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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 203057 times) Average Rating: 0
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #1935 on: July 22, 2012, 05:29:39 AM »

...What is your criteria for mattering?

Is it essential for salvation? No. I doubt God cares what calendar we use and I doubt that our faith is really in any danger because of a mere calendar. Does it really matter what day we celebrate the feasts, fasts and special events on? No. But what matters is that we do them anyway regardless of when. I doubt that God is going to overlook all of our faith, works, piety and devotion just because we are doing it a week early or a week late. Doesn't God transcend time and warn against petty issues? Anyone who would commit schism over a calendar is pretty hyperdox along with anyone willing to issue anathema against someone just because they prefer the old calendar.

It's not about calendar preference but submission to the Church of Christ.
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« Reply #1936 on: July 22, 2012, 10:55:01 AM »

...What is your criteria for mattering?

Is it essential for salvation? No. I doubt God cares what calendar we use and I doubt that our faith is really in any danger because of a mere calendar.
I really think it's a lot more important than that.

Does it really matter what day we celebrate the feasts, fasts and special events on? No.
Actually, yes it does. For instance, we are not permitted to celebrate Pascha in October; rather, the Fathers at Nicea stated that we are to celebrate Pascha on the Sunday following the first full moon after the (Northern Hemisphere) spring equinox. We also have a long-standing Tradition of celebrating our Lord's nativity on December 25 and Annunciation on March 25. Such traditions cannot be discarded so easily just because you don't think dates matter.

But what matters is that we do them anyway regardless of when.
See what I said above.

I doubt that God is going to overlook all of our faith, works, piety and devotion just because we are doing it a week early or a week late. Doesn't God transcend time and warn against petty issues?
I follow the New Calendar, yet I don't presume to know so much as to call the calendar a petty issue.

Anyone who would commit schism over a calendar is pretty hyperdox
And you know the hearts of men well enough to be able to make such blanket judgments as this?

along with anyone willing to issue anathema against someone just because they prefer the old calendar.
As akimori makoto said above, it's not about mere calendar preference. It's about submission to the Church of Christ, and, as far as Old Calendarists are concerned, we New Calendarists have departed from that Church of Christ.

It's okay to disagree with those who consider the calendar a dogmatic issue and even to call their Orthodoxy into question, just as they do ours. What's not okay is for you to dismiss our opponents with such uninformed puerile judgments as you have made.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 10:57:01 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1937 on: July 22, 2012, 11:33:50 AM »

...What is your criteria for mattering?

Is it essential for salvation? No. I doubt God cares what calendar we use and I doubt that our faith is really in any danger because of a mere calendar. Does it really matter what day we celebrate the feasts, fasts and special events on? No. But what matters is that we do them anyway regardless of when. I doubt that God is going to overlook all of our faith, works, piety and devotion just because we are doing it a week early or a week late. Doesn't God transcend time and warn against petty issues? Anyone who would commit schism over a calendar is pretty hyperdox along with anyone willing to issue anathema against someone just because they prefer the old calendar.

BTW: I was wondering what Saint Augustine you are asking to pray for you? And, what does "hyperdox" mean?
Also: is it okay to change anything not essential to salvation? And, if so, what is essential to salvation? Do we even need the liturgy? After all I could get a martyrdom and go to heaven without a liturgy right?; I find other examples of people going to heaven who likely did not go to a liturgy. Furthermore, I would like to point out that, just because something is ill advised, does not mean it will necessarily mean that it leads to Gehenna  

Other thoughts, is it okay if we all just celebrate your birthday at any time we want? Furthermore if its really not important can we all just have our own calendar that we follow?

Final question: just how unimportant are the many possible things we do, that are not (and possible not -- because I make no judgment just ask the question) essential to salvation? are the many things we do, like praying, going to liturgy, making the sign of the cross, helpful?

I totally agree with the post by PeterTheAleut above me.
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« Reply #1938 on: July 22, 2012, 02:36:42 PM »


I really think it's a lot more important than that.

I don't seem why. It just seems like a trivial petty issue

Actually, yes it does. For instance, we are not permitted to celebrate Pascha in October; rather, the Fathers at Nicea stated that we are to celebrate Pascha on the Sunday following the first full moon after the (Northern Hemisphere) spring equinox. We also have a long-standing Tradition of celebrating our Lord's nativity on December 25 and Annunciation on March 25. Such traditions cannot be discarded so easily just because you don't think dates matter.

