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Author Topic: What Liturgy do the Byzantine Catholics Perform?  (Read 2524 times) Average Rating: 0
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simplygermain
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« on: June 27, 2009, 02:17:56 PM »

Also, what is thier difference. My one experience with a Byzantine catholic was eery. She spoke of the Theotokos as a feminine aspect of Christ Himself!! Wasn't too sure what to make of this person other than confused...But it got me wondering about the whole sect. Are they aligned with the Papacy of Rome? Are they a total breakaway sect or do they have some validity through Apostolic succession? Bishops? Patriarchs? What Liturgy?
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2009, 02:28:49 PM »

Well, you probably are speaking of the Ruthenian Byzantine (Greek Catholic) Church.  The other is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.  In the 1600's the residents of modern day Western Ukraine, Southeastern Poland and Eastern Slovakia were traded to Rome like sheep by the government of the time. 
That's for another thread because this is the liturgy section and you asked about the liturgy.

The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, who are the descendants of people who were forced into the Roman Catholic communion uses a recently modified version of the Pre-Sanctified, St. Basil and St. John C liturgy.  Recently they had acquired a pew book called the green book that contains neutral language and revisions in the rubrics.

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/Publications2.html

There is a link to the texts I speak of.
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2009, 10:58:44 PM »

^I hope our friend on OC.net, Schultz, will address some of those changes in particular on this thread.  I may be mistaken but I think it was this radical shift to the more gender neutral and politically correct language that made him wish to come over to Orthodoxy.  I know he was very much NOT in favor about the new service books published by the Metropolia.
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 11:06:09 PM »

I can point out a few differences here in a bit.  Horizontal/gender neutral language, change in the creed, changes in the wording of the anafora, audible anafora and a few litanies.  So somethings changed and somethings were put back in.  I can speak of these a little more when I get a few moments to do so.
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2009, 01:29:55 AM »

I can point out a few differences here in a bit.  Horizontal/gender neutral language, change in the creed, changes in the wording of the anafora, audible anafora and a few litanies.  So somethings changed and somethings were put back in.  I can speak of these a little more when I get a few moments to do so.
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2009, 02:02:34 AM »

I can point out a few differences here in a bit.  Horizontal/gender neutral language, change in the creed, changes in the wording of the anafora, audible anafora and a few litanies.  So somethings changed and somethings were put back in.  I can speak of these a little more when I get a few moments to do so.
Hurry! Shocked

Google search it.  I provided the link to their new liturgy.  Google for ACROD's liturgy and then compare (American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese).  The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics and the ACROD are cousins.  The ACROD was formed initially by people who had left the Ruthenian Catholics. Hence their traditions are pretty much the same.  However, textually the differences you'd see the most between an online copy of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom from say ROCOR or OCA and the Ruthenians would be the antiphons.  So you could even grab on of those for a side by side. 
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 02:08:22 AM »

O.K. Username, thanks.
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2009, 05:21:07 PM »

You're welcome.  Other than the Creed, I think they took out "for us men and for our salvation" and put "for us and our salvation,"  the other thing that made people mad was instead of "For He/you are a gracious God who loves mankind"  to "God who loves us all."  They threw in Theotokos as well, tossed in the litany for catechumens, I think the petitions before the Octe Nash, but they clipped their short antiphons even shorter.  They also, like I said, went to a totally audible anafora.  They change the "Let us stand aright let us stand in fear so that we may offer the holy anafora in peace" from sacrifice or oblation, can't remember which one they used.  They also changed the music/prostopinije.  They also changed all the texts of the movable propers to "modern" English.  I think they now call for zeon, wheras some priests didn't use it.  They still don't do away with pre-cut particles for liturgy.  I mean, the changes go on. 
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2009, 09:10:42 PM »

For all intents and purposes, the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh (aka the Ruthenian Catholics) use the Liturgy of St. John Chyrsostom, albeit in a very mandated abbreviated form when it is done in English.  Whereas in some parishes, this new mandate improved the liturgy, in others it ended up cutting it back from a form that was, aside from mention of the Pope of Rome, practically identical to that which is celebrated in ACROD and some OCA parishes.  As username! pointed out, there was some translation changes which ruffled more than a few feathers, most notably being the change from "...for us men and our salvation..." to "..for us and our salvation..." in an attempt to use the popular inclusive language, although it was now mandated across the entire Metropolia to not use the filioque in the Creed.  Some changes were for the better (the aforementioned mandate of the use of zeon) while others were, shall we say, quite controversial.

