (e.g., the Apostles Fast).

Other than the Apostles' Fast, what other "chunks" of the liturgical calendar are cut out on the new calendar? 

You have a point about "liturgical chaos", but exactly how far do you think we can take this?  Should we start insisting that every church celebrate every feast in exactly the same way?  For instance, if it is 6 October (my favourite example), and the Greeks want to celebrate St. Thomas the Apostle, and the Russians want to celebrate St. Innocent, should the Russians give way to the Greeks in the name of conformity?

Finally, I'd like to see this thread stay on topic, and not go astray with the insertion of Chalcedon where it has no place.  There's enough anti-ecumenism to go around.  Tongue 
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« Reply #318 on: February 01, 2005, 04:27:39 AM »

All,

Thanks for your many replies - they've given me a lot to think about! I'd just like to clarify, for those who seemed to think that I was worried that the calendar issue was one pertaining to salvation, that I do not. I am more bothered by the lack of liturgical unity (I realsie that this is not strictly necessary, but it would be better, I think, if we all celebrated the same feasts at the same time) and the schisms that have sprung up over this issue. I particularly dislike the odd situations we get following the New Calendar such as the Apostles' Fast lasting -x days. That is just ridiculous.

All the arguments about ecumenicism in New Calendar parishes don't really seem to hold up that well to me. True, Patriarch Teoctist is maybe rather more ecumenically minded than I'd like, but Romanian parishes like the one I was married in are usually extremely conservative (beards, no pews, no organs, and certainly no clerical collars) whereas I know Old Calendar parishes in the UK that are much more heterodox in their outward appearance. I don't think, therefore, that the New Calendar necessarily goes hand in hand with a modernising, ecumenical tendency.

I feel that I shall probably stay where I am, at least for the time being. I do not like the New Calendar, but I'd rather pray for a return to the Old for the whole Romanian church than wall myself off. Of course, if somebody can give me a compelling reason why this attitude is wrong then I'd be willing to reassess my position. Thanks again for all your help, I'll follow St. Gregory the Theologian's advice as posted by Paradosis on this one, I think.

In Christ,

James
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« Reply #319 on: February 01, 2005, 12:44:35 PM »

I feel that I shall probably stay where I am, at least for the time being. I do not like the New Calendar, but I'd rather pray for a return to the Old for the whole Romanian church than wall myself off.

Good call, imo.  I'm doing the same for the States.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #320 on: February 01, 2005, 01:37:23 PM »

A small correction, the Byzantine Churches do not use one Typicon.  The Slav Churches use the Sabaite the Greek Churches use the Studite, and before these two dominated the Great Church had its own Typicon.  Add to this different recensions of these Typicons and there is diversity.  Why diversity here is tolerated but the Gregorian/Revised Julian Calendar is considereed a deal breaker by some I will never understand.  As Phil points out, among the Oriental Orthodox it just isn't a big deal.  When they are in a country that uses the Gregorian Calendar some choose to adopt it and the other Churches don't excommunicate them.
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« Reply #321 on: February 02, 2005, 12:09:59 AM »

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Why diversity here is tolerated but the Gregorian/Revised Julian Calendar is considereed a deal breaker by some I will never understand.  As Phil points out, among the Oriental Orthodox it just isn't a big deal.  When they are in a country that uses the Gregorian Calendar some choose to adopt it and the other Churches don't excommunicate them.

Father Deacon Lance,

Now that you mention it, that is an interesting point- one I'd never thought about until you brought it up.

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« Reply #322 on: February 02, 2005, 03:16:46 AM »

It is absurd to compare slight difference in the way liturgy is celebrated to not celebrating the same feasts at the same time.  For example tomorrow if I go over to my Greek friend's house for dinner do I eat fish because he is celebrating the presentation?  That is litteraly a case of him feasting and me fasting on the same day and we live less than a mile apart - does this make sense?
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« Reply #323 on: February 02, 2005, 12:44:13 PM »

For example tomorrow if I go over to my Greek friend's house for dinner do I eat fish because he is celebrating the presentation?

