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Author Topic: Can Antiochian Orthodox learn from the Melkites?  (Read 5276 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rowan
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« on: July 13, 2009, 12:59:06 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 01:39:20 PM »

No matter antiochians and hagiopolites how much deeply influenced by Greeks,they are orthodox at least.....
Melkites first deeply influenced by Byzantine Greeks(this is why they be called 'melkites'——royalist);second by theomachus and pneumatomachus azimites haematophagus papist latins ;and after all they are not even orthodox...

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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 03:37:05 PM »

No matter antiochians and hagiopolites how much deeply influenced by Greeks,they are orthodox at least.....
Melkites first deeply influenced by Byzantine Greeks(this is why they be called 'melkites'——royalist);second by theomachus and pneumatomachus azimites haematophagus papist latins ;and after all they are not even orthodox...



LOL.  English?

In answer to the OP. Yes, but don't forget the Syriac Orthodox.
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 03:46:45 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 03:54:40 PM »

No matter antiochians and hagiopolites how much deeply influenced by Greeks,they are orthodox at least.....
Melkites first deeply influenced by Byzantine Greeks(this is why they be called 'melkites'——royalist);second by theomachus and pneumatomachus azimites haematophagus papist latins ;and after all they are not even orthodox...



Calm down some of our dearest posters are Melkites.  Couldn't you have at least used the alt +230 to get the æ correct?  like in hæmatophagus?  So do tell us how you really feel? 
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 04:21:13 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?

LOL.  Arabic for one.
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 04:24:18 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?

LOL.  Arabic for one.

You're such a comedian Wink

So what would be some examples of "distinctive Arab traditions" that were suppressed by "Greek traditions"?
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 04:30:08 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?

LOL.  Arabic for one.

You're such a comedian Wink

So what would be some examples of "distinctive Arab traditions" that were suppressed by "Greek traditions"?

Arabic again.

If we ignore a requirement for "distinctively Arab apart from Syriac," an obvious and glaring answer would be the suppression of the Rite of Antioch, and the substitution of the Rite of Constantinople in its stead.
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 05:11:26 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?

Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it? There is no distinction between these in our Church. The Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch of Antioch practice in Byzantine forms inherited from the EP. Given this event in history, I’m just curious about the forms that grew organically in the Arab Orthodox community before the installation of the Greek hierarchy into the Antiochian Patriarchate, and wondering if looking at a Patriarchate that has historically been under the control of Arab Christians (such as the Melkites) can shed some light on this. The lives of Arabic saints? Theology expressed in the Arabic? Primary Arab sources available? Things like that.

A certain ‘ethos’ is what I’m trying to capture mostly. It’s very apparent when reading even the prayers of the Ethiopians, the Copts, the Armenians, the Indians, and others that there is often a distinctive spirit about them. In our Church, the faith is enriched mostly by Greek and Russian thought, which is well and good. I wanted to know how the Arabic “ethos” contributes to the faith, but then I realized I should probably find out what this is first!

(I realize the irony of using the Greek concept of “ethos” to ask about non-Greek Christianity, but for a lack of a better way…)

So, in other words, what ialmisry said.
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 05:34:33 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?

Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it? There is no distinction between these in our Church. The Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch of Antioch practice in Byzantine forms inherited from the EP. Given this event in history, I’m just curious about the forms that grew organically in the Arab Orthodox community before the installation of the Greek hierarchy into the Antiochian Patriarchate, and wondering if looking at a Patriarchate that has historically been under the control of Arab Christians (such as the Melkites) can shed some light on this. The lives of Arabic saints? Theology expressed in the Arabic? Primary Arab sources available? Things like that.

A certain ‘ethos’ is what I’m trying to capture mostly. It’s very apparent when reading even the prayers of the Ethiopians, the Copts, the Armenians, the Indians, and others that there is often a distinctive spirit about them. In our Church, the faith is enriched mostly by Greek and Russian thought, which is well and good. I wanted to know how the Arabic “ethos” contributes to the faith, but then I realized I should probably find out what this is first!

(I realize the irony of using the Greek concept of “ethos” to ask about non-Greek Christianity, but for a lack of a better way…)

So, in other words, what ialmisry said.


Things like that are found here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLEaAAAACAAJ&dq=arabic+monestaries+of+Palestine
Arabic Christianity in the Monasteries of Ninth-century Palestine By Sidney Harrison Griffith
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2009, 05:53:49 PM »

Thanks! I'm trying to save money, but I'll be searching libraries for this book.
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009, 06:38:59 PM »

Thanks! I'm trying to save money, but I'll be searching libraries for this book.

Try interlibrary loan.

Variorum does a service collecting articles from peer reviewed journals, such as Griffith volume here, but they are VERY expensive.

Btw, something of interest is an anonymous apology in Arabic which seems to predate most other apologies:
http://books.google.com/books?id=G274FYdQ93EC&pg=PA57&dq=Christian+Arabic+apologetics+earliest+arabic+apology+for+christianity

There is an apology for Christianity written by the future iconoclast emperor Leo III which shows Arabic influence (Leo was born Konon in Syria, and spoke Arabic): it survives only in an Armenian translation in the historian Ghevond .  The Arabic response was found fairly recently, half in an Arabic fragment in Constantinople, half in a Morisco (Spanish written in Arabic letters) translation (the halfs over lap).  For a variety of reasons, I date the thing to c. 720.
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2009, 10:10:37 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?

LOL.  Arabic for one.

You're such a comedian Wink

So what would be some examples of "distinctive Arab traditions" that were suppressed by "Greek traditions"?

Arabic again.

Did the Melkites use Arabic exclusively from 1724?

Is language what Rowan is getting at anyway? Or customs of liturgy, spirituality, etc?

Quote
If we ignore a requirement for "distinctively Arab apart from Syriac," an obvious and glaring answer would be the suppression of the Rite of Antioch, and the substitution of the Rite of Constantinople in its stead.

Does that have anything to do with Melkite vs Antiochian Orthodox?

I am trying to understand what distinctively Arabic customs were suppressed in favor of Greek ones by the Antiochian Orthodox while the Melkites were unphased by said customs. So between 1724 and 1898, what customs were suppressed by the Greek bishops in Antioch, which were not suppressed by the Melkites?

I am asking these basic questions because I do not want to presume anything and I want to make sure I understand what exactly the question being asked is.
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2009, 11:06:16 PM »

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?

LOL.  Arabic for one.

You're such a comedian Wink

So what would be some examples of "distinctive Arab traditions" that were suppressed by "Greek traditions"?

Arabic again.

Did the Melkites use Arabic exclusively from 1724?

Yes.

Quote
Is language what Rowan is getting at anyway? Or customs of liturgy, spirituality, etc?

I'll let her answer.
If we ignore a requirement for "distinctively Arab apart from Syriac," an obvious and glaring answer would be the suppression of the Rite of Antioch, and the substitution of the Rite of Constantinople in its stead.

Does that have anything to do with Melkite vs Antiochian Orthodox?

