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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 191110 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1980 on: November 16, 2012, 03:38:15 PM »

aah, the thread has been merged; this is why suddenly there are 44 pages of discussion overnight.
i thought i had gone into a time warp and came out in 2014!
best not think too deeply about calendars or strange things can happen...
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« Reply #1981 on: December 18, 2012, 07:09:32 AM »

You don't think we should sort the calendar issue out?

Taking into account how violently people argue for (or against) Old (or New) Calendar and how severe conflicts have emerged about such petty issues in the past I think we shouldn't. Personally, I like the way my Church handled that issue - each parish is allowed to choose the calendar they want to follow.
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« Reply #1982 on: December 18, 2012, 09:17:46 AM »

Isn't the Mayan calendar going to fix this this week?
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« Reply #1983 on: December 18, 2012, 09:20:14 AM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.
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« Reply #1984 on: December 18, 2012, 09:27:21 AM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.

James
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« Reply #1985 on: December 18, 2012, 09:44:11 AM »

we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide

Why? There is no precedence for that.
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« Reply #1986 on: December 18, 2012, 10:53:45 AM »

Actually, I think more important thing is that all Orthodox (including OO - Armenians) celebrate Pascha in the same time. I don't see any excuse that Finnish Church celebrate as Western Christianity. I've heard that also some parishes in Switzerland have blessing to celebrate the feast of feasts according to Gregorian calendar. Celebration of Pascha is one these things that unite Orthodox people, so why to be disunite so much, as it's going to be in the next year?

The solution made in Polish Church that each parish can choose calendar certainly has some advantages, because e.g in Warsaw it's more difficult to celebrate Nativity according to Old Style than in Podlachia.
But as we're not so big Church, it's a problem for clergy and families from different parts of the country. But the most ridiculous is our metropolitan cathedral that has 2 calendars. I can't imagine how the priests from it can feel.
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« Reply #1987 on: December 18, 2012, 11:21:23 AM »

So can Pascha be moved to the New Calendar (Gregorian) is all Churches agree to it?  Is the only reason it is still calculated under the Julian Calendar is because the spirit of the canon is that they have the formula so that all Churches will celebrate on the same day?
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« Reply #1988 on: December 18, 2012, 11:37:06 AM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.
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« Reply #1989 on: December 18, 2012, 11:46:11 AM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.

Yes, I do. That was actually noted in my original post on the other thread, it's just that Michal chose not to quote that bit here and I saw no particular reason to repeat myself. I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

James
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« Reply #1990 on: December 18, 2012, 12:23:56 PM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.

Yes, I do. That was actually noted in my original post on the other thread, it's just that Michal chose not to quote that bit here and I saw no particular reason to repeat myself. I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

James

IMHO the tendency for those parishes on the new calendar to have modernist tendencies speaks for itself; especially those who fall directly under the ecumenical patriarch. A freemason who bought the patriarchate from the rightly elected bishop, unilaterally forced this on the churches under his jurisdiction. Then he used secular authorities by means of harassment, imprisonment, torture , and murder to force this change upon clergy and laymen alike. Im pretty sure this might be against a Church canon or two... Hey what does that matter? Were more advanced now. This is progress damn it!
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« Reply #1991 on: December 18, 2012, 12:36:33 PM »

I'm ambivalent on the calendar at this point. Very mixed feelings. I didn't think it was a very big deal until I recently moved into an area where my regular church is New Calendar, and I just can't get used to it or shake the feeling that it's off. How can I celebrate the Transfiguration with full joy knowing that there is no one on Tabor that day praying with me commemorating the feast? Same with Dormition and various others. For me I think it's more about all being together rather than the Julian Calendar being something sacred in and of itself. But to know that there is a rift in the commemorations, that the general unity of the prayer of the church and the host of the saints seems interrupted; I just can't get over it. It's probably just my problem, I guess...
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« Reply #1992 on: December 18, 2012, 12:41:10 PM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.

Yes, I do. That was actually noted in my original post on the other thread, it's just that Michal chose not to quote that bit here and I saw no particular reason to repeat myself. I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

James

IMHO the tendency for those parishes on the new calendar to have modernist tendencies speaks for itself; especially those who fall directly under the ecumenical patriarch. A freemason who bought the patriarchate from the rightly elected bishop, unilaterally forced this on the churches under his jurisdiction. Then he used secular authorities by means of harassment, imprisonment, torture , and murder to force this change upon clergy and laymen alike. Im pretty sure this might be against a Church canon or two... Hey what does that matter? Were more advanced now. This is progress damn it!

