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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 191292 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #2115 on: August 14, 2013, 10:11:24 PM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue, so I'm sorry but I don't buy that excuse. The truly humble action would be to repent of the violation of Church order that you committed when you unilaterally altered the calendar.

EDIT: And I think it's become clear that "revised Julian" really is a misnomer, meant to deceive people into thinking that somehow it's the same old calendar with just a few cosmetic changes and there has been no interruption (as it seems to have deceived ialmisry).
if it helps you stay in denial about what the Fathers of Nicea called an Equinox, go ahead and repeat that to yourself.  Just don't be shocked that no one buys it.
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« Reply #2116 on: August 15, 2013, 09:27:52 AM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue, so I'm sorry but I don't buy that excuse. The truly humble action would be to repent of the violation of Church order that you committed when you unilaterally altered the calendar.

EDIT: And I think it's become clear that "revised Julian" really is a misnomer, meant to deceive people into thinking that somehow it's the same old calendar with just a few cosmetic changes and there has been no interruption (as it seems to have deceived ialmisry).

Our humility exhibited itself in celebrating Pascha with our brethren who stubbornly insisted on holding onto a bad secular calendar, even to the point of conflating the Church order with a pagan calendar. You tire me Jonathan with your inability to see and understand simple things.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 09:28:37 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

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« Reply #2117 on: August 21, 2013, 01:27:54 PM »

There is no problem using different claendars. It's abd to make it dogmatic.
Oh, and a common mistake. You know why they call it the Old and the New calendar?
Because it's the Old and the New JULIAN calendar( Known also as revised julian calendar)!!! The Church use the New Julian calendar not the Gregorian-one. Search it in wikipedia if you want.
There is no reason to get away from a church because of a non dogmatic change. Did you know that for many centuries christian ate the Communion like the priests or else they were excommunicated? But then Saint John Chrysostomus came and introduce the little spoon-like thing( I know not it's name in English).

This has come up before, but I've never received a satisfactory answer: why do you call the New calendar the "revised Julian"? Since the "revised Julian" is more similar to the Gregorian than to the actual Julian calendar, why not call it the "revised Gregorian"?
Others have already given some well informed answers. If I need to be corrected, please do so, but I believe the Gregorian calendar includes a reform of the Paschalion (the formula for calculating Pascha/Easter). As I understand it, the Revised Julian Calendar, if and when fully implemented, would continue to use the Julian Paschalion, as the purpose of the Revised Julian is to reset March 21 to be and remain more astronomically correct .

If the revised Julian is the true calendar, then Pascha is calculated incorrectly by the new calendarists, since Pascha should be calculated with respect to March 21, whereas on the new calendar Pascha is calculated with respect to April 3.
How often must I correct this old canard? It's not the New Calendar that mandates our current practice of calculating Pascha in respect to April 3; rather, it's the fact that we still celebrate Pascha on the Old Calendar while celebrating the menologion on the New.

Thank you for making your self-contradictory position even more explicit.

Thank you for pointing out this contradiction, Jonathan.
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« Reply #2118 on: August 21, 2013, 01:30:33 PM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue, so I'm sorry but I don't buy that excuse. The truly humble action would be to repent of the violation of Church order that you committed when you unilaterally altered the calendar.

EDIT: And I think it's become clear that "revised Julian" really is a misnomer, meant to deceive people into thinking that somehow it's the same old calendar with just a few cosmetic changes and there has been no interruption (as it seems to have deceived ialmisry).

Our humility exhibited itself in celebrating Pascha with our brethren who stubbornly insisted on holding onto a bad secular calendar, even to the point of conflating the Church order with a pagan calendar. You tire me Jonathan with your inability to see and understand simple things.

Humility calls brethren stubborn?

That is arrogance, not humility.
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« Reply #2119 on: August 21, 2013, 01:33:48 PM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue

That's exactly what the old calendarists did.

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« Reply #2120 on: August 21, 2013, 01:37:41 PM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue

That's exactly what the old calendarists did.



Let me ask: Who broke with Holy Tradition and started this New Calendar division? Wasn't it Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks. (source: St. Nectarios)
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« Reply #2121 on: August 21, 2013, 01:59:41 PM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue, so I'm sorry but I don't buy that excuse. The truly humble action would be to repent of the violation of Church order that you committed when you unilaterally altered the calendar.

EDIT: And I think it's become clear that "revised Julian" really is a misnomer, meant to deceive people into thinking that somehow it's the same old calendar with just a few cosmetic changes and there has been no interruption (as it seems to have deceived ialmisry).

Our humility exhibited itself in celebrating Pascha with our brethren who stubbornly insisted on holding onto a bad secular calendar, even to the point of conflating the Church order with a pagan calendar. You tire me Jonathan with your inability to see and understand simple things.

Humility calls brethren stubborn?

That is arrogance, not humility.

