Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 879268 times)

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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2700 on: March 22, 2015, 06:07:20 PM »
I remember the most beautiful days of Slobodan Milosevic's reign. We would decorate our cities in 28th of December, we would wait for Roman-Catholic Christmas to be over, and then decorate it, only 3 days before the new year, but we also celebrate old calendar new year, so we make up for it. We really hated Vatican. :D

Now we are EU's little whore, so we decorate cities already in 1st of December.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2701 on: March 22, 2015, 06:09:56 PM »
I remember the most beautiful days of Slobodan Milosevic's reign. We would decorate our cities in 28th of December, we would wait for Roman-Catholic Christmas to be over, and then decorate it, only 3 days before the new year, but we also celebrate old calendar new year, so we make up for it. We really hated Vatican. :D

Now we are EU's little whore, so we decorate cities already in 1st of December.
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2702 on: April 04, 2015, 01:49:00 PM »
Wow, I have to hand it to you, Mockingbird.  ... [Y]our content is more dry, scholarly and boring than a yeshiva student cramming for his finals. Respect.
Aww, shucks, you don't have to butter me up!  :)

This link was posted in the Christian News board, but it might be of interest here, too:

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/roadsfromemmaus/2015/03/31/no-pascha-does-not-have-to-be-after-passover-and-other-orthodox-urban-legends/

The linked article discusses John Zonaras.  My translation of Zonaras's comment on Apostolic canon 7 was posted above in reply #2307:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg1071066.html#msg1071066

Here it is again, for convenience:

Quote from: John Zonaras
Some say the Spring equinox is the 25th day of March; others, the 25th day of April.  I deem that the canon refers to neither the one nor the other.  For Pascha is often celebrated before the 25th of April; and there are times when it is celebrated before the 25th of March; so that, (if "Spring equinox" were so understood)  Pascha is being celebrated in violation of this canon.  Whence it appears that the wise apostles call something else the "Spring equinox."  So the whole thrust of the canon is this, that Christians should not celebrate Pascha with the Jews, that is, on the same day.  For it is fitting that their feast (which is no feast) is done first; and thus we do our Pascha.  If one consecrated to God does this even once, he is removed from orders.  The synod in Antioch also ordered this, in their first canon, where they stated that this was decreed concerning the feast of Pascha by the synod of Nicea, although no such canon is found in the canons of the Nicene synod.

What Zonaras should have written is something like "This canon is void because obsolete.  It presupposes a form of the Jewish calendar that no longer exists."
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2703 on: April 19, 2015, 02:02:38 PM »
Here

http://istina.msu.ru/media/publications/articles/adc/dd7/2750847/Kuzenkov_P._Correction_of_the_Easter_Computus.pdf

is a paper by one Pavel Kuzenkov titled "Correction of the Easter Computus:  Heresy or Necessity?  Forteenth Century Byzantine Forerunners of the Gregorian Reform".  It has a useful overview of Nicephoras Gregoras's calendar reform proposals.

I disagree with Kuzenkov's cynical conclusions about Gregoras's motivations and about the usefulness of reform.   But I like how he is not afraid to use the word "Easter" when writing in English.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2704 on: April 19, 2015, 02:04:14 PM »
Here

http://istina.msu.ru/media/publications/articles/adc/dd7/2750847/Kuzenkov_P._Correction_of_the_Easter_Computus.pdf

is a paper by one Pavel Kuzenkov titled "Correction of the Easter Computus:  Heresy or Necessity?  Forteenth Century Byzantine Forerunners of the Gregorian Reform".  It has a useful overview of Nicephoras Gregoras's calendar reform proposals.

I disagree with Kuzenkov's cynical conclusions about Gregoras's motivations and about the usefulness of reform.   But I like how he is not afraid to use the word "Easter" when writing in English.

Why would you like the fact he uses "Easter"?
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2705 on: April 19, 2015, 02:20:59 PM »
There's nothing wrong with the word "Easter".
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2706 on: April 19, 2015, 04:44:35 PM »
There's nothing wrong with the word "Easter".

Not according to one out of every one and a third American EO. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2707 on: April 19, 2015, 04:48:06 PM »
There's nothing wrong with the word "Easter".

Not according to one out of every one and a third American EO.

