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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 209055 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #1845 on: February 29, 2012, 09:00:21 PM »

If the new calendar was not, for all intents and purposes, invented by a Roman Pontiff, would there be such a hub-bub about it in Orthodoxy?

PP

No. Exacerbating factors: The adoption of the Revised Julian by the Living Church in Russia;  the heavy-handed way by which it was imposed; and the less than stellar Patriarch Meletius who pushed it.
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« Reply #1846 on: February 29, 2012, 10:02:56 PM »

The revised Julian Calender is just not tradition.  I think the Orthodox Paschallion was seen as a compromise, oh we can revise it but as long as we keep Orthodox Pascha the people won't mind.. muh ha ha ha

It's one of the most destructive things in Orthodoxy to have two calenders.  It should be the Julian Calender hands down.
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« Reply #1847 on: March 01, 2012, 11:34:14 AM »

If the new calendar was not, for all intents and purposes, invented by a Roman Pontiff, would there be such a hub-bub about it in Orthodoxy?
Define "for all intents and purposes".
Well, he didn't invent it all by himself Smiley

PP
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« Reply #1848 on: March 01, 2012, 12:02:07 PM »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that both the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar were invented by non-Orthodox Romans  Huh ?
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« Reply #1849 on: March 01, 2012, 12:48:56 PM »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that both the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar were invented by non-Orthodox Romans  Huh ?
I remember making that comment not too long ago. Evidently, it didn't matter.

PP
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« Reply #1850 on: March 01, 2012, 01:03:54 PM »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that both the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar were invented by non-Orthodox Romans  Huh ?

I wonder if the Orthodox Church has post-death Baptisms like the Mormons do.  Because if we do, then I am going to all kinds of get Julius brought in.  Then this issue will be settled once and for all!
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« Reply #1851 on: March 01, 2012, 01:50:30 PM »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that both the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar were invented by non-Orthodox Romans  Huh ?

I wonder if the Orthodox Church has post-death Baptisms like the Mormons do.  Because if we do, then I am going to all kinds of get Julius brought in.  Then this issue will be settled once and for all!

PM Pasadi.

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« Reply #1852 on: March 01, 2012, 02:10:40 PM »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that both the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar were invented by non-Orthodox Romans  Huh ?

I wonder if the Orthodox Church has post-death Baptisms like the Mormons do.  Because if we do, then I am going to all kinds of get Julius brought in.  Then this issue will be settled once and for all!

PM Pasadi.

He knows a Guy . . .
Well, he could compare a post death baptism by a Mormon and one by an Orthodox and wait 40 days and........

PP
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« Reply #1853 on: March 01, 2012, 02:45:22 PM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
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« Reply #1854 on: March 01, 2012, 02:51:48 PM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
Thats a good point. I just feel that the calendar problem is not based upon scientific issues, but because it is considered ecumenism.

PP
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« Reply #1855 on: March 01, 2012, 03:33:45 PM »

If the new calendar was not, for all intents and purposes, invented by a Roman Pontiff, would there be such a hub-bub about it in Orthodoxy?

PP

I'd like to think it being problematic not due to papal originis but due to theology. But then again there's probably loads of Eastern Europeans who give massive evil eyes to everyone who say anything papal-related out loud.
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« Reply #1856 on: March 01, 2012, 04:00:33 PM »

Regarding the Calendar change:

we should keep in mind that changing the dates of the calendar from old to new is the least of our worries.
At first i was like,"whats the big deal, its just dates on a calender?"
I was terribly wrong!

i think the actual calender change was just to divert our attention to it instead of all the other tings they have changed about our religion!
Kinda like a magician who says "look nothing up my sleeve", showing you his right sleeve (so you will look there) and not notice what he is doing with his left hand to tick you. Think smoke and mirrors.

They show you the right hand (calendar change) while with the left hand they slip in ecumenism, shorten our church liturgy (even further), in effect do away with fasting, there is more but I'm tired.

You guys need to do your homework regarding Orthodoxy and the calender change. its shocking.

I realised in my lifetime that our religion had changed in the last 20-30 years, things that were unheard of are now the norm, its incredible.
By further investigating these changes i realise that it can all be traced back to the calender change some 87 years or so back.

The Christianity you (we) know now is a watered down version.
If you love your Orthodoxy now how much more would you have loved the undiluted Orthodoxy of the past?