Certainly it does. It took lots of humility not to use other adjectives.  Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin angel laugh police
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« Reply #2122 on: August 21, 2013, 02:01:16 PM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue

That's exactly what the old calendarists did.



Let me ask: Who broke with Holy Tradition and started this New Calendar division? Wasn't it Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks. (source: St. Nectarios)

So now we have self-anointed guardians of, and experts in, Holy Tradition? I ask you: where is the humility?  angel laugh police
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« Reply #2123 on: August 21, 2013, 02:04:16 PM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue

That's exactly what the old calendarists did.



Let me ask: Who broke with Holy Tradition and started this New Calendar division? Wasn't it Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks. (source: St. Nectarios)
That would be those who broke with the definition of the Equinox used by the Fathers of Nicea.

The "abandonment" of facial hair predates EP Meletios (who, btw, did not preside over the Synod in question): I've seen plenty of pictures of St. John Kochurov, who was martyred by then, and he doesn't have a beard in any of them.

I don't know what "frocks" you are talking about.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 02:11:54 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #2124 on: August 21, 2013, 02:06:44 PM »

If you were so humble, you wouldn't have created a division over this issue

That's exactly what the old calendarists did.



Let me ask: Who broke with Holy Tradition and started this New Calendar division? Wasn't it Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks. (source: St. Nectarios)

So now we have self-anointed guardians of, and experts in, Holy Tradition? I ask you: where is the humility?  angel laugh police

St. Nectarios of Aegina advised his seminarians to continue the traditions of wearing facial hair and the priestly frock or raissa. He was a humble guardian of Holy Tradition.
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« Reply #2125 on: August 21, 2013, 02:46:41 PM »

Wasn't it Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks. (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?
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« Reply #2126 on: August 21, 2013, 05:23:30 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 05:24:59 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #2127 on: August 21, 2013, 10:49:06 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."
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« Reply #2128 on: August 21, 2013, 10:51:57 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.

I'm giving you another 48 hours to give the exact reference.  As the rules state:


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* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

If you cannot find the reference, it is perfectly acceptable for me to retract from what you wrote and admit you can't find the reference.  When suitable time comes for you, then you may provide the reference.  But if a retraction or reference does not come within the next 48 hrs, I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue a warning.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 10:35:35 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #2129 on: August 21, 2013, 11:00:37 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.
and who brought St. Nectarios up?
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #2130 on: August 21, 2013, 11:01:31 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.
and who brought St. Nectarios up?

I did not bring up his glorification, you did.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:02:36 PM by Maria » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #2131 on: August 21, 2013, 11:19:58 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.
and who brought St. Nectarios up?

I did not bring up his glorification, you did.
IOW, you brought him up, expecting no followup.
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« Reply #2132 on: August 25, 2013, 09:52:33 PM »

Eastern Orthodox full moon (except in Finland.)
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« Reply #2133 on: August 25, 2013, 10:09:20 PM »

Eastern Orthodox full moon (except in Finland.)

not quite.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #2134 on: August 28, 2013, 03:57:59 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.

I'm giving you another 48 hours to give the exact reference.  As the rules state:


Quote
* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

If you cannot find the reference, it is perfectly acceptable for me to retract from what you wrote and admit you can't find the reference.  When suitable time comes for you, then you may provide the reference.  But if a retraction or reference does not come within the next 48 hrs, I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue a warning.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013


Reference:

Saint Nektarios: The Saint of our Century
by Sotos Chondropoulos, translated from the Greek by Peter and Alkik Los
Athens, Greece 1997
Chapters 11, 12, and 13

Thank you! Much appreciated!

God bless!

Mina

August 31, 2013
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 09:25:02 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #2135 on: August 28, 2013, 05:32:23 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.

I'm giving you another 48 hours to give the exact reference.  As the rules state:


Quote
* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

If you cannot find the reference, it is perfectly acceptable for me to retract from what you wrote and admit you can't find the reference.  When suitable time comes for you, then you may provide the reference.  But if a retraction or reference does not come within the next 48 hrs, I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue a warning.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013


Reference:

Saint Nektarios: The Saint of our Century
by Sotos Chondropoulos, translated from the Greek by Peter and Alkik Los
Athens, Greece 1997
Chapters 11, 12, and 13

I am as confused as others; St. Nectarios' last years were not conducive to being involved in such matters as the calendar. From the Wiki: "In December 1908, at the age of 62, St. Nectarios resigned from his post as school director and withdrew to the Holy Trinity Convent on Aegina, where he lived out the rest of his life as a Monk. He wrote, published, preached, and heard confessions from those who came from near and far to seek out his spiritual guidance. While at the monastery, he also tended the gardens, carried stones, and helped with the construction of the monastery buildings that were built with his own funds. St. Nectarios died on the evening of 9 November 1920 (O.S. 8 November) at the age of 74, following hospitalization for prostate cancer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nectarios_of_Aegina

Consideration for revising the Julian calendar must have started earlier than 1923. However, I doubt that Saint Nectarios would have kept abreast of such considerations unless they were seriously considered before 1908, when the saint retired and became a simple monk.