What do you do if your friend isn't Orthodox? Do you only pick friends who don't eat meat when you are fasting? Do you just avoid all company during your fasts? Try this... just eat the bread and vegetables. If he's your friend, it's really not a big deal.
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« Reply #324 on: February 02, 2005, 06:51:45 PM »

A small correction, the Byzantine Churches do not use one Typicon. The Slav Churches use the Sabaite the Greek Churches use the Studite, and before these two dominated the Great Church had its own Typicon.

The Greek Churches don't use the Studite Typikon.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8123.asp

Quote
The new Typikon of Constantinople was adopted gradually by: the churches under the immediate jurisdiction of the Patriarchate; all Greek-speaking churches; and to a varying degree by other churches. The older Typikon of St. Savas continues to be used by most monastic communities, as well as the Churches of Jerusalem and Russia and others.

If you read that article at that link you will find that the "new Typikon of Constantinople" is the Violakis typikon.
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« Reply #325 on: February 02, 2005, 07:03:46 PM »

Why diversity here is tolerated but the Gregorian/Revised Julian Calendar is considereed a deal breaker by some I will never understand. As Phil points out, among the Oriental Orthodox it just isn't a big deal. When they are in a country that uses the Gregorian Calendar some choose to adopt it and the other Churches don't excommunicate them.

Some EO have also adopted the Gregorian calendar with the western paschalion and to my knowledge none have been excommunicated.  The Orthodox Church of Finland comes to mind. 
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« Reply #326 on: February 03, 2005, 09:58:28 AM »

Tony,

Thank you for the correction, but is not the Violakis Typicon simply a simplification of the Studite to make it easier to use in parishes?

Excommunication was the wrong word.  Schism within Churches over the calendar issue was my point.  This does not occur among the Oriental Orthodox nor do they make a fuss over it like many EOs do.

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« Reply #327 on: February 03, 2005, 11:08:39 AM »

Tony,

Thank you for the correction, but is not the Violakis Typicon simply a simplification of the Studite to make it easier to use in parishes?

Excommunication was the wrong word. Schism within Churches over the calendar issue was my point. This does not occur among the Oriental Orthodox nor do they make a fuss over it like many EOs do.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The V. Typikon is a simplification of the Sabbaite Typikon. The Studite Typikon died out in the 14th century.  Really having worshipped in both Greek, Russian, and Carpatho-Rusyn parishes, I can say the two typika are not that different--a Vigil is prescribed instead of Vespers in the Sabbaite, but many OCA parishes just have Vespers and many Greek Churches (such as in Greece and a few Greek Old Calendarist parishes, and Holy Cross Seminary once a month) have all-night Vigils.  There are other minor differences but nothing as great as the difference between the Studite and the Sabbaite.

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« Reply #328 on: February 03, 2005, 11:25:31 AM »

Excommunication was the wrong word. Schism within Churches over the calendar issue was my point. This does not occur among the Oriental Orthodox nor do they make a fuss over it like many EOs do.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Deacon Lance,

Certainly the calendar is a hot topic among some EO, and rightly so.  However, the fact remains that there are EO jurisdictions that even use the Gregorian paschalion and they are not in schism with most Julian calendar churches, that is with World Orthodoxy.  It must be recalled that there are Julian calendar churches in schism from Julian calendar churches.

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« Reply #329 on: February 03, 2005, 01:22:10 PM »

Anastasios,

Thank for your explanantion.  I was trying to figure out where I got the idea the Studite was still in use and I remembered:

http://www.typicon.com/Definitions/Typicon_Page.htm

So much reading and so hard to keep it all striaght.Smiley

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« Reply #330 on: February 03, 2005, 01:40:56 PM »

Strelets you missed the entire point of my post. The point is that we both share the same faith and that it is strange for him to feast while I fast. That is the unatural situation the calendar change has created. Isn't it odd that the majority of Orthodox Christians are fasting while in Athens they chant "Christ is Born!" ? Or that in Finland they sing Christ is Risen while everyone else that is Orthodox is in the midst of the Great Fast?
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« Reply #331 on: February 03, 2005, 07:44:46 PM »

The leg fasts while the hand feasts.  Is this the Body of Christ?
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« Reply #332 on: February 03, 2005, 07:47:44 PM »

Isn't it odd that the majority of Orthodox Christians are fasting while in Athens they chant "Christ is Born!" ? Or that in Finland they sing Christ is Risen while everyone else that is Orthodox is in the midst of the Great Fast?

