What do you think of other religions?

[believer74]

I'm interested to hear what folks on this forum think, REALLY THINK, of other people's faiths.  Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, any.  Do you believe God has revealed aspects of Himself in other places and times?
Do you feel we have something to learn from non-Christian religion? 
Do you believe one can be saved outside Orthodoxy?  Outside of Christianity?
"On the ground," do you tend to get to know people of other traditions?

So, please be honest. Thanks. 

[John of the North]

Signs of God are everywhere. But the Fullness of the Faith is only in Orthodox Christianity.

[Alveus Lacuna]

I studied the religions of the world for years in the academy.  I also studied Christian history and theology for several years.  I say all of that to say that God led me to the Orthodox Church.  The #1 religion in the world!!!

[AlexanderOfBergamo]

I tendentially divide non-Orthodox religions into four categories:
1) Pre-Christian religions (such as Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and many extinct or non-extinct religions)
2) Heterodox Trinitarian churches (such as mainline Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism and Old Catholicism)
3) Anti-trinitarian Christ-based parachurches (Jehovism, Mormonism, Unitarianism and Islamism)
4) Anti-Christian religious movements (Baha'i faith, Raelism, Scientology, New Age...)

My attitude towards these movements largely depends on their origins and faith...

1) The first group I think might be made of faiths and philosophies containing *seeds* of truth, prefiguring the coming of Christ. For example, Zoroastrianism is a quasi-monotheistic religion, and in the character of Mithra are prefigured many elements later absorbed in the Orthodox Church, such as birth of Mithra (Messiah) on December 25th (the Magi were also of this religion). On Judaism I maintain a cold approach: I mean I respect the Jewish people but I still condemn the Jewish authorities who manipulated the Bible and who consider Jesus as a sort of political rebel and not at least as a great rabbi... I am also fascinated by Hinduism as the Trimurti seems to prefigure the Holy Trinity, especially the image of Vishnu taking on his avatars, sorts of incarnations... I find that these religions are good, and indeed most of them (except Judaism) have no specific hatred against Christianity.
2) I generally have a high esteem towards Oriental Orthodox (whom I particularly love and respect, considering them as our "lesser brethrens"), Old Catholics and Anglicans (of course, I like especially the most traditional ones). I don't like many protestant movements but I generally respect Lutheranism. On the Roman Catholic Church, I believe that there are true believers in it and that it also produced many saints, yet I still consider its hierarchy to be overtly in heresy (especially popes).
3) I strongly hate Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. I mean the heresiarchs, of course. I find myself convinced that their believers won't probably be saved - or better, they could have even less probabilities to be saved then a pagan believer, 'cause they know of Christ but openly reject his Divinity and the essence of his Gospel. I don't hate Muslims so much, but I still consider them as strongly heretic and associated with JWs and Mormons for that reason.
4) Bahai's are openly anti-Christian. They believe a mixture of different Gnostic Judaisms and consider Jesus to be an impostor. I think Baha'i are at the highest level of heresy. Raelism, Scientology and New Age are false religions, and true relativistic movements. They either transform Jesus into an alien (Raelism), into an enlightened man (Scientology) or into one of a series of buddha-like characters (and even not the most important one!). They either don't believe in a true God or relativistically leave the question of Godhead at a personal level, so that they aren't true religions stricto sensu. Definitely, those in this category are entirely outside of God's grace, since they mistreat Jesus, often even rejecting his good works and teachings... How could they be saved when they murder Jesus again and again with their words?

In conclusion, I'll add that only God can decide who will be saved outside of Orthodoxy, providing extra-ordinary grace to them. Grace is surely present, in an ordinary and full way, only within the Orthodox Church!
I'd like to know what others think about this.

In Christ,   Alex

[ialmisry]

I'm interested to hear what folks on this forum think, REALLY THINK, of other people's faiths.  Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, any.  Do you believe God has revealed aspects of Himself in other places and times?
Do you feel we have something to learn from non-Christian religion? 
Do you believe one can be saved outside Orthodoxy?  Outside of Christianity?
"On the ground," do you tend to get to know people of other traditions?

So, please be honest. Thanks. 

Some religions lead towards God, some lead away from Him.  Only Orthodoxy leads to Him.
You can learn something from anything.
Outside it?  Yes. Without it, no.
Yes, I know plenty of people of various religions.

[Gabriel]

4) Bahai's are openly anti-Christian. They believe a mixture of different Gnostic Judaisms and consider Jesus to be an impostor. I think Baha'i are at the highest level of heresy.

Uhhh... you might want to do some re-reading of the Baha'i faith.  They consider Jesus to be a Manifestation of God.  They also consider Baha'u'llah to be the 2nd coming of Christ.

I'd hardly think they'd be spouting their newest Manifestation as a return of one of the old ones were he an "imposter" (whatever that means).

“Know though that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things…We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things…Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”

[Gabriel]

4) Bahai's are openly anti-Christian. They believe a mixture of different Gnostic Judaisms and consider Jesus to be an impostor. I think Baha'i are at the highest level of heresy.

Uhhh... you might want to do some re-reading of the Baha'i faith.  They consider Jesus to be a Manifestation of God.  They also consider Baha'u'llah to be the 2nd coming of Christ.

I'd hardly think they'd be spouting their newest Manifestation as a return of one of the old ones were he an "imposter" (whatever that means).

“Know though that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things…We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things…Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”

They have their own theology and their own sacred writings.  What the heck does "Gnostic Judaisms" mean?   

[Heorhij]

I very strongly agree with what Ukiemeister and Ialmisry said above.

Certainly, one can learn a lot from various religions, but it is not correct to assume that all of them express the truth, just in different ways. I, too, believe that certain religions, especialy the present-day New Age or neopagan religions, lead away from God rather than to God (because they so strongly accent on self-indulgence, serving self).

[Αριστοκλής]

Frankly, I don't think about them at all. 

[ytterbiumanalyst]

We should be always willing to learn from others. Where there is wisdom, it holds value for us, even if it comes from one who is not of us.
I don't know if anyone can be saved, but I hope so. I trust that the Church will tell me how to be saved, and if others trust other religions, I hope it works for them. Mostly I don't want to see anyone perish.
I do know people of other traditions. Because of my location, I know mostly evangelicals and Catholics, but I do know a few mainline Protestants, and I work with a woman whose family is LDS. I realize that all these fall under "Christianity," but in the Ozarks, there really aren't any other religions to speak of.

[Αριστοκλής]

We should be always willing to learn from others. Where there is wisdom, it holds value for us, even if it comes from one who is not of us.
I don't know if anyone can be saved, but I hope so. I trust that the Church will tell me how to be saved, and if others trust other religions, I hope it works for them. Mostly I don't want to see anyone perish.
I do know people of other traditions. Because of my location, I know mostly evangelicals and Catholics, but I do know a few mainline Protestants, and I work with a woman whose family is LDS. I realize that all these fall under "Christianity," but in the Ozarks, there really aren't any other religions to speak of.

I make it a practice to attempt to learn from each individual I encounter.  In some ways I see these meetings as meant to impart some lesson or opportunity. But this does not extend beyond the individual to his other religion.

[Elpidophoros]

πάντες οἱ θεοὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν δαιμόνια
列邦諸神皆邪魔
(All the gods of nations demons)

[monkvasyl]

Signs of God are everywhere. But the Fullness of the Faith is only in Orthodox Christianity.

Amen to that, brother.

[believer74]

Thanks for indulging me, all.  Just trying to gain a better sense of the climate.  To be honest I think I don't fit very well.  I think that somehow, although I believe I am overall a good person, at another level, I am a 'bad' Orthodox.  Or maybe these forums are not an accurate microcosm of the Orthodox world.
I believe in God.  I need Him.  I was a Catholic, and I always had a feeling that wasn't where I belonged.
I converted to this religion two years ago and I still just can't embrace the fierce attitude so many people around me seem to adhere to.  No one seems to be unsure of their faith, or at least they don't talk about it in much detail.  I confess to doubt (e.g. teachings,) and am told I just think too much.
I feel a sense of otherness.  Again.  (Sigh.)
 I don't expect anyone to offer me a solution, at times one just needs to vent b/c they have no one in real life to whom such things can be revealed without a degree of risk. 

peace,
c

[Riddikulus]

I'm interested to hear what folks on this forum think, REALLY THINK, of other people's faiths.  Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, any. 

I believe that all truth comes from the One True God, wherever it is found. I believe that what we do in this life is more important than whether or not we have the correct doctrine. I'm not meaning to belittle Orthodoxy in any way, I believe the correct doctrine is found within the Church. But just because I believe that, doesn't mean that all other religions are demonic.

Do you believe God has revealed aspects of Himself in other places and times?

Yes.

Do you feel we have something to learn from non-Christian religion? 

Yes.

Do you believe one can be saved outside Orthodoxy?  Outside of Christianity?

Yes.

"On the ground," do you tend to get to know people of other traditions?

Yes.

[Etsi]

Ridikkulus,

How do you come to the view, as a Christian, that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us?

[Riddikulus]

Thanks for indulging me, all.  Just trying to gain a better sense of the climate.  To be honest I think I don't fit very well. I think that somehow, although I believe I am overall a good person, at another level, I am a 'bad' Orthodox.  Or maybe these forums are not an accurate microcosm of the Orthodox world.

They probably aren't; and probably shouldn't be taken too seriously.

I believe in God.  I need Him.  I was a Catholic, and I always had a feeling that wasn't where I belonged.
I converted to this religion two years ago and I still just can't embrace the fierce attitude so many people around me seem to adhere to. 

I know exactly what you mean. I've haven't experienced that fierce partisanship, either.

