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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 204233 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1305 on: November 26, 2010, 06:12:04 PM »

I would like it if the whole church gradually switched to the New personally, but I would rather have everyone be together either way. This situation with two different calendars in the Church is totally unacceptable. For example, I still haven't started the Nativity Fast, and when I visit my mother's this weekend out of town then I will attend an OCA parish where they are on totally different saints and well into the fast. Totally bizarre and I hate it.

Tell me about it!  My wife attends an Antiochian parish and I attend a Serbian.  It would make for interesting Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners if we let it.  Fortunately, my wife prefers the Old Calendar fasting rules for Nativity.
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« Reply #1306 on: November 26, 2010, 06:18:42 PM »

The method in which it was introduced was wrong.
I think, had it been implemented through a worldwide council many of the objections would have been more limited. I much prefer the old calendar but if a proper council in the future called for the implantation of the new calendar then I would have to abide by the decision in order to maintain a clear conscience and since the issue does not directly affect the dogmas of the Church.

But WHY do you prefer it? That's what I don't get. It doesn't seem to have any bearing on my spiritual life one way or the other. I don't get why it does for others.

Very easy question for me.  I like having the Apostles Fast EVERY year.  I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.  And also, there was an event in my life that guided me to this decision, and I made a vow to the Theotokos to celebrate her feasts on the days she indicated to me during that event.
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« Reply #1307 on: November 26, 2010, 06:30:22 PM »

I would like it if the whole church gradually switched to the New personally, but I would rather have everyone be together either way. This situation with two different calendars in the Church is totally unacceptable. For example, I still haven't started the Nativity Fast, and when I visit my mother's this weekend out of town then I will attend an OCA parish where they are on totally different saints and well into the fast. Totally bizarre and I hate it.

Tell me about it!  My wife attends an Antiochian parish and I attend a Serbian.  It would make for interesting Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners if we let it.  Fortunately, my wife prefers the Old Calendar fasting rules for Nativity.

There are some advantages to having both. Once in awhile I cannot arrange my work schedule to accommodate weekday feasts in my New Calendar parish. So I go 13 days later to the Old Calendar parish in my neighborhood. As I've said, I'm not complaining about the two calendars. It's the vehemence of many old calendarists that I find disturbing and that I try to understand. I wonder: Am I missing something?
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« Reply #1308 on: November 26, 2010, 07:22:22 PM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?
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« Reply #1309 on: November 26, 2010, 07:46:21 PM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?

We have a big celebration for Theophany, which always feels to me like an antidote to the commercialism of the Christmas season. (Having the fast run concurrently with the big shopping season helps, too.) But it's hard for kids to do things differently from their friends. If it's important, we shouldn't compromise, but I don't want them to feel weird because of a cultural artifact. It has to be something worth standing up--and out--for. I'm not sure an ancient, inaccurate calendar invented by a pagan quite fits the mold, if you know what I mean. Especially when you're seven.

We've had instances in our local schools where kids have come back from Holy Week and been told they were lying about where they were, because the school thinks Holy Friday was a couple of weeks before. Sure, things like that are opportunities. But I don't know how many of those opportunities I can ask my seven-year-old to embrace.
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« Reply #1310 on: November 26, 2010, 07:56:10 PM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?

We have a big celebration for Theophany, which always feels to me like an antidote to the commercialism of the Christmas season. (Having the fast run concurrently with the big shopping season helps, too.) But it's hard for kids to do things differently from their friends. If it's important, we shouldn't compromise, but I don't want them to feel weird because of a cultural artifact. It has to be something worth standing up--and out--for. I'm not sure an ancient, inaccurate calendar invented by a pagan quite fits the mold, if you know what I mean. Especially when you're seven.

We've had instances in our local schools where kids have come back from Holy Week and been told they were lying about where they were, because the school thinks Holy Friday was a couple of weeks before. Sure, things like that are opportunities. But I don't know how many of those opportunities I can ask my seven-year-old to embrace.
Indeed!
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« Reply #1311 on: November 26, 2010, 11:00:19 PM »


As I've said, I'm not complaining about the two calendars. It's the vehemence of many old calendarists that I find disturbing and that I try to understand. I wonder: Am I missing something?

Perhaps.  But then again, perhaps you are better off for it.
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« Reply #1312 on: November 26, 2010, 11:07:33 PM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?

When we sanctified it the first time, those that were part of the farce were pagans.  Now, they call themselves Christian. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.  Our refusal to indulge in the farce that has become modern Christendom proves to the world that true Christians still exist.  In addition, I don't think that I buy all this "sanctification" BS.  I see little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord.  The only thing we may or may not have sanctified is the season or date, not the pagan celebrations. 
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« Reply #1313 on: November 26, 2010, 11:37:38 PM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?