Since we're talking of practicalities, it's not odd at all. Halfway around the world, an Old Calendarist in Russia is saying, "Christ is Risen", while an Old Calendarist in the US is fasting. This has always been the case, and creating a new doctrine that says everything has to be perfectly timed at the same time becomes an exercise in legalistic frivolity. There's never been universal conformity in the timing of our fasts and feasts.
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« Reply #333 on: February 03, 2005, 08:19:51 PM »

Again you are being irrational.  A few hours difference because of a different time zone is not the same thing as the Finnish Orthodox Church celebrating Pascha WEEKS apart from the rest of the Church.  Actually if I am not mistaken forgiveness Sunday for them will be this Sunday.  And since the the canons of the church very clearly condem celebrating the pascha according the Gregorian dating and apparently that hasn't caused any controvesry.... does that mean that is the next step for new calendar jurisdictions?

 
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« Reply #334 on: February 03, 2005, 10:05:34 PM »

It's not irrational at all. If we're going to be anal retentive about the timing devices we use to determine when to proclaim, "Christ is Risen!", we'd might as well become as pure as possible and point out how far our brothers and sisters are from perfection according to the Law, yes? What do you suggest... that the Finns should all go to jail, since the state law mandates they use the Gregorian Pascha? What should we thusly do in response to such "intransigence" on the part of Finnish Orthodox... double the injury to our brothers and sisters by excommunicating them? It's all about proportion. It's so easy to demand of others, especially in Russia during Soviet times, to turn themselves into martyrs for the Faith while we're sipping an espresso in the comfort of the nearby cafe. The canons are not a straightjacket to be used as a weapon against faithful Orthodox Christians, but unfortunately they're being used and abused as a means unto themselves by a small minority.
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« Reply #335 on: February 04, 2005, 01:14:46 AM »

If I am not mistaken the issue in finland is one of tax exemption and tax law not imprisonment.  In that case what is more important, following the tradition of the church or money? 

As for Russia you are drawing a strawman argument.  The majority of traditionalists fall in the same mindset and look towards guides such as Father Seraphim Rose who rose to the defense of Fr. Dimitri Dudko, Elder Taverion and others in the MP as faithful Orthodox Christians.  And FWIW I don't drink espresso. 
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« Reply #336 on: February 04, 2005, 08:51:04 AM »

And since the the canons of the church very clearly condem celebrating the pascha according the Gregorian dating and apparently that hasn't caused any controvesry.... does that mean that is the next step for new calendar jurisdictions?

Nektarios,

It would be good if you state which "canons of the church very clearly condem celebrating the pascha according the Gregorian dating."

I am unaware of any.  It is said there were some late local councils which have condemned the Gregorian calendar but AFAIK they did not issue any canons and to the best of my knowledge no such canon exists in the collections of canons in the Orthodox Church.  Any information to the contrary will be useful and will be appreciated (at least by me.)

In early times (meaning a thousand years before the advent of the Gregorian calendar) the issue of the date of Pascha became important and it was deliberated in synod and canons were issued which remain part of the canonical body.  Two such proscriptions which come to mind are the Quartodecimans and "meta ton Iudaion" or, "with the Jews."  I can't see how either of these could be applied to the Gregorian calendar.

Perhaps some readers will find this article useful for some historical background:
http://www.jacwell.org/Archbishop%20Peter/The_Date_of_Pascha_and_the_Council_of_Nicea.htm

I honestly think there are good arguments on both sides of the calendar debate.  Unity is important IMO, and it seemed that played a role in the council's ruling. 

If anything can be gleaned from an appeal to the canons, ISTM that it is the notion of unity more than the science undergirding the system itself that was accepted at that time.  The adoption of all Gregorian (as in Finland and other isolated locations) does not cause collisions in the Typikon.  It does require eliminating the use of the ancient astronomical calculations (non-Christian anyway IIRC). 

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« Reply #337 on: February 04, 2005, 12:29:18 PM »

If I am not mistaken the issue in finland is one of tax exemption and tax law not imprisonment. In that case what is more important, following the tradition of the church or money?