Not particularly: the suppression dates from half a millienium before the Melkite schism.

Quote
I am trying to understand what distinctively Arabic customs were suppressed in favor of Greek ones by the Antiochian Orthodox while the Melkites were unphased by said customs. So between 1724 and 1898, what customs were suppressed by the Greek bishops in Antioch, which were not suppressed by the Melkites?

I am asking these basic questions because I do not want to presume anything and I want to make sure I understand what exactly the question being asked is.

You really don't need to imagine: you can look at what is going on in Palestine today, were the Phanariot system still is going strong.

The problem of course, going back to the suppression of the Rite of Antioch by "Patriarch" Balsamon, was not Greek bishops in Antioch, but Greek bishops running Antioch from Constantinople: Balsamon, as far as I know, never set foot in his "patriarchate."  Although the Arab Orthodox predate the daughter Churches of Constantinople, unlike them, we still do not have standardized texts, and the ones the Melkites produce are much better.  The Arab Orthodox were the first to print in Arabic, the Metropolitan St. Antim (himself Georgian) of Bucharest first producing the Arabic press that was given to Antioch.  Soon the Arab Orthodox monestaries began producing the first publications in the Middle East. With the suppression of the Arab patriarchate, and the following suppression of Arab bishops, and the following suppression of Arab monastics (to ensure Greek monopoly of the episcopate: the same system is still in place in Jerusalem), the Melkites and Maronites took over the Arab press and the cultivation and modernization of the Arabic language (the Muslims followed the Christians in this).  Modern Arabic could have had a more promounced Orthodox stamp to it: as it was the Orthodox only began to catch up to the Vatican's Arabs and even the Protestant converts only when Russia began to pump in aid.  Even so, Sati' al-Husri, himself a Muslim, a founding Father of Arab Nationalism (which he imposed as serving as Minister of Education in several Arab states) stated that the Arab Patriarchate of Antioch was the first triumph of Arab Nationalism.

On the de-Arabization and Hellenization (NOT Romanization) of the Patriachates of Jerusalem and Antioch, see St. Raphael's (attrib.) "An Historical Glance of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulcher" (a work possession of which was punished by excommunication by the Greek bishops.  Truth hurts as it disinfects).
http://www.frmichel.najim.net/brotherenglish.pdf
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 01:52:39 AM »

Is language what Rowan is getting at anyway? Or customs of liturgy, spirituality, etc?

Did you miss my response?

Just like the title says. Our own Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch has been deeply influenced by Greek Orthodox traditions. The Melkites (as far as I've read) were not affected in the same way by the Melkite-Antiochian Orthodox schism, and probably had a better chance of maintaining Arab Orthodox spiritual traditions. Can looking at Arab tradition through Melkite eyes be a way for Antiochian Orthodox to have access to their own, oftentimes forgotten, faithful practices?

Could you elaborate on what "Arab traditions" are as opposed to "Greek traditions"?

Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it? There is no distinction between these in our Church. The Arab Orthodox under the Greek Patriarch of Antioch practice in Byzantine forms inherited from the EP. Given this event in history, I’m just curious about the forms that grew organically in the Arab Orthodox community before the installation of the Greek hierarchy into the Antiochian Patriarchate, and wondering if looking at a Patriarchate that has historically been under the control of Arab Christians (such as the Melkites) can shed some light on this. The lives of Arabic saints? Theology expressed in the Arabic? Primary Arab sources available? Things like that.

A certain ‘ethos’ is what I’m trying to capture mostly. It’s very apparent when reading even the prayers of the Ethiopians, the Copts, the Armenians, the Indians, and others that there is often a distinctive spirit about them. In our Church, the faith is enriched mostly by Greek and Russian thought, which is well and good. I wanted to know how the Arabic “ethos” contributes to the faith, but then I realized I should probably find out what this is first!

(I realize the irony of using the Greek concept of “ethos” to ask about non-Greek Christianity, but for a lack of a better way…)

So, in other words, what ialmisry said.

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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 08:56:13 AM »

Arabic...Arabic? If one had said Amaraic I might buy that. Arabic is just a vernacular dominant foreign language just as Greek used to be.
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 10:52:06 AM »

Arabic...Arabic? If one had said Amaraic I might buy that. Arabic is just a vernacular dominant foreign language just as Greek used to be.

I think (I hope) you mean Aramaic (and not Amharic: nothing wrong with it, just several hundred miles off).  Actually the reverse is true in much of Greater Syria: the Arabs had already come (they appear in the OT from time to time, and Assyrian inscriptions attest to their presence: at one point, the capital of the Neo-Babylonian empire was moved to near Medinah in present day Saudi Arabia), and were powerful enough to set up a string of kingdoms in the Roman borderlands, from Petra (intermarried with the Herodians, also of Arab background) to Bosra (where Origen took part in the Councils of Arabia of 246 and 247, and the first (crypto-)Christian emperor, Philip the Arab, was born. Its bishop was at Nicea I.  Later Muslims claimed Muhammad met the monk Bahira there)  to Damascus (the earliest Arabic inscription, around the time of Nicea I, is 100 miles SE, and it might explain why St. Paul went from there to Arabia), to Tadmur/Palmyra (from whence Queen Zenobia threatened the Empire) to Edessa (where Agbar V of image fame hailed from), to nearby Harran (a bilingual Greek-Arab inscription from Justianian's time survives), down to Hatra (where the ruler has an inscription claiming that he was "King of All the Arabs") to Hirah on the Euphrates in Southern Iraq.  These kingdoms all date from around the 1st cent. B.C. to the rise of Islam.  They all used Aramaic as their official languages and in their inscriptions, but were Arabs (the names of themselves and their deities give them away).  Progressively we get Arabic inscriptions around the Christianization of the Empire in Aramaic script, until we get a full fledged Arabic script in Hirah.

For all this see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9DNYAAAACAAJ&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
(no preview on that one)
http://books.google.com/books?id=W4H97SA6pMAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=mvQ8MKpVtqkC&pg=RA1-PA499&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=6oYCfWor5AIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=BEvEV9OVzacC&pg=PA3&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs

In Malula, one of the few towns still speaking Aramaic, they have the odd situation that they use Arabic in the services, but speak Aramaic at home and on the street.
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 12:06:21 PM »

I think that if you want to uncover more "native" forms of Christianity, you would do better to look at Syriac Christianity. Start with Sts. Ephrem, Isaac and Jacob of Serugh.

That aside, Antioch itself was founded as a center of Hellenistic culture/government, with most of its quarters originally settled by Athenians, Macedonians and Jews. There was one quarter for native peoples, if I remember correctly, and, over time, plenty of mixing with Aramaic-speaking locals (after all, that's what Hellenistic culture was all about!).

Anyway, Antioch retained its Hellenistic character during Roman times and was one of the largest cities in the Empire. For that reason, many Greco-Roman political and religious elites lived there, including Emperors, senators, and, of course, Christians like St. Ignatius and St. John Chrysostom (both of whose quality of Greek prose should indicate something about the Hellenistic reality of Christianity in Antioch...even the Jews there were Hellenized).