So? The Fathers and the Councils also forbid us from seeing a Jewish doctor or practicing any sexual position other than the Missionary but you do not see us following those to the letter. Why should the calendar be any different? The decisions of these councils were made for men; not men for the councils.

Quote
I follow the New Calendar, yet I don't presume to know so much as to call the calendar a petty issue.

I probably don't. But I know enough that when you look at it from the perspective of an average person, it seems absurd and almost silly for people to make it such a big deal.

Quote
And you know the hearts of men well enough to be able to make such blanket judgments as this?

No

Quote
aid above, it's not about mere calendar preference. It's about submission to the Church of Christ

If that is the case, then why don't I commit schism because none of you submit to the Church of Christ by seeing Jewish doctors and having non-Missionary position sex? This whole issue sounds like something the Pharisees would bring up in the New Testament only to have Jesus condemn them. They followed the law to the letter and look what happened to them; they screwed up and only cared about the exteriors. Likewise, I bet if the Fathers knew how much trouble their decisions about the calendars would cause, they would probably have never even mentioned that stupid old calendar.

Quote
It's okay to disagree with those who consider the calendar a dogmatic issue and even to call their Orthodoxy into question, just as they do ours. What's not okay is for you to dismiss our opponents with such uninformed puerile judgments as you have made.

I admit I know little to nothing about this issue. But just looking at it, it seems really odd and petty to me.

I was wondering what Saint Augustine you are asking to pray for you?

St. Augustine of Hippo; my patron

Quote
And, what does "hyperdox" mean?

See here

Quote
Also: is it okay to change anything not essential to salvation?

Yes. Hence the distinction between big 'T' Tradition and small tradition.

Quote
And, if so, what is essential to salvation?

Doctrine and Sacraments; as long as we are not changing our theology or the Sacraments in anyway, I don't see how it matters if we change something smaller like a calendar. I personally don't care which calendar we use.
 
Quote
Do we even need the liturgy?

Of course; it's Sacramental

Quote
After all I could get a martyrdom and go to heaven without a liturgy right?

Salvation isn't just about going to Heaven; it's Theosis

Quote
I find other examples of people going to heaven who likely did not go to a liturgy.

See above

Quote
Furthermore, I would like to point out that, just because something is ill advised, does not mean it will necessarily mean that it leads to Gehenna

Then why are you so afraid to adopt the new Calendar?

Quote
Other thoughts, is it okay if we all just celebrate your birthday at any time we want?

Yes. In fact, I have celebrated my birthday a couple days early or later depending on what was going on that week.

Quote
Furthermore if its really not important can we all just have our own calendar that we follow?

That's up to our Bishop

Quote
Final question: just how unimportant are the many possible things we do, that are not (and possible not -- because I make no judgment just ask the question) essential to salvation? are the many things we do, like praying, going to liturgy, making the sign of the cross, helpful?

They are all helpful, but none of the things mentioned are essential for salvation except for prayer and the liturgy because they are Sacramental. If the Church wants to change how we make the sign of the Cross or what days we celebrate something on, I honestly don't care. I don't think it is really going to condemn us to Gehenna.
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« Reply #1939 on: July 22, 2012, 03:10:16 PM »


I really think it's a lot more important than that.

I don't seem why. It just seems like a trivial petty issue
Quite wrong. Calendars have been in place since Creation to help us relate to the days and seasons as God created them. You and I would agree that creating schism over the details of a humanly constructed calendar is wrong, but the discussion on how to go about creating that calendar is far from "a trivial petty issue".


Quote

If that is the case, then why don't I commit schism because none of you submit to the Church of Christ by seeing Jewish doctors and having non-Missionary position sex?
How hold on a minute here! I haven't seen (knowingly) a Jewish doctor since becoming Orthodox (admittedly not planned as such, but still true); non-Missionary position sex - you know this just exactly how?

There's more, but I'm not going to continue. The arrogance that is coming across in this post needs to be dealt with. Please take it up with your priest.
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« Reply #1940 on: July 22, 2012, 03:33:11 PM »

Quote from: genesisone
You and I would agree that creating schism over the details of a humanly constructed calendar is wrong[...]

It may sound odd, but,  I also agree that creating schism over the church calendar is wrong; although, I suspect we disagree over who has created the schism.  

I also would like to know more about the Jewish doctor, is it, ordinance, dogma, or canon? issue you mentioned.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 03:36:45 PM by вєликаго » Logged

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« Reply #1941 on: July 22, 2012, 03:48:56 PM »


I really think it's a lot more important than that.

