Poll

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

Yes
61 (15.5%)
No
152 (38.6%)
both metaphorically and literally
181 (45.9%)

Total Members Voted: 394

Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 1070741 times)

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Evolution is not relevant to big bang - Evolution is the THEORY of Darwanism - which in his own book (paghe 176 off memory for my copy) he admits it is just a theory and he has no scientific evidence to support his Theory.

As for the big bang - the Pope would be correct in saying the Big Bang theory REQUIRES God as a mathematician mate worked out you have more chance for flipping heads 400 times in a row than the big bang occurring without a trigger. That Trigger being GOD.


Um, no. Darwinism is no longer the model that the theory of evolution follows. Also, there's no reason to believe God was necessary for the Big Bang. There's no reason to believe anything really, nothing is concrete.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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The headline is a bit misleading. The Pope didn't try to hammer the idea that evolution and the Big Bang are 100% real--though he certainly recognizes the overwhelming evidence for both ideas. Instead, his primary focus was to emphasize that neither evolutionary theory nor the Big Bang theory are inherently contradictory to the biblical notion that God is the Creator and is ever-present with creation:

Quote
The Big Bang theory, which is proposed today as the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of a divine creator but depends on it. Evolution in nature does not conflict with the notion of Creation, because evolution presupposes the creation of beings who evolve.

The Pope does warn against thinking that the Creator in Genesis acts like an all-powerful magician with a wand. Rather, God grants creation a structure, what we call the laws of nature, that govern how creation will develop. The idea of God creating the laws of nature is not incompatible with "intelligent design" or even forms of creationism; but it is also not inherently incompatible with a Christian understanding of the Big Bang theory and evolutionary theory.
Wow, I am impressed with you as someone who actually reads the whole article and understands it.

Offline orthoreader

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Offline NicholasMyra

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There's no reason to believe anything really
You don't believe that!
Quote from: Pope Francis
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Offline scamandrius

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There's no reason to believe anything really
You don't believe that!

sure he does.
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Offline mcarmichael

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nothing is concrete.
what about concrete? why is it called concrete if it isn't concrete? Think about it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 01:15:36 AM by mcarmichael »
Sun Tzu said:
This is war.
It is the most important skill in the nation.
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It is the philosophy of survival or destruction.
You must know it well.

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Offline WPM

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If that is what you believe.

Offline beebert

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I can't understand the problem so many Christians have with evolution and big bang. They do not disprove the Christian God in any way. They might disprove that everything in the bible shall be taken literally But that is Good. The bible is a spiritual text. It is not a science textbook. It is ridiculous to read and hear about the views of fundamentalists who do not understand neither the bible nor science. The creation story for example is spiritual. Not literal.

Offline servulus

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I can't understand the problem so many Christians have with evolution and big bang. They do not disprove the Christian God in any way. They might disprove that everything in the bible shall be taken literally But that is Good. The bible is a spiritual text. It is not a science textbook. It is ridiculous to read and hear about the views of fundamentalists who do not understand neither the bible nor science. The creation story for example is spiritual. Not literal.
If evolution is true doesn't that mean that death isn't a result of the fall?

Offline beebert

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I can't understand the problem so many Christians have with evolution and big bang. They do not disprove the Christian God in any way. They might disprove that everything in the bible shall be taken literally But that is Good. The bible is a spiritual text. It is not a science textbook. It is ridiculous to read and hear about the views of fundamentalists who do not understand neither the bible nor science. The creation story for example is spiritual. Not literal.
If evolution is true doesn't that mean that death isn't a result of the fall?

There is no question that animal species develop in an evolutionary if we trust what we can scientifically observe with help of reason and our senses. But the question about trusting our senses and reasoning and observations about reality Will Always come up. But then, can we trust anything? Can we trust that other beings than ourselves exist? Han är trust the sun exists? Can we trust that the Earth is not flat? These are also things we observe. I still Believe in the fall and how man has fallen which has resulted in death. Most inportantly spiritually. For me there is no contradiction. We Will never understand all mysteries of God and his creation. We have understood many things spiritually, But how these spiritual truths happened in reality we don't know. Maybe man has a special Place in evolution where he was first under grace but fell and as a result became part of the for us "curse" evolution, slaves of the material world and of Nature instead of masters of it all. We have clearly fallen from a better intended State, how exactly it happened we do not know. Spiritually we know from scripture and that is what counts

Offline servulus

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It would be helpful to me if you could explain how animals and man evolved before the fall. I thought the Church teaches that death and corruption entered the world through sin.