I simply cannot believe your assertion that Saint Nectarios opposed the Revised Julian Calendar and actions by Patriarch Meletios three years after his (the saint's) burial.
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« Reply #2136 on: August 28, 2013, 05:40:49 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.

I'm giving you another 48 hours to give the exact reference.  As the rules state:


Quote
* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

If you cannot find the reference, it is perfectly acceptable for me to retract from what you wrote and admit you can't find the reference.  When suitable time comes for you, then you may provide the reference.  But if a retraction or reference does not come within the next 48 hrs, I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue a warning.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013


Reference:

Saint Nektarios: The Saint of our Century
by Sotos Chondropoulos, translated from the Greek by Peter and Alkik Los
Athens, Greece 1997
Chapters 11, 12, and 13

I am as confused as others; St. Nectarios' last years were not conducive to being involved in such matters as the calendar. From the Wiki: "In December 1908, at the age of 62, St. Nectarios resigned from his post as school director and withdrew to the Holy Trinity Convent on Aegina, where he lived out the rest of his life as a Monk. He wrote, published, preached, and heard confessions from those who came from near and far to seek out his spiritual guidance. While at the monastery, he also tended the gardens, carried stones, and helped with the construction of the monastery buildings that were built with his own funds. St. Nectarios died on the evening of 9 November 1920 (O.S. 8 November) at the age of 74, following hospitalization for prostate cancer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nectarios_of_Aegina

Consideration for revising the Julian calendar must have started earlier than 1923. However, I doubt that Saint Nectarios would have kept abreast of such considerations unless they were seriously considered before 1908, when the saint retired and became a simple monk.

I simply cannot believe your assertion that Saint Nectarios opposed the Revised Julian Calendar and actions by Patriarch Meletios three years after his (the saint's) burial.

Some wild conclusions.

I simply stated that St. Nectarios was not a New Calendarist saint. He died in 1920 before the mandatory institution of the New Calendar.

St. Nectarios never retired to become a simple monk. He was a retired bishop and celebrated the Divine Liturgy.

Please cite your source, Second Chance, that suggests that St. Nectarios died as a simple monk.
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« Reply #2137 on: August 28, 2013, 06:21:03 PM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.

I'm giving you another 48 hours to give the exact reference.  As the rules state:


Quote
* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

If you cannot find the reference, it is perfectly acceptable for me to retract from what you wrote and admit you can't find the reference.  When suitable time comes for you, then you may provide the reference.  But if a retraction or reference does not come within the next 48 hrs, I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue a warning.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013


Reference:

Saint Nektarios: The Saint of our Century
by Sotos Chondropoulos, translated from the Greek by Peter and Alkik Los
Athens, Greece 1997
Chapters 11, 12, and 13

I am as confused as others; St. Nectarios' last years were not conducive to being involved in such matters as the calendar. From the Wiki: "In December 1908, at the age of 62, St. Nectarios resigned from his post as school director and withdrew to the Holy Trinity Convent on Aegina, where he lived out the rest of his life as a Monk. He wrote, published, preached, and heard confessions from those who came from near and far to seek out his spiritual guidance. While at the monastery, he also tended the gardens, carried stones, and helped with the construction of the monastery buildings that were built with his own funds. St. Nectarios died on the evening of 9 November 1920 (O.S. 8 November) at the age of 74, following hospitalization for prostate cancer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nectarios_of_Aegina

Consideration for revising the Julian calendar must have started earlier than 1923. However, I doubt that Saint Nectarios would have kept abreast of such considerations unless they were seriously considered before 1908, when the saint retired and became a simple monk.

I simply cannot believe your assertion that Saint Nectarios opposed the Revised Julian Calendar and actions by Patriarch Meletios three years after his (the saint's) burial.

Some wild conclusions.

I simply stated that St. Nectarios was not a New Calendarist saint. He died in 1920 before the mandatory institution of the New Calendar.

St. Nectarios never retired to become a simple monk. He was a retired bishop and celebrated the Divine Liturgy.

Please cite your source, Second Chance, that suggests that St. Nectarios died as a simple monk.

May I point out that I have already sourced the quotation in question, where it plainly states that he resigned as school director. I am sure that that he remained as a retired bishop  and was able to  ordain two nuns to be deaconesses in 2011. My point was to show my impression that he wanted the simpler life of retired bishop/monk (they are not mutually exclusive) around the turn of the century. I apologize for misunderstanding you. It never occurred to me that anyone would make such a distinction as new calendar/old calendar saint. For your information, "Official recognition of Nectarios as a Saint by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople took place on 20 April 1961." So, are you saying that this recognition is bogus, inapplicable, invalid, whatever falsity you are advancing on this subject? Also, please explain to me why would you drag St Nectarios into a discussion on the relative merits of the two calendars used by the worldwide Orthodox community?
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« Reply #2138 on: August 28, 2013, 06:44:54 PM »

Please, let's get back on topic. I merely responded because I was required to by a mod.