When we sanctified it the first time, those that were part of the farce were pagans.  Now, they call themselves Christian. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.  Our refusal to indulge in the farce that has become modern Christendom proves to the world that true Christians still exist.  In addition, I don't think that I buy all this "sanctification" BS.  I see little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord.  The only thing we may or may not have sanctified is the season or date, not the pagan celebrations.  
I dare say that you see  "little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord" only because of the near extinction o a live and archaic folk culture here in the USA. Because of that Orthodoxy itself comes here in a neat and sanitized, purged of all paganism version, which is of course, a recent phenomenon.
In places where Church coexists with a lively, archaic folk culture elements of pagan origin  abound.
Historically, Orthodoxy has not been limited to what is in the books but, besides that, it has incorporated on a more or less official level an almost infinite array of local practices many of clearly pagan origins.
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« Reply #1314 on: November 27, 2010, 01:18:59 AM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?

When we sanctified it the first time, those that were part of the farce were pagans.  Now, they call themselves Christian. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.  Our refusal to indulge in the farce that has become modern Christendom proves to the world that true Christians still exist.  In addition, I don't think that I buy all this "sanctification" BS.  I see little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord.  The only thing we may or may not have sanctified is the season or date, not the pagan celebrations.  
I dare say that you see  "little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord" only because of the near extinction o a live and archaic folk culture here in the USA. Because of that Orthodoxy itself comes here in a neat and sanitized, purged of all paganism version, which is of course, a recent phenomenon.
In places where Church coexists with a lively, archaic folk culture elements of pagan origin  abound.
Historically, Orthodoxy has not been limited to what is in the books but, besides that, it has incorporated on a more or less official level an almost infinite array of local practices many of clearly pagan origins.

Good point.
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« Reply #1315 on: November 27, 2010, 02:23:55 AM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?

When we sanctified it the first time, those that were part of the farce were pagans.  Now, they call themselves Christian. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.  Our refusal to indulge in the farce that has become modern Christendom proves to the world that true Christians still exist.  In addition, I don't think that I buy all this "sanctification" BS.  I see little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord.  The only thing we may or may not have sanctified is the season or date, not the pagan celebrations.  
I dare say that you see  "little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord" only because of the near extinction o a live and archaic folk culture here in the USA.

My, my. You've been busy going through the length and bredth of this land to be able to make such a sweeping generalization.

Quote
Because of that Orthodoxy itself comes here in a neat and sanitized, purged of all paganism version, which is of course, a recent phenomenon.
So you are saying that the Orthodoxy in America is superior then, being "purged of all paganism."

Quote
In places where Church coexists with a lively, archaic folk culture elements of pagan origin  abound.
Are you bragging or complaining?

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Historically, Orthodoxy has not been limited to what is in the books but, besides that, it has incorporated on a more or less official level an almost infinite array of local practices many of clearly pagan origins.
Because Sir James George Frazier says so?
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« Reply #1316 on: November 27, 2010, 09:51:07 AM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?

When we sanctified it the first time, those that were part of the farce were pagans.  Now, they call themselves Christian. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.  Our refusal to indulge in the farce that has become modern Christendom proves to the world that true Christians still exist.  In addition, I don't think that I buy all this "sanctification" BS.  I see little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord.  The only thing we may or may not have sanctified is the season or date, not the pagan celebrations.  
I dare say that you see  "little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord" only because of the near extinction o a live and archaic folk culture here in the USA. Because of that Orthodoxy itself comes here in a neat and sanitized, purged of all paganism version, which is of course, a recent phenomenon.
In places where Church coexists with a lively, archaic folk culture elements of pagan origin  abound.
Historically, Orthodoxy has not been limited to what is in the books but, besides that, it has incorporated on a more or less official level an almost infinite array of local practices many of clearly pagan origins.

That is an excellent point, but you can't generalize about the Church in America. In those areas where thereremains a strong ethnic heritage those very customs are a vital part of the cycle of the holy day and in fact of all holy days. You would get a strong response from many of my Ukrainian and Greek friends on that point. One of the great wisdoms of the Fathers, both East AND West was the incorporation of existing local customs into Christian practice - a wisdom that some of our Orthodox brothers have forgotten, particularly in America.
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« Reply #1317 on: November 27, 2010, 10:46:32 AM »

I'm dreaming of a white satanic farce, just like the ones I used to know....
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« Reply #1318 on: November 27, 2010, 12:17:19 PM »

Sorry, but I find the whole 'demonizing' of Christmas on the new calendar argument to be offensive to our fellow Orthodox on the NC and to our good friends, neighbors and family who may be celebrating the Nativity of OUR Savior on December 25th. To me it is arrogant and cold to hold your nose up and say "My Christmas is holier than yours." I am on the OC and I don't mind, if my parish were NC, I wouldn't mind either. One final thing from me on this topic - when I do out and about on December 25th here in the northeast US it is uncannily quiet compared to the chaos and noise that surrounds our daily lives here. When we do to Church on January 7th and follow a school bus or two, a garbage truck and get stuck in a traffic jam.......Oh well...Best to all regardless!
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« Reply #1319 on: November 27, 2010, 01:48:46 PM »

I also like having the Nativity of our Lord celebrated apart from the satanic farce that has become Christmas in the USA.
Christmas started out as a satanic farce, yet we sanctified it and made it the feast of our Lord's Nativity. Why can't the Church do that again? Why must we flee from the farce this time?