Shocking stats, I know.  How much you wanna bet they got there history from Chick tracts?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2708 on: April 20, 2015, 04:19:06 AM »
There's nothing wrong with the word "Easter".
I don't see anything wrong with the word "Easter", though most of the world uses a variant of the word "Pascha" for the feast. Personally, I like "Pascha" much better because the name ties our celebration of the Resurrection much more closely to the Hebrew Passover. Just as the Hebrews slaughtered yearling lambs and painted crosses on their doorways with the blood of their Paschal sacrifices, so Jesus was hung on the Cross to be our Paschal sacrifice. Just as the Hebrews passed over from death to life through their Pascha, so Jesus, and we with Him, pass over from death to Life through our Pascha.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 04:21:07 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2709 on: April 20, 2015, 07:58:55 AM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2710 on: April 20, 2015, 04:05:50 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 04:06:05 PM by вєликаго »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2711 on: April 20, 2015, 04:12:44 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.
Why is "Pascha" the correct word?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2712 on: April 20, 2015, 04:21:23 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2713 on: April 20, 2015, 04:25:10 PM »
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Interesting, I did not know this.  Thanks!

Quote
Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

In Syriac, the name of the feast of Epiphany can be rendered "Dawn", and is sometimes called the feast of the Dawn.  We assign the name "Pascha" to the Thursday of Holy Week and refer to "Easter" simply as the great feast of "the Resurrection". 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2714 on: April 20, 2015, 04:25:39 PM »
I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

How far do you want to take this principle?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2715 on: April 20, 2015, 04:30:33 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Well, it was the Germanics who fell into heresy eventually. Though then the Slavs become communists, so scratch that argument.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2716 on: April 20, 2015, 04:32:10 PM »
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Since the pagans did not observe the feast of the Resurrection, I think this is a poor way to phrase it. Instead, it is a Gothic Christian name for the feast, since Christians chose to refer to the feast by the name of the month it appeared in ...

Quote
Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

Its radical etymology is quite disputed and is probably unknowable. However, before Christian times, the word was evidently a month in the Gothic calendar.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2717 on: April 20, 2015, 04:33:10 PM »
Quote
Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Well, it was the Germanics who fell into heresy eventually. Though then the Slavs become communists, so scratch that argument.

???  Yes, please scratch it by all means.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 04:33:44 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2718 on: April 20, 2015, 04:35:31 PM »
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Since the pagans did not observe the feast of the Resurrection, I think this is a poor way to phrase it. Instead, it is a Gothic Christian name for the feast, since Christians chose to refer to the feast by the name of the month it appeared in ...

Quote
Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

Its radical etymology is quite disputed and is probably unknowable. However, before Christian times, the word was evidently a month in the Gothic calendar.

And I might add that I don't think this is any "worse" than Greeks choosing to refer to the feast of the Resurrection by (more or less) the name of a related Jewish feast.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2719 on: April 20, 2015, 05:06:20 PM »
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Since the pagans did not observe the feast of the Resurrection, I think this is a poor way to phrase it. Instead, it is a Gothic Christian name for the feast, since Christians chose to refer to the feast by the name of the month it appeared in ...

Quote
Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

Its radical etymology is quite disputed and is probably unknowable. However, before Christian times, the word was evidently a month in the Gothic calendar.

Did the Anglo-Saxons get it from the Goths then?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2720 on: April 20, 2015, 05:07:27 PM »
Quote
Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Well, it was the Germanics who fell into heresy eventually. Though then the Slavs become communists, so scratch that argument.

???  Yes, please scratch it by all means.

I was being intentionally facetious. It's the inverse of some arguments I've heard that English shouldn't be used for divine services because it's the language of heretics.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2721 on: April 20, 2015, 05:11:48 PM »
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Since the pagans did not observe the feast of the Resurrection, I think this is a poor way to phrase it. Instead, it is a Gothic Christian name for the feast, since Christians chose to refer to the feast by the name of the month it appeared in ...

Quote
Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

Its radical etymology is quite disputed and is probably unknowable. However, before Christian times, the word was evidently a month in the Gothic calendar.

Did the Anglo-Saxons get it from the Goths then?

Gosh why does this always go so badly for me. I use "Gothic" linguistically and catch flack. I use "Germanic" linguistically and am misunderstood. I think I'll turn to "Proto-German" -- but then someone will say "I thought this was true in Old English?"
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 05:12:36 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2722 on: April 20, 2015, 05:38:32 PM »
It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Since the pagans did not observe the feast of the Resurrection, I think this is a poor way to phrase it. Instead, it is a Gothic Christian name for the feast, since Christians chose to refer to the feast by the name of the month it appeared in ...