THINK, don't be spoon fed everything!
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« Reply #1857 on: March 01, 2012, 04:07:20 PM »

Regarding the Calendar change:

we should keep in mind that changing the dates of the calendar from old to new is the least of our worries.
At first i was like,"whats the big deal, its just dates on a calender?"
I was terribly wrong!

i think the actual calender change was just to divert our attention to it instead of all the other tings they have changed about our religion!
Kinda like a magician who says "look nothing up my sleeve", showing you his right sleeve (so you will look there) and not notice what he is doing with his left hand to tick you. Think smoke and mirrors.

They show you the right hand (calendar change) while with the left hand they slip in ecumenism, shorten our church liturgy (even further), in effect do away with fasting, there is more but I'm tired.

You guys need to do your homework regarding Orthodoxy and the calender change. its shocking.

I realised in my lifetime that our religion had changed in the last 20-30 years, things that were unheard of are now the norm, its incredible.
By further investigating these changes i realise that it can all be traced back to the calender change some 87 years or so back.

The Christianity you (we) know now is a watered down version.
If you love your Orthodoxy now how much more would you have loved the undiluted Orthodoxy of the past?

THINK, don't be spoon fed everything!


Or you could help by not being vague.
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« Reply #1858 on: March 01, 2012, 04:11:56 PM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
Thats a good point. I just feel that the calendar problem is not based upon scientific issues, but because it is considered ecumenism.

PP

In addition to the ecumenism thing, I think that the gregorian calendar shortens one of the Fasts (Ss. Peter & Paul, I think?).

Personally, I use the gregorian calendar day to day since it is what the world runs on.  If I send a quote or enter an order and send it with a Julian date, there could be pricing problems, messed up shipping schedules, etc.  When I start reading the daily Epistle and Gospel readings I will probably start following the Julian calendar for that.  But until then, I just don't use it often enough.
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« Reply #1859 on: March 01, 2012, 04:18:11 PM »

Regarding the Calendar change:

we should keep in mind that changing the dates of the calendar from old to new is the least of our worries.
At first i was like,"whats the big deal, its just dates on a calender?"
I was terribly wrong!

i think the actual calender change was just to divert our attention to it instead of all the other tings they have changed about our religion!
Kinda like a magician who says "look nothing up my sleeve", showing you his right sleeve (so you will look there) and not notice what he is doing with his left hand to tick you. Think smoke and mirrors.

They show you the right hand (calendar change) while with the left hand they slip in ecumenism, shorten our church liturgy (even further), in effect do away with fasting, there is more but I'm tired.

You guys need to do your homework regarding Orthodoxy and the calender change. its shocking.

I realised in my lifetime that our religion had changed in the last 20-30 years, things that were unheard of are now the norm, its incredible.
By further investigating these changes i realise that it can all be traced back to the calender change some 87 years or so back.

The Christianity you (we) know now is a watered down version.
If you love your Orthodoxy now how much more would you have loved the undiluted Orthodoxy of the past?

THINK, don't be spoon fed everything!


Or you could help by not being vague.

What am i being vague abt?

Are yo asking me to spood feed you.
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« Reply #1860 on: March 01, 2012, 04:40:35 PM »

Quote
i think the actual calender change was just to divert our attention to it instead of all the other tings they have changed about our religion!
So the calendar change was an actual, conscious diversion? How so?

Quote
They show you the right hand (calendar change) while with the left hand they slip in ecumenism
That I can agree with
Quote
shorten our church liturgy
Since Im western rite, I'll have to take your word on that

Quote
in effect do away with fasting
huh?
Quote
You guys need to do your homework regarding Orthodoxy and the calender change
Thats why I posted, because I dont get it.

PP
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« Reply #1861 on: March 01, 2012, 04:46:23 PM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
Thats a good point. I just feel that the calendar problem is not based upon scientific issues, but because it is considered ecumenism.

PP

In addition to the ecumenism thing, I think that the gregorian calendar shortens one of the Fasts (Ss. Peter & Paul, I think?).


It's not the New Calendar per se which shortens the Apostles' Fast. It's the combination of adopting the New Calendar for fixed feasts while continuing to use the Julian date of the vernal equinox to calculate Pascha (and therefore Pentecost).  If the Paschalion were also updated to use the actual vernal equinox (instead of the date of the Vernal Equinox in the 4th century on the Julian calendar as we do now), then the Apostles' Fast would go back to being as long on the New Calendar as it always was on the Old.

