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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 204571 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1260 on: August 06, 2010, 12:13:40 AM »

Yes, so we do not need to use a calendar of the world.
I thought that every calendar was of the world. All calendars have to do with time passing as it is seen in this world.
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« Reply #1261 on: August 06, 2010, 01:00:48 AM »

Allowing state powers to cause a rupture in the Church is not.

Hear hear.
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« Reply #1262 on: August 06, 2010, 07:06:48 AM »

PtA, Re. Reply No. 1251

I have no on-line sources, neither can I locate the books I've read regarding this topic.  From memory, I will note the books, the titles of which I have not capitalized, because I can't recall them exactly.  What follows is a paraphrase of what I recall the titles to be.

the old calendar church of Greece, Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna, et. al., Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, publisher
There is another monograph, published by CTOS, about the 70th anniversary of the pan-Orthodox congress of 1923.

Orthodoxy 101... by Fr. Evagoras Constantides, Narthex Press

the 1923 pan-orthodox congress, Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute
(Includes minutes of the various sessions of the Congress in English.)

From Mars Hill to Manhattan..., by Fr. George Papaioannou
(later Bishop George of New Jersey), Light & Life Publishing Co.
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« Reply #1263 on: August 06, 2010, 06:45:05 PM »

Yes, so we do not need to use a calendar of the world.
I thought that every calendar was of the world. All calendars have to do with time passing as it is seen in this world.

You have a point. There is something to be said for the fact that the Old Calendars were actually derived from civil calendars.
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« Reply #1264 on: August 06, 2010, 06:50:21 PM »

Yes, so we do not need to use a calendar of the world.
I thought that every calendar was of the world. All calendars have to do with time passing as it is seen in this world.

You have a point. There is something to be said for the fact that the Old Calendars were actually derived from civil calendars.
Yes, the Church has been very good about taking the things of this world and sanctifying them.
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« Reply #1265 on: August 06, 2010, 07:15:32 PM »

The Gregorian calendar, on the other hand, I believe was created by a religious community. laugh
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« Reply #1266 on: November 12, 2010, 06:33:40 PM »

A little while back here in the UK the Anglican church actually celebrated its Easter before Passover - now that's a strange calendar.
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« Reply #1267 on: November 24, 2010, 12:13:52 PM »

It pains me to see modern Orthodoxy divided like this.  I pray that God would lead us to the truth in all of this.  Personally on the calendar, I agree with what the Old Calenderists say.  I think it was a very bad idea to change the calendar when it messes up the church liturgical cycle.  I do think that we can have different calendars and still be Orthodox in belief and praxis.

Me, too. I wish I understood the issue better. Julius Caesar was the Chief Pontiff, i.e., the head priest of the Roman state religion. So the Julian calendar was a product of the chief priest of the pagans, literally. How is this preferable to the Gregorian reforms? Is it that anything is better than a calendar with the name of a pope attached? Whatever its origin, the Julian calendar is inaccurate. Is all this just a reactionary dislike of anything that puts us in sync with non-Orthodox? I keep looking for a doctrinal argument that makes sense or is persuasive. So far...
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« Reply #1268 on: November 24, 2010, 12:37:33 PM »

Hi Hermogenes and welcome to the forum. I m not going to answer your question directly but I should point out that, if you run a search on this issue, you will be richly rewarded.
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« Reply #1269 on: November 24, 2010, 01:36:26 PM »

Note for posterity: It's a wonderful thing that Fr. Anastasios shows the same tolerance for us Revised Calendar folk now that he's in an "Old Calendarist" jurisdiction that he showed for the "Old Calendarists" when he was in a Revised Calendar jurisdiction.
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« Reply #1270 on: November 24, 2010, 02:27:55 PM »

Hi Hermogenes and welcome to the forum. I m not going to answer your question directly but I should point out that, if you run a search on this issue, you will be richly rewarded.

I have done so, and I was much more richly rewarded than I could digest. Passions run so high on this subject, and I honestly cannot get the theology behind preferring a pagan calendar.
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« Reply #1271 on: November 24, 2010, 03:00:28 PM »

Hi Hermogenes and welcome to the forum. I m not going to answer your question directly but I should point out that, if you run a search on this issue, you will be richly rewarded.

I have done so, and I was much more richly rewarded than I could digest. Passions run so high on this subject, and I honestly cannot get the theology behind preferring a pagan calendar.