I don't seem why. It just seems like a trivial petty issue
Thank you for admitting that this is merely your own opinion, your own perception. Now we can proceed from here to debate what your opinion is really worth? In the meantime, please don't diminish the serious concerns of others merely because you don't see in your limited point of view how they're important.

Actually, yes it does. For instance, we are not permitted to celebrate Pascha in October; rather, the Fathers at Nicea stated that we are to celebrate Pascha on the Sunday following the first full moon after the (Northern Hemisphere) spring equinox. We also have a long-standing Tradition of celebrating our Lord's nativity on December 25 and Annunciation on March 25. Such traditions cannot be discarded so easily just because you don't think dates matter.

So? The Fathers and the Councils also forbid us from seeing a Jewish doctor or practicing any sexual position other than the Missionary but you do not see us following those to the letter. Why should the calendar be any different? The decisions of these councils were made for men; not men for the councils.
That's a ridiculous argument! The calendar regulates the communal worship of the Church to ensure that all Orthodox Christians celebrate our Lord's Pascha and all the other feasts together as one family, whereas the examples you cite regulate nothing more than one's own private relations with others.

Quote
I follow the New Calendar, yet I don't presume to know so much as to call the calendar a petty issue.

I probably don't. But I know enough that when you look at it from the perspective of an average person, it seems absurd and almost silly for people to make it such a big deal.
Yes, the average person is not an Orthodox Christian and couldn't care less what we believe and thinks we're crazy to do the things we do. What I'm asking you to do is to see things as a mature Orthodox Christian sees them.

Quote
And you know the hearts of men well enough to be able to make such blanket judgments as this?

No
Thanks for admitting that. Does that mean you'll stop judging the hearts of men until you do know them?

Quote
aid above, it's not about mere calendar preference. It's about submission to the Church of Christ

If that is the case, then why don't I commit schism because none of you submit to the Church of Christ by seeing Jewish doctors and having non-Missionary position sex? This whole issue sounds like something the Pharisees would bring up in the New Testament only to have Jesus condemn them. They followed the law to the letter and look what happened to them; they screwed up and only cared about the exteriors. Likewise, I bet if the Fathers knew how much trouble their decisions about the calendars would cause, they would probably have never even mentioned that stupid old calendar.
Why don't you spend a few years actually learning the Orthodox faith before you start sounding off like this and revealing your ignorance? Maybe also acquire enough knowledge of the Gospel to recognize that even Jesus was faithful in celebrating the Passover and the other feasts of the Jews at the times they were to be celebrated. Yes, even Jesus followed the festal calendar of His people.

Quote
It's okay to disagree with those who consider the calendar a dogmatic issue and even to call their Orthodoxy into question, just as they do ours. What's not okay is for you to dismiss our opponents with such uninformed puerile judgments as you have made.

I admit I know little to nothing about this issue. But just looking at it, it seems really odd and petty to me.
Knowing nothing about the issue, you should probably then keep silent so you can study the issue.

I was wondering what Saint Augustine you are asking to pray for you?

St. Augustine of Hippo; my patron

Quote
And, what does "hyperdox" mean?

See here

Quote
Also: is it okay to change anything not essential to salvation?

Yes. Hence the distinction between big 'T' Tradition and small tradition.
A distinction that has no explicit foundation in Tradition.

Quote
And, if so, what is essential to salvation?

Doctrine and Sacraments; as long as we are not changing our theology or the Sacraments in anyway, I don't see how it matters if we change something smaller like a calendar. I personally don't care which calendar we use.
 
Quote
Do we even need the liturgy?

Of course; it's Sacramental

Quote
After all I could get a martyrdom and go to heaven without a liturgy right?

Salvation isn't just about going to Heaven; it's Theosis

Quote
I find other examples of people going to heaven who likely did not go to a liturgy.

See above

Quote
Furthermore, I would like to point out that, just because something is ill advised, does not mean it will necessarily mean that it leads to Gehenna

Then why are you so afraid to adopt the new Calendar?
Now you're contradicting yourself, James. If it doesn't matter what calendar he uses, doesn't it then follow that he can use whatever calendar he wants? Why, then, do you insist that he start following the New Calendar?

Quote
Other thoughts, is it okay if we all just celebrate your birthday at any time we want?

Yes. In fact, I have celebrated my birthday a couple days early or later depending on what was going on that week.
But is it okay to celebrate your birthday three months and four days late?

Quote
Furthermore if its really not important can we all just have our own calendar that we follow?