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« Reply #1862 on: March 01, 2012, 04:47:29 PM »

If the new calendar was not, for all intents and purposes, invented by a Roman Pontiff, would there be such a hub-bub about it in Orthodoxy?

PP

Yes. The issue about the calendar is the Nicene paschalion, not the pope.
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« Reply #1863 on: March 01, 2012, 04:48:27 PM »

If the new calendar was not, for all intents and purposes, invented by a Roman Pontiff, would there be such a hub-bub about it in Orthodoxy?
Define "for all intents and purposes".
Well, he didn't invent it all by himself Smiley

PP

He was, of course, assisted by demons. Everyone knows this.
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« Reply #1864 on: March 01, 2012, 04:48:50 PM »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that both the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar were invented by non-Orthodox Romans  Huh ?

Is OUTRAGE!
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« Reply #1865 on: March 01, 2012, 05:01:58 PM »

Regarding the Calendar change:

we should keep in mind that changing the dates of the calendar from old to new is the least of our worries.
At first i was like,"whats the big deal, its just dates on a calender?"
I was terribly wrong!

i think the actual calender change was just to divert our attention to it instead of all the other tings they have changed about our religion!
Kinda like a magician who says "look nothing up my sleeve", showing you his right sleeve (so you will look there) and not notice what he is doing with his left hand to tick you. Think smoke and mirrors.

They show you the right hand (calendar change) while with the left hand they slip in ecumenism, shorten our church liturgy (even further), in effect do away with fasting, there is more but I'm tired.

You guys need to do your homework regarding Orthodoxy and the calender change. its shocking.

I realised in my lifetime that our religion had changed in the last 20-30 years, things that were unheard of are now the norm, its incredible.
By further investigating these changes i realise that it can all be traced back to the calender change some 87 years or so back.

The Christianity you (we) know now is a watered down version.
If you love your Orthodoxy now how much more would you have loved the undiluted Orthodoxy of the past?

THINK, don't be spoon fed everything!


In my lifetime (no I was not around when the change was first made, just since 1945), I also noticed some changes, but for the better. In the parishes of Orthodox Church in America and the Antiochian Archdiocese, I experienced less of an emphasis on ethnic goodies and more on worship and personal piety: certainly more frequent communion and increased use of the Sacrament of Penance; increased number of weekday and feast day services, establishment of Orthodox publishers and bookstores; increased number of converts; increased rate of church attendance and participation, etc.. Incidentally, both of these jurisdictions are on the Revised Julian.

Think man, don't be spoon fed everything!
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« Reply #1866 on: March 01, 2012, 06:00:20 PM »

Yes, bringing them up to where the Julian Churchs have been all along.  At least that is what I have seen in the last 16 years.  Of course, if piety and number of converts is how we mark the Faith, then we should really convert to Islam, or maybe even Mormanism.

Regarding the Calendar change:

we should keep in mind that changing the dates of the calendar from old to new is the least of our worries.
At first i was like,"whats the big deal, its just dates on a calender?"
I was terribly wrong!

i think the actual calender change was just to divert our attention to it instead of all the other tings they have changed about our religion!
Kinda like a magician who says "look nothing up my sleeve", showing you his right sleeve (so you will look there) and not notice what he is doing with his left hand to tick you. Think smoke and mirrors.

They show you the right hand (calendar change) while with the left hand they slip in ecumenism, shorten our church liturgy (even further), in effect do away with fasting, there is more but I'm tired.

You guys need to do your homework regarding Orthodoxy and the calender change. its shocking.

I realised in my lifetime that our religion had changed in the last 20-30 years, things that were unheard of are now the norm, its incredible.
By further investigating these changes i realise that it can all be traced back to the calender change some 87 years or so back.

The Christianity you (we) know now is a watered down version.
If you love your Orthodoxy now how much more would you have loved the undiluted Orthodoxy of the past?

THINK, don't be spoon fed everything!


In my lifetime (no I was not around when the change was first made, just since 1945), I also noticed some changes, but for the better. In the parishes of Orthodox Church in America and the Antiochian Archdiocese, I experienced less of an emphasis on ethnic goodies and more on worship and personal piety: certainly more frequent communion and increased use of the Sacrament of Penance; increased number of weekday and feast day services, establishment of Orthodox publishers and bookstores; increased number of converts; increased rate of church attendance and participation, etc.. Incidentally, both of these jurisdictions are on the Revised Julian.