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« Reply #2139 on: August 28, 2013, 10:54:53 PM »

Personally, I would prefer the Old Calendar, but only because the New Calendar was forced on the Church of Greece and Constantinople. The calendar issue caused divisions in the OCA, with the Mayfield parish and a few other parishes in PA leaving for ROCOR because the bishop of PA in the 1980s forced Pennsylvania parishes to change to the New Calendar. In addition, there are some liturgically awkward times (St. Peter's fast and Kyriopascha especially come to mind) when certain liturgical features that happen under the Old Calendar disappear or are rarer with the new calendar.
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« Reply #2140 on: August 28, 2013, 11:22:01 PM »

In addition, there are some liturgically awkward times (St. Peter's fast and Kyriopascha especially come to mind) when certain liturgical features that happen under the Old Calendar disappear or are rarer with the new calendar.
It's true that everyone operating on the Old Calendar would fix this, but it also wouldn't be an issue if everyone would make the switch.

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« Reply #2141 on: August 29, 2013, 12:18:31 AM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.

I'm giving you another 48 hours to give the exact reference.  As the rules state:


Quote
* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

If you cannot find the reference, it is perfectly acceptable for me to retract from what you wrote and admit you can't find the reference.  When suitable time comes for you, then you may provide the reference.  But if a retraction or reference does not come within the next 48 hrs, I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue a warning.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013


Reference:

Saint Nektarios: The Saint of our Century
by Sotos Chondropoulos, translated from the Greek by Peter and Alkik Los
Athens, Greece 1997
Chapters 11, 12, and 13

I am as confused as others; St. Nectarios' last years were not conducive to being involved in such matters as the calendar. From the Wiki: "In December 1908, at the age of 62, St. Nectarios resigned from his post as school director and withdrew to the Holy Trinity Convent on Aegina, where he lived out the rest of his life as a Monk. He wrote, published, preached, and heard confessions from those who came from near and far to seek out his spiritual guidance. While at the monastery, he also tended the gardens, carried stones, and helped with the construction of the monastery buildings that were built with his own funds. St. Nectarios died on the evening of 9 November 1920 (O.S. 8 November) at the age of 74, following hospitalization for prostate cancer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nectarios_of_Aegina

Consideration for revising the Julian calendar must have started earlier than 1923. However, I doubt that Saint Nectarios would have kept abreast of such considerations unless they were seriously considered before 1908, when the saint retired and became a simple monk.

I simply cannot believe your assertion that Saint Nectarios opposed the Revised Julian Calendar and actions by Patriarch Meletios three years after his (the saint's) burial.
Not the calendar, but he could have opposed Met./Abp/EP/Pope Meletius' other acts: the "National Schism" was in full swing in Greece, coming to a head shortly after St. Nektarios' repose.
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« Reply #2142 on: August 29, 2013, 12:21:42 AM »

Wasn't it AB Meletios and his friends in the hierarchy who not only encouraged the New Calendar movement but also encouraged priests to abandon facial hair and the wearing of priestly frocks? (source: St. Nectarios)

I lolled. BTW, do you venerate New Calendarist Saints?

St. Nectarios died in 1920 before the mandatory imposition of the New Calendar in 1924.
He is not a new calendar saint, but a universal church saint.
And it was AB Meletios who harassed St. Nectarios while he was on his death bed.
Met./Ab/EP/Pope Meletius was too busy meddling in America and being deposed to be harrassing St. Nectarios on his death bed-where did you see it claimed (and substantiated) otherwise?

St. Nectarios was glorified after 1924, by the New Calendar Churches.  We only have "universal Church saints."

It was in one of his biographies. I have to go and find it. AB Meletius came to the island where St. Nectarios lay dying and demanded the impossible. Lord have mercy.

It wasn't until 1934 or 1935, that the first True Synod of Bishops was established. But this is off topic to this discussion on Old Calendar, so please do not push the issue.

The topic of discussion is Old vs. New Calendar, not St. Nectarios' glorification.

I'm giving you another 48 hours to give the exact reference.  As the rules state:


Quote
* References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

If you cannot find the reference, it is perfectly acceptable for me to retract from what you wrote and admit you can't find the reference.  When suitable time comes for you, then you may provide the reference.  But if a retraction or reference does not come within the next 48 hrs, I'm afraid I'm going to have to issue a warning.

God bless you.