That's up to our Bishop

Quote
Final question: just how unimportant are the many possible things we do, that are not (and possible not -- because I make no judgment just ask the question) essential to salvation? are the many things we do, like praying, going to liturgy, making the sign of the cross, helpful?

They are all helpful, but none of the things mentioned are essential for salvation except for prayer and the liturgy because they are Sacramental. If the Church wants to change how we make the sign of the Cross or what days we celebrate something on, I honestly don't care. I don't think it is really going to condemn us to Gehenna.
Orthodoxy, however, is not a minimalist faith that seeks to pare down the faith to only the absolute essentials. Nor is it a faith that teaches that salvation is solely an individual pursuit. If that's the kind of life you want to live, then go back to being a Protestant. We are saved together as the Church, however, and the calendar we use supports that by making sure the Church celebrates its defining feasts together as one divine-human family, just as Jesus celebrated the Jewish feasts with His family.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 09:18:58 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1942 on: July 22, 2012, 04:38:59 PM »


You got me. I apologize for my ignorance. I should study this more before I start making statements about it. Consider what I say next just honest questions and thoughts.

Quote
That's a ridiculous argument! The calendar regulates the communal worship of the Church to ensure that all Orthodox Christians celebrate our Lord's Pascha and all the other feasts together as one family, whereas the examples you cite regulate nothing more than one's own private relations with others.

Well if that is the case, then why are some of us committing schisms and dropping anathemas against people because of the calendar? If the only issue is about us not worshipping together, then why doesn't one side just give in so that we could all worship on the same days? Instead, it seems like some are making some big doctrinal thing out of this.

Quote
I follow the New Calendar, yet I don't presume to know so much as to call the calendar a petty issue.

I probably don't. But I know enough that when you look at it from the perspective of an average person, it

Quote
Thanks for admitting that. Does that mean you'll stop judging the hearts of men until you do know them?

Probably not entirely, but I can at least try.

Quote
A distinction that has no explicit foundation in Tradition.

My Priest told me there is

Quote
Now you're contradicting yourself, James. If it doesn't matter what calendar he uses, doesn't it then follow that he can use whatever calendar he wants? Why, then, do you insist that he start following the New Calendar?

I'm not trying to insist he use the new calendar or shove some calendar ideal on him. I'm just questioning his own logic. If he really thinks that, then why is he making the calendar such a big deal, as it seems in my uneducated opinion that many people are? Why can't one side just give in so that we have unity?

Quote
...We are saved together as the Church, however, and the calendar we use supports that by making sure the Church celebrates its defining feasts together as one divine-human family, just as Jesus celebrated the Jewish feasts with His family.

Then this brings me back to my original question. Why do people act like there is some big doctrinal issue over which calendar we use? Why can't one side give in just so that we have unity and can all celebrate together?
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« Reply #1943 on: July 22, 2012, 05:37:31 PM »

Quote from: genesisone
You and I would agree that creating schism over the details of a humanly constructed calendar is wrong[...]

It may sound odd, but,  I also agree that creating schism over the church calendar is wrong; although, I suspect we disagree over who has created the schism.  

I also would like to know more about the Jewish doctor, is it, ordinance, dogma, or canon? issue you mentioned.
There is a canon somewhere. But since I'm not the one who introduced it into the discussion, I'll let JamesR track it down and give details. (Of course, if you're really adventurous, you can do a search on this site - it has come up several times  Cheesy)

As for who created the calendar schism, I think my point about the discussion being an important one should show my position. You and I might indeed come up with a solution over coffee, though we're not likely to convince too many bishops Tongue!
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« Reply #1944 on: July 22, 2012, 05:42:59 PM »


You got me. I apologize for my ignorance. I should study this more before I start making statements about it. Consider what I say next just honest questions and thoughts.

Quote
That's a ridiculous argument! The calendar regulates the communal worship of the Church to ensure that all Orthodox Christians celebrate our Lord's Pascha and all the other feasts together as one family, whereas the examples you cite regulate nothing more than one's own private relations with others.

Well if that is the case, then why are some of us committing schisms and dropping anathemas against people because of the calendar? If the only issue is about us not worshipping together, then why doesn't one side just give in so that we could all worship on the same days? Instead, it seems like some are making some big doctrinal thing out of this.
That, I think, is a good question. I've never understood why some elevate the "Old" Julian Calendar to the level of "Church Calendar" and pronounce anathema against those who seek to follow after the Fathers by correcting our liturgical calendar to align it more closely with the seasons. I don't understand this mentality because I see evidence against it in our Tradition.
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« Reply #1945 on: July 23, 2012, 01:16:16 AM »

no one follows a New Calendar Paschalion.