  No one seems to be unsure of their faith, or at least they don't talk about it in much detail.  I confess to doubt (e.g. teachings,) and am told I just think too much.

I don't consider myself ever as being unsure of my faith in God, but I confess I have doubt regarding many things that some people place a great importance on. I have been told the same thing with regard to thinking too much; usually by people I believe think too little.

I feel a sense of otherness.  Again.  (Sigh.)

I think that's fine as long as it doesn't lead us into pride, the kind of "I see dumb people" pride that could lead us into some kind of narcissistic delusion.

I don't expect anyone to offer me a solution, at times one just needs to vent b/c they have no one in real life to whom such things can be revealed without a degree of risk. 

While I can't offer you a solution, I do agree. Venting is important!

[Riddikulus]

Ridikkulus,

How do you come to the view, as a Christian, that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us?

I don't hold to the view that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us, for all mankind. I do, however, hold to the view that knowing what Christ has done for all of mankind, mercy is the prerogative of God and we overstep our boundaries if we say that those outside the Church are condemned because they don't have correct knowledge.

Being Orthodox is no guarantee of salvation; neither is being outside the faith a guarantee of condemnation. We see this in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ, in that story, is clearly approving of the actions of a person from a group loathed by those who thought they had all the right answers. And yet the man with the *incorrect doctrine*, outside of those who thought they were guaranteed a ticket to heaven, is the one who loves his neighbour; the one approved by Christ. One can imagine the consternation of those who heard that story from Christ's own lips. How could a condemned infidel be the hero of any tale? And yet Christ chose to tell that story for the very reason of making a point regarding the importance of loving one's neighbour.

Matthew 25 shows us that how we love is important. God judges the heart; the one who responds to Christ's law of love without knowing of Him may be judged as righteous. Christ makes it clear that not all those who cry "Lord, Lord" are saved. Many who *know* Him are rejected; having believed themselves to be the conduits of all truth. But in doing the wrong of not loving their fellow man, they really only have a head knowledge and are condemned by their own lack of practical love. 

edited for clarity 

[Etsi]

Ridikkulus,

How do you come to the view, as a Christian, that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us?

I don't hold to the view that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us, for all mankind. I do, however, hold to the view that knowing what Christ has done for all of mankind, mercy is the prerogative of God and we overstep our boundaries if we say that those outside the Church are condemned because they don't have correct knowledge.

Being Orthodox is no guarantee of salvation; neither is being outside the faith a guarantee of condemnation. We see this in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ, in that story, is clearly approving of the actions of a person from a group loathed by those who thought they had all the right answers. And yet the man with the *incorrect doctrine*, outside of those who thought they were guaranteed a ticket to heaven, is the one who loves his neighbour; the one approved by Christ. One can imagine the consternation of those who heard that story from Christ's own lips. How could a condemned infidel be the hero of any tale? And yet Christ chose to tell that story for the very reason of making a point regarding the importance of loving one's neighbour.

Matthew 25 shows us that how we love is important. God judges the heart; the one who responds to Christ's law of love without knowing of Him may be judged as righteous. Christ makes it clear that not all those who cry "Lord, Lord" are saved. Many who *know* Him are rejected; having believed themselves to be the conduits of all truth. But in doing the wrong of not loving their fellow man, they really only have a head knowledge and are condemned by their own lack of practical love. 

edited for clarity 

So in a sense, it's another type of belief in election?  (sorry if my questions sound ignorant...I'm trying to connect things)

[Riddikulus]

Ridikkulus,

How do you come to the view, as a Christian, that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us?

I don't hold to the view that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us, for all mankind. I do, however, hold to the view that knowing what Christ has done for all of mankind, mercy is the prerogative of God and we overstep our boundaries if we say that those outside the Church are condemned because they don't have correct knowledge.

Being Orthodox is no guarantee of salvation; neither is being outside the faith a guarantee of condemnation. We see this in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ, in that story, is clearly approving of the actions of a person from a group loathed by those who thought they had all the right answers. And yet the man with the *incorrect doctrine*, outside of those who thought they were guaranteed a ticket to heaven, is the one who loves his neighbour; the one approved by Christ. One can imagine the consternation of those who heard that story from Christ's own lips. How could a condemned infidel be the hero of any tale? And yet Christ chose to tell that story for the very reason of making a point regarding the importance of loving one's neighbour.

Matthew 25 shows us that how we love is important. God judges the heart; the one who responds to Christ's law of love without knowing of Him may be judged as righteous. Christ makes it clear that not all those who cry "Lord, Lord" are saved. Many who *know* Him are rejected; having believed themselves to be the conduits of all truth. But in doing the wrong of not loving their fellow man, they really only have a head knowledge and are condemned by their own lack of practical love. 

edited for clarity 

So in a sense, it's another type of belief in election?  (sorry if my questions sound ignorant...I'm trying to connect things)

You will have to forgive my ignorance. I don't know what you mean by *belief in election*.

[Etsi]

Ridikkulus,

How do you come to the view, as a Christian, that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us?

I don't hold to the view that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us, for all mankind. I do, however, hold to the view that knowing what Christ has done for all of mankind, mercy is the prerogative of God and we overstep our boundaries if we say that those outside the Church are condemned because they don't have correct knowledge.

Being Orthodox is no guarantee of salvation; neither is being outside the faith a guarantee of condemnation. We see this in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ, in that story, is clearly approving of the actions of a person from a group loathed by those who thought they had all the right answers. And yet the man with the *incorrect doctrine*, outside of those who thought they were guaranteed a ticket to heaven, is the one who loves his neighbour; the one approved by Christ. One can imagine the consternation of those who heard that story from Christ's own lips. How could a condemned infidel be the hero of any tale? And yet Christ chose to tell that story for the very reason of making a point regarding the importance of loving one's neighbour.

Matthew 25 shows us that how we love is important. God judges the heart; the one who responds to Christ's law of love without knowing of Him may be judged as righteous. Christ makes it clear that not all those who cry "Lord, Lord" are saved. Many who *know* Him are rejected; having believed themselves to be the conduits of all truth. But in doing the wrong of not loving their fellow man, they really only have a head knowledge and are condemned by their own lack of practical love. 

edited for clarity 

So in a sense, it's another type of belief in election?  (sorry if my questions sound ignorant...I'm trying to connect things)

You will have to forgive my ignorance. I don't know what you mean by *belief in election*.

That God chooses those that are His and those that are not.

[Douglas]

I don't hold to the view that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us, for all mankind. I do, however, hold to the view that knowing what Christ has done for all of mankind, mercy is the prerogative of God and we overstep our boundaries if we say that those outside the Church are condemned because they don't have correct knowledge.

Being Orthodox is no guarantee of salvation...

I completely agree. Well said. 

[IPC]

Dear believer74,

Very good question.

Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Voodoo, Spiritism, and all of the non christian religions are different forms of paganism, they do not believe in the one true God.

Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Jehova Witnesses, and the rest of "christian" religions are different groups of heretics, meaning they have their own particular believes, different from those revealed to us by God. Even though they claim to be christians, they are worst than pagans, for they believe and preach a false christ.

The True Orthodox Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where Christ is preached, and where sound doctrine is preserved unchanged.

In matters of faith and spirituality, you have nothing to learn from pagans and heretics, but in traditions, there are many things you can learn.

On the ground, in my day to day life, I get to know people from all over the world, with different religions, and I really enjoy talking to them, and learning their languages, their traditions, and what they believe.

For example, I know people from India, they are hinduists, and I learned many things from them. For example, to say hello, they put their hands together, at the level of their chests, make a gentle bow and say "namaste".

Namaste is usually translated as "hello", but it is not hello, it's a word with deep meaning, a way to show others absolute respect, something like saying "I see God in you".

As a christian, I know we are all created at image and resemblance of God, and we should respect each others, and I found that greeting very correct, like a bit of truth dropped among pagans, and I took it.

I like saying "namaste", bowing, and saying a little silent prayer in my head like "May Christ our God save you". Of course, I do this only with the indians, don't you think I'm flamboyant and go out there saying it to every single person.

You really have nothing to learn from a non christian and a heretical religion, and you can't be saved outside the True Orthodox Church, which is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

But be not affraid, do not worry, our Lord and God Jesus Christ came to save us, and if you really want to be saved, He will take you to the One Church, which is the arc of salvation. Ask, and you'll receive, knock, and it will be opened. There is One God, One Saviour, One Church, and One path to salvation.

[Riddikulus]

Ridikkulus,

How do you come to the view, as a Christian, that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us?

I don't hold to the view that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us, for all mankind. I do, however, hold to the view that knowing what Christ has done for all of mankind, mercy is the prerogative of God and we overstep our boundaries if we say that those outside the Church are condemned because they don't have correct knowledge.

Being Orthodox is no guarantee of salvation; neither is being outside the faith a guarantee of condemnation. We see this in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ, in that story, is clearly approving of the actions of a person from a group loathed by those who thought they had all the right answers. And yet the man with the *incorrect doctrine*, outside of those who thought they were guaranteed a ticket to heaven, is the one who loves his neighbour; the one approved by Christ. One can imagine the consternation of those who heard that story from Christ's own lips. How could a condemned infidel be the hero of any tale? And yet Christ chose to tell that story for the very reason of making a point regarding the importance of loving one's neighbour.

Matthew 25 shows us that how we love is important. God judges the heart; the one who responds to Christ's law of love without knowing of Him may be judged as righteous. Christ makes it clear that not all those who cry "Lord, Lord" are saved. Many who *know* Him are rejected; having believed themselves to be the conduits of all truth. But in doing the wrong of not loving their fellow man, they really only have a head knowledge and are condemned by their own lack of practical love. 

edited for clarity 

So in a sense, it's another type of belief in election?  (sorry if my questions sound ignorant...I'm trying to connect things)

You will have to forgive my ignorance. I don't know what you mean by *belief in election*.