Think man, don't be spoon fed everything!
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« Reply #1867 on: March 01, 2012, 06:07:32 PM »

Of course, if piety and number of converts is how we mark the Faith, then we should really convert to Islam

Islam has numerous converts? I've always assumed that number of Muslims is increasing due to large families and not because of converts.
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« Reply #1868 on: March 01, 2012, 06:09:37 PM »

Yes, bringing them up to where the Julian Churchs have been all along.  At least that is what I have seen in the last 16 years.  Of course, if piety and number of converts is how we mark the Faith, then we should really convert to Islam, or maybe even Mormanism.

Regarding the Calendar change:

we should keep in mind that changing the dates of the calendar from old to new is the least of our worries.
At first i was like,"whats the big deal, its just dates on a calender?"
I was terribly wrong!

i think the actual calender change was just to divert our attention to it instead of all the other tings they have changed about our religion!
Kinda like a magician who says "look nothing up my sleeve", showing you his right sleeve (so you will look there) and not notice what he is doing with his left hand to tick you. Think smoke and mirrors.

They show you the right hand (calendar change) while with the left hand they slip in ecumenism, shorten our church liturgy (even further), in effect do away with fasting, there is more but I'm tired.

You guys need to do your homework regarding Orthodoxy and the calender change. its shocking.

I realised in my lifetime that our religion had changed in the last 20-30 years, things that were unheard of are now the norm, its incredible.
By further investigating these changes i realise that it can all be traced back to the calender change some 87 years or so back.

The Christianity you (we) know now is a watered down version.
If you love your Orthodoxy now how much more would you have loved the undiluted Orthodoxy of the past?

THINK, don't be spoon fed everything!


In my lifetime (no I was not around when the change was first made, just since 1945), I also noticed some changes, but for the better. In the parishes of Orthodox Church in America and the Antiochian Archdiocese, I experienced less of an emphasis on ethnic goodies and more on worship and personal piety: certainly more frequent communion and increased use of the Sacrament of Penance; increased number of weekday and feast day services, establishment of Orthodox publishers and bookstores; increased number of converts; increased rate of church attendance and participation, etc.. Incidentally, both of these jurisdictions are on the Revised Julian.

Think man, don't be spoon fed everything!

Punch--I am talking about Julian Churches that improved after changing to the Revised Julian. I have no idea why you are not happy with my indicators, but have at it--give us other indicators we can look at to judge progress in the past 87 years.
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« Reply #1869 on: March 01, 2012, 08:11:41 PM »

Quote
i think the actual calender change was just to divert our attention to it instead of all the other tings they have changed about our religion!
So the calendar change was an actual, conscious diversion? How so?

Thats standart inteligence (covert)procedure: Like i said, give them something to focus on and divert ther attention to it while your real objective was to slip in other things while they are bitching and copmplaining about the first thing. Thats just my opinion, it could have been done innocently without any fore thought?

Quote
They show you the right hand (calendar change) while with the left hand they slip in ecumenism
That I can agree with
Quote
shorten our church liturgy
Since Im western rite, I'll have to take your word on that

Quote
in effect do away with fasting
huh?

Brother the fasting is what got me investigating this. I cant belive it but the greek ortho church of america states fasting procedures. and all it is is dont eat Sunday morning before you go to recive!?!? I have spoken with people here in the US and with people in greece and they to are shocked. As a mater of fact, some people in Greece i did not even say what the requirements are here cause im emmbarassed.The bare min for reciving comunion is to fast Wed-Sun, barring age and health issues. not to mention confession.

Quote
You guys need to do your homework regarding Orthodoxy and the calender change
Thats why I posted, because I dont get it.

The old calander churches seem to follow the old school requirements. They have not bent the rules in order to attract more converts, to make it easyer for them, to grow as a church, to make more money...

This is the way i look at it: orthodoxy (i was born into it) but it appeals to me cause i find it VERY important to be closest to the beginging of the 1st church. I belive the closer to the source you go the truer the religion, less inovations less changes for whatever reason. Thats Orthiodoxy, thats why i did not become Catholic. they (Catholics) vered off of the 1st church. BUT more importantly then the veer is the changes they made from the original! you can say the same for the new calander! they veered off the original church and made changes creating what we have now.


