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Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
Yes - 54 (15.3%)
No - 137 (38.8%)
both metaphorically and literally - 162 (45.9%)
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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 355992 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #5715 on: January 21, 2015, 11:27:53 PM »


Thank you for understanding my point. And thank you for your prayers. I certainly need them.

Selam

But the tyranny of reality supports common descent!  My evolutionary biology textbook (Evolutionary Biology by Douglas Futuyma) doesn't appeal to authority, it appeals to evidence!  I hope that you'll accept the scientific truth someday.

IC XC NIKA

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.  Wink


Selam
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« Reply #5716 on: January 21, 2015, 11:35:45 PM »


Thank you for understanding my point. And thank you for your prayers. I certainly need them.

Selam

But the tyranny of reality supports common descent!  My evolutionary biology textbook (Evolutionary Biology by Douglas Futuyma) doesn't appeal to authority, it appeals to evidence!  I hope that you'll accept the scientific truth someday.

IC XC NIKA

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.  Wink


Selam

I think that what you're doing is called psychological projection. 
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« Reply #5717 on: January 21, 2015, 11:45:13 PM »


Thank you for understanding my point. And thank you for your prayers. I certainly need them.

Selam

But the tyranny of reality supports common descent!  My evolutionary biology textbook (Evolutionary Biology by Douglas Futuyma) doesn't appeal to authority, it appeals to evidence!  I hope that you'll accept the scientific truth someday.

IC XC NIKA

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.  Wink


Selam

I think that what you're doing is called psychological projection. 

So are you also an expert in psychology?


Selam
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« Reply #5718 on: January 22, 2015, 12:04:38 AM »


Thank you for understanding my point. And thank you for your prayers. I certainly need them.

Selam

But the tyranny of reality supports common descent!  My evolutionary biology textbook (Evolutionary Biology by Douglas Futuyma) doesn't appeal to authority, it appeals to evidence!  I hope that you'll accept the scientific truth someday.

IC XC NIKA

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.  Wink


Selam

I think that what you're doing is called psychological projection. 

So are you also an expert in psychology?


Selam

Not as expert as you are in biology, evolution, genetics, physics, biochemistry, geology, taphonomy, and the philosophy of science, apparently.

IC XC NIKA
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« Reply #5719 on: January 22, 2015, 12:45:16 AM »


Thank you for understanding my point. And thank you for your prayers. I certainly need them.

Selam

But the tyranny of reality supports common descent!  My evolutionary biology textbook (Evolutionary Biology by Douglas Futuyma) doesn't appeal to authority, it appeals to evidence!  I hope that you'll accept the scientific truth someday.

IC XC NIKA

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.  Wink


Selam

I think that what you're doing is called psychological projection. 

So are you also an expert in psychology?


Selam

Not as expert as you are in biology, evolution, genetics, physics, biochemistry, geology, taphonomy, and the philosophy of science, apparently.

IC XC NIKA

I'm not the one making claims to expertise here.


Selam
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« Reply #5720 on: January 22, 2015, 12:48:42 AM »


Thank you for understanding my point. And thank you for your prayers. I certainly need them.

Selam

But the tyranny of reality supports common descent!  My evolutionary biology textbook (Evolutionary Biology by Douglas Futuyma) doesn't appeal to authority, it appeals to evidence!  I hope that you'll accept the scientific truth someday.

IC XC NIKA

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.  Wink


Selam

I think that what you're doing is called psychological projection. 

So are you also an expert in psychology?


Selam

Not as expert as you are in biology, evolution, genetics, physics, biochemistry, geology, taphonomy, and the philosophy of science, apparently.

IC XC NIKA

I'm not the one making claims to expertise here.


Selam

By default, you are.
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« Reply #5721 on: January 22, 2015, 01:01:14 AM »


Thank you for understanding my point. And thank you for your prayers. I certainly need them.

Selam

But the tyranny of reality supports common descent!  My evolutionary biology textbook (Evolutionary Biology by Douglas Futuyma) doesn't appeal to authority, it appeals to evidence!  I hope that you'll accept the scientific truth someday.

IC XC NIKA

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.  Wink


Selam

I think that what you're doing is called psychological projection. 

So are you also an expert in psychology?


Selam

Not as expert as you are in biology, evolution, genetics, physics, biochemistry, geology, taphonomy, and the philosophy of science, apparently.

IC XC NIKA

I'm not the one making claims to expertise here.


Selam

By default, you are.

Then by default so is everyone else who has opined on this thread.


Selam
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« Reply #5722 on: January 22, 2015, 01:08:49 AM »


Then by default so is everyone else who has opined on this thread.

Selam

Who else is claiming that overwhelmingly accepted scientific theories are false?  If you think that you know more about biology than the 99.9 percent of scientists who support evolution (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm) then you obviously claim to be a rarefied level of expert.  This isn't a hard concept.  If I claim that the earth is flat, then I'm simultaneously claiming to be more of a geological expert than the scientists who support geosphericity.  Do you get it?