Following the tradition of the Church is more important, which means obeying your bishop and the synod and remaining in communion with your brothers and sisters. I suppose the CofF could choose to pay the high Western European taxes as a corporate entity and therefore end up closing the doors in bankruptcy. Or they could refuse to pay the taxes and then go to jail.

The majority of traditionalists fall in the same mindset and look towards guides such as Father Seraphim Rose who rose to the defense of Fr. Dimitri Dudko, Elder Taverion and others in the MP as faithful Orthodox Christians.

Of course most traditionalists fall into that mindset. Most traditionalists, however that word is mysteriously defined, remain in communion with the MP. I'm curious about one thing.... which Fr. Dimitri is the real Fr. Dimitri - the one before imprisonment, or the one after the torture who recanted his previous statements? Did he become a traitor to the Church by recanting his previous anti-Soviet rhetoric? Are those Orthodox clergy who chose not to go out in a blaze of glory against the civil authorities thusly traitors to Christ? Not everyone is as strong as the other, and not all were put on this earth to become martyrs.

And FWIW I don't drink espresso.

'Tis outrage!
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« Reply #338 on: February 04, 2005, 01:31:30 PM »

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It would be good if you state which "canons of the church very clearly condem celebrating the pascha according the Gregorian dating."

Interesting as the standard apologia for the new calendar that I have heard from several priests (SCOBA) is that there is no prohibitation of the Gregorian menaion, but that the paschalion could not be changed.  After I get home from work today I will go post my refrences on the matter.

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Following the tradition of the Church is more important, which means obeying your bishop and the synod and remaining in communion with your brothers and sisters.

Right so Saint Maximos the confessor should have simply remained in communion with his patriarch, or Saint Mark of Ephesos should have gone along with his brothers and sisters.  But then the same could be said about the metropolia.  Why did the metropolia enter into schism and break off from the ROCOR?  On what canonical grounds does the metropolia base its schism?


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« Reply #339 on: February 04, 2005, 02:02:24 PM »

Right so Saint Maximos the confessor should have simply remained in communion with his patriarch, or Saint Mark of Ephesos should have gone along with his brothers and sisters.

What jurisdictions did they start? History shows their brothers and sisters maintained the Faith with them within their jurisdictions to fix the situation. I'm sorry, but if you consider changing the calendar to be the equivalent of a serious theological matter such as accepting the Filioque and Papal Authority, it doesn't wash. And the argument that it's the false ecumenicism behind the calendar doesn't work either, given that the Serbian and Jerusalem Patriarchates are members of the WCC.

Why did the metropolia enter into schism and break off from the ROCOR? On what canonical grounds does the metropolia base its schism?

Ok, got it. The reverse logic (once again at play) says that the EP is in schism with the Matthewites. <sarcasm>The OCA, despite being in communion with every normal Orthodox jurisdiction in the world, is really in schism because someone in ROCOR won't take communion in OCA parishes. The True O chose to "wall themselves off"... but wait. Now the story is that it's everyone else who built a wall around True O.</sarcasm> It's all so confusing with different versions of events. Whatever that may be, the confused reasoning doesn't stand in regards to ROCOR given that I've good friends in ROCOR who are freely allowed to commune in the OCA, and vice versa.
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« Reply #340 on: February 04, 2005, 02:51:31 PM »

Strelets,

I may be putting words in Nektarios' mouth, but I think this may be the point he is trying to make...a  point which I also tried to make earlier.
--- You're criticizing jurisdictions that "wall themselves off" or break communion with their hierarchy over what they consider to be important matters of the faith. You believe that they should just follow their bishops out of obedience- fair enough. The problem that arises is the fact that the OCA, a jurisdiction which you are a part of, broke communion with their rightful bishops over matters not even pertaining to the faith. How can all of the various "true" groups or ROCOR be condemned, yet the OCA doesn't seem to factor into this equation for you when in fact they disobediently broke off from their bishops as well. The position of the OCA is different, of course. They've "regularized" their situation(according to most) for the most part, even though their autocephaly is still not formally recongized by the EP, Serbia, and I believe another Synod. Did their means justify their ends? Was their breaking from the ROCOR hierarchy, out of some kind of principle which later allowed for them to take autocephaly, worth their break? I think some of the "traditional" synods see themselves in a similar positon. They wish to be independent from that which they disagree with as a matter of principle, in hopes that one day the situation will normalize. A lot like the Metropolia's position. Still, the OCA's history is somehow brushed under the rug as you criticize those who are currently "out of communion" with "normal" Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #341 on: February 04, 2005, 03:33:39 PM »