When we sanctified it the first time, those that were part of the farce were pagans.  Now, they call themselves Christian. I am sorry that you do not see the difference.  Our refusal to indulge in the farce that has become modern Christendom proves to the world that true Christians still exist.  In addition, I don't think that I buy all this "sanctification" BS.  I see little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord.  The only thing we may or may not have sanctified is the season or date, not the pagan celebrations.  
I dare say that you see  "little paganism left in the cycle of services that make up the Nativity of our Lord" only because of the near extinction o a live and archaic folk culture here in the USA.

My, my. You've been busy going through the length and bredth of this land to be able to make such a sweeping generalization.

Quote
Because of that Orthodoxy itself comes here in a neat and sanitized, purged of all paganism version, which is of course, a recent phenomenon.
So you are saying that the Orthodoxy in America is superior then, being "purged of all paganism."

Quote
In places where Church coexists with a lively, archaic folk culture elements of pagan origin  abound.
Are you bragging or complaining?

Quote
Historically, Orthodoxy has not been limited to what is in the books but, besides that, it has incorporated on a more or less official level an almost infinite array of local practices many of clearly pagan origins.
Because Sir James George Frazier says so?
You sound like a broken mill as we say, ialmisry.
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« Reply #1320 on: November 27, 2010, 03:12:11 PM »

Quote
My, my. You've been busy going through the length and bredth of this land to be able to make such a sweeping generalization.
No, that's rather common knowledge; plus the folk culture of this country was already quite influenced by a number of radical Protestant sects that further diminished whatever archaic pagan elements were preserved by the British or Sottish or Irish cultures. What you have left now, all across America-and spreading throughout the world- is a general cultural deracination/ amnesia, the void of which is filled by consumerism.
For that direct your thanks to capitalism/neoliberalism and Protestantism.Quote
Quote
Are you bragging or complaining?

Well, seeing the havoc wrecked by the combined forces of capitalism and Protestantism, I am only grateful for those pockets and areas still somehow spared of this.
Quote
Because Sir James George Frazier says so?
No. There are plenty of others that have said so.
Before knowing of any I've seen it with my own eyes, heard it from Parents, grand-parents, (great) great-aunts and uncles, neighbours etc.
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« Reply #1321 on: November 27, 2010, 04:11:06 PM »

Old Calendar is better because my birthday isn't in lent accordingly to it.
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« Reply #1322 on: November 27, 2010, 04:19:08 PM »

Old Calendar is better because my birthday isn't in lent accordingly to it.
I understand your point. Even though I do think the new calendar is more appropriate, I have this little hope that changing Pascha won't happen until at least 2052. Pascha as presently calculated will coincide with my birthday in 2051 - my 99th!
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« Reply #1323 on: November 27, 2010, 06:05:00 PM »

For all you apocalypts:

And December 2012 has come… And an asteroid has appeared in the sky. And it started falling on Earth. And the panic set up on Earth, Aztec calendar ended, apocalypses is coming!

And the asteroid fell down on the stone asteroid calendar. And it was dust. And it was an explosion wave and a new Aztec calendar appeared instead of the old one – till 32 118. And another smaller stone was found nearby. And it was an inscription on it, "Next calendar will be sent to your planet on the day when the old calendar ends. Thank you for using our stone calendars!"

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=mosaic&root=3&page=3

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« Reply #1324 on: November 27, 2010, 06:11:10 PM »

For all you apocalypts:

And December 2012 has come… And an asteroid has appeared in the sky. And it started falling on Earth. And the panic set up on Earth, Aztec calendar ended, apocalypses is coming!

And the asteroid fell down on the stone asteroid calendar. And it was dust. And it was an explosion wave and a new Aztec calendar appeared instead of the old one – till 32 118. And another smaller stone was found nearby. And it was an inscription on it, "Next calendar will be sent to your planet on the day when the old calendar ends. Thank you for using our stone calendars!"