Before I even think of answering this properly I'd need to know what you mean by 'modernist tendencies'. Our parish is New Calendar as was my last and I can't recall anything that I'd describe as modernist. If anything I've seen the reverse in Romanian parishes over the last decade, with a movement away from such things as clean shaven priests, women with uncovered heads, kneeling on Sundays etc. As this is undoubtedly my experience I'm unconvinced that New Calendar goes hand in hand with rampant 'modernism'. I certainly can't see anything inherently wrong in the New Calendar and I do see the rationale for correcting the Julian, though I'm not entirely convinced that the latter is actually necessary as such. I agree with you regarding the way in which the New Calendar was introduced but I think that's about all. Most of the criticisms of 'New Calendar' practices I see seem to verge on hysteria and certainly bear little resemblance to anything I've ever experienced. I'm pretty sure errors in both faith and practice are pretty much independent of the calendar a parish uses.

James
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« Reply #1993 on: December 18, 2012, 12:43:21 PM »

I'm ambivalent on the calendar at this point. Very mixed feelings. I didn't think it was a very big deal until I recently moved into an area where my regular church is New Calendar, and I just can't get used to it or shake the feeling that it's off. How can I celebrate the Transfiguration with full joy knowing that there is no one on Tabor that day praying with me commemorating the feast? Same with Dormition and various others. For me I think it's more about all being together rather than the Julian Calendar being something sacred in and of itself. But to know that there is a rift in the commemorations, that the general unity of the prayer of the church and the host of the saints seems interrupted; I just can't get over it. It's probably just my problem, I guess...

Newsflash, due to a little something called time-zones, you weren't gonna celebrate it at the same time anyway.
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« Reply #1994 on: December 18, 2012, 12:46:24 PM »

Newsflash, due to a little something called time-zones, you weren't gonna celebrate it at the same time anyway.

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« Reply #1995 on: December 18, 2012, 01:00:42 PM »

NEWSFLASH: Stop being an SLASH.

Are you talking to the mirror again?
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« Reply #1996 on: December 18, 2012, 01:04:46 PM »

Newsflash, due to a little something called time-zones, you weren't gonna celebrate it at the same time anyway.

NEWSFLASH: Stop being an SLASH.

Just pointing out the absurdity of "missing" something that never existed to begin with.

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« Reply #1997 on: December 18, 2012, 01:12:55 PM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.

Yes, I do. That was actually noted in my original post on the other thread, it's just that Michal chose not to quote that bit here and I saw no particular reason to repeat myself. I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

James

IMHO the tendency for those parishes on the new calendar to have modernist tendencies speaks for itself; especially those who fall directly under the ecumenical patriarch. A freemason who bought the patriarchate from the rightly elected bishop, unilaterally forced this on the churches under his jurisdiction. Then he used secular authorities by means of harassment, imprisonment, torture , and murder to force this change upon clergy and laymen alike. Im pretty sure this might be against a Church canon or two... Hey what does that matter? Were more advanced now. This is progress damn it!

THIS IS THE NEW POST,  (I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHY IT SHOWS UP WITHIN THE QUOTES).-Basil 320


I'm assuming you are referring to His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch Meletios IV of Constantinople as having "forced" the revised Julian Calendar upon those within his jurisdiction.  YOU ARE WRONG in that regard.  His All Holiness did convene the Pan Orthodox Congress of 1923, of representatives of some of the Holy Orthodox Churches which recommended a calendar change TO THE HOLY ORTHODOX CHURCHES, but did not impose a change on anyone.  The congress itself acknowledged that consensus would have to be achieved among the Holy Orthodox Churches.  It was the government of Greece which desired to celebrate Greek Independence Day, March 25th, together with the Feast of the Annunciation to the Theotokos that forced the Primate of the Church of Greece, His Beatitude Archbishop Chrysostomos, to encourage the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which was dependent financially upon the Greek government to made the change, which it did.  Patriarch Meletios had resigned the Ecumenical Throne months earlier.

