OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 21, 2014, 02:24:12 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Washing of Original Sin in Baptism  (Read 1491 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
cristian84
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 9


« on: July 10, 2009, 05:25:09 PM »

If Orthodox Christians can profess that original sin is washed away at baptism (for example in the case of an infant); in what since is that to be taken. Because 1) if an actual or personal sin is not transmitted down (hereditary sin of Adam), and we are not through baptism restored to life in the since that Adam was before the fall (because we still have a propensity to sin and we still die). Then what are we washed off, what does it mean for an Orthodox Christian to say that baptism cleanses you of Original Sin? I would like detailed answers if at all possible. Thanks!
Logged
Hopeful Faithful
How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: In transition to the Russian old Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Strong Russian Old Pomorsky (Stranniki)
Posts: 199


An Old Faith Flag


WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2009, 06:48:31 PM »

It might be more accurate to say that authentic Christian baptism "washes away all sin" but that does not do anything for any sin committed afterward. It is possible to stop sinning. Scripture mentions those that are unsinned, that have not sinned. It is said that there is only one unforgivable sin, perhaps that is what it all hinges on. It mgiht be wise to believe it impossible to have any detailed answers here.

Forgive, brother John
Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.
SDMPNS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: raised in Metropolia which became the OCA now I belong to a GOA parish..
Posts: 540


Praise God for the beauty of Creation


« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2009, 07:23:40 PM »

Washes away original sin? Are you sure that is an Orthodox view of baptism?
Logged
IPC
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: RZC
Posts: 308


« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2009, 10:31:43 PM »

Dear cristian84If,

There is no doctrine of original sin in the Orthodox Church this is a Roman Catholic erred teaching.

What the Orthodox Church teaches is Ancestral sin, which is the inclination to sin. This is a sort of spiritual ailment transmitted down from our forefathers Adam and Eve to us.

Baptism washes away all sins, this is true, not a single sin remains.

Logged

THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 10:59:33 PM »

Not to be disagreeable, but in the book "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" by Protopresbyter Michael Pomozansky, One clearly finds on p.162 the essence of Orthodox teaching on "original sin".
Quote:
By original sin is meant the sin of Adam, which was transmitted to his decendants and weighs upon them. The doctrine of original sin has great significance in the Christian worldview, because upon it rests a whole series of other dogmas.
The word of God teaches us that through Adam "all have sinned": By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. (Rom. 5:12)For who will be clean of defilement? No one, if he have lived even a single day on this earth (Job 14:4-5, Septuagint) . For behold I was conceived in iniquities and in sin did my mother bear me. (Ps. 50:5)
The common faith of the ancient Christian Church in the existence of original sin may be seen in the Church's ancient custom of baptizing infants. The local council of Carthage in 252, composed of 66 bishopsunder the presidency of St. Cyprian, decreed the following against heretics - continued

footnote: the expression "original sin" has become traditional in Latin theology since the time of Blessed Augustine. Contemporary Orthodox writers generally prefer the expression "ancestral sin" which is common among the Greek Fathers...."
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 11:07:51 PM »

The local council of Carthage in 252, composed of 66 bishops under the presidency of St. Cyprian, decreed the following against heretics - continued - "Not to forbid (the Baptism) of an infant who, scarcely born, has sinned in nothing apart from that which proceeds from the flesh of Adam. He has recieved the contagion of the ancient death through his very birth, and he comes, therefore, the more easily to the remission of sins in that it is not his own but the sins of another that are remitted."




[/quote]
footnote: the expression "original sin" has become traditional in Latin theology since the time of Blessed Augustine. Contemporary Orthodox writers generally prefer the expression "ancestral sin" which is common among the Greek Fathers...."
[/quote]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 11:09:18 PM by simplygermain » Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,212


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009, 11:11:53 PM »

Not to be disagreeable, but in the book "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" by Protopresbyter Michael Pomozansky, One clearly finds on p.162 the essence of Orthodox teaching on "original sin".
Yes, I believe it's commonly understood that the Russian tradition of dogmatic theology Fr. Michael Pomozansky represents comes from a time when Russian theology was heavily influenced by Latin modes of thought.
Logged
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009, 11:19:55 PM »

Huh Huh

I think he is clear in the footnotes, the difference between the Latin term and Acestral Sin is in actual committing of sin vs. the "ancient death" or death itself due to sin (sort of a side-effect of the disease).
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 11:21:45 PM »

I'm interested in your "Mode of thought" PTA. Please expound...
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,212


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 11:22:29 PM »

Huh Huh

I think he is clear in the footnotes, the difference between the Latin term and Acestral Sin is in actual committing of sin vs. the "ancient death" or death itself due to sin (sort of a side-effect of the disease).
Okay, maybe I found your misuse (unintentional, no doubt Wink) of quote tags somewhat confusing. Embarrassed
Logged
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 11:25:06 PM »