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=mosaic&root=3&page=3

LOL!
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« Reply #1325 on: November 27, 2010, 06:19:14 PM »

Old Calendar Thanksgiving is a lot holier than the satanic farce of New Calendar Thanksgiving.  Glad I'll be celebrating it in about 10 days!
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« Reply #1326 on: November 28, 2010, 02:24:30 AM »

The tangent on the evils of capitalism has been split off and moved to Non-Religious Topics.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=31636.0
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« Reply #1327 on: April 30, 2011, 08:31:45 AM »

Christ is Risen.  On 11/24 April we celebrate Pascha together as Orthodox Christians and by the Nativity, 75% of Orthodox Christendom is still deep in the Nativity Fast while the rest are feasting on turkey, pork etc.  Whether you call the calendar, "New" or "Revised (Julian)", new calendarists are on the same calendar until 2800.  New calendarists in the main are quick to say that the calendar is not important - that we need to concentrate on what unites us etc.

The fact is the adoption of the new calendar by a small minority numerically - but importantly championed by the modernising Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis who supported the schismatic Russian "Living Church" has done untold harm.  If it is correct that when Pascha falls on or after 21 April - like this year, then the Ss. Peter and Paul Fast cannot be observed in the new/revised calendar Orthodox Churches,  as the Feast day occurs BEFORE the Sunday of All Saints then this is an appalling abandonment of traditional Orthodox faith and practice. Convenient if you have a 'Living Church' agenda of modernising, doing away with fasts and traditional clergy attire etc.
 
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/quovadis.aspx
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Let us pause to reflect on the period of history beginning in 1922, when Patriarch Meletios IV (Metaxakis), an infamous modernist and Mason, ascended to the Patriarchal throne. In 1923 he summoned the so-called "Pan-Orthodox Congress," which introduced the Gregorian calendar and discussed the possibility of a second marriage for priests. Concerning these changes, Metropolitan Antony (Khrapovitsky) wrote, "From the moment of that sorrowful Pan-Orthodox Congress of Patriarch Meletios (who gave such a self-proclaimed title to a meeting of four to six bishops and a few priests, without the participation of the other three Patriarchs), from the time of that un-Orthodox Congress, an act of vandalism was wrought against Orthodoxy. Many reforms were proposed, which the Church with terrible, binding curses had forbidden; reforms such as married bishops, a second marriage for clergy and the abolition of fasts. It is true that this un-Orthodox Congress did not succeed in officially promulgating all these impious violations of Church laws, limiting itself to proposing the institution of the New Style calendar and the celebration of all the holy days thirteen days earlier than proscribed, while leaving the Paschalia untouched. This senseless and pointless concession to Masonry and to Papism, which long ago had tried to institute such a change of calendar in their attempt to totally absorb the Unia in Latinism (the main external difference between the Uniates and Latins is the Old Style calendar of the former), violates the Apostolic ordinance of the Sts. Peter and Paul fast, for if the New Style calendar is followed, when Pascha falls on April 21 (O.S.) or later, the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul occurs before the Sunday of All Saints, and therefore the preceding Fast is totally eliminated!"

I cannot fathom why the new calendarists think that this is not hugely significant to the majority of Orthodoxy who keep the Church's traditional (Old) Calendar?  I cannot understand why they think that putting an allegedly more scientific calendar ahead of the saints and martyrs of the Church who surely keep the Church's calendar is proper.  

With the stroke of a pen, Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis in that year made the Church - or at least a small but prominent minority in the Church) jump forward 13 days, losing a plethora of canonical saints observances, according to the Typika and what was gained?  Disunity.  The future schism of traditionalist clergy and laity who were sick to their soul with grief at this appalling modernism that served no spiritual purpose.  Who gained from the schisms and dissension and lack of unity between those that keep the Church's time honoured Julian Calendar and those who chose to modernise? The Evil One.  

The new calendar is not just about dates.  It is a cause for repentance and for the bishops and leaders who wrongly supported this innovation to say that they got it plain wrong. Of course Old Calendarists who caused pain and grief and in some instances schism also have much to repent about.

New calendarists of whatever version you are using - please ask the Lord to guide you in relation to the question of returning to the traditional Orthodox calendar.



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« Reply #1328 on: April 30, 2011, 08:38:44 AM »

For my part, without going into too much detail, I think almost all the "old calendarist" arguments against the new calendar per se are weak and that the most compelling argument against the change to the new calendar is the division that it wrought in the Church.

So yay, we get to celebrate Christmas in time with the heterodox instead of our orthodox brothers and sisters -- for what real benefit?
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« Reply #1329 on: April 30, 2011, 09:00:04 AM »

Yawn...
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« Reply #1330 on: April 30, 2011, 09:51:38 AM »

Yawn...

Post of the month! Smiley
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« Reply #1331 on: April 30, 2011, 10:02:00 AM »

If it is correct that when Pascha falls on or after 21 April - like this year, then the Ss. Peter and Paul Fast cannot be observed in the new/revised calendar Orthodox Churches,  as the Feast day occurs BEFORE the Sunday of All Saints then this is an appalling abandonment of traditional Orthodox faith and practice.