Thank you, Josh that is exactly the point I was making.  The metropolia broke communion from their bishops (and at this time ROCOR was in communion with the EP).  And now that the metropolia has been normalized as the OCA they seem very quick to condemn anyone who is in the same position they were once in. 
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« Reply #342 on: February 04, 2005, 03:51:43 PM »

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The problem that arises is the fact that the OCA, a jurisdiction which you are a part of, broke communion with their rightful bishops over matters not even pertaining to the faith.

Quote
The metropolia broke communion from their bishops (and at this time ROCOR was in communion with the EP).  And now that the metropolia has been normalized as the OCA they seem very quick to condemn anyone who is in the same position they were once in.

I have heard about this before, but I honestly do not know any of the history regarding how this happened. What were the circumstances and reasons that caused the split? Bogo had said above that it was not "over matters pertaining to the faith" - then what were they? Is there any information regarding the historical circumstances of the formation of the OCA and where can I find it online?

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #343 on: February 04, 2005, 04:12:09 PM »

Aaron here is a good start: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/bookrev_woerl.aspx
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« Reply #344 on: February 04, 2005, 06:04:24 PM »

Nektarios,

Thanks for the link, I will check it out.  Smiley  If anyone has any other links that pertain to this, please post a link!

In Christ,
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« Reply #345 on: February 04, 2005, 06:09:36 PM »

Arystarcus,
We had a lengthy discussion on this some months ago. This should be useful info:


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,3457.0.html
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« Reply #346 on: February 04, 2005, 06:16:33 PM »

Many thanks Bogoliubtsy. Grin
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« Reply #347 on: February 04, 2005, 06:50:42 PM »



Interesting as the standard apologia for the new calendar that I have heard from several priests (SCOBA) is that there is no prohibitation of the Gregorian menaion, but that the paschalion could not be changed. After I get home from work today I will go post my refrences on the matter.

Nektarios,

Since the basis for the calculation of Pascha is the equinox, a fixed date, how would it be any different from the Gregorian menaion?

T
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« Reply #348 on: February 04, 2005, 07:14:20 PM »

The anti-iconoclast bishops broke communion with the non-iconoclastic bishops and "walled themselves off", setting up a separate "jurisdiction." So did the bishops opposed to the Lyons and Florence unions. The issue of heresy and schism is complex, because sometimes the ones breaking off communion end up being justified (as in the cases of those opposed to iconoclasm, Lyons, and Florence) while at other times the ones breaking communion end up wrong (Novationism, Donatism, and Arensius in the 13th century come to mind).

I also note a tendency in some posters' posts towards indentifying themselves as the "normal" Orthodox Church or arguing by what is the "majority" view. I wonder when being normal or the majority ever mattered in Church history. I would just rather debate the issues instead of getting sidetracked by periperhal appeals to authority ("We are the official Church, you are not!") or using the numbers game, "We are the majority so you can't possibly be right!" I think too much is at stake; if the Old Calendarists are right, then a lot of people are being led astray; if the Old Calendarists are schismatics and wrong, then a lot of people are being led astray.  The issue calls for serious discussion and not attempts to win by debate points and bolster one's argument in this way.

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« Reply #349 on: February 05, 2005, 01:43:46 AM »

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or using the numbers game, "We are the majority so you can't possibly be right!"

If that was true, we'd all be Roman Catholic!  Shocked  :confused:

laugh just a joke...  Wink
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« Reply #350 on: February 05, 2005, 02:29:30 AM »

Quote

I've commented on articles from this site a few times before. This hostile link is no more helpful than some of the others in discerning the facts. Once one gets past the uncharitable, not to mention unOrthodox, invectives and name-calling towards the OCA, it does nothing to shed light or provide genuine information on the matter at hand. I'm betting that those who joyfully pump their fists in the air after reading articles such as this will be the first ones breaking off from ROCOR once it officially reunites with the MP, and thusly the OCA.