Finland?

And Its my understanding the Patriarch of Constantinople  blesses them to do so? I could be wrong, however.

You're right.  

Celebrating Pascha with the Western Pascalion has something to do with civil recognition in Finland as I recall.
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« Reply #1946 on: July 23, 2012, 03:52:52 PM »

Is it true that, in addition to Finland, the Church in Estonia (under the Pat. of Constantinople?) also celebrates western easter?
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« Reply #1947 on: July 23, 2012, 04:00:12 PM »

There is no ecumenical canon on sexual positions.
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« Reply #1948 on: July 24, 2012, 04:17:08 AM »

Is it true that, in addition to Finland, the Church in Estonia (under the Pat. of Constantinople?) also celebrates western easter?

I've never read or heard that the Church of Estonia under the Ecumenical Patriarchate is on the Western Paschalion; I've read that the only Orthodox Church that celebrates Pascha under the Western calendar formula is the Church of Finland.
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« Reply #1949 on: July 24, 2012, 05:41:35 AM »

Is it true that, in addition to Finland, the Church in Estonia (under the Pat. of Constantinople?) also celebrates western easter?

It was true until this year. Before that they had both parishes entirely on the Gregorian Calendar and at the same some parishes, which for "pastoral reasons" were entirely on the Julian Calendar, so they actually celebrated Pascha on different dates. In June 2011 they decided that they would celebrate Pascha and moveable feasts on one date according to the Julian Calendar.

http://www.orthodoxa.org/FR/estonie/presse/presse%20calendrier.htm
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« Reply #1950 on: July 24, 2012, 06:57:56 AM »

There were also some gossips about Western Paschalion in the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia. Can anyone confirm / deny them?

@ag_vn: You are quite informed about interjurisdictional matters. I'm impressed.
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« Reply #1951 on: November 13, 2012, 04:50:52 PM »

For an inquirer, it is a bit hard to understand the calendar issue...
Why is such a hot topic?
I read an article which related the change to Modernism....and the author had some very interesting and good points. What are the opposing arguments?
Based on the article I read, the scientific part of it was not even amongst the arguments when they introduced it in 1924(?), but rather Ecumenist arguments ruled the day. Now THAT certainly made me uncomfortable.
Can anyone enlighten me?
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« Reply #1952 on: November 13, 2012, 05:14:29 PM »

Some objections that are usually raised:

1) The Julian calendar was "canonized" by the Council of Nicaea of 325. It has been used to determine Pascha and it is what was used from the time of the apostles to 1920-something.

2) There never was a decision of an ecumenical or pan-orthodox council to adopt the new calendar

3) The Pope made the new calendar.
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« Reply #1953 on: November 13, 2012, 05:24:17 PM »


I read an article which related the change to Modernism
What do you mean by modernism?
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« Reply #1954 on: November 13, 2012, 05:40:50 PM »

If Jesus were here to comment on the issue, I imagine that He would say that the decisions of councils are made for men and not men for the decisions of councils--at least in regards to something as trivial as the calendar that is not really related to any essential dogma as far as I know.
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« Reply #1955 on: November 13, 2012, 06:27:45 PM »


I read an article which related the change to Modernism
What do you mean by modernism?

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« Reply #1956 on: November 13, 2012, 08:26:56 PM »

Some objections that are usually raised:

1) The Julian calendar was "canonized" by the Council of Nicaea of 325. It has been used to determine Pascha and it is what was used from the time of the apostles to 1920-something.

2) There never was a decision of an ecumenical or pan-orthodox council to adopt the new calendar

3) The Pope made the new calendar.
I think this is the misconception that makes me laugh about "traditionalists" who seem like they aren't aware of the Byzantine Calendar...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_calendar

I am fine with a change of calendar. What I am not fine with is some of the Orthodox Churches going out on their own and changing to the New Calendar without a consensus, leaving a divided Church that can't even celebrate the feasts together.

If there was to be a change, the whole  communion of the Orthodox Church should have been on board.
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« Reply #1957 on: November 13, 2012, 08:30:47 PM »

I am fine with a change of calendar. What I am not fine with is some of the Orthodox Churches going out on their own and changing to the New Calendar without a consensus, leaving a divided Church that can't even celebrate the feasts together.