The Metropolitan Cantor Institute also published new settings for the music which some people love and others despise.  Its supporters point to the fact that the Slavonic melodies are more complete and restored (ie closer to the transcriptions in the two seminal prostopinije volumes edited by Boksai and Papp) while its detractors argue that the text has become subservient to the music (a big nono in liturgical music) which has led to inelegant and sometimes clunky hymns. 

As for myself, while I did find the audible anaphora a bit odd (IMHO, it brings the liturgy to a complete stop and ruins the flow, so to speak), I wasn't a strong critic.  In my particular parish, the liturgy didn't change all that much aside from the now audible presbyteral prayers.  I didn't grow up with the music so the change wasn't that harsh for me, but I did think many of its detractors had a point in that some things just didn't need to be changed or the change was just a really bad one. 

The main reason I decided to become Orthodox had more to do with a revelation on my part that I just plain did not accept papal supremacy as defined by Rome and therefore could not in good conscience continue to receive communion in that church.  It is, however, very nice to have weekly Saturday Vespers offered in church.  I do miss the prostopinije and the congregational singing in general, even the "modified" melodies, most of all.  Indeed, the only thing I missed this past Lent (my first as an Orthodox catechumen) was the singing of "Preterpivy" after each service.  I also miss very much many of the people, particular the babas who took me in and taught me what I know of the old language (which I love singing) in my old parish, but know that I've made the correct decision. 
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 09:08:35 PM »

You're welcome.  Other than the Creed, I think they took out "for us men and for our salvation" and put "for us and our salvation,"  the other thing that made people mad was instead of "For He/you are a gracious God who loves mankind"  to "God who loves us all."  They threw in Theotokos as well, tossed in the litany for catechumens, I think the petitions before the Octe Nash, but they clipped their short antiphons even shorter.  They also, like I said, went to a totally audible anafora.  They change the "Let us stand aright let us stand in fear so that we may offer the holy anafora in peace" from sacrifice or oblation, can't remember which one they used.  They also changed the music/prostopinije.  They also changed all the texts of the movable propers to "modern" English.  I think they now call for zeon, wheras some priests didn't use it.  They still don't do away with pre-cut particles for liturgy.  I mean, the changes go on. 

Brothers and Sisters replaces Brethren.

The Aitesis Litany before the Our Father was always there, although not always taken.  In the new books the Little Litanies are suppressed, the Litanies of the Faithful and Catechumens are suppressed, and the first Aitesis Litany is suppressed, although in most parishes this was already the case.

In the old books all the verses of the Antiphons were included although usually only the first verse was taken, but the Third Antiphon was often omitted entirely.  The new books have only the first verse of each Antiphon but the Third must be taken.

It was oblation.

The propers were always in modern English.  They were changed to accomodate the new music.

Zeon is required.

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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 09:19:50 PM »

simplygermain,

I can't account for the weird lady with bad thelogy, I suppose very Church has them.

The Ukrainian, Carpatho Rusyn, Slovak, Hungarian, and Croatian Greek Catholics (as well as ACROD and UOCUSA) use the same basic Liturgies as the Eastern Orthodox but have a unique usage, officially called the Ruthenian Recension, that actually predates the Nikonian reforms so many later accretions found in the Nikonian books are not present in ours.  The troparia at the Epiclesis and at the placing of the commemoration particles into the Chalice come to mind.

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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 10:36:00 PM »

  Indeed, the only thing I missed this past Lent (my first as an Orthodox catechumen) was the singing of "Preterpivy" after each service. 

"Having Suffered" is rumoured to be a Polish Roman Catholic Latinization though....
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2009, 09:47:37 AM »

  Indeed, the only thing I missed this past Lent (my first as an Orthodox catechumen) was the singing of "Preterpivy" after each service. 

"Having Suffered" is rumoured to be a Polish Roman Catholic Latinization though....

It could have been written and introduced by an ultramontane Spaniard who only speaks ecclesiastical Latin in everyday conversation for all I care.  it's one of the most beautiful hymns in the Ruthenian repertoire. Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 01:25:29 AM »

Schultz,

If you like Ruthenian traditions so much then why don't you just go to an ACROD parish?  They have them all over the place it seems (at least around Pennsylvania).
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 01:37:08 AM »

So it is a lie that they changed the Trinitarian formula to be gender neutral?
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 01:56:39 PM »

There is a whole forum devoted to the liturgical reforms at byzcath.org.