Offline beebert

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It would be helpful to me if you could explain how animals and man evolved before the fall. I thought the Church teaches that death and corruption entered the world through sin.

I do not know But for example, dinosaurs lived before human beings right? And they died. There was a race before homo sapiens called homo erectus. They died. I think man was still created immortal but fell and became part of evolution perhaps?

Offline TaiKamiya720

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http://www.creatio.orthodoxy.ru/sbornik/sbufeev_whynot_english.html. This Orthodox priest even has quotes from saints that directly refer against evolution.

Offline beebert

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http://www.creatio.orthodoxy.ru/sbornik/sbufeev_whynot_english.html. This Orthodox priest even has quotes from saints that directly refer against evolution.

Yes but they are not scientists. Well I don't know if evolution is true of Course but I consider it weak to dismiss it because one finds it incompatible with christian dogmas, because I find nothing with evolution that can dismiss the Christian truth

Offline minasoliman

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http://www.creatio.orthodoxy.ru/sbornik/sbufeev_whynot_english.html. This Orthodox priest even has quotes from saints that directly refer against evolution.

What does "soul" mean?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline beebert

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"Really, evolution is not even a scientific truth (a fact, a law or an inference): its existence cannot be scientifically proved or disproved since it cannot be observed. Hence, according to the precise definition by Apostle Paul, evolution is a subject of faith as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

This is not true.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6046 on: January 27, 2017, 07:51:14 PM »
I went ahead and merged the topic to an older thread.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline mcarmichael

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I can't understand the problem so many Christians have with evolution and big bang. They do not disprove the Christian God in any way. They might disprove that everything in the bible shall be taken literally But that is Good. The bible is a spiritual text. It is not a science textbook. It is ridiculous to read and hear about the views of fundamentalists who do not understand neither the bible nor science. The creation story for example is spiritual. Not literal.
If evolution is true doesn't that mean that death isn't a result of the fall?
No. Presumably there has always been cell death, at least, as the fruits were eaten.
Sun Tzu said:
This is war.
It is the most important skill in the nation.
It is the basis of life and death.
It is the philosophy of survival or destruction.
You must know it well.

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

Offline minasoliman

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I can't understand the problem so many Christians have with evolution and big bang. They do not disprove the Christian God in any way. They might disprove that everything in the bible shall be taken literally But that is Good. The bible is a spiritual text. It is not a science textbook. It is ridiculous to read and hear about the views of fundamentalists who do not understand neither the bible nor science. The creation story for example is spiritual. Not literal.
If evolution is true doesn't that mean that death isn't a result of the fall?
No. Presumably there has always been cell death, at least, as the fruits were eaten.

Wel, if you want take the story literally sure!

But St. Gregory the Theologian explains that these were not plants but "virtues".  In other words, Eden was a place Adam was assured to grow in theosis.

Either way, both interpretations does not seem to disprove evolution.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline servulus

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It would be helpful to me if you could explain how animals and man evolved before the fall. I thought the Church teaches that death and corruption entered the world through sin.

I do not know But for example, dinosaurs lived before human beings right? And they died. There was a race before homo sapiens called homo erectus. They died. I think man was still created immortal but fell and became part of evolution perhaps?
I don't have enough faith in science to accept these things. It would have to be shown to me that the Church teaches that death and corruption could have began before the fall.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6050 on: January 27, 2017, 11:48:37 PM »
I don't have faith in any science either: engineering, medicine, chemistry, physics, biology.  I have faith only in God and the Church, through whom all science I learn is for their glory, not for science's sake.

So I agree...you shouldn't have faith in anything in this world, even yourself. 