That God chooses those that are His and those that are not.

I think it's more about man responding to God, by God's grace. Those outside the Orthodox church are responding to charismatic Grace, (whether it be in another Christian tradition or one that is non-Christian), rather than the sacramental Grace found within the Church. Hopefully, by responding favourably to God (I couldn't think of another word beside *favourably*, and that doesn't sound quite right), one is brought into a relationship with Christ through His Church; but there are many reasons why that might not happen. If it doesn't, for whatever reason, I believe we would be rather arrogant in claiming that the *yes* to God of other people in the only way they might know of, is useless and that person is condemned.

[Basil 320]

My personal opinions, I'm not asking those so entrusted to advocate these opinions officially, nor would I want them to. The Church should be more tolerant than what I am expressing below. The following is quickly and informally written.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity is the Fullness of the One True Faith.  Roman Catholicism  is to be quite respected, though errant, primarily because of the position they have granted to the Bishop of Rome, as time has gone by, though Orthodoxy lacks the organization that the Vatican has brought to Catholicism.  Anglicanism was nearer to the truth, but has progressively lost what bonafide Traditions it held previously because of the authority it gives to its Lambeth (sp) conferences.  Officially, all Trinitarian Christian denominations, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, should be held in high esteem, but in the past 40 years have watered down their faith to a "God is Love" syndrome, symbolized by acceptance of homosexual and female clergy.  Assembly of God and that type, hold some valid theology, but no where near what should be within its tradition.

I hold Judaism in high esteem because it is the root of Holy Orthodoxy, but the "Reformed" wing is to Judaism what the United Church of Christ is to Orthodox Christianity.

Islam is false teaching and their inability to even speak out against their uncivilized followers who conduct spinless terroristic murder, in the name of their religion, renders this faith a danger to humanity.

Those Eastern religions are heresies, but St. Paul tells us those who have not heard the teachings of Christ, will be judged on their works.  

Those who leave Orthodoxy and Christianity are probably condemned to damnation, unfortunately.

[Gkterra]

You really have nothing to learn from a non christian and a heretical religion, and you can't be saved outside the True Orthodox Church

I usually refrain from posting in matters such as these but....
Would you mind enlightening us on how arrived at this definitive? As far as I'm concerned, only God knows Who will be chosen. We have no right, as imperfect sinners, to make any assumption such as yours.

Peace be with you

George

[Irish Hermit]

...you can't be saved outside the True Orthodox Church, .

<Can of worms opening>    I know that you honestly believe that, and that only Russian Zarist Church members will be saved.

Since you are the sole member of the Russian Zarist Church on this forum you are surrounded here by the dark souls of the damned.  That must be a bit scary for you so it takes a bit of courage to write here.   Does the Zarist Church have any programmes for bringing us to salvation?

[IPC]

Dear George,

The Lord Himself in the bible calls heretics worst than pagans and His personal enemies, and in the whole bible we can read how the false teachers and the false doctrines, as well as pagans (the heathen) estrange themselves from the Saviour and will not be saved.

I wouldn't dare to state my personal opinion, or make any assumptions on this subject.

Thank you for your honest comment.

[simplygermain]

.....Here We Go Again!.........IPC!  What a surprise!
Tell me, are ther only 144,000 of you as well?!

When will this guy be extracted from this forum?! Can I get a forum vote on this?!

[Irish Hermit]

.....Here We Go Again!.........IPC!  What a surprise!
Tell me, are ther only 144,000 of you as well?!

When will this guy be extracted from this forum?! Can I get a forum vote on this?!

I would vote for his staying.  Thanks to IPC we can learn the views of the True Orthodox Churches.  It *is* a bit of a gamble to assume that IPC is a genuine representative of the True Orthodox Churches - I have wondered about this a little since the name of his Church does not include the word "Orthodox" but it is the "Russian Zarist Church" and seems more of a semi-political semi-religious group. 

Probably this thread "What do you think of other religions?" could be the right place to make enquiries about IPC's Church.

[Riddikulus]

Dear George,

The Lord Himself in the bible calls heretics worst than pagans and His personal enemies, and in the whole bible we can read how the false teachers and the false doctrines, as well as pagans (the heathen) estrange themselves from the Saviour and will not be saved.

I wouldn't dare to state my personal opinion, or make any assumptions on this subject.

Thank you for your honest comment.

If the Lord did as you say above, he would have been talking to Jewish Leaders who had manipulated God's dealings with the people of Israel in such a way that in their pride they couldn't recognise their own Messiah. In denying Him, these powerful few led those who followed them from their Annointed One and to eventual destruction. I'm not sure that we can take words that the Lord spoke to the religious leaders of His time and assume that they apply to everyone whom we might consider to be a heretic.   

I also feel that you are overstating the case concerning those who are pagans.

Fr. Thomas Hopko states in his "Church doctrine" series;

... although God's self-revelation in history through the chosen people of Israel--the revelation which culminates in the coming of Christ the Messiah--is of primary importance, it is also the doctrine of the Christian Church that all genuine strivings of men after the truth are fulfilled in Christ. Every genuine insight into the meaning of life finds its perfection in the Christian Gospel. Thus, the holy fathers of the Church taught that the yearnings of pagan religions and the wisdom of many philosophers are also capable of serving to prepare men for the doctrines of Jesus and are indeed valid and genuine ways to the one Truth of God.

In the final analysis, we don't know who is or isn't saved. We don't know what the outcome is for people of pagan faiths. Even as far as our own personal salvation goes, we rely on the mercy of God - and if we are incapable of judging our own salvation how much less can we speak of the salvation of others? God sees and understands much more than we could ever hope to see and understand and I would consider it very hazardous to ursurp His role as Judge and decide who is excluded from salvation.   

[simplygermain]

Dear George,

The Lord Himself in the bible calls heretics worst than pagans and His personal enemies, and in the whole bible we can read how the false teachers and the false doctrines, as well as pagans (the heathen) estrange themselves from the Saviour and will not be saved.

I wouldn't dare to state my personal opinion, or make any assumptions on this subject.

Thank you for your honest comment.

If the Lord did as you say above, he would have been talking to Jewish Leaders who had manipulated God's dealings with the people of Israel in such a way that in their pride they couldn't recognise their own Messiah. In denying Him, these powerful few led those who followed them from their Annointed One and to eventual destruction. I'm not sure that we can take words that the Lord spoke to the religious leaders of His time and assume that they apply to everyone whom we might consider to be a heretic.   

I also feel that you are overstating the case concerning those who are pagans.

Fr. Thomas Hopko states in his "Church doctrine" series;

... although God's self-revelation in history through the chosen people of Israel--the revelation which culminates in the coming of Christ the Messiah--is of primary importance, it is also the doctrine of the Christian Church that all genuine strivings of men after the truth are fulfilled in Christ. Every genuine insight into the meaning of life finds its perfection in the Christian Gospel. Thus, the holy fathers of the Church taught that the yearnings of pagan religions and the wisdom of many philosophers are also capable of serving to prepare men for the doctrines of Jesus and are indeed valid and genuine ways to the one Truth of God.

In the final analysis, we don't know who is or isn't saved. We don't know what the outcome is for people of pagan faiths. Even as far as our own personal salvation goes, we rely on the mercy of God - and if we are incapable of judging our own salvation how much less can we speak of the salvation of others? God sees and understands much more than we could ever hope to see and understand and I would consider it very hazardous to ursurp His role as Judge and decide who is excluded from salvation.   

well spoken.

[AlexanderOfBergamo]

Oops, for some unknown - and unexplainable - reason, I confused Baha'i with Mandaeism. Mandaeism considers Jesus an imposter. I beg pardon to all those who are near to the Baha'i faith: it was not my intention to offend anybody. I was just a little bit tired when I wrote that thing and exchanged the two religions GLOM

[Gabriel]

Oops, for some unknown - and unexplainable - reason, I confused Baha'i with Mandaeism. Mandaeism considers Jesus an imposter. I beg pardon to all those who are near to the Baha'i faith: it was not my intention to offend anybody. I was just a little bit tired when I wrote that thing and exchanged the two religions GLOM

Ah.  That makes sense. 

For anyone not familiar, Mandaeans are a sect in Iraq that believe that John the Baptist is the highest prophet and that Jesus corrupted John's teachings and, like Alexander said, have very gnostic tendencies.

[AlexanderOfBergamo]

Yup, indeed... Still beg pardon for such an horrend mistake...

[IPC]

Dear Riddikulus,

The Lord Himself talked directly to the jews, and called them to repentance, but they, far from listening, crucified Him and persecuted His people. Some jews, like Saul, listened and repented.

The warnings of the Lord against heretics are even stronger than the warnings against jews, and other pagans. See how few "christian leaders" call them Pope, Patriarch, Archbishop, Pastor, and the like, using the name of Christ in vain, manipulate the Scripture, and deny Christ, leading many to their destruction by the worshiping of a false christ, and the father of lies, in a very subtle way.

See the danger and perniciousness of heresies? See how caustic they are? Marx, observing the devastating effects of heretics, mistakenly labeled all religions as the opiate of people. Heresies are really like a drug, that puts people to sleep, closes their mind, and hardens their hearts.

Only the Word of God gives live, opens our understanding, warms our hearts and we really Love Him with all our might, hearts and souls (understanding included).

[Heorhij]

See how few "christian leaders" call them Pope, Patriarch, Archbishop, Pastor, and the like, using the name of Christ in vain, manipulate the Scripture, and deny Christ, leading many to their destruction by the worshiping of a false christ, and the father of lies, in a very subtle way.