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.
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« Reply #1272 on: November 24, 2010, 07:40:33 PM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?
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« Reply #1273 on: November 24, 2010, 07:44:23 PM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

I want to say clearly, I don't have a problem with people following the Old Calendar (I'm sure those of you reading this will be greatly relieved). I just don't get the vehemence with which the point is contested.
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« Reply #1274 on: November 24, 2010, 08:19:18 PM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate, then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-) If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's, why should ours when we are called to not be of the World?
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« Reply #1275 on: November 24, 2010, 08:46:36 PM »

Here is a comprehensive treatment of the issue from an Old Calendarist perspective:

http://www.hotca.org/orthodoxy/orthodox-awareness/203-the-calendar-question

I won't be participating further in this thread, however, as there are already several other threads on this topic on this board, and the article I am linking to above contains answers to a lot of the objections that get raised by people in these threads.

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« Reply #1276 on: November 24, 2010, 10:15:20 PM »

Julius Caesar was the Chief Pontiff, i.e., the head priest of the Roman state religion.

Not only that. When I was in Greece, I was told by a hieromonk from an Athonite-rule new-calendar monastery that Julius Caesar was actually persecuting Christians. Cheesy
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« Reply #1277 on: November 25, 2010, 12:27:02 PM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate, then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-) If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's, why should ours when we are called to not be of the World?

Exactly.  There is no reason for the ecclesiastical calendar to match the civil, and the fact that the majority of EO Christians and nearly all of the OO Christians follow the Old Calendar is proof of this.  Not only this, the vast majority of Christians through out the ages have followed this calendar.  The liturgical Calendar was known to be out of synchronization with the solar cycle for centuries.  What does it matter?  Render to the civil authorities what is theirs, and to God and the Saints what is theirs.  If it is so important that one celebrates Christmas with the Latins, then do so.  But to destroy the unity of the Orthodox Church is inexcusable.  And yes, it was the minority that introduced the New Calendar that destroyed that unity, not those that chose to stay with what had been done for more than a dozen centuries.  Perhaps that is why the Old Calendar is defended with such vehemency, and why there is no desire by those on the Old Calendar to "baptize" what has torn the unity of the Church. 
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« Reply #1278 on: November 25, 2010, 02:24:05 PM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate,

one on which the spring equinox has equal day and night, as the names states.

Quote
then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-)
I'd first ask you to defend the presence of Kyriopascha and the Apostles Fast as proof of accuracy.

Btw, we've discussed these problems before. They come from using a mixed, rather than new, calendar.

Quote
If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's,

The Jewish, Muslim and the various Buddhist (you assume they all use the same one) use the Hebrew, Arab and Indic, Chinese, etc. civil calendars. That they didn't take the Roman civil calendar doesn't make then any less "of the World."

Quote
why should ours

Because Sun, Moon, Earth, day, night, month, equinox etc. are things of the World.

Quote
when we are called to not be of the World?
Then we can celebrate Pascha by meditating like brains in a jar.
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« Reply #1279 on: November 25, 2010, 03:41:22 PM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate, then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-) If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's, why should ours when we are called to not be of the World?

Exactly.  There is no reason for the ecclesiastical calendar to match the civil,

except that the Orthodox Churches, until 1875, have always done so.  The Bolsheviks didn't celebrate their October Revolution on November 7 (1917) out of reverence for the Fathers.

Quote
and the fact that the majority of EO Christians and nearly all of the OO Christians follow the Old Calendar is proof of this.

It only proves the problem when one large Church (Russian and Ethiopia respectively) throws your numbers off.

Quote
  Not only this, the vast majority of Christians through out the ages have followed this calendar.

Not exactly. Not all have used the Julian, those which did did not have the same New Year date, did not use the same eras, etc.

Quote
The liturgical Calendar was known to be out of ynchronization with the solar cycle for centuries. 

Oh? When are the first instances of evidence of this awareness?

Quote
What does it matter?

Ask the Fathers of Nicea. They thought it important enough to straighten out.

Quote
  Render to the civil authorities what is theirs, and to God and the Saints what is theirs. 

Since God made the Sun, the Earth, and set the latter to spin on its axis on a twilt around the latter, and the astronomers the civil authorities sponsered to observe those motions came up with the calendar that the Saints adopted, we are going to need Solomon to split that one.  The Ecclesiastical New Year, for instance, comes from the Roman fiscal new year, i.e. the tax indiction.