But that doesn't mean you ignore reality.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline mcarmichael

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Wel, if you want take the story literally sure!


I'm glad you agree! :smileyface:
Sun Tzu said:
This is war.
It is the most important skill in the nation.
It is the basis of life and death.
It is the philosophy of survival or destruction.
You must know it well.

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

Offline servulus

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6052 on: January 28, 2017, 01:18:42 AM »
I don't have faith in any science either: engineering, medicine, chemistry, physics, biology.  I have faith only in God and the Church, through whom all science I learn is for their glory, not for science's sake.

So I agree...you shouldn't have faith in anything in this world, even yourself. 

But that doesn't mean you ignore reality.
Agreed.

The only thing that really bothers me about the issue is that it seems that Orthodoxy teaches that death and disease came with the fall. I could be wrong but this is my impression. It seems that this doesn't only apply to mankind but to all of creation. Is the idea that Adam and Eves parents died before the fall compatible with Orthodoxy?

Offline beebert

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It would be helpful to me if you could explain how animals and man evolved before the fall. I thought the Church teaches that death and corruption entered the world through sin.

I do not know But for example, dinosaurs lived before human beings right? And they died. There was a race before homo sapiens called homo erectus. They died. I think man was still created immortal but fell and became part of evolution perhaps?
I don't have enough faith in science to accept these things. It would have to be shown to me that the Church teaches that death and corruption could have began before the fall.

Science is basically about observation. Galileo Galileo and Copernicus discovered plenty of things about the movement of the earth and the relation between the Earth and the sun. They were of Course right. To say otherwise, like Luther, Calvin and the catholic church did is plain stupid. Things like that is what makes atheists rudicule religion. We shall not be supestitious enemies to science. That just shows our own weakness and insecurities. I mean, we have SEEN and CALCULATED that dinosaurs existed and how long ago. The evidence is about as big as that the Earth is not flat. Fotosynthesis is also a proved fact. What does these things prove in themself? Not more than that they observe facts seen. Just as we see that birds fly and fishes swim. Or are de to question these things as well? Why then trust anything? Att trust that Christ rose from the dead even if we saw him? Why trust even the existence of Christ if he even showed himself to me personally? Why trust my own existence? Why trust the bible? Why trust anything?

Science explains things observable. It can never and Will never disprove God or the spiritual truth of scripture. Because science can not, as Kant has famously shown, observe the thing-in-itself.

The Saint (I Guess he was a saint) in the article that there was a Link to above said that the depravity of the West is because of rationalism and that they have accepted science and rationalism and trusted it. I agree to a certain extent but not completely. I say the reason is just as much that the christian religion in the West har a history of fighting science, fighting over dogmas and killing heretics and this has led to the great gulf between science and religion. Thé Christian religion has too often been superstitious.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 05:36:14 AM by beebert »

Offline servulus

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It would be helpful to me if you could explain how animals and man evolved before the fall. I thought the Church teaches that death and corruption entered the world through sin.

I do not know But for example, dinosaurs lived before human beings right? And they died. There was a race before homo sapiens called homo erectus. They died. I think man was still created immortal but fell and became part of evolution perhaps?
I don't have enough faith in science to accept these things. It would have to be shown to me that the Church teaches that death and corruption could have began before the fall.

Science is basically about observation. Galileo Galileo and Copernicus discovered plenty of things about the movement of the earth and the relation between the Earth and the sun. They were of Course right. To say otherwise, like Luther, Calvin and the catholic church did is plain stupid. Things like that is what makes atheists rudicule religion. We shall not be supestitious enemies to science. That just shows our own weakness and insecurities. I mean, we have SEEN and CALCULATED that dinosaurs existed and how long ago. The evidence is about as big as that the Earth is not flat. Fotosynthesis is also a proved fact. What does these things prove in themself? Not more than that they observe facts seen. Just as we see that birds fly and fishes swim. Or are de to question these things as well? Why then trust anything? Att trust that Christ rose from the dead even if we saw him? Why trust even the existence of Christ if he even showed himself to me personally? Why trust my own existence? Why trust the bible? Why trust anything?