Because of its frequent earthquakes, Antioch's lower classes were wiped out several times, so the government would repopulate the city with retired Roman soldiers and their families.
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 01:53:39 PM »

I think that if you want to uncover more "native" forms of Christianity, you would do better to look at Syriac Christianity. Start with Sts. Ephrem, Isaac and Jacob of Serugh.

That aside, Antioch itself was founded as a center of Hellenistic culture/government, with most of its quarters originally settled by Athenians, Macedonians and Jews. There was one quarter for native peoples, if I remember correctly, and, over time, plenty of mixing with Aramaic-speaking locals (after all, that's what Hellenistic culture was all about!).

Anyway, Antioch retained its Hellenistic character during Roman times and was one of the largest cities in the Empire. For that reason, many Greco-Roman political and religious elites lived there, including Emperors, senators, and, of course, Christians like St. Ignatius and St. John Chrysostom (both of whose quality of Greek prose should indicate something about the Hellenistic reality of Christianity in Antioch...even the Jews there were Hellenized).

Because of its frequent earthquakes, Antioch's lower classes were wiped out several times, so the government would repopulate the city with retired Roman soldiers and their families.
Not quite sure what you mean by "more native."  The Arabs were around, dominated the urban centers of the hinterland, and were Christianized with the rest of the populace.  It also I think irrrelevent to the OP, as both the modern Antiochians and Melkites are Arabs (the Syriac Chalcedonians seem to have been gathered up into the Maronites).

And yes, the Greeks were always an element in the Patriarchate.
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 02:50:05 PM »

Arabic...Arabic? If one had said Amaraic I might buy that. Arabic is just a vernacular dominant foreign language just as Greek used to be.

I think (I hope) you mean Aramaic (and not Amharic: nothing wrong with it, just several hundred miles off).  Actually the reverse is true in much of Greater Syria: the Arabs had already come (they appear in the OT from time to time, and Assyrian inscriptions attest to their presence: at one point, the capital of the Neo-Babylonian empire was moved to near Medinah in present day Saudi Arabia), and were powerful enough to set up a string of kingdoms in the Roman borderlands, from Petra (intermarried with the Herodians, also of Arab background) to Bosra (where Origen took part in the Councils of Arabia of 246 and 247, and the first (crypto-)Christian emperor, Philip the Arab, was born. Its bishop was at Nicea I.  Later Muslims claimed Muhammad met the monk Bahira there)  to Damascus (the earliest Arabic inscription, around the time of Nicea I, is 100 miles SE, and it might explain why St. Paul went from there to Arabia), to Tadmur/Palmyra (from whence Queen Zenobia threatened the Empire) to Edessa (where Agbar V of image fame hailed from), to nearby Harran (a bilingual Greek-Arab inscription from Justianian's time survives), down to Hatra (where the ruler has an inscription claiming that he was "King of All the Arabs") to Hirah on the Euphrates in Southern Iraq.  These kingdoms all date from around the 1st cent. B.C. to the rise of Islam.  They all used Aramaic as their official languages and in their inscriptions, but were Arabs (the names of themselves and their deities give them away).  Progressively we get Arabic inscriptions around the Christianization of the Empire in Aramaic script, until we get a full fledged Arabic script in Hirah.

For all this see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9DNYAAAACAAJ&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
(no preview on that one)
http://books.google.com/books?id=W4H97SA6pMAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=mvQ8MKpVtqkC&pg=RA1-PA499&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=6oYCfWor5AIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=BEvEV9OVzacC&pg=PA3&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs

In Malula, one of the few towns still speaking Aramaic, they have the odd situation that they use Arabic in the services, but speak Aramaic at home and on the street.
Yeah, thanks for correction. I even spellchecked...the wrong language...
Nice lesson, but not exactly relevant per se seeing as I was going back pre seventh century. Basing such a broad assertion on one inscription seems fraught with potential error. "Greeks" of the middle eastern empire period were, well...more in number than real Greeks and Romans were...not Roman.
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 03:08:39 PM »

Arabic...Arabic? If one had said Amaraic I might buy that. Arabic is just a vernacular dominant foreign language just as Greek used to be.

I think (I hope) you mean Aramaic (and not Amharic: nothing wrong with it, just several hundred miles off).  Actually the reverse is true in much of Greater Syria: the Arabs had already come (they appear in the OT from time to time, and Assyrian inscriptions attest to their presence: at one point, the capital of the Neo-Babylonian empire was moved to near Medinah in present day Saudi Arabia), and were powerful enough to set up a string of kingdoms in the Roman borderlands, from Petra (intermarried with the Herodians, also of Arab background) to Bosra (where Origen took part in the Councils of Arabia of 246 and 247, and the first (crypto-)Christian emperor, Philip the Arab, was born. Its bishop was at Nicea I.  Later Muslims claimed Muhammad met the monk Bahira there)  to Damascus (the earliest Arabic inscription, around the time of Nicea I, is 100 miles SE, and it might explain why St. Paul went from there to Arabia), to Tadmur/Palmyra (from whence Queen Zenobia threatened the Empire) to Edessa (where Agbar V of image fame hailed from), to nearby Harran (a bilingual Greek-Arab inscription from Justianian's time survives), down to Hatra (where the ruler has an inscription claiming that he was "King of All the Arabs") to Hirah on the Euphrates in Southern Iraq.  These kingdoms all date from around the 1st cent. B.C. to the rise of Islam.  They all used Aramaic as their official languages and in their inscriptions, but were Arabs (the names of themselves and their deities give them away).  Progressively we get Arabic inscriptions around the Christianization of the Empire in Aramaic script, until we get a full fledged Arabic script in Hirah.

For all this see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9DNYAAAACAAJ&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
(no preview on that one)
http://books.google.com/books?id=W4H97SA6pMAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=mvQ8MKpVtqkC&pg=RA1-PA499&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=6oYCfWor5AIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=BEvEV9OVzacC&pg=PA3&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs

In Malula, one of the few towns still speaking Aramaic, they have the odd situation that they use Arabic in the services, but speak Aramaic at home and on the street.
Yeah, thanks for correction. I even spellchecked...the wrong language...
Nice lesson, but not exactly relevant per se seeing as I was going back pre seventh century.

So was I (and so does Irfan Shahid, the author of the linked works).  B.C. even.

Quote
Basing such a broad assertion on one inscription seems fraught with potential error.

Indeed.  What "one" inscription and "assertion" are you talking about?

Quote
"Greeks" of the middle eastern empire period were, well...more in number than real Greeks and Romans were...not Roman.
Are you talking about the Macedonians?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 05:09:14 PM »

Arabic...Arabic? If one had said Amaraic I might buy that. Arabic is just a vernacular dominant foreign language just as Greek used to be.