Mina

August 27, 2013


Reference:

Saint Nektarios: The Saint of our Century
by Sotos Chondropoulos, translated from the Greek by Peter and Alkik Los
Athens, Greece 1997
Chapters 11, 12, and 13

I am as confused as others; St. Nectarios' last years were not conducive to being involved in such matters as the calendar. From the Wiki: "In December 1908, at the age of 62, St. Nectarios resigned from his post as school director and withdrew to the Holy Trinity Convent on Aegina, where he lived out the rest of his life as a Monk. He wrote, published, preached, and heard confessions from those who came from near and far to seek out his spiritual guidance. While at the monastery, he also tended the gardens, carried stones, and helped with the construction of the monastery buildings that were built with his own funds. St. Nectarios died on the evening of 9 November 1920 (O.S. 8 November) at the age of 74, following hospitalization for prostate cancer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nectarios_of_Aegina

Consideration for revising the Julian calendar must have started earlier than 1923. However, I doubt that Saint Nectarios would have kept abreast of such considerations unless they were seriously considered before 1908, when the saint retired and became a simple monk.

I simply cannot believe your assertion that Saint Nectarios opposed the Revised Julian Calendar and actions by Patriarch Meletios three years after his (the saint's) burial.

Some wild conclusions.

I simply stated that St. Nectarios was not a New Calendarist saint. He died in 1920 before the mandatory institution of the New Calendar.
He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

And we only have Universal saints.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #2143 on: August 29, 2013, 12:26:32 AM »

He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

I always found that curious.  He was canonised by "graceless heretics", but that was recognised as a legitimate canonisation without any of the Old Calendarists "repeating" it.  Icons of St Nektarios are in Old Calendarist churches, and Old Calendarist churches are dedicated to him.  How does that work?  Has that question (a tangent here) been discussed elsewhere on the forum?   
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« Reply #2144 on: August 29, 2013, 12:42:22 AM »

He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

I always found that curious.  He was canonised by "graceless heretics", but that was recognised as a legitimate canonisation without any of the Old Calendarists "repeating" it.  Icons of St Nektarios are in Old Calendarist churches, and Old Calendarist churches are dedicated to him.  How does that work?  Has that question (a tangent here) been discussed elsewhere on the forum?   

I've heard/read of Old Calendarists who malign him.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:42:50 AM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #2145 on: August 29, 2013, 05:42:00 AM »

Personally, I would prefer the Old Calendar, but only because the New Calendar was forced on the Church of Greece and Constantinople. The calendar issue caused divisions in the OCA, with the Mayfield parish and a few other parishes in PA leaving for ROCOR because the bishop of PA in the 1980s forced Pennsylvania parishes to change to the New Calendar. In addition, there are some liturgically awkward times (St. Peter's fast and Kyriopascha especially come to mind) when certain liturgical features that happen under the Old Calendar disappear or are rarer with the new calendar.
You do recognize that we still follow the Old Calendar for the Paschalion? If we also celebrated Pascha on the New Calendar, then the problems you identify would not be problems.
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« Reply #2146 on: August 29, 2013, 07:32:56 AM »

He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

I always found that curious.  He was canonised by "graceless heretics", but that was recognised as a legitimate canonisation without any of the Old Calendarists "repeating" it.  Icons of St Nektarios are in Old Calendarist churches, and Old Calendarist churches are dedicated to him.  How does that work?  Has that question (a tangent here) been discussed elsewhere on the forum?   

I've heard/read of Old Calendarists who malign him.

I don't think that this is now the case, though there had been some Old Calendarist groups in Greece that at one time were opposed to his glorification.  In what is left of HOCNA, there are parishes dedicated to St. Nektarios, but remember that they also published a book recognizing St. Nicholas (Planas) as a saint who was also glorified by the New Calendar Church of Greece.  Historically, HOCNA did not believe that the Church of Greece "fell away" until the 1960s when Patriarch Athenagoras "lifted the anathemas".  At the time that this was done by Patriarch Athenagoras, the founders of HOCNA were still part of the Greek Archdiocese in America and on the New Calendar.  They were once critical of the Old Calendarists for their belief that the Church of Greece "lost the grace of the Holy Spirit" when the New Calendar was adopted.  Since going from the Greek Archdiocese to ROCOR, and then leaving ROCOR to join the Greek Old Calendarists, HOCNA has leaned more towards the "no grace on the New Calendar" position while trying not to state this too officially so as to not discredit their past position or alienate their own who never believed this.

The Greek Old Calendarists under Met Pavlos in America now contain many former HOCNA parishes, clergy, and laity, including a cathedral dedicated to St. Nektarios.  Regarding "no grace on the New Calendar", this position is also not very rigid among this group which has a history of giving communion to those who are on the New Calendar. 

It is interesting to note that St. Nektarios reposed in 1920 just before the calendar change, that many stories exist of how he guided the women's monastery that he established even after his repose, and that this monastery in Aegina remained in the Church of Greece and adopted the New Calendar.   
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 07:35:50 AM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #2147 on: August 29, 2013, 11:24:28 AM »

He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

I always found that curious.  He was canonised by "graceless heretics", but that was recognised as a legitimate canonisation without any of the Old Calendarists "repeating" it.  Icons of St Nektarios are in Old Calendarist churches, and Old Calendarist churches are dedicated to him.  How does that work?  Has that question (a tangent here) been discussed elsewhere on the forum?   

I've heard/read of Old Calendarists who malign him.