Dear IPC,

Like others have already said, you are making very serious accusations without naming the people whom you are accusing, and without presenting any objective evidence proving that your accusations are true. Please, either name the exact names and present the exact factual evidence, or refrain from making such grave accusations, because you are offending very many people when you do so.

Heorhij, mod. "Religious Topics" and your unworthy servant

[Gkterra]

Dear George,

The Lord Himself in the bible calls heretics worst than pagans and His personal enemies, and in the whole bible we can read how the false teachers and the false doctrines, as well as pagans (the heathen) estrange themselves from the Saviour and will not be saved.

I wouldn't dare to state my personal opinion, or make any assumptions on this subject.

Thank you for your honest comment.

No it seems more like your own personal interpretations of scripture, which sounds like an assumption, that you alone have a red phone that connects directly to God himself.

Peace be with you

George

[simplygermain]

.............Hello Commissioner Gordon, this is IPC. We need Batman! Break out the spotlight.........

[Riddikulus]

Dear Riddikulus,

The Lord Himself talked directly to the jews, and called them to repentance, but they, far from listening, crucified Him and persecuted His people. Some jews, like Saul, listened and repented.

The warnings of the Lord against heretics are even stronger than the warnings against jews, and other pagans. See how few "christian leaders" call them Pope, Patriarch, Archbishop, Pastor, and the like, using the name of Christ in vain, manipulate the Scripture, and deny Christ, leading many to their destruction by the worshiping of a false christ, and the father of lies, in a very subtle way.

See the danger and perniciousness of heresies? See how caustic they are? Marx, observing the devastating effects of heretics, mistakenly labeled all religions as the opiate of people. Heresies are really like a drug, that puts people to sleep, closes their mind, and hardens their hearts.

Only the Word of God gives live, opens our understanding, warms our hearts and we really Love Him with all our might, hearts and souls (understanding included).

IPC,

I believe that a sin far greater than anything you have mentioned regarding heresy is a short memory. I'm sure, like the rest of us, you have been seeking God in what have turned out to be the wrong places; even if they have been wrong places that have led you to the Orthodox Church. Even if you have been Orthodox all you life, you have known error. To misunderstand is human. I have accepted the truth of Christ being my Saviour my entire life and still I have made mistakes and misunderstood many things along the long road that led me to the Church. And I'm a headstrong individual so, no doubt, I will continue to make mistakes; even with the guidance of the Church. If I were to rely on absolute "correct understanding" to save me, I would be without hope.

Of course, I understand the danger of heresy, but to be honest with you, I don't see this as being the greatest danger with regard to anyone's salvation. Don't get me wrong, I believe that correct doctrine is important, but so did the Jews of Christ's time and look where it led them. The sense that they were so right while the heathens surrounding them were so wrong bred pride, created enemies out of those they should have loved, made them insular and uncaring about the salvation of those they considered to be damned and beyond hope. I know they didn't start out to do any of this, their concern was for protecting themselves against all that was wrong, but there is that human tendancy to over-analyse for the sake of being absolutely *right*; a tendancy that runs amok with devastating consequences. We are fallible human beings who can't possibly be 100% correct all the time; even if we convince ourselves that we are. Even the most learned of us fails to fully understand the mind of God.

I believe that the greatest danger to one's salvation, one that ultimately has such a terrible affect on those around us, is the lack of love and empathy for the condition of our fellow creatures, our human brothers and sisters who are still struggling to find God in a mire of misinformation and alterative religions. I believe that as Christians we need to ask ourselves why so many people are choosing any alternative they can to the Orthodox Church; to the Christian faith. Why do some go so far from us as they can possibly get, to find their answers in Buddhism, Ba`hai, Wiccan or the multitude of other options they have available to them; why have so many rejected God altogether? What is it that we are doing wrong? What is it they see when they look at us? Do they hear, see, experience news of the Christ who was born, lived and died to reconcile them to God or do we use His truth as a weapon against them; condemning them in their ignorance out of our lack of love? Have we encouraged them to look deeper, or have we driven them away with our harsh condemnation of their ignorance; have we judged them more harshly than God has judged us? Have we made the same mistakes as the Jews? Have we forgotten where we came from, that we were once slaves and that it was Christ Who set us free; and has that freedom made us contemptuous of those who still struggle in ignorance towards God as we once struggled?

Forgive me for ranting, but we are to be known for our love and it seems that Christian history tells us that we have too often failed to love our fellow Christians, let alone those who don't believe in Christ. If we are to be known for our love for one another, don't we fail miserably when we harshly and publicly condemn those who don't see things exactly as we do. Is it any wonder that so many spiritual people don't consider Christianity as a viable option anymore? 

Please forgive me if I have given offence.

[simplygermain]

Word. If I had never found "heretical" Rastafari, I would probably never have found Orthodoxy. Or to look at it the other way, the Lord Jesus used Rastafari and Haile Sellassie I to lead me to Him.

[Riddikulus]

Word. If I had never found "heretical" Rastafari, I would probably never have found Orthodoxy. Or to look at it the other way, the Lord Jesus used Rastafari and Haile Sellassie I to lead me to Him.

Exactly. We don't know where the *heretic's* path leads; any more than we do that of the *pagan*. C. S. Lewis made the observation that we Christians have commonalities with pagans, and that would fit with the quote from Fr Hopko that I quoted earlier. The pagan has awareness or knowledge of a divine being; they are on a journey that we shouldn't hinder. If they don't ask for our advise or opinions regarding their beliefs, it's better that we don't put the stumbling block of condemnation in their way, so that they are diverted from Christ because of they sense contempt and mockery; intentional or not. People don't respond well to uninvited criticism; they will too often respond by digging themselves further into their beliefs and discounting that of the rude and thoughtless aggressor. As St Paul said, we should be a cunning as serpents and gentle as doves. What business it is of ours to chide those who are outside the Church?

[Douglas]

As St Paul said, we should be a cunning as serpents and gentle as doves. What business it is of ours to chide those who are outside the Church?

Just a small point. Our Lord said the above, not St Paul (although St Paul had some very interesting things to say as well  )

[Riddikulus]

As St Paul said, we should be a cunning as serpents and gentle as doves. What business it is of ours to chide those who are outside the Church?

Just a small point. Our Lord said the above, not St Paul (although St Paul had some very interesting things to say as well  )

Diddly-darn, Douglas, of course you are quite right!!

[Douglas]

Diddly-darn, Douglas, of course you are quite right!!

Woo Hoo! First time in many years! I think I'll tell my wife that she owes me more respect now. (well... maybe not) 

[Eugenio]

believer74 asked:

"I'm interested to hear what folks on this forum think, REALLY THINK, of other people's faiths."

I believe they exist.

I believe I need to worry about my own salvation, and leave people in other faiths to worry about theirs. If I get the opportunity, I'll be happy to tell them about Holy Orthodoxy, but otherwise I'll let God determine their path

Apologies if this answer sounds too snide, but I really mean this. It's been my experience and thus is my opinion that much too much time is spent in Orthodox circles debating about the salvation of those outside the church -  and not enough is spent contemplating the salvation of those in the church. And at times I have been as guilty of this as anyone else.

[Douglas]

Great answer, Eugenio. I couldn't agree more.

[Riddikulus]

Diddly-darn, Douglas, of course you are quite right!!

Woo Hoo! First time in many years! I think I'll tell my wife that she owes me more respect now. (well... maybe not) 

 

[Riddikulus]

believer74 asked:

"I'm interested to hear what folks on this forum think, REALLY THINK, of other people's faiths."

I believe they exist.

I believe I need to worry about my own salvation, and leave people in other faiths to worry about theirs. If I get the opportunity, I'll be happy to tell them about Holy Orthodoxy, but otherwise I'll let God determine their path.

Apologies if this answer sounds too snide, but I really mean this. It's been my experience and thus is my opinion that much too much time is spent in Orthodox circles debating about the salvation of those outside the church -  and not enough is spent contemplating the salvation of those in the church. And at times I have been as guilty of this as anyone else.

<deafening applause>

[Ebor]

The Lord Himself in the bible calls heretics worst than pagans and His personal enemies

Would you please post what passage of the Scriptures you are thinking of with the above statement?  Thank you in advance. 

and in the whole bible we can read how the false teachers and the false doctrines, as well as pagans (the heathen) estrange themselves from the Saviour and will not be saved.

Pagans like Ruth the Moabite or Rahab in Jericho?

[simplygermain]

The Lord Himself in the bible calls heretics worst than pagans and His personal enemies

Would you please post what passage of the Scriptures you are thinking of with the above statement?  Thank you in advance. 

and in the whole bible we can read how the false teachers and the false doctrines, as well as pagans (the heathen) estrange themselves from the Saviour and will not be saved.

Pagans like Ruth the Moabite or Rahab in Jericho?

Yes, IPC, Name them And Provide Scripture.

[IPC]

.....Here We Go Again!.........IPC!  What a surprise!
Tell me, are ther only 144,000 of you as well?!

When will this guy be extracted from this forum?! Can I get a forum vote on this?!

I would vote for his staying.  Thanks to IPC we can learn the views of the True Orthodox Churches.  It *is* a bit of a gamble to assume that IPC is a genuine representative of the True Orthodox Churches - I have wondered about this a little since the name of his Church does not include the word "Orthodox" but it is the "Russian Zarist Church" and seems more of a semi-political semi-religious group. 

Probably this thread "What do you think of other religions?" could be the right place to make enquiries about IPC's Church.