Is this your sense of humor or did I miss something?  Cheesy...In what way is Pomozansky's Mode of thought RC?
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,212


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2009, 11:38:11 PM »

Is this your sense of humor or did I miss something?  Cheesy...In what way is Pomozansky's Mode of thought RC?
What I offered is more of a general statement of the 19th Century Russian theological tradition Fr. Pomozansky represents.  I'm assuming--I know this is often a dangerous thing to do--that many of us are familiar with how 19th Century Russian theology was heavily influenced by Latin schools of thought.  It's known as the "Western Captivity".  What I often see as representative of this is the perceived need to articulate a dogmatic statement on almost every theological point of contention within the Church, often by citing some manufactured "patristic consensus".
Logged
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2009, 11:49:14 PM »

Do you find that He was "guilty" of this? and in this understanding of Baptism and Original Sin?
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2009, 12:19:07 AM »

If Orthodox Christians can profess that original sin is washed away at baptism (for example in the case of an infant); in what since is that to be taken. Because 1) if an actual or personal sin is not transmitted down (hereditary sin of Adam), and we are not through baptism restored to life in the since that Adam was before the fall (because we still have a propensity to sin and we still die). Then what are we washed off, what does it mean for an Orthodox Christian to say that baptism cleanses you of Original Sin? I would like detailed answers if at all possible. Thanks!

The purposes of Holy Baptism are 1: To remove the consequences of the 'original sin'. 2: To wash away all other sins committed before the time of Baptism if the person is beyond the age of infancy. 3: To unite the person to "The Body of Christ" (that is, the Church), and to open the door of salvation and eternal life to him or her.

From the Orthodox Study Bible:

Baptism is the Sacrament whereby one is born again, buried with Christ, resurrected with Him and united to Him. In baptism, one becomes a Christian and is joined to the Church. In Chirst's baptism, water was set apart unto God as the means by which the holy Spirit would bring to us new life and entrance into the heavenly Kingdom.

Also from the Orthodox Study Bible:

Holy Baptism

What Is Baptism? Simply put, baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection in union with Jesus Christ. It is a rite of passage, given by Christ to the Church, as an entrance into the Kingdom of God and eternal life.
The Apostle Paul describes the promise of God in this "mystery," as most Orthodox call it, most succinctly when he writes, "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:4). To baptize (Gr. baptizo) literally means to immerse, to put into. Historically, the Orthodox Church has baptized by triple immersion, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).
In the Old Testament, baptism was pictured by the passage of God's people with Moses through the Red Sea (1 Cor. 10:1, 2). John the Baptist, the last prophet of the Old Covenant, baptized in water unto repentance (Mark 1:4; Acts 19:4). John's baptism was received by Jesus, who thereby transformed the water and baptism itself. In the New Covenant, baptism is the means by which we enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5), are joined to Christ (Rom. 6:3), and are granted the remission of our sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

What Results from Baptism? From the start, the Church has understood baptism as:
(1) A first and second dying. Our first dying with Christ in baptism was our death with Him on the Cross. In the fourth century, Cyril of Jerusalem instructed his new converts: "You were led by the hand to the holy pool of divine baptism . . . and each of you was asked if he believed in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And you made that saving confession, you descended into the water and came up again three times. In the very same moment you died and were born."
The second death of baptism is continual-dying to sin daily as we walk in newness of life. St. Paul writes to the Colossians concerning baptism (Col. 2:12) and concludes by saying, "Therefore put to death your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).
(2) The resurrection of righteousness. This is our life in Christ, our new birth and entrance into God's Kingdom (John 3:3), our "newness of life" (Rom. 6:4). It is our being joined to Christ in His glorified humanity and indwelt by God Himself (John 14:23). Our relationship with God is not something static, a legal fiction given to us by a Divine Judge. Rather, this is a dynamic and real life in Christ, holding the promise of everlasting life. Our resurrection to new life now forms a prelude to the resurrection of our body at Christ's Second Coming.
(3) An intimate and continual communion with God. We are raised to new life for a purpose: union and communion with God. In this sense baptism is the beginning of eternal life. For this reason, Peter writes that baptism now saves us (1 Pet. 3:21)-it is not the mere removal of dirt from our bodies, but it provides us with "a good conscience toward God."
Because of these promises, the priest prays for the newly baptized, thanking God "who has given us, unworthy though we be, blessed purification through holy water, and divine sanctification through life-giving chrismation, and who now also has been pleased to bring new life to Your servant newly illuminated by water and the Spirit, and granted remission of sins - voluntary and involuntary."
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 12:20:49 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2009, 12:58:29 AM »