I think (I hope) you mean Aramaic (and not Amharic: nothing wrong with it, just several hundred miles off).  Actually the reverse is true in much of Greater Syria: the Arabs had already come (they appear in the OT from time to time, and Assyrian inscriptions attest to their presence: at one point, the capital of the Neo-Babylonian empire was moved to near Medinah in present day Saudi Arabia), and were powerful enough to set up a string of kingdoms in the Roman borderlands, from Petra (intermarried with the Herodians, also of Arab background) to Bosra (where Origen took part in the Councils of Arabia of 246 and 247, and the first (crypto-)Christian emperor, Philip the Arab, was born. Its bishop was at Nicea I.  Later Muslims claimed Muhammad met the monk Bahira there)  to Damascus (the earliest Arabic inscription, around the time of Nicea I, is 100 miles SE, and it might explain why St. Paul went from there to Arabia), to Tadmur/Palmyra (from whence Queen Zenobia threatened the Empire) to Edessa (where Agbar V of image fame hailed from), to nearby Harran (a bilingual Greek-Arab inscription from Justianian's time survives), down to Hatra (where the ruler has an inscription claiming that he was "King of All the Arabs") to Hirah on the Euphrates in Southern Iraq.  These kingdoms all date from around the 1st cent. B.C. to the rise of Islam.  They all used Aramaic as their official languages and in their inscriptions, but were Arabs (the names of themselves and their deities give them away).  Progressively we get Arabic inscriptions around the Christianization of the Empire in Aramaic script, until we get a full fledged Arabic script in Hirah.

For all this see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9DNYAAAACAAJ&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
(no preview on that one)
http://books.google.com/books?id=W4H97SA6pMAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=mvQ8MKpVtqkC&pg=RA1-PA499&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=6oYCfWor5AIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=BEvEV9OVzacC&pg=PA3&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs

In Malula, one of the few towns still speaking Aramaic, they have the odd situation that they use Arabic in the services, but speak Aramaic at home and on the street.
Yeah, thanks for correction. I even spellchecked...the wrong language...
Nice lesson, but not exactly relevant per se seeing as I was going back pre seventh century.

So was I (and so does Irfan Shahid, the author of the linked works).  B.C. even.
OK...so what?

Quote
Basing such a broad assertion on one inscription seems fraught with potential error.
Quote
Indeed.  What "one" inscription and "assertion" are you talking about?

Sigh...forget it.

Quote
"Greeks" of the middle eastern empire period were, well...more in number than real Greeks and Romans were...not Roman.
Are you talking about the Macedonians?
[/quote]

Nope, but they might be included as Greeks outright for the period.
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« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2009, 12:46:34 AM »

Arabic...Arabic? If one had said Amaraic I might buy that. Arabic is just a vernacular dominant foreign language just as Greek used to be.

I think (I hope) you mean Aramaic (and not Amharic: nothing wrong with it, just several hundred miles off).  Actually the reverse is true in much of Greater Syria: the Arabs had already come (they appear in the OT from time to time, and Assyrian inscriptions attest to their presence: at one point, the capital of the Neo-Babylonian empire was moved to near Medinah in present day Saudi Arabia), and were powerful enough to set up a string of kingdoms in the Roman borderlands, from Petra (intermarried with the Herodians, also of Arab background) to Bosra (where Origen took part in the Councils of Arabia of 246 and 247, and the first (crypto-)Christian emperor, Philip the Arab, was born. Its bishop was at Nicea I.  Later Muslims claimed Muhammad met the monk Bahira there)  to Damascus (the earliest Arabic inscription, around the time of Nicea I, is 100 miles SE, and it might explain why St. Paul went from there to Arabia), to Tadmur/Palmyra (from whence Queen Zenobia threatened the Empire) to Edessa (where Agbar V of image fame hailed from), to nearby Harran (a bilingual Greek-Arab inscription from Justianian's time survives), down to Hatra (where the ruler has an inscription claiming that he was "King of All the Arabs") to Hirah on the Euphrates in Southern Iraq.  These kingdoms all date from around the 1st cent. B.C. to the rise of Islam.  They all used Aramaic as their official languages and in their inscriptions, but were Arabs (the names of themselves and their deities give them away).  Progressively we get Arabic inscriptions around the Christianization of the Empire in Aramaic script, until we get a full fledged Arabic script in Hirah.

For all this see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9DNYAAAACAAJ&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
(no preview on that one)
http://books.google.com/books?id=W4H97SA6pMAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=mvQ8MKpVtqkC&pg=RA1-PA499&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=6oYCfWor5AIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs
http://books.google.com/books?id=BEvEV9OVzacC&pg=PA3&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs

In Malula, one of the few towns still speaking Aramaic, they have the odd situation that they use Arabic in the services, but speak Aramaic at home and on the street.
Yeah, thanks for correction. I even spellchecked...the wrong language...
Nice lesson, but not exactly relevant per se seeing as I was going back pre seventh century.

So was I (and so does Irfan Shahid, the author of the linked works).  B.C. even.
OK...so what?

So I don't know what contrast you are making by bringing up the seventh century.

Quote
Basing such a broad assertion on one inscription seems fraught with potential error.
Quote
Indeed.  What "one" inscription and "assertion" are you talking about?

Sigh...forget it.[/quote]

The pre-Islamic Arabic inscriptions number in the tens of thousands. An example would be the Safaitic inscriptions, done in a North Arabic dialect but in the Epigraphic South Arabic alphabet-musnad-which survives in the Ethiopian syllabary (showing the cultural conections over geography): 30,000 have been found in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Central Arabia, most being in inaccessible areas near by the al-Namara inscription.

As for the al-Namarah inscription (the one outside Damascus), it is no ordinary inscription, meshing with inscriptions from Morrocco to Iran, and from Ethiopia/Yemen to (imporant as the definitive work on the dynasty of  Imru'l-Qays, the subject of the inscription, was written in 1899, from literary soursces, before the discovery of these inscriptions):
Quote
This is the funerary monument of Imru'l Qais, son of ‘Amr, king of of the Arabs; and (?) his title of the honour was Master of Asad and Madhij.

And he subdued the Asadis, and they were overwhelmed together with their kings, and he put to the flight Madhij thereafter and came

driving them into the gates of Najran, the city of Shammar, and he subdued Ma‘add, and he dealt gently with the nobles

of the tribes, and appointed them viceroys, and they became phylarchs for the Romans. And no king has equalled in his achievements.

Thereafter he died in the year 223 on the 7th day of Kaslul. Oh the good fortune of those who were his friends!