Quote
If it is so important that one celebrates Christmas with the Latins, then do so.

The Latins have nothing to do with it. Except that the same authority which issued the Julian calendar issued the Gregorain one as well.

Quote
But to destroy the unity of the Orthodox Church is inexcusable.

As Pope St. Victor found out.

Quote
And yes, it was the minority that introduced the New Calendar that destroyed that unity, not those that chose to stay with what had been done for more than a dozen centuries.  Perhaps that is why the Old Calendar is defended with such vehemency, and why there is no desire by those on the Old Calendar to "baptize" what has torn the unity of the Church. 
The Fathers had no problem baptizing the work of the pagan Caesars which spilt the martyrs' blood.

As for minority, Athanasius contra mundi.
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« Reply #1280 on: November 25, 2010, 04:02:58 PM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate, then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-) If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's, why should ours when we are called to not be of the World?

Exactly.  There is no reason for the ecclesiastical calendar to match the civil,

except that the Orthodox Churches, until 1875, have always done so.  The Bolsheviks didn't celebrate their October Revolution on November 7 (1917) out of reverence for the Fathers.

Quote
and the fact that the majority of EO Christians and nearly all of the OO Christians follow the Old Calendar is proof of this.

It only proves the problem when one large Church (Russian and Ethiopia respectively) throws your numbers off.

Quote
  Not only this, the vast majority of Christians through out the ages have followed this calendar.

Not exactly. Not all have used the Julian, those which did did not have the same New Year date, did not use the same eras, etc.

Quote
The liturgical Calendar was known to be out of ynchronization with the solar cycle for centuries. 

Oh? When are the first instances of evidence of this awareness?

Quote
What does it matter?



Ask the Fathers of Nicea. They thought it important enough to straighten out.

Quote
  Render to the civil authorities what is theirs, and to God and the Saints what is theirs. 

Since God made the Sun, the Earth, and set the latter to spin on its axis on a twilt around the latter, and the astronomers the civil authorities sponsered to observe those motions came up with the calendar that the Saints adopted, we are going to need Solomon to split that one.  The Ecclesiastical New Year, for instance, comes from the Roman fiscal new year, i.e. the tax indiction.


Quote
If it is so important that one celebrates Christmas with the Latins, then do so.

The Latins have nothing to do with it. Except that the same authority which issued the Julian calendar issued the Gregorain one as well.

Quote
But to destroy the unity of the Orthodox Church is inexcusable.

As Pope St. Victor found out.

Quote
And yes, it was the minority that introduced the New Calendar that destroyed that unity, not those that chose to stay with what had been done for more than a dozen centuries.  Perhaps that is why the Old Calendar is defended with such vehemency, and why there is no desire by those on the Old Calendar to "baptize" what has torn the unity of the Church. 
The Fathers had no problem baptizing the work of the pagan Caesars which spilt the martyrs' blood.

As for minority, Athanasius contra mundi.

A great response on the calendar. You neatly dissected all of the same old, same old that I always hear. The only good defense of the old as I see it, is that it is what we do, and if 25 percent of my parish are passionate about it each way, the 25 percent who don't want to change would likely walk if we change and the 25 percent who want the change are likely to wait it out and grin and bear it. To those of us who want the change in old calendar parishes, the cost of changing is not worth further fracturing the parish. The rest is sophistry. And while I don't believe in alternative histories, it seems to me that at some point in the 20th century a Tsarist Russia would have joined up to the rest of the world for economic reasons, so we can thank the communists for our current dilemma.
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« Reply #1281 on: November 26, 2010, 12:02:23 AM »


The rest is sophistry. And while I don't believe in alternative histories, it seems to me that at some point in the 20th century a Tsarist Russia would have joined up to the rest of the world for economic reasons, so we can thank the communists for our current dilemma.