I don't think that this is now the case, though there had been some Old Calendarist groups in Greece that at one time were opposed to his glorification.  In what is left of HOCNA, there are parishes dedicated to St. Nektarios, but remember that they also published a book recognizing St. Nicholas (Planas) as a saint who was also glorified by the New Calendar Church of Greece.  Historically, HOCNA did not believe that the Church of Greece "fell away" until the 1960s when Patriarch Athenagoras "lifted the anathemas".  At the time that this was done by Patriarch Athenagoras, the founders of HOCNA were still part of the Greek Archdiocese in America and on the New Calendar.  They were once critical of the Old Calendarists for their belief that the Church of Greece "lost the grace of the Holy Spirit" when the New Calendar was adopted.  Since going from the Greek Archdiocese to ROCOR, and then leaving ROCOR to join the Greek Old Calendarists, HOCNA has leaned more towards the "no grace on the New Calendar" position while trying not to state this too officially so as to not discredit their past position or alienate their own who never believed this.

The Greek Old Calendarists under Met Pavlos in America now contain many former HOCNA parishes, clergy, and laity, including a cathedral dedicated to St. Nektarios.  Regarding "no grace on the New Calendar", this position is also not very rigid among this group which has a history of giving communion to those who are on the New Calendar. 

It is interesting to note that St. Nektarios reposed in 1920 just before the calendar change, that many stories exist of how he guided the women's monastery that he established even after his repose, and that this monastery in Aegina remained in the Church of Greece and adopted the New Calendar.   

What do you mean by the last paragraph? Are you implying that St Nektarios would have approved of his monastery remaining with the New Calendar? That's a bit of a stretch, I think.
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« Reply #2148 on: August 29, 2013, 11:29:12 AM »

He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

I always found that curious.  He was canonised by "graceless heretics", but that was recognised as a legitimate canonisation without any of the Old Calendarists "repeating" it.  Icons of St Nektarios are in Old Calendarist churches, and Old Calendarist churches are dedicated to him.  How does that work?  Has that question (a tangent here) been discussed elsewhere on the forum?   

I also wonder about the inconsistency, though I think if you consider the history of the veneration of saints, it usually begins in an informal manner. Formal glorification by the Church is simply a recognition of a fact already established. I have seen Old Calendarists venerating St Nektarios, St Nikolai Velimirovic, St Nikodimos Agioritis and others who were only formally glorified by the New Calendar church, but the saints themselves can't be described as "new calendarist" saints, since they either reposed before the calendar change, or else they remained with the Old Calendar after the change.
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« Reply #2149 on: August 29, 2013, 11:29:59 AM »

Personally, I would prefer the Old Calendar, but only because the New Calendar was forced on the Church of Greece and Constantinople. The calendar issue caused divisions in the OCA, with the Mayfield parish and a few other parishes in PA leaving for ROCOR because the bishop of PA in the 1980s forced Pennsylvania parishes to change to the New Calendar. In addition, there are some liturgically awkward times (St. Peter's fast and Kyriopascha especially come to mind) when certain liturgical features that happen under the Old Calendar disappear or are rarer with the new calendar.
You do recognize that we still follow the Old Calendar for the Paschalion? If we also celebrated Pascha on the New Calendar, then the problems you identify would not be problems.

But you don't, so they are problems. Smiley
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« Reply #2150 on: August 29, 2013, 11:40:53 AM »

He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

I always found that curious.  He was canonised by "graceless heretics", but that was recognised as a legitimate canonisation without any of the Old Calendarists "repeating" it.  Icons of St Nektarios are in Old Calendarist churches, and Old Calendarist churches are dedicated to him.  How does that work?  Has that question (a tangent here) been discussed elsewhere on the forum?   

I've heard/read of Old Calendarists who malign him.

I don't think that this is now the case, though there had been some Old Calendarist groups in Greece that at one time were opposed to his glorification.  In what is left of HOCNA, there are parishes dedicated to St. Nektarios, but remember that they also published a book recognizing St. Nicholas (Planas) as a saint who was also glorified by the New Calendar Church of Greece.  Historically, HOCNA did not believe that the Church of Greece "fell away" until the 1960s when Patriarch Athenagoras "lifted the anathemas".  At the time that this was done by Patriarch Athenagoras, the founders of HOCNA were still part of the Greek Archdiocese in America and on the New Calendar.  They were once critical of the Old Calendarists for their belief that the Church of Greece "lost the grace of the Holy Spirit" when the New Calendar was adopted.  Since going from the Greek Archdiocese to ROCOR, and then leaving ROCOR to join the Greek Old Calendarists, HOCNA has leaned more towards the "no grace on the New Calendar" position while trying not to state this too officially so as to not discredit their past position or alienate their own who never believed this.

The Greek Old Calendarists under Met Pavlos in America now contain many former HOCNA parishes, clergy, and laity, including a cathedral dedicated to St. Nektarios.  Regarding "no grace on the New Calendar", this position is also not very rigid among this group which has a history of giving communion to those who are on the New Calendar. 