Dr. Shahid opens his "Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fourth Century with it, putting it in its context (pp. 31-73)
http://books.google.com/books?id=mvQ8MKpVtqkC&pg=RA1-PA448&dq=Byzantium+and+the+Arabs+al-namara
for a picture:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/namarah.html

Some of its importance I would hope is self evident, but some highlights important for our purposes:
1. Imru'l-Qays son of 'Amr, King of the Arabs is know from the Arabic and Islamic sources, which state that he converted to Christianity.  The presence of his tomb in a Church would seem to confirm that.  It is also the only contemporary evidence we have of him.
2. Pahlevi inscriptions tell us his father 'Amr was linked to the Abgars of Edessa, the Vth who is immortalized in the story of the Image of Edessa, the VIIIth who converted to the heretical (Manicheasn) Bardaisan and befriended the heresiarch.  'Amr, Coptic papyri published in the 30s tell us, was the protector of Manicheism after Mani was crucified.  This places the dynasty, as the literary sources say, in the midst of the Chrisitanization of the fertile cresecent.
3. The language is Classical Arabic, showing that the Standard of the poets was in place at least 3 centuries before the Quran, and used in a Christian context.  It is only one of two that are in the Arabic adaptation of the Nabatean Alphabet (the other is dated to 88-150 in 'En 'Avadat Palestine, and consists of half in Aramaic, half in Arabic poetry in one of the Classical Arabic metres, another important cultural landmark).  This is not only important as the Arab philologists place the creation of the Arabic alphabet in Imru'l-Qays' hometown of al-Hirah on the Euphrates, but also it shows the shift of the alphabet from musnad to the present alphabet centuries before Islam, and in a Christian context (the source credit Christians with the alphabet's creation).
4. The inscriptions place Imru'l-Qays' origins in Iraq; his presence in Syria represents the switch of the Arab client kingdoms from paganism and Zoroastrianism to Christian and Rome.
5. It explicitely links the Arabs to Rome just after the Council of Nicea I.
6. Najran is a city in Yemen, whence the various tribes mentioned are said by the literary sources came from.  It became a center of Christianity, its martyrs not only being mention in the Quran, but also appearing in the Synaxarion (St. Aretas (al-Harith) and his companions.
7. The names of the tribes in the inscriptions may mean nothing to you, but they mean a lot to the Arab genealogists.  Dr. Shahid puts them in the context with the confederation of Azd[the Arabic lexigraphers state Asd is the more correct form]-Tanukh, which also produced the Queen Mawiyah/Maviah/Mania of whom for example Socrates tells us:
Quote
No sooner had the emperor departed from Antioch [376], than the Saracens, who had before been in alliance with the Romans, revolted from them, being led by Mavia their queen, whose husband was then dead. All the regions of the East therefore were at that time ravaged by the Saracens: but a certain divine Providence repressed their fury in the manner I am about to describe. A person named Moses, a Saracen by birth, who led a monastic life in the desert, became exceedingly eminent for his piety, faith, and miracles. Mavia the queen of the Saracens was therefore desirous that this person should be constituted bishop over her nation, and promised on the condition to terminate the war. The Roman generals considering that a peace founded on such terms would be extremely advantageous, gave immediate directions for its ratification. Moses was accordingly seized, and brought from the desert to Alexandria, in order that he might there be invested with the bishopric: but on his presentation for that purpose to Lucius, who at that time presided over the churches in that city [as the Arian usurper of Pope Peter II, St. Athanasius' designated successor], he refused to be ordained by him, protesting against it in these words: ‘I account myself indeed unworthy of the sacred office; but if the exigencies of the state require my bearing it, it shall not be by Lucius laying his hand on me, for it has been filled with blood.’ When Lucius told him that it was his duty to learn from him the principles of religion, and not to utter reproachful language, Moses replied, ‘Matters of faith are not now in question: but your infamous practices against the brethren sufficiently prove that your doctrines are not Christian. For a Christian is “no striker, reviles not, does not fight”; for “it becomes not a servant of the Lord to fight.”  But your deeds cry out against you by those who have been sent into exile, who have been exposed to the wild beasts, and who had been delivered up to the flames. Those things which our own eyes have beheld are far more convincing than what we receive from the report of another.’ As Moses expressed these and other similar sentiments his friends took him to the mountains, that he might receive ordination from those bishops who lived in exile [i.e. the Orthodox bishops] there. Moses having thus been consecrated, the Saracen war was terminated; and so scrupulously did Mavia observe the peace thus entered into with the Romans that she gave her daughter in marriage to Victor the commander-in-chief of the Roman army. Such were the transactions in relation to the Saracens....After the Emperor Valens had thus lost his life, in a manner which has never been satisfactorily ascertained, the barbarians again approached the very walls of Constantinople, and laid waste the suburbs on every side of it. Whereat the people becoming indignant armed themselves with whatever weapons they could severally lay hands on, and sallied forth of their own accord against the enemy. The empress Dominica caused the same pay to be distributed out of the imperial treasury to such as volunteered to go out on this service, as was usually allowed to soldiers. A few Saracens also assisted the citizens, being confederates, who had been sent by Mavia their queen: the latter we have already mentioned.  In this way the people having fought at this time, the barbarians retired to a great distance from the city.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.ii.vii.xxxvi.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.ii.viii.ii.html

which Sozomen adds:
Quote
About this period the king of the Saracens died, and the peace which had previously existed between that nation and the Romans was dissolved. Mania [i.e. Mavia], the widow of the late monarch, after attaining to the government of her race, led her troops into Phœnicia and Palestine, as far as the regions of Egypt lying to the left of those who sail towards the source of the Nile, and which are generally denominated Arabia. This war was by no means a contemptible one, although conducted by a woman. The Romans, it is said, considered it so arduous and so perilous, that the general of the Phœnician troops applied for assistance to the general of the entire cavalry and infantry of the East. This latter ridiculed the summons, and undertook to give battle alone. He accordingly attacked Mania, who commanded her own troops in person; and he was rescued with difficulty by the general of the troops of Palestine and Phœnicia. Perceiving the extremity of the danger, this general deemed it unnecessary to obey the orders he had received to keep aloof from the combat; he therefore rushed upon the barbarians, and furnished his superior an opportunity for safe retreat, while he himself yielded ground and shot at those who fled, and beat off with his arrows the enemies who were pressing upon him. This occurrence is still held in remembrance among the people of the country, and is celebrated in songs by the Saracens.

As the war was still pursued with vigor, the Romans found it necessary to send an embassy to Mania to solicit peace. It is said that she refused to comply with the request of the embassy, unless consent were given for the ordination of a certain man named Moses, who practiced philosophy in a neighboring desert, as bishop over her subjects. This Moses was a man of virtuous life, and noted for performing the divine and miraculous signs. On these conditions being announced to the emperor, the chiefs of the army were commanded to seize Moses, and conduct him to Lucius. The monk exclaimed, in the presence of the rulers and the assembled people, “I am not worthy of the honor of bearing the name and dignity of chief priest; but if, notwithstanding my unworthiness God destines me to this office, I take Him to witness who created the heavens and the earth, that I will not be ordained by the imposition of the hands of Lucius, which are defiled with the blood of holy men.” Lucius immediately rejoined, “If you are unacquainted with the nature of my creed, you do wrong in judging me before you are in possession of all the circumstances of the case. If you have been prejudiced by the calumnies that have been circulated against me, at least allow me to declare to you what are my sentiments; and do you be the judge of them.” “Your creed is already well known to me,” replied Moses; “and its nature is testified by bishops, presbyters, and deacons, who are suffering grievously in exile, and the mines. It is clear that your sentiments are opposed to the faith of Christ, and to all orthodox doctrines concerning the Godhead.”  Having again protested, upon oath, that he would not receive ordination from them, he went to the Saracens. He reconciled them to the Romans, and converted many to Christianity, and passed his life among them as a priest, although he found few who shared in his belief.