IC XC NIKA
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« Reply #5723 on: January 22, 2015, 01:20:25 AM »


Then by default so is everyone else who has opined on this thread.

Selam

Who else is claiming that overwhelmingly accepted scientific theories are false?  If you think that you know more about biology than the 99.9 percent of scientists who support evolution (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm) then you obviously claim to be a rarefied level of expert.  This isn't a hard concept.  If I claim that the earth is flat, then I'm simultaneously claiming to be more of a geological expert than the scientists who support geosphericity.  Do you get it?

IC XC NIKA

You are free to believe as you wish. Keep praying for my repentance.


Selam
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« Reply #5724 on: January 22, 2015, 01:52:28 AM »


Then by default so is everyone else who has opined on this thread.

Selam

Who else is claiming that overwhelmingly accepted scientific theories are false?  If you think that you know more about biology than the 99.9 percent of scientists who support evolution (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm) then you obviously claim to be a rarefied level of expert.  This isn't a hard concept.  If I claim that the earth is flat, then I'm simultaneously claiming to be more of a geological expert than the scientists who support geosphericity.  Do you get it?

IC XC NIKA

You are free to believe as you wish. Keep praying for my repentance.


Selam

lol
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« Reply #5725 on: January 22, 2015, 04:38:32 AM »

Gebre,

You're the one who when answering an inquiry made claim that people have used bad science and bad faith.  By saying this, you implied expertise in good science and good religion.  I hope you realize your words, not my emotion or fundamentalism, continues to be inconsistent with your claim that you are not an expert.  That is all.

God bless you.
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« Reply #5726 on: January 22, 2015, 04:56:41 AM »

Gebre,

You're the one who when answering an inquiry made claim that people have used bad science and bad faith.  By saying this, you implied expertise in good science and good religion.  I hope you realize your words, not my emotion or fundamentalism, continues to be inconsistent with your claim that you are not an expert.  That is all.

God bless you.


Peace.


Selam
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« Reply #5727 on: January 22, 2015, 11:24:22 AM »


I have been quite consistent. Yes, I believe evolution is a demonic deception. I also believe that we are all deceived by many things. To live and act as if our own reasoning is so immaculate that we are immune to deception is the epitome of arrogance. As for the age of the earth, I will defer to the Fathers of my Church on this issue. But I have never declared this to be a theological dogma upon which our Faith hinges. So therefore I am able to remain open and objective about the age of the earth. If evolution can ever be empirically proven then I will recant my assertion that it is a demonic deception, and I will concede that I was the one who was deceived. It won't be the first time I was deceived about something.

But I don't wish to rehash this debate. Your faith in evolution is obviously very precious to you, and it is clear that your mind is made up. I have realized that arguing with a fundamentalist is fool's errand. But I wish you well all the same. I think you are a good person.


Selam

I believe in Satan just as much as you do but do you honestly believe that he put all of those fossils, laid out all of those geological formations, and created all of that DNA and astronomical evidence?  That means that Satan has the power to warp the physical world in ways akin to that of God, yet we know that Satan only has as much power as we give him.  The serpent coaxed Adam to eat the apple, he didn't shove it down his throat.  We know that we live in a fallen world, that Christ is our redeemer and that we must fight with all our might against Satan to bring about God's Kingdom on Earth.  This can be observed through the wisdom of the Church Fathers, through the power of faith and simply by observing the world around us.  This does not mean, however, that credible scientific evidence should be scorned in favor of a timeline postulated by individuals who had no access to modern scientific knowledge.  I'm glad that you don't embrace the dogma of organizations like Answers in Genesis but to believe young earth creationism is to pit Orthodoxy against science which should never happen.

Thank you for this. I have not heard of the ability of demons for see the future (at least in precise detail implied here) nor of the ability to alter our genetic make up by inserting retroviral sequence remnants at precise DNA locations in the primates of interest.
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« Reply #5728 on: January 22, 2015, 12:23:56 PM »


Then by default so is everyone else who has opined on this thread.

Selam

Who else is claiming that overwhelmingly accepted scientific theories are false?  If you think that you know more about biology than the 99.9 percent of scientists who support evolution (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm) then you obviously claim to be a rarefied level of expert.  This isn't a hard concept.  If I claim that the earth is flat, then I'm simultaneously claiming to be more of a geological expert than the scientists who support geosphericity.  Do you get it?

IC XC NIKA

You are free to believe as you wish. Keep praying for my repentance.


Selam

lol

So you enter this debate only to cop out when you are presented with clear and indisputable evidence that you are wrong?  Very well.  Pray for my repentance as well.

IC XC NIKA
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« Reply #5729 on: January 22, 2015, 08:41:59 PM »


Then by default so is everyone else who has opined on this thread.