Quoting tags corrected - MK
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« Reply #1998 on: December 18, 2012, 01:18:46 PM »

The /quote tag in the first quote isn't working. It says [/qote]. Fixing that should do the trick.
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« Reply #1999 on: December 18, 2012, 01:41:56 PM »

Just pointing out the absurdity of "missing" something that never existed to begin with.

There's nothing profound about what you pointed out. If you're telling me that there's nothing significant about Christians from all over the world praying in unity commemorating events and holy people with one voice as the sun rises in every nation and people, then it sounds like you're the one missing something. Some of us have a vision of humanity where all the cosmos sings with one priestly voice.
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« Reply #2000 on: December 18, 2012, 01:45:15 PM »

I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

By "absurd current situation" do you mean existence of multiple calendars or mixing New Calendar Menaion and Old Calendar Triodion?

There's nothing profound about what you pointed out. If you're telling me that there's nothing significant about Christians from all over the world praying in unity commemorating events and holy people with one voice as the sun rises in every nation and people, then it sounds like you're the one missing something. Some of us have a vision of humanity where all the cosmos sings with one priestly voice.

In the IV century there were about a dozen of dates people celebrated Christmass. How do you think about that? Were they wrong?
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« Reply #2001 on: December 18, 2012, 01:58:30 PM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.

Yes, I do. That was actually noted in my original post on the other thread, it's just that Michal chose not to quote that bit here and I saw no particular reason to repeat myself. I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

James

IMHO the tendency for those parishes on the new calendar to have modernist tendencies speaks for itself; especially those who fall directly under the ecumenical patriarch. A freemason who bought the patriarchate from the rightly elected bishop, unilaterally forced this on the churches under his jurisdiction. Then he used secular authorities by means of harassment, imprisonment, torture , and murder to force this change upon clergy and laymen alike. Im pretty sure this might be against a Church canon or two... Hey what does that matter? Were more advanced now. This is progress damn it!

My Church is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and we are on the Old Calendar...and aren't in any hurry to change.
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« Reply #2002 on: December 18, 2012, 06:00:47 PM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.

Yes, I do. That was actually noted in my original post on the other thread, it's just that Michal chose not to quote that bit here and I saw no particular reason to repeat myself. I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

James

IMHO the tendency for those parishes on the new calendar to have modernist tendencies speaks for itself; especially those who fall directly under the ecumenical patriarch. A freemason who bought the patriarchate from the rightly elected bishop, unilaterally forced this on the churches under his jurisdiction. Then he used secular authorities by means of harassment, imprisonment, torture , and murder to force this change upon clergy and laymen alike. Im pretty sure this might be against a Church canon or two... Hey what does that matter? Were more advanced now. This is progress damn it!

What patriarch are you accusing of these things?
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« Reply #2003 on: December 19, 2012, 04:24:06 AM »

I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

By "absurd current situation" do you mean existence of multiple calendars or mixing New Calendar Menaion and Old Calendar Triodion?
It's the latter that I find absurd, though I also think that the Church using a single Calendar would definitely be desirable. Evidently the early Church also thought this or they'd never have set a common date for Easter the way they did either.

James
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« Reply #2004 on: December 19, 2012, 03:21:08 PM »

It's the latter that I find absurd, though I also think that the Church using a single Calendar would definitely be desirable. Evidently the early Church also thought this or they'd never have set a common date for Easter the way they did either.

They did not set that for other feasts.
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« Reply #2005 on: December 20, 2012, 04:45:26 AM »

It's the latter that I find absurd, though I also think that the Church using a single Calendar would definitely be desirable. Evidently the early Church also thought this or they'd never have set a common date for Easter the way they did either.

They did not set that for other feasts.

What feasts are you thinking about and by which time? I can't think of any that weren't on common dates when we all adhered to the Old Calendar for both fixed and moveable feasts, can you? I don't doubt that it took a long time, but surely you aren't actually arguing that there's some qualitative difference between the fixed and moveable feasts that means we should standardise one set and not the other?

James
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« Reply #2006 on: December 20, 2012, 05:53:37 AM »

What feasts are you thinking about and by which time? I can't think of any that weren't on common dates when we all adhered to the Old Calendar for both fixed and moveable feasts, can you?

When was that? VIIIth century?

Because Armenian Church who separated itself from the EOxy (or contrarywise) in VIth / VIIth century (depends on what date do you prefer) doesn't celebrate Christmas on Dec 25 (what is more, it doesn't celebrate Christmas per se at all).