First of all, simplygermain, you are nobody here to decide that, it's up to the administrators and moderators to decide who leaves and who stays. So stop whinnying.

Irish Hermit, I know what you're doing, and it's not going to work, no matter how "nice" you pretend to be, you're accountable for what you do, I won't let you get away with anything. If you want to play the victim, I have no problem in playing the "bad guy". So stop trying so hard dag!

[Irish Hermit]

Irish Hermit, I know what you're doing, and it's not going to work, no matter how "nice" you pretend to be, you're accountable for what you do, I won't let you get away with anything. If you want to play the victim, I have no problem in playing the "bad guy". So stop trying so hard dag!

First of all, it's not me who is "getting away with anything."  I am open and aboveboard with who I am and the Church I belong to.  I suppose it is not compulsory here to reveal one's Church membership but you are extremely reluctant to say anything about yours.  I wonder if it is an Orthodox Church because its name is the "Russian Zarist Church."  I have NEVER known any Orthodox Church not to include the word "Orthodox" in its title. 

So while you are pretty feisty about handing out condemnations of other Churches and religions you hide your own allegiance in a cloud and nobody has the foggiest who you are.  You could well be just a troll.  Or you could be a member of a quasi political movement which has monarchy as its centre point and has made something mystical about kings and emperors.

Woukld you be able to say something about your religion.  This seems an appropriate thread to talk about it.

Hieromonk Ambrose

[NorthernPines]

Ridikkulus,

How do you come to the view, as a Christian, that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us?

I don't hold to the view that there is Salvation outside of what Christ has done for us, for all mankind. I do, however, hold to the view that knowing what Christ has done for all of mankind, mercy is the prerogative of God and we overstep our boundaries if we say that those outside the Church are condemned because they don't have correct knowledge.

Being Orthodox is no guarantee of salvation; neither is being outside the faith a guarantee of condemnation. We see this in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ, in that story, is clearly approving of the actions of a person from a group loathed by those who thought they had all the right answers. And yet the man with the *incorrect doctrine*, outside of those who thought they were guaranteed a ticket to heaven, is the one who loves his neighbour; the one approved by Christ. One can imagine the consternation of those who heard that story from Christ's own lips. How could a condemned infidel be the hero of any tale? And yet Christ chose to tell that story for the very reason of making a point regarding the importance of loving one's neighbour.

Matthew 25 shows us that how we love is important. God judges the heart; the one who responds to Christ's law of love without knowing of Him may be judged as righteous. Christ makes it clear that not all those who cry "Lord, Lord" are saved. Many who *know* Him are rejected; having believed themselves to be the conduits of all truth. But in doing the wrong of not loving their fellow man, they really only have a head knowledge and are condemned by their own lack of practical love. 

edited for clarity 

So in a sense, it's another type of belief in election?  (sorry if my questions sound ignorant...I'm trying to connect things)

Dear Etsi,

Well since I agree with Ridikkulus' original answer 100%, let me try and give my own answer and understanding of the question.

First no, it is NOT a belief in election whatsoever. God has not pre-ordained some people to heaven and some people to hell. (if I remember what election means, I've forgotten so many of these theological terms over the years...)


The way I look at this subject is this, if Christ Jesus is God (which we believe He is), then He (God) can save anyone He so chooses, whether or not they are a "Christian" or not. God is not bound by any man made rules, interpretations, nor is He bound by the words of the Scriptures. WE are bound by the Scriptures, but God is not. The text points to Him, not Him to the text.

Only God knows the heart of an individual, and while ultimately it would be the work of the Incarnation, the Cross the Resurrection that ultimately saves everyone who is saved, (for there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which we must be saved), judgment is for God alone. And since Jesus will sit on the Judgement Seat, as God it's His judgment which determines salvation for any individual. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ, no one is saved outside of Christ, but that doesn't mean all Muslims are doomed to hell. If people of other faiths are saved, it is of course because of Christ and through Christ, but Orthodoxy takes a less legalistic approach, Christ doesn't just save "human beings"...for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . . but the word "world" is the greek word "kosmos"...which doesn't not imply "people" but implies ALL of creation. The entire universe is saved through Christ. That doesn't mean "universalism" because God never imposes His will upon creatures with free will....people can always reject Christ, but many people of other faiths do NOT reject Christ per se, they may simply have a complete misunderstanding of who He is, or in fact never heard of Him.

Orthodoxy does not believe (for example) that all Native Americans prior to it's "discovery" by Europeans are all doomed to Hell simply because they never heard of a Jew named Jesus. (or never heard of a Jew for that matter...lol!) But rather as St. Paul said, each person is given a portion of the light and truth, even pagans, and they will be judged according to what they have received. Like the parable of the talents, were they faithful to the portion they received or not?


 And even if indeed, people today have heard of Christ, it is still ultimately He who chooses to save. If God chooses to "save" nearly every Hindu on the planet, and condemn nearly  every Christian to hell, He gets to do it. Maybe most Hindu's are more faithful to Christ in their heart and soul than Christians? I do not know. Only Christ knows. I've read stories where Christ was first preached to indigenous peoples over the centuries, and when these missionaries began to teach, the people would say things like "oh yeah, we already believe that"...they had never heard of Jesus, but they already had a beliefs that mirrored Christianity and/or ancient Judaism in some form or some way. Not in all ways, but there was common ground to work upon. (which is one reason the Alaskans were so readily acceptable to Orthodoxy) Some of the early Christian writers wrote about similar concepts. Even Hinduism has it's Christian parallels.


Now, no matter who they are, they're not being saved "outside" the work of Christ, for which without that, we believe nothing would be saved, but in the end it is His decision, not what we "think" His decision should or should not be.

Just as it was His decision to "fullfill" the Covenant with humanity very, very differently than most Jews 2000 years ago thought He would. Is it unfair to fullfill prophecy that most thought would be literal in a spiritual sense? Maybe. But that made it possible for not just a select group of people to be saved, but ALL humanity to have the chance to be saved. So which would have been more "unfair"? So who knows? It might seem equally "unfair" that Jesus can save people who are not Christians, but not to them, I'm sure.

Ultimately it is Jesus doing the saving, but God can and does work in ways which we never would imagine. Rest assured, there is no Salvation outside the work of Christ, this is the center of Orthodox Christianity, however it is not for us to judge who will and who will not be saved. I have a hard time believing that God would condemn the majority of the human race to hell simply because they never heard of Christ, or had a misunderstanding of who Christ was. (which is probably true of most non Christians today) That turns Christianity into an extremely legalistic religion, rather than what it really is, which is giving us all a chance of life and life more abundantly.

I personally think when this question is raised it's the wrong question. It's always asked, "can non Christians be saved?" When to me, the real question should be, "can God save non Christians"? Because THAT is at the heart of the matter. Salvation is not something WE do, it is something God did, in the work of Jesus Christ. For me the answer to "can God save non Christians?" has to be a big YES. Otherwise we've found something God is incapable of, and hence He really isn't God after all. And thus we're all diluted and have fallen into some form of idolatry of our own making. (a God who can save us, but no one else)

Again, I don't mean to imply universalism, because I'm not a universalist, (nor does Orthodoxy teach it) but I also don't see how we can say who will and who won't be saved based on our understanding of the Scriptures and God. Our minds are just too limited for such things IMO. We certainly should preach and Evangelize, but not  because we think "oh those poor people are going to burn in hell", but because we want, we desire them to have the life that Christ can give them. The joy, the peace, the meaning and purpose for their life....that comes from Christ. If Salvation is just about a "get out of hell free" card, then I don't see it's transformative effects in people lives. Christianity is a means to trasnfigure life, and the world, and THAT is why we should evangelize, and be missionary, IMO.

Anyways, that's long winded, and I apologize. But that's how I understand the subject, if I'm wrong I'm sure i'll be told.

[Riddikulus]

Long-winded! Not at all!! Thanks so much for spending the time with that post, NorthernPines!!!

[simplygermain]

First of all, simplygermain, you are nobody here to decide that, it's up to the administrators and moderators to decide who leaves and who stays. So stop whinnying.

No one's whining...I simply asked if others would vote on the decision to have you removed.
As it stands, silence from the forum keeps you here. However, I have made my opinion known just as you. And no-one is "whinnying" (and the horse goes...)  But I will protest to your constant outpouring of "The Word according to IPC". I will not be quiet if you continue to spout such filth as "Holy Traditions of the Church" about such sensitive matters as this.
There seems to be a consistant underlying theme in your posts which I will not ignore. You constantly are reminded to address with factual evidence those things which you profess as tradition - even administrators/moderators have asked this of you. Yet you are allowed to continue to propagate your ideals on others in the name of Orthodoxy and the Holy Fathers and I fear you may lead astray others who happen upon this thread. This is why I have confronted you. So either control your opinions to a serious debate or I will continue to confront the matter. I don't have to agree with you to like you. I am open to other opinions as long as they can provide grounds. I ask for peace - nothing else. I do not have to be a moderator or administrator to do that. 

[IPC]

simplygermain if you find and error in faith, if you find anything wrong, you're free to say so in a rational way like:

You said this, and is wrong, because,,,,,,,,,,,,

Or you simply can say it's wrong, it's a lie, etc

What is not acceptable is to immediately attack others, and try to do away with them.

I fell in this mistake, and I really wanted to do away with Irish Hermit, because of his constant attacks, but now I understand, after a very difficult post-confession scalding, that it's not right to do so, the Lord lets the thorns grow among the wheat, Who are we to go against His will?

Now, this thread is clear, and I stated cleary what I think, and why, and you, as anyone else, are free to do the same, and not because you say things I don't like, I will do anything to you.

So, recapping and keeping the subject of this topic targetted.

