Original Sin & Baptism (there relationship)

[cristian84]

I would like to have a discussion on the relationship between Original Sin & Baptism from an Orthodox perspective. I am a recent convert to Orthodoxy (and new to the forum) from Roman Catholicism and feel that I have a pretty good handle on the Catholic understanding of Original Sin and Baptism. I would like it if senior members on the forum or those educated on the subject would discuss it from an Orthodox perspective. Here is my understanding of Orthodox belief about Orignal SIn: - That it is not a transmission of guilt, of Adam and Eve's personal sin but its a transmission of our fallen nature ( wounded state, propensity toward sin, inhibiting our fellowship with God,  etc) however  we are not totally depraved. Of Baptism: - That Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, that we are "born again" in baptism, that we die and are reborn into newness of life in Christ, that it is the entry sacrament to belong to Christ and his Church. And IF it can be said that we are cleansed from Original Sin in baptism . It is my understanding that the Fathers taught and believed that you were cleansed of Original Sin in baptism (I guess the real question is what is meant by such a statment). So here are my questions/or points that I would like to have discussed:

1) Do Orthodox have a problem with that phrase "Baptism washes us from Original Sin?

2)Infant baptism is more that just welcoming a child into the church, there are implications that the state of soul has changed, they are born again. How does Original Sin fit in with infant baptism?

3)If Baptism heals your wounded nature and propensity to Sin from a fallen state to a renewed life in Christ, then why do we still die? ( and what role/relationship does Original Sin play in this?)

Im sure this is enough to start the discussion, and that many other questions/answers will be brought up in the course of the dialog, thanks and God Bless!

[ialmisry]

I would like to have a discussion on the relationship between Original Sin & Baptism from an Orthodox perspective. I am a recent convert to Orthodoxy (and new to the forum) from Roman Catholicism and feel that I have a pretty good handle on the Catholic understanding of Original Sin and Baptism. I would like it if senior members on the forum or those educated on the subject would discuss it from an Orthodox perspective. Here is my understanding of Orthodox belief about Orignal SIn: - That it is not a transmission of guilt, of Adam and Eve's personal sin but its a transmission of our fallen nature ( wounded state, propensity toward sin, inhibiting our fellowship with God,  etc) however  we are not totally depraved. Of Baptism: - That Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, that we are "born again" in baptism, that we die and are reborn into newness of life in Christ, that it is the entry sacrament to belong to Christ and his Church. And IF it can be said that we are cleansed from Original Sin in baptism . It is my understanding that the Fathers taught and believed that you were cleansed of Original Sin in baptism (I guess the real question is what is meant by such a statment). So here are my questions/or points that I would like to have discussed:

1) Do Orthodox have a problem with that phrase "Baptism washes us from Original Sin?

2)Infant baptism is more that just welcoming a child into the church, there are implications that the state of soul has changed, they are born again. How does Original Sin fit in with infant baptism?

3)If Baptism heals your wounded nature and propensity to Sin from a fallen state to a renewed life in Christ, then why do we still die? ( and what role/relationship does Original Sin play in this?)

Im sure this is enough to start the discussion, and that many other questions/answers will be brought up in the course of the dialog, thanks and God Bless!

LOL.  You got that right.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21719.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3237.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20612.0.html

for starters.

1) not really, sort of like Achilles' mother dipping him in the Styx made him invulnerable (except the heel she held him from).
2) one is born to die, and in baptism one dies and is reborn to live.
3) in baptism we are united to Christ, but we do not become Christ in the sense that we do not become God as He is God.  The icon of the Resurrection is the New Adam grabbing the Old Adam: we come into union with the New, but are not cut off from the Old, because that would not only mean that we left human nature, corrupted by history but not by essence, but also it would be something that Christ did not do in the Incarnation.  Only if we abolished the autonomy of the human person, as the IC does, could baptism mean we would not have to die as Christ died, He for us, us for our own sins.

[witega]

3)If Baptism heals your wounded nature and propensity to Sin from a fallen state to a renewed life in Christ, then why do we still die? ( and what role/relationship does Original Sin play in this?)

Because while baptism 'cures' an individual's 'original sin' in that it unites us to Christ, destroying the wall of separation which came in through Adam's sin, the individual still lives in the fallen world--the same reason that baptized infants eventually go on to sin even though their separation from the divine was resolved through baptism. Baptism works on the individual, but we are not living in perfect Eden (as Adam and Eve were when they chose their sin). The individual effects are cured but the fallen world continues to work to draw us away from that wholeness

[AlexanderOfBergamo]

Because while baptism 'cures' an individual's 'original sin' in that it unites us to Christ, destroying the wall of separation which came in through Adam's sin, the individual still lives in the fallen world--the same reason that baptized infants eventually go on to sin even though their separation from the divine was resolved through baptism. Baptism works on the individual, but we are not living in perfect Eden (as Adam and Eve were when they chose their sin). The individual effects are cured but the fallen world continues to work to draw us away from that wholeness

Correct. We also need the Kingdom of Heaven to be fulfilled to have our bodies resurrected in immortality at Christ's return and judgment... This is one of the points the Eastern Fathers made at the fake Council of Florence, stating initially (st. Mark of Ephesus in primis) that in the intermediate state between personal and universal judgments the soul is in hades, waiting for the resurrection, and in a condition of "less perfect bliss" then that of the resurrected ones: not because the soul is "less perfect" in the saints in heaven and in the saints after resurrection; but because after the Universal Judgment we will be made perfect *not only* in the soul but *also* in the flesh. So, the spiritual benefits of Divine Grace can be sensed by the departed immediately after being introduced to heavenly bliss; yet the "deification" (theopoiesis) of the full human nature will come after the last enemy, Death, will be defeated.

"But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep: For because of a man came death, and because of a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But every one in his own order: the firstfruits Christ, then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming. Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet." (1 Corinthians 15:21 and following)

In Christ,   Alex

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