Selam

Who else is claiming that overwhelmingly accepted scientific theories are false?  If you think that you know more about biology than the 99.9 percent of scientists who support evolution (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm) then you obviously claim to be a rarefied level of expert.  This isn't a hard concept.  If I claim that the earth is flat, then I'm simultaneously claiming to be more of a geological expert than the scientists who support geosphericity.  Do you get it?

IC XC NIKA

You are free to believe as you wish. Keep praying for my repentance.


Selam

lol

So you enter this debate only to cop out when you are presented with clear and indisputable evidence that you are wrong?  Very well.  Pray for my repentance as well.

IC XC NIKA

I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam
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« Reply #5730 on: January 22, 2015, 08:45:11 PM »


Then by default so is everyone else who has opined on this thread.

Selam

Who else is claiming that overwhelmingly accepted scientific theories are false?  If you think that you know more about biology than the 99.9 percent of scientists who support evolution (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm) then you obviously claim to be a rarefied level of expert.  This isn't a hard concept.  If I claim that the earth is flat, then I'm simultaneously claiming to be more of a geological expert than the scientists who support geosphericity.  Do you get it?

IC XC NIKA

You are free to believe as you wish. Keep praying for my repentance.


Selam

lol

So you enter this debate only to cop out when you are presented with clear and indisputable evidence that you are wrong?  Very well.  Pray for my repentance as well.

IC XC NIKA

I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

It's not hard to find.
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« Reply #5731 on: January 22, 2015, 11:20:05 PM »


Then by default so is everyone else who has opined on this thread.

Selam

Who else is claiming that overwhelmingly accepted scientific theories are false?  If you think that you know more about biology than the 99.9 percent of scientists who support evolution (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm) then you obviously claim to be a rarefied level of expert.  This isn't a hard concept.  If I claim that the earth is flat, then I'm simultaneously claiming to be more of a geological expert than the scientists who support geosphericity.  Do you get it?

IC XC NIKA

You are free to believe as you wish. Keep praying for my repentance.


Selam

lol

So you enter this debate only to cop out when you are presented with clear and indisputable evidence that you are wrong?  Very well.  Pray for my repentance as well.

IC XC NIKA

I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

It's not hard to find.

It's certainly hard to find on this thread.


Selam
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« Reply #5732 on: January 22, 2015, 11:54:45 PM »


I have been quite consistent. Yes, I believe evolution is a demonic deception. I also believe that we are all deceived by many things. To live and act as if our own reasoning is so immaculate that we are immune to deception is the epitome of arrogance. As for the age of the earth, I will defer to the Fathers of my Church on this issue. But I have never declared this to be a theological dogma upon which our Faith hinges. So therefore I am able to remain open and objective about the age of the earth. If evolution can ever be empirically proven then I will recant my assertion that it is a demonic deception, and I will concede that I was the one who was deceived. It won't be the first time I was deceived about something.

But I don't wish to rehash this debate. Your faith in evolution is obviously very precious to you, and it is clear that your mind is made up. I have realized that arguing with a fundamentalist is fool's errand. But I wish you well all the same. I think you are a good person.


Selam

I believe in Satan just as much as you do but do you honestly believe that he put all of those fossils, laid out all of those geological formations, and created all of that DNA and astronomical evidence?  That means that Satan has the power to warp the physical world in ways akin to that of God, yet we know that Satan only has as much power as we give him.  The serpent coaxed Adam to eat the apple, he didn't shove it down his throat.  We know that we live in a fallen world, that Christ is our redeemer and that we must fight with all our might against Satan to bring about God's Kingdom on Earth.  This can be observed through the wisdom of the Church Fathers, through the power of faith and simply by observing the world around us.  This does not mean, however, that credible scientific evidence should be scorned in favor of a timeline postulated by individuals who had no access to modern scientific knowledge.  I'm glad that you don't embrace the dogma of organizations like Answers in Genesis but to believe young earth creationism is to pit Orthodoxy against science which should never happen.

Thank you for this. I have not heard of the ability of demons for see the future (at least in precise detail implied here) nor of the ability to alter our genetic make up by inserting retroviral sequence remnants at precise DNA locations in the primates of interest.

Dear Rhinosaur: With respect, you have misrepresented my views, although I'm sure you didn't do so deliberately. I have never come close to arguing that satan has the power to lay out the elaborate scheme you described above. Satan is a deceiver, and he can easily deceive us without having to rearrange the universe.