Actually, Russia went on the Gregorian Calendar for civil affairs in 1918, so the Communists had nothing to do with the current dilemma.  You can thank the current dilemma to the Masons.  In addition, Bulgaria adopted the Gregorian Calendar for civil use in 1916, and Romania adopted it for civil use in 1919.  So, as you can see, Russia did adopt the New Calendar for civil reasons (and messed around with a totally different calendar for a while under Communist rule before going back to the Gregorian), but kept the Old Calendar for worship, even under Communist persecution.  Near as I can tell, Serbia also adopted the Gregorian calendar for civil matters at the same time as Romania.  She worships under the Old Calendar to this day, even after being under the Communist yoke for a time.   
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« Reply #1282 on: November 26, 2010, 12:49:22 AM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate, then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-) If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's, why should ours when we are called to not be of the World?

Exactly.  There is no reason for the ecclesiastical calendar to match the civil,

except that the Orthodox Churches, until 1875, have always done so.  The Bolsheviks didn't celebrate their October Revolution on November 7 (1917) out of reverence for the Fathers.

Quote
and the fact that the majority of EO Christians and nearly all of the OO Christians follow the Old Calendar is proof of this.

It only proves the problem when one large Church (Russian and Ethiopia respectively) throws your numbers off.

Quote
  Not only this, the vast majority of Christians through out the ages have followed this calendar.

Not exactly. Not all have used the Julian, those which did did not have the same New Year date, did not use the same eras, etc.

Quote
The liturgical Calendar was known to be out of ynchronization with the solar cycle for centuries. 

Oh? When are the first instances of evidence of this awareness?

Quote
What does it matter?



Ask the Fathers of Nicea. They thought it important enough to straighten out.

Quote
  Render to the civil authorities what is theirs, and to God and the Saints what is theirs. 

Since God made the Sun, the Earth, and set the latter to spin on its axis on a twilt around the latter, and the astronomers the civil authorities sponsered to observe those motions came up with the calendar that the Saints adopted, we are going to need Solomon to split that one.  The Ecclesiastical New Year, for instance, comes from the Roman fiscal new year, i.e. the tax indiction.


Quote
If it is so important that one celebrates Christmas with the Latins, then do so.

The Latins have nothing to do with it. Except that the same authority which issued the Julian calendar issued the Gregorain one as well.

Quote
But to destroy the unity of the Orthodox Church is inexcusable.

As Pope St. Victor found out.

Quote
And yes, it was the minority that introduced the New Calendar that destroyed that unity, not those that chose to stay with what had been done for more than a dozen centuries.  Perhaps that is why the Old Calendar is defended with such vehemency, and why there is no desire by those on the Old Calendar to "baptize" what has torn the unity of the Church. 
The Fathers had no problem baptizing the work of the pagan Caesars which spilt the martyrs' blood.

As for minority, Athanasius contra mundi.

A great response on the calendar. You neatly dissected all of the same old, same old that I always hear. The only good defense of the old as I see it, is that it is what we do, and if 25 percent of my parish are passionate about it each way, the 25 percent who don't want to change would likely walk if we change and the 25 percent who want the change are likely to wait it out and grin and bear it. To those of us who want the change in old calendar parishes, the cost of changing is not worth further fracturing the parish. The rest is sophistry. And while I don't believe in alternative histories, it seems to me that at some point in the 20th century a Tsarist Russia would have joined up to the rest of the world for economic reasons, so we can thank the communists for our current dilemma.
I forgot to add my only objection to the New Calendar:

How it was imposed.

Punch has his facts straight about the calendar in Russia (including the intervening Revolutionary Calendar, which very few remember), I'm afraid the matter is beyond facts at this point. In the minds of many, it is associated with Communism, whether that is a fact or not.
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« Reply #1283 on: November 26, 2010, 03:22:56 AM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate, then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-) If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's, why should ours when we are called to not be of the World?

Well then, why not stick with the Ptolemaic cosmology as well? Or Galen's medical theories about the four humors? Or any number of other outmoded scientific models?

If we were talking about defending a calendar that had been determined by one of the early fathers (or by Christ) I could understand the force of the arguments. But it wasn't; it was devised by a pagan polytheist emperor (and it doesn't get much more worldly than G.J. Caesar) 50-plus years before Our Lord's Incarnation, and is based (among other things) on the notion that the sun revolves around the earth. What do we gain in sticking to it that is critical to our relationship with the Triune God?

And adopting the Gregorian calendar doesn't put us in sync with the world--or the Western church. So I really don't see compelling arguments deserving of the degree of passion that many Old Calendrists seem to feel.