That's not the calendar fault. Intercession is the prime example (or the Transfer of St. Nicholas' Relics).
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« Reply #1958 on: November 13, 2012, 08:42:46 PM »

The calendar issue---is realy not about the calender, much!

The calender was just a diversion to get your attention on the calender while they changed other things.

its like a bill being passed might sound good but in order to pass it you must also agree/give in to other things u do not agree with.

like...........ecumenism

lots of good threads on here to learn more on the 'calender" issue.
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« Reply #1959 on: November 13, 2012, 10:36:36 PM »

If Jesus were here to comment on the issue, I imagine that He would say that the decisions of councils are made for men and not men for the decisions of councils--at least in regards to something as trivial as the calendar that is not really related to any essential dogma as far as I know.

I would expect you to consider splitting the unity of worship in the Church to only be a trivial matter.
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« Reply #1960 on: November 13, 2012, 10:56:13 PM »

I would expect you to consider splitting the unity of worship in the Church to only be a trivial matter.

Such unity never existed (maybe for 5-20 years after Pentecost).
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« Reply #1961 on: November 13, 2012, 11:03:57 PM »

Some objections that are usually raised:

1) The Julian calendar was "canonized" by the Council of Nicaea of 325. It has been used to determine Pascha and it is what was used from the time of the apostles to 1920-something.

2) There never was a decision of an ecumenical or pan-orthodox council to adopt the new calendar

3) The Pope made the new calendar.
all pretty much nonsense.
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« Reply #1962 on: November 14, 2012, 12:06:45 AM »

Some objections that are usually raised:

1) The Julian calendar was "canonized" by the Council of Nicaea of 325. It has been used to determine Pascha and it is what was used from the time of the apostles to 1920-something.

2) There never was a decision of an ecumenical or pan-orthodox council to adopt the new calendar

3) The Pope made the new calendar.

Without getting into the entire debate for the time being, the Julian Calendar WAS NOT CANONIZED by any Ecumenical Synod (Council) of the Church, including Nicaea.  It was used to determine the date of Pascha, and it remains as the calendar which is used to determine the Paschal date, along with cycle of the moon, even by the churches which use the Revised Julian Calendar for the non-movable festal calendar.  Even the Old Calendar traditionalists don't claim that the Julian Calendar is part of the canonical tradition of the church.  The Old Calendarists do argue that the Julian Calendar was "sanctified" by its use by the church.
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« Reply #1963 on: November 14, 2012, 05:06:05 AM »


I read an article which related the change to Modernism
What do you mean by modernism?

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« Reply #1964 on: November 14, 2012, 05:10:09 AM »


I read an article which related the change to Modernism
What do you mean by modernism?

By Modernism I mean a tendency in theology to accommodate traditional religious teaching to contemporary thought and especially to devalue supernatural elements.
Phenomenons such as Ecumenism as it is often practised today, are very often a sign of Modernism.
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« Reply #1965 on: November 14, 2012, 05:18:49 AM »

Some objections that are usually raised:

1) The Julian calendar was "canonized" by the Council of Nicaea of 325. It has been used to determine Pascha and it is what was used from the time of the apostles to 1920-something.

2) There never was a decision of an ecumenical or pan-orthodox council to adopt the new calendar

3) The Pope made the new calendar.

Without getting into the entire debate for the time being, the Julian Calendar WAS NOT CANONIZED by any Ecumenical Synod (Council) of the Church, including Nicaea.  It was used to determine the date of Pascha, and it remains as the calendar which is used to determine the Paschal date, along with cycle of the moon, even by the churches which use the Revised Julian Calendar for the non-movable festal calendar.  Even the Old Calendar traditionalists don't claim that the Julian Calendar is part of the canonical tradition of the church.  The Old Calendarists do argue that the Julian Calendar was "sanctified" by its use by the church.

That's why I used the scare quotes. And I have seen it argued by some Old Calendarists that Nicaea "adopted" (note the scare quotes) the Julian when they used it to determine Pascha.
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« Reply #1966 on: November 14, 2012, 05:26:41 AM »

Some objections that are usually raised:

1) The Julian calendar was "canonized" by the Council of Nicaea of 325. It has been used to determine Pascha and it is what was used from the time of the apostles to 1920-something.

2) There never was a decision of an ecumenical or pan-orthodox council to adopt the new calendar

3) The Pope made the new calendar.

Thanks for presenting the main arguments.