The problem that arises is the fact that the OCA, a jurisdiction which you are a part of, broke communion with their rightful bishops over matters not even pertaining to the faith. How can all of the various "true" groups or ROCOR be condemned, yet the OCA doesn't seem to factor into this equation for you when in fact they disobediently broke off from their bishops as well.

Just for the record, I never called ROCOR schismatic. This is what happens when emotionalism takes over in response to perceived phantoms of debates past. Secondly, the OCA hasn't broke communion.

You phrased the history in a slightly altered light for the sake of an argument. And it's an argument that I don't particularly care for given that I've good friends in this jurisdiction and there are absolutely no theological quarrels between us (but if a few individual priests and bishops are going to do questionable things like rebaptising Orthodox Christians or claim the OCA is heretical or its theologians are uneducated, this is fair game for criticism in any honest discussion). The OCA (Metropolia) was already an existing Church in America prior to the formation of ROCOR. ROCOR was a temporary administrative body, under which the Metropolia temporarily placed itself, but only in matters of faith. Because the temporary body later came to believe they had administrative, Patriarchal control over all Russian Orthodox doesn't make it so. The Metropolia couldn't break away from something when that something didn't create it. The Metropolia and the Russian Orthodox in France merely recognized the status of ROCOR for what it always was meant to be - temporary. It's ROCOR that's decided, whatever the merits of its rationale, to not commune with the OCA. It's not the OCA and other Churches refusing to share communion with them. That's what lets the air out of the argument that it's everyone else picking on ROCOR.

The anti-iconoclast bishops broke communion with the non-iconoclastic bishops and "walled themselves off", setting up a separate "jurisdiction."

The names of the jurisdictions? Yes, I've read of the use of the word "brotherhoods", but that's not quite a new administrative jurisdiction with a new synod of bishops. Perhaps you could share some new information for me in this area.

I also note a tendency in some posters' posts towards indentifying themselves as the "normal" Orthodox Church or arguing by what is the "majority" view.

It's as valid of a tendency as someone who identifies themselves as a Traditionalist or True Orthodox, as if it's an accepted fact that an Untrue or Nontraditionalist Orthodoxy exists. Dustin, I don't really know why you've suddenly taken a hostile attitude towards myself. I'm relatively new to this forum and don't know the history of the personalities, and whether there's an issue with contrary views being taken personally on your part. I hate to say it, but a few have emailed me privately supporting some things I've expressed but don't feel they can do the same for fear of agitating you. Whatever the source is for this, I don't know. There's no reason to be offended by the word "Normal" in my byline when the True O/Traditionalist thing is all over the place. The traditionalist banter doesn't arouse me the slightest since I've been around this block for over a decade. If you don't like anyone expressing criticism of the True O movements, then use your authority and ban all such criticism and let it be known that it's not tolerated in this message board. Tell me to leave now and I'll leave your message board for good, because the last thing I want to do is provoke you to anger, no matter what you may believe.
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« Reply #351 on: February 05, 2005, 03:41:03 AM »

Strelets,

You have extended to me the olive branch so how could I reject it? But allow me to express my perceptions--which you may think are wrong and I will accept whatever you say about your own posts.

I don't consider myself a traditionalist and I don't understand why you insist on considering yourself "normal Orthodox." Either label to me seems provactive. And I furthermore don't know why you insist on calling me Dustin when I identify myself as Anastasios. It's just simple things like this that make me wonder sometimes.

Look buddy, I don't have anything against you personally. I just feel like sometimes you feel threatened when anyone criticizes the OCA [and my pet peeve is anyone calling the Old Calendarists "schismatic" without elaboration]. What got me bothered in the start was when we had the debate about reception of converts and you made it out like the situation was easy to understand and resolved. I get annoyed at oversimplication, which I perceive in your posts. Here is one more example. You say that the Old Calendar jurisdictions are content to be in communion with the New Calendar jurisdictions, etc., and do so without protest. But when the Church of Greece adopted the new Calendar, Pat. Photios of Alexandria protested, as did the Patriarch of Antioch. To this day there are those who protest against ecumenism such as Patriarch Diodoros of blessed memory. He went to the Old Calendarist monastery of Sts Cyprian and Justina and praised their work in 1987. The text of the speech he gave is on orthodoxinfo.com. That is just an example. If you would say that "most people don't seem to care" or "the jurisdictions seem to have resolved this discrepancy without comment" etc, would have not set me off. But to say that no one seems to care which calendar the other uses based on their not breaking communion with one another strikes me as inaccurate and not doing justice to all of the facts. But you know what, I am sure that there is a style of posting that I present that annoys many. I strive not to be partisan but there are many times when I fail.