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« Reply #1284 on: November 26, 2010, 04:22:58 AM »

I'm afraid the matter is beyond facts at this point. In the minds of many, it is associated with Communism, whether that is a fact or not.
So, you are saying that we should dogmatically require the doctrines of the Church to be driven by misconceptions.
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« Reply #1285 on: November 26, 2010, 06:52:51 AM »

The method in which it was introduced was wrong.
I think, had it been implemented through a worldwide council many of the objections would have been more limited. I much prefer the old calendar but if a proper council in the future called for the implantation of the new calendar then I would have to abide by the decision in order to maintain a clear conscience and since the issue does not directly affect the dogmas of the Church.
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« Reply #1286 on: November 26, 2010, 06:59:44 AM »

I think there is only one way to look at this issue, because, in the Orthodox faith there is only one way that is true.
<snip>
I believe the New Calendar is an innexcusable error.
<snip>
However, I have a problem with the Old Calendarists who have decided to retain the calendar instead of retaining the unity of the faith. If there is no canonical communion with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I belive that is a schism.

I would like some discussion on your views on the Monastery of Sts Cyprian and Justina (Fili, Attica, Greece)who are reputedly in communion with Jerusalem. Also, what is the view of the Church on the number of Orthodox churches a particular church must share communion with in order for it's canonicality to be valid (I have heard 4 churches are needed). Similarly, I would like some discussion on the Russia Abroad church which is not part of the Canonical Russian Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow.

In Christ

Mattheos    


Mattheos, dear brother in Christ,

Happy New Year 2003 (Revised Julian Calendar)!

Concerning the Holy Monastery of Saints Cyprian and Justina in Fili (Attica), Greece: This monastery is the headquarters for the True (Old Calendar) Orthodox Church of Greece, Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili (Attica), Greece.  Metropolitan Cyprian's Synod is not only in communion with the Patriarchate of Jerusalem--it is also in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR or ROCA).  The ROCOR is in communion with the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Serbian Patriarchate.  So, indirectly, the TOC under Metropolitan Cyprian is in communion with the Serbian Patriarchate also through its communion with the ROCOR.  Does this make sense?

Read further.  The Patriarchate of Moscow is in communion with all the canonical Orthodox Patriarchates and other canonical Autocephalous and Autonomous Orthodox Churches throughout the world, *including* the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Serbian Patriarchate!  So, *indirectly* the ROCOR (and Metropolitan Cyprian's Synod as well) is in a kind of communion with them also, despite their not serving at each other's altars!  The situation is both scandalous and ridiculous and must be corrected speedily to show indeed that the Orthodox Church is ONE and has unity.

I have never heard the theory of the number of canonical Churches that an Orthodox Church must be in communion with to be canonically "valid."  This sounds like playing games with numbers.  The "validity" concept here appears to me to be more Latin than Orthodox.  However, I could be very wrong, and, if so, I am more than willing to submit to correction by someone more knowledgable than I in the field of Orthodox ecclesiology, where I am a self-taught lay amateur at best.

Respectfully,
Hypo-Ortho
Now that ROCOR is in full communion with Moscow and all other Orthodox churches which (if any) of their connections (communion wise) been maintained?
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« Reply #1287 on: November 26, 2010, 09:17:34 AM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate, then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-) If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's, why should ours when we are called to not be of the World?

Exactly.  There is no reason for the ecclesiastical calendar to match the civil,

except that the Orthodox Churches, until 1875, have always done so.  The Bolsheviks didn't celebrate their October Revolution on November 7 (1917) out of reverence for the Fathers.

Quote
and the fact that the majority of EO Christians and nearly all of the OO Christians follow the Old Calendar is proof of this.

It only proves the problem when one large Church (Russian and Ethiopia respectively) throws your numbers off.

Quote
 Not only this, the vast majority of Christians through out the ages have followed this calendar.

Not exactly. Not all have used the Julian, those which did did not have the same New Year date, did not use the same eras, etc.

Quote
The liturgical Calendar was known to be out of ynchronization with the solar cycle for centuries.

Oh? When are the first instances of evidence of this awareness?

Quote
What does it matter?



Ask the Fathers of Nicea. They thought it important enough to straighten out.

Quote
 Render to the civil authorities what is theirs, and to God and the Saints what is theirs.