PP

I wish someone would help me with this as i know there are people on here that are Old calander, not only that but they also practice "old school Orthodoxy".

Also, i want to say for the record, i cant say what they have done is wrong!
could be that Orthodoxy is much bigger and stronger caus of the changes they have made enabling many more people to come in the door and convert by making it much more eazyer? Whos to say if they never changes that we would be a dying religion deminishing in number?

I just think everyone should KNOW where we come from.

BTW: i answered the above quoat in italics in the blue area.
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« Reply #1870 on: March 01, 2012, 11:27:10 PM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
Thats a good point. I just feel that the calendar problem is not based upon scientific issues, but because it is considered ecumenism.

PP

In addition to the ecumenism thing, I think that the gregorian calendar shortens one of the Fasts (Ss. Peter & Paul, I think?).
Actually, that's a misconception. The reason the Apostles' Fast gets shortened in New Calendar churches is the superimposition of the Old Calendar Paschalion onto the New Calendar Menologion. We're essentially using two different calendars for our feasts.
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« Reply #1871 on: March 01, 2012, 11:33:41 PM »

Of course, if piety and number of converts is how we mark the Faith, then we should really convert to Islam

Islam has numerous converts? I've always assumed that number of Muslims is increasing due to large families and not because of converts.

I know a white guy who converted to Islam, so who knows, maybe it's not uncommon?
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« Reply #1872 on: March 01, 2012, 11:38:23 PM »

Of course, if piety and number of converts is how we mark the Faith, then we should really convert to Islam

Islam has numerous converts? I've always assumed that number of Muslims is increasing due to large families and not because of converts.

I know a white guy who converted to Islam, so who knows, maybe it's not uncommon?

According to the NYT according to wikipedia:

Quote
According to the New York Times, 25% of American Muslims are converts to Islam.[19] In Britain, around 10,000 – 20,000 people convert to Islam per year.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth#Conversion
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« Reply #1873 on: March 01, 2012, 11:42:50 PM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?
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« Reply #1874 on: March 02, 2012, 12:29:12 AM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?
Not to my knowledge. The fast free period he mandated is the 40 days between Pascha and Ascension. The Apostles' Fast starts 18 days after the Ascension.
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« Reply #1875 on: March 02, 2012, 12:34:01 AM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
Thats a good point. I just feel that the calendar problem is not based upon scientific issues, but because it is considered ecumenism.

PP

In addition to the ecumenism thing, I think that the gregorian calendar shortens one of the Fasts (Ss. Peter & Paul, I think?).
Actually, that's a misconception. The reason the Apostles' Fast gets shortened in New Calendar churches is the superimposition of the Old Calendar Paschalion onto the New Calendar Menologion. We're essentially using two different calendars for our feasts.

Doesn't that create even more problems, then?  I thought the date for Pascha was set by the Canons (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not up to speed on my liturgics).  If that is the case, then wouldn't that invalidate the gregorian calendar?
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« Reply #1876 on: March 02, 2012, 01:12:24 AM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
Thats a good point. I just feel that the calendar problem is not based upon scientific issues, but because it is considered ecumenism.

PP

In addition to the ecumenism thing, I think that the gregorian calendar shortens one of the Fasts (Ss. Peter & Paul, I think?).
Actually, that's a misconception. The reason the Apostles' Fast gets shortened in New Calendar churches is the superimposition of the Old Calendar Paschalion onto the New Calendar Menologion. We're essentially using two different calendars for our feasts.

Doesn't that create even more problems, then?  I thought the date for Pascha was set by the Canons (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not up to speed on my liturgics).  If that is the case, then wouldn't that invalidate the gregorian calendar?

No, the 'canon' (actually a decision by the First Ecumenical Council) simply says that Pascha is to be calculated based on the 'vernal equinox'. In the 4th century when the decision was made, the vernal equinox fell on March 21st of the Julian calendar and the Orthodox Paschalion is still using that date. However, we could update to use the actual vernal equinox (which now falls on approximately March 21st of the Gregorian Calendar) and doing so would actually make us more consistent with the original decision than the current practice.
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« Reply #1877 on: March 02, 2012, 02:35:31 AM »

Quote
According to the New York Times, 25% of American Muslims are converts to Islam.[19] In Britain, around 10,000 – 20,000 people convert to Islam per year.[20]

Thanks. I wonder whether that number of American converts has mostly something to do with US Black "nationalism".
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« Reply #1878 on: March 02, 2012, 01:49:40 PM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
Thats a good point. I just feel that the calendar problem is not based upon scientific issues, but because it is considered ecumenism.