That some people feel they will feel agitated by me if they post x, y, or z is something I am well aware of. There are posters who inform me of this from time to time. But when I was an avid ecumenist there were people who were afraid to post here; now that I am not an avid ecumenist there are people who are afraid to post here. What can I do? I post what I believe but there are people who tell me that I am fair. I have my (strong) personal opinions but when have I censored debate on this? I restrained myself from debate on this issue earlier based on my belief that I would not be able to say what I believe in a non-polemical way. I came out of the background because I felt that you were using your position as "normal" to win debate points. I fail to see how traditionalists are not normal for instance. However, I do not lable myself a traditionalist. I believe in the Orthodox faith.

Let me put myself out on the line just so you can see that I am "for real" as some like to say. I think many traditionalists are overly provacative. I think some are outright annoying. Some are just plain ignorant. But I see this attitude prevalent in many "non-traditionalist" circles as well. I just went to the Kishkovsky lecture at SVS and was highly offended by what he said about "traditionalists." It betrayed an utter lack of familiarity on his part with the aims of "traditionalists." But I do not see myself as a "traditionalist."

Why did I adopt what appears to be a "traditionalist" point of view? Two reasons. One, I am a totally vile sinner who no longer believes he has the right to question the traditional practice of the Church. Two, because I believe ecumenism interferes with mission and evangelism, a conclusion I came to after taking a class on ecumenism where ecumenism was explained in a very nuanced way by my esteemed professor and friend. Even my friendship and his nuancing of the issue could not lead me to any conclusion other than ecumenism messes with evangelization.

Let me "turn the tables on you" for a second. I don't want you to quit posting but would you and everyone else rather that ***I*** quit posting? Do you prefer that I let everyone express his opinion without weighing in? Does my status prevent discussion? I will quit posting tomorrow if you and the majority of posters thinks it will be better for the board. I have already tried to quit moderating and hope that will be 100% in effect soon.

Let me say one more thing. I will admit that I get excited when some people such as yourself post some things (in other words, not all of your posts and not all of the posts like your posts). But I get off the site, see my wife, see my life, my studies at the seminary, my friends, my parish, etc., and I forget about all of the debates. Nothing on this site gets me too worked up. Don't ever think that a theological debate can get me that provoked. You post what you believe. I will post what I beleive (unless the board members think I should quit posting) and we as adults will learn from each other.

May God bless us all!

Anastasios
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« Reply #352 on: February 05, 2005, 04:57:00 AM »

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It's as valid of a tendency as someone who identifies themselves as a Traditionalist or True Orthodox, as if it's an accepted fact that an Untrue or Nontraditionalist Orthodoxy exists.

Traditionalists movements have always been a part of Orthodoxy, particularly in recent times...  Saint Paisius Velichkovsky and the revival of traditional monasticism in Russia, the Kolyvades on the Holy Mountain, Saint Gregory Palamas et al.  In the United States Fr. Ephraim has been the leader of a traditionalist movement of sorts in the establishment of athonite monasticism here.  In Greece Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos is a good example of a traditionalist.  Your strawman arguments of "breaking communion with their brothers and sisters" do not apply here. 
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« Reply #353 on: February 05, 2005, 04:53:37 PM »

Anastasios,

I'm hoping you didn't interpret that I believe you shouldn't post (on your board). I'm the guest in your house, and have only sought to understand your rules of engagement so as to not arouse any more negative feelings in you.

I just feel like sometimes you feel threatened when anyone criticizes the OCA [and my pet peeve is anyone calling the Old Calendarists "schismatic" without elaboration].