Since God made the Sun, the Earth, and set the latter to spin on its axis on a twilt around the latter, and the astronomers the civil authorities sponsered to observe those motions came up with the calendar that the Saints adopted, we are going to need Solomon to split that one.  The Ecclesiastical New Year, for instance, comes from the Roman fiscal new year, i.e. the tax indiction.


Quote
If it is so important that one celebrates Christmas with the Latins, then do so.

The Latins have nothing to do with it. Except that the same authority which issued the Julian calendar issued the Gregorain one as well.

Quote
But to destroy the unity of the Orthodox Church is inexcusable.

As Pope St. Victor found out.

Quote
And yes, it was the minority that introduced the New Calendar that destroyed that unity, not those that chose to stay with what had been done for more than a dozen centuries.  Perhaps that is why the Old Calendar is defended with such vehemency, and why there is no desire by those on the Old Calendar to "baptize" what has torn the unity of the Church.  
The Fathers had no problem baptizing the work of the pagan Caesars which spilt the martyrs' blood.

As for minority, Athanasius contra mundi.

A great response on the calendar. You neatly dissected all of the same old, same old that I always hear. The only good defense of the old as I see it, is that it is what we do, and if 25 percent of my parish are passionate about it each way, the 25 percent who don't want to change would likely walk if we change and the 25 percent who want the change are likely to wait it out and grin and bear it. To those of us who want the change in old calendar parishes, the cost of changing is not worth further fracturing the parish. The rest is sophistry. And while I don't believe in alternative histories, it seems to me that at some point in the 20th century a Tsarist Russia would have joined up to the rest of the world for economic reasons, so we can thank the communists for our current dilemma.
I forgot to add my only objection to the New Calendar:

How it was imposed.

Punch has his facts straight about the calendar in Russia (including the intervening Revolutionary Calendar, which very few remember), I'm afraid the matter is beyond facts at this point. In the minds of many, it is associated with Communism, whether that is a fact or not.

Thanks to both of you for the historical correction. That is a commonly made error and a fact that I did forget. I believe however that my reference is proper in the context of the revolution that deposed the monarchy. Had the monarchy not been removed, would a Tsarist Russian Church have followed the civil calendar. After all, all of the liturgical books list the calendar days of the Holydays as corresponding to the traditional calendar dates, i.e. Christmas is observed by all of us on December 25 which on the Old Calendar falls of course 13 days following its new calendar calculation. I have have always been troubled about the fact that both my wife's grandmother and my grandfather were born on a Christmas day in the late 19th century, January 6th and during their lifetimes Christmas day switched to January 7th. Carried to the extreme future, someday the spring equinox will follow the celestial solstice. Would that not be absurd? Just a thought.
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« Reply #1288 on: November 26, 2010, 10:06:54 AM »

The fact remains the new calendar, by the EP's very words, was introduced to foster ecumenism with the heterodox and broke up unity of celebrating feasts and fasts with the majority of the world's Orthodox.
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« Reply #1289 on: November 26, 2010, 10:09:44 AM »

I'm afraid the matter is beyond facts at this point. In the minds of many, it is associated with Communism, whether that is a fact or not.
So, you are saying that we should dogmatically require the doctrines of the Church to be driven by misconceptions.
No, just that getting out of the hole dug isn't going to be just a question of filling it in.
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« Reply #1290 on: November 26, 2010, 10:14:31 AM »

The fact remains the new calendar, by the EP's very words, was introduced to foster ecumenism with the heterodox and broke up unity of celebrating feasts and fasts with the majority of the world's Orthodox.
I'm afraid the matter is beyond facts at this point.
There's always doing the right thing for the wrong reason. And Milanković was doing the right thing for the right reason.
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« Reply #1291 on: November 26, 2010, 10:19:07 AM »

I think there is only one way to look at this issue, because, in the Orthodox faith there is only one way that is true.
<snip>
I believe the New Calendar is an innexcusable error.
<snip>
However, I have a problem with the Old Calendarists who have decided to retain the calendar instead of retaining the unity of the faith. If there is no canonical communion with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I belive that is a schism.

I would like some discussion on your views on the Monastery of Sts Cyprian and Justina (Fili, Attica, Greece)who are reputedly in communion with Jerusalem. Also, what is the view of the Church on the number of Orthodox churches a particular church must share communion with in order for it's canonicality to be valid (I have heard 4 churches are needed). Similarly, I would like some discussion on the Russia Abroad church which is not part of the Canonical Russian Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow.