Quote
Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

Its radical etymology is quite disputed and is probably unknowable. However, before Christian times, the word was evidently a month in the Gothic calendar.

Did the Anglo-Saxons get it from the Goths then?

Gosh why does this always go so badly for me. I use "Gothic" linguistically and catch flack. I use "Germanic" linguistically and am misunderstood. I think I'll turn to "Proto-German" -- but then someone will say "I thought this was true in Old English?"

I'm not just playing with words. The Goths and the English were distinct peoples by the time they became Christian, so it's relevant whether they inherited the Easter festival from a common pagan ancestor or rather, as you made it sound, the English got the name Easter from a Gothic calendar that was already Christian of some sort.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2723 on: April 20, 2015, 05:45:50 PM »
Now you're doing it on purpose.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2724 on: April 20, 2015, 05:47:23 PM »
Now you're doing it on purpose.

Yeah I'm not reading your mind on purpose. Or maybe you're just terrible at communicating your thoughts.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2725 on: April 20, 2015, 05:53:38 PM »
Okay, then let's take this a step at a time. You and I speak English, right? But we aren't English, right? One is a linguistic term, the other a term for a nation or people.

But really this is not even that ambiguous. Or do you know an ancient people called the "Gothics"?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2726 on: April 20, 2015, 05:55:34 PM »
Okay, then let's take this a step at a time. You and I speak English, right? But we aren't English, right? One is a linguistic term, the other a term for a nation or people.

But really this is not even that ambiguous. Or do you know an ancient people called the "Gothics"?

Are you trying to tell me you think "Gothic" is another term for "Proto-Germanic"? Because it isn't.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2727 on: April 20, 2015, 06:04:44 PM »
It is. But I'm glad you've given up your quest for tribes in a discussion of etymology.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2728 on: April 20, 2015, 06:05:06 PM »
Okay, then let's take this a step at a time. You and I speak English, right? But we aren't English, right? One is a linguistic term, the other a term for a nation or people.

But really this is not even that ambiguous. Or do you know an ancient people called the "Gothics"?

Not just ancient; Crimea was inhabited by Goths (who were Eastern Orthodox, and under Constantinople) until the 1500s. There was even a Metropolitanite of Gothia.

Which makes the recent Russian attempts at revisionist history (to claim Crimea as Russia's supposed heartland) all the more sickening.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 06:06:41 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2729 on: April 20, 2015, 06:16:12 PM »
It is. But I'm glad you've given up your quest for tribes in a discussion of etymology.

Maybe in 1880. No historical linguist today uses the terms Gothic and Proto-Germanic interchangeably, since Gothic is a language in its own right and is NOT the same as Proto-Germanic.

Offline Mountain

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2730 on: April 20, 2015, 06:21:07 PM »
New Calendar brought only division, it is evil. Literally no good came out of it.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2731 on: April 20, 2015, 06:21:59 PM »
New Calendar brought only division, it is evil. Literally no good came out of it.

That's what I've been trying to tell everybody! You and I should hang out some time.

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2732 on: April 20, 2015, 06:23:35 PM »
New Calendar brought only division, it is evil. Literally no good came out of it.

+1

I agree with you and Jonathan.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 06:26:16 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mountain

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2733 on: April 20, 2015, 06:26:14 PM »
New Calendar brought only division, it is evil. Literally no good came out of it.

That's what I've been trying to tell everybody! You and I should hang out some time.

:D Visit me anytime.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2734 on: April 20, 2015, 06:26:19 PM »
It is. But I'm glad you've given up your quest for tribes in a discussion of etymology.

Maybe in 1880. No historical linguist today uses the terms Gothic and Proto-Germanic interchangeably, since Gothic is a language in its own right and is NOT the same as Proto-Germanic.

From not knowing "Gothic" signifies something linguistic to becoming an expert in the nuance among current academics. Let me congratulate you!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 06:26:32 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Maria

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2735 on: April 20, 2015, 06:28:47 PM »
Porter, have you ever read Noam Chomsky, Mark C. Baker, Rene Kager, Ken Hale, and Samuel Jay Keyser?