I've not read anything threatening in this board. And I've never called Old Calendarists "schismatic." The terminology is getting abused without end. I'm a believer that words mean something, and not just anything. An Old Calendarist is someone who uses the Julian Calendar. I was married in an Old Calendarist (MP) parish. The Serbian parish where we occasional visit for Nativity is Old Calendarist. This has nothing to do with schisms, nor does it have anything to do with ecumenicism. How can the calendar have anything to do with how far one jurisdiction has engaged in ecumenicism when the same Serbian jurisdiction is in the WCC and often its practices are more western than the OCA? I see absolutely no direct correlation between the calendar and the degree of one jurisdiction's ecumenicism.

When I use the word "schismatic", I mean it in a stringent theological sense. When a member(s) of clergy separates from the communion and the administrative authority of their jurisdiction and sets up a new rival jurisdiction, this is schismatic. And yes, it does get annoying when someone insists upon saying you ran into their fist.

I don't regard ROCOR as schismatic because the red revolution imposed an unfortunate historical anomaly upon everyone involved, thereby creating a complicated mess. However, the situation in the Greek Church is another matter. I know of three groups calling themselves the true Greek Church, and all three call each other schismatic and/or heretical. How am I supposed to describe them when they reference each other by the same TC (theologically correct) words I employ (minus "heretical", which I don't throw around)?

The thrust off all my arguments has been centered around the validity of breaking communion over the calendar, the validity of rebaptising Orthodox Christians, and the labelling of the NC as unlawful.

Here is one more example. You say that the Old Calendar jurisdictions are content to be in communion with the New Calendar jurisdictions, etc., and do so without protest.

I said that? What I've written is that they (MP, JP, SP) don't regard it as a matter worthy of breaking communion. That's why I mentioned in my previous post that these discussions become a replay of debates past, when I wasn't around. Anywho, this will be my last post. It's rather time-consuming to refute comments I didn't make, and my plate is full with other offline activities that need completed. All the best to you in your endeavors.

Rick.

P.S. My addressing you one time by your birth name wasn't intended as a slight. I've a habit of using real names when I read them. My apologies.
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« Reply #354 on: February 07, 2005, 03:23:49 PM »

Nektarios with the greek spelling:

I am really disturbed by one of your statements and I think you need to address it accurately.  I'll post your quote exactly:

"And FWIW I don't drink espresso. "

You do drink Greek coffee, right?

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« Reply #355 on: February 07, 2005, 04:09:32 PM »

Nektarios with the greek spelling:

I am really disturbed by one of your statements and I think you need to address it accurately. I'll post your quote exactly:

"And FWIW I don't drink espresso. "

You do drink Greek coffee, right?



Turkish is better Wink
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« Reply #356 on: February 07, 2005, 04:55:50 PM »

No Greek coffee either - not much a fan of Greek food..... cast stones!
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« Reply #357 on: February 07, 2005, 05:03:02 PM »

No Greek coffee either - not much a fan of Greek food..... cast stones!

You don't like Chicken souvlaki? Gyros? Greek salad? Falafel? What exactly don't you like about it? Wow! Everyone I take to get Greek food loves it! LOL

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« Reply #358 on: February 07, 2005, 05:30:06 PM »

Nektarios with the greek spelling:

I am really disturbed by one of your statements and I think you need to address it accurately. I'll post your quote exactly:

"And FWIW I don't drink espresso. "

You do drink Greek coffee, right?



As one with coffee in the blood, what does espresso have to do with Greeks? Espresso is an Italian term (I'm not Italian) and ISTM that Greeks and most others from the eastern Mediteranean, Middle East, North Africa and parts of the Caucasus drink what is variously called "Greek coffee," "Turkish coffee," or "Arabic coffee."  "Greek coffee" refers to a grind and a brewing method. I understand that it is really Bedouin coffee.

Espresso is a brewing method of Italian origin and spread throughout southern Europe and with migrations came to dominate much of Spanish and Portuguese America. (<that's where I fit it.)

I'm sure some Greeks drink espresso but ethnically speaking the comment should not be about espresso. 

TonyS
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« Reply #359 on: February 07, 2005, 07:35:17 PM »

TonyS,

As anyone who knows me can tell you, I'm still disturbed, regardless of the ethnic connections of espresso and Greek Coffee.
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