You are correct that we live in a fallen world, and that should be taken into consideration when attempting to scientifically understand the world. Nature can be quite deceptive. However, because God is the Author of creation we don't have to view the world with complete skepticism. God has left His indelible imprint upon the universe, and therefore we can discern certain truths and laws about the universe that can guide us into a deeper understanding. But we must also recognize that the fall drastically effected the natural world, as it effected man, and therefore we must be cautious not to blindly presuppose that everything we observe in the world today is the way that it has always been. For example, we observe death today. But there was no death prior to the fall. So it would be wrong to presuppose that death has always occurred, which is exactly what evolution teaches. But death entered the world through sin, not through the will of God via some divine evolutionary process. (Which is why I believe that evolution does contradict Orthodox theology, because it ascribes death to God rather than to sin. And I have yet to have anyone explain this away without having to resort to serious hermeneutical gymnastics in the process. But I pose this dilemma again, and await an answer.) On the other hand, e.g., there is nothing to indicate that the law of gravity was not existent prior to the fall. So we can reasonably discern certain scientific facts about the world and how it operates, and we can trust in these facts (such as the law of gravity.) But there are other theories - that regardless of how plausible they may seem within the context of certain presuppositions - are nevertheless devoid of empirical verification. In those cases, we must have the scientific integrity not to purport as fact what we don't know to actually be fact. Science is unbiased. It has no dog in the hunt, so to speak. It has nothing to gain or lose. It is an instrument. And like any instrument, it can be used correctly or incorrectly.

As for timelines and the age of the earth, etc., I remain open and objective about it. But I am curious to know from people here how old the earth is. What we know for certain is that the earth is at least 7,000-8,000 years old. This is scientifically verified. Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. Is it 3 million or 3 billion years old? Is it 3.5 billion years old or 3.4 billion years old? I have no idea. But it seems that if there was a way to scientifically prove the age of the earth beyond 7,000 or 8,000 years old, then scientists would be able to pinpoint it with 100% accuracy. But they can't, which is fine. Doesn't mean the earth is not that old. It  just means that they are making an estimated guess based on their uniformitarian presuppositions. And that's quite logical. But logical estimations are not the same thing as empirically verified fact.

Anyway, I just wanted to respond because your characterization of my views was off base. I'll be glad to clarify any statements I have made. I think you are an honest person, so that's why I took the time to respond.


Selam
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« Reply #5733 on: January 23, 2015, 12:06:19 AM »

I hesitate to enter back into this discussion because it seems to do more to ignite the passions than anything else, but I will only say this about the earth.

ASSUMING there was not divine intervention (which of course cannot be determined by science) the age of the earth can be approximated by doing radiometric dating. An exact date can't be determined because the only way that we can use radiometric dating is by finding the oldest rock we can find and measure the decay of radioactive material.  This gives us a minimum age, but it is always possible that even older rocks are discovered which push the age of the earth back further. Science cannot determine if God intervened, but assuming that the earth is only 7,000 years old, the radioactive material in rock would look significantly different. It would be odd for there to be rocks with different rates of decay, why would God make rocks that give the appearance of different ages?
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« Reply #5734 on: January 23, 2015, 12:14:01 AM »


I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

Well, you are more of an expert in science than the 99.9% of scientists who support evolution, so who am I to question you?  Here's plenty of evidence for evolution: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ 
If you aren't too afraid, you can discover where the rabbit hole goes. 

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« Reply #5735 on: January 23, 2015, 12:21:57 AM »


I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

Well, you are more of an expert in science than the 99.9% of scientists who support evolution, so who am I to question you?  Here's plenty of evidence for evolution: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/  
If you aren't too afraid, you can discover where the rabbit hole goes.  

IC XC NIKA

The fact that you assert as fact that 99.9% of scientists support evolution is evidence of your lack of objectivity. Can you prove that 99.9% of all scientists believe in evolution? No. All you can do is rely on some tautology about all true scientists believe in evolution, i.e. all true scientists believe in evolution and those who don't aren't true scientists.  Again, it's more of the same specious logic about blue is the best color because the best color is blue.


Selam
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« Reply #5736 on: January 23, 2015, 12:25:27 AM »


I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

Well, you are more of an expert in science than the 99.9% of scientists who support evolution, so who am I to question you?  Here's plenty of evidence for evolution: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ 
If you aren't too afraid, you can discover where the rabbit hole goes. 

IC XC NIKA

The fact that you assert as fact that 99.9% of scientists support evolution is evidence of your lack of objectivity. Can you prove that 99.9% of all scientists believe in evolution? No. All you can do is rely on some tautology about all true scientists believe in evolution, i.e. all true scientists believe in evolution and those who don't aren't true scientists.  Again, it's more of the same specious logic about blue is the best color because the best color is blue.


Selam

What are you talking about?  I provide a source for that statistic several messages above (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm)  Read before you respond. 

I also see that you're too scared to look at the evidence that I posted.  You remind me of how I was back during my active alcoholism, standing before a mirror in my own mind trying to convince myself that my ways were right, with word games and false analogies.  I was afraid of the truth, but you don't have to be now. 
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« Reply #5737 on: January 23, 2015, 12:32:39 AM »

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hominin-ancestors-australopithecus-had-opposable-thumbs-3-2-million-year-ago-1484726

Quote
The species that gave rise to the Homo genus had human-like hands and opposable thumbs as early as 3.2 million years ago, scientists have discovered.

