Poll

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

Yes
66 (16.2%)
No
157 (38.5%)
both metaphorically and literally
185 (45.3%)

Total Members Voted: 408

Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 1184138 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6210 on: Today at 03:44:28 PM »
Again, what would you accept as proof that X happened two thousand years ago?
Faith

Faith in what?
In exactly what made Peter say "Thou art Christ, the son of the living God". The proof comes with faith. Faith is the reward. I don't need a church father to tell me about whether God created the world in 6 days or not for that.

Let me put it simple. If you must believe in a literal 6 day creation in order for your faith in Christ not to collapse, then you had no real faith in Christ to start with.

This is an interesting "faith", in which one can accept the resurrection without proof because "faith" but cannot at the same time believe in a "literal 6 day creation" because "science". 
Quote
"What people say when they speak on their own account is repellent and murksome, for their words do not come from the living spring of the Spirit, but are spawned from the morass of their own heart, a bog infested with the leeches, snakes and frogs of desire, delusion and dissipation; the water of their knowledge is evil-smelling, turbid and torpid, sickening to those who drink it and filling them with nausea and disgust."

Gregory of Sinai, On Commandments and Doctrines

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6211 on: Today at 04:20:34 PM »
Truth.  Not that I'm an expert in consistent logic.  ;)

But beebert, I wonder if you are reacting against the Ken Ham and Kent Hovind crowd?  I do completely understand such an aversion, as I hit that wall during my time in evangelicalism.  But consider that perhaps crowd A and crowd B having X in common does not mean they have all other things in common, such as the evangelical demand that one accepts YEC before "allowing" that one to be saved (or indeed, even able to understand "the rest of the Bible").  I could be wrong, but I don't think such a demand is a major feature in Orthodoxy.

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6212 on: Today at 05:39:59 PM »
Again, what would you accept as proof that X happened two thousand years ago?
Faith

Faith in what?
In exactly what made Peter say "Thou art Christ, the son of the living God". The proof comes with faith. Faith is the reward. I don't need a church father to tell me about whether God created the world in 6 days or not for that.

Let me put it simple. If you must believe in a literal 6 day creation in order for your faith in Christ not to collapse, then you had no real faith in Christ to start with.

This is an interesting "faith", in which one can accept the resurrection without proof because "faith" but cannot at the same time believe in a "literal 6 day creation" because "science".
You believe in the 6 day creation and a young earth? If so, you really must suspend all your rational faculties. If I did that I would go even more insane. Now. I hold what I said before. If you must believe in a young earth and a 6 day creation in order to have faith in Christ, you have no faith in him. Why trust anything we observe? Why trust that the earth moves around the sun? Now the bible seems to believe otherwise. Why believe that there are other planets? Why believe anything I see? If you believe in a 6 day creation, then you might as well dismiss all science. Do you believe fossils and skeletons of dinosaurs were put on the earth by Satan in other to deceive christians too?
« Last Edit: Today at 05:44:36 PM by beebert »

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6213 on: Today at 05:43:02 PM »
Truth.  Not that I'm an expert in consistent logic.  ;)

But beebert, I wonder if you are reacting against the Ken Ham and Kent Hovind crowd?  I do completely understand such an aversion, as I hit that wall during my time in evangelicalism.  But consider that perhaps crowd A and crowd B having X in common does not mean they have all other things in common, such as the evangelical demand that one accepts YEC before "allowing" that one to be saved (or indeed, even able to understand "the rest of the Bible").  I could be wrong, but I don't think such a demand is a major feature in Orthodoxy.
That sort of dogmatic thinking is exactly what I despise yes. I consider it one of the greatest crimes possible.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6214 on: Today at 05:45:14 PM »
Again, what would you accept as proof that X happened two thousand years ago?
Faith

Faith in what?
In exactly what made Peter say "Thou art Christ, the son of the living God". The proof comes with faith. Faith is the reward. I don't need a church father to tell me about whether God created the world in 6 days or not for that.

Let me put it simple. If you must believe in a literal 6 day creation in order for your faith in Christ not to collapse, then you had no real faith in Christ to start with.

This is an interesting "faith", in which one can accept the resurrection without proof because "faith" but cannot at the same time believe in a "literal 6 day creation" because "science".
You believe in the 6 day creation and a young earth? If so, you really must suspend all your rational faculties.

But...

Faith

Or perhaps you were not serious to begin with.

Quote
If I did that I would go even more insane. Now. I hold what I said before. If you must believe in a young earth and a 6 day creation in order to have faith in Christ, you have no faith in him.

Who said I "believe in a young earth and a 6 day creation in order to have faith in Christ"?  You are reading that into other people because you have a bizarre concept of "faith" and "science" and "knowledge" and "ignorance". 
Quote
"What people say when they speak on their own account is repellent and murksome, for their words do not come from the living spring of the Spirit, but are spawned from the morass of their own heart, a bog infested with the leeches, snakes and frogs of desire, delusion and dissipation; the water of their knowledge is evil-smelling, turbid and torpid, sickening to those who drink it and filling them with nausea and disgust."

Gregory of Sinai, On Commandments and Doctrines

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6215 on: Today at 05:53:03 PM »
What do you believe, then? How old do you believe the earth is? Was the earth created in 6 literal days?

Faith begins where the limits of reasons are found. It isn't "rational". It's a belief and trust in the strength of the absurd. I mean that which contradicts reason. Now. The literal 6 day creation isn't necessary for that. God never says "In order to have true faith and be saved, you must believe that I literally created the world in 6 days". No. I say that the letter kills but the spirit gives life.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6216 on: Today at 05:59:52 PM »
What do you believe, then?

https://oca.org/orthodoxy/prayers/symbol-of-faith

Quote
How old do you believe the earth is?

