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Author Topic: Pope says tests support saga of St. Paul’s bones  (Read 1543 times) Average Rating: 0
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monkvasyl
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« on: June 29, 2009, 02:19:03 PM »

Pope says tests support saga of St. Paul’s bones

Carbon dating indicates remains in Rome were from 1st or 2nd century

updated 7:10 p.m. ET, Sun., June 28, 2009
ROME - The first-ever scientific tests on what are believed to be the remains of the Apostle Paul "seem to conclude" that they do indeed belong to the Roman Catholic saint, Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday.

Archaeologists recently unearthed and opened the white marble sarcophagus located under the Basilica of St. Paul's Outside the Walls in Rome, which for almost 2,000 years has been believed by the faithful to be the tomb of St. Paul

For more of the article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31599704/ns/technology_and_science-science/
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 06:29:36 PM »

Okay, not to sound like a spoil sport for the proof of these relics/remains, but honestly, why would you even need the tests? Do you have to definitively prove everything?
But if they truly are the remains of St. Paul, then Glory to God that his relics are with us today. Though they aren't in Orthodox possession, I believe they are still in good, protective hands with the Vatican.
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 08:21:36 PM »

Okay, not to sound like a spoil sport for the proof of these relics/remains, but honestly, why would you even need the tests? Do you have to definitively prove everything?
But if they truly are the remains of St. Paul, then Glory to God that his relics are with us today. Though they aren't in Orthodox possession, I believe they are still in good, protective hands with the Vatican.


I don't think they are in good hands there...
I read awhile back wish i can find the artical,they missplaced a relic and found it in a cupboard years later...
When the ill wind of vatican two blew in ,a frend ended up with catholic altar stone w/relics enbedded in them ,,all different types relics chalices censors,
tabernaceles,,and many other things that were sacred before vatican 2 but after lost there sacredness ended up in his shop....


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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2009, 09:25:25 PM »

It's sad to see how they take science, history, and other human inventions as the basis of their faith, and even sadder to see those who call themselves orthodox christians, to do exactly the same thing.

Where is faith in God?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 09:35:25 PM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 09:33:40 PM »

Catholics have faith in God.  I think that the more we learn from science, the more it points towards God.  God after all did create this world.  Science can even bring people to belief, which is what the Pope may have been aiming for.

You can have both science and God!

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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 09:38:28 PM »

Hello,

I am a bit confused. In 2008, St. Paul's relics were brought to Bucharest, Romania from Greece. Am I missing something?

HOLY APOSTLE PAUL IN BUCHAREST
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October 23-29, 2008

Beloved pilgrims,

On the occasion of the celebration of 2000 years since the birth of Holy Apostle Paul, the Church’s greatest missionary and the author of most of the Biblical writings used in the Orthodox service, the holy relics of St Paul, the Apostle to the Nations, are being brought to Bucharest from Greece for a week (October 23-29, 2008), thanks to the benevolence of Most Rev. Panteleimon, Metropolitan of Veria, Nausa and Kampania.

The presence in Bucharest, over these feast days, of the holy relics of St Paul, together with those of Righteous Demetrios the New, the Protector of Bucharest, is a great blessing to us all: hierarchs, clergy, monastics, faithful pilgrims from Romania and abroad.

http://www.patriarhia.ro/en/patriarch/msg004.html
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 01:01:32 AM »

Stefi, it is not uncommon for the bodily relics of a saint to be found in various places at the same time. The Greek city of Patras has a finger from Apostle Andrew (who preached and was martyred there), the rest of his relics are elsewhere. Similarly, the right hand of the New Martyr Elizabeth the Grand Duchess is "on tour" as we speak, while the rest of her relics are buried, as I understand it.

It is quite common for an episcopal, or, more usually, a patriarchal blessing to be given for the bodily relics of a saint to be divided for wider "distribution". It must also be remembered that every consecrated Orthodox church must have a holy relic (bodily relic) of a saint embedded in it, as must every antimension/antimins (the principal altarcloth which allows a priest to conduct the Eucharist). As long as any division of saints' relics is done with the proper reverence and respect, and as long as no money is exchanged in their acquisition, then there should not be a problem.
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 01:32:11 AM »

Hello,

I am a bit confused. In 2008, St. Paul's relics were brought to Bucharest, Romania from Greece. Am I missing something?

HOLY APOSTLE PAUL IN BUCHAREST
Come and receive the blessing
October 23-29, 2008

Beloved pilgrims,

On the occasion of the celebration of 2000 years since the birth of Holy Apostle Paul, the Church’s greatest missionary and the author of most of the Biblical writings used in the Orthodox service, the holy relics of St Paul, the Apostle to the Nations, are being brought to Bucharest from Greece for a week (October 23-29, 2008), thanks to the benevolence of Most Rev. Panteleimon, Metropolitan of Veria, Nausa and Kampania.

The presence in Bucharest, over these feast days, of the holy relics of St Paul, together with those of Righteous Demetrios the New, the Protector of Bucharest, is a great blessing to us all: hierarchs, clergy, monastics, faithful pilgrims from Romania and abroad.

http://www.patriarhia.ro/en/patriarch/msg004.html

Hi,
I was going to say the same thing!
The MEDIA likes to say things different...dont trust in media and the movies!
As the article says 'sarcophagus' of Apostle Paul found...And why is the Pope the identifier?
Its best we stay out of news like this... and so in similar news is about The ark of the Covenant....pretty starange things they are revealing..
 just my thoughts,

ICXC
eleni
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2009, 09:21:14 AM »


I didn't care for the wording - that St. Paul is a "Roman Catholic" saint.  He is a Christian Saint.  He doesn't belong only to the Roman Catholics.

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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 10:33:54 AM »

Pope says tests support saga of St. Paul’s bones

Carbon dating indicates remains in Rome were from 1st or 2nd century

updated 7:10 p.m. ET, Sun., June 28, 2009
ROME - The first-ever scientific tests on what are believed to be the remains of the Apostle Paul "seem to conclude" that they do indeed belong to the Roman Catholic saint, Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday.

Archaeologists recently unearthed and opened the white marble sarcophagus located under the Basilica of St. Paul's Outside the Walls in Rome, which for almost 2,000 years has been believed by the faithful to be the tomb of St. Paul

For more of the article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31599704/ns/technology_and_science-science/

Unfortunately, hypothesis testing, by design, does not prove the hypothesis.  Hypothesis testing is always designed to try to disprove the hypothesis.  In this case, if the carbon dating showed bones too old or too young - it would disprove that the bones are those of St. Paul. That is good scientific methodology.  All the tests show is that the age shown by this test of the bones does not disprove they are St. Paul's. 

Now, when you add in other data - say tradition, etc., - one might want to conclude they are in fact St. Paul's bones, but that is another matter altogether. And, it's a matter subject to further scientific testing if one desires.   
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 12:08:59 PM »

It's sad to see how they take science, history, and other human inventions as the basis of their faith, and even sadder to see those who call themselves orthodox christians, to do exactly the same thing.

Where is faith in God?

How can science and history and "human inventions" be a sad way to God? (God invented science not man)

That makes no sense. One of the reasons I'm Orthodox is because HISTORY points to Orthodoxy being the Church of Christ. And the reason I am no longer Protestant is because history totally disproves that they are the same Church Christ founded. (though Lutherans and Anglicans certainly have a spiritual lineage, but not Apostolic  Succession)

The reason I believe the Bible is what it claims to be is because it is supported in history. Christianity is an historical religion, based in real history. God the Logos became Incarnate within time and history, and so it is subject to tests and "proofs" that science and history may ask for.

Thomas the Apostle said "unless I see I will not believe!" What was Jesus response? Did He say, "shame on you Thomas for not believing!"? No, He told Thomas, "look at my side and hands".....Jesus offered proof. Yes, Jesus did say, blessed are those who believe without seeing, but history and science can be and have ALWAYS been used by the Church to increase faith. The Church fathers used history, including the documents that traced the Church's ordinations back to the Apostles. This is historical, and they used it to "prove" the validity of the Church.

If we use the reasoning that we should never use science of history to support our faith, then how do you as an Orthodox Christian refute Catholicism's claim to Rome's supremacy? If it's all about what "I" believe even against the evidence, then why not be a Protestant? Why be Christian at all? There are people with just as much, if not more faith of other religions.....what makes your faith or my faith more "correct" than say a Hindus faith, or a neo-pagan's faith?

I agree with you to the degree we shouldn't reduce everything down to "proof", but God is not hidden from history, and this evidence only increases my faith, and I think it's a wonderful thing they ran these tests. instead of being critical I say glory be to God.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 12:11:57 PM by NorthernPines » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2009, 01:41:23 AM »

Pope says tests support saga of St. Paul’s bones

Carbon dating indicates remains in Rome were from 1st or 2nd century

updated 7:10 p.m. ET, Sun., June 28, 2009
ROME - The first-ever scientific tests on what are believed to be the remains of the Apostle Paul "seem to conclude" that they do indeed belong to the Roman Catholic saint, Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday.