All Saints falls on June 19 on the new calendar this year. I do see the issue here though on the rare occasions that the cycle of feasts/fasts may be disrupted, and it's only an issue becasue the "new calendar" isn't a real calendar, but a hybrid. I'm sure this particular issue isn't a problem in Finland.

Quote
I cannot fathom why the new calendarists think that this is not hugely significant to the majority of Orthodoxy who keep the Church's traditional (Old) Calendar?  I cannot understand why they think that putting an allegedly more scientific calendar ahead of the saints and martyrs of the Church who surely keep the Church's calendar is proper.

I thought commemorations were kept according to the calendar, not the other way around.

Quote
With the stroke of a pen, Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis in that year made the Church - or at least a small but prominent minority in the Church) jump forward 13 days, losing a plethora of canonical saints observances, according to the Typika and what was gained?

Can you tell me exactly which 13 days were skipped in 1923? I tried to look it up and couldn't find it. I do find it regrettable that observances were skipped in the conversion process. I don't know if I would consider 13/365 (less than 4%) to be a "plethora", but that may depend on the particular commemorations (for example skipping a major feast day would be a bigger problem than commemorating a particular icon that may possibly be commemorated more than once a year).

Quote
Disunity.  The future schism of traditionalist clergy and laity who were sick to their soul with grief at this appalling modernism that served no spiritual purpose.  Who gained from the schisms and dissension and lack of unity between those that keep the Church's time honoured Julian Calendar and those who chose to modernise? The Evil One.

Who committed the schism and willfully chose to break Church unity?

Quote
The new calendar is not just about dates.  It is a cause for repentance and for the bishops and leaders who wrongly supported this innovation to say that they got it plain wrong. Of course Old Calendarists who caused pain and grief and in some instances schism also have much to repent about.

New calendarists of whatever version you are using - please ask the Lord to guide you in relation to the question of returning to the traditional Orthodox calendar.


I'm sorry, but I don't see that a calendar change necessarily has to mean that the Church has changed her message. Christ did not celebrate a single feast that I know of according to the Roman (old) calendar. The apostles did not celebrate Pascha acoording to the Roman (old) calendar. No one celebrated Pascha all at the same time until the fourth century. Christmas wasn't celebrated (still isn't by the Armenians even though they aren't in communion with us but still use the more ancient observance) on Dec 25 until the fourth century. The Dormition was widely unkown until the fourth century and not widely commemorated until the seventh or eighth century.

Please forgive me for disagreeing with you and if I have not chosen the best words to express myself, but I just don't see the calendar as a faith issue.
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« Reply #1332 on: April 30, 2011, 10:16:35 AM »

I'm with ya OP.  How can somebody make 13 days vanish into thin air?
Poof.

Then so many hold feast days as significant and calculate days of some of the feasts with it.

I'm not trying to be crude, but I truly feel the issue here is people do not want to address certain issues within their church "jurisdictions".  It's too difficult, too hard to convince others, and many are happy in the warm cushy spot.

The question is if Orthodoxy is the "One true church" that can be relied on as "unchanged" since the 7th council?
13 Days vanishing into thin air sounds like change to me.  My opinion of course.

New calendar churches even celebrate Pascha at the wrong time for most years.  That's change. 
Will it do any good to tell others?  Not if they can't see past the bricks and mortar blocking their comfort zone.

You want to know the sad part about it?  All it would take is for New Calendar Bishops to simply say "enough is enough", take out their pens, and go back to the way it was originally.  The churches would go right back where they should be and fall in line immediately.  It's really a much simpler solution than most think. 

Then the New Calendar churches could celebrate Pascha all the time with the rest of the Orthodox in the world.  That would be nice.  Instead they will be celebrating Pascha at the same time with Roman Catholics most of the time.  It hurts & it's true.
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« Reply #1333 on: April 30, 2011, 10:26:07 AM »

The question is if Orthodoxy is the "One true church" that can be relied on as "unchanged" since the 7th council?
13 Days vanishing into thin air sounds like change to me.  My opinion of course.

The faith is unchanged since the day of Pentecost. The expression of that faith develops over time as history requires to settle controversy and saints are added to the calendar.

Quote
New calendar churches even celebrate Pascha at the wrong time for most years.  

...

Then the New Calendar churches could celebrate Pascha all the time with the rest of the Orthodox in the world.  That would be nice.  Instead they will be celebrating Pascha at the same time with Roman Catholics most of the time.  It hurts & it's true.

The change does not affect Pascha. The only church that is affected in this manner is Finland because they calculate it according to the Gregorian, everyone else calculates Pascha according to the Julian.
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« Reply #1334 on: April 30, 2011, 10:51:52 AM »

Would it be wrong to assume that the Ethiopians, Indians, etc. don't use the Gregorian, Julian, or revised Julian calendars, and have always used different calendars?
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« Reply #1335 on: April 30, 2011, 10:57:46 AM »

New calendar churches even celebrate Pascha at the wrong time for most years.  That's change. 
Will it do any good to tell others?  Not if they can't see past the bricks and mortar blocking their comfort zone.

