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Author Topic: Regional Episcopal Assemblies in the Diaspora: Decision and Constitution  (Read 10080 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 04, 2009, 06:36:58 AM »



THE FOURTH PRE-CONCILIAR PAN-ORTHODOX CONFERENCE

The Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate


Chambésy, 6-13 June 2009

 THE ORTHODOX DIASPORA

Decision
 

The Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference was convened by His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, with the consensus of Their Beatitudes the Primates of the Most Holy Orthodox Churches expressed during their Sacred Synaxis at the Phanar in October 2008. The Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference met at the Orthodox Center of Ecumenical Patriarchate in Chambésy, from 6 to 13 June 2009 under the chairmanship of His Eminence Metropolitan John of Pergamon, representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.


This Conference, to which all of the most holy Orthodox Autocephalous Churches were invited and were represented, studied the issue of the canonical organization of the Orthodox Diaspora. Pursuant to article 16 of the Rules of Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conferences, this Conference discussed the relevant documents submitted in 1990 and 1993 by the Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission, amending and approving them as follows:

 

1. a) It is affirmed that is the common will of all of the most holy Orthodox Churches that the problem of the Orthodox Diaspora be resolved as quickly as possible, and that it be organized in accordance with Orthodox ecclesiology, and the canonical tradition and practice of the Orthodox Church.

 

    b) Likewise, it is affirmed that during the present phase it is not possible, for historical and pastoral reasons, for an immediate transition to the strictly canonical order of the Church on this issue, that is, the existence of only one bishop in the same place.  For this reason, the Conference came to the decision to propose the creation of a temporary situation that will prepare the ground for a strictly canonical solution of the problem, based on the principles and guidelines set out below. Of necessity, this preparation will not extend beyond the convening of the future Great and Holy Council of the Orthodox Church, so that it (the Council) can proceed with a canonical solution of the problem.



2. a) This Conference proposes that, for the transitional period where the canonical solution of the issue will be prepared, “Episcopal Assemblies” of all canonically recognized bishops in each region should be created (or founded) in each of the regions defined below. The bishops will continue to be subject to the same canonical jurisdictions to which they are subject today.

    b) These Assemblies will consist of all the bishops in each region who are in canonical communion with all of the most holy Orthodox Churches, and will be chaired by the first among the prelates of the Church of Constantinople and, in the absence of thereof, in accordance with the order of the Diptychs. These Assemblies will have an Executive Committee composed of the first hierarchs of the different jurisdictions that exist in the region.

 

    c) The work and the responsibility of these Episcopal Assemblies will be the concern for manifesting the unity of Orthodoxy, the development of common action of all the Orthodox of each region to address the pastoral needs of Orthodox living in the region, a common representation of all Orthodox vis-à-vis other faiths and the wider society in the region, the cultivation of theological scholarship and ecclesiastical education, etc. Decisions on these subjects will be taken by consensus of the Churches who are represented in the particular Assembly.

 

3.  The regions in which Episcopal Assemblies will be created in a first stage are defined as follows:


i. North America and Central America.

ii. South America.

iii. Australia, New Zealand and Oceania.

iv. Great Britain and Ireland.

v. France.

vi. Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg.

vii. Austria.

viii. Italy and Malta.

ix. Switzerland and Lichtenstein.

x. Germany.

xi. Scandinavian countries (except Finland).

xii. Spain and Portugal.


The Bishops of the Diaspora, living in the Diaspora and possessing parishes in multiple regions, will be members of the Episcopal Assemblies of those regions.

 

4.  These Assemblies, which are formed by the decision of this present Conference, have the responsibility to complete the regulation of their operation in the specifications approved by this Conference, and to apply this regulation as soon as possible, and certainly before the convening of the Great and Holy Council.

 

5.  The Episcopal Assemblies do not deprive the Member Bishops of their administrative competencies and canonical character, nor do they restrict their rights in the Diaspora.  The Episcopal Assemblies aim to form a common position of the Orthodox Church on various issues. In no way does this prevent Members Bishops from remaining responsible to their own Churches, and to express the views of their own Churches to the outside world.

6.  The chairmen of the Episcopal Assemblies convene and preside at all joint meetings of the Bishops of their region (liturgical, pastoral, administrative, etc.). As for matters of a more general concern that require, by the decision of the Assembly of Bishops, a Pan-Orthodox approach, the Assembly’s chairman refers it to the Ecumenical Patriarch for further Pan-Orthodox actions.

 

7.  The Orthodox churches are bound not to advance actions that could hinder the above process for a canonical resolution of the issue of the Diaspora, and to do their utmost to facilitate the work of the Episcopal Assemblies and the restoration of normal canonical order in the Diaspora.


† John of Pergamon, Chairman
† Sergios of Good Hope
† John in Western and Central Europe
† Hesychios of Capitolia
† Hilarion of Volokolamsk
† Irenaeus of Batschka
† Irenaeus of Oltenia
† Neophytos of Roussis
† Gerasimos of Zoukdidi and Tsaisi
† George of Paphos
† Chrysostom of Peristerion
† George of Siemiatise
† John of Korytsa
† Tikhon of Komarno
† Jeremias of Switzerland, Secretary

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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2009, 06:41:22 AM »


THE FOURTH PRE-CONCILIAR PAN-ORTHODOX CONFERENCE

 The Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate

Chambésy, 6-13 June 2009

 Decision

 
RULES OF OPERATION  OF EPISCOPAL ASSEMBLIES
IN THE ORTHODOX DIASPORA


 

Article 1.

 
1.   All Orthodox Bishops of each region, from those regions defined by the Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference, who are in canonical communion with all the local Autocephalous Orthodox Churches, form each Episcopal Assembly.


2.  Those Orthodox Bishops who do not reside in the region, but who have pastoral ministry in parishes in the Region, are also members of the Episcopal Assembly.

 
3. Retired Bishops and Bishops visiting the Region, inasmuch as they meet the requirements of paragraph (1), may be invited to participate in the Assembly, but without voting rights.


Article 2.

The purpose of the Episcopal Assembly is to manifest the unity of the Orthodox Church, to promote collaboration between the churches in all areas of pastoral ministry, and to maintain, preserve and develop the interests of the communities that belong to the canonical Orthodox Bishops of the Region.


Article 3.

The Episcopal Assembly will have an Executive Committee composed of the Primatial Bishops of each of the canonical Churches in the Region.

 
Article 4.