Quote
I don't doubt that it took a long time, but surely you aren't actually arguing that there's some qualitative difference between the fixed and moveable feasts that means we should standardise one set and not the other?

There is a qualitative difference between Pascha and other feasts.
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« Reply #2007 on: December 20, 2012, 08:22:27 AM »

What feasts are you thinking about and by which time? I can't think of any that weren't on common dates when we all adhered to the Old Calendar for both fixed and moveable feasts, can you?

When was that? VIIIth century?

Because Armenian Church who separated itself from the EOxy (or contrarywise) in VIth / VIIth century (depends on what date do you prefer) doesn't celebrate Christmas on Dec 25 (what is more, it doesn't celebrate Christmas per se at all).
I'm not sure that holding the single exception (that's the only one I could think of too) of Armenian Christmas up really supports your case particularly well. It certainly doesn't alter what I said - 7th to 20th century is quite long enough with common dates for feasts to support supposing it to be the normative state of the Church.

Quote
Quote
I don't doubt that it took a long time, but surely you aren't actually arguing that there's some qualitative difference between the fixed and moveable feasts that means we should standardise one set and not the other?

There is a qualitative difference between Pascha and other feasts.
All the feasts are different. My question was whether that difference was such that it means we should celebrate common dates for the moveable set but different ones for the fixed set. I can't see such a qualitative difference between the fixed and moveable feasts, can you? Your answer, to the effect that Easter is the greatest feast, is nothing more than skirting the question.

James

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« Reply #2008 on: December 20, 2012, 01:20:46 PM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.

Yes, I do. That was actually noted in my original post on the other thread, it's just that Michal chose not to quote that bit here and I saw no particular reason to repeat myself. I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

James

IMHO the tendency for those parishes on the new calendar to have modernist tendencies speaks for itself; especially those who fall directly under the ecumenical patriarch. A freemason who bought the patriarchate from the rightly elected bishop, unilaterally forced this on the churches under his jurisdiction. Then he used secular authorities by means of harassment, imprisonment, torture , and murder to force this change upon clergy and laymen alike. Im pretty sure this might be against a Church canon or two... Hey what does that matter? Were more advanced now. This is progress damn it!

What patriarch are you accusing of these things?

Various ones but of course the initial implementation of the calendar by Mataxicus. More like the chair of the of the pseudo patriarchate.
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« Reply #2009 on: December 20, 2012, 08:02:21 PM »

As with all things in Orthodoxy, I think the church should have reached a consensus about the calendar before any changes were initiated; we should be celebrating the same services of the day world wide.  I criticize the government of Greece for forcing the matter that has resulted in this mess we been experiencing the past 88 years. I don't have a strong opinion about either calendar; I just think the church should be celebrating and commemorating together.  "Some feast while others fast," as one of the Old Calendar bishops has said.  I could accept allowing for exceptions within each church, but each of the Holy Orthodox Churches should be of one mind about the church's calendar.

That's exactly my opinion also. I don't care how we sort it out but we ought to do so - and whatever we end up with must not continue to result in the absurdity of fasts that end before they begin.
You do realize that that has nothing to do with the New Calendar per se? The non-existence of the Apostles Fast that happens every so often for New Calendar churches is because we follow the New Calendar menologion while still following the Old Calendar paschalion. If we were to synchronize even the paschalion with the New Calendar, then we would always have a significant Apostles Fast.

Yes, I do. That was actually noted in my original post on the other thread, it's just that Michal chose not to quote that bit here and I saw no particular reason to repeat myself. I was flagging it up as an absurdity of the status quo which needs fixing, not laying the blame for it at the door of the New Calendar. I'd be perfectly happy if we all went onto the New Calendar (which, by the way, is not actually quite the same as the Gregorian, Choy, they'll eventually drift apart) with a New Paschalion. I'd have no issue with everyone shifting to the Revised Julian Calendar in toto, nor with everyone reverting to the old Julian Calendar but the current situation is simply absurd.

James

IMHO the tendency for those parishes on the new calendar to have modernist tendencies speaks for itself; especially those who fall directly under the ecumenical patriarch. A freemason who bought the patriarchate from the rightly elected bishop, unilaterally forced this on the churches under his jurisdiction. Then he used secular authorities by means of harassment, imprisonment, torture , and murder to force this change upon clergy and laymen alike. Im pretty sure this might be against a Church canon or two... Hey what does that matter? Were more advanced now. This is progress damn it!