You want to know the sad part about it?  All it would take is for New Calendar Bishops to simply say "enough is enough", take out their pens, and go back to the way it was originally.  The churches would go right back where they should be and fall in line immediately.  It's really a much simpler solution than most think. 

Then the New Calendar churches could celebrate Pascha all the time with the rest of the Orthodox in the world.  That would be nice.  Instead they will be celebrating Pascha at the same time with Roman Catholics most of the time.  It hurts & it's true.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The reason the New Calendar churches don't always have an Apostle's fast is because they have kept the Old Calendar Pascha specifically so they do celebrate the feast with the whole Orthodox world.

I like the Old Calendar just fine, and would likely attend an OC church if that was an option, but I don't lose an ounce of sleep when I commune in a New Calendar church. Frankly, I would like to see the Church all get on the same calendar, even though that would effectively end 74 percent of trolling on Orthodox Internet message boards. I am sympathetic to a lot of OC arguements, but I've gotten to the point where I can only yawn when some neophyte starts anathemizing my bishop because we celebrate Dormition on actual August 15.
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« Reply #1336 on: April 30, 2011, 12:37:54 PM »

The hybrid situation mentioned above is the culprit. Not the New Calendar on its own. March 21 was fixed as the date of the spring equinox, based on the best scientific information available in an earlier century. From this date Pascha and its related feasts are calculated. Unfortunately, the Julian Calendar does not keep an astronomically accurate reckoning of the equinox. I suppose it boils down to "What was the intention of the Council: to fix the reckoning of Pascha on March 21 of the calendar then in use or at the spring equinox?" If one says "spring equinox", then "March 21" will need to adjust accordingly. My own position is that the calendar should be our servant, not our master.
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« Reply #1337 on: April 30, 2011, 01:49:17 PM »

Quote from: genesisone
My own position is that the calendar should be our servant, not our master.

Well said.

Quotes edited - MK.
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« Reply #1338 on: April 30, 2011, 03:22:14 PM »

Here we go again.

Despite common understanding of the Pan-Orthodox Congress of 1923, "With a stroke of the pen, Patriarch Meletios" of Constantinople DID NOT make "the Church jump forward 13 days..."  The minutes of the Pan-Orthodox Congress, (which he had named a Pan-Orthodox Conference, but a representative of one of the Holy Orthodox Churches [Serbia, I think] moved to change the name of the during the progress of the meetings, which was passed by the representatives) clearly state, having been articulated by His All Holiness, that the decisions of the Congress would be sent to the Most Holy Orthodox Churches for consideration by their respective Synods or their Primates, depending on the protocol of each Church.  It was unfortunately, the government of Greece, which could not fathom commemorating Greek Independence Day apart from the Feast of the Annunciation to the Theotokos, that pressured the Archbishop of Athens to pressure the Ecumenical Patriarchate to change to the so called Revised Julian Calendar, after Patriarch Meletios had resigned from the Ecumenical Throne's primacy.  The Ecumenical Patriarch was an opponent of the calendar change, but succumbed to the Church of Greece's pressure because of the Patriarchate's financial dependence on the Greek government (the Patriarchate's financial position was desperate at the time due to the Asia Minor catastrophe and the population exchange required by the Treaty of Lussane), a result of the Patriarchate having ceded vast property holdings in Greece to the Greek State, in exchange for perpetual financial support.
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« Reply #1339 on: April 30, 2011, 03:28:26 PM »

Christ is Risen.  On 11/24 April we celebrate Pascha together as Orthodox Christians and by the Nativity, 75% of Orthodox Christendom is still deep in the Nativity Fast while the rest are feasting on turkey, pork etc.  Whether you call the calendar, "New" or "Revised (Julian)", new calendarists are on the same calendar until 2800.  New calendarists in the main are quick to say that the calendar is not important - that we need to concentrate on what unites us etc.

The fact is the adoption of the new calendar by a small minority numerically - but importantly championed by the modernising Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis who supported the schismatic Russian "Living Church" has done untold harm.  If it is correct that when Pascha falls on or after 21 April - like this year, then the Ss. Peter and Paul Fast cannot be observed in the new/revised calendar Orthodox Churches,  as the Feast day occurs BEFORE the Sunday of All Saints then this is an appalling abandonment of traditional Orthodox faith and practice. Convenient if you have a 'Living Church' agenda of modernising, doing away with fasts and traditional clergy attire etc.
 