 
1.  The Episcopal Assembly and its Executive Committee will have a Chairman, one or two Vice-Chairmen, a Secretary and a Treasurer, and any other positions of responsibility that the Assembly may designate.

 
2.   The Chairman is ex officio the first among the Bishops of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and, in the absence thereof, in the order of Diptychs. The Chairman of the Episcopal Assembly convenes the meetings thereof, directs its work and presides over its colleagues. Regarding issues that were discussed during the meeting of the Episcopal Assembly, and on which a unanimous decision was reached, the President (or another member of the Episcopal Assembly charged by him), presents the common position of the Orthodox Church in the Region to government, society and to other religious organizations.


3. The Vice-Chairmen are appointed ex officio from the Member Bishops of the Assemblies, from the next ranking Churches, in accordance with the order of the Diptychs of the Orthodox Churches. The Secretary, Treasurer and other positions of responsibility are chosen by the Assembly, and have the possibility not to originate from the ranks of the bishops.
 

Article 5.

1.   The competencies of the Episcopal Assembly are:

a.   to safeguard and contribute to the unity of the Orthodox Church of the Region in its theological, ecclesiological, canonical, spiritual, philanthropic, educational and missionary obligations.

b. The coordination and leadership of activities of common interest in areas of pastoral care, catechesis, liturgical life, religious publishing, mass media, religious education, etc.

c.   Relations with other Christian Churches and other religions.

d.  Anything that entails obligations of the Orthodox Church in Her relations with society and government.

e.   The preparation of a plan to organize the Orthodox of the Region on a canonical basis.



2.   The definition of the scope of these competencies should in no way interfere with the responsibility of each Bishop for his eparchial jurisdiction, or restrict the rights of his Church, including its relations with international agencies, governments, civil society, mass media, other legal undertakings, national and treaty organizations, as well as other religions.


For specific linguistic, educational and pastoral issues of a particular Church, the Episcopal Assembly may also collaborate with the ecclesiastical authority of the Church in question, so that the diversity of national traditions may secure the unity of Orthodoxy in the communion of faith and in the bond of love.


Article 6.

 1.  The Episcopal Assembly receives and records the election of Bishops of the Region, and their reference to the most holy autocephalous Orthodox Churches.

2.  It examines and determines the canonical status of local communities in the Region that have no reference to the most holy autocephalous Orthodox Churches.

3.   It must record every decision relating to clerics promulgated by their bishops, in order that this decision is applied among all the Orthodox Churches in the Region.


Article 7.

1.  The Episcopal Assembly meets once a year, at the invitation of the Chairman. It may meet as often as it is deemed necessary by the Executive Committee, or at the written request that shows cause of one third of the members of the Assembly.

 2. The Executive Committee meets once every three months and whenever necessary at the invitation of the Chairman or at the written request that shows cause of one third of its members.

3.  The invitations to the Assembly, in the absence of exceptional circumstances, are to be sent two months in advance; and for the Executive Committee, one week in advance. They are to be accompanied by the agenda items and related documents.

4.  The agenda must be approved at the first session of the Assembly, and should only be amended by a decision of the members present, be means of an absolute majority of the votes.
 

Article 8.

The quorum for the Executive Committee is two thirds of its members and for the Assembly, an absolute majority of members, including the Chairman.

Article 9.

The work of the Episcopal Assembly is conducted in accordance with the principles of the Orthodox conciliar tradition and is directed by its Chairman, who has the responsibility for supervising the implementation of its decisions.


Article 10.

1.   The decisions of the Episcopal Assembly are taken by consensus.

2.  In matters of more general concern which require, by the decision of the Assembly of Bishops, a Pan-Orthodox approach, the Assembly’s chairman refers it to the Ecumenical Patriarch for further Pan-Orthodox actions.

 

Article 11.

1.   Upon the decision of the Episcopal Assembly, it is possible to form from its members Committees for Liturgical, Pastoral, Financial, Educational, Ecumenical and other issues, chaired by one of the Bishop-Members of the Assembly.

2.  The members of these Committees, clergy or laity, are appointed by the Executive Committee. In addition, advisers and experts may be invited to participate in the Assembly or in the Executive Committee, without voting rights.


Article 12.

1. The Episcopal Assembly may establish its own Internal Regulations in order to supplement and adjust the above provisions, in accordance with the needs of the Region and in respect to the canon law of the Orthodox Church.

 2.  All legal and financial issues relating to the functioning of the Assembly are to be decided in the light of the civil laws of the countries of the Region, in which members of the Assembly exercise their jurisdiction.


Article 13.

The formation of a new Episcopal Assembly, the partition or abolition of an existing Episcopal Assembly, or the merger of two or more of these Assemblies, occurs following the decision of the Synaxis of the Primates of the Orthodox Churches, at the request of a particular Church, or the request of the Chairman of a particular Episcopal Assembly to the Ecumenical Patriarch.

† John of Pergamon, Chairman
† Sergios of Good Hope
† John in Western and Central Europe
† Hesychios of Capitolia
† Hilarion of Volokolamsk
† Irenaeus of Batschka
† Irenaeus of Oltenia
† Neophytos of Roussis
† Gerasimos of Zoukdidi and Tsaisi
† George of Paphos
† Chrysostom of Peristerion
† George of Siemiatise
† John of Korytsa
† Tikhon of Komarno
† Jeremias of Switzerland, Secretary

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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2009, 07:17:23 AM »

So, when are they going to announce the regions?

It will be interesting if Met. Jonah plays along, and if Met. Philip will be in any position to do so, and the reaction of the EP and company.

I understand that although Russia signed, she is already (with good reason) questioning it.
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2009, 07:30:20 AM »

So, when are they going to announce the regions?

Dear Isa,

The regions are given in Item 3 of the first message.

Quote
I understand that although Russia signed, she is already (with good reason) questioning it.

Russia is not happy that the President of each Regional Assembly is ex officio the senior Greek bishop of the region.  However, Russia has agreed to this all the same.
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2009, 08:06:31 AM »

So, when are they going to announce the regions?

Dear Isa,

The regions are given in Item 3 of the first message.

LOL.  Should have had that first cup first.  Clicked on this thread from the bottom, and forgot it takes you to the latest post, and that you number 1 means the first reply. 

So, North and Middle America together, eh?  Well, the OCA could technically take part because she is in "diaspora" in Mexico, technically speaking (Mexico in not within the canonically defined boundaries of the OCA: the OCA operates there on a par with the other jurisdictions, but with seniority, not only from the missionary Archdiocese's work there (including St. Raphael), but also this tid bit
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/Xmexico.html
from the origins of the Mexico Exarchate).  Interesting that they lumped Middle America with North America, as besides bare geography and NAFTA they share little in common as compared with Middle America and South America (i.e. the rest of Latin America).  At least the two largest ethnic diaspora minded "jurisdictions" the Greeks and Antioch see that difference: both have their own jurisdictions seperate North from Middle America.  Going to be interesting to see them lumped together again.

So the rest of Oceania is with AU and NZ?  does that include Hawaii?

I don't see Estonia on the list.  Perhaps that means the time has come for Russia to rectify that situation.

I also don't see anything on Asia, which is under Antioch until it touches the Russian missions in China and Japan.

Interesting how Finland is exempted from the Scandinavian countries.  Why?

Quote
Quote
I understand that although Russia signed, she is already (with good reason) questioning it.

Russia is not happy that the President of each Regional Assembly is ex officio the senior Greek bishop of the region.  However, Russia has agreed to this all the same.

Let's see if she goes quietly....
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2009, 08:28:32 AM »



THE FOURTH PRE-CONCILIAR PAN-ORTHODOX CONFERENCE

The Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate


Chambésy, 6-13 June 2009

 THE ORTHODOX DIASPORA

Decision
 

The Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference was convened by His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, with the consensus of Their Beatitudes the Primates of the Most Holy Orthodox Churches expressed during their Sacred Synaxis at the Phanar in October 2008. The Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference met at the Orthodox Center of Ecumenical Patriarchate in Chambésy, from 6 to 13 June 2009 under the chairmanship of His Eminence Metropolitan John of Pergamon, representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.


This Conference, to which all of the most holy Orthodox Autocephalous Churches were invited and were represented,

False claim: the OCA wasn't invited.

Quote
studied the issue of the canonical organization of the Orthodox Diaspora. Pursuant to article 16 of the Rules of Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conferences, this Conference discussed the relevant documents submitted in 1990 and 1993 by the Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission, amending and approving them as follows:

 

1. a) It is affirmed that is the common will of all of the most holy Orthodox Churches that the problem of the Orthodox Diaspora be resolved as quickly as possible, and that it be organized in accordance with Orthodox ecclesiology, and the canonical tradition and practice of the Orthodox Church.

 

    b) Likewise, it is affirmed that during the present phase it is not possible, for historical and pastoral reasons, for an immediate transition to the strictly canonical order of the Church on this issue, that is, the existence of only one bishop in the same place.  For this reason, the Conference came to the decision to propose the creation of a temporary situation that will prepare the ground for a strictly canonical solution of the problem, based on the principles and guidelines set out below. Of necessity, this preparation will not extend beyond the convening of the future Great and Holy Council of the Orthodox Church, so that it (the Council) can proceed with a canonical solution of the problem.



2. a) This Conference proposes that, for the transitional period where the canonical solution of the issue will be prepared, “Episcopal Assemblies” of all canonically recognized bishops in each region should be created (or founded) in each of the regions defined below. The bishops will continue to be subject to the same canonical jurisdictions to which they are subject today.

    b) These Assemblies will consist of all the bishops in each region who are in canonical communion with all of the most holy Orthodox Churches, and will be chaired by the first among the prelates of the Church of Constantinople and, in the absence of thereof, in accordance with the order of the Diptychs. These Assemblies will have an Executive Committee composed of the first hierarchs of the different jurisdictions that exist in the region.

That is going to be a snag on the first assembly on the list.  A primate there wasn't invited to nor involved in, and hence did not sign, these agreements.


Quote
    c) The work and the responsibility of these Episcopal Assemblies will be

implementing the Phanar's new ecclesiology of the protos of All Orthodoxy (tr.)



Quote
the concern for manifesting the unity of Orthodoxy, the development of common action of all the Orthodox of each region to address the pastoral needs of Orthodox living in the region, a common representation of all Orthodox vis-à-vis other faiths and the wider society in the region, the cultivation of theological scholarship and ecclesiastical education, etc. Decisions on these subjects will be taken by consensus of the Churches who are represented in the particular Assembly.

And what about those not represented?

Quote
3.  The regions in which Episcopal Assemblies will be created in a first stage are defined as follows:


i. North America and Central America.

ii. South America.

iii. Australia, New Zealand and Oceania.

iv. Great Britain and Ireland.

v. France.

vi. Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg.

vii. Austria.

viii. Italy and Malta.

ix. Switzerland and Lichtenstein.

x. Germany.

xi. Scandinavian countries (except Finland).

xii. Spain and Portugal.


The Bishops of the Diaspora, living in the Diaspora and possessing parishes in multiple regions, will be members of the Episcopal Assemblies of those regions.

And those bishops not living in Diaspora in North America?

Does that mean that the OCA bishop of San Francisco will also take part in the Assembly for AU, NZ and Oceania?
http://www.oca.org/CAdioceseAU.asp?SID=8


Quote
4.  These Assemblies, which are formed by the decision of this present Conference, have the responsibility to complete the regulation of their operation in the specifications approved by this Conference, and to apply this regulation as soon as possible, and certainly before the convening of the Great and Holy Council.

Then they should have involved the Church of North America now, shouldn't they?

What does this mean for SCOBA?

Quote
5.  The Episcopal Assemblies do not deprive the Member Bishops of their administrative competencies and canonical character, nor do they restrict their rights in the Diaspora.  The Episcopal Assemblies aim to form a common position of the Orthodox Church on various issues. In no way does this prevent Members Bishops from remaining responsible to their own Churches, and to express the views of their own Churches to the outside world.

Does that include the OCA?


Quote

6.  The chairmen of the Episcopal Assemblies convene and preside at all joint meetings of the Bishops of their region (liturgical, pastoral, administrative, etc.). As for matters of a more general concern that require, by the decision of the Assembly of Bishops, a Pan-Orthodox approach, the Assembly’s chairman refers it to the Ecumenical Patriarch for further Pan-Orthodox actions.

This is basically all this is about.



Quote
7.  The Orthodox churches are bound not to advance actions that could hinder the above process for a canonical resolution of the issue of the Diaspora, and to do their utmost to facilitate the work of the Episcopal Assemblies and the restoration of normal canonical order in the Diaspora.

The Orthodox Church in America is not "bound" to advance actions that promote the above processes to hinder a canonical resolution of the issue of the "Diaspora."



Quote
† John of Pergamon, Chairman
† Sergios of Good Hope
† John in Western and Central Europe
† Hesychios of Capitolia
† Hilarion of Volokolamsk
† Irenaeus of Batschka
† Irenaeus of Oltenia
† Neophytos of Roussis
† Gerasimos of Zoukdidi and Tsaisi
† George of Paphos
† Chrysostom of Peristerion
† George of Siemiatise
† John of Korytsa
† Tikhon of Komarno
† Jeremias of Switzerland, Secretary

Seems no primate signed.  Was that done in Cyprus?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 08:29:33 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2009, 09:50:33 AM »

So, when are they going to announce the regions?

Dear Isa,

The regions are given in Item 3 of the first message.


I don't see Estonia on the list.  Perhaps that means the time has come for Russia to rectify that situation.

I also don't see anything on Asia, which is under Antioch until it touches the Russian missions in China and Japan.

Interesting how Finland is exempted from the Scandinavian countries.  Why?

Quote
Quote
I understand that although Russia signed, she is already (with good reason) questioning it.



Let's see if she goes quietly....

You don't see anything that was part of the Russian Empire back in the day for two reasons:  Russia wouldn't have signed, and except where the EP has taken advantage of nationalism to split the local church, there isn't the problem of parallel jurisdictions.  Except for representation churches, all Orthodox churches in Finland are part of the autonomous Church of Finland. 

Well, except Alaska, but then the EP would have problems with the logical consequences of that.

Similarly for Asia--no parallel jurisdictions--though there some areas are under the EP when they should canonically be under Antioch.

Russia is not happy that the President of each Regional Assembly is ex officio the senior Greek bishop of the region.  However, Russia has agreed to this all the same.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 10:02:03 AM by SbdcnDavid » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2009, 10:44:19 AM »

This solution shows a definate "Eurocentric" bent.  So N. and Mid. America comprise one "region", and Switzerland and Liechstenstein make up another?  Until the United States realizes (along with the rest of the Church) that she is too large a land mass to fit into one Archdiocese/Diocese, our vastness will be used to keep us from autocephaly.  But of course if the Ecumenical Patriarch and the other bishops would have defined these regions according to the Metropolias in N.A.- then there would have been a real outcry.  Yet our Canonical solution in the future may very well be to separate the struggle against phyletism with the aptness of a future autocephalous Church in N.A. comprised of a diversity of Metropolias. 

Have we not seen several times over recently the danger of one Bishoprick in a single city trying to manage such a large land mass as the U.S?  Conversely, it is apparaent that the rest of the country has a difficult time knowing what is taking place at their distant sees.  The only reason why the secular system of this country kind of works is that there are fifty states in one union.  Can you imaging a secular government headed up in Washington DC without fifty states?

Furthermore there are practical reasons for a future Orthodox Church of the Americas that is comprised of a diversity of metropolias. For example, as the Pacific SW increasing takes on an Hispanic identity having a distinct Metropolia there will facilate tending to those churches in a way that a Bishop "under" someone from the NE might not be able to acheive.  Likewise the needs of the Pacific NW are very anglo/asian vs. what is currently taking place in the Midwest rustbelt.  Thus a move toward de-centralization may be most desirous.
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2009, 08:05:35 PM »

So, when are they going to announce the regions?

Dear Isa,

The regions are given in Item 3 of the first message.


I don't see Estonia on the list.  Perhaps that means the time has come for Russia to rectify that situation.

I also don't see anything on Asia, which is under Antioch until it touches the Russian missions in China and Japan.

Interesting how Finland is exempted from the Scandinavian countries.  Why?

Quote
Quote
I understand that although Russia signed, she is already (with good reason) questioning it.



Let's see if she goes quietly....

You don't see anything that was part of the Russian Empire back in the day for two reasons:  Russia wouldn't have signed, and except where the EP has taken advantage of nationalism to split the local church, there isn't the problem of parallel jurisdictions.  Except for representation churches, all Orthodox churches in Finland are part of the autonomous Church of Finland. 

Well, except Alaska, but then the EP would have problems with the logical consequences of that.

Similarly for Asia--no parallel jurisdictions--though there some areas are under the EP when they should canonically be under Antioch.

Russia is not happy that the President of each Regional Assembly is ex officio the senior Greek bishop of the region.  However, Russia has agreed to this all the same.

Like I said, we'll see if she goes quietly.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2009, 08:14:32 PM »

This solution shows a definate "Eurocentric" bent.  So N. and Mid. America comprise one "region", and Switzerland and Liechstenstein make up another?  Until the United States realizes (along with the rest of the Church) that she is too large a land mass to fit into one Archdiocese/Diocese, our vastness will be used to keep us from autocephaly.  But of course if the Ecumenical Patriarch and the other bishops would have defined these regions according to the Metropolias in N.A.- then there would have been a real outcry.  Yet our Canonical solution in the future may very well be to separate the struggle against phyletism with the aptness of a future autocephalous Church in N.A. comprised of a diversity of Metropolias. 

Have we not seen several times over recently the danger of one Bishoprick in a single city trying to manage such a large land mass as the U.S?  Conversely, it is apparaent that the rest of the country has a difficult time knowing what is taking place at their distant sees.  The only reason why the secular system of this country kind of works is that there are fifty states in one union.  Can you imaging a secular government headed up in Washington DC without fifty states?

Furthermore there are practical reasons for a future Orthodox Church of the Americas that is comprised of a diversity of metropolias. For example, as the Pacific SW increasing takes on an Hispanic identity having a distinct Metropolia there will facilate tending to those churches in a way that a Bishop "under" someone from the NE might not be able to acheive.  Likewise the needs of the Pacific NW are very anglo/asian vs. what is currently taking place in the Midwest rustbelt.  Thus a move toward de-centralization may be most desirous.



I wonder what a view from the Phanar looks like.

On a related note, interesting how Met. Jonah is leaving New York to Archb. Demtrios and Met. Philip for Washington D.C.
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 12:06:09 AM »

Removed- message placed in this thread in error
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2009, 05:40:44 PM »

Was that you, Irish Hermit, who translated it from Russian?
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2009, 05:45:04 PM »

Was that you, Irish Hermit, who translated it from Russian?

No.  It was not translated from Russian but from Greek and the translation was supplied by the Vicar General of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in this country.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2009, 06:25:00 PM »

To what country? USA? New Zealand?
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2009, 06:32:06 PM »

To what country? USA? New Zealand?

I live at  41°17′20″ South and  174°46′38″ East

New Zealand  Grin laugh
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2009, 11:04:37 PM »

Article 5.
1.   e.   The preparation of a plan to organize the Orthodox of the Region on a canonical basis.
Quote
Article 6.
2.  It examines and determines the canonical status of local communities in the Region that have no reference to the most holy autocephalous Orthodox Churches.

These two items are the ones that have caught my attention. I am very happy to see a mandate for a plan to be created to bring us in to canonical normality.

Item 2 from Article 6 is the one I find most interesting and having the greatest impact on the OCA. If the OCA is recognized as being autocephalous by this assembly then they are last on the diptychs and are marginalized by this assembly. On the other hand if they decide to play the Russian card are they being faithful to their mantra of the past 30 years. There is always the possibility that the assembly denies that the OCA has any canonical status...
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2009, 11:53:27 PM »

Article 5.
1.   e.   The preparation of a plan to organize the Orthodox of the Region on a canonical basis.
Quote
Article 6.
2.  It examines and determines the canonical status of local communities in the Region that have no reference to the most holy autocephalous Orthodox Churches.

These two items are the ones that have caught my attention. I am very happy to see a mandate for a plan to be created to bring us in to canonical normality.

Item 2 from Article 6 is the one I find most interesting and having the greatest impact on the OCA. If the OCA is recognized as being autocephalous by this assembly then they are last on the diptychs and are marginalized by this assembly. On the other hand if they decide to play the Russian card are they being faithful to their mantra of the past 30 years. There is always the possibility that the assembly denies that the OCA has any canonical status...


....or the OCA declines to play along with the farce, and the reform kick it has started snow balls.

I was off at the OCA's consecration of their-our-latest bishop.  Interesting to see +Herman and +Theodosius there. Black sheep, but still invited to the family gatherings because, well, they are family.  But in no position to do harm.  Came back this Sunday to find out about the threat against my priest and my bishop.  My priest was amused about the threat against him, not about the one against the bishop. I was amused by neither, (nor the one against a leading member of our parish) and neither as it turns out were the Federal Authorities.

Drug lords, fraud, threats, sex felons, yes it's going to be an interesting convention next week. And now that the secular authorities (i.e. the FBI) have had to step in, we can be assured that the issues of the books etc. is going to come up.

And of course the problem is that with the new assemblies, it is going to be harder to cover up (said convicted sex felon will now be back in the same assembly as before, so the transfer down south isnt' going to "solve" the problem).  And when the reform juggernaut stomps through the SRAOCANA, that will leave only one major jurisdiciton which hasn't cleaned house.

Accountability is coming to this corner of the "Diaspora." The EP had better reconcile himself to that fact.

Article 5.

1.   The competencies of the Episcopal Assembly are:

d.  Anything that entails obligations of the Orthodox Church in Her relations with society and government.

2.   The definition of the scope of these competencies should in no way interfere with the responsibility of each Bishop for his eparchial jurisdiction, or restrict the rights of his Church, including its relations with international agencies, governments, civil society, mass media, other legal undertakings, national and treaty organizations, as well as other religions.

Article 12.
 2.  All legal and financial issues relating to the functioning of the Assembly are to be decided in the light of the civil laws of the countries of the Region, in which members of the Assembly exercise their jurisdiction.

Yes, interesting indeed.


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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2009, 08:03:38 AM »

The 4th Pan-Orthodox Pre-Council Conference completed its work
 
The 4th Pan-Orthodox Pre-Council Conference, which took place at the Patriarchate of Constantinople’s Orthodox Centre in Chambesy near Geneva, completed its work on 12 June 2009. The delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church led by Archpriest Hilarion of Volokolamsk, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate’s department for external church relations, included Archbishop Mark of Berlin, Germany and Great Britain, Russian Church Outside Russia and Archpriest Nikolay Balashov, DECR vice-chairman.
 
The conference was chaired by Metropolitan John of Pergamon. Metropolitan Jeremiah of Switzerland, Patriarchate of Constantinople, acted as its secretary. It was attended by delegations from the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Georgia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria as well as from the Orthodox Churches of Cyprus, Greece, Albania, Poland, Czech Lands and Slovakia. They were led by their hierarchs.
 
His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia addressed a message of greetings to the conference.
 
As had been agreed by primates and representatives of Local Orthodox Churches at their meeting in October 2008 at the Phanar and reaffirmed by subsequent correspondence, the 4th Conference focused on the canonical order of the Orthodox diaspora. This decision on the agenda was made by the participants in the beginning of their work. The rest of the agenda items for Pan-Orthodox Pre-Council Conferences, including a procedure for declaring authocephaly and autonomy and the diptych order, will be considered in the sessions to follow the preparatory work to be done by the Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission.
 
The participants considered documents prepared by the Inter-Orthodox Preparatory Commission at its meetings on 10-17 November 1990 and 7-13 November 1993 and the conference of canon law experts that took place on 9-14 April 2009 in Chambesy. The documents were clarified and amended by consensus.
 
The conference agreed that the problem concerning the canonical order of the Orthodox diaspora, that is, those faithful who reside beyond the traditional boundaries of Local Orthodox Churches, should be dealt with on the basis of ecclesiology, canonical tradition and the practice of the Orthodox Church. To this end, it was agreed to set up bishops’ assemblies consisting in all the canonical Orthodox bishops who take pastoral care of the community in a given locality. The task of bishops’ assemblies will be to ascertain and consolidate the unity of the Orthodox Church, to provide common pastoral care for Orthodox people in a region and to bear common witness before the external world. The assemblies’ decisions are to be made on the basis of consensus reached by the Churches whose bishops are represented in them. The authority of a bishops’ assembly excludes interference in the diocesan jurisdiction of each of the bishops and does not restrict the rights of a bishop’s Church including her relations with international organizations, governments, social institutions and mass media as well as other confessions, governmental and inter-confessional organizations and other religions.
 
The conference also adopted a revised draft procedure defining the foundations for the work of regional bishops’ assemblies in the Orthodox diaspora.
 
Source: DECR Communication Service
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/171.aspx
 
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2009, 08:57:20 AM »

Will this really make any difference in the USA, as we already have SCOBA?
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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2009, 09:40:56 AM »

Will this really make any difference in the USA, as we already have SCOBA?
It is very similar to SCOBA but it appears that this assembly will have the ability to make decisions. Most importantly these assemblies are required to come up with canonical solution to the way their own regions are organized, SCOBA can not do this. 
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2009, 10:03:11 AM »

Well, that will be an improvement.  It would be nice if this could be a steppingstone to new national churches. I think the best way to avoid stepping on hierarches toes, is that instead of having an EP hierarch as the president of this assembly, they should rotate the presidency among the ruling archbishops/metropolitans.
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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2009, 11:53:51 AM »

Well, that will be an improvement.  It would be nice if this could be a steppingstone to new national churches. I think the best way to avoid stepping on hierarches toes, is that instead of having an EP hierarch as the president of this assembly, they should rotate the presidency among the ruling archbishops/metropolitans.

But then you are missing the whole point of the EP wanting these assemblies:witness the Chief Secretary's assertion that the chairmanship by the EP's hierarch makes SCOBA canonical: according to SCOBA's constitution, the chairmanship rotates.

It would be interesting to see what they do with SCOBA, and that clause.

Moscow raised this issue on France, where the local version of SCOBA evidently does give the chairmanship ex officio to the EP's man there.

These assemblies are intended to create/eliminate facts on the ground before the decision on diptychs and the production of new canons of how a Church becomes autocephalous, the next item on the agenda.  It remains to be seen if events cooperate.
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2009, 02:11:55 PM »

Many countries already have SCOBA-like structures (Australia, France Germany).
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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2009, 03:05:16 PM »


THE FOURTH PRE-CONCILIAR PAN-ORTHODOX CONFERENCE

The Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate


Chambésy, 6-13 June 2009

 ....

Would you link to the original source? I'd like to read the Greek and French version, but can't seem to find either on the website of the Centre Orthodoxe du Patriarcat Œcuménique.
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2009, 07:20:15 PM »


THE FOURTH PRE-CONCILIAR PAN-ORTHODOX CONFERENCE

The Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate


Chambésy, 6-13 June 2009

 ....

Would you link to the original source? I'd like to read the Greek and French version, but can't seem to find either on the website of the Centre Orthodoxe du Patriarcat Œcuménique.

The two English documents were provided by the Vicar General of the Archdiocesan Chancellory of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in New Zealand with the note that they are the official English translation.  He did not mention if they are on a website.  A search at that time did not reveal a website.

The Russian version was provided by Mike and is on the website of the Polish Orthodox Church.

Since I posted the English version from the Ecumenical Patriarchate, they have appeared on the website of the EP  in South America.

http://www.ecclesia.com.br/news/?p=1762d

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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2009, 07:24:56 PM »

Delegate from ROCOR

One interesting point.   The OCA was not invited.  Nor were any of the autonomous Churches.  However the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad was invited and it was represented by Archbishop Mark (Arndt) of Berlin.
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2009, 08:56:35 PM »

The difference between the new assembly, probably still called SCOBA in US, and that which exists now is that the SCOBA which exists now is comprised of only the primates of the jurisdictions (and a meeting of all bishops is irregular, such as 1994) whereas the new order will be all North American Bishops will meet in this new assembly.  Russia is not second guessing this--she helped author it, in that it was HH Kyrill and John of Pergamos who together wrote the proposed considerations for this meeting.   She fully agrees that the order of hierarchy should follow the diptychs.   
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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2009, 11:42:43 PM »

I am hopefull that now that the "Mother Churches" have shown an interest in addressing the canonically anomalous structure in the "diaspora," finally, our American Orthodox Hierarchs will size the opportunity to really work together and coordinate our witness and our activities in the New World, nationally, regionally and locally.
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« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2009, 12:17:55 AM »

The difference between the new assembly, probably still called SCOBA in US, and that which exists now is that the SCOBA which exists now is comprised of only the primates of the jurisdictions (and a meeting of all bishops is irregular, such as 1994) whereas the new order will be all North American Bishops will meet in this new assembly.  Russia is not second guessing this--she helped author it, in that it was HH Kyrill and John of Pergamos who together wrote the proposed considerations for this meeting.   She fully agrees that the order of hierarchy should follow the diptychs.   

LOL.  Since there are rumblings in Moscow on the order of the diptychs and related issues, "fully" I don't think is the operative word.

On the rest, we'll see.
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« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2009, 12:23:39 AM »

Russia is not second guessing this--she helped author it, in that it was HH Kyrill and John of Pergamos who together wrote the proposed considerations for this meeting.   She fully agrees that the order of hierarchy should follow the diptychs.   

That could be interesting in the US.  Suppose the senior Greek hierarch is indisposed or otherwise unable to attend meeting/s of the Regional Assembly.  In America the next in order in the diptychs (absent anyone from Alexandria) is Metropolitan Philip.
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« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2009, 02:37:10 PM »

That is true, it will be interesting, although the number of Slavic Bishops greatly outnumbers the number of Greek Bishops, at least in North America.  Also, I am not sure if anyone but +Philip has a vote in the new assembly, since, I believe, and could be wrong, that it is only diocesan Bishops of the juridictions that have a vote, not auxiliaries.   
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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2009, 02:56:03 PM »

Also, I am not sure if anyone but +Philip has a vote in the new assembly, since, I believe, and could be wrong, that it is only diocesan Bishops of the juridictions that have a vote, not auxiliaries.   

The others also do have.



1.   All Orthodox Bishops of each region, from those regions defined by the Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference, who are in canonical communion with all the local Autocephalous Orthodox Churches, form each Episcopal Assembly.
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2009, 04:08:23 PM »

The difference between the new assembly, probably still called SCOBA in US, and that which exists now is that the SCOBA which exists now is comprised of only the primates of the jurisdictions (and a meeting of all bishops is irregular, such as 1994) whereas the new order will be all North American Bishops will meet in this new assembly.  Russia is not second guessing this--she helped author it, in that it was HH Kyrill and John of Pergamos who together wrote the proposed considerations for this meeting.   She fully agrees that the order of hierarchy should follow the diptychs.   

LOL.  Since there are rumblings in Moscow on the order of the diptychs and related issues, "fully" I don't think is the operative word.

On the rest, we'll see.

May I ask what rumblings, please?  I haven't heard or seen anything to suggest that Moscow isn't fully on board with this.  Would you mind posting something so that we can see what you are talking about, please?

Thanks!
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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2009, 05:54:07 PM »

That is true, it will be interesting, although the number of Slavic Bishops greatly outnumbers the number of Greek Bishops, at least in North America.  Also, I am not sure if anyone but +Philip has a vote in the new assembly, since, I believe, and could be wrong, that it is only diocesan Bishops of the juridictions that have a vote, not auxiliaries.   
LOL.  We don't have auxiliaries in the Antiochian Archdiocese, despite what Metropolitan Philip et alia would like.
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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2009, 05:59:15 PM »

The difference between the new assembly, probably still called SCOBA in US, and that which exists now is that the SCOBA which exists now is comprised of only the primates of the jurisdictions (and a meeting of all bishops is irregular, such as 1994) whereas the new order will be all North American Bishops will meet in this new assembly.  Russia is not second guessing this--she helped author it, in that it was HH Kyrill and John of Pergamos who together wrote the proposed considerations for this meeting.   She fully agrees that the order of hierarchy should follow the diptychs.   

LOL.  Since there are rumblings in Moscow on the order of the diptychs and related issues, "fully" I don't think is the operative word.

On the rest, we'll see.

May I ask what rumblings, please?  I haven't heard or seen anything to suggest that Moscow isn't fully on board with this.  Would you mind posting something so that we can see what you are talking about, please?

Thanks!
Presbytera Mari

Can only post briefly (taking the boys to the park): there is that issue of the order of the diptychs, which, if these assemblies go according to plan, will strenghthen the EP's hand against Moscow making any changes.  There is the issue of the Ukrainians, why they are under the EP when their mother Church is under Moscow, the renegade Russian bishops that ran off to the EP, and then there's always Estonia.  There are things I am hearing and seeing between Met. Jonah and Moscow, it is going to be interesting to see how they are going to try to set up shop here in North America.
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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2009, 09:40:20 PM »

The difference between the new assembly, probably still called SCOBA in US, and that which exists now is that the SCOBA which exists now is comprised of only the primates of the jurisdictions (and a meeting of all bishops is irregular, such as 1994) whereas the new order will be all North American Bishops will meet in this new assembly.  Russia is not second guessing this--she helped author it, in that it was HH Kyrill and John of Pergamos who together wrote the proposed considerations for this meeting.   She fully agrees that the order of hierarchy should follow the diptychs.   

LOL.  Since there are rumblings in Moscow on the order of the diptychs and related issues, "fully" I don't think is the operative word.

On the rest, we'll see.

May I ask what rumblings, please?  I haven't heard or seen anything to suggest that Moscow isn't fully on board with this.  Would you mind posting something so that we can see what you are talking about, please?

Thanks!
Presbytera Mari

Can only post briefly (taking the boys to the park): there is that issue of the order of the diptychs, which, if these assemblies go according to plan, will strenghthen the EP's hand against Moscow making any changes.  There is the issue of the Ukrainians, why they are under the EP when their mother Church is under Moscow, the renegade Russian bishops that ran off to the EP, and then there's always Estonia.  There are things I am hearing and seeing between Met. Jonah and Moscow, it is going to be interesting to see how they are going to try to set up shop here in North America.

Isa,
Thanks for the response.  I don't think I was clear... I know what the issues are.  I'm saying that all evidence thus far shows that, despite the issues you've named above, Moscow is supportive (evidenced by the signing of the decision, for starters).  You are saying that you are "hearing and seeing" things... that you "hear rumblings..." etc. about these issues.  My question is, where are you hearing and seeing?  Can you provide some links or documents that back up your assertion that Moscow may not be on board?  I don't mean that in an aggressive or attacking way at all.  I'm just trying to be clear in what I'm asking for.  I'm really curious and would like to read whatever it is that you have read that says that Moscow, despite signing the statement, doesn't support because of the issues you named.  Does that make sense?

Have fun at the park!!!!  Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2009, 12:57:35 AM »

The difference between the new assembly, probably still called SCOBA in US, and that which exists now is that the SCOBA which exists now is comprised of only the primates of the jurisdictions (and a meeting of all bishops is irregular, such as 1994) whereas the new order will be all North American Bishops will meet in this new assembly.  Russia is not second guessing this--she helped author it, in that it was HH Kyrill and John of Pergamos who together wrote the proposed considerations for this meeting.   She fully agrees that the order of hierarchy should follow the diptychs.   

LOL.  Since there are rumblings in Moscow on the order of the diptychs and related issues, "fully" I don't think is the operative word.

On the rest, we'll see.

May I ask what rumblings, please?  I haven't heard or seen anything to suggest that Moscow isn't fully on board with this.  Would you mind posting something so that we can see what you are talking about, please?

Thanks!
Presbytera Mari

Can only post briefly (taking the boys to the park): there is that issue of the order of the diptychs, which, if these assemblies go according to plan, will strenghthen the EP's hand against Moscow making any changes.  There is the issue of the Ukrainians, why they are under the EP when their mother Church is under Moscow, the renegade Russian bishops that ran off to the EP, and then there's always Estonia.  There are things I am hearing and seeing between Met. Jonah and Moscow, it is going to be interesting to see how they are going to try to set up shop here in North America.

Isa,
Thanks for the response.  I don't think I was clear... I know what the issues are.  I'm saying that all evidence thus far shows that, despite the issues you've named above, Moscow is supportive (evidenced by the signing of the decision, for starters).  You are saying that you are "hearing and seeing" things... that you "hear rumblings..." etc. about these issues.  My question is, where are you hearing and seeing?  Can you provide some links or documents that back up your assertion that Moscow may not be on board?  I don't mean that in an aggressive or attacking way at all.  I'm just trying to be clear in what I'm asking for.  I'm really curious and would like to read whatever it is that you have read that says that Moscow, despite signing the statement, doesn't support because of the issues you named.  Does that make sense?

Have fun at the park!!!!  Smiley

Unfortunately, didn't make it Sad

While they are busy intubating my stepfather, and I had to get out of the way, the waiting room here has an internet.  Anyway, no I don't have a "smoking gun" document, nor would I expect one.  The support Patriarch Kyril gave to Met. Jonah in the war of words this Lent was subdued in a letter that if you didn't know what they were talking about you would miss it.  Much like I don't expect statements from Patriarch Cyril, besides those already issued.  But those more conected with the Russian Church etc. indicate that the term enthusiasm would be misplaced if applied to Moscow's view of these committees.  However, no one sees any reason yet to not let them run there course, especially given the present situation in North America.  Depending on the fall out at the Antiochian convention, and what actually happens as they move towards forming the one for North America (like, when and how is Met. Jonah going to be officially invitated, or will he be invited?), the need for statements may change.  Personally, I am waiting to see what the Romanians due: the talk at the Patriarchal Cathedral here is falling further behind what is actually happening.  It is an indication of what is to come here.