I don't know and I don't really care. 

Quote
Was the earth created in 6 literal days?

What's a literal day?

Quote
Faith begins where the limits of reasons are found. It isn't "rational". It's a belief and trust in the strength of the absurd. I mean that which contradicts reason.

Speaking of absurd, this is it.

Quote
Now. The literal 6 day creation isn't necessary for that. God never says "In order to have true faith and be saved, you must believe that I literally created the world in 6 days". No. I say that the letter kills but the spirit gives life.

If you don't want to believe in something, don't believe in it.  But if other people do believe in it, they are not totally ignorant because they don't think like you.  That's all. 
Quote
"What people say when they speak on their own account is repellent and murksome, for their words do not come from the living spring of the Spirit, but are spawned from the morass of their own heart, a bog infested with the leeches, snakes and frogs of desire, delusion and dissipation; the water of their knowledge is evil-smelling, turbid and torpid, sickening to those who drink it and filling them with nausea and disgust."

Gregory of Sinai, On Commandments and Doctrines

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6217 on: Today at 06:07:41 PM »
What do you believe, then?

https://oca.org/orthodoxy/prayers/symbol-of-faith

Quote
How old do you believe the earth is?

I don't know and I don't really care. 

Quote
Was the earth created in 6 literal days?

What's a literal day?

Quote
Faith begins where the limits of reasons are found. It isn't "rational". It's a belief and trust in the strength of the absurd. I mean that which contradicts reason.

Speaking of absurd, this is it.

Quote
Now. The literal 6 day creation isn't necessary for that. God never says "In order to have true faith and be saved, you must believe that I literally created the world in 6 days". No. I say that the letter kills but the spirit gives life.

If you don't want to believe in something, don't believe in it.  But if other people do believe in it, they are not totally ignorant because they don't think like you.  That's all.
Now, you said you don't care how old the earth is. Bravo! THat is EXACTLY what I said before. I don't remember if it was in this thread. But a christian should never preach that the earth is 6000 years old if he doesn't know it. It simply doesn't matter for the faith. And that was my whole point. Now I don't like Tertullian, but wasn't he the one who said the he believed because it is absurd? It IS absurd to believe that God, the maker of this infinite universe, was incarnated by being born by a virgin, died on a cross and raised from the dead again. Now. That is absurd. That is absurd for what? For our reason. That is why one can not simply "believe". God's grace, a miracle, is required. To say otherwise is stupid. Is it regular that a man can raise other men from the dead, heal the sick and the blind etc? No. In order to have faith in the miracles and everything in the bible, you must in some way go against your natural reason. What is so strange about that? That it appears absurd doesn't mean it isn't true.
« Last Edit: Today at 06:12:03 PM by beebert »

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6218 on: Today at 06:35:37 PM »
This:
Truth.  Not that I'm an expert in consistent logic.  ;)

Was in response to this:
This is an interesting "faith", in which one can accept the resurrection without proof because "faith" but cannot at the same time believe in a "literal 6 day creation" because "science".

Guess I should quote more.   :D

But beebert, I wonder if you are reacting against the Ken Ham and Kent Hovind crowd?  I do completely understand such an aversion, as I hit that wall during my time in evangelicalism.  But consider that perhaps crowd A and crowd B having X in common does not mean they have all other things in common, such as the evangelical demand that one accepts YEC before "allowing" that one to be saved (or indeed, even able to understand "the rest of the Bible").  I could be wrong, but I don't think such a demand is a major feature in Orthodoxy.
That sort of dogmatic thinking is exactly what I despise yes. I consider it one of the greatest crimes possible.
What you're doing, though, is exactly what the Evangelical YECers do--making it a binary decision instead of allowing space for difference where it's probably really ok (within limits).  You're demanding that people believe the earth isn't 6000 years old before you take them seriously.  Same method, opposite direction.  And I'm sure you're not alone, but if you're going to rant against a particular tactic (which I agree is maddening; I wanted to shake those guys silly for a while there)...don't employ it yourself.  And I'm sure I'll turn and catch myself needing my own advice, but there it is anyway.  :D

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6219 on: Today at 06:37:27 PM »
This:
Truth.  Not that I'm an expert in consistent logic.  ;)

Was in response to this:
This is an interesting "faith", in which one can accept the resurrection without proof because "faith" but cannot at the same time believe in a "literal 6 day creation" because "science".

Guess I should quote more.   :D

But beebert, I wonder if you are reacting against the Ken Ham and Kent Hovind crowd?  I do completely understand such an aversion, as I hit that wall during my time in evangelicalism.  But consider that perhaps crowd A and crowd B having X in common does not mean they have all other things in common, such as the evangelical demand that one accepts YEC before "allowing" that one to be saved (or indeed, even able to understand "the rest of the Bible").  I could be wrong, but I don't think such a demand is a major feature in Orthodoxy.
That sort of dogmatic thinking is exactly what I despise yes. I consider it one of the greatest crimes possible.
What you're doing, though, is exactly what the Evangelical YECers do--making it a binary decision instead of allowing space for difference where it's probably really ok (within limits).  You're demanding that people believe the earth isn't 6000 years old before you take them seriously.  Same method, opposite direction.  And I'm sure you're not alone, but if you're going to rant against a particular tactic (which I agree is maddening; I wanted to shake those guys silly for a while there)...don't employ it yourself.  And I'm sure I'll turn and catch myself needing my own advice, but there it is anyway.  :D
I am not demanding that people stop believing the earth is 6000 years old. I demand that people stop preaching it and threat others who don't believe it with eternal hell. But I see what you are saying, and you make a good point.
« Last Edit: Today at 06:38:07 PM by beebert »