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Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

Yes
59 (15.5%)
No
147 (38.6%)
both metaphorically and literally
175 (45.9%)

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Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 684953 times)

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Offline ativan

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5985 on: September 19, 2015, 08:25:05 PM »
Evolutionary story-tellers (ESTs) want us to believe that organelles such as mitochondria and chloroplasts have evolved through the process of endosymbiosis. Basically their logic is such: one upon a time there was a big bacterium B and small bacterium S. B was always swallowing S and devouring it up until certain time when all of a sudden B and S (predator and prey) decided to cohabit and live in piece. That this is a fact (exactly, for ESTs this is an undeniable fact without doubt) they bring 2 lines of "evidence". First, S has 2 membranes, inner and outer. Inner membrane is similar to bacterial membrane and outer membrane is similar to eukaryotic membrane. Second, S possesses circular DNA which is found in bacteria. This bedtime story is all gaps and no science. Reasons are multiple:

1) Both B and S before they became BS (:)) were independently living organisms. This means that both possessed all the functions (including production of energy rich molecules or some type of energy producing source, maintenance of homeostasis, replication, response to environmental stimuli and so on) necessary for life. None of them were deficient of anything that would prevent their survival. Thus, there was no need at all to start endosymbiotic relationship. There's no rational explanation from ESTs why this should have happened.

2) On one hand B was prokaryotic organism meaning that it had no nucleus, had circular DNA and had a cell wall (which would become outer cell wall for S) similar to prokaryotic cell wall. This means that A) outer cell wall for S should be more like a bacterial cell wall and not like a eukaryotic cell wall; B) B's genome should be composed of circular DNA and not a eukaryotic like DNA encased in nuclear membrane as is the case for prokaryotes. We know that prokaryotes have nuclear membrane with totally different chromosomes within the membrane since by the time BS was formed B was prokaryote. Simply put there was no nuclear membrane in B. Please notice that I'm using same logic as is used by ESTs. So, if any EST counteracts this argument by introducing more nighttime stories saying S's outer membrane in BS stage evolved later and became prokaryote-like and somehow B while being in early BS stage later gained nucleus miraculously and changed their genome from circular to more complex one, they will counteract their arguments too. Plus, they will introduce huge gaps which has no scientific logic and no shred of evidence to support their nighttime stories.

3) Since most of the proteins necessary for mitochondrial or chloroplastic functions are coded in nuclear DNA then after forming nucleated form of BS either large amount of genetic material of S was somehow transferred to BS's nucleus or S just lost large amount of genetic material and the same genes were manufactured the novo in nucleated BS's nucleus. Which nighttime story they chose that's up to them. Main question though is: Can ESTs deal with so much unsurmountable problems? They can't but I'm sure they will still call their stories undoubtable scientific theory based on facts.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5986 on: September 19, 2015, 08:34:45 PM »
Science really can't ask any  ....

Science can't ask ANYTHING, just as moss, the number 5, the letters "http," abortions, and love can't ask anything. PEOPLE who are scientists, on the other hand, can. Try starting from there and rethinking what claims you've posted on the thread...
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5987 on: September 21, 2015, 07:25:53 PM »
Scientists working towards common goals can answer questions in the name of science though.
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Offline fritzchery

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5988 on: January 28, 2016, 03:31:08 PM »
If a big bang happened wouldn’t everything be in chaos and out of place? How is it that the whole universe, nature, and everything is perfectly set in place? This verse says it all. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. http://biblereasons.com/is-god-real/

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5989 on: January 28, 2016, 03:50:15 PM »
If a big bang happened wouldn’t everything be in chaos and out of place? How is it that the whole universe, nature, and everything is perfectly set in place? This verse says it all. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. http://biblereasons.com/is-god-real/
Why would you believe that God wasn't directing the big bang as He does with all events, natural or supernatural?
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5990 on: January 28, 2016, 09:39:27 PM »
Science really can't ask any  ....

Science can't ask ANYTHING, just as moss, the number 5, the letters "http," abortions, and love can't ask anything. PEOPLE who are scientists, on the other hand, can. Try starting from there and rethinking what claims you've posted on the thread...

Exactly. And I think this really gets to the heart of the matter. The greatest scientists are those with unlimited curiosity. They constantly ask questions until empirical proof answers those questions beyond any shadow of a doubt. And I think what troubles most of us who simply remain agnostic about evolution is that evolutionists have jettisoned their questions and curiosity about the matter. They no longer ask. They prejudicially assume something that has not been empirically proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. It's one thing to say they "believe," they are "confident," their studies "lead them to embrace the theory," etc. I wouldn't mind that. Just keep questioning, keep asking, keep an open mind and be rigidly demanding about empirical import. But when they shut down their curiosity and militantly disallow any competing evidentiary arguments, then they cease to be scientists and become mere propagandists. But I know we've been over all this before. Just wanted to say that I agree that scientists should ask questions, and not just questions that serve their own presuppositions.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5991 on: January 29, 2016, 12:01:36 AM »
I would love to see any valid alternative and if there are ways to test them.  But knowing the science myself, as I have explained to many people, my conscience does not allow me to contradict the massive evidence that supports evolution.  Yes, we should question it, but it has gotten to a point where valid alternatives are very limited, if at all.

So I respectfully disagree with you in that regard.  It is sad many evolutionists have to resort to ways similar to propogandizing.  But the science is undeniable in my experience.  It is just as undeniable as the clinical brain damage that has been an effect from many football players.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5992 on: January 29, 2016, 01:16:55 AM »
If a big bang happened wouldn’t everything be in chaos and out of place?
What is the demonstration for this?
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