This is the tribe which took its origin and had its name from Ishmael, the son of Abraham; and the ancients called them Ishmaelites after their progenitor. As their mother Hagar was a slave, they afterwards, to conceal the opprobrium of their origin, assumed the name of Saracens, as if they were descended from Sara, the wife of Abraham. Such being their origin, they practice circumcision like the Jews, refrain from the use of pork, and observe many other Jewish rites and customs. If, indeed, they deviate in any respect from the observances of that nation, it must be ascribed to the lapse of time, and to their intercourse with the neighboring nations. Moses, who lived many centuries after Abraham, only legislated for those whom he led out of Egypt. The inhabitants of the neighboring countries, being strongly addicted to superstition, probably soon corrupted the laws imposed upon them by their forefather Ishmael. The ancient Hebrews had their community life under this law only, using therefore unwritten customs, before the Mosaic legislation. These people certainly served the same gods as the neighboring nations, honoring and naming them similarly, so that by this likeness with their forefathers in religion, there is evidenced their departure from the laws of their forefathers. As is usual, in the lapse of time, their ancient customs fell into oblivion, and other practices gradually got the precedence among them. Some of their tribe afterwards happening to come in contact with the Jews, gathered from them the facts of their true origin, returned to their kinsmen, and inclined to the Hebrew customs and laws. From that time on, until now, many of them regulate their lives according to the Jewish precepts. Some of the Saracens were converted to Christianity not long before the present reign. They shared in the faith of Christ by intercourse with the priests and monks who dwelt near them, and practiced philosophy in the neighboring deserts, and who were distinguished by the excellence of their life, and by their miraculous works. It is said that a whole tribe, and Zocomus, their chief, were converted to Christianity and baptized about this period, under the following circumstances: Zocomus was childless, and went to a certain monk of great celebrity to complain to him of this calamity; for among the Saracens, and I believe other barbarian nations, it was accounted of great importance to have children. The monk desired Zocomus to be of good cheer, engaged in prayer on his behalf, and sent him away with the promise that if he would believe in Christ, he would have a son. When this promise was confirmed by God, and when a son was born to him, Zocomus was initiated, and all his subjects with him. From that period this tribe was peculiarly fortunate, and became strong in point of number, and formidable to the Persians as well as to the other Saracens. Such are the details that I have been enabled to collect concerning the conversion of the Saracens and their first bishop....Such was the fate of Valens. The barbarians, flushed with victory, overran Thrace, and advanced to the gates of Constantinople. In this emergency, a few of the confederate Saracens sent by Mavia, together with many of the populace, were of great service. It is reported that Dominica, wife of Valens, furnished money out of the public treasury, and some of the people, after hastily arming themselves, attacked the barbarians, and drove them from the city.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.iii.xi.xxxviii.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.iii.xii.i.html

Btw, the name Mawiyah (the Arabic form of Maviyah) crops up repeatedly among the Arabs as a Christian and a royal name, from Yemen to Iraq.  Pope St. Gregory used the example of St. Moses to induce St. Boniface to join his nephew to evangelize the Germans.

This confederations that Imru'l-Qays ruled later (previously having sired the Arab (crypto-)Christian Roman Emperor Philip the Arab, from Bosra, near when the inscription is found) produced the Emperor Nikephoros (who in turn sired St. Ignatius, the EP over whom Constantinople IV was convened).  On a sadder note, their defection at Yarmuk cost the Empire the battle.

"Greeks" of the middle eastern empire period were, well...more in number than real Greeks and Romans were...not Roman.
Are you talking about the Macedonians?

Nope, but they might be included as Greeks outright for the period.
Who are the Greeks inright?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2009, 02:38:07 AM »

Guess you missed the "forget it", huh.

If your going to persist with your usual pedantics, relate...prove the Church of Antioch used ARABIC.
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2009, 01:42:57 PM »

Guess you missed the "forget it", huh.

No, just missed what you meant by this:

I was going back pre seventh century. Basing such a broad assertion on one inscription seems fraught with potential error.

Quote
If your going to persist with your usual pedantics, relate...prove the Church of Antioch used ARABIC.

What do you mean by 1) Church of Antioch, 2) used Arabic.

For 1, I'm assuming you mean the Patriarchate, and not the city itself, because Antioch was even more a Greek enclave than Alexandria. That has less import, however, as Price and Gaddis show in their introduction to the Acts of Chalcedon, Antioch did not dominate its patriarchate (part of the reason why it lost large parts of it).  I'll focus on Syria.

For 2, I'm going to assume you mean Church Fathers in Arabic (theology, histories, etc), the Bible in Arabic, and use as a Liturgical language, and not its use as a vernacular of the Faithful.  The later is shown by thousands of inscriptions in the area, including those on churches.

Just a few things, we are getting ready to go camping:

As for "use Arabic," I wouldn't expect much in the way of that.  Arabic, even Muslim Arabic of the Quran, shows a dominance of Greek and Syriac, much more developed civilizations at a time when we cannot speak of a seperate Arab civilazation.  St. Cyprian, for instance, writes a long dogmatic letter to the Arabians, it survives in Greek, and if it were not in that I would expect it to be in Syriac.  Arabic even after the rise of Islam preferred oral tradition (not necessarily the mark of lack of civilization: the Zoroastrians called the written word "dead," and instead insisted on memorization.  Only centuries of decline induced them to write down their literature, like the Jews and writting down the Talmud), something the Muslims continue: when the Egyptian King produced the "critical edition" of the Quran in the 1920's, they compared reciters, not manuscripts).

To give us some dates, the caliphs attacked Greater Syria and took Damascus in 634, the battle of Yarmuk took place in 636 and sealed Syria's fate, Antioch following in 637, St. Patriarch Sophronius surrendered Jerusalem by treaty in person to the caliph 'Umar in 638.

