Author Topic: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?  (Read 5951 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,338
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2009, 09:50:54 PM »
Though the apostolic laying on of hands (ordination) and the preservation of the apostolic preaching (correct teaching).

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Apostolic_succession

Is the Church ultimately established by Apostolic Succession or is it found ultimately within the 'Holy Spirit' which dwells upon and within the 'Body of Believers'? Is Orthodoxy ultimately "Top-Down" or "Bottom-Up"?

That is like asking if Christ is divine or human.

If there isn't an Ordained Priest among the people to preform the Mysteries can the people ordain from amongst their own or must the Mystery of Ordination come from Apostolic Succession?
The mystery of Ordination comes from the Church, which is not complete without the bishop.  As such, it is only through the bishop that the Church can ordain a man to the priesthood.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,338
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2009, 09:55:35 PM »
My priest said, and I hope I'm not misquoting him, that Apostolic Succession lies within the Church and not the man.
That understanding of Apostolic Succession is consistent with the teaching Met. John (Zizioulas) expounded upon in his book Being as Communion, so you're probably not misquoting your priest.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,696
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2009, 10:40:15 PM »
Though the apostolic laying on of hands (ordination) and the preservation of the apostolic preaching (correct teaching).

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Apostolic_succession

Is the Church ultimately established by Apostolic Succession or is it found ultimately within the 'Holy Spirit' which dwells upon and within the 'Body of Believers'? Is Orthodoxy ultimately "Top-Down" or "Bottom-Up"?

That is like asking if Christ is divine or human.

If there isn't an Ordained Priest among the people to preform the Mysteries can the people ordain from amongst their own or must the Mystery of Ordination come from Apostolic Succession?
The mystery of Ordination comes from the Church, which is not complete without the bishop.  As such, it is only through the bishop that the Church can ordain a man to the priesthood.

So the Church is complete in the Bishop Himself? This seems to be a hierarchical institution but we know that the Church is not simply the Hierarchy is it?
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,338
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2009, 10:50:08 PM »
Though the apostolic laying on of hands (ordination) and the preservation of the apostolic preaching (correct teaching).

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Apostolic_succession

Is the Church ultimately established by Apostolic Succession or is it found ultimately within the 'Holy Spirit' which dwells upon and within the 'Body of Believers'? Is Orthodoxy ultimately "Top-Down" or "Bottom-Up"?

That is like asking if Christ is divine or human.

If there isn't an Ordained Priest among the people to preform the Mysteries can the people ordain from amongst their own or must the Mystery of Ordination come from Apostolic Succession?
The mystery of Ordination comes from the Church, which is not complete without the bishop.  As such, it is only through the bishop that the Church can ordain a man to the priesthood.

So the Church is complete in the Bishop Himself?
No.  Without the Church, the Bishop has no ministry and no office.  The Bishop derives all his authority from the Church, and his office has meaning only within the Church.  Apart from the Church there is no Bishop, just as apart from the Bishop there is no Church.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,696
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2009, 11:19:29 PM »

No.  Without the Church, the Bishop has no ministry and no office.  The Bishop derives all his authority from the Church, and his office has meaning only within the Church.  Apart from the Church there is no Bishop, just as apart from the Bishop there is no Church.

You are still pointing to the fact that the very life of the Church (i.e. the Mysteries) are the possession of the Ordained Clergy. That seems to clash with the idea that the Church is the Body of the Faithful (i.e. People of God).
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,338
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2009, 11:30:09 PM »

No.  Without the Church, the Bishop has no ministry and no office.  The Bishop derives all his authority from the Church, and his office has meaning only within the Church.  Apart from the Church there is no Bishop, just as apart from the Bishop there is no Church.

You are still pointing to the fact that the very life of the Church (i.e. the Mysteries) are the possession of the Ordained Clergy.
I never said that.  ISTM that this is something you're reading into my posts.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ignatius

  • Baptacathadox
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,696
  • My Son Aidan... :-)
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2009, 11:53:10 PM »

No.  Without the Church, the Bishop has no ministry and no office.  The Bishop derives all his authority from the Church, and his office has meaning only within the Church.  Apart from the Church there is no Bishop, just as apart from the Bishop there is no Church.

You are still pointing to the fact that the very life of the Church (i.e. the Mysteries) are the possession of the Ordained Clergy.
I never said that.  ISTM that this is something you're reading into my posts.

That is possible, I guess. How does the People of God thrive outside of an Ordained Clergy? Old Believers come to mind.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Online Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,099
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2009, 01:01:18 AM »
Yes, he was.

Then why is he not listed in the apostolic lineage in the above post?

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,338
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2009, 01:37:22 AM »
How does the People of God thrive outside of an Ordained Clergy? Old Believers come to mind.
Some Old Believer sects do have ordained clergy, but I see your point. ;)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Dan-Romania

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 938
  • Why do you wear that stupid man suit?
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2009, 04:13:40 AM »
The Apostolic line is kept trough the bishops , by the laying of hands of the bishops . Priesthood is ordained by the laying of hands of an bishop, trough cheirotonia . The Bishops gives the candidate to priesthood the grace needed to perform the mysteries , and gives from the grace he received by laying of hands also , the power of invoking the Holy Spirit during Sacraments.As the Apostles received power from Jesus , and so does the Church with the apostolic succession has the power from the Apostles , and all from Jesus , in the same Spirit , the power of invoking the Holy Spirit, the power to heal , exorcise , bond and louse , etc.It says somewere that the bishop is the steward of Christ.You see this is why the Apostolic Succession is "kind of" important.
This user no longer posts here.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 39,503
Re: Does the Orthodox Church still have apostolic succession?
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2009, 09:15:55 AM »

No.  Without the Church, the Bishop has no ministry and no office.  The Bishop derives all his authority from the Church, and his office has meaning only within the Church.  Apart from the Church there is no Bishop, just as apart from the Bishop there is no Church.

You are still pointing to the fact that the very life of the Church (i.e. the Mysteries) are the possession of the Ordained Clergy.
I never said that.  ISTM that this is something you're reading into my posts.

That is possible, I guess. How does the People of God thrive outside of an Ordained Clergy? Old Believers come to mind.

Going from schism to outright heresy (which is what most Old Believers did) is not thriving.

An example of thriving would be Alaska, where after the translation of the See of Sitka to San Francisco, the Faithful rarely saw a bishop (St. Tikhon made a point of coming up, and appointing a bishop of their own) and most parishes only had readers.  And yet it became the largest Church in Alaska, and actually grew and converted more tribes AFTER the Russians left, despite (or maybe because of) the Protestant missionaries.


No.  Without the Church, the Bishop has no ministry and no office.  The Bishop derives all his authority from the Church, and his office has meaning only within the Church.  Apart from the Church there is no Bishop, just as apart from the Bishop there is no Church.

You are still pointing to the fact that the very life of the Church (i.e. the Mysteries) are the possession of the Ordained Clergy. That seems to clash with the idea that the Church is the Body of the Faithful (i.e. People of God).

No, it doesn't.  The bishop does not have the episcopate as a personal possession, so he doesn't get to take it with him into schism.  The priest doesn't have the priesthood as his personal possession, so he (and for that matter, the bishop) doesn't get to celebrate DL without a congregation, and the bishop can't be a bishop without a diocese of Faithful.  Saying a body must have a brain, a backbone, and DNA and the equipment for reproduction doesn't mean that the other members of the body are superfluous.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:28:49 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth