Question about Copes

[samkim]

Okay, so I notice that there are two different kinds of copes, one that just looks like a cape, and another kind with a "stiff neck," sort of like a Russian Phelonion. Are they distinguished with any terminology? What are "stiff-necked" copes actually called? I notice many Anglicans use the "stiff-necked" ones, while the flat ones seem more common with Roman Catholic churchmen.

[Ionnis]

Are you thinking of the chasuble and the cope?  The cope oftentimes has a stiff neck, whereas the chasuble lays flat.  Roman Catholic priests wear the chasuble during the mass.  Anglicans priests sometimes wear the cope instead of the chasuble during the mass, which is not allowed for according to Roman rubrics.  I have seen some flat copes, but from what I understand, those are relatively new.  I think they are ugly.  Sorry if I didn't answer your question.

[Keble]

Working from Beryl Dean here, one of the more important vestment designers of the last century: At the end of the middle ages the cope unfolded into a semicircle and the orphreys (that is, the bands along the front edges) became increasingly wide and stiff. The result of forcing this into the shape of a cloak was a conical garment which the bishop stood inside almost like a teepee. At the same time the hood unfolded into a decorative flap. People who want to assert Tradition prefer that form, but the tendency has been for it to revert to being properly cloak-shaped and for the hood to be formed as such.

The chasuble is different: it is always formed with a hole in the center for the head. Again, after the middle ages the sides of the chasuble tended to disappear to free the arms for elevations, so that you ended up with the "fiddleback" form with a rectangle on the back and a cutaway shape on the front. The more modern form evolved separately from the Gothic form (which was indeed more or less conical but which was joined up the front, unlike the cope) and which tended to flatten out until it became a flat circle. There are names for the different chasuble forms, but not for the copes.

[samkim]

Are you thinking of the chasuble and the cope?  The cope oftentimes has a stiff neck, whereas the chasuble lays flat.  Roman Catholic priests wear the chasuble during the mass.  Anglicans priests sometimes wear the cope instead of the chasuble during the mass, which is not allowed for according to Roman rubrics.  I have seen some flat copes, but from what I understand, those are relatively new.  I think they are ugly.  Sorry if I didn't answer your question.

No, I know what chasubles are. I'm talking about copes.

"Stiff-necked"


Flat:

[samkim]

Working from Beryl Dean here, one of the more important vestment designers of the last century: At the end of the middle ages the cope unfolded into a semicircle and the orphreys (that is, the bands along the front edges) became increasingly wide and stiff. The result of forcing this into the shape of a cloak was a conical garment which the bishop stood inside almost like a teepee. At the same time the hood unfolded into a decorative flap. People who want to assert Tradition prefer that form, but the tendency has been for it to revert to being properly cloak-shaped and for the hood to be formed as such.

The chasuble is different: it is always formed with a hole in the center for the head. Again, after the middle ages the sides of the chasuble tended to disappear to free the arms for elevations, so that you ended up with the "fiddleback" form with a rectangle on the back and a cutaway shape on the front. The more modern form evolved separately from the Gothic form (which was indeed more or less conical but which was joined up the front, unlike the cope) and which tended to flatten out until it became a flat circle. There are names for the different chasuble forms, but not for the copes.

I wonder why the chasuble's/phelonion's equivalent vestment among the Syrians and Armenians resembles more a cope.

[Shanghaiski]

Working from Beryl Dean here, one of the more important vestment designers of the last century: At the end of the middle ages the cope unfolded into a semicircle and the orphreys (that is, the bands along the front edges) became increasingly wide and stiff. The result of forcing this into the shape of a cloak was a conical garment which the bishop stood inside almost like a teepee. At the same time the hood unfolded into a decorative flap. People who want to assert Tradition prefer that form, but the tendency has been for it to revert to being properly cloak-shaped and for the hood to be formed as such.

The chasuble is different: it is always formed with a hole in the center for the head. Again, after the middle ages the sides of the chasuble tended to disappear to free the arms for elevations, so that you ended up with the "fiddleback" form with a rectangle on the back and a cutaway shape on the front. The more modern form evolved separately from the Gothic form (which was indeed more or less conical but which was joined up the front, unlike the cope) and which tended to flatten out until it became a flat circle. There are names for the different chasuble forms, but not for the copes.

I wonder why the chasuble's/phelonion's equivalent vestment among the Syrians and Armenians resembles more a cope.

I love Syrian vestments!

[stashko]

Why is the syrian/indian priest wearing a different stole that resembles a latin one, and the other priests on his right and left are wearing the Orthodox Looking One.......

[samkim]

Why is the syrian/indian priest wearing a different stole that resembles a latin one, and the other priests on his right and left are wearing the Orthodox Looking One.......

I think I accidentally found a picture of a Syriac Catholic priest instead of Syriac Orthodox. No matter, his phayno (phelonion/chasuble/cope) is the same as a Syriac Orthodox phayno.

[Keble]

Samkin, of the two examples you show the top one would be considered a more traditionalist version, the second more modern in form. I found one place describing the modern cut as "French" but I think they are making this term up, as none of the others use it that I can see.

[Dewi Sant]

Perhaps, like Russia, Britain is colder than Rome and it is more comfortable for the priest to have the extra warmth round the neck. Just a theory.

Of course, the priest ought to change into a chasuble before Mass.
I do have to wonder therefore quite why the cope is worn in church at all, surely it is an outdoor vestment.

[Salpy]

Welcome to the forum!

[Dewi Sant]

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you!   

So pleased to see a forum(ette) dedicated to the Western Rite.

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