OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 28, 2014, 09:15:55 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Jaroslav Pelikan  (Read 5875 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
lutheraninquirer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


« on: November 15, 2003, 06:59:26 PM »

As you can tell from my screen name, I am a Lutheran.  I have searched around the internet looking for an interview of Jaroslav Pelikan, or other biographical piece, since his conversion to Orthodoxy, but no success.  Does anyone have any information on his account of his conversion? If (arguably) the most knowledgeable Lutheran scholar on the planet converts, than I feel I am bound to at least do some inquiry.  

To get myself up to speed on basics, I stopped at the local Antiochian church and bought a copy of Bishop Ware's book.  The priest and I talked briefly, and he appreciated that as a Lutheran, I at least know what a sacrament is, so I'm a leg up on 80% of all other US Protestants.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2003, 07:10:58 PM »

I have read Pelikan has kept from publicly discussing his conversion for deliberate reasons of privacy.

I am a former Lutheran.  Good to have you on board!

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
lutheraninquirer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2003, 07:29:52 PM »

Thanks for the welcome!  I am happy in my current church home as I believe my pastor is theologically sound, but am concerned about the direction of the ELCA heading toward 2005, where there will be a vote on the same issues decided recently by ECUSA.  I am a long ways from considering conversion, but who knows? A lot of Anglicans probably never thought about converting before this summer, either.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2003, 10:44:35 PM »

Hello, Lutheraninquirer! I too was a Lutheran, a Lutheran among the Lutherans, descendant of German immigrants to Pennsylvania.

Have you read Pelikan's The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine or any of its individual five volumes?

I have not read all five volumes yet, but I have read most of volume I, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600).

I get the impression that Pelikan's research for The Christian Tradition played a big part in his conversion, but I cannot prove it.

Anyway, I am Orthodox now, too.

Welcome!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2003, 10:45:13 PM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
lutheraninquirer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2003, 11:07:09 AM »

I have not read any of those volumes - I looked at them in the bookstore once and skimmed them, they look a bit imposing.  I have Jesus Through the Centuries by Pelikan, which is more understandable to laymen.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2003, 09:51:23 PM »

They are not as imposing as they look, although it takes a little while to get used to Pelikan's style. Volume 1 has been a real education for me. I haven't finished it yet, but I am enjoying it immensely.

In fact, I just bought Volume 2 today!

I have to pick the volumes up here and there, when I get the old lady's permission to buy more books (I buy a lot of them - it aggravates her sometimes, bless her tolerant soul).

For a Lutheran inquirer I would recommend Clark Carlton's The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church. It was very influential in my decision to convert.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Saint Polycarp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 243



« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2003, 11:26:22 PM »

As you can tell from my screen name, I am a Lutheran.  I have searched around the internet looking for an interview of Jaroslav Pelikan, or other biographical piece, since his conversion to Orthodoxy, but no success.  Does anyone have any information on his account of his conversion? If (arguably) the most knowledgeable Lutheran scholar on the planet converts, than I feel I am bound to at least do some inquiry.  

To get myself up to speed on basics, I stopped at the local Antiochian church and bought a copy of Bishop Ware's book.  The priest and I talked briefly, and he appreciated that as a Lutheran, I at least know what a sacrament is, so I'm a leg up on 80% of all other US Protestants.          

Hi Lutheraninquirer,
 He isn't the first major Lutheran theologen to convert.  Richard John Neuhaus became a Catholic priest in the early 1990's he is in New York city.  Here's a url to a good book written about several Lutheran Pastors who tell their stories. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0759613206/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/104-2796385-4308735
Best wishes with your spiritual journey.
Peace,
Polycarp
Logged

Peace
Tikhon29605
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 530


May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.


« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2003, 02:42:29 PM »

Lutheran inquirer:
Logged
Tikhon29605
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 530


May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.


« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2003, 02:51:42 PM »

I too was a Lutheran for many years, even attended a Lutheran pre-seminary college for a while. Most of my Lutheran experience was in the churches of the old Synodical Conference (the Missouri Synod, the Wisconsin Synod, and the Norwegian Synod).  TWO things helped me convert to Orthodoxy.  Number one, studying Lutheran history, and finding out how much more "catholic" and "mystical" the Lutheranism of the 16th century was than this watered-down version that passes for Lutheranism in 21st century America. Secondly, abadoning the Lutheran doctrine of "monergism." the belief that we cannot cooperate with God at all, esp, in our conversion.  Once I realized that the Church had always taught "synergism" (cooperating with God in our conversion and salvation), it was fairly easy to make the break with Lutheranism.  In the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) we have TWO Bishops who were former Lutherans: Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco and Bishop Seraphim of Canada.  I hope your interest in Orthodoxy proves fruitful.  I've met so many frustrated Lutherans over the years who have converted to Orthodoxy and become settled and happy.  God bless!

Tikhon
Logged
Athanasius
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2003, 08:25:32 PM »

Though I was never Lutheran (a good friend of mine was) I used to Protestant myself. I found that once I realized that the Church had always believed the following:
1. Apostolic Succession and NO schism allowed
2. Sacraments
3. Synergy in salvation
4. Sola Scriptura is false

Then I had no choice but to seriously look into Orthodoxy. I also recommend Carlton's book "The Way" as well as Michael Pomazansky's "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology". For more intense studies of sola scriptura and sola fide I recommend the Roman Catholic books "Not by Faith alone" and "Not by Scripture Alone" both by Robert Sungenis. I of course also recommend that you pick up a copy of the Aposotlic Fathers (it must include Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Hermas, Didache, Mathetes, Barnabas) to see what the earliest Christians believed.

God Bless,

Athanasius
Logged

God became man that man might become God-St. Athanasius
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2003, 09:46:57 AM »

I'm not Lutheran, but I see Pelikan's name a lot in the text and the footnotes in the books I've been reading.  So far I've read THIRSTING FOR GOD IN A LAND OF SHALLOW WELLS by Matthew Gallatin (3 times), THE WAY by Clark Carlton (on my 3rd time through), DANCING ALONE by Frank Schaffer (1 1/2 times), and THE ORTHODOX CHURCH and THE ORTHODOX WAY by Bishop Kallistos Ware (once each).  The first book I read about Orthodoxy was BECOMING ORTHODOX by Fr. Peter Gilquist which tells the account of the search for the New Testament Church by several men who were involved in Evangelical parachurch College Ministry.

The first two books listed are my favorites thus far (esp THIRSTING FOR GOD) as they are written by converts from evangelicalism (Carlton was Southern Baptist like me) and are easy to read.  DANCING ALONE is okay and makes some good observations, but it is somewhat repetitive and polemical.  (Mr. Schaffer is also a convert from evangelican Protestantism).

Oh, BTW--some books by non-Orthodox that have been helpful in exploring historical Christianity are:

(1) RETRIEVING THE TRADITION AND RENEWING EVANGELICALISM  by D.H. Williams.  Mr. Williams is actually a baptist who at the time of writing this work was a professor of Patristics at Loyolla (sp?) in Chicago.  It's ironic that a book written by one who (AFAIK) remains a Baptist, has spurred me on this quest.

(2) EARLY CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES by J.N.D.Kelly.  Many regard this as one of the definitive works on the subject.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 09:54:11 AM by Doubting Thomas » Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,404



« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2003, 11:28:01 AM »

For more intense studies of sola scriptura and sola fide I recommend the Roman Catholic books "Not by Faith alone" and "Not by Scripture Alone" both by Robert Sungenis.