PP

In addition to the ecumenism thing, I think that the gregorian calendar shortens one of the Fasts (Ss. Peter & Paul, I think?).
Actually, that's a misconception. The reason the Apostles' Fast gets shortened in New Calendar churches is the superimposition of the Old Calendar Paschalion onto the New Calendar Menologion. We're essentially using two different calendars for our feasts.

Doesn't that create even more problems, then?  I thought the date for Pascha was set by the Canons (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not up to speed on my liturgics).  If that is the case, then wouldn't that invalidate the gregorian calendar?

No, the 'canon' (actually a decision by the First Ecumenical Council) simply says that Pascha is to be calculated based on the 'vernal equinox'. In the 4th century when the decision was made, the vernal equinox fell on March 21st of the Julian calendar and the Orthodox Paschalion is still using that date. However, we could update to use the actual vernal equinox (which now falls on approximately March 21st of the Gregorian Calendar) and doing so would actually make us more consistent with the original decision than the current practice.

Perhaps, but it seems to me that liturgical coherence, which we have by preserving the traditional Typicon that calculated all the feasts by the same calendar, is of more spiritual importance than a literalist reading of the First Ecumenical Council's decision. There were many times when calendar reforms were proposed in Orthodox history, but the Church rejected them each time, on the grounds that the spiritual cost of disrupting the Church's liturgical cycle outweighed whatever benefits might come from restoring astronomical accuracy.
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« Reply #1879 on: March 02, 2012, 01:51:39 PM »

To answer the poster's question, probably not.  I think it was the Pope's unilateral imposition of his calendar that sparked the problem.  However, if it were just another calendar alternative, it may not have been adopted by the Roman Catholic dominated nations, and may not have become so commonly used. So, the civil states in which Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant, would not have felt so pressured to consider it either.
Thats a good point. I just feel that the calendar problem is not based upon scientific issues, but because it is considered ecumenism.

PP

In addition to the ecumenism thing, I think that the gregorian calendar shortens one of the Fasts (Ss. Peter & Paul, I think?).
Actually, that's a misconception. The reason the Apostles' Fast gets shortened in New Calendar churches is the superimposition of the Old Calendar Paschalion onto the New Calendar Menologion. We're essentially using two different calendars for our feasts.

Doesn't that create even more problems, then?  I thought the date for Pascha was set by the Canons (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not up to speed on my liturgics).  If that is the case, then wouldn't that invalidate the gregorian calendar?

Right, which is precisely why the Orthodox Church condemned the Gregorian calendar three times in the 16th century.
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« Reply #1880 on: March 02, 2012, 01:58:01 PM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?
Not to my knowledge. The fast free period he mandated is the 40 days between Pascha and Ascension. The Apostles' Fast starts 18 days after the Ascension.
It was not Metropolitan Philip's action, but rather that of the Synod of Antioch.
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« Reply #1881 on: March 02, 2012, 02:00:50 PM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?

No. Antiochians do (are supposed to) fast during the Apostles Fast (when there is one). The release from fasting was granted during the 40 days after Pascha, until the vigil of Ascension, and was not done by Metropolitan Philip himself, but by the Holy Synod. However, not all dioceses practice this. It is an option.

With regard to the Apostles Fast timing, Elder Cleopa of Romania said that, when there is no Apostles Fast, it is the job of the Holy Synod of the local Church to appoint a fast for the Holy Apostles, but I'm not aware of this ever being done.
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« Reply #1882 on: March 02, 2012, 02:22:21 PM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?

No. Antiochians do (are supposed to) fast during the Apostles Fast (when there is one). The release from fasting was granted during the 40 days after Pascha, until the vigil of Ascension, and was not done by Metropolitan Philip himself, but by the Holy Synod. However, not all dioceses practice this. It is an option.

With regard to the Apostles Fast timing, Elder Cleopa of Romania said that, when there is no Apostles Fast, it is the job of the Holy Synod of the local Church to appoint a fast for the Holy Apostles, but I'm not aware of this ever being done.
Isn't the usual trick to have people fast during the week after Pentecost?
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« Reply #1883 on: March 02, 2012, 02:36:24 PM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?
Not to my knowledge. The fast free period he mandated is the 40 days between Pascha and Ascension. The Apostles' Fast starts 18 days after the Ascension.