We have fragments of an 8th century Psalter from Syria, in which has parrallel texts, the Septuagint in Greek majuscules, and the Arabic in Greek letters.  You can see the text here, with parrallel Arabic script:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ri1ELsg2I_MC&pg=PA68&dq=A+Psalm+fragment+in+Greek+transcription
although we have a fair amount of bilingual Arabic-Greek material, this is the only example I know of Arabic in Greek script. This matches the practice of writing Arabic in Syriac script, dating from the 8th century.  For an interesting discussion of this (and interesting links)
http://bulbulovo.blogspot.com/2008/05/karshuni.html

This would seem the reaction of the Caliphate adopting Arabic as its official language, and putting distinct Muslim material in it.  Suprise to some, Greek and Pahlavi continued to be used after the conquest until half a century later, and we don't have a mention of Muhammad or the Quran during the period: the caliphs had used Roman coins, which began to be minted with Christ's image, and Coptic scribes, who started writing Trinitarian formulas.  Around the same time is when we get the first mention of Muhammad in Arabic sources, and the first evidence of the Quran.  Arabic grammar became associated with the exposition of the Quran, but we have plenty in Arabic written by non-Muslims.  There is quite a bit of material, so much that Blau (a big name in Arabic studies) produced "A Grammar of Christian Arabic based mainly on South-Palestinian Texts from the First Millennium"  Most of the texts are translations, mostly slavish (something that still afflicts our texts).  We do have what is called an Arabic Summa Theologica, copied in 877-8 (nearly a millenium before 1727)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ri1ELsg2I_MC&pg=PA72&dq=Summa+Theologica+Griffith
http://books.google.com/books?id=bOSIAAAAMAAJ&q=Summa+Theologica+Griffith&dq=Summa+Theologica+Griffith
http://books.google.com/books?id=te2Jg-RTi4YC&pg=PA16&dq=Summa+Theologica+Griffith

since the text refers to Palestine as "the West," it was written by someone in Jordan or Arabia who adopted the Arabic standard koine of the Palestinian Monestaries (ie. not that codified by the Quran commentators), although it adopts Muslim terminology in attacking it. It also shows original Arabic theological discourse.

On a collection of essays on the Arabization of ALL the Churches of the Middle East after the conquest, see "Redefining Christian Identity:Christian cultural strategies since the rise of Islam' " By Jan J. Ginkel, Hendrika Lena Murre-van den Berg, Theo Maarten van Linthttp://books.google.com/books?id=u1nM57HD6joC&source=gbs_navlinks_s

The relevence to our question here, to pre-conquest Arabic: as the above symposium discusses the well known facts that Syriac and Coptic (and for that matter the Armenian) Orthodox and the Nestorian Assyrians did compose in Arabic, but they continued their own vernacular (Syriac and Assyrian are still spoken, and Coptic only died out in the 18th century) and use their own liturgical language.  Neither is true of the Arab Christians, if it was ever true, a mere 175 after the Caliphate conquered Syria and Antioch (by way of comparison, Christianity came to Rome and North Africa by 49, but Latin wouldn't be used in the Church there until Pope Victor in 189, and the first Latin father, Tertullian, didn't convert until 198 and didn't write in Latin until later (his first works were in Greek), and then in Africa (whence Victor came)).  That would of course make sense in view of the dynamics: the Orthodox Greeks fled, the Orthodox Syriacs already gravitated to the Church of St. Severus or had been drawn to the Nestorians, the remaining Syriac speakers ended up as Monothelite Maronites, or were as Mardaites were taken by treaty into the Empire (in contrast, Arab Christian tribes, such as Iyad, who fled into the empire were forced back into the caliphate, per the treaty demands of the caliphs with the Emperor).  The only Orthodox Chalcedonian faithful left in the Patriarchate of Antioch (and nearly so in Jerusalem) were the Arabs.  And since we have plenty of documentation of Arab Christians before the conquest in Greater Syria, it stands to reason why Antioch became Arabic speaking so fast is that much of its Faithful were Arabophone to begin with (compare the Orthodox Karamanlis who speak Turkish but write it in Greek letters: the heavy element of Arabic in their language tells me that they are Christianized Turks rather than Turkified Greeks. Also the proliferation of Armenian ecclesiastical writing after the creation of the Armenian alphabet: though using Greek and Syriac as their literary medium prior, the Armenians were Armenian Armenian speakers).

These Arabs produced their first Arabic Father (I don't count St. John of Damascus, born Sarjiyuus ManSuur as he wrote in Greek), St. John's disciple Theodore (or Thiyuudhuuruus) Abu Qurrah: born c. 750 in Edessa, he served as Chalcedonian bishop of Harran (785-829), wrote several treatises in Arabic, some of which were translated in Greek.  Deposed by Patriarch Theodoret of Antioch, he was restored by the succeeding Patriarch Job of Antioch (799-, who translated Aristotle into Arabic.  The Syriac chroniclers note that Theodore "debated the Sarcens, for he spoke and "got into a converstation with [the caliph] Ma'mun.  There was a great debate between them on the Faith of the Christians."  Deposed, he went to Jerusalem, where he composed treatises in Arabic, translated into Greek for the Armenians.  The Miaphysite writers accuse him of travelling from Alexandria to Armenia, spreading the teaching of St. Maximus the Confessor. His writings show a grasp of Chalcedonian (i.e. not Miaphysite Syriac) theology.
http://books.google.com/books?id=LT5OUMOIBB0C&printsec=frontcover&vq=Theodoret&source=gbs_navlinks_s

This wasn't confined to Syria: A tri-lingual psalter, pre 1153, produced in Sicily has Latin, Greek and Arabic in parrallel rows.  The Arabic contains the Melkite (in the pre 1700 sense of the word text) and is also interesting in that the Pslams are numbered in the Arabic numberals, i.e. the place marked system we (Arabs and Europeans) use today (such numerals were usually confined to scientific works):
http://www.qantara-med.org/qantara4/public/show_document.php?do_id=1132&lang=en
It is to be remembered that George of Antioch, his native city, was the first admiral who took Roger's forces to the walls of Constantinople itself, founded the beautiful Orthodox Churches in Sicily.

Of course, much of the Armaic speakers found their way into the Orthodox Church of Antioch (and Jerusalem) Matthew Black published "A Christian Palestinian Syriac Horologion" of 1187/8, which is in Syriac with phrases like the Kyrie (i.e. ones that are often untranslated in liturgies, e.g. Latin, Slavonic, Coptic and Syriac) in Arabic, with parts in Arabic, e.g. a large part in Arabic which is introduced in Syriac "the following are the correct troparia according to the Arabs and Greeks,[then switching to Arabic in Syriac letters, Garshuni] 'Behold the Bridegroom comes at midnight, and blessed is the servant..."  There are vestiges of Monotheletism in the hymns, which have been adapted to Orthodoxy, and althought the services are Melkite, they show differences from the corresponding Greek services.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kbA4AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0
the existence of Cypriot Maronite Arabic, an archaic dialect vestige from the time of the Crusades, also points to the Arabization of the Maronites which contrasts to the Arabophone Melkites.

That will have to do for now.
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2009, 06:36:26 AM »

For a related video:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23601.msg360508/topicseen.html#msg360508
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2009, 02:45:46 PM »

Just came across this on google books: The Patriarchate of Jerusalem By Theodore Edward Dowling.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0kZpAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false
 In it it touches about Arab Patriarchs of Jerusalem (which had been attached to Antioch) before the rise of Islam.
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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2010, 10:47:24 AM »

Just came across this on google books: The Patriarchate of Jerusalem By Theodore Edward Dowling.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0kZpAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false
 In it it touches about Arab Patriarchs of Jerusalem (which had been attached to Antioch) before the rise of Islam.
For what the Arab Orthodox have been doing then and since:
http://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2011, 07:32:02 PM »

Just came across something that looks interesting on the Arab Orthodox before Islam:
The barbarian plain: Saint Sergius between Rome and Iran By Elizabeth Key Fowden
http://books.google.com/books?id=UC5v4mgERxwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Barbarian+Plain&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=cykeTpG3I-iesQLp99mpCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Arabs&f=false

St. Sergius was the patron saint of the Bedouin, his shrine at Rusafa rivaling Mecca.
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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2011, 08:21:27 AM »

Just came across something that looks interesting on the Arab Orthodox before Islam:
The barbarian plain: Saint Sergius between Rome and Iran By Elizabeth Key Fowden
http://books.google.com/books?id=UC5v4mgERxwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Barbarian+Plain&hl=en&src=bmrr&ei=cykeTpG3I-iesQLp99mpCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Arabs&f=false

St. Sergius was the patron saint of the Bedouin, his shrine at Rusafa rivaling Mecca.