Analysis of bones from Australopithecus africanus shows our pre-human ancestors likely used stone tools about half a million years earlier than thought.

Published in Science magazine, the researchers used new techniques to examine the internal, spongy structure of the bone called the trabeculae – a bone that reflects the behaviour of individuals in their lifetimes.

After looking at humans and chimpanzees, researchers found Australopithecus had a human-like trabecular pattern in the bones of the thumb and palm consistent with the opposition of the thumb and fingers, normally seen during tool use.
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« Reply #5738 on: January 23, 2015, 12:43:19 AM »

I hesitate to enter back into this discussion because it seems to do more to ignite the passions than anything else, but I will only say this about the earth.

ASSUMING there was not divine intervention (which of course cannot be determined by science) the age of the earth can be approximated by doing radiometric dating. An exact date can't be determined because the only way that we can use radiometric dating is by finding the oldest rock we can find and measure the decay of radioactive material.  This gives us a minimum age, but it is always possible that even older rocks are discovered which push the age of the earth back further. Science cannot determine if God intervened, but assuming that the earth is only 7,000 years old, the radioactive material in rock would look significantly different. It would be odd for there to be rocks with different rates of decay, why would God make rocks that give the appearance of different ages?

Thank you for your thoughtful answer. I wish there was more of that on this thread. But you begin with admitting a huge assumption. And that's pretty much my main point in all of this. Science is free of assumptive biases. Again, it's fine to develop and test theories based on observation and certain reasonable assumptions (such as uniformitarian rates of change), but we cannot dismiss the assumptions. In other words, we have to allow for the possibility that something intervened to radically or drastically alter what we observe at the moment. In fact, isn't this what evolutionists do when they speculate that a meteor wiped out the dinosaurs? (Which I've always found confusing, because if a meteor destroyed the dinosaurs then why didn't it destroy the other animals as well? But that's for another day.) We see lots of examples in the world today of things that would appear to have taken thousands of years to develop but were actually the cause of some natural catastrophe. So the assumptions aren't necessarily illogical. The scientific method does involve assumptions. It's just that we can't begin with assumptions and then pretend that our theory is devoid of assumptions. This is why I have pointed out many times that evolution really does hinge upon an atheistic presupposition. Because to allow for the existence of God and the possibility of a divinely orchestrated catastrophic event is to strip the theory of its plausibility import. In other words, if there is no God, then there can be no alternative or competing theory of creation. Humans had to evolve, because there is no God. And thus any ostensible evidence becomes magnified when all other theories are removed from the outset.

As for passions, yes, I have pointed this out frequently. Many evolutionists are quite militant and passionate about their theory. And this is hardly indicative of the true scientific spirit which is unbiased, objective, and does not allow emotions to interfere with the scientific method. It really is a religion with some people, and they really do have a fundamentalist attitude about it. In fact, one evolutionist here has already accused me of being small minded and told me to repent because I simply remain open and objective about the issue. It is strange, but not uncommon, to see evolutionists exude such passions about a scientific theory. Of course, there are others like yourself, who can discuss the subject with dispassionate reasoning. And I appreciate that.

Selam
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« Reply #5739 on: January 23, 2015, 12:45:41 AM »


I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

Well, you are more of an expert in science than the 99.9% of scientists who support evolution, so who am I to question you?  Here's plenty of evidence for evolution: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ 
If you aren't too afraid, you can discover where the rabbit hole goes. 

IC XC NIKA

I am unwilling to read the site that you posted. It is like saying "read this book and come back to me". I am sure Gebre is familiar with the site since items from the site has been posted here often enough. This is not a way to start a discussion, if that was your intention.

I know that there are posts since starting this that I haven't read, but that is par for the course.
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« Reply #5740 on: January 23, 2015, 12:48:59 AM »


I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

Well, you are more of an expert in science than the 99.9% of scientists who support evolution, so who am I to question you?  Here's plenty of evidence for evolution: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ 
If you aren't too afraid, you can discover where the rabbit hole goes. 

IC XC NIKA

The fact that you assert as fact that 99.9% of scientists support evolution is evidence of your lack of objectivity. Can you prove that 99.9% of all scientists believe in evolution? No. All you can do is rely on some tautology about all true scientists believe in evolution, i.e. all true scientists believe in evolution and those who don't aren't true scientists.  Again, it's more of the same specious logic about blue is the best color because the best color is blue.


Selam

What are you talking about?  I provide a source for that statistic several messages above (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm)  Read before you respond. 

I also see that you're too scared to look at the evidence that I posted.  You remind me of how I was back during my active alcoholism, standing before a mirror in my own mind trying to convince myself that my ways were right, with word games and false analogies.  I was afraid of the truth, but you don't have to be now. 

You should write some tracts. I think you'd be great at it. You could be the Jack Chick of the evolutionism movement. I would suggest something at the top like: REPENT AND EVOLVE!


Selam
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« Reply #5741 on: January 23, 2015, 12:52:28 AM »


I am unwilling to read the site that you posted. It is like saying "read this book and come back to me". I am sure Gebre is familiar with the site since items from the site has been posted here often enough. This is not a way to start a discussion, if that was your intention.

I know that there are posts since starting this that I haven't read, but that is par for the course.

Learning is an action.  If you're unwilling to do the work, then so be it.  At my college the professors have no sympathy for willfully ignorant people who are too lazy to open science books before they open their mouths.  I'll never make that mistake again.   
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« Reply #5742 on: January 23, 2015, 12:54:53 AM »



You should write some tracts. I think you'd be great at it. You could be the Jack Chick of the evolutionism movement. I would suggest something at the top like: REPENT AND EVOLVE!


Selam


What's the "evolutionism movement"?  Are you talking about people who open science books before they open their mouths?
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« Reply #5743 on: January 23, 2015, 11:30:10 AM »


I am unwilling to read the site that you posted. It is like saying "read this book and come back to me". I am sure Gebre is familiar with the site since items from the site has been posted here often enough. This is not a way to start a discussion, if that was your intention.

I know that there are posts since starting this that I haven't read, but that is par for the course.

Learning is an action.  If you're unwilling to do the work, then so be it.  At my college the professors have no sympathy for willfully ignorant people who are too lazy to open science books before they open their mouths.  I'll never make that mistake again.   

In a college setting a student does have to work at it. In a discussion forum your student is not the single person you are arguing with. You have many students who are reading the thread, almost none of whom willing to spend hours upon hours reading the talkorigins site because it is not essential to their lives. If you want to teach you need to engage in a discussion, which does happen on occasion. I suppose there are some readers that like to read exchanges between posters that are dismissive towards each other, but I am not one of them (I am not referring to the current posts, I am just taking the opportunity to ramble on).
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« Reply #5744 on: January 23, 2015, 11:50:56 AM »


I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

Well, you are more of an expert in science than the 99.9% of scientists who support evolution, so who am I to question you?  Here's plenty of evidence for evolution: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/  
If you aren't too afraid, you can discover where the rabbit hole goes.  

IC XC NIKA

The fact that you assert as fact that 99.9% of scientists support evolution is evidence of your lack of objectivity. Can you prove that 99.9% of all scientists believe in evolution? No. All you can do is rely on some tautology about all true scientists believe in evolution, i.e. all true scientists believe in evolution and those who don't aren't true scientists.  Again, it's more of the same specious logic about blue is the best color because the best color is blue.


Selam

99.9% is a bit much, indeed. It's more like 97% of all the world's scientists. http://ncse.com/news/2009/07/views-evolution-among-public-scientists-004904
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« Reply #5745 on: January 23, 2015, 11:57:26 AM »


I'm not copping out of anything. I've debated this issue at length already. I simply responded to your question, and you never addressed my response. And in our brief dialogue you haven't even attempted to provide any evidence for evolution.

Selam

Well, you are more of an expert in science than the 99.9% of scientists who support evolution, so who am I to question you?  Here's plenty of evidence for evolution: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ 
If you aren't too afraid, you can discover where the rabbit hole goes. 

IC XC NIKA

The fact that you assert as fact that 99.9% of scientists support evolution is evidence of your lack of objectivity. Can you prove that 99.9% of all scientists believe in evolution? No. All you can do is rely on some tautology about all true scientists believe in evolution, i.e. all true scientists believe in evolution and those who don't aren't true scientists.  Again, it's more of the same specious logic about blue is the best color because the best color is blue.


Selam

What are you talking about?  I provide a source for that statistic several messages above (http://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2006/07_28_2006/story03.htm)  Read before you respond. 

I also see that you're too scared to look at the evidence that I posted.  You remind me of how I was back during my active alcoholism, standing before a mirror in my own mind trying to convince myself that my ways were right, with word games and false analogies.  I was afraid of the truth, but you don't have to be now. 

You should write some tracts. I think you'd be great at it. You could be the Jack Chick of the evolutionism movement. I would suggest something at the top like: REPENT AND EVOLVE!


Selam


hahahahhaah, while I do not agree with you re evolution, this post is simply fantastic
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« Reply #5746 on: January 23, 2015, 12:00:23 PM »

99.9% is a bit much, indeed. It's more like 97% of all the world's scientists. http://ncse.com/news/2009/07/views-evolution-among-public-scientists-004904

You're right.  I read my previous source more carefully, and the the 99.9% figure was obtained from some guy's quote, who didn't indicate that he had conducted a study of any kind.  Maybe was referring to life scientists specifically.  The point is, you have to be extremely prideful to think that you know more than all of those scientists, especially when you think that the evidence for evolution is equivalent to asserting that blue is the best color, or whatever ridiculousness that guy said.  
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« Reply #5747 on: January 23, 2015, 12:01:43 PM »


hahahahhaah, while I do not agree with you re evolution, this post is simply fantastic