Presumably both of these were written long before he imploded into a geocentrist?
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,333


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2003, 03:48:31 PM »

That's correct, Keble.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
lutheraninquirer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2003, 06:15:07 PM »

Thanks for your input, everyone.  There are many compelling arguments in favor of Orthodoxy.  It really is too bad Luther and Henry VIII did not explore Orthodoxy as an answer to their complaints against Rome.  Most of Luther's early complaints against Rome could have been satisified by merely professing allegiance to the East as opposed to Rome.  This would also seem to be true regarding Pre-Cranmer Anglicanism.  The geographic distance was prohibitive at that time, I suppose, and by the time the Lutherans got around to discussing the issues with the Orthodox in the late 1500's it was too late.  The Calvinists and Zwinglians would have broken off anyway, but if Patriarchates would have been established in Wittenburg and Canterbury, the fracturing of the Church would have been much less severe.    

(BTW, I reviewed Sungenis' site.  There are many good Catholic apologists, like Dave Armstrong, but that guy seems to be hurting the Catholic cause much more than helping it).
Logged
Athanasius
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2003, 07:56:55 PM »

I agree with you about Sungenis, but the two books are very good regardless.

Athanasius
Logged

God became man that man might become God-St. Athanasius
Strobert
Strobert
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 52



WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2003, 12:25:10 AM »

If you'd like to hear Pelikan himself talk about creeds, and also answer a question about his becoming Orthodox, go to http://www.speakingoffaith.org/programs/2003/09/.

Speaking of Faith is a public radio program produced by Minnesota PR.  On September 19 of this year, Pelikan is interviewed under the title "Jaroslav Pelikan and the Need for Creeds." He doesn't go into details about his becoming Orthodox, but it's better than nothing.  That question is asked during the second half of the program.
Logged

St Rupert (Robert) of Salzburg, pray to God for us.
Byzantino
Me Ortodox
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 353


Orthodox Christian


« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2003, 08:30:18 PM »

Hello LutheranInquirer

You said: There are many good Catholic apologists, like Dave Armstrong, but that guy seems to be hurting the Catholic cause much more than helping it.
       
Orthodox and Eastern-rite Roman Catholics would certainly agree with you there! What specifically led you to that conclusion?

I agree that Sungenis' books are superb (Not By Scripture Alone, and Not By Bread Alone.) He's quite a good Greek scholar.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2003, 01:40:43 AM »

Strobert,
Great interview on MPR. I was particularly moved by the Massai Creed; it reminded me of the first (and only) time I heard a recording of an Ethiopian Orthodox liturgy. ('Kyrie eleison' to a tribal was unforgetable.)

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
lutheraninquirer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2003, 12:00:29 PM »

To respond to your question, Byzantino, I came away from Sungenis's website with a negative impression, largely because it appeared to me that he is trying to infuse elements of fundamentalism into Catholicism.  The beauty of Scripture is that it is filled with many different literary forms, including prose, poetry, allegory, history, etc.  My take on Sungenis is that, like the fundamentalists, he has tried to turn Scripture into a science textbook.  The whole "challenge" part of his website, where he dares people to "prove" that his belief in the geocentric model of the universe is wrong seems to be an incredibly absurd debate - let the church deal with theology, let Stephen Hawking deal with a scientific understanding of the universe.  On the other hand, I understand that just because he seems to be "out there" on that subject, that does not mean he is incorrect in his other works, because I have found that tactic in anti-Luther writings to be irritating.
Logged
gregory2
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 405


Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!


« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2003, 08:54:31 PM »

I've also read that Prof. Jaroslav Pelikan won't publicly discuss his conversion.

One of the reason (I believe) that Martin Luther and/or the Church of England didn't come closer to "becoming Eastern Orthodox" in their break with the RCC was probably geographical -- there were no Orthodox around them, and though it would have been possible, it's tough to become Orthodox "from the ground up" with no local influence.