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/quovadis.aspx
Quote
Let us pause to reflect on the period of history beginning in 1922, when Patriarch Meletios IV (Metaxakis), an infamous modernist and Mason, ascended to the Patriarchal throne. In 1923 he summoned the so-called "Pan-Orthodox Congress," which introduced the Gregorian calendar and discussed the possibility of a second marriage for priests. Concerning these changes, Metropolitan Antony (Khrapovitsky) wrote, "From the moment of that sorrowful Pan-Orthodox Congress of Patriarch Meletios (who gave such a self-proclaimed title to a meeting of four to six bishops and a few priests, without the participation of the other three Patriarchs), from the time of that un-Orthodox Congress, an act of vandalism was wrought against Orthodoxy. Many reforms were proposed, which the Church with terrible, binding curses had forbidden; reforms such as married bishops, a second marriage for clergy and the abolition of fasts. It is true that this un-Orthodox Congress did not succeed in officially promulgating all these impious violations of Church laws, limiting itself to proposing the institution of the New Style calendar and the celebration of all the holy days thirteen days earlier than proscribed, while leaving the Paschalia untouched. This senseless and pointless concession to Masonry and to Papism, which long ago had tried to institute such a change of calendar in their attempt to totally absorb the Unia in Latinism (the main external difference between the Uniates and Latins is the Old Style calendar of the former), violates the Apostolic ordinance of the Sts. Peter and Paul fast, for if the New Style calendar is followed, when Pascha falls on April 21 (O.S.) or later, the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul occurs before the Sunday of All Saints, and therefore the preceding Fast is totally eliminated!"

I cannot fathom why the new calendarists think that this is not hugely significant to the majority of Orthodoxy who keep the Church's traditional (Old) Calendar?  I cannot understand why they think that putting an allegedly more scientific calendar ahead of the saints and martyrs of the Church who surely keep the Church's calendar is proper.  

With the stroke of a pen, Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis in that year made the Church - or at least a small but prominent minority in the Church) jump forward 13 days, losing a plethora of canonical saints observances, according to the Typika and what was gained?  Disunity.  The future schism of traditionalist clergy and laity who were sick to their soul with grief at this appalling modernism that served no spiritual purpose.  Who gained from the schisms and dissension and lack of unity between those that keep the Church's time honoured Julian Calendar and those who chose to modernise? The Evil One.  

The new calendar is not just about dates.  It is a cause for repentance and for the bishops and leaders who wrongly supported this innovation to say that they got it plain wrong. Of course Old Calendarists who caused pain and grief and in some instances schism also have much to repent about.

New calendarists of whatever version you are using - please ask the Lord to guide you in relation to the question of returning to the traditional Orthodox calendar.

Thank you.  An excellent plea for a return to the old calendar.
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« Reply #1340 on: April 30, 2011, 03:33:23 PM »

I'm with ya OP.  How can somebody make 13 days vanish into thin air?
Poof.

Then so many hold feast days as significant and calculate days of some of the feasts with it.

I'm not trying to be crude, but I truly feel the issue here is people do not want to address certain issues within their church "jurisdictions".  It's too difficult, too hard to convince others, and many are happy in the warm cushy spot.

The question is if Orthodoxy is the "One true church" that can be relied on as "unchanged" since the 7th council?
13 Days vanishing into thin air sounds like change to me.  My opinion of course.

New calendar churches even celebrate Pascha at the wrong time for most years.  That's change.  
Will it do any good to tell others?  Not if they can't see past the bricks and mortar blocking their comfort zone.

You want to know the sad part about it?  All it would take is for New Calendar Bishops to simply say "enough is enough", take out their pens, and go back to the way it was originally.  The churches would go right back where they should be and fall in line immediately.  It's really a much simpler solution than most think.  

Then the New Calendar churches could celebrate Pascha all the time with the rest of the Orthodox in the world.  That would be nice.  Instead they will be celebrating Pascha at the same time with Roman Catholics most of the time.  It hurts & it's true.
What calendar are you using that we New Calendarists celebrate Easter with the West so frequently?

I've got news for you. Those recent years that the New Calendarists celebrated Easter with the West, so did the Old Calendarists.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 03:33:33 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1341 on: April 30, 2011, 03:43:42 PM »

I cannot fathom why the new calendarists think that this is not hugely significant to the majority of Orthodoxy who keep the Church's traditional (Old) Calendar?  I cannot understand why they think that putting an allegedly more scientific calendar ahead of the saints and martyrs of the Church who surely keep the Church's calendar is proper.
Maybe because when the so-called "Church Calendar", the "calendar of the saints and martyrs", was originally drafted, it was put together with scientific accuracy in mind. Why, then, should we now throw away scientific accuracy and allow for a situation where we could all eventually celebrate one Pascha to follow immediately after the summer/winter solstice?
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« Reply #1342 on: April 30, 2011, 04:03:26 PM »

The only logical ways to resolve this is either:

1) Use the Julian calendar for historical reasons, or
2) Use the Gregorian calendar for accuracy reasons

The Revised Julian calendar is a mess.