Science explains things observable. It can never and Will never disprove God or the spiritual truth of scripture. Because science can not, as Kant has famously shown, observe the thing-in-itself.
If the Church teaches that death didn't occur until the fall and science teaches that death came before they would not be compatible. That is my concern. I have seen scientific arguments for and against evolution, that is not what I'm concerned about here. You are saying that evolution is compatible with Orthodoxy, show me where I'm misunderstanding Orthodox teaching.

Offline beebert

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It would be helpful to me if you could explain how animals and man evolved before the fall. I thought the Church teaches that death and corruption entered the world through sin.

I do not know But for example, dinosaurs lived before human beings right? And they died. There was a race before homo sapiens called homo erectus. They died. I think man was still created immortal but fell and became part of evolution perhaps?
I don't have enough faith in science to accept these things. It would have to be shown to me that the Church teaches that death and corruption could have began before the fall.

Science is basically about observation. Galileo Galileo and Copernicus discovered plenty of things about the movement of the earth and the relation between the Earth and the sun. They were of Course right. To say otherwise, like Luther, Calvin and the catholic church did is plain stupid. Things like that is what makes atheists rudicule religion. We shall not be supestitious enemies to science. That just shows our own weakness and insecurities. I mean, we have SEEN and CALCULATED that dinosaurs existed and how long ago. The evidence is about as big as that the Earth is not flat. Fotosynthesis is also a proved fact. What does these things prove in themself? Not more than that they observe facts seen. Just as we see that birds fly and fishes swim. Or are de to question these things as well? Why then trust anything? Att trust that Christ rose from the dead even if we saw him? Why trust even the existence of Christ if he even showed himself to me personally? Why trust my own existence? Why trust the bible? Why trust anything?

Science explains things observable. It can never and Will never disprove God or the spiritual truth of scripture. Because science can not, as Kant has famously shown, observe the thing-in-itself.
If the Church teaches that death didn't occur until the fall and science teaches that death came before they would not be compatible. That is my concern. I have seen scientific arguments for and against evolution, that is not what I'm concerned about here. You are saying that evolution is compatible with Orthodoxy, show me where I'm misunderstanding Orthodox teaching.
Do you think dinosaurs never existed? Does the church teach death didn't occur for animals as well?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 06:42:04 AM by beebert »

Offline servulus

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It would be helpful to me if you could explain how animals and man evolved before the fall. I thought the Church teaches that death and corruption entered the world through sin.

I do not know But for example, dinosaurs lived before human beings right? And they died. There was a race before homo sapiens called homo erectus. They died. I think man was still created immortal but fell and became part of evolution perhaps?
I don't have enough faith in science to accept these things. It would have to be shown to me that the Church teaches that death and corruption could have began before the fall.

Science is basically about observation. Galileo Galileo and Copernicus discovered plenty of things about the movement of the earth and the relation between the Earth and the sun. They were of Course right. To say otherwise, like Luther, Calvin and the catholic church did is plain stupid. Things like that is what makes atheists rudicule religion. We shall not be supestitious enemies to science. That just shows our own weakness and insecurities. I mean, we have SEEN and CALCULATED that dinosaurs existed and how long ago. The evidence is about as big as that the Earth is not flat. Fotosynthesis is also a proved fact. What does these things prove in themself? Not more than that they observe facts seen. Just as we see that birds fly and fishes swim. Or are de to question these things as well? Why then trust anything? Att trust that Christ rose from the dead even if we saw him? Why trust even the existence of Christ if he even showed himself to me personally? Why trust my own existence? Why trust the bible? Why trust anything?

Science explains things observable. It can never and Will never disprove God or the spiritual truth of scripture. Because science can not, as Kant has famously shown, observe the thing-in-itself.
If the Church teaches that death didn't occur until the fall and science teaches that death came before they would not be compatible. That is my concern. I have seen scientific arguments for and against evolution, that is not what I'm concerned about here. You are saying that evolution is compatible with Orthodoxy, show me where I'm misunderstanding Orthodox teaching.
Do you think dinosaurs never existed? Does the church teach death didn't occur for animals as well?
Of course, I believe dinosaurs existed.
I am asking you if the Church teaches that animals died before the fall.