All non christian religions such as judaism, islam, hinduism, budhism, ,,, are paganism, and they lead to eternal damnation.

All non true-orthodox churches, such as anglicans, roman catholics, moscow patriarchate, coptics, malankara,,,, are heretics, and they lead to eternal damnation too.

Only the True Orthodox Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where salvation is found, where people is re-united with the One True God.

The Church has nothing to learn from neither pagans, nor heretics, because She has God, and all His wisdom.

Any comments on this simplegermain? Agree? Disagree? What do you need?

[simplygermain]

yes, I do have a problem...

simplygermain if you find and error in faith, if you find anything wrong, you're free to say so in a rational way like:

You said this, and is wrong, because,,,,,,,,,,,,

Or you simply can say it's wrong, it's a lie, etc

What is not acceptable is to immediately attack others, and try to do away with them.

I fell in this mistake, and I really wanted to do away with Irish Hermit, because of his constant attacks, but now I understand, after a very difficult post-confession scalding, that it's not right to do so, the Lord lets the thorns grow among the wheat, Who are we to go against His will?

Now, this thread is clear, and I stated cleary what I think, and why, and you, as anyone else, are free to do the same, and not because you say things I don't like, I will do anything to you.

So, recapping and keeping the subject of this topic targetted.

All non christian religions such as judaism, islam, hinduism, budhism, ,,, are paganism, and they lead to eternal damnation.

All non true-orthodox churches, such as anglicans, roman catholics, moscow patriarchate, coptics, malankara,,,, are heretics, and they lead to eternal damnation too.

Only the True Orthodox Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where salvation is found, where people is re-united with the One True God.

The Church has nothing to learn from neither pagans, nor heretics, because She has God, and all His wisdom.

Any comments on this simplegermain? Agree? Disagree? What do you need?

yes, you say that the coptics,anglicans, roman catholics etc. What "Canonical" Holy Catholic Apostolic Church has declaired this?

[Eugenio]

IPC I'm so impressed that you know the will of God!

Truly you've been spending a lot of time in that land that I drew a map of in another forum.

Since you believe that non-members of "True" Orthodox churches (such as the ones that 95% of the people on this forum belong to) are destined for damnation (my you worship a fickle God indeed!) perhaps you could tell me where this "True" Orthodox church is? Surely not in Moscow, since you included the Moscow Patriarchate on your list, but still you believe in some fanciful 19th century Russian Shangri-La that exists someplace?

Where is this "Zarist" land where you dwell whose national church is this "Zarist National Church"? I want to go visit Zardomland!

[Eugenio]

I can't wait for the answer...ooo-eee!

[Irish Hermit]

I fell in this mistake, and I really wanted to do away with Irish Hermit, because of his constant attacks, but now I understand, after a very difficult post-confession scalding, that it's not right to do so, the Lord lets the thorns grow among the wheat, Who are we to go against His will?

So now poor Irish Hermit/Hieromonk Ambrose is labelled by you as one of "the thorns growing among the wheat" and his fate is to be uprooted on Judgement day and cast into eternal fire.  IPC, what a piece of work you are!    Or did that judgement of me proceed from your confessor?   More and more, as I hear these unchristian statements and condemnations,  I am led to believe that the "Russian Zarist Church" does not have "Orthodox" in its title for a reason - it is NOT an Orthodox Church; it fails to measure up to the standards of the Gospel of the Saviour.

In this thread about opinions on other religions would you be able to give us an outline of yours.   The secrecy which shrouds it seems even deeper than the secrecy imposed on members of the Lodge.

[Irish Hermit]

All non christian religions such as judaism, islam, hinduism, budhism, ,,, are paganism, and they lead to eternal damnation.

All non true-orthodox churches, such as anglicans, roman catholics, moscow patriarchate, coptics, malankara,,,, are heretics, and they lead to eternal damnation too.

Only the True Orthodox Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where salvation is found....

Got an address for that Church or are people expected to die in damnation while they fumble around the streets and highways looking for it.

You have just condemned 300 million Russian Orthodox in the Moscow Patriarchate to eternal damnation and yet you won't reveal where they can find the fountain of true life.  You are disdaining the Saviour who orders us "not to hide our light under a bushel."

[Gkterra]

All non christian religions such as judaism, islam, hinduism, budhism, ,,, are paganism, and they lead to eternal damnation.

All non true-orthodox churches, such as anglicans, roman catholics, moscow patriarchate, coptics, malankara,,,, are heretics, and they lead to eternal damnation too.

Only the True Orthodox Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, where salvation is found, where people is re-united with the One True God.

The Church has nothing to learn from neither pagans, nor heretics, because She has God, and all His wisdom.

If it's not to much trouble IPC, would you mind interpreting what the Lord meant in Luke 9:49-50? (or what the RZC thinks it means)

49John said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your Name,
and we tried to stop him because he does not follow with us.”
50Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for whoever is not against us is for
us.”

[Douglas]

Since our church (the OCA) has been condemned to damnation, would you mind, IPC, sharing with my wife and me how we can become members of the Zarist Church? Where do I go to become a member? 

[Basil 320]

(Probable) Correction of Data in Reply #61, by Irish Hermit.

The figure used in this post as to the number of faithful within the Church of Russia is probably closer to 100 million, not the 300 million noted in the post, which I'm guessing is probably a typographic error. 

(300 million is the figure commonly cited as the number of Orthodox faithful throughout the world, although, in my opinion, 270 million would be more accurate.)

[Irish Hermit]

(Probable) Correction of Data in Reply #61, by Irish Hermit.

The figure used in this post as to the number of faithful within the Church of Russia is probably closer to 100 million, not the 300 million noted in the post, which I'm guessing is probably a typographic error. 

(300 million is the figure commonly cited as the number of Orthodox faithful throughout the world, although, in my opinion, 270 million would be more accurate.)

Sorry, one just gets so used to the claim that Patriarch Bartholomew is the spiritual leader of 300 million Orthodox.

[IPC]

Dear simplygermain,

The Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon, and the following councils condemned monophicism. Coptics, Armenian Apostolics, Malankara, Syrian Orthodox and the rest of "oriental orthodox" were condemned as monophicists.

The Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Church among other things, preaches the heresy of monothelism, which is a softened form of monophicism, and by this, they fall under the anathemas of the Ecumenical Councils. The Anglican Church (Episcopal in USA) has gone as far as accepting homosexuality and ordaining homosexuals (The Episcopal Bishop of Boston is a lesbian activist), and elaborating apologetics for homosexuality.

The leadership of "World Orthodoxy" violating the resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, have recognized the Oriental Orthodox and Catholic Churches, as part of the "same church" calling the resolutions of the ecumenical councils and the mutual estrangement as simple "misunderstandings" due politics, and geographical isolation!

This is a direct attack against one of the most important believes of the Orthodox Church, in which the 7 Ecumenical Councils were guided by the Holy Spirit. The resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, including the anathemas, are confirmed year by year in the Sunday of Orthodoxy.

[IPC]

Very Reverend Fr Ambrose,

This is not the appropriate thread to discuss the Church I am in. I already spoke extensively about Her and us in another thread months ago, and you well know that.

My intention in saying God lets the thorns grow among the wheat, is to illustrate how God, in His great mercy, lets all kind of people to themselves, waiting for their repentance, and if that doesn't happen, in due time, He comes to throw the thorns to eternal fire. The justice is His, and we should not act as avengers, "punishing" people, and getting even when someone does something evil to us.

You were once my brother in Christ Father, you were a true russian orthodox christian before Met Laurus robbed you from the Church to throw you into the Moscow Patriarchate, and I have hope that some day, you come back.

I have not condemned anyone, first of all, numbers are deceitful, and do not validate any religion as salvific.

Do you know how many millions are in the Roman Catholic Church?

Now from those numbers, members of the Roman Catholic and Moscow Patriarchate. Who outnumbers who? Then, is the RCC legitimate and rightly showing the path of salvation because it's the largest? So we should accept the lies of the vatican, and it's church in order not to condemn the millions of catholics round the globe?

Since when majority saves? Since when majority determins what's true? Oh wait a moment, that sounds familiar, errm revolutionary liberal thought? Right! That's democracy! So that's why many religious leaders are craving for members! The more members they have, the more real their religion is? ohhhhhh I see.

Numbers mean nothing. How many have left the MP and the RCC and are still listed as members? How many have a godly life? How many truly believe in God?

The RCC and the Moscow Patriarchate try to legimitize themselves by pietism, mounting spectacular services, where their people sing prayers for hours, bow and do postrations to the ground, or kneel for extended periods of time, etc.

But this does not validate them neither. Hinduists, Buddhists, and other religions also have their spectacular and extenuating disciplines.

Not because a religious body uses externals such as reading the bible (or a sacred book in case of non christians), burning incense, using icons or statues, and the like, we are going to imagine they are good for salvation.

What matters is that the Word of God, which is Christ Himself, is preached whole and without changes, He is the only Saviour, without Him, we work to no avail.

He is real, and He revealed the Truth, salvation is a reality, and it's reached by knowing the truth, not by imaginary theories and lies.

[Irish Hermit]

The leadership of "World Orthodoxy" violating the resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, have recognized the .... Catholic Churches, as part of the "same church"

Dear IPC,

You dole out untruths by the bucketful. 

Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of Sourozh expressed his response to the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.   What he said was wortyh noting since he was a Russian hierarch who had actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics. 

He was unable to attend the annual Synod in Moscow and he made a written report to the Patriarch and Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church and in part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:

Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.