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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 02:28:07 PM »

Schultz,

If you like Ruthenian traditions so much then why don't you just go to an ACROD parish?  They have them all over the place it seems (at least around Pennsylvania).


I live in Baltimore.  The closest ACROD parish is quite a distance away (outside of DC) especially considering the local OCA parish is a ten minute car ride/fifteen minute bus ride/forty minute walk from my house. 

The Great Russian traditions are good enough for me and the choir does sing the occasional Carpatho-Rusyn melody now and again.  In fact, the Creed was sung in such a way just this past Sunday. Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 02:30:40 PM »

So it is a lie that they changed the Trinitarian formula to be gender neutral?

YES.  Who on earth told you that?  "Genderwise", all they did was not translate anthropos in the Creed (I'm not agreeing with it, only stating it as a fact) and skirt around translating "mankind" by using the word "all" (eg. instead of "...loves mankind," it's "...loves us all").
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 03:15:11 PM »

So schultzy, what happened to make you want the OCA instead? The one person I met seemed to more than imply a sort of Gnostic philosophy of the natures of Christ being both woman and man. I spoke with her in detail concerning this matter and she used the Theotokos as an example, saying that Mary is the coredemptress in the Salvation of Mankind. Does this sound familiar to you?
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 03:26:17 PM »

Schultz,

If you like Ruthenian traditions so much then why don't you just go to an ACROD parish?  They have them all over the place it seems (at least around Pennsylvania).


I live in Baltimore.  The closest ACROD parish is quite a distance away (outside of DC) especially considering the local OCA parish is a ten minute car ride/fifteen minute bus ride/forty minute walk from my house. 

The Great Russian traditions are good enough for me and the choir does sing the occasional Carpatho-Rusyn melody now and again.  In fact, the Creed was sung in such a way just this past Sunday. Smiley

I didn't realize.  We were just there to see Poe's house and grave, and his death spot.   Ended up with a lovely tour of the "interesting" parts of Baltimore (had a cop pull a gun on me at one point).

Much of the OCA is Carpatho-Rusyn, even a good chunk of the 'Great Russian' parishes.
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 03:49:43 PM »

So schultzy, what happened to make you want the OCA instead? The one person I met -in the Byzantine Catholic Church - seemed to more than imply a sort of Gnostic philosophy of the natures of Christ being both woman and man. I spoke with her in detail concerning this matter and she used the Theotokos as an example, saying that Mary is the coredemptress in the Salvation of Mankind. Does this sound familiar to you?
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 04:03:15 PM »

So schultzy, what happened to make you want the OCA instead? The one person I met seemed to more than imply a sort of Gnostic philosophy of the natures of Christ being both woman and man. I spoke with her in detail concerning this matter and she used the Theotokos as an example, saying that Mary is the coredemptress in the Salvation of Mankind. Does this sound familiar to you?

Theologically, I spoke about my reasons in my first post.

Jurisdiction-wise, I began at the local Antiochan parish simply because it was the closest.  I went there for about five months before giving the OCA parish, which was alot closer than I originally thought, a try.  I simply felt like I fit in better there (and, honestly, the music was more to my liking.  Greek-style chant just doesn't do it for me).  There are people my age and demographic there and the older folk there remind me of the people I grew up with in western PA (indeed, many of them are from there!).  It boils down to a simple matter of personal taste.  Since we moved, I'm even closer to the OCA parish so it's a no-brainer.  There is a GOA parish closer, but I'm happy where I am amongst the Slavs. Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2009, 04:09:33 PM »


The one person I met seemed to more than imply a sort of "Essene" Gnostic philosophy of the natures of Christ being both woman and man. I spoke with her in detail concerning this matter and she used the Theotokos as an example, saying that Mary is the coredemptress in the Salvation of Mankind. Does this sound familiar to you, or does it sound as though she was way off
Please forgive my asking you twice.
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2009, 04:12:43 PM »


The one person I met seemed to more than imply a sort of "Essene" Gnostic philosophy of the natures of Christ being both woman and man. I spoke with her in detail concerning this matter and she used the Theotokos as an example, saying that Mary is the coredemptress in the Salvation of Mankind. Does this sound familiar to you, or does it sound as though she was way off
Please forgive my asking you twice.

My apologies.

I've never come across that in my sojourn in the Catholic church "amongst the people", so to speak.  I've always read about experiences such as yours but in my 33 years as a communicant of the Catholic church, I've never met anyone who spoke like that. 
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2009, 04:25:36 PM »

Thank you Schultz. You've been a great help. I checked out their site and I saw no difference in the teaching or the creed than our own.
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