There are cases of people "studying" their way to Orthodoxy and converting -- a group of Ugandans in southern Africa who were Anglican "studied" their way to Eastern Orthodoxy and were received under the Patriarchate of Alexandria and All Africa a while back, without any local Orthodox influence -- reportedly they just read history and concluded that it was the "correct" church!
Logged

"Anything that is worth accomplishing cannot be accomplished in a lifetime." - the Holy Fathers
rosborn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 123


Searching for home


« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2003, 08:43:05 AM »

I'm not much impressed Sungenis either.  I believe he is promoting the theory, these days, that the sun revolves around the earth.  He started out fairly orthodox in his opinions and writings but has since fallen off the edge, so to speak.

Rob
Logged
rosborn
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 123


Searching for home


« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2003, 08:53:49 AM »

Not sure I agree that Luther would have become Orthodox had Orthodox churches existed in Germany.  He was bent on going his own route and was long troubled by issues of scrupulocity.  I mean, he would go to Confession and would exit not knowing if was forgiven and also would worry that he had committed additional sins walking back to his room.

Actually, I attribute Lutheranism more to a mindset amongst Germans (Franks) than anything else.  Here's what I mean: Germany has long been at the forefront of radical thought.  For example: the Filioque finds its roots in Germanic/Frankish thought, the Reformation began in Germany, Reform Judaism began in Germany, etc.  Not to mention Communism/Socialism and Fascism.  The German/Frankish mind and ethos seems to be motivated to impose its will and wishes upon everyone else and initiate changes that will cause radical departures from what was thought or practiced previously.    Seriously, what good came out of the Filioque, the Reformation or the splintering of Judaism?

Rob
Logged
Tikhon29605
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 530


May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.


« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2003, 05:54:24 PM »

The German/Frankish mind and ethos seems to be motivated to impose its will and wishes upon everyone else and initiate changes that will cause radical departures from what was thought or practiced previously


I know EXACTLY what you mean.  As an American of German descent, raised by family with strong Germanic roots, and having been brought up on a religious diet of very strong Germanic Lutheranism, I understand your point.  I become conscious of how "Germanic" I really am when I converted to Russian Orthodoxy.  It was both a joy and a learning experience at the same time.  One thing I've noticed (dare I call it an "ethnic characteristic" of Germans?) is this strong obessive compulsive impulse that (myself included) so many seem to have.  The Germanic mind does not like loose ends.  Orthodoxy leaves so many questions unanswered and in the realm of mystery.  Germans LOVE order, regulation, rules, and clear cut, unambiguous instructions.  Orthodox liturgics, for someone coming from a Germanic mindset, appear chaotic and random at best.  The Germanic mind immediately thinks: Why is this not all in ONE Book?  Why do you have to have 12 different liturgical books to celebrate the Liturgy?  Why are people coming into church AFTER the liturgy has started? Where are the pews?  Where is the ORDER?  Why are you repeating things?  Is is not sufficient to say something once?  Do you think God is deaf, perhaps?  All these questions ran through my mind when I first encountered Orthodoxy, and I attribute of it to my Germanic mindset.  I think the way Luther struggled with confession, could spend hours in confession, and still inflict such self-torment on himself that he might go to hell for just ONE little unconfessed sin is rather typical of the Germanic mind.  The Germanic mind has real difficulty finding peace and contentment, and often substitutes being busy, active and industrious for dealing with the problems of its soul.  Comments?
Logged
Byzantino
Me Ortodox
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 353


Orthodox Christian


« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2003, 09:03:46 PM »

Very interesting theory. I think there's alot of evidence to support it.
Is it on this forum that i read about the Pentagon appointing Germans as their Generals for the reasons mentioned above?
Logged
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2003, 09:12:49 PM »

Ach, was ist das? Ich soll dich schlagen! Deutsch fuer immer!!!
Logged
NDHoosier
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian Patriarchate
Posts: 75


Exiled from God's Country (North Dakota)


« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2003, 09:44:30 PM »

I'm not much impressed Sungenis either.  I believe he is promoting the theory, these days, that the sun revolves around the earth.  He started out fairly orthodox in his opinions and writings but has since fallen off the edge, so to speak.