In Christ

Mattheos    


Mattheos, dear brother in Christ,

Happy New Year 2003 (Revised Julian Calendar)!

Concerning the Holy Monastery of Saints Cyprian and Justina in Fili (Attica), Greece: This monastery is the headquarters for the True (Old Calendar) Orthodox Church of Greece, Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili (Attica), Greece.  Metropolitan Cyprian's Synod is not only in communion with the Patriarchate of Jerusalem--it is also in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR or ROCA).  The ROCOR is in communion with the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Serbian Patriarchate.  So, indirectly, the TOC under Metropolitan Cyprian is in communion with the Serbian Patriarchate also through its communion with the ROCOR.  Does this make sense?

Read further.  The Patriarchate of Moscow is in communion with all the canonical Orthodox Patriarchates and other canonical Autocephalous and Autonomous Orthodox Churches throughout the world, *including* the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Serbian Patriarchate!  So, *indirectly* the ROCOR (and Metropolitan Cyprian's Synod as well) is in a kind of communion with them also, despite their not serving at each other's altars!  The situation is both scandalous and ridiculous and must be corrected speedily to show indeed that the Orthodox Church is ONE and has unity.

I have never heard the theory of the number of canonical Churches that an Orthodox Church must be in communion with to be canonically "valid."  This sounds like playing games with numbers.  The "validity" concept here appears to me to be more Latin than Orthodox.  However, I could be very wrong, and, if so, I am more than willing to submit to correction by someone more knowledgable than I in the field of Orthodox ecclesiology, where I am a self-taught lay amateur at best.

Respectfully,
Hypo-Ortho
Now that ROCOR is in full communion with Moscow and all other Orthodox churches which (if any) of their connections (communion wise) been maintained?

ROCOR slowly broke off with Old Calendarists, whether initiating it or causing dissension, first the Matthewites, GOC & ROAC, replacing that with the Kyprianites (Filli group), then prior to their planned union with the MP, they broke communion with the Kyprianites. ROCOR-A (Agathangel) has restored communion with the Kyprianites, while the RTOC has restored communion with the GOC.
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« Reply #1292 on: November 26, 2010, 10:45:45 AM »


Quote

Just like pagans themselves, a pagan calendar can be "Baptized" by the church and become holy.

Well, OK, but why not "baptize" the one that is accurate?

Define accurate, then defend how a Kyriopascha can never happen on the new (but still not accurate), and how some years there is no Apostles Fast. :-) If the Jews, Muslims, Busddhists, etc. do not feel their ecclesiastical calendars have to match the World's, why should ours when we are called to not be of the World?
Kyriopascha and a full Apostles' Fast can occur on the New Calendar, if the switch were to be complete, meaning that the new March 21 would be used for determining the date of Pascha.

It's the overlapping calendar situation that causes the anomalies and division that we see in the Orthodox world today.

Genesis 1:14 (NKJV): Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years...." This would be my argument for having a calendar that is in accord with what God has set in place, whether the Julian in centuries past, or the revised Julian (not Gregorian which is slightly less accurate) in our times.
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« Reply #1293 on: November 26, 2010, 10:51:41 AM »




ROCOR slowly broke off with Old Calendarists, whether initiating it or causing dissension, first the Matthewites, GOC & ROAC, replacing that with the Kyprianites (Filli group), then prior to their planned union with the MP, they broke communion with the Kyprianites. ROCOR-A (Agathangel) has restored communion with the Kyprianites, while the RTOC has restored communion with the GOC.
[/quote]

Thanks Smiley
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« Reply #1294 on: November 26, 2010, 12:02:19 PM »

The fact remains the new calendar, by the EP's very words, was introduced to foster ecumenism with the heterodox and broke up unity of celebrating feasts and fasts with the majority of the world's Orthodox.

That may be, but, it still begs the ultimate question.
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« Reply #1295 on: November 26, 2010, 12:10:30 PM »

The fact remains the new calendar, by the EP's very words, was introduced to foster ecumenism with the heterodox and broke up unity of celebrating feasts and fasts with the majority of the world's Orthodox.
And the Old Calendar, OPAT, was adopted for similar reasons.  Churches were calculating their own Easter/Pascha all over the place.  Church leaders announced that it was better to be together than to be right.  In a sense, Old Calendarists are now saying that it's better to be right, simultaneously disagreeing with the same folks they so readily quote.
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« Reply #1296 on: November 26, 2010, 02:14:20 PM »

Quote
better to be together than to be right
I hardly think saints like St. Mark of Ephesus prescribed to this thought process.
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« Reply #1297 on: November 26, 2010, 03:01:54 PM »


I forgot to add my only objection to the New Calendar:

How it was imposed.