Archaeologists recently unearthed and opened the white marble sarcophagus located under the Basilica of St. Paul's Outside the Walls in Rome, which for almost 2,000 years has been believed by the faithful to be the tomb of St. Paul

For more of the article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31599704/ns/technology_and_science-science/

Unfortunately, hypothesis testing, by design, does not prove the hypothesis.  Hypothesis testing is always designed to try to disprove the hypothesis.  In this case, if the carbon dating showed bones too old or too young - it would disprove that the bones are those of St. Paul. That is good scientific methodology.  All the tests show is that the age shown by this test of the bones does not disprove they are St. Paul's. 

Now, when you add in other data - say tradition, etc., - one might want to conclude they are in fact St. Paul's bones, but that is another matter altogether. And, it's a matter subject to further scientific testing if one desires.   

Such testing will be done---the Pope is expected to give permission to open the tomb fully for further investigation.

There are other clues, making it seem likely the tomb is St. Paul's:

Inside the casket was discovered purple linen, laminated with pure gold. Almost certainly  imperial.

It is also helpful to know that a 5th-century marble plaque found earlier in that spot bore the inscription, "Paul Apostle Martyr."

-

I'm surprised you Orthodox haven't brought up another discovery, just revealed in Rome this week: the oldest icon of St. Paul in existence:

http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idINTRE55R0ZW20090628
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2009, 09:50:11 AM »

It's sad to see how they take science, history, and other human inventions as the basis of their faith, and even sadder to see those who call themselves orthodox christians, to do exactly the same thing.

Where is faith in God?

How can science and history and "human inventions" be a sad way to God? (God invented science not man)

How could God invent science? Science is a human activity, right? Are you willing to say that God invented art?
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2009, 12:05:23 PM »

It's sad to see how they take science, history, and other human inventions as the basis of their faith, and even sadder to see those who call themselves orthodox christians, to do exactly the same thing.

Where is faith in God?

How can science and history and "human inventions" be a sad way to God? (God invented science not man)

How could God invent science? Science is a human activity, right? Are you willing to say that God invented art?

What I meant was that science is the study of the laws and events in nature and these events and laws of nature of the creation itself (gravity, etc) are God's inventions. Man didn't "invent" electricity, he discovered it and what it was, but God "invented" it. (created is a better term, but i hope you get the point) Yes, I used bad analogy, but when a scientist studies geology, or any science, they are studying God's creation. Sorry for being so foggy in my post. Science is definitely a human endeavor, but what science studies is not. Any clearer now?




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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 12:20:27 PM »

Hello,

I am a bit confused. In 2008, St. Paul's relics were brought to Bucharest, Romania from Greece. Am I missing something?

St. Paul's head and the rest of his body were separated.  IIRC, the relics of his that have been circulating before the exhumation of the sarcophagus have been from his head.

Stefi, it is not uncommon for the bodily relics of a saint to be found in various places at the same time. The Greek city of Patras has a finger from Apostle Andrew (who preached and was martyred there), the rest of his relics are elsewhere. 

Actually, IIRC, St. Andrew's in Patras (built next to his ancient tomb) has St. Andrew's head and cross, in addition to a finger (or the whole hand... I don't remember exactly, since it's been over 13 years since I've been there).

On the topic of relics: for those looking for a reason to visit Cleveland - St. John's RC Cathedral has the relics of St. Christina.  (And the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame has relics from Michael Jackson. Wink )
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 12:41:11 PM »

It's sad to see how they take science, history, and other human inventions as the basis of their faith, and even sadder to see those who call themselves orthodox christians, to do exactly the same thing.

Where is faith in God?

How can science and history and "human inventions" be a sad way to God? (God invented science not man)

How could God invent science? Science is a human activity, right? Are you willing to say that God invented art?

What I meant was that science is the study of the laws and events in nature and these events and laws of nature of the creation itself (gravity, etc) are God's inventions. Man didn't "invent" electricity, he discovered it and what it was, but God "invented" it. (created is a better term, but i hope you get the point) Yes, I used bad analogy, but when a scientist studies geology, or any science, they are studying God's creation. Sorry for being so foggy in my post. Science is definitely a human endeavor, but what science studies is not. Any clearer now?

Thanks. I can sleep now. laugh
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 12:50:25 PM »

I recently saw a pinky-size relic of St. Anne, mother of Our Lady, at the church of St. Jean-Baptiste de la Salle in New York's Upper West Side.

Even non-saints were divided in such a way in the old days. I remember visiting the Cathedral of Rouen in France and seeing the tomb of King Richard I (the Lionheart) of England---I found out that only his heart was buried there. His brain was buried at the Abbey of Charroux in Poitou, his bowels at a church in the Limousin, and the rest of his body at Fontevrault Abbey in Anjou, along with his father King Henry II of England (and Count of Anjou) and mother Eleanor of Aquitaine.
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