Btw, glad to see you again.  Are you settled in Atlanta?
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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2009, 01:03:49 AM »

The Episcopal Assemblies plan being put forward by a pre-conciliar commission is a major positive development in pan-Orthodox relations.  For whatever reasons, in my opinion, the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Patriarchate of Moscow, have put aside their little disputes, i.e. Estonia, for the time being, and have elevated their discussions to the greater issues of Eastern Orthodox unity, something we pray for at every Liturgy.  Rather than speculating as to the possible political negotiations that led to the unanimous agreement of the Holy Orthodox Churches representatives, let us focus on the work that the new Episcopal Assemblies plan can bring to our Holy Church in North and Central America.  If we focus on a unified witness at the national, regional, and local levels, and begin to function in an environment that considers pan-Orthodox cooperation natural, the rest of what we most desire, a unified administration, will naturally evolve.  Let's also appreciate the fact that the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Patriarchate of Moscow have deferred their little disputes in favor of resolving significant problems that are not unsolvable; a sign of maturity.  I am eager to see the hierarchs of North and Central America to seize upon this great opportunity.
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2009, 02:03:02 AM »

The Episcopal Assemblies plan being put forward by a pre-conciliar commission is a major positive development in pan-Orthodox relations.
Let's hope so.
Quote
 For whatever reasons, in my opinion, the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Patriarchate of Moscow, have put aside their little disputes, i.e. Estonia,
Ukraine, Sourozh, Amphipolis, the OCA, autocephaly, fifth place in the diptychs...

Quote
for the time being, and have elevated their discussions to the greater issues of Eastern Orthodox unity, something we pray for at every Liturgy.  Rather than speculating as to the possible political negotiations that led to the unanimous agreement of the Holy Orthodox Churches representatives,

Couldn't be unaminous: one local Church wasn't even invited, nor represented.

Quote
let us focus on the work that the new Episcopal Assemblies plan can bring to our Holy Church in North and Central America.

LOL.  For one thing in our Archdiocese the issue of an old bishop of North America showing up in Central America.

Since one of the large jurisdictions, and autocephalous at that, in North and Central America is not party, it is rather out of focus.


Quote
 If we focus on a unified witness at the national, regional, and local levels, and begin to function in an environment that considers pan-Orthodox cooperation natural,

How about one that considers "diaspora" unnatural?

Quote
the rest of what we most desire, a unified administration, will naturally evolve.

Not without the local autocephalous Church it won't.

Quote
 Let's also appreciate the fact that the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Patriarchate of Moscow have deferred their little disputes in favor of resolving significant problems that are not unsolvable; a sign of maturity.

We'll see.

Quote
 I am eager to see the hierarchs of North and Central America to seize upon this great opportunity.

A whole (recently enlarged) Holy Synod was not given the opportunity to seize it.
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2009, 10:42:13 AM »

Well, now its going on two months, and a quick survey of the offical sites yielded only this on the "Episcopal Assembly" for North America.

Quote
There was also discussion of the Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference that met at the Orthodox Center of Ecumenical Patriarchate in Chambésy, Switzerland from 6 - 13, June 2009 and the accompanying Communiqué.
http://www.scoba.us/articles/2688.html

There was something on the finalization of union and reorganization of the Serbs here, an extraordinary meeting of the Holy Synod of the OCA, etc.  (Nothing about the Romanians ditching the OCA for the Patriarch, btw, which would fit better in this "Episcopal Assembly" scheme). NOTHING on the "Episcopal Assembly" for North America.

Any buzz?
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« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2009, 02:35:40 PM »

FWIW I heard a rumour that the MP is going to recognize America as the EP's territory. The speculation is an agreement that the EP will back off doing anything with the sensitive Ukrainian situation.
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« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2009, 03:47:12 PM »

FWIW I heard a rumour that the MP is going to recognize America as the EP's territory. The speculation is an agreement that the EP will back off doing anything with the sensitive Ukrainian situation.

Is that speculation on where he got the watch?

I don't think that is in the realm of possibility. Not for America, but because it would effectively short circuit all Moscow's claims vis-a-via the EP. Canon 28 not only deals with "disapora" in the EP world view, but the honor of "New Rome."

That would of course, also be the mistake as it would invite EP involvement in the Ukraine.
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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2009, 04:18:59 PM »

FWIW I heard a rumour that the MP is going to recognize America as the EP's territory. The speculation is an agreement that the EP will back off doing anything with the sensitive Ukrainian situation.

Is that speculation on where he got the watch?

I don't think that is in the realm of possibility. Not for America, but because it would effectively short circuit all Moscow's claims vis-a-via the EP. Canon 28 not only deals with "disapora" in the EP world view, but the honor of "New Rome."

That would of course, also be the mistake as it would invite EP involvement in the Ukraine.

I agree!  Though not with the watch thing.  Speaking of rumors and speculation - I heard that ow the EP has begun referring to himself as 'Protos' and requesting we do likewise.  Any truth to that?  Is that his word for 'Pope"  (I know it means first but first of what?)

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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2009, 04:23:28 PM »

FWIW I heard a rumour that the MP is going to recognize America as the EP's territory. The speculation is an agreement that the EP will back off doing anything with the sensitive Ukrainian situation.

Is that speculation on where he got the watch?

I don't think that is in the realm of possibility. Not for America, but because it would effectively short circuit all Moscow's claims vis-a-via the EP. Canon 28 not only deals with "disapora" in the EP world view, but the honor of "New Rome."

That would of course, also be the mistake as it would invite EP involvement in the Ukraine.

I agree!  Though not with the watch thing.  Speaking of rumors and speculation - I heard that ow the EP has begun referring to himself as 'Protos' and requesting we do likewise.  Any truth to that?  Is that his word for 'Pope"  (I know it means first but first of what?)

Orthodoc

LOL.  I'm not sure it was a request.
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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2009, 04:45:35 PM »

"That would of course, also be the mistake as it would invite EP involvement in the Ukraine"

- That is why I wrote that the trade off would be the EP staying away from the Ukraine. This would certainly serve the Russian political agenda as Orthodoxy is the dominant religion in Ukraine as opposed to a tiny minority here in the US, outside Russia's sphere of influence. The EP's primacy in the US would strenghten up the EP concerning the Turkish problem. A "canonical" justification for all of this can be cooked up between the EP and MP to validate such an agreement.
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