 1) Canonized?  You mean "canonised by use", I take it? Made holy by its use?  Just as a piece of wood can be thrown out just like that, you can't do the same with a piece of wood upon which an icon has been painted. The wood is sanctified by the painting. That is something I can be sympathetic too. Maybe not an argument in the rational sense, but why should everything be rational? Tradition itself is enough, at least that is what my instincts tell me.
2)A good argument, based on my limited knowledge about Orthodoxy. Drastic changes affecting the life of the church as much as change of calendar can't be made unless it is done by a council? Am I correct?
3) In and of itself not an argument. If the Pope invented socks, it doesn't mean it is a bad invention and should not be adopted.

When I read the letter from the synod which adopted the new calendar, I was a bit stunned by the ecumenical language and motives for it. Not a word about scientific accuracy, even though that must certainly be considered as being amongst the primary arguments, in my opinion.
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« Reply #1967 on: November 14, 2012, 06:05:11 AM »

3) In and of itself not an argument. If the Pope invented socks, it doesn't mean it is a bad invention and should not be adopted.
Except that point 3 is nonsense. It's not the Gregorian calendar. It doesn't use the Gregorian Paschalion and it actually is slightly more accurate than the Gregorian. The two calendars will eventually drift apart as a result

Quote
When I read the letter from the synod which adopted the new calendar, I was a bit stunned by the ecumenical language and motives for it. Not a word about scientific accuracy, even though that must certainly be considered as being amongst the primary arguments, in my opinion.

I agree. I'm on the New Calendar but I don't particularly like it. I don't see it as a reason for schism, however. The biggest problem, though, is the lack of unity that its introduction by only some churches introduced, closely followed by the fact that continuing to use the Julian calendar for the moveable feasts results in absurdities like fasts that last a negative number of days. The situation needs to be fixed, no doubt, and hopefully it will be when the Pan-Orthodox Synod finally takes place, but we certainly shouldn't be idolising the Old Calendar, which is, frankly, what some Old Calendarists I've come across seem to do. It doesn't matter if everyone ends up on the old calendar, the new calendar or some other calendar. What matters is that we all end up on the same calendar and that it works - regardless of whether that means we celebrate Christmas with the west or not.

James
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« Reply #1968 on: November 14, 2012, 06:10:18 AM »

1) Canonized?  You mean "canonised by use", I take it? Made holy by its use?  Just as a piece of wood can be thrown out just like that, you can't do the same with a piece of wood upon which an icon has been painted. The wood is sanctified by the painting. That is something I can be sympathetic too. Maybe not an argument in the rational sense, but why should everything be rational? Tradition itself is enough, at least that is what my instincts tell me.

The argument goes like "The Fathers assembled at Nicaea used the Julian to determine Pascha, thus the Julian Pascha is the official calendar". This article mentions it briefly: "Do parishioners really have the authority to overturn the decisions of OEcumenical Synods and local Councils? "


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« Reply #1969 on: November 14, 2012, 10:21:04 AM »

the earth is turning on the new calendar. if we follow the old calendar, we will eventually celebrate Christmas in a totally different season (spring for the northern hemisphere, autumn for the southern).
if God liked the old calendar so much, He would have slowed down the earth so it could catch up.
 Tongue

seriously though, it is not the actually calendar which is the big deal, it is the way people have been mean to each other while changing it / not changing it (delete as appropriate). historically there has been some meanness on all sides, and this is why people are still divided over the calendar.
in the coptic church we have both the old and the new calendar!

most of us are on the old calendar (which i don't mind as i have got used to it and it means i don't have to miss 'our' Christmas if i am invited to a catholic or protestant celebration with family). the british orthodox, who are part of the coptic church, were allowed by our dear and much loved patriarch shenouda 3rd to celebrate 13 days ahead of us all the feasts except Pascha (easter) which we share.

the ancient orthodox dating of Pascha is even accepted by the romanian protestants, who celebrate it on the 'correct' date, as opposed to 'catholic Pascha'.

so, i think we should all follow the british orthodox church calendar and be in synch with the turning of the globe!
i will tell the new patriarch (who starts 'work' in 4 days; may God give him many years) next time he stops over for coffee!
 Wink

edited for rubbish spelling...
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« Reply #1970 on: November 14, 2012, 10:41:51 AM »

the earth is turning on the new calendar. if we follow the old calendar, we will eventually celebrate Christmas in a totally different season (spring for the northern hemisphere, autumn for the southern).
if God liked the old calendar so much, He would have slowed down the earth so it could catch up.
 Tongue

seriously though, it is not the actually calendar which is the big deal, it is the way people have been mean to each other while changing it / not changing it (delete as appropriate). historically there has been some meanness on all sides, and this is why people are still divided over the calendar.
in the coptic church we have both the old and the new calendar!