I thought that it was funny that the science-denier was comparing a scientifically literate person with Jack Chick.  Projection indeed.
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« Reply #5748 on: January 23, 2015, 12:33:25 PM »

99.9% is a bit much, indeed. It's more like 97% of all the world's scientists. http://ncse.com/news/2009/07/views-evolution-among-public-scientists-004904

You're right.  I read my previous source more carefully, and the the 99.9% figure was obtained from some guy's quote, who didn't indicate that he had conducted a study of any kind.  Maybe was referring to life scientists specifically.  The point is, you have to be extremely prideful to think that you know more than all of those scientists, especially when you think that the evidence for evolution is equivalent to asserting that blue is the best color, or whatever ridiculousness that guy said.  

Believe me, your point loses no validity with this slightly reduced figure.
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« Reply #5749 on: January 23, 2015, 12:51:32 PM »


 
As for passions, yes, I have pointed this out frequently. Many evolutionists are quite militant and passionate about their theory. And this is hardly indicative of the true scientific spirit which is unbiased, objective, and does not allow emotions to interfere with the scientific method. It really is a religion with some people, and they really do have a fundamentalist attitude about it. In fact, one evolutionist here has already accused me of being small minded and told me to repent because I simply remain open and objective about the issue. It is strange, but not uncommon, to see evolutionists exude such passions about a scientific theory. Of course, there are others like yourself, who can discuss the subject with dispassionate reasoning. And I appreciate that.

Selam

Gebre, we all have our passions. It doesn't mean we are biased or close-minded. It simply means we also don't appreciate how you misrepresent science.  Much in the same way as how you get fired up when you hate how people misrepresent Rastafarians.
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« Reply #5750 on: January 23, 2015, 01:20:14 PM »


 
As for passions, yes, I have pointed this out frequently. Many evolutionists are quite militant and passionate about their theory. And this is hardly indicative of the true scientific spirit which is unbiased, objective, and does not allow emotions to interfere with the scientific method. It really is a religion with some people, and they really do have a fundamentalist attitude about it. In fact, one evolutionist here has already accused me of being small minded and told me to repent because I simply remain open and objective about the issue. It is strange, but not uncommon, to see evolutionists exude such passions about a scientific theory. Of course, there are others like yourself, who can discuss the subject with dispassionate reasoning. And I appreciate that.

Selam

Gebre, we all have our passions. It doesn't mean we are biased or close-minded. It simply means we also don't appreciate how you misrepresent science.  Much in the same way as how you get fired up when you hate how people misrepresent Rastafarians.

Fair enough. My apologies to you and to theuerjb for being a sarcastic jerk too often in this discussion.


Selam
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« Reply #5751 on: January 23, 2015, 01:32:31 PM »


Thank you for understanding my point. And thank you for your prayers. I certainly need them.

Selam

But the tyranny of reality supports common descent!  My evolutionary biology textbook (Evolutionary Biology by Douglas Futuyma) doesn't appeal to authority, it appeals to evidence!  I hope that you'll accept the scientific truth someday.

IC XC NIKA

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.  Wink


Selam
Perhaps we should accept that scientific proof with the same certainty those scientists profess.  NASA is 38% sure this was year was the hottest ever recorded.  That means they are 62% sure it isnt, but that didn't stop their "factual" claim.
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« Reply #5752 on: January 23, 2015, 01:49:54 PM »


hahahahhaah, while I do not agree with you re evolution, this post is simply fantastic

I thought that it was funny that the science-denier was comparing a scientifically literate person with Jack Chick.  Projection indeed.
Science denier?  No, friend.  It's scientism/evolution denier, get it right.  There is nothing wrong with science.  We love science.  We just don't blindly fall in formation and agreement "because scientists say so" without sufficient proof.  Hello global warming alarmists.  Hello Piltdown Man.  Hello inability to admit mistakez, rather saying "we learn more each day."  Hello thousands of other ignorances provided over the years.
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« Reply #5753 on: January 23, 2015, 01:57:27 PM »


 
As for passions, yes, I have pointed this out frequently. Many evolutionists are quite militant and passionate about their theory. And this is hardly indicative of the true scientific spirit which is unbiased, objective, and does not allow emotions to interfere with the scientific method. It really is a religion with some people, and they really do have a fundamentalist attitude about it. In fact, one evolutionist here has already accused me of being small minded and told me to repent because I simply remain open and objective about the issue. It is strange, but not uncommon, to see evolutionists exude such passions about a scientific theory. Of course, there are others like yourself, who can discuss the subject with dispassionate reasoning. And I appreciate that.

Selam

Gebre, we all have our passions. It doesn't mean we are biased or close-minded. It simply means we also don't appreciate how you misrepresent science.  Much in the same way as how you get fired up when you hate how people misrepresent Rastafarians.