Personally I tend to favor switching to the the Gregorian calendar because a calendar is a form of measurement, and forms of measurement are supposed to be accurate. It reminds me of a joke I once heard about a KJV-Only Protestant: "If Elizabethan English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" Anachronism for its own sake is not helpful.

Online I've read mystical rubbish about "the Church calendar is outside of time and space". If the Fathers had the technology we have today, they would have created the Gregorian calendar in the first place. They didn't make an inaccurate calendar to be mystical, they did it because it was the best they could do at the time. Today we see the calendars drift in relation to each other, and someday they will be 14 days apart, then 15, etc. Eventually maybe we could have a "Nativity-Pascha" because the Julian calendar will have drifted so much relative to the seasons. (Talk about innovation.)

Or we can go back to the Julian all together and have our heritage, if nothing else. But the Revised Julian is an example of a bad compromise that broke more than it fixed.
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« Reply #1343 on: April 30, 2011, 04:17:54 PM »

Interesting that I almost never hear OO comment on this issue; calendar use in the OO Tradition is even more divided.
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« Reply #1344 on: April 30, 2011, 04:36:46 PM »

The only logical ways to resolve this is either:

1) Use the Julian calendar for historical reasons, or
2) Use the Gregorian calendar for accuracy reasons

The Revised Julian calendar is a mess.

Personally I tend to favor switching to the the Gregorian calendar because a calendar is a form of measurement, and forms of measurement are supposed to be accurate. It reminds me of a joke I once heard about a KJV-Only Protestant: "If Elizabethan English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" Anachronism for its own sake is not helpful.

Online I've read mystical rubbish about "the Church calendar is outside of time and space". If the Fathers had the technology we have today, they would have created the Gregorian calendar in the first place. They didn't make an inaccurate calendar to be mystical, they did it because it was the best they could do at the time. Today we see the calendars drift in relation to each other, and someday they will be 14 days apart, then 15, etc. Eventually maybe we could have a "Nativity-Pascha" because the Julian calendar will have drifted so much relative to the seasons. (Talk about innovation.)

Or we can go back to the Julian all together and have our heritage, if nothing else. But the Revised Julian is an example of a bad compromise that broke more than it fixed.
Could it be that what you call the Revised Julian Calendar is actually your misunderstanding? I see this all the time in calendar debates. In fact, someone else brought it up earlier on this thread. Celebration of the Menologion on the "Gregorian" Calendar and of the Paschalion on the Julian Calendar is NOT the definition of the Revised Julian Calendar. We New Calendarists already follow the Revised Julian Calendar for the Menologion; the REAL confusion is that we still use the old Julian Calendar for Pascha. Our hope is that we (as in all the Orthodox churches) will eventually switch to the Revised Julian Calendar, even for Pascha, and stop using this monstrous hybrid you mistakenly call the Revised Julian Calendar.
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« Reply #1345 on: April 30, 2011, 05:41:19 PM »

Ditto.
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« Reply #1346 on: April 30, 2011, 06:17:03 PM »

I agree with you, SubdeaconDavid in 75% of what you say.

...

But what do you want me to do SubdeaconDavid?
What should I do?
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« Reply #1347 on: April 30, 2011, 06:30:36 PM »

I smell a consensus!
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« Reply #1348 on: April 30, 2011, 07:41:54 PM »

New Calendar... Old Calendar...

The church used the old calendar for centuries.

1923, that changed.

I don't know how much more clear this can be.

I guess if some believe that the church "evolves" in our modern day without a complete council, that's why we have women worshiping without head coverings (1st Corinthians 11 anybody?), New calendar, priests not keeping Nazirite Oaths (beards), and now... why not.... Let's start worshiping with RC's and Protestants.... or how about pagan tribes (Go to youtube and search "NWO ecumenism" without quotes).  Sure I see evolution.  Straight into complete heresy.

Sorry if I offend, I'm speaking with a sincere heart.
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« Reply #1349 on: April 30, 2011, 07:43:21 PM »

New Calendar... Old Calendar...

The church used the old calendar for centuries.

1923, that changed.

I don't know how much more clear this can be.

I guess if some believe that the church "evolves" in our modern day without a complete council, that's why we have women worshiping without head coverings (1st Corinthians 11 anybody?), New calendar, priests not keeping Nazirite Oaths (beards), and now... why not.... Let's start worshiping with RC's and Protestants.... or how about pagan tribes (Go to youtube and search "NWO ecumenism" without quotes).  Sure I see evolution.  Straight into complete heresy.

Sorry if I offend, I'm speaking with a sincere heart.

Sounds like you're having trouble discerning small T traditions from big T.
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