Thank you - couldn't have said it better.
Infants are covered through the protection of baptism. It is our duty to cover our children in God's grace.
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2009, 09:31:44 AM »

Here's what a present-day Russian Orthodox bishop (+Hilarion (Alfeev)) writes about the Holy Mystery of Baptism (http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/alfeev30/Main.htm):

"Таинство Крещения является дверью в Церковь как Царство благодати — с него начинается христианская жизнь. Крещение — грань, отделяющая членов тела Христова от прочих людей, находящихся вне этого тела. В Крещении человек облекается во Христа, по словам апостола Павла, которые поются во время обхождения крещаемых вокруг купели: «Елицы во Христа крестистеся, во Христа облекостеся» (Гал. 3:27: «все вы, во Христа крестившиеся, во Христа облеклись»). В Крещении человек умирает для греховной жизни и воскресает в новую духовную жизнь, о чем говорится в апостольском чтении, содержащемся в чинопоследовании таинства: «Все мы, крестившиеся во Христа Иисуса, в смерть Его крестились. Итак, мы погреблись с Ним крещением в смерть, дабы, как Христос воскрес из мертвых славою Отца, так и нам ходить в обновленной жизни... Если мы умерли со Христом, то веруем, что и жить будем с Ним, зная, что Христос, воскресши из мертвых, уже не умирает, смерть уже не имеет над ним власти... Так и вы почитайте себя мертвыми для греха, живыми же для Бога» (Рим. 6:3-11)."

(The Mystery of Baptism is the door to the Church where the Church is understood as the Kingdom of grace - it is the Baptism that serves as the beginning of the Christian life. Baptism is the border that separates the members of the Body of Christ from the rest of the humankind, which is outside of this Body. In Baptism, a human being is clothed in Christ, as said by the apostle Paul and as sung during the walk of those who are being baptised around the baptismal pool: "Those who were baptised in Christ, were clothed in Christ" (Galatians 3:27). In Baptism, the human being dies for the sinful life and is being resurrected for the new spiritual life, as said in the writings of the apostle read during the liturgical follow-up: “All of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death. Therefore, you were buried with Him into death by your Baptism, in order to walk anew in our new life with Him, just like He Himself rose from the dead by the glory of the Father… If we died with Christ, then we believe that we will also live with Him, knowing thtat Christ, having risen from the dead, does not die again, for the death has no dominion over Him… Likewise, you should consider yourself dead for sin but alive for God” (Romans 6:3-11).”

And later in the same chapter:

Таинство Крещения совершается однажды в жизни. В Крещении человек получает освобождение от первородного греха и прощение всех своих грехов. Однако оно является лишь первой ступенью восхождения души к Богу, и если за ним не следует обновление всей жизни, духовное перерождение, решительный отказ от дел «ветхого человека», то оно не приносит плода. Благодать Божья, получаемая в Крещении как залог, как семя, будет прорастать в человеке и многообразно проявляться на протяжении всей его жизни, если он стремится ко Христу, живет в Церкви и исполняет заповеди. Если же Крещение было только формальностью, данью традиции или моде, и человек продолжает жить как язычник или неверующий, он лишается всех плодов таинства, отлучает себя от Христа и извергает себя из Церкви.

(“The Mystery of Baptism happens only once in a lifetime. In the Baptism, the human being receives liberation from the original sin, and firgiveness of all his or her sins. However, this Mystery is only the first step in the ascention of the soul to God, and if it is not followed by a renewal of the entire life, a spiritual rebirth, a decisive rejection of the deeds of the “old person,” – then it will not bear fruit. God’s grace, received in Baptism as a pledge or promise, will start to grow in the human being and will manifest in many ways during all of his or her life – but only if he or she yearns for Christ, lives in the Church and obeys the commandments. If, however, the Baptism was merely a formality, a tribute to tradition or fashion, and the baptised human being continues to live like a pagan or an unbeliever, - then this human being him- or herself deprives him- or herself from all fruit of the Baptism, excommunicates him- or herself from Christ, and expunges him- or herself from the Church.”)

(The translation is mine. Sorry if it is amateurish and imprecise.)

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 09:33:48 AM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2009, 11:06:11 AM »

Heorij - I thought it was quite a good translation, although I would not be a very good authority on the subject of Russian Translation. But still, insightful and adhering to Orthodoxy in its basic teaching.

I would think that with all the information provided, from a chatecumen's point of view, one could make a good case for infant baptism here.

Thank you all for your posts. I hope this sums it up for the kid before it gets off topic. 
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Tags: baptism Original Sin 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.084 seconds with 43 queries.