You mentioned Aramaic & Syriac influence on the Quran. If its of interest, you may want to take a look at this book:

The Syro-Aramaic reading of the Koran: a contribution to the decoding of the Languange of the Quran 
By Christoph Luxenberg

http://books.google.com/books?id=227GhaeKYl4C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2011, 10:22:23 AM »

George, Bishop of the Arabs, was consecrated at the same time as St Jacob Baradeus. Some of the Arab kingdoms were Christian, and were within the orbit of the Syrian Patriarchate.
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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2011, 11:34:14 AM »

When speaking of 'Arabs,' I think it is important to stress that there is a world of difference between a 'true' Gulf Arab and a Levantine Arabic speaker, the latter of which makes up the majority of people under the Patriarchate of Antioch.  In their situation, the Arabic language and certain social restrictions were imposed on them from the Moslem occupiers.

The 'Grecification' of the Patriarchate ('hellenization' implies a return to Classical Greek culture, thus paganize) in the 18th century may not have been as dramatic as one would imagine given that the Church of Antioch had its roots in the 'Imperial' traditions rather than the Eastern churches that fell away at Fourth Council.  Years ago, I saw a copy of the Typicon of St. Savas from the ~15th century, written in Arabic.  The big 'surprise' was the hymnody it referenced was in Aramaic.  I would assume that the big change with the 18th century was not as much liturgical structure as it was the loss of old hymns in Aramaic.

It is that language, Aramaic, which was native to the region and suppressed by the Moslems in favor of Arabic, but this went on long before the schism.  Even today, the Melkite Church is called the 'Melkite Greek Catholic Church,' which is a double reference to the Greco-Roman Imperial allegiance of the Church of Antioch.

I would also like to add that Greek elements have been absorbed into all the regional churches without any distinct program, and visa versa.  For example, the Coptic bishops now wear Greek-style miters, and their earlier headgear looks to have been passed down to their priests.  Coptic priests have also, at least in the US, have taken to wearing Greek pectoral crosses rather than their traditional ones. 

The Melkites have adopted a great deal of 'Latinizations' that they have struggled to eliminate since Vatican II.

So, in conclusion I would say that 'going back' to some 'unsullied' time is simply impossible.  Liturgics and small-t traditions have been in a constant state of flux.  What we ought to be more concerned about is understanding the meanings of the things we do now in reference to our commission to preach the Gospel to the whole world and heal those seeking God's mercy.
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« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2012, 12:26:55 PM »

Just came across something that makes a good argument that the Greek Arabic (in Greek letters) Psalter from Damascus, mentioned above, dates from before the sixth century.
Literacy in an Oral environment, by M.C.A. MacDonald
http://books.google.com/books?id=hdNf33JBS8sC&pg=PA103&dq=%22a+period+before+Arabic+was+habitually+written+in+Syria%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L_EWT_vkL8OwgwfmhdnWAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22a%20period%20before%20Arabic%20was%20habitually%20written%20in%20Syria%22&f=false
Writing and ancient Near Eastern society: papers in honour of Alan R. Millard
By Piotr Bienkowski, Christopher Mee, Elizabeth Slater
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« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2012, 03:37:19 PM »

ok I'm going to cite my arab friend who was melkite but joined the Antiochian Orthodox church about a year ago.  A few things he does miss about the Melkites;

1) Translation in English is much more up to the times and not so much like hapgood as the Antiochians use
2) The simplified chant the antiochians use is horrendous compared to the chant the Melkites use (in English)
Other than the differences are that many in his community are converts and not very respecting towards the arab parishoners and their customs.  In the Melkites there was more of a sense of just going to church and doing it for God and not bickering about small customs and so forth.
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« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2012, 04:01:28 PM »

(Sorry to interject into this very informative discussion......)

I've had a question for some time about something I saw at several Melkite churches and I've been wondering if it is also practiced in Orthodox churches.  The practice was, when the Gospel was being read,  many people (and alot of children) went up and physically put their hands on the Bible as the priest was reading from it.  Those that could not get close physically touched the person who had had their hands on the Bible, and so on.  Sort of a human chain was formed around the Bible as it was being read. 

 I've never seen this in a Byzantine Catholic church or a Ukraininan Catholic church, and was wondering if this was just a Melkite practice or something that is also seen in some Orthodox churches. 

And, another practice had to do with an elderly Melkite grandma who, as the priest went by holding up the chalice, went out into the aisle so that the priest could touch her grandchild's head with the chalice.   Very sweet!
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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2012, 04:07:42 PM »

(Sorry to interject into this very informative discussion......)

I've had a question for some time about something I saw at several Melkite churches and I've been wondering if it is also practiced in Orthodox churches.  The practice was, when the Gospel was being read,  many people (and alot of children) went up and physically put their hands on the Bible as the priest was reading from it.  Those that could not get close physically touched the person who had had their hands on the Bible, and so on.  Sort of a human chain was formed around the Bible as it was being read. 

 I've never seen this in a Byzantine Catholic church or a Ukraininan Catholic church, and was wondering if this was just a Melkite practice or something that is also seen in some Orthodox churches. 

Quite popular here but not on regular services, only on processions or services of intercession.

Quote
And, another practice had to do with an elderly Melkite grandma who, as the priest went by holding up the chalice, went out into the aisle so that the priest could touch her grandchild's head with the chalice.   Very sweet!

Not unheard of but less popular. I've seen it in two parishes.
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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2012, 04:10:07 PM »

(Sorry to interject into this very informative discussion......)

I've had a question for some time about something I saw at several Melkite churches and I've been wondering if it is also practiced in Orthodox churches.  The practice was, when the Gospel was being read,  many people (and alot of children) went up and physically put their hands on the Bible as the priest was reading from it.  Those that could not get close physically touched the person who had had their hands on the Bible, and so on.  Sort of a human chain was formed around the Bible as it was being read. 

 I've never seen this in a Byzantine Catholic church or a Ukraininan Catholic church, and was wondering if this was just a Melkite practice or something that is also seen in some Orthodox churches. 

In my old Ruthenian parish, the children of the parish would all go up and hold the Gospel book while the priest or deacon (when we had one) read from it.
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2012, 04:21:35 PM »

Thanks!  That is good to know.... I thought it was quite a lovely practice.  angel
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