What patriarch are you accusing of these things?

Various ones but of course the initial implementation of the calendar by Mataxicus. More like the chair of the of the pseudo patriarchate.

By writing "Metaxicus" (What?) I'm assuming you are referring to His All Holiness Patriarch Meletios IV (Metaxakis), who was the Ecumenical Patriarch proceeding the conversion to the Revised Julian Calendar.  I'm not going to bother noting who was Ecumenical Patriarch at the time of the conversion, because I've written about it twice already, above, but it was not Patriarch Meletios.
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« Reply #2010 on: December 20, 2012, 09:33:48 PM »

So can Pascha be moved to the New Calendar (Gregorian) is all Churches agree to it?  Is the only reason it is still calculated under the Julian Calendar is because the spirit of the canon is that they have the formula so that all Churches will celebrate on the same day?

The formula works in either secular calendar. The reason we are using the Julian is because the new calendar churches wanted to celebrate at least Pascha with those churches (in the majority BTW) that refused to used the Revised Julian.
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« Reply #2011 on: December 20, 2012, 10:11:45 PM »

So can Pascha be moved to the New Calendar (Gregorian) is all Churches agree to it?  Is the only reason it is still calculated under the Julian Calendar is because the spirit of the canon is that they have the formula so that all Churches will celebrate on the same day?

The formula works in either secular calendar. The reason we are using the Julian is because the new calendar churches wanted to celebrate at least Pascha with those churches (in the majority BTW) that refused to used the Revised Julian.

Umm, I'm nor sure, the Passover may not have necessarily concluded using the Gregorian calendar computation, or is it the lunar cycles used by the Orthodox Church that ensure that Passover has concluded prior to the first Sunday, following the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox.


I've also been told by a hierarch that the Orthodox Paschal date using the Julian Calendar computation is also due to an interest in celebrating Pascha at the same time as the Church of Jerusalem and the manifestation of the Holy Fire.
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« Reply #2012 on: December 20, 2012, 10:29:26 PM »

So can Pascha be moved to the New Calendar (Gregorian) is all Churches agree to it?  Is the only reason it is still calculated under the Julian Calendar is because the spirit of the canon is that they have the formula so that all Churches will celebrate on the same day?

The formula works in either secular calendar. The reason we are using the Julian is because the new calendar churches wanted to celebrate at least Pascha with those churches (in the majority BTW) that refused to used the Revised Julian.

Umm, I'm nor sure, the Passover may not have necessarily concluded using the Gregorian calendar computation, or is it the lunar cycles used by the Orthodox Church that ensure that Passover has concluded prior to the first Sunday, following the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox.
Who says we have to wait until after the Jews celebrate their Passover?
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« Reply #2013 on: December 21, 2012, 12:50:49 AM »

Zonaras the lawyer, and the consensus of the church.
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« Reply #2014 on: December 21, 2012, 01:31:04 AM »

Zonaras the lawyer, and the consensus of the church.
Is it possible that Zonaras the lawyer could be wrong and that the "consensus" of the Church--if such even exists on this matter--could have been misled?
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« Reply #2015 on: December 21, 2012, 01:42:03 AM »

Zonaras the lawyer, and the consensus of the church.
Is it possible that Zonaras the lawyer could be wrong and that the "consensus" of the Church--if such even exists on this matter--could have been misled?

This is indeed a bold statement to make, even for you, PtA.  Angry
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« Reply #2016 on: December 21, 2012, 02:49:26 AM »

Zonaras the lawyer, and the consensus of the church.
Is it possible that Zonaras the lawyer could be wrong and that the "consensus" of the Church--if such even exists on this matter--could have been misled?

This is indeed a bold statement to make, even for you, PtA.  Angry
All I'm doing is asking for proof of a tradition that flies in the face of the Paschal rules established by Nicea I. How is that such a bold statement to make, especially considering the many times we've discussed this issue on this forum already?
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« Reply #2017 on: December 21, 2012, 02:54:35 AM »

Zonaras the lawyer, and the consensus of the church.
Is it possible that Zonaras the lawyer could be wrong and that the "consensus" of the Church--if such even exists on this matter--could have been misled?