Fair enough. My apologies to you and to theuerjb for being a sarcastic jerk too often in this discussion.


Selam

I was worse than you, honestly.  Please pray for my serenity and repentance.  Seriously. 
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« Reply #5754 on: January 23, 2015, 01:59:30 PM »

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hominin-ancestors-australopithecus-had-opposable-thumbs-3-2-million-year-ago-1484726

Quote
The species that gave rise to the Homo genus had human-like hands and opposable thumbs as early as 3.2 million years ago, scientists have discovered.

Analysis of bones from Australopithecus africanus shows our pre-human ancestors likely used stone tools about half a million years earlier than thought.

Published in Science magazine, the researchers used new techniques to examine the internal, spongy structure of the bone called the trabeculae – a bone that reflects the behaviour of individuals in their lifetimes.

After looking at humans and chimpanzees, researchers found Australopithecus had a human-like trabecular pattern in the bones of the thumb and palm consistent with the opposition of the thumb and fingers, normally seen during tool use.

What have you to say to this, Kerdy? 
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« Reply #5755 on: January 23, 2015, 02:23:33 PM »


hahahahhaah, while I do not agree with you re evolution, this post is simply fantastic

I thought that it was funny that the science-denier was comparing a scientifically literate person with Jack Chick.  Projection indeed.
Science denier?  No, friend.  It's scientism/evolution denier, get it right.  There is nothing wrong with science.  We love science.  We just don't blindly fall in formation and agreement "because scientists say so" without sufficient proof.  Hello global warming alarmists.  Hello Piltdown Man.  Hello inability to admit mistakez, rather saying "we learn more each day."  Hello thousands of other ignorances provided over the years.

Welcome back! As I said to Gebre, some of us are passionate.  So please after we made some peace here, don't errupt this thread into violence again.
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« Reply #5756 on: January 23, 2015, 04:35:50 PM »


hahahahhaah, while I do not agree with you re evolution, this post is simply fantastic

I thought that it was funny that the science-denier was comparing a scientifically literate person with Jack Chick.  Projection indeed.
Science denier?  No, friend.  It's scientism/evolution denier, get it right.  There is nothing wrong with science.  We love science.  We just don't blindly fall in formation and agreement "because scientists say so" without sufficient proof.  Hello global warming alarmists.  Hello Piltdown Man.  Hello inability to admit mistakez, rather saying "we learn more each day."  Hello thousands of other ignorances provided over the years.

Welcome back! As I said to Gebre, some of us are passionate.  So please after we made some peace here, don't errupt this thread into violence again.
I'm not back.  I just poke in from time to time.  Others are passionate as well.  I never erupted anything into violence, whatever that's supposed to mean.  I just enjoy making corrections where needed.  Carry on.
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« Reply #5757 on: January 24, 2015, 01:20:44 AM »


hahahahhaah, while I do not agree with you re evolution, this post is simply fantastic

I thought that it was funny that the science-denier was comparing a scientifically literate person with Jack Chick.  Projection indeed.
Science denier?  No, friend.  It's scientism/evolution denier, get it right.  There is nothing wrong with science.  We love science.  We just don't blindly fall in formation and agreement "because scientists say so" without sufficient proof.  Hello global warming alarmists.  Hello Piltdown Man.  Hello inability to admit mistakez, rather saying "we learn more each day."  Hello thousands of other ignorances provided over the years.

Welcome back! As I said to Gebre, some of us are passionate.  So please after we made some peace here, don't errupt this thread into violence again.
I'm not back.  I just poke in from time to time.  Others are passionate as well.  I never erupted anything into violence, whatever that's supposed to mean.  I just enjoy making corrections where needed.
What "corrections" are you making here?
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« Reply #5758 on: January 24, 2015, 01:23:29 AM »


hahahahhaah, while I do not agree with you re evolution, this post is simply fantastic

I thought that it was funny that the science-denier was comparing a scientifically literate person with Jack Chick.  Projection indeed.
Science denier?  No, friend.  It's scientism/evolution denier, get it right.  There is nothing wrong with science.  We love science.  We just don't blindly fall in formation and agreement "because scientists say so" without sufficient proof.  Hello global warming alarmists.  Hello Piltdown Man.  Hello inability to admit mistakez, rather saying "we learn more each day."  Hello thousands of other ignorances provided over the years.

Welcome back! As I said to Gebre, some of us are passionate.  So please after we made some peace here, don't errupt this thread into violence again.
I'm not back.  I just poke in from time to time.  Others are passionate as well.  I never erupted anything into violence, whatever that's supposed to mean.  I just enjoy making corrections where needed.
What "corrections" are you making here?

I really did not want to reply to him, because doing so only would escalate the problem.  Tongue  And answering his challenges would only add to the redundancy in this thread.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 01:24:01 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Tags: science Theory of Evolution evolution creationism cheval mort 
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