What about these authors: Beth Levin, Malka Rappaport Hovav, George Lakoff, Mark Johnson, and Raymond W. Gibbs, Jr.?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 06:44:18 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2736 on: April 20, 2015, 06:54:21 PM »
It is. But I'm glad you've given up your quest for tribes in a discussion of etymology.

Maybe in 1880. No historical linguist today uses the terms Gothic and Proto-Germanic interchangeably, since Gothic is a language in its own right and is NOT the same as Proto-Germanic.

From not knowing "Gothic" signifies something linguistic to becoming an expert in the nuance among current academics. Let me congratulate you!

Thanks! I admit it took me many years to get that linguistics PhD, but you've been able to acquire the same expertise in much less time, or so it appears. So really I should take my hat off to you!

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2737 on: April 20, 2015, 06:57:13 PM »
Porter, have you ever read Noam Chomsky, Mark C. Baker, Rene Kager, Ken Hale, and Samuel Jay Keyser?

What about these authors: Beth Levin, Malka Rappaport Hovav, George Lakoff, Mark Johnson, and Raymond W. Gibbs, Jr.?

If he really wants to learn about Germanic linguistics (which I doubt, since he already knows everything), I would suggest he start with Don Ringe A linguistic history of English, Volume I. It assumes some basic knowledge of linguistic theory and the phonetic alphabet, but again, this should be no problem.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2738 on: April 20, 2015, 09:13:27 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2739 on: April 20, 2015, 09:15:49 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?

He said "Germanic". Such as the language you're currently using.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2740 on: April 20, 2015, 09:18:09 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?

He said "Germanic". Such as the language you're currently using.

I'm not part of a Germanic church. Therefore why would I use or adopt Germanic church traditions?
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2741 on: April 20, 2015, 09:20:11 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?

He said "Germanic". Such as the language you're currently using.

I'm not part of a Germanic church. Therefore why would I use or adopt Germanic church traditions?

You are speaking a Germanic language, therefore you should have no problem using Germanic words.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2742 on: April 20, 2015, 09:20:57 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?

He said "Germanic". Such as the language you're currently using.

I'm not part of a Germanic church. Therefore why would I use or adopt Germanic church traditions?

You are speaking a Germanic language, therefore you should have no problem using Germanic words.

Why would I adopt the Germanic word for Pascha?
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2743 on: April 20, 2015, 09:23:58 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?

He said "Germanic". Such as the language you're currently using.

I'm not part of a Germanic church. Therefore why would I use or adopt Germanic church traditions?

You are speaking a Germanic language, therefore you should have no problem using Germanic words.

Why would I adopt the Germanic word for Pascha?

I count 6 Germanic words in your last sentence. Why do you keep using so many Germanic words?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old vs. New Calendar?
« Reply #2744 on: April 20, 2015, 09:25:35 PM »
Insisting on saying "Pascha" rather than "Easter" strikes me as analogous to insisting that we "write" icons rather than paint them. The point is, when I say "Easter", you know perfectly well what I mean, or if I need to clarify I can say "Orthodox Easter" as opposed to "Western Easter". I think you could even make a good case that "Easter" is a spiritually healthy appropriation and sanctification of a pagan name, just as our calendar is an appropriation and sanctification of originally non-Christian (pagan and Jewish) systems of keeping time.

It is interesting, though, how English (and German) ended up using the pagan name for the feast, while even other Germanic cultures (e.g. Scandinavians) used the Hebraic Pascha (e.g. Danish "Paaske").

Etymologically, the name "Easter" is also appropriate because it is derived from an old root meaning "dawn". Christ is our Dawn, after all.

I disagree, there really is no need for all that, Pascha is the correct word, easter is not.

Considering "Easter" has been used by the Germanic-speaking Church since perhaps the late 300s -- which, by the way, is several centuries earlier than the conversion of the Slavs -- I don't think there's basis for criticism.

Are you a member of the german speaking church?

He said "Germanic". Such as the language you're currently using.

I'm not part of a Germanic church. Therefore why would I use or adopt Germanic church traditions?

You are speaking a Germanic language, therefore you should have no problem using Germanic words.

Why would I adopt the Germanic word for Pascha?

I count 6 Germanic words in your last sentence. Why do you keep using so many Germanic words?

I fail to see your point? That is not reasonable grounds to replace the word Pascha with easter.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 09:25:56 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What