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6057 on: January 28, 2017, 07:40:50 AM »
I don't know. I had always thought it was only humans that Were cerated immortal but died after the fall and that animals were created mortal

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6058 on: January 28, 2017, 12:31:47 PM »
I don't have faith in any science either: engineering, medicine, chemistry, physics, biology.  I have faith only in God and the Church, through whom all science I learn is for their glory, not for science's sake.

So I agree...you shouldn't have faith in anything in this world, even yourself. 

But that doesn't mean you ignore reality.
Agreed.

The only thing that really bothers me about the issue is that it seems that Orthodoxy teaches that death and disease came with the fall. I could be wrong but this is my impression. It seems that this doesn't only apply to mankind but to all of creation. Is the idea that Adam and Eves parents died before the fall compatible with Orthodoxy?

One of the books in my list to read is Dr. Peter Bouteneff's book:
https://www.amazon.com/Beginnings-Christian-Readings-Biblical-Narratives/dp/0801032334

He seems to concentrate on what the meaning of salvation is, that is the importance of Christ, why He was incarnate and what the destiny of man is.  I think that is the key to help answer your question.

It is a question I struggle with too, but knowing salvation as theosis, it doesn't become a stumbling block for me either.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline servulus

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6059 on: January 28, 2017, 02:12:39 PM »
Thank you, Mina.

Offline WPM

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6060 on: January 28, 2017, 02:15:15 PM »
If it didn't go from the study of fossils to TMZ it might make more sense.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6061 on: January 28, 2017, 04:05:27 PM »
If it didn't go from the study of fossils to TMZ it might make more sense.

Science sucks.
Just grab them by prayer.


Mor has spoken through George... this is the faith of the fathers!

The Church's bridegroom was never the Byzantine Empire.

Offline servulus

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6062 on: January 28, 2017, 04:34:19 PM »
If it didn't go from the study of fossils to TMZ it might make more sense.
I don't understand what you mean.

Offline WPM

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6063 on: January 28, 2017, 05:00:05 PM »
If it didn't go from the study of fossils to TMZ it might make more sense.
I don't understand what you mean.

TMZ is a TV show about celebrities in California.

Offline servulus

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6064 on: January 28, 2017, 05:05:46 PM »
I know what tmz is, I just didn't understand your metaphor.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6065 on: January 28, 2017, 06:33:49 PM »
I know what tmz is, I just didn't understand your metaphor.

Just nod and carry on.  Take a good look at his posting history
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 06:33:59 PM by minasoliman »
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6066 on: January 31, 2017, 01:12:34 AM »
I don't have faith in any science either: engineering, medicine, chemistry, physics, biology.  I have faith only in God and the Church, through whom all science I learn is for their glory, not for science's sake.

So I agree...you shouldn't have faith in anything in this world, even yourself. 

But that doesn't mean you ignore reality.
Agreed.

The only thing that really bothers me about the issue is that it seems that Orthodoxy teaches that death and disease came with the fall. I could be wrong but this is my impression. It seems that this doesn't only apply to mankind but to all of creation. Is the idea that Adam and Eves parents died before the fall compatible with Orthodoxy?

One of the books in my list to read is Dr. Peter Bouteneff's book:
https://www.amazon.com/Beginnings-Christian-Readings-Biblical-Narratives/dp/0801032334

He seems to concentrate on what the meaning of salvation is, that is the importance of Christ, why He was incarnate and what the destiny of man is.  I think that is the key to help answer your question.

It is a question I struggle with too, but knowing salvation as theosis, it doesn't become a stumbling block for me either.

Hi, Mina, Always enjoy your posts here.

God bless
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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http://www.creatio.orthodoxy.ru/sbornik/sbufeev_whynot_english.html. This Orthodox priest even has quotes from saints that directly refer against evolution.

What does "soul" mean?

Funnyhow I have been wondering if Darwin forgot one VIPart in his Theory of evolution

                                  LOVE
                                                   +
                                   Evolution
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“