It is interesting to note that St. Nektarios reposed in 1920 just before the calendar change, that many stories exist of how he guided the women's monastery that he established even after his repose, and that this monastery in Aegina remained in the Church of Greece and adopted the New Calendar.   

What do you mean by the last paragraph? Are you implying that St Nektarios would have approved of his monastery remaining with the New Calendar?

Yes, this is what I believe.

He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

I always found that curious.  He was canonised by "graceless heretics", but that was recognised as a legitimate canonisation without any of the Old Calendarists "repeating" it.  Icons of St Nektarios are in Old Calendarist churches, and Old Calendarist churches are dedicated to him.  How does that work?  Has that question (a tangent here) been discussed elsewhere on the forum?   

I also wonder about the inconsistency, though I think if you consider the history of the veneration of saints, it usually begins in an informal manner. Formal glorification by the Church is simply a recognition of a fact already established. I have seen Old Calendarists venerating St Nektarios, St Nikolai Velimirovic, St Nikodimos Agioritis and others who were only formally glorified by the New Calendar church, but the saints themselves can't be described as "new calendarist" saints, since they either reposed before the calendar change, or else they remained with the Old Calendar after the change.

Yes, but with St. Nektarios he is not simply venerated privately by Old Calendarists.  There are Old Calendarist churches named after him when no Old Calendarist Synod came together to officially recognize him as a saint, an authority they seem to have deferred to bishops with whom they are not in communion.
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« Reply #2151 on: August 29, 2013, 11:42:56 AM »

Personally, I would prefer the Old Calendar, but only because the New Calendar was forced on the Church of Greece and Constantinople. The calendar issue caused divisions in the OCA, with the Mayfield parish and a few other parishes in PA leaving for ROCOR because the bishop of PA in the 1980s forced Pennsylvania parishes to change to the New Calendar. In addition, there are some liturgically awkward times (St. Peter's fast and Kyriopascha especially come to mind) when certain liturgical features that happen under the Old Calendar disappear or are rarer with the new calendar.
You do recognize that we still follow the Old Calendar for the Paschalion? If we also celebrated Pascha on the New Calendar, then the problems you identify would not be problems.

But you don't, so they are problems. Smiley
They're not problems in following the New Calendar per se, which is the context of my rebuttal to ilyazhito.
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« Reply #2152 on: August 29, 2013, 11:55:50 AM »

He wasn't glorified in 1920. And when he was glorified, it was by the New Calendarists.

I always found that curious.  He was canonised by "graceless heretics", but that was recognised as a legitimate canonisation without any of the Old Calendarists "repeating" it.  Icons of St Nektarios are in Old Calendarist churches, and Old Calendarist churches are dedicated to him.  How does that work?  Has that question (a tangent here) been discussed elsewhere on the forum?   

I've heard/read of Old Calendarists who malign him.

I don't think that this is now the case, though there had been some Old Calendarist groups in Greece that at one time were opposed to his glorification.  In what is left of HOCNA, there are parishes dedicated to St. Nektarios, but remember that they also published a book recognizing St. Nicholas (Planas) as a saint who was also glorified by the New Calendar Church of Greece.  Historically, HOCNA did not believe that the Church of Greece "fell away" until the 1960s when Patriarch Athenagoras "lifted the anathemas".  At the time that this was done by Patriarch Athenagoras, the founders of HOCNA were still part of the Greek Archdiocese in America and on the New Calendar.  They were once critical of the Old Calendarists for their belief that the Church of Greece "lost the grace of the Holy Spirit" when the New Calendar was adopted.  Since going from the Greek Archdiocese to ROCOR, and then leaving ROCOR to join the Greek Old Calendarists, HOCNA has leaned more towards the "no grace on the New Calendar" position while trying not to state this too officially so as to not discredit their past position or alienate their own who never believed this.

The Greek Old Calendarists under Met Pavlos in America now contain many former HOCNA parishes, clergy, and laity, including a cathedral dedicated to St. Nektarios.  Regarding "no grace on the New Calendar", this position is also not very rigid among this group which has a history of giving communion to those who are on the New Calendar. 

It is interesting to note that St. Nektarios reposed in 1920 just before the calendar change, that many stories exist of how he guided the women's monastery that he established even after his repose, and that this monastery in Aegina remained in the Church of Greece and adopted the New Calendar.   

sounds like they've learned that trick from Rome Wink
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« Reply #2153 on: August 29, 2013, 12:13:03 PM »

Personally, I would prefer the Old Calendar, but only because the New Calendar was forced on the Church of Greece and Constantinople. The calendar issue caused divisions in the OCA, with the Mayfield parish and a few other parishes in PA leaving for ROCOR because the bishop of PA in the 1980s forced Pennsylvania parishes to change to the New Calendar. In addition, there are some liturgically awkward times (St. Peter's fast and Kyriopascha especially come to mind) when certain liturgical features that happen under the Old Calendar disappear or are rarer with the new calendar.
You do recognize that we still follow the Old Calendar for the Paschalion? If we also celebrated Pascha on the New Calendar, then the problems you identify would not be problems.