Also the extension of the fast free period was done by the Antiochian Holy Synod under the patriarchate of Antioch not just here in the AOCNA. Metropolitan Philip was merely following his Synod's decisions. Even with this it is not mandated, I know many Antiochian Orthodox who continue to follow the standard fasting schedule due to their own spiritual practice---it is just not required of them by the Holy Synod.

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« Reply #1884 on: March 02, 2012, 06:03:29 PM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?

No. Antiochians do (are supposed to) fast during the Apostles Fast (when there is one). The release from fasting was granted during the 40 days after Pascha, until the vigil of Ascension, and was not done by Metropolitan Philip himself, but by the Holy Synod. However, not all dioceses practice this. It is an option.

With regard to the Apostles Fast timing, Elder Cleopa of Romania said that, when there is no Apostles Fast, it is the job of the Holy Synod of the local Church to appoint a fast for the Holy Apostles, but I'm not aware of this ever being done.
Isn't the usual trick to have people fast during the week after Pentecost?

Trick?

I've never heard of fasting after Pentecost.
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« Reply #1885 on: March 02, 2012, 06:12:10 PM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?

No. Antiochians do (are supposed to) fast during the Apostles Fast (when there is one). The release from fasting was granted during the 40 days after Pascha, until the vigil of Ascension, and was not done by Metropolitan Philip himself, but by the Holy Synod. However, not all dioceses practice this. It is an option.

With regard to the Apostles Fast timing, Elder Cleopa of Romania said that, when there is no Apostles Fast, it is the job of the Holy Synod of the local Church to appoint a fast for the Holy Apostles, but I'm not aware of this ever being done.
Isn't the usual trick to have people fast during the week after Pentecost?

Trick?

I've never heard of fasting after Pentecost.

Fr Basil Sakkas mentions it in his book, but maybe it didn't catch on. You're right that fasting in the week after Pentecost is forbidden by the Typicon, but the same Typicon says we must fast before the feast of the Holy Apostles. Solution? Return to the traditional calendar!
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« Reply #1886 on: March 02, 2012, 06:54:24 PM »

The Antiochians do not fast during the Apostles fast because of Metr. Phillip extending the fast free period for forty days during Penetcost, is that correct?

No. Antiochians do (are supposed to) fast during the Apostles Fast (when there is one). The release from fasting was granted during the 40 days after Pascha, until the vigil of Ascension, and was not done by Metropolitan Philip himself, but by the Holy Synod. However, not all dioceses practice this. It is an option.

With regard to the Apostles Fast timing, Elder Cleopa of Romania said that, when there is no Apostles Fast, it is the job of the Holy Synod of the local Church to appoint a fast for the Holy Apostles, but I'm not aware of this ever being done.
Isn't the usual trick to have people fast during the week after Pentecost?

Trick?

I've never heard of fasting after Pentecost.

Fr Basil Sakkas mentions it in his book, but maybe it didn't catch on. You're right that fasting in the week after Pentecost is forbidden by the Typicon, but the same Typicon says we must fast before the feast of the Holy Apostles. Solution? Return to the traditional calendar!

Well, that is probably the easiest way of doing things. But it's hard enough getting even Orthodox people to believe, let alone practice Orthodoxy, and if they're against yet another thing like a calendar reversion, then the ship sort of capsizes--you end up with more premarital cohabitation, apostasy, and people following modern Orthodgurus instead of reading and learning from the Holy Fathers (who are they again?).
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« Reply #1887 on: March 02, 2012, 07:47:57 PM »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that both the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar were invented by non-Orthodox Romans  Huh ?

ES OUTRAGE, maybe the WCC can make a new calender for us Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1888 on: March 02, 2012, 08:27:36 PM »

Does it strike anyone else as odd that both the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar were invented by non-Orthodox Romans  Huh ?

ES OUTRAGE, maybe the WCC can make a new calender for us Roll Eyes
Actually, the Church--or at least some bishops within the Church--DID provide us a calendar. It's called the Revised Julian Calendar. Grin
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« Reply #1889 on: March 10, 2012, 12:42:42 AM »

Does the old calendar have leap years?
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