Rob

So, then, you believe the earth is flat?   Grin
Logged

There ain't a horse that can't be rode, and there ain't a rider that can't be throwed.
Byzantino
Me Ortodox
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 353


Orthodox Christian


« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2003, 10:17:36 PM »

Das ist nicht eine booby!
Logged
Seraphim Reeves
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 450



WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2003, 04:49:45 PM »

Tikhon,

I find your observations as interesting as they are candid.

I think your explanations go a long way in explaining why the west eventually became "Augustinian" in it's theological orientation, and all of the problems that come with this.  Augustine's theologizing/philosophizing is characterized by a quality which I think your assessment of the Germanic mindset would find appealing.

For example, the rest of the Fathers do not try to define how the "begotteness" of the Son, differs from the "Procession" of the Holy Spirit.  They simply say "it does", and leave it at that...even going so far as to attack any attempt to peer into this subject.  Yet, this was not good enough for Augustine - as far as he was concerned, if there was not discernable difference, then the two processions must be the same...and if the same, that would mean (in his view), there was nothing that logically distinguished the Son and the Holy Spirit; indeed, they'd be the same Hypostasis.

This is where filioquism, the problematic, heretical variety that came to be officially adopted by Latin Christendom, came from.  This is just one example of both the content, and approach of Augustine, which would come to characterize the west, AFTER the ascendency of the Franks.  I think it's obvious where the appeal came from, and why in the west Augustine became, for all purposes, the "only Father that mattered."  This is why by the time scholasticism was born, and you read things like the Summa, there are practically no Patristic references, save those from Augustine.

Seraphim
Logged

katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 886


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2003, 06:03:39 PM »

Tikhon, I think you may be on to something.  I was not raised Lutheran (I was raised Baptist, though I had Lutheran grandparents on both sides of my family who converted to Baptist), but I inherited a lot of German blood from my maternal grandmother.  I definitely inherited a lot of the characteristics you talk about (though I have a lot of English/Scottish blood as well).  Thank goodness for Orthodoxy.  You have a priest/spiritual father to purify you of the bad side of those traits.  Used properly, those traits can be good.  I definitely know what you mean about wanting things cut and dried.  However, having come from an evangelical background, I'm not sure part of those traits don't come from that.  We want to know the *10 easy steps* we need to follow to become holy.  We don't want to hear that it is a slow, back-breaking struggle to become holy.  We want an instant fix, and we want to know the easy steps needed to do it.  We don't want to hear that there are *10 easy steps*.
Logged
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 886


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2003, 06:05:34 PM »

By the way, I've noticed that I am now a *Member*--WOO HOO! Cool  I'm moving up in the OrthodoxChristianity.net world! Grin
Logged
Karamazov
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 280


WWW
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2003, 06:30:59 PM »

By the way, I've noticed that I am now a *Member*--WOO HOO! Cool  I'm moving up in the OrthodoxChristianity.net world! Grin

Congratulations, your membershipness! Grin
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,846


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2003, 03:08:45 PM »

I've also read that Prof. Jaroslav Pelikan won't publicly discuss his conversion.

One of the reason (I believe) that Martin Luther and/or the Church of England didn't come closer to "becoming Eastern Orthodox" in their break with the RCC was probably geographical -- there were no Orthodox around them, and though it would have been possible, it's tough to become Orthodox "from the ground up" with no local influence.

There are cases of people "studying" their way to Orthodoxy and converting -- a group of Ugandans in southern Africa who were Anglican "studied" their way to Eastern Orthodoxy and were received under the Patriarchate of Alexandria and All Africa a while back, without any local Orthodox influence -- reportedly they just read history and concluded that it was the "correct" church!

In the OCMC magazine, it quoted some evangelical Africans who said that one of their sons prophesized about the Orthodox Church. So the next year when the Orthodox just happened to have a conference in their neck of the woods, these Africans went to see and joined. God is working miracles.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.106 seconds with 58 queries.