[simplygermain]

Dear simplygermain,

The Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon, and the following councils condemned monophicism. Coptics, Armenian Apostolics, Malankara, Syrian Orthodox and the rest of "oriental orthodox" were condemned as monophicists.The Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Church among other things, preaches the heresy of monothelism, which is a softened form of monophicism, and by this, they fall under the anathemas of the Ecumenical Councils. The Anglican Church (Episcopal in USA) has gone as far as accepting homosexuality and ordaining homosexuals (The Episcopal Bishop of Boston is a lesbian activist), and elaborating apologetics for homosexuality.The leadership of "World Orthodoxy" violating the resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, have recognized the Oriental Orthodox and Catholic Churches, as part of the "same church" calling the resolutions of the ecumenical councils and the mutual estrangement as simple "misunderstandings" due politics, and geographical isolation! This is a direct attack against one of the most important believes of the Orthodox Church, in which the 7 Ecumenical Councils were guided by the Holy Spirit. The resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, including the anathemas, are confirmed year by year in the Sunday of Orthodoxy.

Have you ever studied OO or asked the questions directly of an OOChristian? Maybe even an ETOChristian? Have you personally met and discussed with an Anglican?

[Irish Hermit]

Dear IPC,

In your "zeal without knowledge" you go so far as to condemn to damnation all the population of the world except those who belong to your anonymous and unlocatable "Russian Zarist Church."  Well, you may place your hope of salvation in the Russian Tsar  - but hear the genuine voice of Orthodoxy, from the great and holy confessor of the faith Metropolitan Philaret of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  The mere fact that you are so staunchly opposed to his teaching of salvation demonstrates that you and the other sawdust groups have no inheritance in his Church the true ROCOR. 

Will the Non-Orthodox Be Saved?
Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed Memory (+1985)

It is self-evident, however, that sincere Christians who areRoman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth. The Greek word for “heresy” is derived from the word for “choice” and inherently implies conscious, willful rejection or opposition to the Divine Truth manifest in the Orthodox Church. They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox. In their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, “who desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4) and “who enlightens every man born into the world” (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation in His own way.

http://www.saintseraphim.com/information/content/pdf/WillHeterodoxBeSaved.pdf

[IPC]

MP to Work to Remove “Obstacles” to the Pope of Rome Meeting Patriarch Kirill according to Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev


"A senior Russian church official said on Friday that the Patriarchate of Moscow and all Russia will work to remove “obstacles” to a meeting between its new leader and the Pope of Rome. Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev of Vienna and Austria, the MP Representative to the European International Institutions, said during a Moscow-Paris TV link devoted to the Church’s policies under Patriarch Kirill, “Our objective is to organise the meeting as soon as possible”. However, he said that the problems that had made the meeting impossible under the late Patriarch Aleksei II remained unsettled, including attempts by Roman Catholics to expand in the former Soviet Union at the expense of the Orthodox Church and “the difficult situation in Ukraine.

Relations between the Orthodox and Catholic branches of Christianity were strained in recent years as the MP accused the Vatican of stepping up efforts to convert believers in what it calls its canonical territory since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The MP also accused Uniate Catholics, loyal to the Vatican, but, using an Orthodox-style liturgy, of spreading beyond the Western Ukraine into the eastern Ukraine and Russia. Aleksei II refused to meet with then-Pope John Paul II, and said the disputes should be resolved before a historic meeting with the current Catholic Church leader, Pope Benedict XVI."

Source: Novosti http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090213/120127238.html


From here, Fr Ambrose, we can see the MP still disseminates the false notion of the Catholic Church and the MP as two branches of christianity. This is blatant heresy!

We are talking about religions and not about individuals. I stressed out also that religious leaders, call them Dalai Lama, Pope, Patriarch, Pastors and the like who know exactly what they are doing, and consciously, preach heresies and false doctrines, despite serious and direct warnings.

Such is the case of Met Laurus, who well knew the stand of ROCOR, and lied to our faces. In 2002 in the publication of "Orthodox Life" (in Russian) there was in the front page the title "There is no union with the MP" while he was already negociating that union with the Russian President and the Patriarch, and was no longer guided by the Lord, but by his own personal interests. When confronted with the fact "you told us there was no union, and there was", he was always evasive, he simply said "it's the will of God" or "You don't understand what's going on", and in the worst cases "If you don't like what we do, leave, but do it quietly, and by your own free will". This is pure malice, and deliberate introduction of a new doctrine, from a person with a totally burnt conscience. Psychopath or posessed? I go for the last one.

[Irish Hermit]

From here, Fr Ambrose, we can see the MP still disseminates the false notion of the Catholic Church and the MP as two branches of christianity. This is blatant heresy!

We are talking about religions and not about individuals.I

In that case you should become acquainted with the official position of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Praise God, that the Russian Church is protected from the Branch Theory by the formal rejection of it by the Bishops of the Church of Russia in 2000 AD


REJECTION OF THE BRANCH THEORY BY THE RUSSIAN CHURCH:
**********************************************

2.5. "The so-called "branch theory", which is connected with the conception referred to above and asserts the normal and even providential nature of Christianity existing in the form of particular "branches", is also totally unacceptable."

"Basic Principles of the Attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church Toward the Other Christian Confessions"

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ecumenical/roc_other_christian_confessions.htm

IPC, it is obvious you have not read this document.  Please have a look at it and it will help you stop spreading misinformation about the teaching of the Russian Orthodox Church and ecumenism.

[Ebor]

The Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Church among other things, preaches the heresy of monothelism

Would you please give some examples or source material on this claim?  I am unaware of any such belief.

The Episcopal Bishop of Boston is a lesbian activist

The Diocesan Bishop of the Episcopalian diocese of Massachusetts, which includes the city of Boston, is the Right Reverend M. Thomas Shaw, SSJE, that is he is a life professed member of the Society of St. John the Evangelist.  He is the one in charge.  Will you please explain how he is a "lesbian activist"?   Bishop Shaw has two Suffragan, that is Assisting Bishops: the Right Reverend Roy F. Cederholm and the Right Reverend Gayle Harris. Both are married and long ago I met Bishop Harris' husband who was also a priest.

Which of these clerics did you mean please?

Also, I asked in a post further up stream if you would please cite the Scripture passages that you were thinking of when you made certain statements about things Our Lord said.  Would you please  let us know what they are?  Thank you in advance.

Ebor

[Irish Hermit]

Such is the case of Met Laurus, ..... Psychopath or posessed? I go for the last one.

Thanks for the laugh.  I am sure we are all eager to accept the psychoanalysis of our late Metropolitan Laurus (Memory Eternal) from a person who is so fearful that he cloaks himself in secrecy, claims to belong to a probably non-existent Church (I mean, "The Russian Zarist Church"!!) and is afraid to reveal the name of his bishop in case the Forum members criticise him.  Go, lionheart!

[Irish Hermit]

This is not the appropriate thread to discuss the Church I am in.

Looking now at the title of this thread, it seems appropriate.  I am quite interested as a student of religions to learn more about one which is focused on veneration of the Russian Zar.

I already spoke extensively about Her and us in another thread months ago, and you well know that.

I cannot believe that I missed your message.  Any chance of pointing it out?

[IPC]

Dear Ebor,

Monothelitism (monothelism) is a derivate of monophycism, heresy in the area of Christology in which it's falsely taught that Christ's two natures, human and divine, can be divided. While monophycism started with the physical aspect, mistakenly preaching that Christ's divine nature swallowed up and eliminated the human nature, monothelitism mistakenly preaches that Christ had only the divine will. Saint Maximus the Confessor wrote extensively about it.

The right teaching is that Christ is the One and Undivisable God, who became man, and thus, incorporated to Himself the human nature in it's fullness, both body, and will, to save mankind in all it's fullness, fixing everything destroyed by the enemy of salvation.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Church in their christology, follow the monothelistic views, and totally deny the human will of Christ, to such an extent, that they see Christ as deprived of His own will, and a simple offering to appease an angry god.

I was talking about the head of the Episcopalian diocese of Massachusetts, the Right Reverend M. Thomas Shaw, SSJE. He is a lesbian and gay activist because he affirms lesbian priests, which according to him "enrich" the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts. He also has stated things like "we reject the exclusion of any person from holy orders on the basis of sexual orientation", as we can see in this article posted on the Boston Globe: http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/stories3/121002_oped.htm

Be patient with scriptural reference, as I need to look it up, cross reference it with the most popular modern versions, and then post it here. I can't rush this kind of things.

[simplygermain]

Dear simplygermain,

The Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon, and the following councils condemned monophicism. Coptics, Armenian Apostolics, Malankara, Syrian Orthodox and the rest of "oriental orthodox" were condemned as monophicists.The Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Church among other things, preaches the heresy of monothelism, which is a softened form of monophicism, and by this, they fall under the anathemas of the Ecumenical Councils. The Anglican Church (Episcopal in USA) has gone as far as accepting homosexuality and ordaining homosexuals (The Episcopal Bishop of Boston is a lesbian activist), and elaborating apologetics for homosexuality.The leadership of "World Orthodoxy" violating the resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, have recognized the Oriental Orthodox and Catholic Churches, as part of the "same church" calling the resolutions of the ecumenical councils and the mutual estrangement as simple "misunderstandings" due politics, and geographical isolation! This is a direct attack against one of the most important believes of the Orthodox Church, in which the 7 Ecumenical Councils were guided by the Holy Spirit. The resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, including the anathemas, are confirmed year by year in the Sunday of Orthodoxy.

Have you ever studied OO or asked the questions directly of an OOChristian? Maybe even an ETOChristian? Have you personally met and discussed with an Anglican?

Should I take a number? ...Oh look I'm #64! Fr. Ambrose, aren't you #63 !?