This is indeed a bold statement to make, even for you, PtA.  Angry
All I'm doing is asking for proof of a tradition that flies in the face of the Paschal rules established by Nicea I. How is that such a bold statement to make, especially considering the many times we've discussed this issue on this forum already?

Show us any instance of a post-Nicea Orthodox Pascha falling before the Jewish Passover. It's certainly never happened in my Orthodox lifetime, and I've been Orthodox for much longer than you've been alive.
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« Reply #2018 on: December 21, 2012, 03:04:48 AM »

Zonaras the lawyer, and the consensus of the church.
Is it possible that Zonaras the lawyer could be wrong and that the "consensus" of the Church--if such even exists on this matter--could have been misled?

This is indeed a bold statement to make, even for you, PtA.  Angry
All I'm doing is asking for proof of a tradition that flies in the face of the Paschal rules established by Nicea I. How is that such a bold statement to make, especially considering the many times we've discussed this issue on this forum already?

Show us any instance of a post-Nicea Orthodox Pascha falling before the Jewish Passover.
That's neither proof for nor against the assertion you see in my question to Basil. The "fact" that we've never celebrated Pascha before the Jewish Passover, if true, does not prove that we are not permitted to celebrate Pascha before the Jewish Passover. To use an analogy, I am permitted to buy a handgun and go target shooting with it if I want, but I have never exercised this freedom. Does the fact that I've never bought a gun mean I have not the freedom to do so? No, it just means that I've never bought a gun.

If you want to prove that we are not permitted to celebrate Pascha before the Jews, then the burden is on you to prove this from the Paschal mandate of the First Ecumenical Council, where the formula for determining the date of Pascha was defined.
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« Reply #2019 on: December 21, 2012, 03:37:20 AM »

In written correspondence among the hierarchs prior to the convening of the 1st Ecumenical Synod, there was discussion about "not celebrating with the Jews."  You know that other than "the first Sunday," the formula for determining the dates of Passover, is the same as that for Pascha.
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« Reply #2020 on: December 21, 2012, 03:38:10 AM »

Zonaras the lawyer, and the consensus of the church.
Is it possible that Zonaras the lawyer could be wrong and that the "consensus" of the Church--if such even exists on this matter--could have been misled?

No.
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« Reply #2021 on: December 21, 2012, 07:03:13 AM »

Zonaras the lawyer, and the consensus of the church.
Is it possible that Zonaras the lawyer could be wrong and that the "consensus" of the Church--if such even exists on this matter--could have been misled?

No.
You can give a better argument than that. You and I both know that "not with the Jews" does not necessarily mean "after the Jews".
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« Reply #2022 on: December 21, 2012, 08:03:04 AM »

So can Pascha be moved to the New Calendar (Gregorian) is all Churches agree to it?  Is the only reason it is still calculated under the Julian Calendar is because the spirit of the canon is that they have the formula so that all Churches will celebrate on the same day?

The formula works in either secular calendar. The reason we are using the Julian is because the new calendar churches wanted to celebrate at least Pascha with those churches (in the majority BTW) that refused to used the Revised Julian.

Umm, I'm nor sure, the Passover may not have necessarily concluded using the Gregorian calendar computation, or is it the lunar cycles used by the Orthodox Church that ensure that Passover has concluded prior to the first Sunday, following the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox.


I've also been told by a hierarch that the Orthodox Paschal date using the Julian Calendar computation is also due to an interest in celebrating Pascha at the same time as the Church of Jerusalem and the manifestation of the Holy Fire.

I was of course referring to the oldest, ecumenical formula. There is no doubt that the Orthodox Church used permutations afterwards, such as after the conclusion of Passover, etc.
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« Reply #2023 on: December 21, 2012, 11:16:18 AM »

In written correspondence among the hierarchs prior to the convening of the 1st Ecumenical Synod, there was discussion about "not celebrating with the Jews."  You know that other than "the first Sunday," the formula for determining the dates of Passover, is the same as that for Pascha.
So are you saying that the Jews - because of how they determine the date of Passover - are in charge of when we celebrate Pascha? That would seem rather odd.
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« Reply #2024 on: December 21, 2012, 12:48:07 PM »

No, that's not what I said.  I simply noted what is the Jewish formula for computation of Passover and thus, why the Orthodox computation for the date of Pascha would need to wait for the conclusion of Passover.
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