Punch has his facts straight about the calendar in Russia (including the intervening Revolutionary Calendar, which very few remember), I'm afraid the matter is beyond facts at this point. In the minds of many, it is associated with Communism, whether that is a fact or not.

And there you have hit directly what makes up more than 75% of my objection to the New Calendar.  In fact, if it were phased in so that no Saints days were omitted (as opposed to just dropping 14 days off), and was imposed with ALL the Churches accepting it, I would have no objection.  In fact, other than a few hard cores that will never change, most of the Old Calendarists I have spoken to object to, and are suspicious of, the New Calendar due to the way it was imposed.
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« Reply #1298 on: November 26, 2010, 03:08:44 PM »

The fact remains the new calendar, by the EP's very words, was introduced to foster ecumenism with the heterodox and broke up unity of celebrating feasts and fasts with the majority of the world's Orthodox.
And the Old Calendar, OPAT, was adopted for similar reasons.  Churches were calculating their own Easter/Pascha all over the place.  Church leaders announced that it was better to be together than to be right.  In a sense, Old Calendarists are now saying that it's better to be right, simultaneously disagreeing with the same folks they so readily quote.

That would be true only if the majority of Orthodox (both EO and OO) had adopted the new calendar.  The fact is that only a minority have done so.  Just because that minority is a majority in the United States does not mean that it is not a minority world wide.  Again, it is not the Old Calendarists that broke the unity.
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« Reply #1299 on: November 26, 2010, 03:12:39 PM »

Quote
better to be together than to be right
I hardly think saints like St. Mark of Ephesus prescribed to this thought process.

I can't recall ANY of the Fathers subscribing to the quoted thought process.  But then again, I still have a ways to go before I have read all of them  Smiley
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« Reply #1300 on: November 26, 2010, 03:13:33 PM »

I would like it if the whole church gradually switched to the New personally, but I would rather have everyone be together either way. This situation with two different calendars in the Church is totally unacceptable. For example, I still haven't started the Nativity Fast, and when I visit my mother's this weekend out of town then I will attend an OCA parish where they are on totally different saints and well into the fast. Totally bizarre and I hate it.
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« Reply #1301 on: November 26, 2010, 03:38:06 PM »

Quote
better to be together than to be right
I hardly think saints like St. Mark of Ephesus prescribed to this thought process.

Best to be together and right.
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« Reply #1302 on: November 26, 2010, 04:29:31 PM »

The fact remains the new calendar, by the EP's very words, was introduced to foster ecumenism with the heterodox and broke up unity of celebrating feasts and fasts with the majority of the world's Orthodox.
And the Old Calendar, OPAT, was adopted for similar reasons.  Churches were calculating their own Easter/Pascha all over the place.  Church leaders announced that it was better to be together than to be right.  In a sense, Old Calendarists are now saying that it's better to be right, simultaneously disagreeing with the same folks they so readily quote.
OPAT?

There was an element of right in the issue, as they settled on the Alexandrian Paschalion, for the stated reason that she had the best astronomers.
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« Reply #1303 on: November 26, 2010, 04:32:19 PM »

The method in which it was introduced was wrong.
I think, had it been implemented through a worldwide council many of the objections would have been more limited. I much prefer the old calendar but if a proper council in the future called for the implantation of the new calendar then I would have to abide by the decision in order to maintain a clear conscience and since the issue does not directly affect the dogmas of the Church.

But WHY do you prefer it? That's what I don't get. It doesn't seem to have any bearing on my spiritual life one way or the other. I don't get why it does for others.
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« Reply #1304 on: November 26, 2010, 04:43:45 PM »

OPAT?
Believe it or not, it was supposed to mean Once upon a time.
Quote
There was an element of right in the issue, as they settled on the Alexandrian Paschalion, for the stated reason that she had the best astronomers.
Then I would say keeping the spirit of that same decision would require asking "Which calendar today is more astronomically accurate?"
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