most of us are on the old calendar (which i don't mind as i have got used to it and it means i don't have to miss 'our' Christmas if i am invited to a catholic or protestant celebration with family). the british orthodox, who are part of the coptic church, were allowed by our dear and much loved patriarch shenouda 3rd to celebrate 13 days ahead of us all the feasts except Pascha (easter) which we share.

the ancient orthodox dating of Pascha is even accepted by the romanian protestants, who celebrate it on the 'correct' date, as opposed to 'catholic Pascha'.

so, i think we should all follow the british orthodox church calendar and be in synch with the turning of the globe!
i will tell the new patriarch (who starts 'work' in 4 days; may God give him many years) next time he stops over for coffee!
 Wink

edited for rubbish spelling...

The problem with that suggestion (the British Orthodox one) is that it's effectively what we have - fixed feasts on the new calendar, moveable on the old. Most of the time it seems to work OK, except with regards to the Apostle's Fast which can, amazingly, end before it starts. Not sure if this is an issue for Copts as I don't know how your fasts work, but it certainly is for Romanians.

James
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« Reply #1971 on: November 14, 2012, 04:30:38 PM »

hmm, just calculated the british orthodox church will only have a few days of apostles' fast next yr, maybe they can answer that!
(Pascha is 5th may)
in romania it would be a problem as some people only take Holy Communion during fasts. but this in itself is wrong, as i try to explain to my romanian orthodox friends.
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« Reply #1972 on: November 14, 2012, 05:41:44 PM »


I read an article which related the change to Modernism
What do you mean by modernism?

By Modernism I mean a tendency in theology to accommodate traditional religious teaching to contemporary thought and especially to devalue supernatural elements.
Phenomenons such as Ecumenism as it is often practised today, are very often a sign of Modernism.

You might could benefit from taking a break from certain agenda-driven websites.
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« Reply #1973 on: November 14, 2012, 10:58:36 PM »

By Modernism I mean a tendency in theology to accommodate traditional religious teaching to contemporary thought and especially to devalue supernatural elements.
That's not really modernism, though.

It's more like secularization, demystification, or something like that.
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« Reply #1974 on: November 15, 2012, 03:37:37 AM »


I read an article which related the change to Modernism
What do you mean by modernism?

By Modernism I mean a tendency in theology to accommodate traditional religious teaching to contemporary thought and especially to devalue supernatural elements.
Phenomenons such as Ecumenism as it is often practised today, are very often a sign of Modernism.

You might could benefit from taking a break from certain agenda-driven websites.

Like what? I am not exactly someone who spends all his time online, so the only place I am actually spending a bit of time, is this website Smiley
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« Reply #1975 on: November 15, 2012, 03:39:46 AM »

By Modernism I mean a tendency in theology to accommodate traditional religious teaching to contemporary thought and especially to devalue supernatural elements.
That's not really modernism, though.

It's more like secularization, demystification, or something like that.

Modernism leads to, amongst others, secularization.
The definition is from Encylopedia Britannica, quoted as I remember it. Thus an official definition.
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« Reply #1976 on: November 15, 2012, 04:55:23 AM »

hmm, just calculated the british orthodox church will only have a few days of apostles' fast next yr, maybe they can answer that!
(Pascha is 5th may)
in romania it would be a problem as some people only take Holy Communion during fasts. but this in itself is wrong, as i try to explain to my romanian orthodox friends.

True. This is something every Romanian priest I've ever known tells his parishioners also. It comes from the fact that people misunderstand our requirement for fasting prior to receiving. Ask any priest and you'll almost certainly hear that it means keep the prescribed fasts for the week but ask a layman and it's quite likely you'll hear that it means fast strictly for the whole week.

James
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« Reply #1977 on: November 15, 2012, 04:53:41 PM »

Better men and women than you and I have debated this issue ad nauseum. It is beyond a convert issue and I am transferring it to the Religous issues board.

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« Reply #1978 on: November 15, 2012, 07:41:43 PM »

Merged with The Great Calendar Thread.
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« Reply #1979 on: November 15, 2012, 11:07:07 PM »

The definition is from Encylopedia Britannica, quoted as I remember it.
Not so sure about that, or that it is therefore official.
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