But you don't, so they are problems. Smiley
They're not problems in following the New Calendar per se, which is the context of my rebuttal to ilyazhito.

OK, but I'm not sure it's a valid rebuttal. The fact is that you follow a mixed calendar which has several serious flaws, and this shows up the error in the argument that the traditional calendar is composed of two separable parts, the Menologion and the Paschalion, and that one part could be changed alone without causing damage to the whole. The various problems of the mixed calendar, e.g. the shortened Apostles' Fast, or the impossibility of Kyriopascha, are evidence that the reformers were wrong in their belief that the Church had only anathematized the Western Paschalion, and not the Western Menologion: the calendar is a seamless whole and, like Christ's garment, cannot be divided willy-nilly.

Contrariwise, if, for the sake of argument, we adopt the new calendarist position that the anathema against the Gregorian Paschalion alone is valid, we then have to admit that reforming the date of Pascha is out of the question, since it has been fixed for all time by the Church, so that our choices only concern the Menologion, i.e. whether we should keep the traditional Menologion or adopt the new one.

I imagine you'll probably come back with the canard that the "revised Julian" is not the Gregorian. Of course, if that's the case, why ever did the original reformers not adopt a revised Paschalion along with the revised Menologion? In fact, we know the reason is that they did not want to incur the anathema against the Gregorian Paschalion, which on their interpretation was valid, even if the anathema against the Gregorian Menologion was not valid. So they implicitly acknowledge that there is no meaningful distinction between the Gregorian and the New Calendar with respect to the Church's anathemas.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:14:00 PM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
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« Reply #2154 on: August 29, 2013, 12:16:27 PM »

I imagine you'll probably come back with the canard that the "revised Julian" is not the Gregorian.
Well, if one doesn't want to deal with the facts, we can't do much for you.
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« Reply #2155 on: August 29, 2013, 12:22:52 PM »

I imagine you'll probably come back with the canard that the "revised Julian" is not the Gregorian.
Well, if one doesn't want to deal with the facts, we can't do much for you.

I already explained the facts earlier, but you are too obtuse to recognize them. The so-called "revised Julian" is a variant of the Gregorian, which can be proven by the fact that it does not share any features with the traditional Julian (other than the features that are common to both the Julian and Gregorian). In particular, it shares its epoch with the Gregorian, not the Julian, so really there is no way a reasonable, unbiased observer can argue that it is merely a variant of the Julian. As a variant of the Gregorian, it falls under the anathemas against the Gregorian.
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« Reply #2156 on: August 29, 2013, 12:26:53 PM »

I imagine you'll probably come back with the canard that the "revised Julian" is not the Gregorian.
Well, if one doesn't want to deal with the facts, we can't do much for you.

I already explained the facts earlier, but you are too obtuse to recognize them.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!! Do you really expect that people are going to change their minds in response to opinions masqueraded as facts by an anonymous yahoo on an Internet discussion forum?
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« Reply #2157 on: August 29, 2013, 12:30:43 PM »

I imagine you'll probably come back with the canard that the "revised Julian" is not the Gregorian.
Well, if one doesn't want to deal with the facts, we can't do much for you.

I already explained the facts earlier, but you are too obtuse to recognize them.
obtuse: inability to look at a clock to see when night and day are equal.
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« Reply #2158 on: August 29, 2013, 12:32:08 PM »



Yes, this is what I believe.

OK, you are entitled to your beliefs, but I don't think the evidence you provided in any way proves or suggests that St Nektarios would have approved of adopting the new calendar.

Quote
Yes, but with St. Nektarios he is not simply venerated privately by Old Calendarists.  There are Old Calendarist churches named after him when no Old Calendarist Synod came together to officially recognize him as a saint, an authority they seem to have deferred to bishops with whom they are not in communion.


I'd have to look at the history of those churches dedicated to him. They may have been founded while members of the New Calendar church, and kept their dedication after they went over to the Old Calendar church. This would make sense particularly if these were former or current HOCNA churches. HOCNA, as you note, believed that the EP was still in the Church up until 1965, and St Nektarios was glorified by them in 1961.

It's interesting to note that the Alexandrian Patriarchate didn't recognize him until 1998.
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« Reply #2159 on: August 29, 2013, 12:33:15 PM »

I imagine you'll probably come back with the canard that the "revised Julian" is not the Gregorian.
Well, if one doesn't want to deal with the facts, we can't do much for you.

I already explained the facts earlier, but you are too obtuse to recognize them.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!! Do you really expect that people are going to change their minds in response to opinions masqueraded as facts by an anonymous yahoo on an Internet discussion forum?

Are you saying that it is not a fact that the revised Julian is more similar to the Gregorian than to the Julian? Or are you going to stick your fingers in your ears over that, too?
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