[Irish Hermit]

Such is the case of Met Laurus.....  This is pure malice, and deliberate introduction of a new doctrine, from a person with a totally burnt conscience. Psychopath or posessed? I go for the last one.

Ukase 362

Dear IPC,

A study of Ukase 362 should help clarify the confusion and help you understand the situation of Metropolitan Laurus and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enuk_ukaz362.html


Ukase 362 was issued in 1920 by Patriarch Saint Tikhon and the Synod of the Russian Church.

Ukase 362 authorises those bishops who are cut off from communication with Moscow by the Soviet regime to come together and form what the Ukase calls "temporary higher church administrations."

Ukase 362 is the canonical basis for the existence of the Russian Church Abroad, for the American Metropolia-now OCA, and for the Russian Exarchate in Paris.

There is an important stipulation in Ukase 362.  Patriarch Saint Tikhon is clear that these temporary church administrations may exist for as long as the Soviet powers made communication with Moscow and the Patriarch impossible.

In other words the existence of these temporary administrations have a "use by date" built into them by the Ukase of Saint Tikhon.

Metropolitan Laurus and the bishops of the Russian Church Abroad were obliged to give due thought to this stipulation and, having judged that communication was no longer hindered, they were obliged by the Ukase to enter into communication again with the Church in Moscow.

So please do not call Metropolitan Laurus a psychopath or possessed.  He was following the instructions of Ukase 362 formulated by Saint Tikhon.

You say you were a member of the Russian Church Abroad?  Were you unaware of Ukase 362 and its contents?

[Ebor]

IPC

I know what monothelism/monothelitism is.  You have asserted that the Episcopalian/Anglicans "preach" it.  Will you please give some examples from Anglican sources that you think support this claim?  Since you said that the RCs also "preach" it, do you have any evidence from RC sources also?

Thank you for clarifying what you meant regarding the Bishop of Massachusetts.

If one is stating that Jesus Christ said something, one might think that it would be simple to find it in one of the four Gospels. Why would it need to be cross-referenced with "the most popular modern versions" please? 

Ebor

[simplygermain]

Yes, while your at it with Ebor, could you please tell me how you can know what the Oriental Orthodox believe other than information regarding the Schism which seperated the Church? I'm quite curious because I've had several very informative conversations with Oriental Orthodox on the subject of Monophysitism. There is no way that the ETOC or Coptic Church believe in this. The ETOC even placed a confession of faith on their website in regards to this attack. Here - http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/dogma/faith.html#incarnation

While it is true that Many Monophysite Priests ran to the North African desert after the Council, for safety because they were being killed, the belief did not infiltrate all Oriental Orthodox churches everywhere nor did it survive to become the main concept on which all OOChristians base their faith. Does not false doctrine wither and die away? All that remains in Christs Holy Church is the Truth. And yes I am aware that there are some who still beleive in monophysitism, but these are not the majority I can assure you.
Frankly, your narrow-mindedness prevents you from seeing how things can change. You are stuck in the past my friend and I will pray for you. 

[Douglas]

Frankly, your narrow-mindedness prevents you from seeing how things can change. You are stuck in the past my friend and I will pray for you. 

Stuck in the past or enamored with narrow-minded rigidity. It's my contention that there are those among us who find safety in living in a very narrow, blinkered existence. It provides them with the security they crave: we are right and all the rest are wrong. We are the only ones who have kept the true faith (hmm... seems as though I read this some place in the Old Testament and the Lord had to enlighten that self-deluded prophet). I commend your willingness to pray for this person but short of a miracle (which is always possible), I doubt it will have any effect. It's a psychological thingie that is at work here. 

[simplygermain]

I commend your willingness to pray for this person but short of a miracle (which is always possible), I doubt it will have any effect. It's a psychological thingie that is at work here. 

Nothing that one "earth-shattering" experience can't solve. And I know just the God-Man who does that sort of thing. +++

[simplygermain]

In defense of the people of other religions of the world, and as a reproach to IPC, I am posting this for clarity to give examples of what a flip-flopping, arguementative, fanatical attitude looks like from someone who does not speak for the Orthodox church but is a representative of a schismatic sect called the Zarist Russian Church or posing as the Russian "True" Orthodox Church - Abroad:

The Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Church among other things, preaches the heresy of monothelism

.The Episcopal Bishop of Boston is a lesbian activist

.The leadership of "World Orthodoxy" violating the resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, have recognized the .... Catholic Churches, as part of the "same church"

.The Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Church in their christology, follow the monothelistic views, and totally deny the human will of Christ, to such an extent, that they see Christ as deprived of His own will, and a simple offering to appease an angry god.

.(The Episcopal Bishop of Boston is a Lesbian Activist)
.I was talking about the head of the Episcopalian diocese of Massachusetts, the Right Reverend M. Thomas Shaw, SSJE.

.Be patient with scriptural reference, as I need to look it up, cross reference it with the most popular modern versions, and then post it here. I can't rush this kind of things.

Psychopath or possed? I go for the last one.

Having made these claims and slanders, he also hides in secret those things which are, if he is in Christianity, Sacraments for Salvation for all mankind. Who will be saved? According to this man, only those who will find his church.

Forgive me, I could not go back further with these quotes. But I think the point is made. I pray that no one is led to believe that The Orthodox Church takes this stance. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen+++

[ialmisry]

In defense of the people of other religions of the world, and as a reproach to IPC, I am posting this for clarity to give examples of what a flip-flopping, arguementative, fanatical attitude looks like from someone who does not speak for the Orthodox church but is a representative of a schismatic sect called the Zarist Russian Church or posing as the Russian "True" Orthodox Church - Abroad:

The Roman Catholic Church, and the Anglican Church among other things, preaches the heresy of monothelism

.The Episcopal Bishop of Boston is a lesbian activist

.The leadership of "World Orthodoxy" violating the resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils, have recognized the .... Catholic Churches, as part of the "same church"

.The Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Church in their christology, follow the monothelistic views, and totally deny the human will of Christ, to such an extent, that they see Christ as deprived of His own will, and a simple offering to appease an angry god.

.(The Episcopal Bishop of Boston is a Lesbian Activist)
.I was talking about the head of the Episcopalian diocese of Massachusetts, the Right Reverend M. Thomas Shaw, SSJE.

.Be patient with scriptural reference, as I need to look it up, cross reference it with the most popular modern versions, and then post it here. I can't rush this kind of things.

Psychopath or possed? I go for the last one.

Having made these claims and slanders, he also hides in secret those things which are, if he is in Christianity, Sacraments for Salvation for all mankind. Who will be saved? According to this man, only those who will find his church.

Forgive me, I could not go back further with these quotes. But I think the point is made. I pray that no one is led to believe that The Orthodox Church takes this stance. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen+++

He can't even spell "Czarist" right. And I'm going to take his word on what is the True Orthodox Church, you know, the one he is hiding under a bushel.

[simplygermain]

True, why didn't I notice that before. Bad spelling is one of my biggest pet-peeves. I can't even stand when I do it! I have been corrected.

[LBK]

Tsarist is the phonetic spelling, Czarist is the Eastern European spelling, and Zarist is the German spelling. The letter Z is pronounced ts in German.

[ialmisry]

Tsarist is the phonetic spelling, Czarist is the Eastern European spelling, and Zarist is the German spelling. The letter Z is pronounced ts in German.

And we are writing in what....?

I wasn't refering to simplygermain, btw, but IPC and his RZC.

[simplygermain]

I got the insinuation, Cz vs. Z in RZC - I though it was funny.  But I wanted to appease LBK, so I scribbled my comment. You know, we're getting into a silly conversation.

[mike]

Czarist is the Eastern European spelling,

No. In Slavic languages cz is your ch It will be spelled like Carist.

You know, we're getting into a silly conversation.

we've been getting since yesterday

[LBK]

I got the insinuation, Cz vs. Z in RZC - I though it was funny.  But I wanted to appease LBK, so I scribbled my comment. You know, we're getting into a silly conversation.

Appease me? Hey, I don't bite (at least, not unless I really have to!  ). But I completely agree this is truly a silly thread (I wouldn't call it a conversation, given IPC's continued reluctance to come clean about his "jurisdiction". 

[simplygermain]

Its kind of like a polititician getting up on the soap box, only to spout his ideas, then getting off any time we ask him what he thinks about "x". He's a true politician, goes everywhere but directly to the point.

[Irish Hermit]

given IPC's continued reluctance to come clean about his "jurisdiction". 

I was talking, by e-mail, with a friend in Irkutsk who makes it his interest to follow dissident religious groups in Russia.  He has not heard of the Russian Zarist Church.

He mentioned that he thinks that Albania has an "Albanian Zogist Church" and he wondered if they were some sort of sister organisations.

[Gkterra]

Its kind of like a polititician getting up on the soap box, only to spout his ideas, then getting off any time we ask him what he thinks about "x". He's a true politician, goes everywhere but directly to the point.

My thought's as well, like most politicians, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, are three different things, and I'm afraid that IPC truly believes he say's nothing but the truth.

[Eugenio]

Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"

Perhaps people in the Tsarist Church worship the Golden Pigeon? 

[Jetavan]

πάντες οἱ θεοὶ τῶν ἐθνῶν δαιμόνια
列邦諸神皆邪魔
(All the gods of nations demons)

Yeah, but what exactly is a "daimon"?

Hesiod relates how the men of the Golden Age were transmuted into daimones by the will of Zeus, to serve as ineffable guardians of mortals, whom they might serve by their benevolence. [4] In similar ways, the daimon of a venerated hero or a founder figure, located in one place by the construction of a shrine rather than left unburied to wander, would confer good fortune and protection on those who stopped to offer respect. Daemones were not considered evil.

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